2 Cent Dad Podcast: Recent Episodes
Mike Sudyk
Brent Beshore runs a PE firm in Columbia Missouri named Permanent Equity with 9 portfolio companies and a current capital base in excess of $300 million. Brent is also a father and also an ex-atheist turned Christ follower.
Where To Find Brent
- Brent's Twitter
- Brent's LinkedIn
- Permanent Equity website
Coach Lantz Howard joins the podcast.
https://www.lantzhoward.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lantzhoward/
It's all about attachment. At least that's what Adam Lane Smith would say, who is a master psychologist, retired psychotherapist, and now an attachment specialist. He joins the 2 Cent Dad podcast today to talk about how a lot of issues that we face in our marriages, in our relationships, and even with our kids stem from our own attachment issues, often attachment issues that have come up from our childhood. And so he hits on many important things and, uh, actually efficient advice about how we can go about fixing our attachment issues, but also not creating attachment issues with our kids.
Where to Find Adam
Adam Lane Smith on Instagram
Adam Lane Smith on Twitter
Adam Lane Smith on TikTok
Adam Lane Smith's Website
You probably contribute to a 401K or an IRA or some other investment account to save for your retirement. That's normal. Well, today's guest, Nate Dean, is gonna talk about a concept called the infinite banking concept, and it flips things kind of on its head. When you talk about retirement, when you talk about saving, when you talk about financing, vehicles, cars, that sort of thing, and super interesting concept that he talks about, and I think we'll find a lot of value in as you think about retirement, especially as you think about how to prepare yourself and your family for your generation and the next generation.
Where To Find Nate:Nate on Twitter
Personal Website
Unlimited Life Concepts on Instagram
Unlimited Life Concepts Website
Mentions in this episodeBecoming Your Own Banker by Nelson Nash
Life, Success, and Legacy podcast
When you think about families, do you think about a nest? Or do you think about a multi-generational family that you're contributing to a legacy? Most Western families think about a nest and they think about getting the kids out of the nest. My guest today, Jeremy Pryor, who runs familyteams.com really flips that on its head and instead talks about a multi-generational family and how we should view families differently, and how the western view of family has really messed up so many fundamental things in how we raise our kids, how we talk about family, and how we create multi-generational families that love each other and actually inves
Where To Find Jeremy
- Jeremy on Facebook
- Jeremy on Twitter
- Jeremy on LinkedIn
- Family Teams Website
- iTunes podcast
Nathan is the founder of HealthBar (https://healthbar.com/) and is working to provide an alternative to the current system by streamlining it and removing waste in the system.
Where To Find Nathan
- Nathan Baar on LinkedIn
- Health Bar Website
Classical Education, what is it? Maybe you have heard some about it or you have been following the complete disruption of the education system in the USA. I talk with Jeremy Tate, the founder of CLT about the history of education and what is happening in K-12 as well as higher ed right now.
Where To Find Jeremy
- Jeremy on Twitter
- CLT Website
- Anchored podcast
Links Mention
- Battle for the American Mind (book) (Amazon link)
- Closing of the American Mind (book) (Amazon link)
Tex joins us to talk about re-igniting his marriage through a return to more "traditional" roles. Hitting on the "dom/sub" relationship he has with his wife and his journey to help young men lead better.
Where to find Tex?
- Twitter https://twitter.com/TexasDom1
- Blog Link https://texasdom.com/bio/
Transcription below (May contain typos...):
Mike: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] today we got texts on the show. Texas is from Texas, he's an author. Um, and he writes a lot about masculinity and about, um, I think the Renaissance of, uh, or the resurgence of masculinity that we're seeing in the world today.
Um, in some of these circles, you know, it's kind of under the, the mainstream radar, but it's, it's a response to what's going on and, and texts. I love. The stuff that you put out and I love your story and I'm excited to have you share it with my audience, man.
Tex: [00:00:28] Well, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.
Yeah,
Mike: [00:00:31] well, um, let's get into, uh, you know, one of the things I like to start sometimes when my podcast with interview with is, um, I'm curious because this is a fatherhood podcast. If a young young man came to you was married having their first kid and they said texts. I need some advice. I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
My wife is pregnant. What are some advice you can give me being a new dad?
Tex: [00:00:58] Be patient, um, [00:01:00] be, be, be loving and, um, realize there's no owner's manual and you're going to screw some stuff up and you're going to figure it out along the way. By the time you get to kid two and three and four, it's going to be so much easier.
And, um, you know, don't, don't worry about the fact that you think you can't afford a baby or a second or third. Um, no one can, so we just figure it out, you know, that's how we do it. And you realized that, um, when your wife does have this baby, she's going to go through some hormonal changes, right. As you know, as you're leading up to it during, and then right after, and she is going to be out of her mind and some things, and you're going to look at her and go, who is this woman sometimes.
Right. And, but that's going to happen. I mean, it happens to most people. And so, you know, hopefully you can avoid the whole post postpartum depression and all that stuff. Just be, just be kind. Be loving and, uh, and not saying be your slave. I'm not saying, you know, be her fetching boy, I'm just saying no, that her emotions are going to be all over the map [00:02:00] and it's up to you to be calm and to just be a little stoic and just love her when she needs to be loved.
Yeah.
Mike: [00:02:09] The perspective glasses you got to put on? I think I'm finally learning that after we were having our fifth, you know, pretty soon. And it's like, man, I'm finally learning that lesson. Okay. She's probably of
Tex: [00:02:19] five kids, man. Can't imagine five kids. Good Lord. I got three grandsons when they come down to visit twice at the beach this summer and.
After about where they were like eight days, both times. Right. And I'm like, Ooh, man, these guys are work. I forgot how much work this was. And they were like 12, 10 and seven. So they're, they're just constantly, even their motors are running the whole time. Right. So, uh, yeah, I realized I, that was the only thing I regret.
I didn't have enough kids, man. I only had, we stopped at two and I wish we'd had more. Now I look back at that and go, I, that was, uh, and, and what was it? It was, you know, stressful. Yeah, we were broke. We were poor. We were broke. And I managed to convince myself that having [00:03:00] more kids was a really, really bad idea.
And my wife and I were both in agreement of that. We're like, yeah, we're, we're done. I mean, yeah, she wasn't even 30. When she had our second kid, we could have had plenty of time to have, you know, at least one or two more. So
Mike: [00:03:13] that is funny that you, you rarely hear people say they, you hear people often say they wish they had more.
Not that they had too many, you know, it's often that
Tex: [00:03:24] it depends on if you got that one. That's totally screw up at age 40. Oh yeah. I wish I hadn't had that one. Oh, no, they don't say that. They don't say that they think that, but they don't say that. They'll say it. Somebody said the other day, um, one of my friends online.
So it's something about how amazing it was to be able to, uh, use your phone, to text message money to your kids. And I replied back. Yeah, well not when they're 36. No, that's not cool. That's right.
Mike: [00:03:54] They know it's just a text message away so they can just text you for it.
Tex: [00:03:58] That's it never make it [00:04:00] to you. I'm writing
Mike: [00:04:02] though.
It's funny. You talk about, um, the stress of having young kids and, and, and even just the perspective of having a pregnant wife and keeping that in perspective. And that's, that's a huge lesson. I don't stress that enough with friends that are having kids later than me, but, um, Just the energy level. I mean, you sounded like my dad, when you were saying about being tired, they watch the kids for like a weekend might ask, like, I'm, I'm beat, man.
I'm like, you had him for like two days.
Tex: [00:04:27] Good luck.
Mike: [00:04:27] You know?
Tex: [00:04:29] So the third part of that is we feed them. We don't probably don't feed them the right stuff. We'll give them way too many. Cookies and sugar and we suffer the consequences of that, but I'm just glad I had them when it w you know, my daughter ended up having kids when she did, because I'm only 59.
Right. I can still go do stuff, go fishing with a run on the beach with them, that kind of thing. You know, I'm not 80 something into rolling out the side of my mouth and telling them to go away, you know? And that's, that's, that's a blessing. That's the problem I see with these guys. Oh, I'm going to wait until I'm 50 to have kids.
Really. You could be 70 when they get out of it, you know, when they go into college or [00:05:00] something, you know, you don't really want that. I mean, is that really what you're after?
Mike: [00:05:03] Yeah. Yeah. Well, Hey, I know you, um, you have blog, right? You talk about some of these topics, but one of them stems around your journey with, um, your in, in your marriage, where you had a, it sounded like, you know, a transformational moment where you embraced a dominant, submissive, um, you know, lifestyle.
And to me that, the interesting thing about me about that with me was that, um, It is conveyed. And I think a negative light or a, not an appropriate light, you know, in, you know, 50 shades of gray or whatever you want to call it. That's out there in the mainstream. That's totally different, but I'm a, I'm a believer.
So, you know, in terms of being a view in the demand is the head of the house and, and some of the traditional values, there's so much wisdom there that me and my wife had that. You know, relationship and that those roles. And what was interesting to me was some of the stories you hear from guys and from fathers and husbands, that when their [00:06:00] kids move out of the house, that the marriage kind of degrades because they were a child centered marriage and the roles have kind of shifted into weird spots so that they can't, you know, adapt.
And, and I don't know if that's kind of how, how it was for you, but that's one thing I'm very cognizant of and, and, um, You don't mind. I talked to my wife and I talk about that a lot because we don't want it to arrive there. Um, I didn't know if you could just tell story a little bit.
Tex: [00:06:23] Absolutely.
Absolutely. I will say that, um, the last thing you want to be as another kid and your wife's household as a man, you want to lead you, there could only be one leader. Everyone else has to follow that person. That's the only way, you know, people talk about having these eight marriage equality. Oh, we do this together and we do that together.
We make them. Yeah, well that does, that also kills off the sexual spark of attraction. Um, when men aren't being men and women, aren't being women and they're all trying to be equal and they're all trying to be trans, not trans, but, um, um, I don't know what you call it. Everybody's like, like this metro-sexual thing going on, you know?
[00:07:00] Uh, and so what our marriage, what we found was that, um, You know, the other kids left, but even before then we were, you know, my son was still in like high school and stuff. Things were just going bad and I was big, giant fat guy at the time. And, uh, and she, and she, she just, she was a little chunky too. You know, we were a lot of stress.
We were in business together. I mean, I had a regular full-time job, but we also had a, um, a real estate company. And so I did a lot of the behind the scenes stuff, the bookkeeping and things like that, because that's a gift that God's given me. And at, at some point in time, this was really, and truly her company, she was running it.
So like, I would be up there and she would be issuing me orders, basically do this, do that and do this. And it was, it was okay at first. And then it just started to grate on me after a while because it just, you know, we'd go home and she, she kept it up at home and all of a sudden. It was like, I was, you know, like, um, subservient to her and I was just, this is just not who the hell I am.
And so I was pushing back in my own way and she was pushing back in her way [00:08:00] because, you know, she'd gotten used to that dynamic. And, and even though it was making her miserable as well. So w we Mo we never really talked about using the D word, the word divorce in our marriage. We agreed to that early on that we would just call it the D word, but we would avoid it at all costs because we didn't feel like that was a good idea.
And we wanted to make sure we had, um, Our vows were commitments and that type of thing, but there was a point where we were like, you know, we did everything. We built a new, big house. We did all these things, trying to put band-aids on a broken relationship where you're only having sex once a month or maybe once every other month.
And you know, and it's not even great at that. It's, um, You know, 20 minutes of foreplay, which is begging at that point, you know, it was just terrible. It was just an awful lot. And there's so many men out there that are living this life right now. And if you are, I'm telling you, there's a better way and you, but you don't have to leave your wife to get there.
And so we were both searching and looking through the internet and trying to figure out what was going on. And ironically [00:09:00] enough, we both had gone back and looked at some, some dating sites for older people. And we were in our early, late forties, early fifties at the time. And man, what a nightmare. Out there.
If you're, if you're divorced and, you know, 50 years old and looking at it and looking at women out there, and I'm sure they feel the same way, but I mean, everybody there has been in through three or four damaged relationships and everything else, you just look at them and go, Jesus Christ. I don't want anything to do with that.
So we both never stopped loving each other. We both really wanted everything to work. Um, we didn't know how, and we were broke and we didn't, neither one of us knew how to fix it. And when she, during her searching, she came up with, um, this Christian women's submissive site and it turns out there was a short term TV show.
It only lasted a couple of episodes before the executives yanked it off the air, or the people got, you know, the Karen's of the world got so angry that they made it go away. Um, But at the end of the day, she, she realized she came to me and she said, I think I'm submissive. We were driving to the airport and I was gonna pop her on an airplane and go see the grandkids for 10 days.
And I was just thinking to myself, Oh God, I [00:10:00] get to go home and get drunk and hang out and just do nothing and not have to listen to her bitch about stuff. And this was going to be a great vacation, get her out of here, you know? And on the way she was like, Hey, I need to talk about something. I'm thinking, okay, here we go.
This is going to be the separation. Right. We're going to start with this 10 days, her seeing the kids and. It turned out. She's like, I think I'm a submissive. And I want to know if you can be my dominant. And I was about drove off the side of the road, you know, I was thinking it was just, she basically threw me a lifeline.
Right. She threw that life ring that you see proverbial life ring on the ship. And I'm in the water drown and I grabbed it. I'm like, Oh, hell yeah, sure. I had no idea what I was agreeing to. Right. I mean, I had read part of 50 shades of gray because I was pretty sure that, um, I was fixing to be single again.
And I read like first half of the book on my iPad, so nobody would know what I was reading. And I'm thinking there's millions of women buying this book. It's like the number one selling paperback book of all time. And it's like, there's millions of women buying this. They're all [00:11:00] rubbing one out at night, reading this thing.
I want to know why. Right. And so I may be back in the game here. And I knew enough about that. And, and, and that's really just not the lifestyle. And so we, we both did our research for 10 days or so. We got back together and we, you started making magic again with each other, and she realized that she needed let me lead.
And I realized that I needed to quit asking her questions about stupid stuff, getting her opinion, trying to seek her approval and all the other stupid things that I was doing in life at that point. And I just need to start making decisions. And as I say, man, and the heck up and just getting the job done.
And she bit her head to bite her tongue a few times along the way, you know, but we made it work and we still live that lifestyle today. And I, and I know I'm rambling here, but you brought up 50 shades early on and that just such a distorted view of what this is. Yes. DNS are two letters in the words, in the, in the accurate Nam BDSM.
And it gets a pretty bad label. Yeah. It's how your great grandparents used to live, man, man, in charge, the women followed and didn't really [00:12:00] questioned. Everybody had their roles. I got the jobs done and they loved each other. And there was just this polarity, there was masculine men and feminine women, and that's just like a magnet man.
When you take two poles of a magnet that are identical and you push. Put them together, they push away. But when you flip it around and you put them together, they latch onto each other and that's, that's the spark that's the, the magnetism of sexual energy is having that, that polarity and you got to have it.
And once we found that and got that back in our lives, it's just steam to go crazy. The issue with the 50 shades, it gives everybody such a bad impression, constitutes all screwed up and it is Schick porn. I mean, basically, you know, that's not how you live your life, but if you people will call it head of household or call it in a fifties lifestyle that they'll, they'll sugarcoat it and call it other names.
But it's truly, it's a Dom sub life. And there's a lot of men that I know that live lead a Dom sub life with their wives. And they don't know what to call it. It's just who they are. It's just how they live. Right. So how my dad lived, so, you know, great grandparents used to live type of thing. So, uh, that's how we, that's how we [00:13:00] saved ourselves, but it was just the secret was we never really stopped loving each other.
We never gave up on each other. Uh, we just had to figure out a different, different strategy to go about making it work.
Mike: [00:13:09] Yeah. And I think that the interesting thing that, um, and now I stumbled across you on the internet was going to these a lot of guys talking about. Masculinity. Um, and I originally start, you start following these guys and then they become preaching out.
I'll like pick up artists and all this stuff, and I'm like, that's almost taken it too far. And it is taking that too far. I think even though you can use maybe some of those things with your wife, you know, to, to kind of spark up the relationship, but. Interesting is that you talked, we started this conversation around, what advice would you give a new father?
And you said be patient and loving with your wife. That's that's the magic that, that goes along with that dominant. I mean, that's kind of what I'm hearing you say. It's like being the head of the household. You can't get rid of that. It's the salt in the dominant, you know, leadership, um, component is you have to have that.
If you're just barking orders all, all time. That's, that's [00:14:00] not, that's not what you're taught about either.
Tex: [00:14:01] There's a difference between being dominant and domineering. And we say that all the time, right? You can't be a jerk. You know, you can be a benevolent dictator. Which you can't be a Dick, you have no, no one wants to be with a man that's, you know, verbally abusive and that type of thing.
Um, but yeah, there's a book out called love and respect. A lot of, uh, pastors will use, um, premarital counseling and stuff. The basic premise is men want to be respected. Women want to be loved, you know, men want to be loved. Yeah, maybe so, so, but more importantly, they want their woman to respect him. And that woman wants to feel absolutely love.
And so when you're giving her absolute love, um, she responds to it, you know? And then if you get in this negative spiral where both people were like, yeah, you know, I, I respect her. I love her more. She showed me some respect and she's over there golf. He was one such a big piece of crap. I would probably respect him more and all that kind of stuff.
And so there, no one puts the brakes on. And so one, person's got to say, okay, [00:15:00] stop. I'm going to love her, whether I think she deserves it or not, or she has to, she's going to say, I'm going to show him some respect, even though I think he doesn't deserve it. And pretty soon that negative spiral, it starts to go the other way and it starts to rise.
And I think that's the secret. I think that's the secret sauce in all of this. Somebody has to step up and say it enough. What we're doing, ain't working.
Mike: [00:15:19] What do you think that is from, uh, from, uh, from the, from the man's perspective? Um, is it that they don't respect themselves that they don't, they don't, you know, that's what they're looking for, the respect from their wife, or, you know, they're not, not, I shouldn't say that that they're, that they're not loving their wife, you know, or like what's the barrier what's, what's at play there.
That's preventing them and, and that's making them. You know, be more submissive or whatever you want to say. You know,
Tex: [00:15:47] I think that, um, men want to be respected, but they're not doing their jobs. And I was sitting on the couch all day Sunday and watching three, three NFL games in a row right there. Not getting anything done at the house or [00:16:00] there, you know, I'm pretty soon the wife starts nagging, you know, and then that just pisses everybody off.
Right. And I think guys just, they take their foot off the gas, they think, okay, well, I got married to this, this beautiful woman and I, you know, or they'll, they'll stay stupid shit like, Oh yeah. You know, she's the best thing that ever happened to me. And you know, if mama ain't happy, nobody's happy and they start going down that line and all this stuff.
But to take their foot off the gas and they quit trying. They just quit trying, man. It's like, I got the prize, man. I'm done now. That's when the work starts, you get married, that's when it starts. And you know, women are the same way, right? Oh, well, I don't particularly like this about him, but once I'm married to him, I'll change him.
Yeah. Right. They're all convinced they can do that because her mama convention, they could do that. And mama didn't do a good job of doing that for her daddy, but they, they, they tried anyway, you know, so.
Mike: [00:16:49] So, what are some of the things you see? Um, you know, I know you're, you're part of the fraternity of excellence, um, with Zach small and I had him on recently.
Um, tell me a little bit more about [00:17:00] that and what you're seeing with some of the guys that joined that and the transformations, and some of the, maybe a little bit more of those things that the bad habits or, or bad mental States and roles they've slipped into that they're breaking free from as a result of being part of that community.
Tex: [00:17:17] Yeah, I shared this community was with a young man I'd recently met and suggested that he look into it and he emailed me back and he was like, This is tragic that we even have to have communities like this. He says trash that we fall into the point to where just being a man is so shunned and, and, and, and being a proper man is not even a goal anymore for a lot of people.
And so, you know, that was his take when he first and he just joined. Right. But that was his first take when he looked at, at the quote unquote sales page, you know, when you go and pull it out. Yeah. But you know, it's once a, guy's all over the country getting together. We've been doing this for three years now.
And, uh, there is a paywall there because it keeps the riffraff out, call it what it is, guys that aren't serious about stuff. [00:18:00] And we're all working towards being better us. And everybody may have different skillsets. I mean, I think might be the whole Dom sub thing or my thing might just be that I'm grandpa and I've lived.
I haven't, you know, Darwin hadn't. Killed me yet. And I'm still offering old, old man advice, you know, and other guys are like super into finances or crypto or, and other guys are super into, you know, strength, training and running marathons or whatever it is that they do that they're, they Excel at it. We just bring, everybody brings these, these guests together and we discuss stuff and we discuss stuff a lot.
And we have, um, we have an online chat program that we keep track of during the day. And we also do, uh, you know, video conferencing calls during the week. And I mean, there might be, I look at my screen now it's just you and me. Right. But, but during the foe chat, there's like 40 or 50 little, it looks like the Brady bunch, times 50, you know, it it's like all these different guys that at some point I get this big 27 inch iMac.
Right. I have to go to a second screen to see the rest of the guy. Sometimes there's so many of them on there and, and [00:19:00] we're, you know, sometimes they're subjects that we're, we're tackling a certain subject one night or sometimes it's just an open chat Sunday morning coffee and just. How's it going, what you got planned for the week kind of thing.
And so there's fatherhood zooms that take place every Thursday night. There's a, there's a relationship zoom that takes place every other Monday. That type of thing. I mean, so there's always something going on during the week and you don't have to do it all, but when you get that many guys coming together and they're all pursuing excellence of some sort, um, if you're not.
You're no longer going to pay that monthly fee to be there because it's a harsh mirror to look into. Right. And so guys weed themselves out pretty quick. They're like, I can't keep up and it's not that you have to have to do anything. This is the, you know, step a, B and C and you have to follow this. No, no, no, no.
It's not like that at all. You just have to have some goals to improve something in your world, because trust me, we all have things we got to get better at. And so every guy in there is taking things on there's some accountability, there's the list, their goals out. We'll talk about what they're working on, that [00:20:00] type of thing.
But if a guy is talking about the same exact thing he's working on and he hadn't made any progress in a year, He's going to get called out on that kind of thing, right? Yeah. I mean, this was, this is accountability and brotherhood, but the brotherhood is strong and, and a lot of us don't have that locally.
We don't have those men locally mentors, or just buddies that we can hang out with and, and, and talk about masculinity and talk about, you know, and we're not just sitting here, Raul RIA men. It's not that, it's just, it's just how to be a man. What's it like to be a man these days, when you know, you're raised and you go through a feminine school system where all your teachers have been indoctrinated to the whole equality program and basically young men that show any source of energy whatsoever, get labeled, add ADHD, and they try to give them Ritalin and everything else.
Try to calm them down when they're just being the young men. So they want our, are, they want our girls to be boys and our boys to be girls. So that we get that metro-sexual thing going on in the future. And so that's what we're fighting. We're fighting that. And how do you raise your kids in this world?
[00:21:00] This world of, of COVID and homeschooled for three days a week and at school for two days a week. And you know, I mean, how do you do all that? And I think the blessing is God, I wish I'd had the internet man 30 years ago. I mean, I wish I'd had this right. I did. I had nothing. I was flying blind, man. When my dad died, that was it.
I had no mentors. And I had nobody to bounce stuff off of. I mean, you guys that are younger, have no idea how blessed you are. I mean, you really don't, I'm not, I'm not saying, you know, you know, shame on you for not being aware. It's just, it's just count your blessings because, um, With big tech censorship.
You never know who's going to get knocked out next and just count your blessings that you've got. You've got resources out there and there's a lot of free stuff, man. There's free videos out there, all over, all over YouTube and all this stuff, you know, you don't have to pay money to be part of a group, but if you're looking for a solid group of brotherhood, you know, or a group of brothers, you know, and then we do things live and in person, we actually meet up and go do stuff.
We had a trip last February, um, [00:22:00] and, um, Camping trip and canoeing and that kind of thing. And we had rains come in and the river swoll and we got, we got trapped and we had to take canoes back to the main place to get food and ice and water and canoed back out to our little Island that we were now on. I mean, it was just doing, just doing dude stuff.
Right. Just hanging out, man, just talking, talking to, you know, smoking cigars and smoking pipes and chewing the breeze and, and just, uh, having, having guys around again.
Mike: [00:22:26] Yeah, no, that's awesome. I think that's very much needed. I think, um, It's very, very much missing in the world today, you know, and, and for whatever reason, I mean, there's more, you talked about indoctrination, but there's also, um, the curse of kind of the internet too, is like, it's, it's distracted us, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's gotten us off our game, we're distracted and just wanting to entertain ourselves.
And, um, I think that's, that's a serious issue as well. That kind of plays into all that, you know,
Tex: [00:22:53] Yeah. I've been told him to watch this movie called a social dilemma.
Mike: [00:22:56] Yeah, I haven't watched it yet. I've heard about it.
Tex: [00:22:58] I haven't, I, you know what, I'm, I'm [00:23:00] avoiding it because I'm a Twitter junkie. And I think if I watched that film, I'm probably won't have any excuse to not slow down drastically.
Yeah. So, um, I'm actually affording it, but, uh, nah, man, I'll tell you, what did you play any sports in school when you grew up?
Mike: [00:23:16] I was a swimmer. Yeah.
Tex: [00:23:18] There you go. So you have a swim team, so you knew what it was like to be around the other guys in the locker room mentality and the cutting up and the BS and all that stuff.
And then we leave that we either did it in high school only, or maybe high school. We were blessed enough to be able to play sports in college or whatever, but then it's gone. You don't have that comradery anymore. And that's what we're all there for. We don't realize it at the time the competition was, was great.
It was fun and all that, but at the same time, the comradery kept you coming back for more because you didn't want to let those guys down. You don't want to be the weakest link on the team. Yeah. The, you know, you wanted to have that
Mike: [00:23:51] th the pursuit of excellence, because there's, there's a natural measuring up with other people on the team, but.
Inside of a unified vision, [00:24:00] right? It's not, you're not competing directly with them per se. You're like, Hey, we want to win. We want to do this together. But you're like, Hey, this guy's going a little faster than me. I kind of want to beat him. You know? It's like, you're, you're, you're, you're kind of sizing each other up and you're, you're vying for like the top spot in a healthy way.
That is you can't recreate it really easily. You know, post, you know, act, you know, athletics in high school or college
Tex: [00:24:23] for life, right? There's life is competitive. Starting a business is competitive, right? You, you, you, you're not going to stick a hose down somebody else's mouth to drown it, but you're going to try to figure out how you can do better than them.
Right? You're going to, how you can make, make your own Mark in this world and do, and do a better thing. And I think that's that pursuit of excellence is what. That's the whole fraternity of excellence and there's other, other online men's communities out there that are doing the same thing. You know, they're not, this was not the only one, but we're all doing that same thing where we're no longer accepting mediocrity.
Mike: [00:24:53] Yeah,
Tex: [00:24:55] no, well
Mike: [00:24:56] text, thanks for being on, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate your
Tex: [00:24:58] time. [00:25:00] Well, I do. I could talk for hours on this. Yeah, that's a curse, man. I just, I get to talking so much and I get to ramble on so much, but, uh, yeah, there's a whole stuff out there. I mean, if you want, I've started, I did a YouTube.
To do a YouTube thing. If you want to come check out some videos that I do on that, some of them are just rants. Some of them are just old man with some stuff, talking about improvement, things like that. And that's on YouTube. I just do a search for Texas Dom to EAX S, D O M. And I'm all over the place I'm on Twitter and all that kind of stuff.
Stuff.
Mike: [00:25:30] Yeah. Yeah. So for people that are just listening, you know, Google, Texas, Dom on, on Twitter, and then also on YouTube, but we'll link all of it in the show notes too. We'll link to your YouTube channel and, and. And Twitter handle and your blog and everything. So
Tex: [00:25:45] I enjoyed being here. Like I said, fatherhood is an exciting time and I think you get, you get one shot at it, right?
You don't get multiple shots at being a desk. Well, it's a swipe like greener. Grandpa's so nice because you get a second shot at it. That's why all of a sudden, when grandkids show [00:26:00] up in your life, your kids become way less important, right? You start focusing on the, on the grandkids, but, um, you know, do it right the first time don't have a lot of regrets and there's so many resources out there, like the 2 cent dad podcast and everything else.
You've got all those resources. There's no reason not to take up, not to at least educate yourself and ask for help when you need help, don't be, don't be shy. There's help out there. Everybody's waiting to throw you a rope. All you gotta do is climb.
Mike: [00:26:23] Awesome. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks. Thanks.
"In other discipline, at some point you have someone working with you to take you to the next level. Every single professional athlete has a coach because they reached the limit of what they can do on their own." -Ryan Vaughn
If one of your employees or team members came to you and said they were feeling overwhelmed and overworked, needing a break, what would you do? Like any great leader you would listen to what they were going through and likely give them the time they needed to sort things out, and get back on track mentally. The issue as leaders is that we rarely do this for ourselves, and we should. Most leaders are burnt out on some level, and few invest in themselves in a way that gets them back to full speed.
Today's guest, Ryan Vaughn, talks about the burnout he experienced in his startup (VNN) and how he came to grips with it. He now helps founders that are dealing with similar issues in their own company.
Where to find Ryan:
- Twitter https://twitter.com/RyanHVaughn
- Blog http://ryanhvaughn.com/
- LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanhvaughn/
Transcription below (may contain typos...):
Ryan: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] I was swimming in the water to such a degree that I didn't realize that I was in the water.
Right. I just, I didn't realize that I was, I was. Playing such a role that it, that I actually was, I felt like this was just what you had to do.
Mike: [00:00:13] What would you do if one of your employees or one of your team members came to you and said they were stressed out, they were feeling overwhelmed. They felt like that was inhibiting their ability to do their job. Well, if you're actually a good leader, you would first listen to what they're going through and, and what that means for them. But then second, you would probably be pretty gracious with letting them have some time off to sort through some of the things so that they can come back to their a hundred percent capacity or potential.
And oftentimes as leaders, we see this with our direct reports or people in our team. But we don't extend that same grace to ourselves. We don't allow ourselves [00:01:00] to. Heal or to address those personal issues that were maybe experiencing when it comes to feeling overwhelmed or burnout. Um, as some might call it.
Well, that's exactly what I hit on today with Ryan Vaughn and the conversation we had about his startup and, and the journey over almost a decade, uh, of, you know, building a company and then dealing with burnout and trying to sort that out and. And now he helps founders do that and it helps founders, you know, sort out.
You know, levels of burnout and how to recover and return with their best, um, efforts for their business. So let's happen to interview with ryan
all right today on the podcast. I have Ryan Vaughn. Who's the founder of varsity news network. He is a recovering founder, I think is maybe the term that he would use, but, um, very successful startup here in grand Rapids, Michigan.
He's also a father. Um, welcome to the show, Ryan.
Ryan: [00:01:58] Thank you. Thanks for having me on Mike. It's [00:02:00] good to be here.
Mike: [00:02:01] Yeah, I, um, you know, obviously you and I have, um, met previously, uh, which is different from some guests that I have on, you know, I haven't met them and haven't had a personal relationship with them, but you started varsity news network, um, here in grand Rapids.
Um, Which is a tech startup and, you know, your journey in that is what I really want to hear and,
Ryan: [00:02:22] and unpack, because I
Mike: [00:02:23] think it's a, probably a familiar story for a lot of startup founders that, um, you know, go through this rush of the fundraising and then they get to a point where maybe they get burned out.
And, um, by me, they don't even know that they're burned out and then. In the midst of that, they're trying to be a dad. And that's where this podcast is really meant to, to talk about as well. So I was wondering if you could just start at the beginning, tell me a little bit about, um, how varsity news network came to be
Ryan: [00:02:51] and a little bit of that story and the origin.
Yeah. Um, yeah, so [00:03:00] I, I, uh, didn't have any sort of business background. Uh, you know, I, I got my degree in creative writing and was a fine arts kid for, you know, throughout most of my life. Although I did play sports wizard, which was maybe a little bit of a contradiction. Um, and, and started, uh, you know, after school I was working at a car dealership and I was the director of e-commerce at the car dealership, which was a made up title that basically meant that they didn't have a website.
And I was the guy who was going to do that. And, uh, and you know, it was a way for me to have a title that I liked this post and. In the midst of doing that, I started, uh, a, uh, blog, which became something became like a pretty successful blog called West Michigan all-star and convinced my boss to pay for it, uh, through sponsorship.
And basically instead of paying me money where he allowed me to do was to, uh, go to [00:04:00] sports, uh, go to high school sports events and write about it at work. And so at that time, I was like the. Probably the country's only, um, gainfully employed sports writer at a car dealership. Uh, and it was, you know, it was an interesting ride that was around 2008.
So then the whole market took a crap, um, in the, uh, in the, um, you know, in the auto industry. So I got a chance to see that, and that was interesting. And, and, you know, throughout that whole period of time, I was still, um, Covering sports. You know, I, uh, went back to school and, uh, got my master's at that point.
And, um, and was working at the center for entrepreneurship at grand Valley. And so it got sort of an introduction to, you know, what building things like blogs and business could be, uh, through that and kind of got introduced to the scene. And this was maybe 2000 and 2009, maybe. Um, And, uh, [00:05:00] and I remember I was, I had the idea for Vinn while I was covering high school sports for West Michigan all-star.
And because I was putting me in the 10 people or so, who were working at West Michigan, all-star were putting so much time into covering sports and we had just had to cover, uh, you know, football and basketball, disproportionally to everything else, just because that's where the interest was. We, um, You know, it, it was obvious to me that like, well, there should just be a platform where schools can do their own coverage.
And that was the birth of Vienna. And I remember when I first had that idea, I held onto it. So tightly, it was going to be my bajillion dollar idea that, you know, that made my career and all this. And so I wasn't telling anybody about it. And as a result, nothing much was happening for awhile. And, um, and I was at Ford field.
Uh, covering the high school football championships around Thanksgiving for, um, you know, Thanksgiving, probably 2009, [00:06:00] um, for West Michigan all-star and I'm on roughly the 50 yard line. And this guy that I knew comes up to me, he was also covering high school sports on the East side of the state. His name was Matt Anderson and he, I knew him vaguely, and he comes up to me and he's like, Hey, Ryan, I want to tell you about this idea.
I have. And, and then he pitched me the idea for Vienna, this thing that I would hold on to so tightly. So, um, so he, and I said, how'd
Mike: [00:06:26] you react to that at first where you were kind of like. Were you excited or were you like, wait a second. Oh, shoot. I better do this now or this guy's going to steal my idea.
Ryan: [00:06:34] Yeah. The latter, the latter. Um, I found it particularly at that point in my life and still to some degree, like I re I, um, you know, if there's news, that's like somebody else's going to do it quicker than I am or better or faster or whatever. I always tended to react to that with just this existential dread.
Um, and, uh, and then it would be motivational right. To, you know, to do whatever. Um, I felt like I had to, but, but we started it, [00:07:00] um, you know, we went through an accelerator called momentum, which was kind of a pattern after Techstars and Y Combinator. Um, and that taught me a whole bunch of stuff. Um, The the, the way that those accelerators are successful in some of the major markets is they have as 12 week buildup from, you know, the beginning to when you're ready to pitch, and then you go out and pitch to investors and, um, and ostensibly, then that kind of leads to your first financing round and, and on and on.
And in grand Rapids at the time, there were just no investors. And so we got built up over 12 weeks and like, you know, a lot of attention in the media, all this stuff, and we get to the end and it's just like fall off a cliff. So we fell off a cliff and every other company that went through momentum fell off a cliff, not because momentum wasn't valuable.
I think they did a great job, but there wasn't the ecosystem at the time.
Mike: [00:07:54] You got already, and there was no club to go to your, like, your hair was done, like your makeup, everything. And there was [00:08:00] nowhere to go. There's no love to go to the restaurant. It's like, well, what do I do now? Great.
Ryan: [00:08:07] The way to think about it.
I feel like I, I looked great for a long time after that too. But then, you know, it was just trying to find the club, um,
Mike: [00:08:15] So, yeah, it took,
Ryan: [00:08:17] I was, I was out walking the streets, trying to figure out which door I could get past the doorman for like two years, um, eaten PB and J and you know, the whole thing. And, uh, and then finally in 2012, we, um, we closed our first financing round.
It was rough up until then. Um, and then, you know, it's not like it got easier. It just kinda got different after that. Um, and we grew from, you know, between 2012 and 2015, we grew from, you know, me and Matt to 75 people across like 30 States. Um, and it was, you know, in hindsight, like we did, we could have done it a [00:09:00] hell of a lot better than we did, you know, it's, uh, that type of growth.
Uh, required more sort of intentionality around culture and, um, just the, the people side of the business than I had ever, you know, ever thought that it needed. And so, um, the culture ended up actually just really, really turning bad, you know, around 2014 through 16 or so. And, um, a lot of it was my fault. I mean, probably all of it was my fault.
Um, and you know, sort of reconciling with that reconciling with the fact that like, You know, I didn't mean to, right. I didn't intentionally, um, create a culture where people didn't feel valued and, and, um, you know, productive and, and like they, uh, they really valued it, but I did it and it had a lot to do with just who I was at the time.
And you know, what was motivational to me and, and. Despite any of the stuff that we put on the wall, you know, it doesn't really matter. It just matters what, you know, what the leader does. And so that was a little [00:10:00] bit of a gut check for me that, uh, you know, when we got to that point, um, Would
Mike: [00:10:05] you say that was like, when you say the culture got bad, can you expand on that a little bit?
Like, what was it, what was bad about it? And what were the key things that you feel like you weren't doing? Were you like micro-managing? Was it, did you have people that were micro-managing? Was there not a clear vision? I mean, some of those things that are the. The typical, you know, first time founder, CEO.
Ryan: [00:10:27] Yeah. You know, there's, there's probably a lot of different things, but, um, but one thing that was sort of at the beginning, uh, or maybe at the cause of a lot of other things is, is I had this, this expectation in my head that it was really important that I was like on all the time and that I was crushing it and that I had this.
Um, image that, that I felt like it was important for the company to have to the market. Um, Of that we were just crushing it, that we were doing really good work. [00:11:00] And, you know, I, I, over time and sort of reflecting on that, I realized that like, that is important in some contexts, like in raising money, you know, it's, you're putting on a suit, you're putting your makeup on, you're doing the whole thing and you're presenting your best version of yourself to the, to the market.
And in the hopes that they'll invest in you and you get to go on a date with them or get married, um, And, and there's, you know, all the other virtually all the other contexts that, that, uh, you, you know, in terms of business leadership, that can be really bad. That can be really toxic. And, you know, I think I, um, leaned really far into this image of myself as the hot shot tech CEO, and us as the, you know, The top company in Michigan, that's winning.
Like we want to accelerate Michigan, which was the biggest business plan competition in the world. We're growing like 200% a year. Like all these different things saying, yeah, this is just this hot company. Yeah. And I bought that. [00:12:00] Um, and I think in buying that I did a couple of things that were, were harmful.
So, um, You know, one thing that, uh, there's this parable around, uh, the five blind men and the elephant, I think is what it's called. And in essence, it it's, you know, there's five blind guys that, that find this elephant. They're trying to figure out what in the heck it is. They've never seen an elephant before.
And one of them is feeling the tusk and he's like an elephant is hard and smooth and pointy. So that's what animal we're dealing with. Another one's feeling the leg and he's like, no, it feels like a tree trunk. That's Harry. I don't know what you're talking about on and on around the elephant. And, um, you know, it's a parable in that, like, nobody is, none of their perspectives are wrong.
They're all right. They're just incomplete. And I found that business works a lot like that. Um, but as a leader, when you're very, very certain as I was around the direction that you're going and what there is to do you [00:13:00] think that your image of the elephants, the only image. And, uh, and it can lead you to, to at least in my experience, it led me to be a little, um, insular in terms of, you know, what feedback I took and, uh, and you know, what role I wanted the people around me to play.
Can I honestly biased more towards like, do the work rather than help me build this, which was, uh, people feel that, you know, and then the other, the other dynamic that, that created was a, um, when you. When you crush it and you have this image of, of a company that's that's, um, you know, everybody in it is doing fantastic work all the time, which is what I really tried to create.
Like, nobody really is. Nobody does it all the time, you know, everybody's up and down. That's just, that's the startup journey. And so, um, But by creating this company culture that, that [00:14:00] looked like that it made it harder for everybody else inside it to perform because like innovation requires risk. And if everybody else around you is crushing it, you got to look in the mirror and you're like, I'm not like this could really not work this new thing that I'm thinking about doing it makes it a lot harder to innovate.
Just because everybody else looks like they're doing really well. So, um, and it leads to a bunch of things like imposter syndrome and you know, all this, all this fun stuff that like eventually just blew up. Um, and it wasn't like a, like a, like there's this big event where everybody walked out or anything like that, like that happens in companies that never happened to me.
But, um, But we just got stuck in so much politics and so much, um, you know, non forward-looking stuff that eventually we were just weren't we're missing numbers. It was all like, things were just going, going in the wrong [00:15:00] direction. And so at the time, and this was probably 2016, um, I got to the point where I was just really, really bummed about the whole thing and had sort of.
Run out of ways of spinning it into, Hey, this is all going to be good.
Mike: [00:15:18] Ran out of ways to spin it. I like that.
Ryan: [00:15:23] And yeah, w it was an, and I think that was one of the most important things that happened to my, to, you know, the growth of the company. And then to my own growth was. Getting to the point where I just ran out of ways of, of, you know, putting lipstick on a pig and was finally just broken open enough that I was willing to deal with the fact that I had created a culture that, that didn't work for people.
Yeah. And that was the jumping off point. And then we, um, did a whole bunch of really, really hard work, um, over the next few years and, and, you know, righted the ship and got it to the point where it was. Back to like [00:16:00] 50% growth or more a year. Um, uh, and you know, and we're doing some really cool things.
Mike: [00:16:08] That's cool. No, I, and I feel like when you have conversations like this, it's like, I'm looking to say, talk about all your flaws, you know, which is, is sometimes is hard, but I know you write a lot about this and I love your writing because it's geared where, when reading it, it's, it's geared at someone that's in the thick of that journey that you were going through.
Right. And so I'd like to, to, to stay there a little bit, because I'd like to understand. What, where did you get the notion of the person that you had to be there? You said you were, you were kind of like reading your own press, you know, you're feeling like, Oh, you know, I ha and then I have to maintain the success, or I have to, I have to beat this person.
Where do you feel like you got that? W why did you feel that that was the right, um, Methodology, if you will, because I can relate to that, [00:17:00] you know, in, in running a company. And I, and I think that sometimes it comes from, you know, seeing successful people. That's the image that you get from them, especially in the tar, in the tech startup world.
Um, but maybe as you've reflected upon that, tell me a little bit about how you thought about that and how you've helped, you know, conversations you've had with founders. Cause I know that's another big part of what you're doing now, which is. Helping founders that are right in the, in, in the thick of all of this.
Ryan: [00:17:29] Well, yeah, so, so I mean, I have my own story and it's not the same story as, as other founders. Like I think everybody has, has a unique, a unique journey, uh, as it, as it relates to this. But for a long time, I didn't, I was swimming in the water to such a degree that I didn't realize that I was in the water.
Right. I just, I didn't realize that I was, I was. Playing such a role that it, that I actually was, I felt like this was just what you had to do. I [00:18:00] think there's this sense that I had that, um, you know, I had this amazing opportunity that I had created and everybody's telling me, you know, you're doing great and this is good.
And yada, yada, meanwhile, I see all the nastiness, you know, in the, in the, um, At work for whatever the problems are. Cause it's just, you know, you have problems, I'm running a business. That's, that's what it is. And the juxtaposition between those, I think gave me the idea that, um, if people found out just how little I actually knew what I was doing and how little I actually like, um, Met, you know, my perception of their expectations of me than I would lose all this opportunity.
And I think it's like, it's a version of imposter syndrome, right. That, um, that I certainly struggled with, you know, being a first time founder and, and, uh, and launching something at the scale that we were running with. And that like, [00:19:00] obviously it's stressful, but, but it also is really, really isolating because, um, It's sort of this cycle of people think that you're good.
You realize that actually it's much more complicated than that. And there's actually lots of nastiness skeletons in the closet, any, and I had this sense that these skeletons were somehow inappropriate, which now having done it for a while, it's like, no, it's just how like people have skeletons. Is this like part of businesses is solving a whole bunch of problems all the time.
Yeah. Um, But at the time I felt like no, that's, these are things that I, that is like something wrong with me that I have not solved all of these other problems. And these people feel like I have, and I better protect that. Otherwise I'll, you know, bad things will happen. And I don't know that I never articulated what the bad things worked, but they were always very, very, very, very nasty.
Yeah.
Mike: [00:19:49] And they were, they, it sounds like they became the barometer for your own kind of self image or worth or value. And you're saying, Hey, there's this mismatch of [00:20:00] the signals that I'm listening to over here in the business, which come to find out they're pretty normal, but I'm receiving them as, as me being unsuccessful.
And I need to be at this image of success and you're, and the bridging between those two is just like,
Ryan: [00:20:12] that's the conundrum, right? Yeah. And that's, you know, I think that's a, it's not limited to startup founders, but it's certainly, I think the, the journey of particularly like if you're raising venture capital and like projecting the future as a, as a technique that can lead to that, um, you know, I think exacerbated it for me, but, but you know, that was, uh, that was a model, um, that I lived in and, and, uh, and grew a lot in like the company grew a lot for a period of time.
And probably for about, um, you know, I was just in that for probably eight years. And, um, and then maybe two, two and a half years ago woke up and sort of, you know, sort of had to reconcile with the fact [00:21:00] that, Hey, I had, you know, built this company, turned it around at all. The different things had all this sort of success, but it didn't feel successful.
Like, um, I had climbed to the top of the mountain many times over and every time that I'd done it, I look back and I'm like, well, this didn't, this wasn't, it clearly it's something else. Um, and then I'd recreate a new mountain and maybe two and a half years ago, or so I finally got to the point where I was like, I couldn't even convince myself that creating another mountain would matter.
Um, and that was really like, you know, uh, a disruptive thing for me because, um, so much of my life was built around climbing mountains. That to confront the fact that, you know, maybe, you know, maybe the next mountain won't even matter any more than the, or maybe the inevitability that the next mountain won't matter anymore than the previous ones.
Um, and so, you know, over the next couple of years, uh, uh, I, I ignored [00:22:00] that for awhile, ignored that sense that it needed to something needed to change and just. You know, you're running a company, there's a lot of obligations, a lot of, um, people who are counting on you and commitments that you've made. So I wanted to, I just leaned into doing that.
Um, but eventually, you know, got to the point where, um, uh, we ha we Vinn, we had hired a, a new CEO and he was sort of the perfect person for where the company needed to go. Um, but was a really hard hire for me. Because it was like intellectually very much an onboard with what he can bring to the company.
But emotionally, you know, I remember signing the paperwork and it was like a punch to the gut, this identity crisis of like, who in the hell am I, if not this company now. And, uh, you know, and that was a lot of these things sort of added up and eventually got to the point where I was like, okay, I just need to take some time, uh, [00:23:00] and, and process this.
And at the time I was talking with this guy, a mentor of mine named Carl Erickson, who's local to us. Um, it's a software founder and he, uh, He was telling me about the sabbatical that he took. And he's like, you know, I hit a wall with my business and this was a different version than mine, but, you know, hit that wall.
And, um, and I just took three months off and didn't do anything for three months. And that just seemed like the most crazy, like horrible. Nobody would ever accept that idea ever.
Mike: [00:23:33] Good. Good for you, Carl. Yeah. It's good for you. No way. It's going to work for
Ryan: [00:23:37] me. No, I have, I have like, you know, all these people that are counting on me and I have to maintain all this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you know, good for you.
And, uh, but he pushed me on it and he was like, you know, you know, I think like here's the business case, why it makes sense. Um, you're an asset and it's your responsibility to maximize that asset. Um, [00:24:00] and you know, you've been busting your butt for 10 years on this, on this business. And, you know, you've recognized that you're not in a space where you're as productive as the company needs you to be, and here's an action you can take to get there.
Um, and I think he asked me like, what if it was somebody else in your company that asked you the same thing? Would you, what would you say. And I was like, well, okay, well I'd probably let them do it, but not me, you know? Um, and you
Mike: [00:24:25] said the same thing to me when we were talking about it, it was like, I didn't, I didn't want to, I didn't want to accept that comment as like truth.
I'm like that. I can't, I, it just goes against what my logic in my head. So I didn't even want to, I don't even want to talk about it.
Ryan: [00:24:40] Yeah. But that's a thing, you know, like I think we have, as, as, um, startup founders, we. And in the beginning or as, as, as entrepreneurs, like so much of our success is by is, is accomplishing things without like the resources and support that others have.
Right. Really, you get this [00:25:00] sense of like me doing a good job is being resourceful and figuring stuff out, even without resources and without job support. And at some point that like that's a really useful thing and at some stage, but at a certain stage of your company that becomes really limiting because there are, you know, areas where we as leaders need to grow every one of us and.
And, and, you know, in order to grow with a company, you need to invest in the growth of the leader. It's one of the most high leverage parts, but I think I was caught in a space for some time of like, well, you know, I don't want to, I can't justify the investment in me. I just need to be resourceful and figure it out.
And the fact that I would even need to consider, like either taking a sabbatical or paying somebody to work with me or any of that is like a personal failing on my part. Because I'm not resourceful enough to just have already figured it out.
Mike: [00:25:56] Yeah. Yeah, no, I I'm tracking [00:26:00] 110% with you. Like yeah. It's like the admission of a failure by having to leverage a resource.
It's like, that's what it is in your mind.
Ryan: [00:26:08] Yeah. And that's of, I don't think about that as all for any of my employees. I'm like, You have growth goals, right? Um, that, that resources go against, but yeah, not for me. I, uh, I had a very different, very different outlook, but in any event then Carl, uh, persuaded me and I took the sabbatical.
And, you know, what was a, um, kind of a low key burn in the background of like, something needs to change became like front and center? Oh, no. Um, and I remember, I, I related to it, like, I was like, um, I have the sense and an entering into the sabbatical. The, I had this sense that I've been running and running and running for 15 years.
And I like, I feel just bad about myself when I'm not on and producing and being successful and all this. [00:27:00] And I've been, I feel like I've, I've been running from a sense like that, that bad feeling of what would happen if I wasn't as successful as I am. And so my goal for the sabbatical was like, I'm just going to stop doing anything that makes me feel successful for a period of time.
So that was like any work, Nope. Stopping at any production of any sort stop, uh, basketball stop. Like all of it just stopped all of those things. And the theory was, I'm going to stop running and I'm going to let it catch up. And then I'm going to stare in the face and see what happens. And, and it caught up and it was hard.
And it was, um, I kind of learned about myself that I have this deep seated belief that, um, I'm not, you know, good enough for the things that I have. And I need to like constantly achieve to keep that voice at Bay and sort of introducing myself to this, you know, this, this [00:28:00] voice of mine was a. It was a hell of a thing.
And it took a, you know, a lot of work to sort of get to the point where, where I could integrate that into something that was okay.
Mike: [00:28:11] So it's interesting that you say that because, um, w. It kind of goes against the notion that a hard charging entrepreneur or CEO would have just these, this like bravado, um, that would be an eight in someone that's in that role.
But I don't think that that's, I think that your experience is probably very common. Right. And, and obviously I can see how I've experienced some of that. So I'm curious in some of the people that you've worked with and just conversations you've had with other founders that have gone through a similar journey, Would you say they share that similar mental state, if you will to say, I, you kind of don't feel like you deserve the things you have.
So you're kind of like always on always achieving, always marching towards that. Um, tell me about [00:29:00] how, you know, conversations with other founders about that, because that's, it's kind of an interesting dynamic and it's, I would perceive, and, and in my own experience, it's like, You're kind of saying, well, this kind of proves that maybe I'm not right for the role.
Right. You know, you're like, maybe I'm not the right person or, you know, I'm not built for this, you know, but that's kind of part of the whole package. Right. I mean, I assume, but
Ryan: [00:29:21] I think it's, it's, it resonates really clearly with some founders, like, or some entrepreneurs, um, like for me, and for some that I work with you, you have this conversation, it just like hits you in the gut.
Um, And it's like the type of thing that I don't really want to talk about, you know, but it's kind of behind a lot of things. Um, but I think, you know, different people have different sort of, um, Typologies of their fears. Right. For me, it was a fear of not being enough, but some are, you know, fear of, um, not being like [00:30:00] of being weak.
You know, I think there's one that kind of shows up sometimes as well. And oftentimes that's enough in a, an entrepreneur that's like really dominating and really domineering and controlling. Oftentimes there's a sense underneath that of like, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm. Yeah. And my deepest core, I'm concerned that I'm not strong enough.
And so I need to perform in a really strong way to convince the world that that's the case. So, you know, you can go through a lot of life. I went through a lot of life, um, at the effect of your fears in that way. Um, and just sort of acting out, you know, automatic conditioning that says, you know, I need to achieve so that I don't have to deal with this feeling that I have.
Um, But, uh, you know, a good chunk of, of the work of leadership development in the work that I do with founders now is in introducing them to that fear. Um, and you know, becoming familiar with it to the extent that it's part of who you are, [00:31:00] and it has pros like it has some real positives to it. There's a reason that, that I did it is because it got me stuff, right.
It helped me to succeed in material ways and other ways. So it's not a, it's not like it's a bad thing, but it does exist. And it does have, you know, um, negative outcomes as well. Like it, it causes automatic sort of, um, mechanical behaviors that sometimes I don't like, like, I don't like feeling like crap if I'm not, you know, checking boxes.
Um, I don't like sending out an email that. I just like rushed out and I immediately regretted after sending it, but I just felt like I had to be productive and get this thing off my chest. So I had to send it. Like I look back at those types of things and I'm like, yeah, that was dumb. And I don't want to, I don't want that to be how I show up in the world, but in order to stop in order to like, take control over your actions, you have to integrate why.
[00:32:00] You're doing them in the first place. And oftentimes that has to do with, you know, some, some, um, some deeper stuff like this.
Mike: [00:32:06] Yeah. So you, so you hit this wall, you know, you said you slowed down so that it would hit you and then you realize this. So then walk me through the, getting to the other side of this realization and, and where, what your outlook is now, you know, in how to.
What I heard you say in your story was there wasn't time to reflect on those things and what was kind of happening. So you had it, you had this morphed, you know, view of, you know, where you felt like you should be things that are going on the company, but you never really took the time to reflect on that.
Um, and then, then you did, and it was this revelation moment of it. It's smacking you in the face, so to speak. So then walk me through like the next step, you know, what happens after that?
Ryan: [00:32:53] Yeah. Um, Well, I think my initial, my initial reaction to it was like, Oh man, I got some [00:33:00] stuff I want to address. Um, and I got some stuff I want to, you know, sort of, sort of, um, fix as it were.
And, uh, and so I went back, you know, I was working at Vienna and still at the time at post sabbatical. And I, I came back with the intention of like, I'm going to come back and, you know, address all these things and write all these wrongs. And I was. You know, I, I was probably pretty obnoxious with, uh, with, uh, how much energy I had around that.
And, and in coming back, it became clear pretty quickly that like the company, the culture, the, um, you know, the goals of the people, like all of it that I had had been baking in for forever, I came back and I was a different person. I wasn't somebody that was compatible with, with, um, you know, with the company any longer.
And that was a tough thing as well. And so, um, but I was, I was sort of in it by that point and not, you know, I wasn't gonna turn back. And so I ended up leaving Vinn after only a couple [00:34:00] of months back, um, and you know, spent some time with just space. Um, Gave myself some room. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to, to take a few months at that point and just like experiment with things.
Um, I had been a writer my whole life, uh, prior to starting businesses. And so I got a chance to pick that back up again. Um, I've been a meditator for a long time, and so I had a chance to teach, uh, or Sherpa, uh, meditation groups for business leaders, which was a really cool sort of juxtaposition between those two worlds.
Um, And through that experimentation, which was really just me giving myself creative license to, you know, figure out what was in my heart and what I wanted to, to what sort of self-expression I wanted to my, the next chapter of my life to be about. Um, and then out of that came leadership development. Um, and [00:35:00] specifically this concept of the transcendent leader, which is, I think something that, um, You know, plays into the, the zeitgeists of the moment right now, in terms of how, um, you know, businesses are starting to become not only about the balance sheet, but also very much about, you know, the purpose behind them.
Um, and the most successful leaders have some, you know, some, um, Characteristics in common that in a lot of ways, mirror the process of growing up into, you know, who you are as a person is, is the way that you grow up into who you are as a leader. And so, um, that topic has just been endlessly fascinating.
And, and my leader, my coaching work, my writing work, a lot of it just stems out of a deep passion for, um, you know, waking up and then helping others to, to do that as
Mike: [00:35:50] well. Yeah. No, I think it's, I think it's very much in this I Geist and I think it's very much needed in, in kind of the [00:36:00] ecosystem right now.
And I'm not talked about enough
Ryan: [00:36:03] days. Oh my goodness.
Mike: [00:36:06] Yeah, exactly. Election day plus one, you know, here. Uh, I, yeah, exactly. Um, I wanna. I want to bring it to fatherhood a little bit. So I want you, you know, you have, I think you have two kids, right,
Ryan: [00:36:20] right. Uh, Casper and Leo, Casper's a four year old and then Leo is a two year old boy.
Okay.
Mike: [00:36:26] So you would have had them then on the tail end of kind of Vinn. Right. So I'm curious, tell me a little bit about, um, how that kind of changed your perspective to just that minor thing about becoming a father in there. Right.
Ryan: [00:36:42] It's so much. And honestly, like, I think it was a, that probably played a good, um, my, when I had my first, uh, my first boy that probably played a significant role in kind of right setting what was important for me.
Um, and, and, you know, completely burning my, [00:37:00] or like, um, completing my desire to just be successful for successful sake. Like, I think that that was one of the catalysts to get off that train, but. Um, but even before that, I remember before we had kids, um, what's kind of interesting is, uh, is we Laura and I, my wife, we talked about having kids for probably three years or so before we eventually did.
And there was always a business related reason not to, there's always like, no, I just, you know, I just gotta close this next round or I just got to get to this next milestone or whatever. And so. In the same way that I felt like getting that milestone was going to make me happy. I also like put having kids at stake.
So I was like, I want kids. And that happens too. And then, um, you know, finally it just got to the point where I was like, that's never going to happen. We're just going to have to do it and deal with the consequences. And in 2016, we had Casper and, um, and it was. I remember I related to the first three months as [00:38:00] Vietnam.
And I was like, uh, just like, don't die. It was really hard. He was a, he's a really active, um, kid and reminds me a lot of myself at that age. Um, and I had all these fears around like, you know, my performance is going to suffer. Like the reason I didn't have kids is because it would hurt my business. Um, and then I actually found that when I had Casper my first.
Within short order. The real experience of it was, it was a forcing mechanism for me to level up my game because I was forced to only work 50 hours or whatever it was a week because I had all these other parental responsibilities, um, and things that I wanted to do that were not work that. You know, I had to be more effective in the, in the time that I was there.
And that drove a lot of growth for me, as, in terms of like letting go and empowering, um, my staff and, you know, getting out of the day-to-day grind. And, and frankly [00:39:00] probably gave me a couple of years later, the ability to step away for two months in the company to just tank. I had had kids in that forced me to, to do that work.
Mike: [00:39:12] Yeah, no, I think that's, that's a similar, um, sediment. I hear from a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, that it's, there's a step change when they have kids that they're all, suddenly they say, Oh, I have to change the way I work. And that's actually a, that I was holding myself back by doing some of these other things that I was forced to let go of, you know?
Ryan: [00:39:31] Yeah. Well you do, you have a bunch of kids, right? So isn't that same for you.
Mike: [00:39:35] Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, I think that, um, we had kids pretty early on in my entrepreneurial journey, which I think was probably good in the sense that I, I crafted some good habits, but I think, um, it's a never-ending thing.
Right. You know, it's like the kids get older and then there there's new challenges. So you're having to adapt to that. And then it's obviously more mental capacity that you're having to take. So you have to find that [00:40:00] somewhere you're, you're only finite, you know, and, and. I think the trap that I get into and that I hear from a lot of dads is like at home, you want to throw on the Superman Cape and just go and just do everything.
And you can't, you know, or you can't do that if you're fully depleted. And, and one of the things I was thinking about actually, when you were talking about, um, You were talking about, uh, the, kind of the growth of the company and, um, you know, doing everything. And I was thinking about with, uh, with kids, it's like, as your kids grow from like zero to two, you know, you have to do so much, but then you have to, you cannot scale that.
Um, if you just keep doing all those things, like they have to learn those things, right? Like they have to, it's not sustainable if you're constantly worrying about different things and it's like, they have to make mistakes. They have to learn how to do things or else. The house is not sustainable, you know?
Yeah. There's a really strong analogy there with business. That's probably
[00:41:00] Ryan: [00:41:00] a reason that, that, uh, founders who are, who started company at 40 years old are old, like 40 to 50 is the, one-year the most successful in terms of starting a company. And there's this, this idea that it's all 20 year old kids. Um, but the, the batting percentages are significantly higher for, for people probably who have kids.
I bet you there's because of that corollary or that, that parallel that you're describing, that probably plays a role in it. There's a, um, there's a book that I found super useful during this process called iron John. Um, and have you ever read this book? No, it's, uh, it's a, the Grimm's fairy tale, iron John.
And there's this guy named Robert Bly. Who's a poet that like. It's 200 pages on the symbolism of this, of this fairy tale. And it's, it's quite amazing. It has all to do with like the process of growing up as a man in America, um, fathers and sons and that sort of stuff. And for me with the boys, it was, uh, it was instructive in terms of, [00:42:00] um, you know, some of the, the challenges that go with depleting yourself at work, and then also being a dad, um, What I remember, I'm sure I'm going to bastardize it.
But, um, but what I took away from it was, you know, for a long time in American history, the, the dad worked at home and was out in the field and doing whatever he was doing. Right. And so, as a, as a young boy, you got to see every day, you get to see your dad. Um, out in the field doing his thing and he's in his element.
Uh, and you know, in doing that, you got to see us, you got a sense of like, this is what I'll be when I become a man, right. Plus, or minus of course, a lot, but that's the moment. And. Then in the, around the fifties and you know, up until maybe COVID, uh, it had gotten, you know, more and more distant, the man has gotten more and more distant from the home and his golf and really like for me, and I'm sure a lot of people spending [00:43:00] the vast majority of his, you know, creative and soulful reserves at work and you come home and like, and obviously your kids don't see that they don't see who you are at work and you just come home and.
Like, I think I, I was terrified at once I gave, what else I got this sort of reflection is terrified of coming home and giving my kids an impression of their life as what w you know, what their life would be as a man, as just this tired guy that comes home every day and doesn't really want to do much.
And so there's this, I try to, at my best, I try to treat, um, coming home as like the most important meeting of the day now. Just to give it the care that it deserves, because there is definitely the, the, the, it would be very easy because of how, how much effort I spend on work to come home and want that to be rest.
Um, but I think I'm present more now than ever to the impact that that has on my kids. And I [00:44:00] don't want to model that.
Mike: [00:44:01] Yeah. And that goes back to, I think that's a really important note and I want to check out that book, we'll link it in the show notes, but, um, It's important to think about yourself as not, you, you can't give out of a vacuum, right?
If you can't give out a depletion. And so, you know, the holistic view of saying, how am I ensuring my well is full and. That's part of it. I mean, it's all, it's all tied together. I mean, as I was like you were saying, it's like, if you're not leading effectively where you can get stuff off your plate at work, you're not gonna, you're going to be constantly feeling like you're running on empty and then your family gets the leftovers or, you know, um, even at home, if you're not leading well, as the kids are growing maturing and let them do more, you're constantly taxed by having to do all this stuff.
That you can't, you know, actually coach them and lead them effectively in the stage that they're getting into, you know, as they grow and mature and take on more responsibility. And it's like a never ending thing. It's in the same with, with kids. And as [00:45:00] with building a business, everything changes by the day, the minute, you know, the year, you know, The whole dynamic is changing.
You have to learn a new role, you know, how to change a diaper, to like how to teach them how to do chores to like, I mean, I'm not in the next stage yet, but it's like, it's all new every, you know, every year. And if your business is growing, that's the same. And if you don't adapt to that, you are going to fail pretty miserably, but you feel like, I mean the same thing as if you, you, you feel like you should be doing this great job.
And then if you're not, you know, kids are doing whatever it's like. Everyone else has it together. I don't have it together. You know what, what's the deal. It's like this juxtaposition of those two, those two things that causes a lot of issues. So
Ryan: [00:45:43] yeah, I think, uh, societaly we like social media and other things are kind of exacerbate that too, that, that sense that everybody else has something figured out that I don't have figured out.
Um, but it's, you know, it's, it can be pretty, um, impactful. [00:46:00] So. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's a journey, right? It's a, it's a process of trying to figure out. Um, well I think for me like the, the, the approach has changed, um, I think a really productive way when I'm on my game, uh, to be less, I think a lot of these challenges STEM from trying to control outcomes.
I'm trying to like steer life into a certain way of being right, trying to steer your kids into a certain way of being, trying to steer your business and do a certain, certain configuration. Um, and now even, you know, at four years old, I can look back and be like, man, I did probably more wrong than right with my kids.
Um, and they're still here and they're still amazing. And so like, there's, that sort of gives me some evidence, um, you know, the backup, the notion that I actually don't have to control and drive all this stuff I can, um, support and, you know, be a [00:47:00] resource for, and create space for my kids to go on their own journeys, um, and keep them safe.
So they're not running into the street, but you know, not have to drive so much of it. And I think there's a parallel to that in. Business growth as well. Um, you know, you can be really, really productive, really, really successful with a laser focus on just your habits right now, and completely let go of where that takes you.
Um, and I think, you know, my, my experience is on a hell of a lot happier treating business like art than I am treating business. Like, you know, this problem that needs to be solved.
Mike: [00:47:40] Expand upon that a little bit, because earlier you said businesses just problems. Right. So, so they solve, right. So tell me about how to, how to treat it that way.
I mean, um, I kinda got what you were saying, but expand upon that a little bit.
Ryan: [00:47:54] Yeah. Um, well, so I'm a writer, so I relate to, to [00:48:00] writing. And if you, um, you know, I stare at a blank page and. Like, it'd be really easy to look at that. Like while I need to, you know, write the next great American novel so that then I can be a novelist so that then I can make a bunch of money and, you know, kind of get the progression of things that come from that.
Um, and maybe at the end of all of that, I end up with, okay, what I want to do is I want to write a story about a boat to make up something, but that's going to get me all these things. It's like, that's a great way to write a story about a boat, I suppose, but it's really fricking stressful because there's so many of those things that, that, um, you know, that are at stake there.
And I think like I find that I'm more productive and more centered and, um, and achieve better results if I just look at the blank page and just start writing and, you know, see what comes out of that. Um, [00:49:00] And if it turns out that it's a boat, it's like, yeah. Great. There's that's what was the, it was w that's what was there to create today.
Yeah. Um, so when I did the meditation groups, it wasn't out of trying to get somewhere. It was just, yeah. I felt like the world needed meditation introduced into the business context and I felt like I could do that. So I started it. And there was no purpose for it apart from like, it was just like a, an art project.
But I have been amazed at how much that art project has driven coaching business for me. Yeah. Like, you know, a year later. Um, so this it's, it's kind of a, you know, letting go to the, the flow that's that wants to create something through you anyway, rather than. Kind of white knuckling on this is what the future needs to look like, which is how I live for a long time.
Mike: [00:49:55] I think that's a very insightful, and I think at first blush it's hard to [00:50:00] grasp, um, because it seems like. When I hear that it goes against these characatures of these really successful, you know, founders, CEOs that start these huge companies, whether it's like Steve jobs or Musk or Bezos, they're like they see, they envision this future and they have this great vision for this, this great product,
Ryan: [00:50:19] reality distortion field, as you hear
Mike: [00:50:20] exactly.
You know, and, and they, then they're saying, well, they're just marching towards that. So then. All that you described earlier with your journey was this notion that they have to, you have to live up to this expectation that's presented to you. And in that you kind of killed that inner artist where you actually could thrive.
Like, like you just expressed, it's like you created this meditation group that led to this other business and it's like, you were squashing that because you had to live up to this other. Um, just because that was the narrative that is kind of preached and propagated and everyone's glorifying and. It's just, it's just kind of interesting to me.
It's like, where did these things come from? Where did [00:51:00] these notions come from? It, especially with entrepreneurs and founders, you know, they, they just want to be in the front page of, you know, Forbes or something, I
Ryan: [00:51:08] guess.
Mike: [00:51:09] Whereas
Ryan: [00:51:10] a lot of, a lot of media that tells us that that's important. Like it's not like we start out life with a blank page in terms of what's important.
We start out with American opinions, um, and those are different opinions. If you're a white guy versus if you're any other color in any other gender. Um, like you're a part of this culture that when you, you know, when you start out, comes with a pre-described definition of success. And I think for a lot of people, myself included, you start your career trying to live up to that.
And it's like, you select from a menu. Am I going to be a doctor, a lawyer, an entrepreneur, or this or this or this? Like, you know, you have all these options. And you're picking, right? You're just, you're selecting from one of these different options. And then the minute that you pick them, there's a whole bunch of other people who are better than [00:52:00] you at that thing.
And it becomes a chase, right? It's like, okay, I'm going to go make something of myself or be all that I can be. Or there's so many different, you know, axioms around this, this concept in America. Um, And then eventually, you know, with a lot of luck and hard work and all this stuff, maybe you become that that's I was fortunate.
I feel like I achieved what I set out to achieve a few times over, like I said, um, and it's only at that point that I was able to realize that those weren't my dreams to begin with. And like I had been busting my ass to become successful based on something that I didn't really care about that much. Um, And being able to like, take that framework of like American success and move it to an object rather than a subject so that I could look at it and evaluate it and decide how I, with my one wild and precious life, how I really felt about that.
Um, [00:53:00] for me, it was clear that, you know, I wanted to do something else.
Mike: [00:53:03] So what do you say to someone that is nodding their head as they're listening to this and your story and they're resonating with the majority of all that you said. What's what's the baby step. They're like, yeah, that's great. Maybe they're there.
They're thinking then. Well, I can't take a sabbatical. That's crazy. Um, but I feel like everything Ryan is saying is totally resonating. What, what's a baby step, you know, what, what do they do?
Ryan: [00:53:33] I think that it depends on what part of it resonates. I mean, there's probably different, different recommendations, but, um, I think that there's a big difference between as I look back at my own journey between trying to process all this stuff on your own versus processing it with somebody else, um, or somebody else.
And so, you know, I feel like that's almost a [00:54:00] binary thing. Like either this is a secret and you're wearing a mask as you go to work and you're playing a role in all of these things or. You're not in, you're open with somebody about it. And I think like for me being open with somebody led to being open with a lot of people, um, maybe that happens for people, maybe it doesn't, but I feel like having that resource of somebody would be at family, be it friends, be it a coach, be it as somebody that you can, um, you know, talk about the stuff like this level of like, um, discomfort.
And you can, you can somebody that can be there with you to process that, um, Can lead to a lot of growth, uh, in whatever way makes sense for that person.
Mike: [00:54:44] Yeah. And I think of, you know, when you and I had coffee, like a few weeks ago and we like walked around downtown for like an hour. And I PR I probably talked like 90% of the time and you're just kinda like, yeah, you asked me a question and I'm like, I'm like, but this, I think you prefaced it all.
Bye. Will you [00:55:00] preface it all by? I read a lot of your writing that you've been doing. So I'm like, okay, this guy actually knows. And we knew each other and everything, but I didn't know the depth of your story, but I knew you had enough context to at least kind of know. That, Hey, he kind of resonates with what some of the stuff I'm going through, but it was just so healthy because I feel like you don't know, there's not a lot of people you can talk to, you know, that's, I think that's kind of what you were saying.
It's kind of like, you need to talk to someone and that someone might be different based on what you resonated with or what, what part of the journey you're on. And I got this, this image flashed in my head when you're talking, it's like, The further you deny that and have those conversations. You're like digging yourself in a hole and then you, you need a longer and longer ladder to kind of get out.
Right. And you're like further isolating yourself from anyone that can,
Ryan: [00:55:52] um,
Mike: [00:55:53] kind of relate to that. Or, you know, you kind of are further going, just going further down and kind of a rabbit hole that that can be really unhealthy. [00:56:00] Yeah,
Ryan: [00:56:00] I think we, um, the more successful you are sometimes the harder that is because it reinforces that, Oh yeah, I got this.
Like, I can handle this all on my own because I've been doing it and look at what I've got. Right. I look back and I'm like, I I've done all these things and I've been so successful. It doesn't feel like it, but you know, I can look back and point to a bunch of things that say that, that, um, now I don't need help.
I can do this. And I think, I think. If you look at any other discipline, um, at a certain point of success, you, you have somebody that's working with you, you have a, um, you know, for professional athletes, like every single professional athlete has a coach. Um, and it's not because they're not good at their sport is because they're very good at their sport to the point where they've reached the limit of what they can do on their own and figure out how to go beyond that.
And I think in leadership, um, and, and in company leadership, you know, there's not like there's a 10 [00:57:00] step plan, that'll make you a good leader or anything like that. The process of becoming the best leader that you can be is becoming yourself. It's taking off the masks, it's being, you know, somebody who is authentic and broken and imperfect, and also committed deeply to achieving something.
Like that's the thing that. Inspires a team to follow, um, and inspires them sort of a mission to get created, but you can't get to that point just in your own head.
Mike: [00:57:33] Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a, that's a key, uh, statement, you know, it's. You need to be the, you need to be your full self, you know, and you, the mask you put on are the things you're trying to do, distract you from the unique value that you bring.
That's, that's truly authentic. And it's kind of a counterintuitive thing because that's perceived as weakness, you know, to some degree, um, or that you're trying to put on [00:58:00] this, like mass to be more genuine, but.
Ryan: [00:58:04] Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's a journey, right? I think like there's, uh, even, even for me, um, especially for me, like there's, you know, the, the, the parts of myself that I'm conscious of and sort of the, you know, strengths, weaknesses, fears, purpose, all that is dramatically higher than it was, but I'm still blind to a lot of stuff.
Like, uh, particularly as I've gotten deeper into the world of racial equity, I run into blind spots all the time. Um, and, and I'm always, you know, I I've gotten to the point where I'm sort of grateful every time I run into one, cause it's like, Oh, okay. Now I have another tool to, you know, to navigate these, these situations more skillfully.
Um, I think leadership works like that too. And I think in the early stages, you think it's just my personality, you know, and everybody else's, they're gonna have to deal with it. And once you can objectify that and start to look at [00:59:00] it, um, Dispassionately then, uh, you get more tools to do a better job.
Mike: [00:59:05] Yeah.
Yeah. I think the, I mean, to sum it all up and cliche, cliche words like self-awareness right, but that's layers to that.
Ryan: [00:59:15] Yeah. The Harvard did a study. HBR did a study that basically said, uh, business success is predicated, uh, or is built on a foundation of how closely your image of yourself matches other people's images of you.
And the closer that is, and not like your persona, like I had, but your real self, um, leads to business success. And there's a bunch of longitudinal data that supports that. So this is also an increasing part of the zeitgeists, which is really encouraging.
Mike: [00:59:46] Exactly. Well, thanks for being around everybody. I really appreciate it.
I think it was really valuable, especially for people that listen to it. I think they'll, they'll find a lot of value because you shared. You know, so many insightful things from your journey. So, so where can [01:00:00] people find you, right?
Ryan: [01:00:02] Yeah. Uh, so I, uh, uh, you can find me on, uh, Ryan H vaughn.com. That's, uh, my coaching practice.
It will be moving. I just formed an LLC. It'll be newly created. It's called, um, uh, Uh, inside out leadership. And, uh, so what's the website and everything else is created, then I'll be directing people there, but Ryan avon.com for now. And, um, I'm also writing a, a weekly blog for conscious startup leaders at, uh, or a weekly newsletter@secondmountainstartup.com.
So they can find it there if they are, if they're interested as well.
Mike: [01:00:35] Awesome. Yeah. And we'll, we'll link all that up in the show notes. So thank you so much for getting on the show.
Ryan: [01:00:41] Yeah, thanks for having me. This was fun.
Mike: [01:00:43] Good to see you.
"I completely numbed myself out because it's like, you know, what do you do if your kid's stuck under the car? Like. You lift up the car, you find a way, and if it feels like your, your arms are going to come out of their sockets, will you keep holding until they crawl out from underneath the car?
You don't know where you find the energy you just, you just do. Right. It was like that, you know, you just have to numb yourself out to take care of people. But that was the wrong way to go about it. Like I, and of course it ultimately reached a breaking point. I ultimately reached a breaking point that resulted in my being burned out and depressed for two years." -Sean McCabe
Have you ever thought to yourself "am I burning out?", then that means you already are on your way (according to Sean McCabe).
Sean (known to most as seanwes) talks about burnout from very real experience, having reached max burnout running his company over the past 10 years. He is someone that I have followed over the past few years because of the wisdom that he shares openly with his audience, this topic being no exception. This topic is so very important today more than ever due to the changes going on in the world. Most people are operating in some low level burn out state and don't realize it or know how to fix it.
Very fun chat with Sean. I also found out in the interview that he is from a family with 13 kids!
Where to find Sean:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/seanwes
His Blog: https://seanwes.com/
His Agency: DailyContentMachine.co
Transcript Below (May contain typos):
Sean: [00:00:00] [00:00:00]I completely numbed myself out because it's like, you know, what do you do if your kid's stuck under the car? Like. You lift up the car, you find a way, and if it feels like your, your arms are going to come out of their sockets, will you keep holding until they crawl out from underneath the car?
You don't know where you find the energy you just, you just do. Right. It was like that, you know, you just have to numb yourself out to take care of people. But that was the wrong way to go about it. Like I, and of course it ultimately reached a breaking point. I ultimately reached a breaking point that resulted in my being burned out and depressed for two years.
Mike: [00:00:38] Have you ever asked yourself? I feel like I might be burning out. Well, if you have, then you probably already are on your way. It just a matter of how burned out you are, but you're inevitably going to reach that point of total burnout unless you change something. , that was the advice given by today's guest, Sean McCabe.
[00:01:00] Most might know him by his, online named Sean Wes. He's a guy that I've followed for quite a few years and very prolific entrepreneur online, very, , inspiring creator, , in a lot of the work that he does, but. He shares a lot of good wisdom around the topic of burnout, which has come up a lot in conversations I've had with fellow entrepreneurs.
So if you're feeling like you're burned out, I encourage you just to listen in on today's episode, to understand a little bit more about what you can do about it. And one of the topics that Sean talks about is this notion of a sabbatical. And it's something I've been really interested in, really seeing a lot more people.
Experiment with it. And there will be more content on that to come in the podcast. But I wanted you to learn from Sean and hear his story because. The last thing you want to do is repeat a mistake that you could have [00:02:00] learned by hearing someone else talk about it so let's jump into the episode with sean
today on the podcast, we have a very special guest, um, Sean McCabe known on the internet as Shawn West, um, from many projects, but I've been following Sean for a long time. He does amazing work. He is an entrepreneur with many different ventures. He's an author, podcaster, vlogger, um, He's not a dad, but he brings a very unique perspective to balancing entrepreneurship with, um, with burnout and, and, and a sabbatical as a solution.
So, Sean, thank you so much for being on the show, man. It's it's such an honor to have you on the show.
Sean: [00:02:39] Oh, thanks so much, Mike. I I've been looking forward to it. I'm glad we were able to make it happen. You're right. Not a dad, but I am the oldest of 13 kids and I've changed well over a thousand diapers. So I don't know what that qualifies me, but
Mike: [00:02:52] I should have known that before this interview, I knew you had a big family.
You're the oldest of
Sean: [00:02:56] 13 kids. That is awesome.
Mike: [00:02:59] That is [00:03:00] amazing. Yeah. So, so we need to start there then. So you got, so I guess, um, you know, I know you've done a lot and I don't want to get too much into the business side, even though you, you have some amazing accomplishments there and, and a lot of the ventures that you started, but, um, man, tell me about, tell me about growing up in a family of 13 kids.
That's awesome.
Sean: [00:03:22] Never a dull moment for sure. I remember walking around the house with a camera, like one of those before smartphones had cameras, you know, just film filming in every room. And there was a kid, there was multiple kids in every room, like just all over the, you know, the couch and under the desk and everywhere.
Um, so never a dull moment. Uh, but they're, they're great, you know, really well behaved, like we'd go out to eat. Everyone's super well behaved. You know, people would. Give compliments to the parents. So great family. We're all really good. Good friends. Still stay really close today. Um, yeah, it's it's holidays are a [00:04:00] blast and it's starting to grow exponentially as like kids have kids.
And, um, but for now, for now, we can meet. In one house for the holidays.
Mike: [00:04:10] That is awesome. Yeah. So, um, you said you're the oldest? Um, so my wife is the eldest of eight kids. Um, and I, and everyone is says, Whoa, whenever I zone that, I'm the, I'm the youngest of four, but. I'm sure you experienced this too. It's like when you have a get together, it's like a huge party and it's just family members, right?
Sean: [00:04:30] It's like
Mike: [00:04:33] just immediate family. It's not even aunts
Sean: [00:04:34] and uncles. It's a, it's a good time. I had started my first business. Um, so I'm, I'm almost 32. So about 15, 16 years ago is when I started my first business. I still lived at home, uh, just coming out of high school and, um, Yeah, I would work like after midnight, because that's when it would get quiet.
That was like the only time that was, I had this focus time.
[00:05:00] Mike: [00:05:00] That's awesome. Yeah. So we, um, I feel that same way, but I have four kids at home, so I feel ya, you know, I got the, we got the fifth one coming in February.
Sean: [00:05:08] Um, but congrats.
Mike: [00:05:10] Well, thank you. Um, That's I'm so I'm pumped. I'm sorry, I'm thrown off a little bit.
I'm so excited to hear that you
Sean: [00:05:16] were
Mike: [00:05:17] 13 because you have such a unique perspective.
Sean: [00:05:20] Um, and, and, uh, homeschooled, which I think you're also, are you okay?
Mike: [00:05:25] Yeah, I, we homeschool our kids. Um, I say we with a very small w because my wife does 90 plus percent of all of that. So, um, my job is to support her and all that she's doing.
So, um, yeah, we love, we love doing that. It's been great. Our kids, the oldest is nine, so we're not, so we have a nine year old, seven year old, a four year old and a two year old. So. The nine and seven are kind of more into, down the road, but the foreign to you, or just, just kinda starting out as a different stuff.
So, yeah. And I had Nathan Berry on the show, I know he was homeschooled. And then I had Ryan, Ryan Delk [00:06:00] on the show, who's doing the primer startup, which is really cool. And so
Sean: [00:06:04] that is really interesting, but both of those guys, yeah,
Mike: [00:06:07] those guys are really cool. And it's interesting to see. I mean, both of those are like tech guys.
Right. And they're tackling the problem in a unique way, or I guess Nathan's not really tackling homeschooling with Comerica, but, um, it's really cool to hear their perspective, having gone through it and then to see how technology can help, you know, Provide superpowers as is primers, you know, tagline, right?
Sean: [00:06:31] Yeah. It's a whole new era for homeschooling, especially with, uh, well, it, things are getting increasingly digital anyway, but then you have the pandemic accelerating all of that too.
Mike: [00:06:41] Yeah. So, so you were homeschooled and so. That's pretty cool. That's it seems like that's a, that's an assumed thing with 13 kids.
Riley, maybe that's a speaking out term.
Sean: [00:06:52] Yeah. I attribute it. Uh, my, my love for learning, I, I attribute to being homeschooled, [00:07:00] so, you know, read every book in the house, like whatever they did, you know, they did, they did something. Right. Cause they instilled a love of learning. And I think that definitely lent itself to my entrepreneurial ventures.
Yeah. I feel like if,
Mike: [00:07:16] if, if, if we homeschool our kids and they don't learn a
Sean: [00:07:19] single academic fact, but they are
Mike: [00:07:23] super curious and super resourceful, I will have succeeded as we will basically see it as parents. Because
Sean: [00:07:31] the
Mike: [00:07:31] reason I say that is because I feel like. The worst traditional public schools beat that out of you by design.
And it's not a, not a knock on school teachers. There's amazing teachers. I'm not trying to do that. That I think that's the problem. I think people tend to speak ill of just traditional schooling when it's like, I think it's just the model is fundamentally flawed. Um, and you can't make that up. The thing I get so passionate when I talk to people, I was like,
Sean: [00:07:57] you, if you beat the love of learning
Mike: [00:07:59] out of [00:08:00] a child and you make it a chore, Good luck making that up when they turn 18, it's like, it sets them up for a life of failure because it's always drudgery, you know, it's all like, it's like that's and that's so unfortunate.
It's like, it's like a, it's like a, a tragedy. It's so sad. How many
Sean: [00:08:20] of us, how many of us hate reading or writing? Because whatever it is that we were forced to write or read. Was something we didn't care about. And that's, that's something you have the ability to tailor with homeschooling is, is the facilitation of, uh, of love for these things like reading and writing when, when you can center it around what the kid is already interested
Mike: [00:08:44] in.
Yeah. We, my son, my nine year old son, he. It was like two years ago he got into rockets. So we bought him like a model rocket, like when you launch up, you know, and it's fine. And he was like, all about it. We'd watch like the space X launches. And it's like, I just was like, yeah, [00:09:00] let's
Sean: [00:09:00] feed
Mike: [00:09:00] everything you got, man.
And he'd like, he'd get books on it. And then, and then you provide a framework for learning all these other things. I mean, he's not at the point yet, but it's like, You bro, the reason you need to learn math and calculus and somebody thinks is so you can build a rocket. It's not some abstract thing. This is, this is a tool to do this and, and.
He was, he was a little bit slower to read and it's like, well, our philosophy is like, well, we're not going to push him. And sure enough, once he got to, he got this book called hatchet, which I don't know if you've ever read that as a kid. It's like, you know, it's like a kid that they, the plane goes down in the middle of the wilderness.
He has to survive as hatchet. And he's like all about it, you know? Cause we went camping one time. He's like all kinds of hatchet and it's like, he's reading it and he's like, soaking it up. And it's like, I didn't say, Oh this month you have to read four books. You know, it's just him chasing his interest in.
It seems so simple, but you can't do that in a, in a huge mass like instructional model, right? You can't
Sean: [00:09:57] anyways. Yeah, because what you're doing is you're, you're [00:10:00] answering the implicit. Why should I care question?
Mike: [00:10:03] Mm. Yeah.
Sean: [00:10:07] And so, and so much time is a disproportionate amount of time is spent on rote memorization, which is virtually useless because like, I, I just was telling my team earlier today and, and you know, on another interview earlier in the week, I do not try to remember anything.
I never try to remember anything, not a single thing, something I want to tell my wife, I throw it on a list. Something I want to do in my business. I throw it on my list, an email I need to reply to. I throw it on a list. I don't try to remember anything at all. I keep my mind completely clear and use computers to capture ideas and write things down and remember things for me.
And if I ever need information, I can search for it either in my own documents or my own, you know, database of information or on the internet. Or I just ask the device in my [00:11:00] pocket or attached to my wrist, what the answer to something is. And it tells me, so I don't have to use my brain for storage and just, you know, accumulating all of this stuff, like, uh, like a storage unit.
Um, I can use it for processing power. I can think about things. I, I can think through things that I care about. And, and so much time is spent forcing kids to remember things they can search for. Hm. Well,
Mike: [00:11:26] the thought that just struck me with that is your, your barometer for how smart you are, where you're at.
If you're, if you're taught in that way, or you're taught to value, memorization is how many things you remember? I was never good at remembering things. And I always felt like I should know all these, remember these things, you know, and. That, that, that was a detriment to my confidence. Right? As opposed to you, you twist it and say, no, your brain is for these processing things to be thinking about these things, to solve these problems.
You know, you shouldn't have to worry about things [00:12:00] because even the things that are naturally your, you should remember, or you use often, you typically remember anyways, even if you're not forced to. Like I was an engineer. I went to school to be an engineer. It's like,
Sean: [00:12:12] instead of
Mike: [00:12:12] sitting down and memorizing all these formulas, you just use them a lot.
So you just kind of recall them.
Sean: [00:12:16] Right.
Mike: [00:12:17] But you're not forcing yourself to remember every single one you're saying, no, I need to think about how I can use these in a way that I can get the result I need.
Sean: [00:12:25] So you're holding yourself as well. It's like, you don't have to remember every single. Function and syntax because you can just look it up.
And of course you do remember the things you use on a frequent basis, but you don't have to. It's more important that you learn how to think that you learn how to solve problems. And that happens when, when we simply, uh, enable kids to work on things they're already passionate about. It just happens naturally.
Mike: [00:12:55] But when you say you need to learn how to think, like, how's that going to be on the test? How has that, how [00:13:00] is that going to be on the test? How am I going to be tested on this? How to think thing that you speak of Sean, like what's actually gonna be on the test like that. That's the mentality that are taught.
It's like, that's crazy.
Sean: [00:13:13] Cause it w we care. We, we teach people to care more about. Having the right answers instead of asking the right questions, it's a lot easier to just tell me what the right thing to say is what is the right answer I need to put on the test. All you're doing is setting yourself up to be replaced by a robot, but you need to learn how, how to think and how to determine what problems are are interesting.
What problems are worth solving, what questions are or worth asking right now? .
Mike: [00:13:45] Yeah, absolutely.
Sean: [00:13:47] So
Mike: [00:13:47] I think, I truly think it's a, it's a Dawn of a new era for education, you know, for. Um, primary education, I'll say, um, and, and higher education, obviously that's, that's being very disrupted right now, but, [00:14:00] um, which I'm real excited about.
And I think it's cool to see it like decentralized in a lot of ways, you know, you have these like different startups that are saying, Hey, we see this problem. We see how the current solution is not working and we're attacking it in a certain way. And just the same as we were just saying, like each kid has, has their own interests.
Each person's going to gravitate towards one of these type of solutions because the model just works for them and how they learn and maybe how their kids are, where they're located, what access technology they have, what comfort level. And that is like to me, a really cool, you know, so, all right. So let's switch gears a little bit.
Um, so tell me about, tell me about your business journey a little bit, give it like, give us a high level overview, because I know that where I first heard of you. Was in your learn lettering course. And I don't remember how I came across it. Exactly. This was gotta be five years ago. I don't know when you launched that, but
Sean: [00:14:59] yeah, [00:15:00] like go to this guy, Sean West,
Mike: [00:15:01] like he's cool.
And then I think I downloaded like a free thing and I obviously wasn't, I didn't buy the whole thing cause I wasn't going to go into that. But then I started following your podcast and just got really into all the stuff you were doing. So to give us the background a little bit
Sean: [00:15:13] there. Yeah. So before that I had a couple, couple of businesses, computer repair, and then I started doing repair for people who had businesses.
And then they started asking me if I could work on their website. And so I learned how to do that and then ended up growing that and working with a partner for several years, we ran a firm and on the side I was enjoying. Drawing letters just as a hobby, but that ultimately became the thing that I focused on because I started getting demand from that.
I was just drawing for fun, just kind of posting it online early Instagram days. And, um, just every day I would draw something and share it. And nobody really cared for two years. But after showing up every day for two [00:16:00] years, suddenly it seemed like my work was being noticed and people started caring and.
Asking me to do custom work, or if they could buy t-shirts with my designs or posters and stuff. And so that eventually became the full thing and that's what I focused on. And then people wanted to learn how, how to do what I was doing and how do I make a living as a hand lettering artist. And so I put out my first course on that learn lettering, as you mentioned.
And in that, I kind of found that as much as I enjoyed the art, I liked. Teaching the business side of art and, and helping people figure out how, how could they do something they enjoyed doing for a living. So just sharing everything that I was learning started starting the podcast, Shawn West podcast, just.
Sharing what I was learning as I went and people were getting a lot out of that. And I just, I felt so much fulfillment from that. Helping people get unstuck with their creative passions and how to make money from that start a business on their own [00:17:00] that I just leaned into that completely. And so now where I'm at now is like more of a focus of.
Helping people figure out how to take the thing that they actually enjoy doing and make money from it in a way that is sustainable from how do I price my work to, how could I sell products or teach what I know, just deconstructing that for people making it simpler. And then most recently, uh, starting an agency for people.
So beyond just telling people how to do the work, I get people asking me, Hey, can you do the work for me? And so we started this. Agency that helps people take their long form videos and turns it into these shorter clips for social media. So that's kind of where we're at today is focusing on that. We call it the daily content machine.
Mike: [00:17:47] Yeah, no. When I saw that, when I saw that daily content machine, I was one of the things that flashed in my mind is there's these services that will, that I've heard about that will help non-fiction authors [00:18:00] write a book. And the way that I understand them is there's like this download of information to have, and it's through the course of maybe some video calls or some, some long form conversations.
And they're basically like sucking the knowledge out of them to then turn into a book. But then that's kind of what you're doing to some degree. It's like, at least this is my interpretation, correct me if I'm wrong, because it's like, okay, okay, Sean, I know this skill you're, you've helped me realize that it's monetized bubble and here's the fundamental things, how I should approach that.
But I, I'm kind of stuck. Like there's a lot of work involved in that I can't connect all of these dots and you're saying, Hey. Let's go straight, the book, let's go straight your business. You know, it goes form your business and you're sucking all of that knowledge out of them and saying, wait, here's these fundamental things that never change and let's do that.
And, and with the daily conduct machine, it's interesting that when I saw you pitch that having followed you for so long, it's like, Hey, he's actually has done this. You know, it's not just a theoretical thing. Hey, this shit could work, [00:19:00] which most marketing things are kind of like our marketing firms that aren't really proven are kind of like that.
What would you just do those slices up? You need to do content marketing, you know, it's like,
Sean: [00:19:07] no, this is like a
Mike: [00:19:08] coordinated approach specifically for individual creators, because that's what you, you were, you
Sean: [00:19:13] know, so it's is really cool. It's very similar. Like you said to the, the nonfiction book service, you know, where you're downloading and really it's a, it's a distillation process where say you, you went on this, you know, weekend retreat where this company is going to just interview you and record everything you say and transcribe it and go through it and figure out what's relevant.
What's not relevant. Oh, he went on a tangent here that doesn't need to be included in the book. You know, th those are the kinds of things they're thinking through. Similarly with the daily content machine, we're taking your long form content and, and we're transcribing everything you say, and we're scrubbing through it using like my proprietary methods.
I've, I've just turned. The way I've done everything myself into [00:20:00] processes and trained people on how to do it. What is a clippable moment? What is something that would work this two minute segment right here? What, how could this work without the context of everything else that was said in this 60 minute conversation?
You know, those are the things that we think through and like, what's irrelevant. What should we remove? Obviously the filler words to make people look good, but even this tangent here, does this add to the point or the takeaway of the clip? What are we trying to say here? What, what is the message? Who is, who is this for?
Who's our client's target audience. And so we filter that. Um, we filter everything through that to come up with what the title should be. So we also write the titles. So that's kind of what sets us apart is actually finding the good stuff in your long form content and then editing it in, in an engaging way and titling it in a way that people actually want to click and keep watching.
Yeah,
Mike: [00:20:54] no, I think that's really important because it's a, it's a more robust service than just saying, find me 32nd [00:21:00] clips, you know, in this long video. And it's like, wow.
Sean: [00:21:04] Cause it was for me, like the end result had to be, I want to show up on camera with a microphone and talk for an hour and then I want to press stop and be done.
And that's it. Like everything else has to have don't don't come back and ask me what template do you want to use? Don't come back and ask me what timestamp don't come back and ask me what title, like, handle all of it. So, you know, I just spent the past year, like coming up with that process and, and I've found that other people want this as well.
It's like, they don't want the full-time job of figuring out what the clips should be on top of the full-time job they already have. It's like, you know, they don't want to have to hire a video editor who asked them a bunch of questions. Cause it's like, I'm trying to do other work, like do it for me, you know, I know that's what I want.
And so I, I kind of reverse engineered that, uh, with the service. So have you
Mike: [00:21:54] found that people that are enticed by your service are, um, [00:22:00] constrained by their, um, uh, desire for detail or hyper? Um, madness of has to be per their, their perfectionism.
Sean: [00:22:10] Not our clients. Um, and, and just to be Frank, because by, by the time you get to this level, you understand that's the wrong way to, and I know that's, I say that having been someone who was stuck at that, at that point for years, Like as someone who is an artist at heart, who, who is creative, who has an eye for design and like who has written a lot of words and, and edited, you know?
And like, I want to be involved because I feel like if I am, it will be better. And, and no one's going to do it as well as me because they don't care as much as I do. And that is what I call a superhero syndrome. And that's what holds people back for so long. And it's, it's a, it's a glass ceiling you have to break through.
It's, it's something you have to learn and level up. With, but once you do it's total freedom. When you realize the [00:23:00] 20 things you do that you think, Oh, you know, I have to do all of these because no, one's going to care as much. Well, if you delegate them to different people and this person has two or three of the things, and this person has one and this person has the other eventually, because they only have two things to focus on instead of your 20, they'll not only do it as well as you, but they'll surpass you.
Cause it was their focus. So yeah, the people who are at the level of wanting. To, to hire a service like ours. That's how they're thinking. And if they're not thinking that way, I don't take them on as a client. Yeah.
Mike: [00:23:34] So I've already surpassed that they've gotten over that hump to some degree.
Sean: [00:23:37] Yeah.
Mike: [00:23:39] Yeah. I, I definitely, I, I see that point 110%.
I think what I was also curious about is the. The differentiation of the value you provide beyond just a very simplistic video editing service or something, right? Like there's that, there's that nuance the, um, attention to [00:24:00] detail, contextual knowledge of. You know, what makes a value or valuable content and all of that, like all that experience you're leveraging that people see, but that could have been the hurdle from that.
They need someone like you, and they don't want to just hand it off to some person like fiber or something to like, just chop it up. Cause they're like this guy doesn't really know what I'm trying to achieve. Um, but you offer just that added value.
Sean: [00:24:22] That is a challenge for me is the differentiation. Cause it just at face value.
Cause you, you want to simplify yourself to the point where you're memorable, right? We, we take your long form content. We turned it into short clips for social media. You know that that's a nice sentence that gets someone's attention, but there's, there's more to it. So like I've, I've kind of distilled it down to, um, a little bit of a longer sentence that kind of does it succinctly.
So it is. We find the best moments from your long form videos and turn them into short clips. Then we write engaging titles and add flawless captions [00:25:00] that does a little bit better of a job in saying like, we find the best moments, but I do have to go out of my way to really emphasize, like, this is what makes us different.
Nobody else is doing this part. They're just saying, all right, tell us where you want to trim and we'll trim the in and the out point it's like no, w w w the end result has to be. That you show up and record and press stop, and then magic comes out the other end, like your job is done at that point.
Mike: [00:25:25] You guys are like, you're trying to get the N the sticky sound bites to get into your audience's head.
Like you said something a long time ago that said show up every day for two years, that's like lodged in my brain. When I talk to people, I'll tell them that they're like, Oh, I want to do this. I'm like, just go freaking do it. And just go do it while no one is, is paying attention while no one is like giving you a like, you know, and, and you're going to find out a lot about
Sean: [00:25:54] yourself because you're either going to
Mike: [00:25:56] do it or you're not.
And if you don't do it, then you have to say, Oh, I didn't really [00:26:00] want it. You know, or something of that. It's like, but that's a sticky sound bite that, that somehow got through your filtering. Or maybe you just said it in a podcast. I don't even know, but you, but you said it over and over again, this wasn't like a one-time thing.
It was a recurring thing that I'm like. That's like a philosophy of Sean West, right. It was like a core value or about business, but it's like, it's a sticky sound bite and now let's do a pocket. I'll have a sticky soundbite. That'll stick in my head. And I'm like, yeah, I'll regurgitate that later. You know?
And it's it's um, yeah, it, it's just interesting because I feel like there's people that do that. Well, you know, Jason freed, right? The guy that, and David Hunter, my hands on those guys that founded Basecamp.
Sean: [00:26:43] He, they
Mike: [00:26:44] write a lot in there really prolific. And one of the things that they said is if you have an important message to say, be prepared to say it over and over and over again.
And, um, they said something else about, you know, he said he doesn't, he doesn't record any Jason frees that he doesn't [00:27:00] record customer feedback because we don't have like a backlog because if I hear enough customers saying it it's everyone's yeah. It'll resurface like multiple times. Um, And so it's like, something like that.
It's like being able to say it over and over again. It's it's like, that's an ethos of like Shawn West. So anything you put out, it's like kind of always wrapping back to some of those core ideas, which is like super interesting. And I feel like. Maybe I've gone on too much of a rant here, but there's two things.
I think it play off of like creators. Like they want always say something new when it's and you do something you say too. I think there's not really a lot of new ideas. There's new, um, ref uh, contexts that you're putting them in or, um, perspectives or whatever, but the idea is not always new and that's okay.
You know, and instead you should focus on finding what are those core ideas are, those things you teach and just saying them over and over again, other forms of content, all this stuff. Obviously, this is all the stuff you say. I'm just telling you like, but it's, it's, it's, it's interesting because I think [00:28:00] those are the things that are holding people back from actually saying that over and over again, because they think they should be novel.
They don't really know how to say it over again. You know, it's like, there's these, these barriers that I see your service being able to provide to some degree,
Sean: [00:28:13] you know? Well, it, yeah, it's, it's funny you say that because we hear this a lot as, as almost a hesitation from. Prospective clients for our daily content machine service.
It's like, they're actually worried about saying something too much and you know, everything I, I heard you just say, and I appreciate you saying that because it confirms to me what I've communicated. I've only communicated that, which I hear out of other people's mouths. If I don't hear my message out of someone else's mouth, I haven't communicated it.
I've just said it it's, it's, it's a message in a bottle. Did I ever make it, did anyone ever open it? Did they find it? You know, we're just projecting radio waves into space or are we communicating? Well, we don't know where we're broadcasting, but we don't know if we're [00:29:00] communicating. And so everything I heard you just say, I've said hundreds and hundreds of times, and really the only things that make it through.
Are the things I've said hundreds of times. And so if you don't feel blue in the face about your message, nobody's hearing it. Absolutely. Nobody's hearing it. You have to repeat it. And so just to set, set, some people free on that, maybe, um, you know, my, my philosophy is magic of seven. It takes people seven times hearing new information in order to retain it.
And the cool thing is. The seventh time you hear that new information is when it will click for you and you will attribute the value of that information to the seventh source. So if Gary V says something six times, but you said something similar in your own words, and that was the seventh time for someone they're going to be like, I remember that thing Mike told me, you know, you're, you're the average of the five [00:30:00] people you spend the most time.
And you're like, that's that wasn't me. But, uh, you know, someone's going to remember it as. You know, Mike, Mike said this, uh, so if you're ever worried, like, Oh, someone else said it, someone else said at first, someone else said it better. Like, just keep saying it, you know, like you said, there's nothing new under the sun.
Everything's a remix, there's new contexts. There's there's new times. Um, there's new, uh, You have unique perspectives, but there's also new combinations of things. You know, when you take something that's been said a lot, but you combine it with something else that's new and relevant. Uh, it can be insightful for someone.
So I never, I never hesitate repeating myself because number one, there's a lot of noise. It's hard to break through the algorithms and, and just all the posts and everything that's going on. But, but second, so, so people don't see everything. Yeah. You're like, I already already said this before already said that they're not seeing a promise, but secondly, even if someone sees something multiple [00:31:00] times, it, it takes many times of hearing the same information to get it, you know?
So you want to contribute as many tokens into the magic of seven box to create these aha moments for people.
Mike: [00:31:13] Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. And to wrap it or back to, to. Fatherhood it's like more is caught than taught kind of philosophy. I mean, it's, there's, you need to be repeating yourself over and over again in action.
And indeed, um,
Sean: [00:31:29] it, tell me, tell me about more is caught than taught
Mike: [00:31:33] more. What you actually do is, is what they're caught. I think, I think that's the phrase me, I'm saying it wrong, but it's like, what you actually do is the message, as opposed to what you say. Moore's caught, like what's thrown at you then taught just like talk about right.
Like
Sean: [00:31:47] yeah, they're watching, they're saying watch you.
Mike: [00:31:50] Yeah. Like that. My mantra on fatherhood and what I'm constantly asking myself is how, how am I actually investing in myself to pursue excellence [00:32:00] in, in fitness, in business and in my faith and in all of these other things. Because I know that there's a trick there's trickle down parenting kind of thing is, is the philosophy, right?
Sean: [00:32:10] Um,
Mike: [00:32:10] not to say I shouldn't be investing actively my kids, but you, if you're, it's way more impactful just to be the example than it is to just come up with the next sermon, you know, for your, for your kids. And I don't think that's understood enough. Um, and I think that, um,
Sean: [00:32:31] I think it's,
Mike: [00:32:32] it's unfortunate because a lot of parents that are overworked or they're just busy with, you know, they have a job, they got kids, they got also other stuff that they don't invest in themselves.
They invest in themselves last because they feel selfish
Sean: [00:32:45] about that.
Mike: [00:32:45] And these are good and intentional, you know, good intending fathers that what the downstream effect of
Sean: [00:32:52] that though
Mike: [00:32:53] is
Sean: [00:32:53] you don't have any you're
Mike: [00:32:54] well is empty. You know, you can't, and then you can't be doing these things that, and then you end up.
[00:33:00] Sean: [00:32:59] Living out
Mike: [00:33:00] mediocrity, like in how you treat yourself and what you do and that's, what's caught, you know, and that's, that's just, that's just tragic. That's just unfortunate, you know,
Sean: [00:33:10] and even further is, is like potential resentment too. Because when, when you're not putting yourself first in terms of taking care of yourself, so you can take care of your family longterm and you're, you're.
You're putting them first, but you know, as we've said, not quite in the right way, it can, you can build up this resentment in that you start to see your family as, as the thing that is getting in the way of you taking care of yourself, be that through some kind of recuperation or downtime or recharging or whatever, you start to see your family as the obstacle to that, when really it's on you, it's on you to take care of yourself first.
So that, like the reason you're putting them ahead of yourself in the short-term is like, it feels selfish to take that time. [00:34:00] And it's, you can kind of hide behind like, well, look, I'm putting them first, you know, I'm doing the right thing, but if long-term that ends up in you resenting them. Or blaming them for you not getting the time and then burning out and then really not being able to take care of anyone the way you want to.
It's not a good place. Yeah.
Mike: [00:34:19] Very detrimental. And I think the first example you first learned that in marriage is the first step I think. And then you learn it in parenting and it's like to another level. Um, and it's just a,
Sean: [00:34:35] I don't
Mike: [00:34:35] think doing that in a healthy way is taught enough.
Bad that are actually over investing in themselves. Like they're, they're not even investing in their kids to, you know, like that's also an issue, you know? So, so I think that, um, it's just not taught how to do that. Well, I guess, so you, you said [00:35:00] you mentioned burnout. Um, so I want to hear a little bit about, um, your journey to taking, I think, a sabbatical year.
Sean: [00:35:06] Is that correct? Yep. That's this year 2020. Yeah. for a sabbatical year. Tell me about it. We were, we were planning to travel the world and we moved out of our house. Didn't have a house or a car backpacks just hit the road and got a couple of months in and then pandemic. So it was definitely interesting situation there.
Um, we've since. Settled down. Um, we decided to move to Boise and, and we're loving it here so far, but, uh, no more world travel for a bit, but leading up to this point, um, you know, like we said, not, not a father, a lot of, uh, uh, literally a dozen younger siblings, however, um, there there's, there's some similarities to having a team.
It's not, it's not the [00:36:00] same thing at all. Um, but it's, it's, you have to take care of people, you know, when you're the business owner and you have, at one point I had eight full-time employees, you know, they're on the payroll and you need to make sure they get, they get paid and they can take care of their families.
And so I, you know, to connect this, to what we're talking about, not putting yourself first, I had hired people to do great work. But around a business model that wasn't working no fault of their own. Uh, but it was my fault. And so the work they were doing was not resulting in the money that that would pay them to do the work.
And so I, on the side was doing other things to make money. To pay them because I'm thinking I have to take care of the family. Right. I have to take care of my team. I have to take care of my people. It all falls on me, you know, I'm the breadwinner, so to speak. And so I'm just [00:37:00] busting my butt, like just running myself into the ground for years.
Really. It's just like every two weeks I need another 15 grand, like everyday I need another thousand dollars. And like the work these eight people are doing is not producing that. I need to go drum up that income and it never ends. And so you're just on this hamster wheel and like you're running yourself into the ground and I was just numb and like, I didn't feel the water in the shower, you know, hitting me.
It was just, I completely numbed myself out because it's like, you know, what do you do if your kid's stuck under the car? Like. You lift up the car, you find a way, and if it feels like your, your arms are going to come out of their sockets, will you keep holding until they crawl out from underneath the car?
You don't know where you find the energy you just, you just do. Right. It was like that, you know, you just have to numb yourself out to take care of people. But that was the wrong way to go about it. Like I, and of [00:38:00] course it ultimately reached a breaking point. I ultimately reached a breaking point that resulted in my being burned out and depressed for two years.
And I'm still not a hundred percent like maybe 98% or something even now three, four, four years later. Like it takes a long time to recover from that. And I had to let everyone go. You know, th th the inevitable happened. I just, I just delayed it. I just kept pushing it, pushing, pushing, pushing, but, but if you keep pushing yourself, you're, you're gonna reach that breaking point.
Now, I had done these, um, seventh week sabbaticals because I recognize my workaholic tendencies some years ago. Like I was just working, working, working. I didn't have like good friend relationships. Everyone that I would have called a friend was on payroll. Yeah. You know, and, uh, and I was like, it's fine.
You know, it's, everything's great. You know, but like I was sitting at my desk all day. I wasn't even going outside. I was exercising. I would skip [00:39:00] meals. Like I was just working cause like, who else is going to do the work and make sure people get paid. And it was bad, you know? And I don't know how to tell people how not worth it.
Burnout is. Without them having to like, experience it themselves, like to realize how, just how detrimental it is. But if you haven't experienced burnout where you just feel like you're done, there's nothing you don't want to get out of bed. You know, you just feel like you've got nothing in you. Um, but you feel like you might be headed that way.
The litmus test I have for you is if you're asking the question, am I burned out? It's already happening. Like that is your warning sign. It's like, stop right there. If you're even asking the question it's happening right now, like you're in the process of burning out. You've got a pull back and I know it feels like you don't have the bandwidth to take care of yourself because everyone else is relying on [00:40:00] you.
But if you don't do it, If you don't take that time to reflect and recharge and rest and, and whatever you need to do, whatever that looks like, you know, for, for me, I call it a sabbatical, you know, but, um, if you don't do that burnouts in your future and, and it's, it's devastating, it can cause you to, it can cause you to lose your passion.
The thing that you've always loved your whole life. Like you can actually lose it and it never comes back. Maybe you find another passion, but like you risk killing the one you have right now. And you, you you're gonna pay the price. You're going to pay the price of years of recovery.
Mike: [00:40:40] Um,
Sean: [00:40:42] how do you,
Mike: [00:40:43] um,
Sean: [00:40:45] I think that's
Mike: [00:40:45] really wise advice.
If you, if you even are asking yourself the question you're on the road to it, or you're in SA on the spectrum. How, how do you force yourself? Or what does that even look like? If you're [00:41:00] not, and I understand your story was you got to that point, right? You, you reached the breaking point, but it say a, say that's a 10 step process.
And I realize I'm on step, like three, four, maybe five. I'm not at a 10 yet. How do you, what can you do? You talked about a seven every seventh week or something sabbatical. And what, how do you even find, I feel like sometimes I've experienced this. I feel like I'm on that spectrum to some degree. And it's like, can I
Sean: [00:41:28] revise what I said?
Because the way I like to put the way I like to put it is if you're asking the question, am I burning out? You already are like, so, so it's not like you're beginning the process of eventually becoming burned out, like. Right. No, right now you're burned out and it's only going to get worse. So see it as a light switch instead of a 10 step scale.
If you're asking the question, the light switch has been flicked.
[00:42:00] Mike: [00:42:01] So then what do you do? So then you're not, you're not at a crisis point where it's like, I don't even want to get out of bed. Right. You're not like at a complete breaking point. You're like, okay, acknowledge this step back.
Sean: [00:42:13] Assess or
Mike: [00:42:16] what did you recommendation on?
What to what's the next step
Sean: [00:42:18] there? Yeah. If you, you, if you keep going in the same direction, that's, that's in your future. So we don't want to do that. Um, the solution I've found is you have to schedule the break or it won't happen and it has to be a recurring break. So if you're like me where it's like.
You have two modes on and off, it's like, you're, you're obsessed or you don't care, you know, you're, you're all in or you're nothing. Um, and it's like, you know, you don't know how to be, what, what balanced or in-between or like, what is slowed down? It's like, I'm doing this or I'm not, you know, if, [00:43:00] if you can relate to that, the, the position I found myself in was like, I don't know how to slow down.
I don't know how to. Uh, take it easy, you know? And so I had to have a break, like the thing that I am doing right now that I'm going all in on is a break. This is my entire focus is a break, you know, I'm taking off. Um, so for myself, I decided to do something because I was really feeling that burnout is like, I need something more than just like a weekend getaway.
And I had heard of this idea of a sabbatical in the academic sense of like taking a year off every seventh year. But I chose to find something in between just a play on numbers, which is, you know, seven days a week, seven years. Like what if I just took off a week, every seventh week. So I would work six weeks and then take a sabbatical week.
And, and I started doing that in 2014. And I've never, I've never looked back it's because it's been such a game changer for me to the point [00:44:00] where, like, I started to ask myself the question, like, how do I make sure my team is getting work done while I'm on my sabbatical? And then I realized, well, do I believe in this concept or not this concept of like investing in deep rest and recharging so that we do better work when we're on.
And I'm like, I do believe in it. And so I decided I'm going to pay my employees. To take off every seventh week as a sabbatical. This is your job. Your job is to take the week off and just know that like people aren't robots, we're we're humans. We like to think employees, you give them money and you get this certain output, but like we time to recharge.
And the cool thing is like, they come up with good ideas and they get reinvigorated and they come back. Can we get those seven weeks worth of work done in six weeks? Because we're more focused and energized, so it's not like we actually get less done. We get the same amount done, but we all enjoy this time off.
Now I realize not everyone has the flexibility to do that. You can't just take us seventh week sabbatical, you [00:45:00] know, especially if you have a job. And so what I recommend is doing a weekend sabbatical. So take the last weekend of every month. And, you know, just say it could be Saturday, Sunday, it could be Sunday, Monday, or a Friday, Saturday, whatever works for your schedule, but just take a couple of days and schedule an event called sabbatical.
Have it span two days, it goes all day. You set it to busy. So you don't book anything there. And you just set that time aside as space. And, and the, the thing that took me two years of sabbaticals to figure out, because I would take these sabbaticals and not feel rested and I wouldn't feel recharged. I figured out why it's, because I was treating it as free time instead of margin.
And the difference is when you look at your calendar, you know, like when you asked me if I could do this podcast interview, you know, I look at my calendar and I find a spot that doesn't have anything on it, time that I am free. And [00:46:00] I filled it up. That's what we do. We look at our calendar, we look at free time and we fill it up.
So you don't want this sabbatical, this weekend sabbatical to be seen as free time. See it as margin. No, I have a thing scheduled. It's like, if you're going to a conference, I'm going to be at this conference on this weekend, you schedule the conference and then you don't schedule anything else there.
Right. It's the same thing. And so instead of. Scheduling. Cause I would look forward in the calendar and be like, Ooh, I got a sabbatical week coming up. So someone would say, you want to do a podcast interview and be like, yeah, look at all this free time. I got I'll do that here. I'll do this there. And then I get to this week that was supposed to be restful and I'd have this list of obligations.
And I've found that it's obligations that zap your energy. It's not actually the thing you do. The thing you do is not in and of itself inherently work or play. There's nothing that is work about writing or drawing or programming. It's having to do the thing, because we've all had that time in the night or [00:47:00] the weekend where we're making our own thing.
You're writing a story. You're excited about. You're drawing a picture you're you're enthusiastic about, or you're coding an app that you've always wanted. That solves a problem for you. You're excited. It gives you energy, but if it's for a client, you have to draw this picture and you have to write this report by the deadline.
It takes energy. So the only difference. In terms of whether something gives you energy or takes it from you is whether you have to do it or you're choosing to do it. It's that obligation factor. So I came up with one rule for my sabbaticals, which is don't schedule anything. The goal being total freedom from obligation.
Now, does that mean you go into the sabbatical and all you can do is stare at a white wall? No, it means when you get to this time, this margin you've set, set aside. It, you enter into a period of pure possibility. So you can say yes to anything you want in the moment, not [00:48:00] for the future version of yourself.
And so kind of fast forwarding here, I've applied the same, uh, as to the best of my ability, the same thinking to the sabbatical year. Which is like trying to keep myself free from obligations. And so the way I've been able to do that on a, on a scale, as big as a year is by employing an idea. I stole from Warren buffet, which is this 24 hour rule.
If you try to meet with Warren buffet and you call up his secretary and you say, I'd like to meet with Warren Buffett in three weeks. You can't do it because he won't schedule things outside of a 24 hour window. So you want to meet with him in three weeks, you have to call up in 20 days and say, I'd like to meet with Warren tomorrow.
And he'll either say yes or no. And, and I thought that was so great. And so I've adopted this and it's. It's resulted in my quote, unquote, missing out on some opportunities where people aren't able to schedule within that short of a window, but it keeps [00:49:00] me freed up to where, when I say yes to this interview here, which I did within roughly a 24 hour window.
I I'm able to bring this energy that is different from when I feel like another podcast interview I have to do instead. It's like, I know I chose to do this. I wanted to do this. I get to do this.
Mike: [00:49:17] That's super fast. Okay. Cause we were exchanging about that. I was shocked that you wanted to book it so soon outright I'll usually send a Calendly link and someone will be like book it for what a week out.
Sean: [00:49:28] But
Mike: [00:49:28] the recency. Around the booking and being like excited and thinking about the guest is so diff it was so different that there's a quick booking and I've had quick bookings before, and it's the same thing, but it wasn't intentional. Right. It would just happened to they pick the next day. So it was like, Hey, reach out.
Yeah. Want to do it. And it's like, Oh yeah. Then here's the things I want to talk to Sean about. Or, you know, this is what I want to mention. They're all on the top of my head. It's not like, then they go away and then I'm like, Oh, I got to talk to Shawn. Shoot. There's like 10 things I wanted to talk to them about.
Yeah. I wrote them down [00:50:00] somewhere and it's like an obligation. I might have a list somewhere, but I got a reference that it's like, it's all top of mind. And I'm genuinely excited about it because I don't really talk to anyone. I'm not genuinely excited about talking about buy by rule. So that's super fascinating.
You bring that up.
Sean: [00:50:13] I didn't even think about it from your perspective. Cause obviously that's, it's a, it's a benefit there too. I was that's that's really good. That's insightful. Cause this is totally,
Mike: [00:50:23] I mean, it's not like you're a client. It's like, Oh, I have to talk. I'm about to sell this deal. It's like, I'm genuine.
There's already a genuine interest, but it's heightened because it's not delayed and it becomes an obligation. It's like, yeah, I definitely wanna talk to them. But I mean, there's five other things I've really need to do today that had popped up between the time when I scheduled that. And now, you know, So then it robs that actually the event of its joy, because it's not location.
So
Sean: [00:50:46] that's interesting, two years, two years to figure it out. Cause it's like I set aside this time, that's a sabbatical for me so I can recharge. I get there. And there's these things that I scheduled that passed me, [00:51:00] thought future me would love to do. And it's like, well, I chose to do those things. So of course I should love them.
And so you're like, I guess I got to do these and you do them and you come out and you're like, why do I not feel recharged? It took me two years to figure it out. I
Mike: [00:51:15] would just chalk that up to, I would say I do chalk that up to, Oh, I just don't know how to relax, you know, th that's the natural and, and I, I would, I very much identify with how you are.
It's like, it's like, I'm either all on. Right. And I'm not, and it's like, I I've been told, I don't know how to relax or do nothing. Right. But that's, that's then the message you give yourself, or you, you say to yourself, you know, well, I just don't know how to relax, you know? Yeah. That sort of thing. And that's, that's interesting.
Sean: [00:51:45] Yeah. So just give your, give your future self a gift, trust the process, you know, take, take what took me two years to learn and just, you know, and enjoy it. Enjoy the fact that it is going to be recharging for you. It is going to be [00:52:00] restful for you. Just trust the process though. Don't schedule anything, go into that period of time.
Whether you want to take a week, you want to take a month. You want to take just a weekend. And just go into that time with nothing scheduled, pure possibility. And you can say yes to anything that hits you in the moment or say no, because what you might, this is the most important thing I think is we don't realize how much we need rest until we give ourselves the opportunity to rest.
Because we're, we're just operating on a chronic low level, most of us in society. And so we're just pushing, pushing, pushing, you know, and trying to make it to the weekend. And okay, it's Monday, let's do this again. We're just pushing but low level, there's that kind of chronic burnout. And we don't really know how much, which we actually need rest til we give ourselves the opportunity.
So you get there to that week. You, you scheduled a month from now, it's going to be your sabbatical break. And your whole, body's just going to be like, Oh my gosh. Like, I [00:53:00] just want to, like, I just want to lay on the couch and watch a show or, you know, like, I just want to read a book or watch some videos, or like, you just want to like do nothing and it's going to feel unproductive and you'll probably feel guilty.
It's hard to get that guilt free, free time unless you schedule it. And you say, look, my job is to have no obligations. Like th that's the point here, and then you, you kind of give yourself the freedom to, to unwind.
Mike: [00:53:28] Well, I'm even thinking about that in my own life. And it's like, you know, sometimes my wife and I are like, Oh, we don't have anything this coming weekend.
And we're like, well, let's just relax. And. Um, even if it's like a mini sabbatical with us, uh, apart from activities, you know, our family, sometimes our family would be like, Hey, we need a weekend, but we're not often good at sometimes we are of actually capping it. So what you have is you, you have a Saturday, you're like, Hey, we don't have any on a Saturday.
And sometimes we'll get up. And I love to have like an extended breakfast. Like we don't have anything to do. We're just like, we just lounge around and I can do the dishes for awhile. You know, it's [00:54:00] like that to me is really actually relaxing, but we don't say, Hey, we're going to do this for the whole day.
Instead of it's like, Oh, we got some time in the afternoon. Let's go run some errands or something, you know, it's like, so there's kind of that looming of, okay, we should snap out of this as opposed to no, this whole day. And then we'll schedule that other stuff for Sunday. But we're due Saturday is this?
Sean: [00:54:19] Yeah. It's deep. The difference between 15 minute conversations you have and being an hour in on this, this recording we're doing right now, it's, there's just a different. Level of depth that goes beneath the service that you don't get, unless you really give yourself like dedicate the whole day. You know, I hear people say like, Oh, you know, I don't really need to like take a break or a sabbatical or a day off.
Like, I've got my, my Sunday afternoon, one hour reflection time. And I review for the upcoming week. And it's like, it's just, it doesn't, you know, this, you you've taken a two week vacation before, maybe you're on the beach and it's. You couldn't just take off one weekend [00:55:00] day for 14 weekends and get the same effect.
It's that depth of like going all in and having that total focus, that, that total time off where you can actually unwind.
Mike: [00:55:12] Yeah. And it's interesting doing like a weekend thing because you bring up like the vacation thing
Sean: [00:55:18] and. We we're big on like,
Mike: [00:55:20] not planning much during a vacation. So it's that thrill of, of just, Hey, we're Alondra and let's go, just find a place to eat.
You know, like, it's not like we'd identified any place, like just dry round. Like it's the whole UN there's no obligations is what makes a vacation so great. And it does take a few, it does take a few days sometimes, you know, it takes, it takes a few days to unwind and you're like, Oh, I should be doing this.
Or what are the, what's my mind still spinning on? Um,
Sean: [00:55:46] so I think I remember early, early in, like, so I've been married about 10 years early on in marriage. Like some of our first vacations were like super planned. We have this itinerary and it was like, yes, saw the statue of Liberty, you know, and check off all these things.
[00:56:00] And now it's, you know, a decade later it's like, now we just go somewhere and like do whatever in the moment. And it just feels, it feels so much better. Yeah.
Mike: [00:56:11] Well, Sean, thank you so much for sharing, man.
Sean: [00:56:13] I really appreciate it. I enjoyed this. This has been great.
Mike: [00:56:16] Yes. A very important topic. And I, you, I made a statement just a few minutes ago.
You said, I think we're all operating on, on a low-level burnout and I glad you made the distinction around the, the, the light switch because that. It makes it more serious, right? You're not just like, I'm not quite there yet. That's fine. I can get to sick. I usually I know myself, I can get to Nate and I'm good until I get to level eight and it's like, no, you're already there.
You need to get, need to get back on track, you know? Um, which I think is an important topic. And it's, it's, it's also how do you, baby-step it, which I think you outlined a plan for that, which is really, I think, beneficial. So.
Sean: [00:56:55] Well, if, uh, if, if anyone wants more resources on that, uh, [00:57:00] sabbatical.blog, I've been writing stuff, they're working on a book called sabbatical to kind of help people.
Like it sounds so silly. It's like, just take a, take a break, take it easy, just rest. But there's so much more to it. You know, speaking as a recovering workaholic, like there is so much more to it. So I want to like, Break that down, make it easier to help people not waste years. Like I did trying to figure out how to avoid burnout and rest and being frustrated with that process.
So, um, sabbatical.blog is where I'm kind of documenting all of that to help people.
Mike: [00:57:31] Awesome. And we'll definitely link that in the show notes and
Sean: [00:57:34] I think it's,
Mike: [00:57:36] you might see it that way, but it's like, I think it's deep. It's not just taking a break, you know, it's like, there's so much to unpack there that it's like, I think there's, I think it's a message that needs to be.
Broadcast from the hilltops.
Sean: [00:57:48] So yeah, we can like add one more little thing to it. It's, it's two sides of the coin to the sabbatical idea. One is preventing burnout, which is, which is super important, but the other is [00:58:00] unlocking your best ideas, your most creative ideas when you're just pushing, pushing, going, going, you never see the forest for the trees.
You just aren't able, like I wholeheartedly believe that your very best ideas are currently locked up and inaccessible to you. I'm talking about the type of ideas that, that would make you a lot of money, the type of ideas that would, you know, uh, go towards your legacy, the things you would be remembered for, uh, that, that the type of things that would be good for your family.
Those things are locked up as you continue to push, push, push, and you don't get to unlock them until you take a step back. And so that's the other part of sabbaticals, which is like, and both are equally hard to, to explain to people until you've experienced it. It's like. Trust me, you really don't want burnout.
And it's like, yeah, well, what's the big deal. You know, I was like, I'll just bounce back. And it's like, ah, no, you won't. And I don't know how to get you to realize how serious it is and how many years you're going to lose. If [00:59:00] you, if you do burn out, that's a hard thing to sell. Similarly, it's hard to sell your, the best ideas of your lifetime and what you'll be remembered for that contribute to your legacy that are currently locked up, that you could access.
If you take the step back in the form of a break or a sabbatical, it's also hard to sell that, you know? Cause it's like, how can I imagine the best ideas that I've never had? But if you can, that's, that's the benefits of this.
Mike: [00:59:33] I, I can definitely see that. And I, but I think I can see that how the, how impactful it is and the best ideas concept, but I can also see how that's hard for people to grasp, because I don't think there's an understanding there, but.
Um, yeah, no, I think that's a great way to end it. I think that's a great nugget because I think it's, it's untapped potential is the other side of the coin and, um, it kind of [01:00:00] another, I keep getting these thoughts, like, um, I think people know that though. I think like deep down, you know,
Sean: [01:00:08] That,
Mike: [01:00:09] where you're at on, on, in your burnout is actually preventing you from living up to your full potential.
You just don't want to
Sean: [01:00:15] admit. I just realized, I think you're totally right. And also stories help. Like I think there is a subconscious part of us that knows, but then also instead of just this blind faith of like, well, I guess Sean probably wouldn't have spent the past six years paying his employees to take off.
Time for sabbaticals. If it wasn't really good, like, okay, that makes some sense. But like this sabbatical year, I ended up starting this agency that within a couple weeks was a six-figure additional arm of our business. That would have never happened was I, was I not on sabbatical and like I had the bandwidth to think about and conceptualize and, [01:01:00] and work on these ideas and, and it's, it's completely transformed the way I see my business and the way I want to operate when I come back from the sabbatical, because being on sabbatical while I've started, this new business essentially has forced me to, like I tell my team.
Everything has to run without me. You can send me a message. You can send me an email, but you have to expect that I won't reply because I'm on sabbatical. Like being on sabbatical doesn't mean I can't work on a work project. It's just that I have to, I have to be able to choose that and not have it be like, Sean, we need this from you, Sean.
We need this from you because now we're back in obligation land. Yeah, I'm back in work mode and it's, it's taking energy from me, but instead I get to work on the business instead of in it. So whenever I feel like, you know, Hey, let's come up with this new thing and work on processes and, and, you know, like, it's, it's like a fun game for me, but it ensures this is an asset because all along for, so for the past [01:02:00] 15 years, I was just, I was making jobs for myself with my logo.
And thinking that it was a business, it wasn't a business because it doesn't run without me. Yeah. So if it requires me, it's, it's a job, you know? And so being on sabbatical gave me the ideas, gave me the bandwidth to think about and come up with these things and, and force me to build it in such a way that it runs without me so that it can actually be an asset to the point where when I come back from the sabbatical year and a couple of months, Um, I basically don't want to run my business any differently from that ever.
It's like, I I've, I've learned from that, that I need to create things, build things that run without me.
Mike: [01:02:42] Yeah.
Sean: [01:02:43] Yeah.
Mike: [01:02:45] Jobs with my logo. I like that phrase. Well, thanks John. Thanks for being on, man. I thank you for sharing from your heart and, um, just being honest and, and bringing a lot of value. Um, I really appreciate our conversation.
Sean: [01:02:59] Well, thanks so [01:03:00] much for having me. I had a lot of fun. This was good.
Mike: [01:03:03] So radical.blog. I'm also at Sean West on Twitter, but we'll link all that in the show notes so people can find you. So thanks.
Sean: [01:03:10] Thanks again, Mike.
Summary
High education is in crisis. Student debt in the USA is now past $1.6 Trillion and many students are coming out ill-equipped as well as disillusioned. Josh Sabo is trying to help students caught up in this. He is the founder of a non-profit called "The Industry". They help people sort out their careers and life, to develop a plan that sets them up for success in each area.
Where to Find Josh:
- His website: https://www.learntheindustry.org/
Transcription below (may contain typo's...):
[00:00:00] Josh: [00:00:00] and that's, what's so important about our line. We help young people clarify their career path. Just like you said, with those glasses, when it's clear, it's easy, maybe not easy but easier.
You, you know where you're heading. You know, you have a, the detailed plan, our students graduate with a detailed life plan. That means, what am I doing tomorrow the next day, next week, all the way to their end, a vision plan, where they have that house, they have that family, they have that job. That's perfect for them and we help them connect the dots all the way through.
Mike: [00:00:33] Today's episode is all about college and careers. Did you know that the total us student debt is 1.6 trillion with a T trillion dollars. And that the average student holds about $30,000 of debt. Wow. Those are astronomical numbers. Maybe some of those you knew, but nonetheless [00:01:00] daunting. And so there's obviously a large crisis at hand here. And so I talked with Josh
Who's the founder of a non-profit called the industry. And what they do is they work with, , future college students, current college students, and even graduates to sort out their life and help them plan out what the best path is for them. Sometimes that. Includes college. Sometimes it doesn't include college, but they are trying to beat this hat on to prevent students from racking up a bunch of debt, just to figure out they didn't want to do that thing.
So let's jump into the episode with Josh. He shares a little bit about what they are doing now, what the future of the organization is and where they are pro success, not anti college.
welcome to another edition of the Tucson dad podcast. Today. I have the pleasure of speaking with mr. Josh SIBO, who runs the industry.
He's also a good friend of mine. He was a, I [00:02:00] lived with him when I was in college. So we go way back. So Josh, thank you so much for being on the podcast, man.
Josh: [00:02:06] And it's good to be here.
Mike: [00:02:08] So you are. You are disrupting the college kind of plan in a good way, in the sense like what the industry does is it helps people avoid getting into tons of debt.
And just going into colleges cause that's the default, right? Maybe I should let you pitch it. Cause I'm real excited. I love, I love what you're doing, man.
Josh: [00:02:28] I mean, I don't know. I'm not sure if anybody can agree that a bunch of debt is a good thing, unless that debt is going to a degree, that's going to make you more money.
That'll pay it off and make you more money in the end. Uh, it was funny. I think it was Warren buffet that says I wouldn't invest in most kids' college education. So it's gotta be a real investment, but we are not against, we are pro success. We are anti failure. And with the amount of people that are graduating and not using their degree for its intended purpose, the amount of freshmen that are dropping out, I think it's at 36%.
[00:03:00] Um, there was a new study out that 60 something percent of young people are just disappointed with the jobs they have after college. They use their degree for, so the industry is a program that helps young people clarify their career path. Uh, IBM we just partnered with IBM and they said they wanted to partner with us because we have a listic view of education with the individual.
So essentially we'll look at the idea unity of the person, you know, a lot of people say, follow your passion. I say, follow your identity because passion is involved in identity. What's also involved as personality values, experiences, your whole life, all summed up in one semester with the industry. And then we take all that information and put it into three desired paths, three careers that would make sense for the individual.
So when they go to college, they are more. Confident in what they want to be doing. They'll get way better grades. They won't have as near as much anxiety or depression or fear of the future. And there's [00:04:00] just an enormous amount of, of success. So that's, that's what we do.
Mike: [00:04:06] That's awesome. It, to me, it's almost like, sounds like a structured gap year.
You know, when people are like take a gap year and don't go to the default and rack up a bunch of debt, but the gap year is not really structured. Right. And maybe someone's like, well, I'm going to travel and you'll learn a little bit about yourself, but you're not in a structured way where you come out of that way, better off in terms of direction.
Right.
Josh: [00:04:27] This did come from the idea of the gap here. A I consider it a gap year on steroids. One of the things that we didn't want is for students to take a full on gap here because a lot of times students lose their scholarships for college. And so we wanted to make it a three month program. So young people could take it while they're in high school or before they go to college.
Or even after college, we have an enormous amount of 22, 23 year olds going through the program who have degrees and who regret it. They have debt and they have a degree for a career that they don't necessarily want [00:05:00] anymore. So, yeah, it's, it's formulated off of the idea of the gap year. Um, but it's a, it's a gap year on steroids.
Um, we are connecting with is Ireland right now. We're going to have a location in Ireland. We're hoping to have a lot of different locations around the world. So that students can have the option to go travel during this period of time. Maybe extend their time with the industry, go through the program while they're in Ireland to go through the program while they're in New Zealand.
So in the next two years or so, we're going to have that pretty much lined up so that students can come through the program in a different country that they'd like to be in.
Mike: [00:05:35] Yeah, that's amazing, man. And tell me a little bit about like some of the students that come in and, and some of the progress that they make after going through the industry, like they're coming in, like you said that they're, maybe they already have a degree.
Maybe they're in high school, you know? W what, what are the, like, what are the, the pains that they have when they're coming in? And then when they come out and they say, [00:06:00] wow, You know, this is, this is the progress I made. Tell me a little bit about those
Josh: [00:06:02] stories. Confidence. Confidence is the main one. I always like to say, uh, one of my, one of my greatest gifts is to be able to encourage somebody.
And that is to give somebody courage. A lot of people know a little bit about what they'd like to do, but their fears and their limiting beliefs keep them from pursuing those things. So a lot of times we hear this, I'm just going to go college and maybe I'll figure it out there. Uh, it's the safety net.
Um, but I say confidence for young people when they come in, they will, we have them fill out a survey. Uh, how confident do you feel about your future? How confident do you feel in yourself? Uh, but month one is all, like I said is all about identity and we do an enormous amount of mindset. So when a student comes in, a lot of times there'll be feeling insecure, afraid, and when they leave, uh, I'd say that's the greatest thing that happens at the industry is this [00:07:00] self-sufficiency.
Um, self confidence that comes out of our students a hundred percent across the board. That is one of our greatest successes. Um, yeah, it's very powerful for the individual.
Mike: [00:07:13] Yeah. And, um, tell me about colleges is. Maybe would have answered that in some regard, but it seems to me that some people go, if they go to college, just by default, they say, this is what I'm supposed to do.
They're trying to figure out what they want to do. It can actually add to that, right? Because then they're doing something that they're not built for and it doesn't align with their values, values are their strengths. You know, tell me a little bit about the people that have gone through a degree. And then if come out the other side, maybe probably worse off, obviously from a financial standpoint, probably worse off, but worse off psychologically and even just, um, holistically and then have gone through the industry and like how they've transformed.
Josh: [00:07:59] Well, we had a [00:08:00] student that actually went through to become a social worker. And the two things that she said she wanted to go into social work for was because she liked families and she was nice. So she thought, well, social work I'll be able to work with people. So I think she went through six years.
And got like a master. I forget exactly what the details were, but she came back to my wife and I, and she said after she got a job in social work, she goes, I think I'm just, I'm going to kill myself. I've been suicidal. And we said, well, why she goes, I didn't really realize how many families I would be separating with was my, with my degree.
Um, so if we would have gone through that, we also make sure that the careers that they're going into make sense, the career culture a lot, right? A lot of young guys are going into a. Are thinking about going into trades in our program, which is amazing, the amount of young people that we send into trades, but, uh, some of them are really, really kind and those types of things.
And so I have to kind of explain to them that the culture [00:09:00] is a little bit rougher around the edges. Uh, you might want to start your own business in this round so that you can create the culture. Um, but yeah, I forget the question, but, uh,
Mike: [00:09:10] yeah, no, just the stories. I mean, the stories around the transformation that's happened because, um, you, my perception in my experience to some degree in going through college and, and people that have gone through college with you kind of get trapped, like you have so much invested in that degree.
So you have to go down that path and you're blocked. Then into something that doesn't align with how you operate and that's just a huge recipe for disaster. Right. Um, which is so unfortunate because it's like the decisions that were made. We're just by default. They weren't by intentionally saying I want to, and I think one of the things that you say is build your life.
I think it says it on your hat right now. I can read it. It's like, they're not building, they're just reacting. And just following a plan that, you know,
Josh: [00:09:56] for some already laid out for it and
Mike: [00:09:57] laid out. Yeah,
Josh: [00:09:58] exactly. [00:10:00] so yeah, young people go to college and they'll declare a major. And they're two years in spend on this money.
They think, I don't know if I really like this and, but they'll finish it anyways because they're already so invested. So it's a lot of like what you say when they get the degree. They think they have to be in that major, but a lot of times that degree can get them other jobs that they. Might that they might like, and then we'll see young people jump from job to job and still kind of be wandering.
Uh that's one of the things that we do a lot of too is vision. A lot of people ask the question, where do you see yourself in five to 10 years? And when I was in high school. Cool. I didn't, I didn't even have one idea. Yeah. So we'll ask, um, I think they say that most. Most people when they're asked that question, most young young men want to be an NFL football player, an NBA football player, or a basketball player.
Uh, so we asked the question, what, what do you see? Like what do you actually want in detail? Uh, the line is, uh, aim small, Ms. Small. If you aim at a target, very, very tiny, tiny target. There's a very, there's a [00:11:00] very. Small chance that you'll miss the, the, the target entirely. Um, you know, the, the, you know, the Bible says without vision, the people perish, which for an individual, right.
That means they'll just be wandering around without any purpose, without any, uh, without any passions. Um, so vision is a big thing. So we'll ask the questions. We have the whole, the whole worksheet laid out. How many bedrooms do you want in your house? Okay. Do you want a dog? What do you want acreage? Do you want to own your own home or rent in California?
I mean, what is the detail? Like, what do you envision? And so when you're going down this path, w w do you want a spouse? What kind of family culture do you want? Um, you know, we don't do just work on careers. We do, we do work with the entire life. Like you said, it's, it's build your life. So we do a lot with, with what marriage is supposed to look like, how a healthy relationship looks.
Um, so. We go through all that so that when they're on their daily path, every single day, their decisions are almost subconscious [00:12:00] consciously made based off of the vision that they want to have in the future. So that's a big thing for us as a, you know, the fear of the unknown is a major, major element in humanity.
And so when they know what they want in the future, there's a lot less fear. They're making confident decisions. Uh, one of the stories I like to tell the students is, uh, it's a little game. My wife and I used to play called. Called Doogie Dougie. No idea, but I love the sound. She made it up somehow or another.
It relates to Doogie Howser. I don't understand, but it's a fun game. So we were, were we drive in the car and anytime we see a yellow car, whoever hits the ceiling first and says, Doogie gets a point. And so when that was our goal and our vision, I started seeing yellow cars everywhere. You know, when you, when you start thinking about.
Uh, when you see a car with, with like wood coloring on it, you know, what do you know? Like you see that all the time and the same exact thing goes for opportunity. When you have a [00:13:00] strong vision, you know what you're looking for, you know, where you're heading, you're going to start seeing those opportunities everywhere to get to where you want to be.
So decisions wind up being made for you based off of your vision, which eliminates an enormous amount of stress, anxiety, and probably even depression. Wandering, wandering creates depression. Especially, I'm not trying to be, especially in young men when young men are just wandering, it creates a depression, it creates this, um, self image that is that they don't like.
And so when you have a vision, a strong detail vision of your future, uh that's that's gonna eliminate a lot of that.
Mike: [00:13:41] So this is a fi I agree 110% with that, by the way. Um, so this is a fatherhood podcast and I, you know, I know you're a dad, um, and I know that you, you have young kids and your kids weren't that old when you started the, you know, building this whole industry, um, project, how [00:14:00] has that shaped your view on the industry and the cause that you're.
You're chasing because I think it's a noble cause, but now you have real world example of your own children that you're putting in the context. I know you have a large, um, or you have a, you have a long history of, of working with youth to help them through a lot of these things that now are, you're doing an industry.
So you're, you have like a lifetime of experience doing this, but tell me about how maybe it's made more real when you had your own kids. And you're like, wow, this is something that they're going to deal with. I better help them solve it, you know, or walk me through that a little bit.
Josh: [00:14:35] Right. Well, my wife was pressured to go to college when she was in high school.
She went to college and came home of $121,000 of school. We accrued 16,000 more dollars because neither of us could come close to a job that could pay that $2,100 a month payment. So we understand that that debt is, is truly a, a it's a life [00:15:00] crusher. It's a soul crusher. So one is, uh, we don't want our kids to have debt, um, especially with college.
And we also don't want them to have a degree that they're not going to use. So with our kids, a lot of times we're teaching them little, uh, Little lessons about entrepreneurship sales. You know, my, my kids wanted to start selling bracelets. So my oldest started selling bracelets and wanted to start donating them, donating the money to kids that don't have food.
And so we'd work on, okay, how can we make that sign a little better? How can we make that pitch a little bit tighter? Uh, what, what price can we really sell these at? And so she's already developing this. Sales and marketing mind, which I find in most, if not all jobs and careers, sales and marketing is probably are probably the two most valuable skills, especially in the future.
When what they're saying is 60% of jobs are going to be online. Um, so yeah, that's definitely, yeah, the [00:16:00] fact that how we're raising our children, um, especially helping them understand that they don't have to go that route. Um, my daughter might want to be, uh, Might want to be a veterinarian. Well, she's, she has to go to college.
Right. And so let's go ahead. And so we can do to, for her to start making her own money in high school so she can start. I think that off another big thing is I don't, uh, I don't, I subscribed to the idea that we have to pay for our children's everything. We see a lot of students come through our program.
One of my favorite stories is Caleb. Caleb came in and he actually couldn't pay for the program and we're a nonprofit. So he was able to raise money and he was also, we were also able to give him some pretty strong scholarships, but at the end of the program, he, uh, he actually said, you know, Josh, I would have worked a lot harder if I would have had some of my own skin in the game.
If I would have had some money in this, um, when you have some skin in the game, you work hard or you take things more seriously. And so I want my daughters to also understand money, [00:17:00] um, and they understand that while we're, you know, going through our lives as adults now, we can't really afford that. Yep.
We're still still paying down this debt, you know, it really does affect your children as well. It really does. Um,
Mike: [00:17:14] no skin in the game is an interesting thing. I want to interject there because that's, that's one of the key issues I think with our current system with college is that it's very, very easy to rack up debt to chase after a degree that you.
Kind of think you should go into and you don't really have a context. I think it's, I think it's, I think it's morally wrong. How easy it is to get a hundred K in debt for icicle student that is not really. It's not the ramifications of that. They don't really understand. And you could argue, maybe they should understand that or whatever ever.
But at the end of the day, it's they don't have the skin in the game. I mean, they have it, but they don't even realize, right.
Josh: [00:17:56] They don't recognize it. Didn't recognize it.
Mike: [00:17:58] Yeah. You sure as heck [00:18:00] have skin in the game when you're paying that back, you know, but then you. You're you're so disheartened because you have such big debt.
So I strongly, I, that's why I love what you're doing, Josh, because I think it's, it is, I think it's morally wrong to allow someone to get into so far of debt for something that is not really that valuable.
Josh: [00:18:20] You know, if you know,
Mike: [00:18:21] you're not in it or if you're not pursuing the right thing and all of those, all the things that you're trying to correct with
Josh: [00:18:25] that federal school debt is the only debt that you can't bankrupt.
Yeah. I mean, it is lifelong, no matter what. You could be at your least in your last and you still have to pay that off. Yeah. So debt is easy, especially in college. And you know, it goes back to what we were saying earlier about college. Not necessarily being an investment, um, debt, school debt being an investment.
Isn't. Oh, it's a lie. It's a lie. Unless you have a very strong plan to get out of it. And for that debt to make you great [00:19:00] money, uh, investors will buy apartment complexes because they know they're going to be making this amount of money after they're going to be making this amount of money to pay off this step, then.
We've got to start looking at college, like a true investment. And if it's not going to be an investment financially, then I S I should start looking at another position. I should start looking for degrees that will actually pay that are in the area that I want to live. You know, that's something else that we run into a lot is I have this degree and there's no jobs in the area.
Well, are you, are you willing to move? Nah, not really. I have this family. So then what are you going to do with that degree? If you don't want to move. What are you going to do with that $40,000 of average student debt? So we're solving a lot of problems and, uh, especially with, with college and with debt, um, and I'm hoping that college appreciates what we're doing because a lot of our students are coming out of college with way more success.
But a lot of times how we're talking [00:20:00] about college seems to turn them off, to do what we're doing. Um, some, some of our students start their own businesses or many. And few of them are actually making money before our three month program is even over.
Mike: [00:20:13] Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, when you talk about how maybe your projecting your sediment about college, you said you guys are pro success.
You're not necessarily anti college, but I think what's happening in higher education is you have a correction back to a norm, right. You know, from my understanding of the whole system is, you know, maybe 30. 30 plus years ago, it was much different. And then what happened and was you had all this access to capital for your buyers.
So anytime that you're going to give your, your buyers a whole bunch of money, then they're just going to try to get that money. Right. And what they did was they said, okay, now we have all this free money, but not free money, but easy loans to rack up for students. So in college has started to say, okay, well, what does a student like?
Oh, a student likes, uh, you know, a [00:21:00] climbing wall. And then they, they like a really cool cafeteria and they like all of the stuff that really doesn't add value to the product that they're selling, which is the degree. Right? Oh, so you have this, they, they, they expanded to try to, they get like a, like a fun environment for the, for the students or whatever, but it didn't really add value to getting, making the progress in their life.
Right. And the, the degree they're selling. So now I think it's like, it's an old, it's a correction back to that, you know, they have to, they have to then correct back. To actually delivering the value, which is it, it's almost as if your program helps them put on glasses to say, okay, now I can actually see what I want.
And I see this is, this is a path and this is how I'm going to get there. And they develop a plan before. They're just, they're just chasing after. Who knows what
Josh: [00:21:45] you know, and that's, what's so important about our line. We help young people clarify their career path. Just like you said, with those glasses, when it's clear, it's easy, maybe not easy but easier.
You, you know where you're heading. You know, you have [00:22:00] a, the detailed plan, our students graduate with a detailed life plan. That means, what am I doing tomorrow the next day, next week, all the way to their end, a vision plan, where they have that house, they have that family, they have that job. That's perfect for them and we help them connect the dots all the way through.
Um, and you know, we've got a student named Blake. Uh, he said, by this time I'm going to be in Florida. I'm going to be working at this company. And then I'm going to go ahead. And by my, by, uh, by my girlfriend or ring, I'm going to be engaged on this state. We're going to move back up to Michigan and we're going to get married up in Michigan and he is literally following every single step.
You think this kid has any anxiety? His life has laid out before him by himself. He laid it out there and he's just going to fall every day. He just looks at his life plan. So, okay. This is what I got to do next. And he's just rolling. Yeah. Very successful
Mike: [00:22:51] students. And, and, and you can adapt that to, I mean, you adapt as you learn.
I mean, that's the thing, it's, you're not saying you're locked into this forever, which, which is [00:23:00] the case. If you're racking up a bunch of debt and you're going into a career that you you're not set up for. Um, but, but the back to what you said about the Doogie game, where you see yellow cars everywhere, when you have that plan, you know, people.
It's kind of like when things that you're, you're in a groove and everything's going your way. I think that's by nature of you, you have a plan, you have a direction and you have focus and people recognize that other successful people or other people with a plan recognize that, and they're willing to go out of their way to help you.
And they're willing to help you in that path. But if you're not that focused and you're wandering, there's less likelihood that someone is gonna. Is going to necessarily give that guy, which is kind of unfortunate to some degree. And not that people aren't generous, but it's just, it's just a fact. Yeah.
Josh: [00:23:52] Wandering creates insecurity. Clarity creates confidence. We had a student that actually went in for a job interview with so [00:24:00] much confidence. With his life plan and his personality and identity, he actually told, he told the interviewer. Yeah, I'm just not sure if this is going to be a good fit for me in my future.
And that guy was no. So he left with that in a, you know, cause we teach our students, you're interviewing the boss to the potential employer as well. And he was so, uh, He was so inspired by this young person's confidence. He called me, he said, what are you? That's just, it does happen. So companies are chasing our students because they see the confidence and they see that they can't really get their whole, their hands on them and control them there.
They there at their direction. They've got their path and they're confident in it. I'm not sure if I've ever heard any young people that would go to a, to an interview and say, you know, I just don't know if this is going to be a good fit for me in my life. You know, it's just such a powerful. Powerful thing.
Mike: [00:24:53] That's awesome. Well, Josh, where, where do people go to find you and more information about the industry?
Josh: [00:24:59] Yeah, you [00:25:00] can go to learn the industry.org. If you just want to hop on and apply right away, you can go to learn the industry.org/apply. If you're in the blue water area. Um, soon we're, we're planning on having housing, which would open up this program to all of, uh, everywhere.
You know, anybody can fly in. Um, from some other places as well. So you can find us on learn the industry.org. Um, you can email me, learn the industry.org at gmail.com. Or you can just call me and get my cell phone from Mike. That's. Awesome.
Mike: [00:25:32] Cool, Josh. Well, thanks for being our man. I really appreciate it. It was
Josh: [00:25:35] nice, right?
This was awesome. Thanks so much for having me.
Ryan Seamons is a father of 5, the founder or Groove, and also a friend. They make physical products to help people have meaningful conversations about work and their careers. So much of that carries over to life at home and how we think about the paths that we are on. A great conversation about making time to have conversations with each other and ourselves to craft the best future.
Where To Find Ryan
- Twitter https://twitter.com/ryanseamons
- Blog https://ryanseamons.com/
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanseamons
- Company https://meetgroove.com/
- Study Mentioned in Episode https://bronnieware.com/blog/regrets-of-the-dying/
Transcription below (may contain typos...):
[00:00:00] Ryan: [00:00:00] regret, number one, she said this was far and away.
The biggest, the most common regret that people had, and it was, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to me, self, not the life others expected of me. And so when you talk about the stories, you tell yourself what, in listening, we hear advice from others all the time, right? People think they're coaching.
What they're actually doing is giving advice. Giving advice is not coaching. Coaching is helping you understand what you want and people aren't good at that.
Mike: [00:00:25] Careers and kids, how do we talk about our own careers? How do we talk about careers to our kids? What are the stories that we tell ourselves about our careers and what we like and dislike about them? that's a conversation I had with Ryan Siemens who runs a company called groove. They actually make physical cards.
, that facilitate conversations. About careers. And we talked about careers. We talked about schooling. We talked about education and ukuleles and how to get your kids to do. Anything you want them to do using ukuleles. [00:01:00] So let's jump into the interview
well today on the podcast, Ryan Siemens joins us. Thank you for being on the show, Ryan. Welcome.
Ryan: [00:01:10] Yeah. Thanks. Glad to be here.
Mike: [00:01:11] Yeah. So Ryan runs company called groove.
I was previously with LinkedIn. He's a multi startup kind of guy too. Um, But groove is a really interesting company. Um, and maybe I'll have you explain it because you'd explain it better, but I will say, I should say you are a father of five as well, which is one of the key reasons I wanted to have you on this podcast, um, to share wisdom there.
You're also a friend. Um, so Ryan tell us what, tell us what groove is all about.
Ryan: [00:01:37] Yeah, well, excited to be here. And so groove, this is a recent, um, recent company has started and the idea behind groove is we are creating physical experiences to help people be more fulfilled in life. And so we're, we're building a series of, of physical experiences, uh, that are, uh, conversational.
Most of them in nature, and they are centered around work. Around education and then [00:02:00] around family. So our we've really just released our first product for work. It's called career conversations, and it is a card deck. And soon to becoming a career roadmap guide that you can fill out with, uh, to help you think about what's important in your career and where do you want to go?
Uh, so that you can not just have a good path ahead of you, but find fulfillment in work.
Mike: [00:02:20] Yeah, no, that's great. I think it's a huge need and I'm actually holding the physical cards right here in front of me, your career cards, which I wear are very well done. They're very well designed. Tell, tell us a little bit about how the tell, tell me how the, the idea came about.
Like how, how did you identify this need and how, how did the whole product come to fruition?
Ryan: [00:02:41] Yeah. So the, the, for me, the idea of guidance experiences has always been an interesting thought in my mind. And this started actually when I was at LinkedIn. So we designed, I got hired at LinkedIn to design the first learning system internally.
At the time we called it learning today, you'll know that as LinkedIn learning, right. Um, and as we [00:03:00] design that, the piece that resonated most with people as we were building that out was something we called at the time. The transformation plan sounds pretty cliche now, but the idea behind it was a walkthrough experience kind of step by step to help people identify, well, what skill do I want to learn?
What content could I learn about and how do I take steps in that? And people just really like that right there. There's naturally we all want to know what's the next step. Like, what's the next thing. So I've liked that idea of telling people the next step fast forward then to about a year ago. Uh, we got introduced to some other companies that were doing, uh, then card decks out there.
One is Stanford. There's something they call the values deck. They don't sell it externally. Another company called Instructure, created something called the drivers deck, which is similar to this. But again, they don't, they don't sell it. They use it as lead generation for the product. Um, we, we ended up looking at 12 different products that all kind of touched on this point.
But for me, I wanted to find something that an individual could pick up and could use in conversation with their manager up here, or even a spouse, and that they could get [00:04:00] the help beyond just the, the cards themselves, the values sort. Um, and that just didn't exist. So we started. Started asking lots of questions.
We ended up doing 200, I think about now we're up to 230 personal interviews that we've done, where we've walked through and gotten feedback on the words, the mechanism that the deck, the approach. Um, and so we feel really good about the feedback that we've gotten and, and finding a set of words that resonate with people that are, uh, that are wide enough for people to identify with and then thinking about, okay, how do we go from.
Someone saying, I don't really know how to have a career conversation or yeah. As a manager, I know I should have this, but I don't know really what to say or people that start with what we think is actually a bad way to start a career conversation. The question where do you see yourself in five years? I actually think that's a horrible way to start a career conversation.
I instead
Mike: [00:04:43] you should. Why is it a horrible way to start a
Ryan: [00:04:45] company? Great question. It's a horrible way to start a career conversation because it skips over all of the why. It says cool. Jumped to like, where do you want to be an artist too often? It's easy to slip into normal scripts. [00:05:00] So we say, well, where do I want to be?
Well, I want to get promoted. I want to make lots of money. I want to be famous. It's just easy to think we want those things. But instead when you start by exploring, well, what do I care about? Today. Uh, and, and why do I care about that? And you started consists of the conversation guide that we share has a couple of questions about your past.
What led you to hear about your future? Where do you think you want to go? And then your present? How do we start now? And this is it really for us came because at LinkedIn, so in 2015, they published a study that said that the number one reason people leave companies is because of lack of career development.
They feel like, Oh, I'm not having enough growth opportunity here. And I felt, I imagine you've probably felt this at times where, yeah, I'm am I growing? Am I learning? And so people end up leaving because they think, Oh, if I go to another company, I'm going to get more opportunity. And then, you know, it's exciting for a bit.
And then you fall back into things. And so I believe there's actually, even though you should have plans for the future, there's this opportunity for everyone to grow in their current role to say, what can I do now to be growing instead of just dreaming of five [00:06:00] years in the future? Which frankly, I mean, You're never going to get there, right?
Like if anyone who would have predicted like five years ago, if I would've tried to predict what I'd be doing now, I would have been completely and utterly wrong, like right. Hashtag COVID. Um, and I think that's true of a lot of people. And even if you do know where you want to go, you say, well, my position's really, really set.
Okay. Then what, like what else, how else are you going to grow and find fulfillment other than the job title that you have? There's a lot more to it. So that's, that's why it's not a bad question to answer, but it's a bad question to start with.
Mike: [00:06:26] So, so then walk me through how your solution helps, because I agree with all that you just said.
I mean, especially the point when you said you slip into cliche terms or cliche scenarios, like this is just what you're supposed to say in this sort of a scenario in this situation. Um, Instead there then to me, it's because there's roadblocks to really understanding, like, I don't even know how to think about that far ahead for most people, you know, they don't know how to think about five years ahead.
Um, they don't know how to assess what's going on today. So they may be, have a vision [00:07:00] for where they want to be. And this relates, I think with kids too, you know, as how are we helping guide our kids into where they can use their skills the most and be the most fulfilled in their work and in life. And
Ryan: [00:07:14] so tell me about the bear
Mike: [00:07:16] to having that conversation.
You said it was the why, and it doesn't address the why that conversation. So how do you get to that? Why, so maybe unpack a little bit about how your solution helps people get
Ryan: [00:07:26] to that. Why. Sure. I think it's human nature. I actually don't know why this is, but we jump, we'd like to jump to the end. We like to know the end of the story.
And we do that often when it comes to jobs, right? What are you going to be when you grow up kids don't say, well, you know what I really enjoy doing. I enjoy this and this and this. And so, yeah, I've been thinking about this path. No, they just say I'm going to be. The coolest thing I can think of that starts with like, I'm going to be an astronaut or a firefighter or a princess or a president of United States, or, you know, whatever that is that people think they want to be.
Um, because we jumped to the end. And when you [00:08:00] understand the why, and this is true. So a lot of what I've we've built into this also comes from my, my work building products. So I was at LinkedIn as a product manager, as a director of product a at tech. A venture backed tech company and the secret to building great products is to not jump to solutions, but to spend enough time understanding real problems and why things are the way they are and then building solutions to those problems.
Similarly, when we jump to the solutions of our career, when we just assume we know the path forward, we're going to miss out on a lot of good thinking, reflecting, deciding meaning-making on the process to say, well, why have I liked what I've liked? What do I do? I really want? And we don't. Necessarily take enough time usually to, to think about those.
And even if we take the time, it's hard to know. Well, what words do I use and analogy we use often to talk about how our product helps people. And I think a good way just to think about conversations in general, that are hard is rock climbing. There are some people who can free climb right there. There's the Netflix documentary.
It's amazing. We watched them. We're just like, Oh, that's so amazing. But 99% of us, we [00:09:00] need some tools. We need a rope, a harness. We want some to show us the way we want some to spot us. It's the same way with career conversations. There's a few people who just know what they want to do and they know they're calling it like, and it's like good for you.
That's awesome. Great. Most people, that's not the case. You need some tools. And for us, those tools are a set of words, a set of mechanics to help you move through a set of questions, to talk through this and think through this and the, the exercise we've built just gives people time. I think frankly, a lot of the value is just.
Spending time doing it, but for a lot of us, it's hard to create that time so that the card and the mechanisms help create that time and the space to say, okay, I'm going to stop and not think about the position I want. I'll get there. But think about what do I really love about work? What motivates me and drives me in my work.
Why does it do that? Let me think of some stories of why that is the case. We get, let me talk about today. Am I fulfilled or unfulfilled in those things that are most motivating to me? What could be different about my current job to do better than that? And so on and so forth with some of the
Mike: [00:09:54] questions.
Yeah, I think that's a, the space is a huge one. I mean, [00:10:00] there, you were saying that, you know, we like to jump to the end, but it's because we don't, we don't have enough time to even think about what's going on now. And that's often, it's like, there's this need to supply an answer. If someone asked you the questions to need display an answer.
And instead I hear you say. Take some time to actually reflect on what's going well, you know, what are you learning as of right now? And that's just not done. I mean, that's not, there's not a good, there's not a good, uh, there's not a good framework for that, um, professionally, but even like, there's not.
There's not something that's like a message about that even personally, right? Like to take time to reflect on that.
Ryan: [00:10:43] Yeah. And with kids then, I mean, bringing it to the dad portion and I, it's been interesting as I've been building this product, learning about it, seeing other products out there, what it's done for my relationship with my kids, because I realized, like you said, We hate silence.
We like answers as humans. We just, we are, you know, it's why most negotiating systems go poorly because you [00:11:00] ask what you want. And then instead of waiting silently for the answer you interject like, Oh, and put a bunch in there. And it's like the power of just waiting patiently. Um, are there is power I should say in waiting patiently.
And this is especially true with kids, kids. When you ask them a question, they usually don't many times won't know the answer at first, especially I'm G I have a 12 year old now she's just entering this teenage years and she started to get that a lot of teenagers do where they shell up. Uh, they don't know the answer I don't want to do.
It takes a lot of waiting and time and almost you need to have permission. To not have the answer. And I think that's that for me is a key point why we liked the product that we built, because it, it creates an environment and space where it's okay. Not to have the answer. And so in doing this then with my kids, it's interesting.
Use the cards a bit with my family. We want to build a family deck eventually for couples to talk and for people to talk with their kids about what matters most to them, with my kids. It was interesting experience when we. We actually took the deck. So it's 50 values and motivators. They're not, not really all personal.
Some of them are work-related like compensation or benefits. So we took those out, but we laid all the cards on [00:12:00] the table and we did a little sort with our kids where we just said, Hey, which of these do you think our family embodies? Or which of these do you think are important? Our family, we got it down to maybe 15 cards.
And then I told each of my kids again, for kids who are at talking age, one's three inner centering talking, but I asked my older ones, I said, okay, I want you to pick a card. And, uh, if you don't know what it is, just ask me, I'll tell you what it means. And I want you to tell a story about why you think our family uses it, why this is important to our family.
And it was a really cool experience because, um, even I had my six year old who was like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, Oh, what's that word? What's that word? And he picked one up and we started telling stories of trips of hard things that happened of great things that happened of a lot of things that, that were important to our family.
And it was just. It's not like we've never talked about this stuff, but the words on cards help you have the time. And so I think, you know, regardless of, I think my product's great and people want to buy it, you know, I'll give you your alibi. But more than that, I think it's, it's about setting aside time and an environment where you have some help things to grab onto and you have time to not have the answer and that'd be [00:13:00] okay.
Mike: [00:13:01] Yeah. That, that last line you said not have the answer and be okay. Um, Tell me about how you've maybe struggled with that as a dad in the past, because I think that's an important thing that, that men and dads, especially like, feel like we have to have the right answer. We feel like we have to be the one that has the plan and has the answer.
And sometimes we don't and. Reconciling that I think is, is hard and, and taking time ourselves to reflect on, you know, a plan personally and leading are one of the things that I'm on my, a kick lately is, is you can't lead others until you lead yourself. You can't lead others until you learn to lead yourself in personal discipline and, and areas of fitness and mental health and all that.
And. There's oftentimes where you feel like you need the answer and you don't even have even sort out your own thoughts. So, so tell me a little bit about, you know, your past and how you've kind of reconciled that, you know, maybe when you first had kids or, you know, as your kids are growing up. And, um, can you tell me a story about [00:14:00] that?
Right. I'll put you on this call.
Ryan: [00:14:03] No, this is, this is great. I love it. So yeah, the funny thing is the more time goes on, the less answers I feel like I have about parenting. Um, but I think that's true of a lot of things in life. Um, so for me, a lot of the, so you said I have five kids ages, three up to 12, and we've actually homeschooled our kids for six.
We're going on seven years now. Um, and so with that, I'm sorry, females is here.
Mike: [00:14:29] It's all good.
Ryan: [00:14:33] Speaking of the kids, I told them, I told them it was funny. I told my wife, I said, Hey, by the way, you know, at this time I'm doing an interview, let's, let's try to, you know, not, I said, if the kids could not scream right outside my office, that would be great. And she said, it's a podcast about dads. Isn't it.
It'll just be color. Like throw it in there. Well, touché TJ authentic. Oh, it's real. It's real. Um, So, yeah, I like your question around, what, [00:15:00] how do you, what happens when you don't have the answer? Like how do you do that as a dad? So, so we have five kids that just three to 12, we've homeschooled our kids for a long time.
And for us, our homeschool approach has kind of hung on to principals. Principle number one, we want our kids to love learning. And this is probably the primary reason we actually decided to homeschool in the first place. Uh, not because there aren't great teachers, there are some phenomenal teachers in our school system.
Um, but overall for our kids, we felt like the experience they were getting and they were about to have we just said, yeah, I think we want to, we have the capacity and we want, want to do this together. So we want them to love learning and to, we want them to know how to learn. And then every other piece that the curriculum we choose, how hard is it?
Like everything else hangs off of that. And so a key part of that, then when we talk about loving learning and knowing how to learn, we believe the best way to instill that in our kids is to be examples of learning. And that's one of the hardest, one of the big. Uh, things people ask about before the homeschool is, well, uh, you know, how could I do this?
I don't, I don't know if I remember all the math all [00:16:00] day. Like what, uh, ah, I don't even know if I could teach them because they have the wrong paradigm in my mind, in my perspective, they have their own paradigm in their mind. The paradigm is not, you are the teacher bestowing knowledge on your students.
It's you are simply a guide helping them find great. Learning. We're all naturally curious. We are as kids. And unfortunately, for some people that gets kind of beat out of them by the systems that we go through, right. Between schooling and work. And you do what you're told head down and just, but kids are naturally like, you look at a two, three year old, you can't contain them.
Right. They're just looking at everything, exploring everything. And so for me, when I don't know the answer is actually one of my things at times, I think one of the best times I can teach my kids because my kids now get a front row seat to see what happens when you don't know the answer. And I say, yeah, I love saying, I don't know, but then my next answer is, but let's find out, let's go to Google and find out let's open the scriptures and find out let's, you know, go wherever we're going to go for knowledge.
Um, and it's really cool. Especially as my kids have gotten older, to help them learn [00:17:00] things that I don't know to say. Yeah, I don't, I don't really know that. So like we just moved to Cincinnati. Birds are a big thing that weren't a big thing out as big a thing out West. And so we've got a bird feeder in our backyard.
I bought my son as part of his own schooling this year, a birds of Ohio book. And I said, okay, we're going to learn about birds. And so, yeah, you gotta tell me. And he's now been finding good sources and teaching me about all the birds and why they do what they do. And, and it's been a really exciting thing, but creating that environment, being okay, not to have the answer, um, has been good thing.
That can be difficult though, because you have to honorable. And for some parents, I think it's really scary to tell your kids. I'm not perfect. I don't know everything. Um, but I think once you get over that, I think then it's okay. It's okay. Because you say, but we can figure it out. That's that for me is where a lot of confidence comes in.
Mike: [00:17:42] Yeah. I love those two principles, loving learning and, um, you know, learning how to learn, you know, teaching him how to learn. I think that from that all learning can STEM. Right. I mean, and it's kind of like, that's what it's all about. Um, so tell me a little bit about, [00:18:00] um, how this career cards, you know, Tell me about some of the success stories that you had from it.
Cause I'd like to hear about people that have used it and have gotten this light bulb moment, right. And saying, wow, this, you know, I was on a certain path or I thought I was supposed to go on a certain path and instead I'm going over here and it's amazing. And I'm so much more fulfilled and happy and focused or whatever.
Ryan: [00:18:22] Great question. A couple of two stories. I'll share a story that, um, Yeah, two, two stories. I'll share one of someone who I think thought they had everything in their career and kind of realize something about the career and another person who from the outside, you wouldn't think they were doing well in their career, but was actually in a really good place.
Um, so the story about someone who thought they were kind of had it all, they are a developer and they work at Raytheon. Defense contracting company, they got paid well, right out of college. Like everything, like, they were like, this is sweet. This is what I wanted to do. This was like my dream, like, yeah, I've made it.
I'm working for a big company doing cool, important development things. Well, they found out [00:19:00] a few months into their job that they hated their job. They were like, this sucks. I really don't like doing this. Um, but they, I talked to this person a couple of times. Um, and they can never really explain why they're just like, Oh, I don't know.
It's just, I don't know. I guess maybe I don't like developed, like maybe I should. So they were doing what we do. Right. We grabbed for other, like, maybe I should go back to school. Maybe I should change this. Maybe I all, it's my boss blaming all these external things, um, which is really natural. And I've done that before I, as we were developing these, I said, Oh, Hey, let's sit down and let's go through this conversation together.
I'd love to get your feedback yeah. On it. And then let's use this. And so we said, okay, I went through this conversation and talked about, well, what's important to you. And why are these things important to you? And then we got to the point, okay, are you fulfilled or unfulfilled today in these things? And there are a couple of attributes that they said, yeah, I've got these.
Okay. But you know, most of them like really low, like, yeah, I'm not getting this at all. Uh, one thing that really stood out was they had mentorship and sponsorship is one of the cards and they, they put that really low and I asked them, well, what does this mean to you? So the cards don't have definitions.
They're just the words in a big, important part of the cards is, well, what does this mean to [00:20:00] you? And for a lot of us, we haven't. If we know what these words mean kind of, but then it's like, well, I guess I've probably never had to articulate, like, what does purpose mean to me? What does leadership mean to me?
What does a, what does respect mean to me? Like how do I define that? Is that my company shows me respect or is it me? I feel respected or, you know, there's all those things. So we started talking about definitions and as we talked about the mentorship, I asked the question, was there a time that you were fulfilled in you job in this?
And he paused and said, well, Oh, actually, yeah, there was a time recently, like just a few weeks ago, my boss came to me and he said, Hey, I need your help to mentor this new person on our team. Like they need to learn X, Y, Z, could you go teach him that? He said, Oh, that was like the best thing to do. It happened at my job.
And he lit up, like, you saw that energy lift and, and he just started talking about this stuff. And then I said, okay. I said, this is great. Now does your manager know that was a really great experience for you? And you said, Oh, uh, no. I said, well, what do you think would happen if you told your manager, Hey, this was a really good experience.
I really enjoyed this. If there are ever chances [00:21:00] where you need someone to learn something, move up, get, get help. I really enjoyed that and would like to do more of that. And the person paused and he said, wow, I mean, yeah, I guess I couldn't say that kind of lit up and they said, and they said this then after all of it, that was really exciting.
They said, I guess I've never thought about how I could change to make my job better. I always wanted someone else to change to do this or that, or I thought I had to leave. And so they said, okay, well, I'm going to try that. And I follow up with weeks later and they said, yeah, like I'm getting, I mean, it's not perfect.
I still may need to make some changes in my job, but. Wow, I'm getting more of this thing. That's fulfilling my job. So, so that for me was an exciting thing. There was one other person that, that was really interesting to talk to this person. Wasn't maybe your typical like tech company, you know, that they were working as a janitor in a school district and they hadn't had a lot of success in their career.
They kind of meander through things, but they'd settled on this job. And they were getting some pressure from family to do other things and family. It was like, this isn't a future. What are you doing? Like you got to go to school or all these things. And so I sat down and talked with this person. We did the card store.
[00:22:00] What was fascinating to me is this person put everything up high. Where they listed all these things that are important to them. And then they said fulfilled. I was, I was, I was surprised. I'm like really like janitor. And then we started talking about stories and this person said, well, I'm fulfilled because for them, mentorship is actually an important thing as well.
They said, I've got this crew of high school students I work with. And every day I get to teach them how to take good care of things. And how to do a responsible job and why it's important. And they said, Oh, I just, I love that. That's so great. Yeah. And then they talked about, uh, having a team and they said, man, teamwork is so important to me.
And like, I'm on a team and I meet and here's why, and they just went on and on about what was good. And so then what was fun about that one? Even though they were fulfilled and I'm just like, I'm happy in my job. I'm happy with my path forward. And I said, well, what are the challenges? Now? They sit out my, my family, like, I'm getting some guff from people about what I've chosen.
So we crafted a story together and said, okay, well, what story can you tell? That's going to help others respect your career path and help you stay true to what, what you're enjoying about this. And we crafted that together. And for me, that was exciting to see. Um, [00:23:00] because I think sometimes we do don't think about the stories we're telling to ourselves and the stories we're telling to other people about our career, but they're important, right?
Work is a, a third of our life. Like we, you know, and it impacts a lot of things in our life. It impacts how we act in our families, how we're dads and all that. So understand taking time to understand your story. That you're telling yourself that you're talking to others and what you want to improve or change about the story, I think is important.
It's been cool to see that happen. And a few times with the cards.
Mike: [00:23:24] Yeah. I think the story that we tell ourselves, both that we tell ourselves, and we tell other people is heavily impacted by societal norms, or like you were saying really a janitor or what our families are telling us, you know, there's these expectations that it, you, it can cause you what I, what I took away from that janitor story is like, Those could cause you to maybe make a change that would, you would leave all the fulfilling aspects of your job, right?
If someone's saying, Hey, maybe there's not a bright future there in, in janitorial work or whatever that is. Or, or maybe you should be making more money or something that's [00:24:00] separate than addressing the why of what do you actually love about this? You know? And so you can actually start to separate those things and understand, and then say, okay, well, what, what would be.
Do you stay in this role or do you do you know something else, but you're, you're kind of getting the underlying truth, which I think is important and what I, why I think it's so important to kind of audit the stories that you're telling yourself is because you can tend to focus too much on the negative.
At least I do. And I think that's human nature. You know, you. Either when you hear someone saying, Oh, you should be doing this. And then you're kind of like, should I? Yeah. And then you have a bad day or something and you're like, yeah, this sucks. I should be doing this other thing. Or if you're just getting down on yourself for some reason, or comparing yourself to others, it's like auditing those conversations is really important, but there's not always yeah.
Good space to do that, to get to actual truth. It's clouded in the last comment someone made or how you're just feeling that day, as opposed to. A mechanism to get down to the underlying truth.
[00:25:00] Ryan: [00:25:00] For sure. Recency bias is a major force in our lives where the most recent conversation, most recent thing it happened, it clouds cloud is a good word that you use clouds, what we think, and it comes to you.
So, uh, the principle that I like to reference and that I think is part of what I like about. The company that I'm building kind of why I'm building the company. I'm building is the number one regret people have at the end of their lives. And so a lot of people familiar with this Bonnie ware who was a nurse in Australia.
She worked with people in the last 12 weeks of their lives. And she started asking patient after patient what their biggest regret was as they're literally on their deathbed. And she started taking notes. She ended up writing a book, but she published. Uh, there's an article there. If you look at the top five regrets of the dying good article to read and regret, number one, she said this was far and away.
The biggest, the most common regret that people had, and it was, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to me, self, not the life others expected of me. And so when you talk about the stories, you tell yourself what, in listening, we hear advice from others all the time, right? People [00:26:00] think they're coaching.
What they're actually doing is giving advice. Giving advice is not coaching. Coaching is helping you understand what you want and people aren't good at that. That's another purpose of the cards is at work for managers. We want managers to have a mechanism so they can grab on and know, how do I have a conversation where I coach the person?
I don't just give them advice because usually the advice we give is do what I did. Because I did that. And if you do that, because I, it it's important that you do what I did, because what I did is good. Cause I want to make sure that what I did was good. So I'll everyone to do what I did and that's the normal advice.
Right. Um, but when we think about that, number one regret of the dying, I wish I had the courage to live a life true to myself. I think we need to take more intentional time to think about, well, what do I want, why do I want that? How do I talk about that? And I think, especially with our kids, giving them the tools so they can think.
Well, what do I want? Who am I? I mean, you know, the cliche idea of parents forcing their dreams and ideas on their kids is still alive and well today, I think it's going better than it has in the past, but it's easy to push your kid to do what you did or what you want them to do instead of really [00:27:00] taking time to say, well, what do you actually want?
And then as a parent to say, I'm your advocate. Like, let's go get what you want, but let's help you. And to help them understand what they want, because a lot of times. Wants are expressed as outcomes. Like, Oh, I want this job in the future. I want this thing, but really we need to say, why do you want that?
What do you find exciting or fulfilling about that? There are usually multiple paths to get to where you want to go. And that's a lot of the thinking behind design thinking and the design approach, IDEO and others take, and then we can apply it to our lives as well.
Mike: [00:27:28] Yeah. You said, um, Oftentimes people that give advice want to feel good about the choices that they've made so that they, so they advocate for the recipient to make those same decisions.
I think that's really interesting. Um, maybe a cynical way to think about how we talk to our kids about.
Ryan: [00:27:49] It is a little sin. Well it's maybe that, you know, not knowing like, okay, that was maybe a little extreme to say, but I think it's, I think it can be very true. And it's it's at times I've even found myself [00:28:00] asking, like when I'm especially disciplining my kids or encouraging them in a certain way, To stop and go, why am I doing this?
Because they're two things are super easy to lean into. One is what did I do before? So I want you to do that because a year, me and I, you know, I want you to be like me or do what I didn't do, um, or, or do what I did well. But then the second thing is we tell our kids things because we want convenience. I want them to be quiet because it's annoying to me.
I want them to clean this thing up because I don't want to clean this thing up. Whereas I think when we are truly leading a life of love, We're doing it. Not because we want it, but because it's best for them. And I think that changes, especially as dads, some of the advice that we, some of the things we get started about and say, no, no, no, we have to do this.
Um, and I think then instead of using anger as a tool to kind of manipulate our kids into doing what we want, we can use the love to still help them do the things that they need to do. But the, the purpose behind it changes. And I think kids can sense that and they can sense when something's really from love and that you care about them versus.
No, this is inconvenient, you know, be [00:29:00] quiet. Do what you're told, do your thing. Um, yeah, and it's hard to stay in that love zone. for me, at least. And maybe for others, it can be really easy to go to know this is convenient, you know, don't make my life miserable. Just do it, you know, a bedtime's the worst, right?
When I'm just like, give me some time without like, it's the worst, right? I it's um, Jim Gaffigan, he talks about that. It's bedtime is like a hostage. Or a hostage situation, but in reverse where you're like, I will do anything, like stay in there. I will give you whatever you want. I will to meet all your demands.
It's awful, but it's so easy at the time to be tired and to use anger, instead of thinking broadly about the system, what are we doing here? Why are we doing this? How do I set my kids up for success with an environment? Um, and when I've, when I've tried to do that, I found it more successful, even though it takes a little more pre-thought and energy and patience.
Mike: [00:29:45] Yeah. I wanna, I want to push back a little bit on, you said, um, We, Oh, we parent the way that we were parented or the experiences that we had, um, how can we not do that? I mean, you're [00:30:00] only kind of a, you know, not a victim. I shouldn't say, I don't want to say victim, but you're, you're a result your product of the environment that you're raised in, and you're naturally going to carry that into your parenting.
Right. And you might have, um, experiences, you know, in that, that were negative that you're wanting to correct. Or they were positive and you want to reinforce with your own kids, and there's only so much you can do to break it outside of that. Right. And I think that there's, there's an aspect of it where you can, you can, Sarah, you can, you can love learning and chasing answers and stuff, truth, and that will lead you to maybe reflect on your past and say, okay, maybe I see some things that don't really jive with that because I have these other experiences over here.
Um, but I think it's an interesting dynamic because. I see it as ringing really true, you know, hurt people, hurt people as the is a phrase, right? And it's like, you're going to carry over your positive and negatives. Um, one of the best piece of advice my dad ever gave me, I think the wisest, uh, regarding this is regarding [00:31:00] marriage civically.
And then consequently parenting is you marry the family. And he said, as he said, You don't, you married, you have your own family when you get married and you form your own family, but you marry their family in the sense that you marry all their traditions, their values, their, um, their good and bad, you know, and you don't really appreciate that kind of advice until after a couple of years of marriage, right?
Oh, for shitty men, you know,
Ryan: [00:31:26] but yeah. But
Mike: [00:31:27] the reason I say that is because T tell me a little bit about, um, In thinking about that, I was thinking about providing this space to actually reflect on that is an important part of not just going with the default, you know, Parenting habits or, or, you know, good and bad that, that you have, that you were raised with, and that's something that's not done enough, not challenging your kind of your thinking or, or the why you do what you do.
Um, enough as parents and then in our careers and [00:32:00] just personally, and. Tell me a little bit about how maybe that you've experienced that in, you know, in your marriage or in with your kids that you're saying, Oh, I find myself doing this thing and I'm doing it because it was, you know, that's how my parents did it or it's on my wife's praying and singing.
That's how she was parented. And how you maybe changed or had a conversation with your spouse or with your kids about that.
Ryan: [00:32:23] Yeah, this is a great question because I do think it's natural. The default is, well, I'll just do what was done to me like, or, and I think a better way is to say, okay, that was, that was bad.
I didn't like, I like that being growing up. So I'm going to change it. I'm going to do something different. But I think with my wife and I we've seen both where at times we've caught ourselves where we're like, why don't we do this thing? Oh, well, this is. You know, this is just what you do. This is, this is how you find happiness, or this is what you do in this situation.
I remember when we first got married, uh, this was probably our first real fight as a couple. I remember my wife was like, Oh, Hey, I need to go buy some new shoes. [00:33:00] And I was like, I looked at her shoes and I was like, they're not, there's no holes in like, what do you mean? You need to buy new shoes? Like, we're not, they're not, we're not yet.
Like, you don't buy new shoes until they're like falling apart. And she looked at me and she was like, no, I need some new shoes because you know, I've worn these for a while. And, and I I'd like to go buy some new shoes and, uh, yeah, I was just like, It took me a little while to be like, you know, to be okay with that.
And it's something so silly. I laugh about looking back, but it's because the story I was raised with, and I don't know if you know, my parents did, you know the story or it was just the story that I grew up with was like, Oh, you wear things out before you throw them out. Like, that's what you do. Um, or before you get something new.
And so it was probably the first moment. I think you have a couple of options in that moment. You can either get angry, you can yell, or you can realize that you're becoming more aware of like, Oh, Here's a story that I didn't even realize was a story. I think the first component is become aware of what's even going on.
What is the story? And I think just realizing there is a story and that you should take time to think about that. Um, or when, especially when we [00:34:00] get angry or confused or have negative feelings, it's a good moment to pause and go. What's what's going on? What story am I telling myself about the situation about the person I'm interacting with?
And then you can start to do, you can decide. And I think this is a key truth that helps people be happier in life. You get to decide what story you tell. Nobody can tell the story for it. You get to decide. And so over time I've become, or at telling myself the story that it's okay for us to use money, to buy things that we want, not just things that have worn out to the point that, you know, they, they look awful.
Uh that's OK. And, and my wife's happy about that story and we found other things in our marriage as well, where, where we've decided, we realized the story that either our parents. Tell and some of those stories are incredible and amazing and have given us such very grateful for, I think we've come from stupid backgrounds and solid parents who sacrifice for us, but then there are other things that our parents did that.
Weren't great. Just like any parents when we're giving, uh, when, what we're giving to our kids. As, as dads and as parents, I think it's important to realize we are helping them craft their stories. And I hope that one of the stories I'm [00:35:00] giving to my kids is the fact that stories exist and you get to decide your stories.
And so when you grow up, you get to decide what you're going to do. We've made these choices, but you may like those, you may not. And that's okay. Um, so I think just becoming aware, lets you then make meaning of that. Like, well what does this really mean? And then finally take action over. Am I going to actually change this thing?
Yeah,
Mike: [00:35:19] that's awesome. Ryan, I think that's almost a good place to end it, man. I think that was a good, um, I, I really liked a lot of what we had to say and I loved the, I loved the product that you guys are building and, um, just got it and I'm excited to use it, um, with my kids too. Cause you, you know, you know, you and I were speaking before and you were telling me about how you do with kids.
I was like, I love that idea because one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot lately has been, um, What are our core values as a family and approaching the same way you approach it in your business and core values and what our goals and all of that. And, you know, having, having, there are kids
Ryan: [00:35:57] tell that story
Mike: [00:35:58] of, Hey, what, you know, what is [00:36:00] our value as a, as our family and tell them the story about how we actually live that out.
Um, I think is a really powerful thing to do, so definitely gonna love in it.
Ryan: [00:36:08] Love it. Can I, can I leave with one more story? Okay,
Mike: [00:36:10] go ahead.
Ryan: [00:36:10] Tap that off because you talk about using it with your kids and here here's maybe my advice on, uh, how do you get your kids to do anything that you want them to do?
Um, and so with, with, I guess the story I'll tell is about ukulele. Uh, so my, my mom is a music teacher and she recently changed. She used to teach her kids recorder. In school, but she actually started teaching in school ukulele. So the entire sixth grade class at our elementary school learned how to play the ukulele, which I was like, that is so cool.
So we got a ukulele while ago we started playing, we had a couple of, and we played a little bit, our kids kind of got into it a bit, but then it kind of went away. Well, when COVID started, we thought. Okay, what are we going to do now? I mean, even though we homeschooled, we were now home a lot more than we were used to.
We used to go out a lot. We were home. She said, okay, what are we going to do to keep him busy? And I thought, you know, I'd really like my kids to all learn ukulele and get into that. So we thought, okay, how are we going to do that? Like, what are we going to do? And there's a lot of ways we could have done that.
[00:37:00] Right. We could have been like, okay, 30 minutes every day, we're going to, you're going to do ukulele or make it a big announcement. Hey, family wear. And not even to tell them, I just said, you know what, I'm going to start playing the ukulele more. So every morning and every night I just started and just picking out songs and singing and eventually some kids come, you know, they'd sing with, Oh, what's that?
Oh, Hey, got another one here. I bought a few more cheap ukuleles so that we had them around. It was like, Oh, well here's as you go into here, you can. So, bye. After a couple months now, all my kids, including our three-year-old have learned ukulele, we sing songs together. Um, and it's just a fun thing for our family now.
And what I love is that I wanted them to do that, but I never told them that. I just said, I want to play ukulele. So they said, Oh, that's a good thing. So my, my advice about the car, cause you said, Oh, I want to use this with my kids. My best advice about how to use these cards with kids is not to pull it out and be like, Hey, we've got this thing and we're going to do actually it's to have a conversation between you two espouses in front of your, like, just out in the open where your kids could see, because especially, you know, these are our game, like right there.
They're beautiful to look at. And so you [00:38:00] start talking and I just actually had another friend who said they had a conversation last night and he said, Oh, my son was like, What's that, what are you doing? I want to do that. And he said, Hmm, I don't know. These are kind of like an adult thing. Like, I don't know if you'll understand all the work.
He said, no, I will I'll understand, like can teach me. And so then he said this morning, just before the party has he texted me. He said, I'm having an awesome conversation with my son about what he cares about. And my son's like, I want to learn these words, dad. I want to know. And so he's starting to teach his son are these words, his son's eight.
So I think that's a cool way to inspire kids to do things without actually telling them what you're doing. Yeah. So that's, that's my advice.
Mike: [00:38:34] Boom. That is great. I love it. What a great way to end it. Right. I think that's great advice. I think, Oh man, I think we could talk for another hour on that. Actually.
Ryan: [00:38:43] It's a fun topic, so, but yeah. Have been a good conversation today that I always enjoy our conversations, but yeah. Fun to do the podcast.
Mike: [00:38:49] Hey, thanks Ryan. I really appreciate it, man. Yeah, you're welcome. So you can, we can, uh, you can find you at, um, meat, groove.com. I also link up your Twitter handle and LinkedIn and all that in the show notes, but, [00:39:00] um, check it out.
It's a, it's an awesome product and definitely will help you. Um, not only at work, but also in the family life. So.
Ryan: [00:39:08] Yeah, for sure. Check that out. The other thing that I do, if you go to Ryan siemens.com, I do a weekly newsletter. It's called patterns. And it's about some of the topics we've talked about here.
Stories and ideas around fulfillment and the catch line is for people who don't want to hit Mondays. Um, so talking about some of these principles and that's where I find some of these stories every week and try to share them so awesome.
Mike: [00:39:25] Definitely we'll link that up in the show notes. Right. Cool.
Ryan: [00:39:28] Alright. Cool. Okay.
As a father of four children with an entrepreneurial wife who worked almost every Saturday, Justin quickly found himself alone, overwhelmed and outnumbered on Saturdays. He woke up one Saturday ready to make a change and armed with a game plan to engage my children in an intentional way. A trampoline, a GoPro, and 500 water balloons resulted in an incredible day with my children and he knew he was on to something special. His kids began asking on Wednesday, “Hey Dad, what’s the plan for Saturday?”. That has morphed into a book, a worldwide movement, and multiple non-profit efforts.
Where can you find Justin:
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/justinbatt
- Blog Link: https://justinbatt.com
- Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinbatt/
- Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/justin.batt.14
- Book: https://justinbatt.com/the-book/
- HisTEDx Talk
Transcription below (Typo's may be present...):
[00:00:00] Justin: [00:00:00] this individual or independent drive that we've been given to, to be the man and to be the driver and to operate in that business capacity, which is easy for most guys.
And then, you know, we'd rather go be a workaholic and work more. Cause we know what that looks like. We know what the end result is. You don't always get that with your kids. And frankly, kids are also probably some of the most invalidating people that have ever existed.
Mike: [00:00:23] Have you ever experienced the daddy hangover on a Saturday? that's a term coined by Justin batt, who was a guest on the podcast today. He is the founder of daddy Saturday, which is a foundation and it's a platform and it's a book and it's all around how to get dads more engaged, specifically devoting time on Saturday.
To be a more engaged dad and to avoid the dad hangover. Which he would say is being physically present but not mentally present and being checked out so [00:01:00] he had some great wisdom to share on the podcast so let's jump into the interview with justin
Today on the podcast, we have Justin batt, who is the founder of daddy Saturday, which is a foundation that has been around since 2007, with the goal of impacting 10 million fathers in the next 10 years.
And I'm Hey Justin, thanks for being on the show.
Justin: [00:01:22] Mike. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. And, um, I got to say a bit of a clarifying statement. Yeah. So I've been a dad since 2007. The foundation started about a year and a half ago, but I always backdated to that because that's the date that I officially became a dad and entered this journey of fatherhood.
Mike: [00:01:41] That's awesome, man. No, I think that's, that's a, that's an appropriate backdating. I mean, that's when that's, when you actually started the true foundation, which is, is it your kids? Right.
Justin: [00:01:50] They're founded as a right.
Mike: [00:01:53] Yeah. So tell, tell us a little bit about, um, the whole foundation and what you got going on.
I just love, um, [00:02:00] the content you put out and I know that you you're also the author of a book. Um, so tell me a little about the foundation, how it came. He came to be.
Justin: [00:02:07] Yeah, I'll give you the, the Genesis of daddy Saturday. So essentially about 13 years ago, my wife decided to leave teaching and go into being an entrepreneur.
I supported her a hundred percent of the journey. I was a young corporate executive at the time in the pharma industry. And so we decided to embark and then entrepreneur journey. At the same time we had our daughter, our first child. And so my wife found herself being a entrepreneur, owning a couture bridal boutique.
And that meant she worked, you know, most weekends every Saturday, all day. So I was at home with our daughter at the time, and then we added three more boys to the mix one every two years. So very quickly, I'm a setting that corporate ladder I'm home with all four kids all day on Saturday, eight to 10 hours, just dad and the kids and quickly found myself overwhelmed, overcome often feeling very inadequate and having what I call the dad [00:03:00] hangover on a lot of those Saturdays.
I mean, I was there with my kids physically. Um, but I wasn't always emotionally present. I wasn't giving my all in those days. And I realized that I'd been given it gift of spending that Saturday with my kids. So I started to just change everything and, and became intentional and engaged and was planning our days ahead of time.
And I saw this dramatic transition in my kids, in our relationship and in those Epic moments we were having in those Saturdays together. And they became a real blessing for me and for our family and for even my wife and I, and our relationship. And I'll never forget the Saturday or the Wednesday. My kids would often ask midweek, dad, what are we doing for dad on Saturday?
And my middle son, Mason goes one set one Wednesday, dad, what are we doing for daddy Saturday? And I was like, Oh my gosh, son, you just named it. That's what we're calling this thing. And fast forward a couple of years later, I was asked to give a TEDx on the fatherlessness epidemic. And I learned all about the epidemic that's in our country.
I mean, I knew a little bit about it. I recognize it in my own experience in my own life. [00:04:00] And realized that man, there's a lot of kids out there that don't have a biological dad in the home, but also many more kids that have a dad who is physically present, but he's emotionally absent. Like I was for a period of time.
So I decided to write the book, launch the plan form and embrace this calling that I've been given to take what I learned in my own family. And to help other dads do the same thing. And so it's gone from my backyard, with my four kids on those Saturdays to now becoming an international platform. We have a for profit and a nonprofit, the nonprofits designed to really hit that goal of 10 million dad's impacted in 10 years.
And then fatherlessness. And we do that through, um, four populations that we primarily serve the national guard, the incarcerated opportunities zones, and first responders. And then we have an international component to it and we've got daddy Saturday, Kenya established, and we've got a home office over there and a radio program that goes all over Kenya, helping dads be better dads and connecting them to the father.
Uh, all over Kenya. So that's the thing where we are. And on the, for profit side, I know we got some cool things that we [00:05:00] can talk about here for your audience around the texts, the ways that we're engaging dads through some unique platforms and programs.
Mike: [00:05:08] That's cool, man. No, that's, that's an awesome story.
The, the term, uh, dad hangover that, that, that's, that's an interesting one. I'm sure you, you face a lot of, you know, dads that you're talking with through the foundation and that interact with your content. I'm sure they're there at that state, right? Whenever they. That they either they seek you out or they come to a talk or something.
Um, unpack that a little bit because I'm sure people listening probably are dealing with that on some level or have dealt with it recently. So just unpack that a little bit and kind of how the foundation or how some of these tools help address some of that.
Justin: [00:05:44] Yeah. Well, I found myself as a young father, right?
Trying to make that corporate ladder climb. And whether you're climbing the corporate ladder, you're an entrepreneur or whatever your case is. I think we all struggle as men with a pride ego and balancing that role of being the provider [00:06:00] and that provider gene is embedded deeply within us. Oftentimes it's the example we were given as fathers from our own father or our grandparents are the male figures that were in our life.
And so that, that deep rooted vein of being the provider is, is often what's driving us. And I found myself having a hard time balancing that tension between work and home. And I think one of the first and most important things I'd tell your audience that I came to the conclusion of is that one you don't ever achieve balance between work and home.
Um, it's not about achieving balance. It's about managing the tension. The tension is always going to exist. And so once you acknowledge that the tension is always going to be your role is not to eliminate it or to try and achieve balance, try and manage that tension effectively. Because there's going to be points where your career may take precedent and that's okay.
Right. You got a big project, you got a big deal and you're starting a new company. There's going to be times where you have to invest more on that side. That the goal is that you don't let that overtake you and you don't make the excuses where that becomes the norm. And it becomes a longterm process where you miss out at home.
Vice versa. Right? You can only be at home. You can only be playing with your [00:07:00] kids. Otherwise you don't work and you don't make income and can't provide it with your family. So it's about managing that tension. And the way that I found that the best way to manage that tension is by, um, integrating your life into your work.
It's a lot of it. It's bringing those purposes home from work that we focus on those tools, mission, vision, value, goal setting that we do so well in the corporate space or as an entrepreneur, but we don't often do in the home. So, you know, if you're, if you're a tech startup, you've got all those things nailed down in your business life, but how often do you, those things in your home life as well?
So it's sitting down with your family and it's planning out what it was, our family mission, our vision, our values, what are our goals for ourselves as a, as a couple, if you're married for your, for your kids. And another tip there is we set our goals as a couple or individual goals at the beginning of the calendar year.
Our kids set their goals the beginning of the school year, because for kids. Right. That's that's their official year, oftentimes is the school year when they have the most going on. So that's one thing, integrating those two things together. The other piece of that [00:08:00] is on a more micro level is planning everything on paper, on purpose.
So we partnered with Michael Hyatt and he's got the full focus planner, which is a phenomenal planner. So over a hundred thousand copies of this planner, and we have the dad boss planner, which goes along with our dad boss digital course. And the point of the planner is that you write your big three down every day.
You plan on paper, on purpose. What's your biggest goals and initiatives are for that day, but that's not just at work. You also plan what you need to do as a husband, as a father. And you put that on your calendar. So if you've got a date night scheduled with your daughter, if you've got a kid's ball game, you got to go to.
That sits on your calendar and it sits there with the same level of importance as the biggest corporate meeting that you would ever have. Right. You gotta be on time when you're there. You're totally engaged. Your phone's put away and you're in the moment you're present and whatever it is you're doing.
So those are two, the things that I've found that are really key. And then the, I don't think I'll mention around that process of managing the tension is that you [00:09:00] can't expect yourself to show up. During the, during the week, and especially on the weekends, if you're burning the candle at both ends and you're giving everything you have to the office, you're not allowing yourself to maintain anything left for the home.
You can't just give breadcrumbs to your family and expect to be an intentional engaged dad. So it's about getting up early. It's about spending time. I do a devotional every morning, spend time in God's word. It's important to me connecting spiritually it's, um, exercising and getting that in, keeping your body and, um, eating healthy as well.
And then maintaining your sleep habits. Sounds like there, those are really tactical things, but I'll tell you, um, there's super important as you view your role as a dad and achieving peak performance, not just at work. But at home. And if you do those three things, well, then that'll help equal out that tension allow you to manage it successfully.
Mike: [00:09:53] Yeah, man, you said a lot there there's a lot to respond to Joseph the, um, but I cannot [00:10:00] agree more with that last point in, in the sense of taking care of your sleep habits, your diet, you know, your, your fitness and to not feel like that's being selfish at all. Yes. You can take it to an unhealthy selfish level.
Um, if you're training for an iron man, you know, every year and you have to train, you know, But that's so few people that there's so much bang for the buck in getting those things right. That carries over into your, your, your role as a, as a husband and a father that I can not, I can not agree with that more.
And I found that my own life. So, um, I agree. The question I have for you is, um, you mentioned that this idea of planning intentionally, um, for like annual quarterly goals, you know, all that sort of thing. And, and, um, I agree with that. And I, one of the things though, that is interesting, that, and why I started this podcast is that there was this discrepancy of these high-performers myself being included, where I had this intentionality with [00:11:00] my business and things I was doing for work, but not in the home.
And I'm sure people that you've talked to have dealt with that too. Right. And what, what do you, why do you think that is? Why, why do you think these, you know, smart people that are successful. Don't approach their role as a father with the intentionality. Is it, is it because it wasn't modeled to them that way, or they think that they can just get by on that or whatever, or their, you know, natural talent, they can just show up and they don't have to do that.
Or, you know, unpack that a little bit.
Justin: [00:11:32] So that's such a great question. The deep question, and yes, I agree with you. I think part of it is what was modeled for them. You know, a principal of daddy, Saturdays at far more is caught than taught. So in life, much of what we, we implement and what we learn is by what we observe and others, especially those influential people in our lives.
So it was either use either caught or taught by the person that was there. It wasn't there and that father role. And if you think about. Society as it's changed in the role of the father, right? Again, [00:12:00] it was based a lot on that provider mentality that especially if we're coming out of the great depression and the areas that followed right, we had, we had Wars, we had recessions, we had all sorts of different things that happened and that's evolved over time.
I think it's dramatically changed and we're seeing a return to the father, to the home. We're seeing more engagement, we're seeing more intentionality, but a lot of that is by choice, not by, because it was learned or by caught from the father above them. That's one piece of it. I think more importantly, it's that if I'm being really honest and I look back at my life and some of the challenges that I had early on as a dad and some of my bigger struggles and even some of the struggles I have today.
I don't think it's this, this innate principle. I don't think it's this. Um, it's an intentional choice. I think it's something that we are just wired as men because it's hard. And we, we get, it's easy to go to go out and hunt and kill. We were, we were hardwired that way so I can go work. And I know what that looks [00:13:00] like.
I know what that is. And I think part of it is the variability of what happens when you come home with your kids. Like, I know, I know how to go close a business deal. I know, I know how to go speak on a stage. I can go do that stuff with my eyes closed all day long. That's what I was trained in born to do.
But when I come home with my kids and then they asked me for the 18th time, if they can, um, play some app on their mom's phone or notice I said, mom's phone, not my phone, or they can. You know, um, ask me to go do something that frankly at that moment again, and being fully vulnerable that I probably just don't want to do, or I'm really tired.
And it's like, it's not my thing. Like that that's complex and is as easy as it sounds. It's challenging. And I think that that's part of that management is you got to go from one to the other, and it's hard to turn that off. It's like the split screen we have here, you sit there and you exist in that work life.
And then you got to come home. Or if you are working at home now, like most of us are, you gotta [00:14:00] quickly flip and now reintegrate into this time. And that's a hard. Flipped to make. So I think part of it is, um, it's, it's learned behavior it's, what's caught from above us, but it's also this, this individual or independent drive that we've been given to, to be the man and to be the driver and to operate in that business capacity, which is easy for most guys.
And then, you know, we'd rather go be a workaholic and work more. Cause we know what that looks like. We know what the end result is. You don't always get that with your kids. And frankly, kids are also probably some of the most invalidating people that have ever existed. Right. They're like invalidating little Creekers and they're really good about that.
I mean, my kids are some of the most and thankful kids I know outside of the home. Right. They tell every they have the best manners ever. My kids. Always get rewarded for their manners and saying, thank you. And just being great kids, but at home it's like, they just lose their minds and they forget all of that.
[00:15:00] And very rarely do they ever say to mom or dad, you know, thank you. Or that means so much. So I think the other part of it is also that that, uh, pleasure and reward. Um, scenario where you just often don't. I feel that as a parent where I can go close a business deal, I can, I can go make money. I can go have an economic transaction or a, an interaction on the business side where I get that immediate gratification, that reward and that Dawson doesn't happen at home.
Those are a couple of things that I've discovered in terms of the reasons why, and that's not just, just in talking. I mean, that's a lot of, I've interviewed hundreds. Yeah. Dad's at this point and I think that's also come out in those conversations.
Mike: [00:15:39] Yeah. I mean, I would agree with you on that. I think the, the wild West aspect of being a dad, as it relates to the clarity of a corporate, you know, objectives and corporate, you know, you know, goals or quotas you have to meet for if a sales position it's like, that's, I mean, that's hard in some regard, but it's like, I know how to do that.
Right. It's like, I know I put in, I put in the [00:16:00] work, I there's a, there's a roadmap. It's like it's uncharted territory. And with kids, it's like, it's new every year. It's not like, you know, the kids get older, they change, they, then you're dealing with other complex issues and it's like, Oh wait, just want to have this figured out.
It's going to change into something else. You know? So yeah, I can totally relate to that. Um,
Justin: [00:16:19] question so powerful though, Mike is because it goes back to this, this comment I heard a while ago and it was super impactful for me. And it was my daughter's 12, about to be 13. So we'll use 12 and it's it's have I been, been a dad for 12 years or have I been, uh, a dad one year at a time, 12 times, right?
Which one? Which one have I been? And when I think about that, when we look at our careers, oftentimes it's, you know, I've been in the workforce for 10, 15, 17, 18 years, whatever that is, right. 30 years you look at parenting, it's like, what you just said. We start over almost every year. And it's like, are we progressing [00:17:00] or are we regressing or, or just like kind of maintaining the status quo because we're not intentional about growing in that capacity, the same way we're intentional about growing in other areas of our life, like our, our careers.
And so I think that's the other piece of it is you need to look at that paradigm and say, how much am I investing in home? How much am I investing in being a. A more intentional, more engaged, um, father, and that's where it starts and ends for me. And that's why intentionality is so critical because you need to look at that scale and say, how much am I investing over here versus how much am I investing here?
And guess what? It's like, anything else where you invest is where you get the return. And so if you're investing all of your time, effort, and energy at work, you're going to get a big return there, but you're also not going to get the return that you may want or need at home.
Mike: [00:17:44] Yeah. And then, but even related to that, if you're, if you're going to go, I'll double down on that.
And in some regard to say, The home is the foundation. So your foundation starts to crumble. If you build too much of the building on top of it, right? If that's, if you want to use [00:18:00] that analogy, it's like that, you're going to be, yeah, your skyscrapers are really great, but you can only get so far. If you start, if you ignore the foundation, it's like, you start to have like water leaks, you know, like also it starts to have to be half washed out and then, then you're going to be screwed and you've got this nice looking building.
But it's all going to come crumbling down.
Justin: [00:18:17] Yeah. The moment your kid, the moment your kid is depressed and is on antidepressants and contemplating suicide or addicted to opioids or, um, teenage pregnancy, or, I mean, you know, these are things that parents don't want to think about, but they're harsh realities of what happens when you don't have an engaged parent in the home.
And especially today with technology and again, this being a technology focused. Group that we're speaking to. Right. I mean, there are so many doorways, so many gateways for kids to just get completely off track in a, moment's notice through technology today and through social media and all that's out there that, you know, as a parent, if you're not building a strong foundation there, then you know, how do you go be successful in the other side of that, when one of those things happens at home, [00:19:00] right?
It wrecks your entire world the night, absolutely ineffective at both. Whereas if had you just built a strong foundation yeah. Home first in your marriage and your family. Then it allows you to go out and kill it and you don't have to keep your eye on the back door all the time. You can go out and take care of the front door.
Mike: [00:19:16] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's, you, you kind of said earlier about the tension and you're never going to balance it and you can't spend all the time with your family and that grow your business. But I would say. That I'm not saying your size, but it's like, there's very few that have done it that way.
There's a lot more that have done it the other way, where they spend way too much time on their business. Right. And that's important to acknowledge, to say, okay, um, I have a prediction disposition to go spend a lot of more time on my business. I have a predisposition to just show up and not be mentally present.
So I need to err on the side of being very intentional to be, to be pressed. And it's like, it's easy. See, man, it's easy not to be mentally. Present. It's easy to just coast, you [00:20:00] know? And I mean, I have this thing of like, it starts early with when you're, when you have newborns and you're, and, and you have a newborn baby and you can't really do anything about that.
Newborn baby, you can change a diaper. If you, if your wife breastfeeds like the hubris, you are basically. Useless in a lot of ways, because that's the way it's designed. I mean, that's just the way it's designed and that's, I think you and I share values and beliefs in that system and in, in men and women, but it's like, but you don't let that cause you to go get on a track of complacency and a track of just always being the sidelined, you know, role.
It's like, you gotta, you gotta figure out how you stay engaged, how you bond with this child and all of that. It's like, Yeah, your wife's a lot better at the nurturing thing too, for the most part, you know, but that's not what you're trying to be. You're not trying to be a better nurturer than her. You have a different role.
So don't just coast because of that, you know, and I think it's really important. [00:21:00] It's hard to fix that later. It just gets harder and harder, I believe. But I think that's important for young, young dads, especially that, and that's, that's a struggle for some more, for more so for some than others, but. Very early on, like acknowledging that and being intentional, but it all comes back to what you're saying.
And that's why I like your message. It's like, you need to approach it with the same tenacity and seriousness that you do with some other things. And maybe you're, maybe you're in the business world. That's one thing. Or maybe you're a professional athlete. They would approach that in a very serious manner.
You know, you're going to, you're in a practice certain number days a week, you're going to track your workouts. You're going to be really serious, but you have to have that same tenacity at home too, you know, and it starts early.
Justin: [00:21:41] It does. And you know, it shifts when your kids are really young. You're in more of the, the teaching mode where it's like, or the training mode rather where it's like the don't touch that that's hot.
Right. That's your biggest responsibility is don't kill yourself when you're so young. Cause they don't know what they don't know. But then when they get older [00:22:00] and I moved more into the, the teaching mode where you want to say, don't touch it, that's hot. It's like, don't touch it. That's hot. And here's why here's, it impacts your life later on down the road.
Right? And, and so there, you have to be able to shift as a father and there are different stages and growth points of, of being a father. It's a big part of our message. When we talk about this role of being the guide, rather than the hero is the dad. I think that fits really well into what we're talking about because so many dads, they feel like they have to be the hero to their kids.
And maybe that's because they're trying to make up for an insufficiency or inadequacy that they had with their own dad, or they were a results driven. So they want to live vicariously through their kids and they want to be everything and all thanks to their kids. I don't know. There's a lot of reasons why dads try to play that role, but in my eyes, it's completely the wrong role.
And there are so many books and movies and, and things out there about data as hero. And to me, it's a myth and it's, it's the completely wrong path to take. It may sell copies of a book and may feel good and be inspirational, [00:23:00] but the kids should be the hero of their own story. And here's why if you look at the generation of millennials and the younger populations coming up, so many of them had their parents do everything for them.
They never let them fail and fall down. And have that experience in their youth because, you know, failure at age way different than failure at 28, those micro insignificant failures when they're young are, when they should learn and understand how to deal with failure so that when they get older, they know that process, they know how to fail forward and fail faster.
The problem is they were never allowed to experience that or their parents took it away from them or did things for them. So now they get into adulthood and becomes catastrophic. It's their first, big failure of their life. They didn't have no mechanism of dealing with it. And so when dad plays the role of the guide, he allows them to succeed or fail on their own and serves alongside of them in that process so that they learn through those circumstances.
And then when they get older, guess what they know how to deal with it. The other big piece of that is it lowers the dad's ego. It lowers the dad's pride, and it allows him to bring other [00:24:00] men into their kids' lives that have expertise or skills, or can provide experiences that they can't provide because they don't have those things.
And that was one of the biggest game changers for me as a dad is when I said, you know what? I don't have to be all things to my kids. And that that's part of the frustration and why dads don't engage sometimes is because there's this like innate fear of maybe they didn't grow up playing sports and other kid wants to play sports.
And they're like, I don't know how to do that. Therefore, I am, I'm going to avoid it. Instead of saying, Hey, you know what, son, I don't know how to do. I don't know how to throw a curve ball. I didn't play baseball growing up. It's not something I ever learned. But guess what? I know a dad that does rhino, another guy that does you bring that into your kids' life.
Now they get that experience. You ended up being the hero because you brought them in. It's like the whole thing just works perfectly in that scenario. And the more you can do that, the more your kids get exposed to the fact that they also need to build their lives around other people and ask for help and reach out for additional resources.
And it puts you in the proper place as their guide [00:25:00] along the
Mike: [00:25:00] way. Yeah, I think that's, I think it's a great way to think about it. Really. A lot of it boils down to ego. Like if you want to be that hero, you want to do those things because you want to be viewed as the hero. That large part is probably your ego talking and, and you need to get.
Out of the way, you know, like that needs to get out of the way. It's like, there's just such a clear analogy with like senior leadership in a company it's kind of like a really bad CEO is like thumbs down all the time. They don't hire anyone smarter than them, you know, it's like, but a good one is like, okay, I don't, I don't, I'm not the hero here.
I don't know this. I shouldn't be this, you know, I should be hiring people smarter than me and I should just let them, I should, I should help them in any way that I can with the resources and guidance or whatever, but ultimately, cause they have to thrive. And I'm only gonna be as good company is only gonna be as good as this person is successful.
And that's where it's like, why is there a disconnect there of like that lesson versus in the boardroom as opposed to the bedroom or, you
Justin: [00:25:57] know, the kitchen. Exactly. Right. [00:26:00] My kids are going to be successful and it's not going to be because of me individually. Right. It's my wife and I together as a team.
And it's the village of people that we are going to surround them with, that are going to help them be well rounded and have those experiences. And sometimes it takes somebody else saying something, you know them. So they hear it. Right? I mean, how many times can you remember growing up Mike and your audience?
Probably the same thing your parents may have. I told you something seven, 777,000 times, and one person, a coach, a teacher, someone else says it to you one time and all of a sudden you took it for exactly how your parents meant it. You just had to hear it from someone else in a different way. And so that's the other value in that, right?
Is that your kids, they will grow and they will progress so much faster if you give them that experience. And then. The other thing that that's so critical about that. And I love your analogy with the corporate space. Is that when you think about it, right, you're you are your kid's hero and you always will be that's the cool part about being a dad, but there are so many kids that don't have a dad [00:27:00] and that they need to learn.
I learned that skill set of seeking outside of themselves for other males influenced that can play those roles in their life because there's 25 million kids in America today that don't have a biological dad in their home. So there are so many kids. And so, you know, the audience that's listening, I would ask them to also step up and say, I'm not only gonna do this for my own family.
I'm going to find the single mom in my community. I'm going to find the kids that are adopted, or they don't have a dad in their life. That's their president engaged. I'm going to step up and be that for them too. I'm going to be that guide and, you know, coach teams and pull those kids in because they need it too.
And that's the only way we're going to end this fatherlessness epidemic.
Mike: [00:27:41] And that's, and they're not mutually exclusive either. I mean, like for your, for your kids to see you do that and even involve them in that in some capacity is extremely impactful. It's like, wow, I'm actually, it's, it's, it's the more caught than taught thing, you know, you're, you're modeling.
How you say, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to find those [00:28:00] that are less privileged than me. And, you know, maybe are, you know, have less than me and I'm gonna give them what I, what I have in terms of time or, or commitment or whatever we can, um, that, that is, that's a lie less than, and of itself that you can't, you can't just tell your kids that, you know, they're, they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna do what you do.
Good and bad, you know, and no, I think that's a great challenge, Justin. So thanks.
Justin: [00:28:27] Absolutely. Well, and it's not just, um, it's not just lip service either. We're actually I'm in the process. I'll, this'll be the first time we've ever really announced it publicly outside of the few hinting at an in post, but we're launching the world's largest virtual coaching platform for a middle school, high school and young adults called kid boss.
It's about owning your future, regardless of your circumstances, you have the power to control your future and not play the victim. So whether you had a dad or didn't have a dad, or whether your dad taught you some things and not everything, it doesn't matter, right? You have the ability to own your [00:29:00] future, but you need those guides, those influences in your life to do it and to help set you on a different trajectory.
So kid boss will be a virtual coaching platform where our dad, boss, coaches will coach, um, kids all over. Um, part of it will be paid. Other part of the scholarship then for kids through our nonprofit. And then we're doing three day intensives here at our home in Nashville where four kids will come at a time.
We put them through our, our kid boss Academy. No, they learn all those skills over three days and they apply it all hands on, mites, myself and some other coaches that are here doing it. My own kids are involved. So they're watching the whole thing. We've done a couple of beta programs and it's just been life changing for the kids that have gone through it for me personally, and for my own kids watching it.
And I'll tell you a short story to the kids that came through recently, biracial kids. Dad's not involved in their life. Mom's a single mom. Owns a hair salon, entrepreneur doing her best. She's an incredible mom, but they don't have that male influence. And they're 13 and 15. And through talking to them, we were talking about, um, health and exercise and diet and sleep.
[00:30:00] And I got to sleep and I said, how are you guys sleeping here? And they said, man, we're sleeping. Great. And I said, that's awesome. So how do you sleep at home? Said, and the look at each other that like side look and I'm like, Okay, what's up. And they said, well, our mattresses are broken. We both broke our mattresses and we're too ashamed to tell our mom.
So for the last six months we've been sleeping on our box Springs and we've been using our comforters as like the padding. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Like, that's, that's unreal. Like how can you go focus at school? How can you do anything while you're sleeping basically on, on concrete or on wood.
And so, um, or with a corporation we're going to get them to new mattresses. Right? It's like, how cool is that? But then yeah, he came out of the program. We were able to change these kids' lives and more ways than one, and also meet a physical need that they had. And like, that's what this is going to do.
And I think everybody has the chance to get involved in that, or get involved in your own community and make those same changes. That's amazing.
Mike: [00:30:57] So that's just launching, Hondu like, we'll have a link deck [00:31:00] put in the show notes or something like that.
Justin: [00:31:02] Yeah. You can go to daddy saturday.com for now. We're going to all the web properties and the whole platform is being developed as we speak.
So it'll be a 20, 21 official launch. So we've got the next three months that we're racing to the. The finish line to get this thing going. But yeah, it's an exciting project and it's going to be a big way that we reach that 10 million dads in 10 years, and then fatherlessness, because, you know, I got, I'll tell you, tell you, your listeners will probably get a kick out of this too.
Dads are a pain in the rear end. I'm sitting there coaching all these dads and like half of them don't want to be coached. They think they're a great dad. They're like, I don't need the coaching or, or, you know, whatever. It's just a challenge. And I'm like, instead of trying to coach these dads to be better dads.
What if I went and I provide the solutions for the dads that are there to still do that, which we have all that already. If I go and just get the kids directly and then bring those dads in to be better dads by coaching those kids. And then what's that going to do right in directly influenced them to be better dads to their own kids.
And, [00:32:00] you know, we all win as a result and we take a huge dent out of this fatherlessness epidemic that we have. So that was the method behind the madness. It really came out of a frustration. I'm just saying. Why is it so hard to get dads to step up and, and be engaged in, in self-improvement as a dad? And this was one way to do it is tap into their heart and their, their charitable side of being able to give back.
Yeah,
Mike: [00:32:25] I think, I think that's, that's, that's an amazing approach and I think it's probably gonna work out really well for y'all because I think that, you know, you're, you're going right to the, to the issue at hand. Um, What
Justin: [00:32:39] ha
Mike: [00:32:41] I have a question. I think there's so many dads that their role as a father or their, their view of their children, um, morphs into a negative one of burden, as opposed to a huge source of joy and fulfillment, even though I would say, um, [00:33:00] A role of a father is the most thankless job.
Well, the second only to CEO, maybe of, of a company, right? It's like, so how. How do you cast that vision for what it could be? If they're in a scenario where say you have a dad he's, he's not really present, he's not stepping up. And his kids then are suffering because of it. And there they are then not well behaved and they're resentful or whatever you have this really toxic environment, which is just going to fuel his notion that.
Well, it's just a burden. Right. And so then they're not going to be coached and coachable because they're like, whatever those kids are just a hassle, you know, I'm kind of like the kid, the people at the grocery store, they're like, Oh yeah, wait until they're 12, then they're going to be horrible. It's like, Yeah, you have a really negative view of your kids.
That's great. Talk to you later, you know, but how do you cast that vision for someone like, like, you know what I mean? Like, do you, is it, am I just, am I talking crazy or is that like, do you see that as like a potential, uh, part of [00:34:00] the solution?
Justin: [00:34:03] Yeah, so, so my, my answer to that question is, is twofold. So one I pivoted because, um, I feel like you can get to the kids and the kids can get to the dads.
Right. And so if I go directly at the dad, then what am I doing? Okay. Making him feel even more insecure and inadequate and apt. Right. And so that's part of the problem. I call it data envy. So you're striking that data in the gene a little bit. And then that causes a lot of men to go the opposite direction of how you think they actually should go.
It's a phenomenon that I've uncovered. Yeah. And so you would think that that would hit their competitive gene and for some it does and they'll jump into it and say, okay, I'm going, they get after this. Right. But a lot go the other direction for some reason. And I haven't figured it out yet, but then the other side of that is, you know, I don't know that that's my audience.
And when I looked at my bell curve, I said, okay, I've got 20% bottom. Let's just be honest. They probably shouldn't even be dads. They've got a terrible outlook. They're not engaged. It most likely will never be engaged. There's a [00:35:00] very small percentage of that population that's ever going to do anything to be better to their kids.
Right. Um, it's the 80 20 rule. It plays out in everything in life. It plays out there that 60% in the middle need a little bit of reinforcement right there, right there. That is need to be reactivated re-engaged. So it's about finding out what, what it is. That's going to light their fire, reignite their fatherhood and move them from burden to blessing, move them from inconvenience to assignment.
Right. What they were called to do to be that dad, to their kids, that at the top 20% there's dads, like you there's dads that are they're fully engaged, they're present. They're, they're getting it done. And they just want to sharpen their saw, right. They want to go to the whole next level and really achieve peak, which as a dad.
And so, you know, that's that top 20%. So that's my 80% that I focus on. And so I really don't focus on that bottom 20%, because to me that's not where the fruit is. That's not where the population is going to bear the most growth. Um, and I treat those bottom 20% almost as if it's like the fatherless dad.
And so I got to go get the kids, right. I need to [00:36:00] get them directly. And then there's a chance they may influence the dad indirectly. And if not, at least they're still getting what they need through a program like kid boss or something else.
Mike: [00:36:10] Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, yeah, there's, there's only so much time you can waste on someone that's not coachable or that's not going to receive the message and you might as well focus where their most fruit can come.
And I would agree with you on that. So unfortunately that's a scenario, right? That's the case.
Justin: [00:36:28] Yeah. And you know, it's like, you want to save the world, but you can't save everybody. So you save who you can and you, you focus on the most people you can save. With what you have. Um, you know, I think that there's, there's also, again, the sense there is some technology emphasis here in this, in this conversation, you know, we also looked at how we can use things that are sometimes viewed as a negative.
So if I'm gonna reach a population like that, how can I do it at scale? So we, we created an Alexa skill. So we have an Alexa skill called daddy Saturday, where you can actually go ask daddy Saturday, what you should do [00:37:00] with your kids on the weekend. So look at the weather in your area and she'll provide an activity for you based on the weather indoors and outdoors, put the items you need in your Amazon shopping lists.
So you can order them directly from Amazon prime. Like it doesn't get any easier than that. So there's no excuse for a dad to say, well, I don't know what to do with my kids, or I don't know what I need. Like again, it a box and it's on Amazon. It's your door in a day or two. Um, Or three or four today. Cause of COVID, but you know, it's still, it's still simple practical.
We have Google assistant coming out right behind it. So for those that use Android platform, they'll have their share of that too. And then we have our course dad boss, which is a digital product, right. It's. It's a seven sessions that are about 20, 30 minutes in length. And again, we talk about the investment.
There's a small price to it. It's very affordable, but it's a nominal price to pay, to be a better dad and to get insight from other dads who have been there and done it and have a pathway for you to progress along that continuum. So there are resources out there. There's so many books in the space, right?
It's just a matter of engaging. And what [00:38:00] medium fits the fathers that we're talking to. So for us, it was creating an Omni channel platform to reach them through a variety of solutions. Right. I have a podcast too much like you. So it's all about using the tools and the technology that we have to reach the dads through whatever vehicle they want to be reached in to reignite that role as a father.
Mike: [00:38:19] That's awesome. Well, thanks for chatting, Justin. I love hearing, you know, more in detail, what you got going on and I think you are definitely fighting the good fight and I, I, um, I, it just makes me happy to see all the stuff that you guys got going on and how it's evolved over the number of years. And so, um, thank you so much for.
Coming on and sharing with my audience a little bit of insight, and I would say a lot, bit of insight and wisdom. So, um, I'll link all of this up in the show notes. You know, how people can find you and get involved and, and hopefully go through some of your courses. Cause you have some really good
Justin: [00:38:48] content.
Mike, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and I'm glad we're able to connect and look forward to future conversations.
.
Tyler is a ball of energy and has a ton of wisdom to shore through struggles in his marriage and life. A "normal guy" in many way which makes him approachable but very abnormal in the way he approaches life and the energy that he brings. Find Tyler on twitter (https://twitter.com/tyromper)
Where to find Tyler:
- https://twitter.com/jerryteixeira
- https://twitter.com/jackdcoulson
- Nail in the head video
Transcription below (May contain typo's...):
Tyler: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] I want to be that crusher at work. You want to get your I've done, but you also want to come home and be alive. And I, I talk to my wife all the time. I want to infuse energy when I've walked through the door, I don't want to bring work home.
I want to be that dad that's in there now we're wrestling, we're throwing each other around. We're playing, it's much needed, man. it's so important.
Mike: [00:00:17] I think there is such a thing people miss out on when they're not intentionally immersing themselves in their kids' world.
getting down 'em and just like totally being all about it. Like I'm talking like the character, like they're like getting in on it and it's yeah. I think that's a serious thing because it's about being mentally present, but it's you've got to, it's not just turning your phone off.
It's actually getting in and saying I'm going to actually be engaged with you and it's totally on her level.
Tyler: [00:00:46] Yeah. 100%, man. I agree with you. And they notice, right? Like you're, my daughter can notice, if I'm not present, if I'm not there or if I'm really like last night, we took her to the park and I just had this little thing.
I don't know where popped into my head, where I said, I'm a [00:01:00] robot. To hug you. That's just, I'm just like chasing her around being a robot. Like she's running, we're screaming, I'm hugging her, and it just, it was the best hour of my life, but you can't do that if you're not present, if you're not really intentional about it, So 100% agree with you, man. How old are yours, Mike?
Mike: [00:01:16] So my oldest is nine. And then, so it's nine, seven. four and two, and then we get number five coming effective.
Tyler: [00:01:24] That's right. That's you're good. We're going to have five, man. You never sleep, right?
Mike: [00:01:27] Yeah. Never
Tyler: [00:01:28] see it.
Mike: [00:01:31] No, it's like part of it gets a little easier.
The old, like the more kids you have because they play so well together. it's a lot harder in a lot of ways, but it's like the kids play well together. And, they get out of that higher maintenance stage, after they're like, four plus, like they're doing more stuff, they're more autonomous and it's great.
I love it, man.
Tyler: [00:01:52] Nothing better, man. That's Fred that said
Mike: [00:01:55] we're done at five, but I don't
Tyler: [00:01:56] know. you're, you've got a basketball team. Why not just go for a [00:02:00] baseball team? Great.
Mike: [00:02:01] I will say that, a man is blessed and having, having a children's like having arrows in a quiver, in the equivalent of a warrior or something to that.
The fact, and I Googled what a quiver arrows isn't it's 10. And I was like, I don't know about that.
Tyler: [00:02:19] It's all right for your wife, but there's your answer,
Mike: [00:02:21] fortunately she's the one that's wanting, would want more kids and probably I would, but anyways.
Tyler: [00:02:25] Yeah, man. Awesome. Hey
Mike: [00:02:26] Tom, I want to say thanks for being on Tyler.
Todd tote. Sorry on the podcast here, dude. I, we first met on Twitter. because you are like a cosmic beam of energy man of positivity. And I just love everything that you do. And this is your message. And so I just want to say thank you for one for just totally amping me up every time I see a post from you.
Tyler: [00:02:49] Thank you so much, man. It's honored to be on here too. I've watched a couple of other podcasts and you're a guy that I love interacting with too, man. I think we got the kids thing. We got the faith thing. We got the hard work thing. We got the positivity. [00:03:00] So it's, you're a man that I just love interacting with Mike and it's, I'm honored to be here.
I'm humbled to beyond man. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Mike: [00:03:07] Awesome, man. Hey, I wanted you to tell your story a little bit. I know you were like, you were a professional poker player for a little while. Yeah, I know you also had, have gone through some struggles in your past and your marriage and in your parenting and some of that stuff, and that's shaped who you are and the positivity you bring.
And I would love to hear that story for one. The other thing I'm going to throw at you, cause I didn't tell you before this podcast, I love, you're always posting these videos. Are you doing these workouts at this like outdoor gym? And I have this, I was wondering. Do you about resources around just for dads to do workouts like that with it that maybe don't have a gym membership.
Maybe that's they just have a pull up bar and like they're doing pushups and they're doing running. They're doing, maybe they got a pull up bar and a jump rope. I would love to get your thoughts on that. What's your routine people can do. And maybe we encourage some dads to. Yeah, it's
Tyler: [00:03:59] sad.
[00:04:00] The first thing man is I love Twitter so much too, man. And we've connected through there, but I was depressed the first week Corona hit. Like I was really getting back into the gym and going strong and feeling great and having all this energy then Corona hits and it closes right. And I'm like, what do I do now?
And then I just found, I think, I'm Jack Colson on Twitter as well, and he's a really big body weight guy, JT, Jerry ticks. There's another guy. So I just started following these guys and these guys are beasts, and the cool thing about Twitter is they'll interact with you. they'll just talk to you, you can ask specific questions and they'll holler back at you.
And man, I learned so much the best $27 I've ever spent was on Jack Colson's ebook. And I got a whole list of workouts, body, weight, workouts, and so Yemen, you don't need any equipment. That's the cool thing. Like I have a pull up bar. and that I'm in the best shape of my life right now. And it takes 35, 45 minutes, four or five days a week.
And that's it, So if you're a dad and you think, man, I don't have time. Cause there's a lot of times I still don't go to the gym probably four days a week. Do the body weight workouts. You're at home, just in my garage. Or we got a couple of walk down where [00:05:00] there's pull up bars and cool. Places do it outside, but yeah, I'm just doing little circuits, man, where I'm doing high knees, I'm doing planks, I'm doing pull ups.
I'm doing, just creating little circuits that I do that man after 40 minutes of that. And just my energy level goes from here to here and I'm ready to conquer the day,
Mike: [00:05:15] And I
Tyler: [00:05:15] think in bank
Mike: [00:05:16] I'm big on like involving your kids in the workouts too. I'm not working the videos you've seen, but those are my favorite.
Tyler: [00:05:25] Those are fun.
Mike: [00:05:26] I think it's cause it's kinda like we're doing this. you're making a decision. That's part of it and that's what I've seen with you. It's yeah, I don't have time or I need to do this. It's I tell my kids, I'm like, no, we're going for a run. Get on your bike. I'm throwing the young ins in the jogging stroller, the older two around their bike.
It's this is not, it's not a question. It's a statement.
Tyler: [00:05:41] Yeah.
Mike: [00:05:42] And it's showing that, Hey, we're devoted to fitness. I'm not going to push them to mind bike 20 miles. I'm not saying that, Hey, we gotta do this. We're doing this. And,
Tyler: [00:05:50] and you know what?
Mike: [00:05:51] Tyler every single time they might whine, but like we get down the road and they're there.
They're having a ball and stuff. It's
Tyler: [00:05:58] and it's the most amazing thing that [00:06:00] you're so right, man. That's 100% true. And my daughter, when I started doing the circuits in the garage, I posted a bunch of videos and pictures. Dude, we go out there at least a couple of times a week. Now she picks the music.
So we got Shakira on there. We got whoever it is, call me. Maybe I work out to that all the time. Cause that's her favorite song, but you were out there together, she's doing planks. Sh daddy, look at me, look what I can do. I see daddy doing burpees. I can do burpees. it's just amazing to be able to give that gift, Yeah. And it's something my parents established into me and my dad. That's really big into fitness that at 63, he's still running 10, 12 miles. He's still lifting every other day. He's biking, So he gave me that gift, and I feel as a man and a leader of your family, you need to be able, that's true.
Priority one. everybody wants their children to be healthy. No parent would say, Oh, I hope my kid ends up. Really overweight and unhealthy with a lot of disease. Yeah. Nobody wants that. So it's on us to pass that on, and it's amazing. It's like you said, The funniest thing is, I've been walking barefoot a lot.
I've been doing this now for a couple of weeks back
[00:07:00] from work, and we usually eat dinner as a family. We share wins, and then we go for a family walk, Just a couple miles around the neighborhood. And I just take my shoes off. Nobody's said anything about it for a few days. Now my daughter, just without saying anything, she takes her shoes off, And it's just, that's the thing about being a dad and a parent that I know, is it's the most amazing and gifts your kids are always watching you. They're always looking to you. And so it's one thing to say, Hey, go, do fitness, go do this. It's another to lead by example and to involve them in it and to make it a really fun family thing.
And that's what I tell a lot of people I talked to just make it fun. 10 minutes of you dancing with your kids, doing a fun little workout, dude. They're going to remember that their whole life,
Mike: [00:07:37] Yeah. And it's a duck, but it's a, the leading by example is a double edged sword. It's if you're not doing that, you're also teaching them that.
Or you're doing things like, say you're always on your phone. It's they're going to want to be on a screen. And it's yeah, you got to have that. I'm not a Nazi about that, but it's like, You gotta be cognizant of that
Tyler: [00:07:54] 100%. I say all the time, I just, I wake up every day, I'm a routine guy, just do my gratitude journal.
And I [00:08:00] write before this, I gratitude almost every day. I write that Tinley makes me a better one, man. She does because I'm cognizant of that every single day. And of course I mess up, we all mess up. But it's I know she's looking at what I. Eat the way I talk the way I talked to myself, the way I talked to her, the way I talked to my wife, the way everything, how I talk about my job, do I get to, or do I have to, Tinley, she's watching all these things.
She's old enough now. And so there is some pressure that comes with that, but it's also such a gift in it. I'm grateful for it, man, because she literally makes me better every single day, And that's what fatherhood has done for me. And it's been amazing,
Mike: [00:08:33] Yeah. So you had two right.
Two girls, right?
Tyler: [00:08:38] We have one that's our own. And then we have a five week old who, if I look tired, man, it's because I was up till about 1:00 AM last night fostering right now. So we went through fostering and, God willing her mom has given up six children before and has no interest in her.
So we hope to get to adopt her man, but it's an aunt or an uncle or somebody could always pop out of the woodwork, but [00:09:00] yeah. yeah, that's fostering her right now. So yeah, we love her man.
Mike: [00:09:04] that's a, that's definitely like a calling something you got to, is it a whole different animal? I have some friends that have fostered even a little bit older kids, that are three, four, even older than that.
And it's that's just a whole nother set of challenges, that you deal with. And. So I applaud your wife.
Tyler: [00:09:20] My wife is the Saint man, and I just, I married somebody that's a thousand times better than me. She makes me better. And it's when she approached me about fostering a couple of years ago, I said, no chance.
I gave her a hundred reasons why we're not doing it. Ma I'll wear my heart on my sleeve. I'm going to fall in love with this kid and have to give them away no way, no chance. and then I felt God just tugging on me and tugging on me and I. we talked about it. We want to be kingdom givers. and she said, what's the best way we can truly change.
The world is one kid at a time, given one kid a bunch of love at a time. And so she talked me into it. Now I'm all in, man. We're probably gonna end up with 10 kids. Like you, we've already got plans for a second now we've opened up another bed for a second. So that's [00:10:00] great. Yeah, we're all in on it now, man.
Mike: [00:10:02] Orphans and widows my man orphans. Yeah,
Tyler: [00:10:05] that's right man. Hundred percent. That's what we're called to do. I
Mike: [00:10:08] love it. I love it. tell me a little bit about your story, man. I'd love to hear about some of your journey to get to the point where you're at. it's not always great talking about like failures, but I know you have a lot to share in the way of wisdom in how maybe you didn't do it right in the past.
And that's one of the things I love talking with dads about because. Mostly just from sharing wisdom so that, newer dads can avoid some of those things. and as a way to reflect, to say, Hey, I'm being cognizant of where that might be in creep in the future. So
Tyler: [00:10:37] I'd say when we, I was pretty into fitness, I was certified trainer back in the day. Then we had our first daughter a little over five years ago. And at the same time, I went back to school full time because I dropped up played professional poker before that done really well. But then we have a family and it's, I don't want to be in Vegas.
when we were living in Illinois, half the year, I'm traveling. So I go back to school. I take a steady job at a bank. [00:11:00] I get promoted really quick and within a year and a half, I'm running that whole bank. so now I'm working six days a week, I'm working 45 hours a week. On top of going back to school on top of having a newborn and it just crushed me, Yeah. I didn't eat the right things. I didn't, I stopped working out completely for about 14, 15 months. And I did it with this sense of I'm going to be selfless. Like I see my wife struggling with a newborn. I love my daughter Tenley to death, but she was the worst baby in the entire I didn't, I loved her, but I didn't like her for about the first eight or nine, but she just, all she did was scream for about it.
You're nine months now. She's like the easiest kid ever, but male
Mike: [00:11:40] like that, man, our first was like that he just screamed all the time and it was just like bedtime was like a nightmare. You would like, Oh man, it was like a blur. It's honestly a blur. I feel you on that, man. I feel
Tyler: [00:11:52] you so much anxiety would be building up because of the second year we bought sleep suits.
We bought this penguin suit that was supposed [00:12:00] to show she couldn't move her arms. we spent everything we could try and get to get her to sleep and she never slept, man. She just did. She just screamed for. 15 hours a day for eight months,
Mike: [00:12:09] but it's weird. I'm sure Kelly's like this, like my first one,
Tyler: [00:12:12] he, it
Mike: [00:12:13] he's a totally laid back kid now.
Like it's so strange how you would have, I would have thought he would be different, with that attitude, but it's not like he was like totally different.
Tyler: [00:12:27] Yeah. She never had terrible twos. She's the most compliant child. Now you can tell her, Hey Tenley, please do this. And it, she doesn't ever talk back.
She's the greatest kid, but yeah, for whatever reason, man, she was a terrible, we tell her all the time. Yeah, you were a terrible baby man. You're the greatest kid ever now, but mommy and daddy didn't sleep. So we were going through that man. And I just, I, trying to be selfless and be good husband.
I thought, it's selfish of me to take an hour a day, so I quit. I didn't do a gratitude journal ever. I didn't do declarations. I didn't, I [00:13:00] just woke up and tried to help. And then I went to work, really stressed out, and then I ate terrible food at work because I was really stressed out and I never put any time to myself.
Then me and my wife's marriage just really started struggling, man. I hit the rocks. We weren't connecting. It was, did you load the dishwasher? Did you do this? We never set aside time for ourselves just to. To do the things we needed to do to connect. And so I looked at it and a year and a half in man, we're on the brink of divorce at this point, we were sleeping in separate rooms.
It's hard to say looking back, we just, we never took time for ourselves. She didn't, I didn't. And I think we both did it when we started talking about it. She tried to do things that filled me up selflessly, but she never filled herself up first. And I would try and do things for her. Hey, I'm doing the laundry over here.
Why are you yelling at me? they want me to do the laundry. she needed me to be alive and to be able to. Be my best self so that I could pour into her. And so once we hit a little counseling patch and we really got to the bottom of things and we realized that, yeah, if we don't fill [00:14:00] ourselves up first, then we have nothing to give each other.
And we have nothing to give our child. We have nothing. I was a shell of myself at work, I'm going into work and I'm so drained. I'm eating four donuts a day. I'm just trying to get through the day. And I remember saying this all the time, even in my employees, It's only two o'clock. We just got to get through the day,
Mike: [00:14:19] Yeah.
Tyler: [00:14:19] And looking back on that, man, geez. Now I just spring out of bed and I can't wait to tackle this day. we never get this day back. Let's go, it's a gift, but it's such a mindset shift and it starts with the daily routines. And what, how you're. Really speaking life into yourself, but I didn't do that for 18 months.
I didn't lift weights. I didn't, maybe go for a, jog a cup once every couple of weeks or something, but I just never intentionally put that time into myself. I'm so I had nothing to give. I had nothing to give my wife I've, I was still a pretty good dad. Cause I'd just, you can lay Tinley on your chest and watch a football game when she's that old, but I just had nothing to give anybody else.
And so that was the big shift for me, man, is realizing if I can just. It's waking up an hour [00:15:00] earlier. That's what I do now. I wake up an hour earlier and I put that whole hour into myself. I journal gratitude. I pray, I talk to God and then I work out and then at that point, I've bettered myself.
mentally, physically, and spiritually. And then my girls wake up and they got an on fire dad and a non-fire husband. Who's just ready to tackle the day. But if I wake up and I play on my phone, I'm anxious. I'm, and then the whole day starts, then my daughter needs something.
My little one needs something. My wife needs something. My work needs 50,000 things. Then it's the stress and the anxiety and it's E so to me, it's all about really being intentional and getting up early. And that was, yeah. Whole difference for me that's all that's what did it, and then of course working out, man, you've just got energy, man.
Energy creates energy when you're working out a lot and you're feeling good and you're being healthy, you're putting the right things in your body. you got a lot more energy to play with your kids to be that light at work that can motivate people and feel a lot better,
Mike: [00:15:52] Yeah. No, I think it's so interesting.
I can relate a hundred percent. I almost made a joke. nah, I've never had that happen before, but
[00:16:00] Tyler: [00:16:00] before I call you out on that,
Mike: [00:16:02] that's right. I, I definitely agree with you. Haven't gone through those like cycle. probably multiple times, but,
Tyler: [00:16:10] it's interesting
Mike: [00:16:11] how it starts out with good intentions.
Like your strap at your, you're throwing on the Superman Cape. You're like, Hey, I'm going to be the Superman dad and I'm going to sacrifice. And so the intention is good. Yeah. you're you think you're doing the right thing. But it breeds ultimately resentment on both sides,
Tyler: [00:16:28] And that's
Mike: [00:16:29] dangerous like that. It's toxic because that's like a cancer that I think gets in there. And like you said, it gets you to the brink of divorce and then it's then that's a whole nother beast, and I think. Man. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Like I said, I love all the energy you put out and it's interesting to me how people probably watch it and they're like, Oh yeah, he's just got, she's just naturally energetic.
he's just one of those guys and it's right there might be true to that. But I think like you said, energy creates energy and the more you invest in yourself, the more you are excited, the more you have [00:17:00] that. the spring to give to other people. And man, I can't agree more.
Tyler: [00:17:05] 100%, man. That was the cool, like takeaway that we took.
When we started by counseling, we went to counseling for maybe six, eight sessions. And our counselor said on day one, she goes, Oh, you can, you guys are going to be easy. She goes, I see this all the time. You're both good people have good intentions. You want to help each other. You're just not doing it the right way.
And she's the one that kind of pointed us towards, you got to fill yourself first, And so now, and this has been another, just thing that I've learned so much on from Twitter, it's fit founder, Dan and
Mike: [00:17:30] Dan goes, does this.
Tyler: [00:17:33] Yeah. Oh, he keeps on yours.
Mike: [00:17:34] Yeah, you gotta
Tyler: [00:17:35] look. Oh man, I can't wait to listen.
Oh, this guy has so much wisdom. He has just bettered my marriage so much because Oh, I can't wait to listen to this man. But yeah, he talks a lot about setting goals as a couple and dreaming as a couple and auditing those goals as a couple. And so my wife and I now, man, we hire a sitter. Every single week, we take three to four hours where her and I take a long walk and a swim and we just hang out and we intentionally connect and we talk about what [00:18:00] fills each other up, how we can do that more, how we can make sure we're getting filled up first, all these things.
And it's made all the difference in a marriage, man. all the things that. We were lacking, that just made such a big difference for us.
Mike: [00:18:11] Yeah. and some of the stuff that you said where you talked about putting on the, the Superman Cape, and you're trying to do all these things.
The other person almost becomes the focus of your marriage. So one thing that I feel like I'm still learning a lot is not having the kids as the center of your marriage or not even your spouse as the center of your marriage. I think both of us share a common faith with having God as the son of your marriage, but it's kinda like you, the more you focus on those things.
It seems like the worse it gets. If you're focusing on them, primarily if you're saying, no, I want to, and this is a careful, because you don't want to be overly selfish. if you're like, yeah, no, I'm going to train you, bro. The ultra marathon, I'm gonna have to run hours a day. I'm never going to see you.
It's but I'm just doing that well at [00:19:00] work,
Tyler: [00:19:00] that.
Mike: [00:19:01] Like you said that the intention is true, but I think that's just where people get off base. Like they, they just neglect that and instead say, Hey, you need to work on yourself because you need to be physically fit. You need to be emotionally fit.
You need to be spiritually fit. Yeah. Or else you're not going to do a darn thing with, to anybody, anyone, anything but destruction. Yep.
Tyler: [00:19:21] 100%. I know, like I don't, I will ask you this. Cause I noticed when I marriage will get off course for even a couple of days or whatever, I always notice. It always goes back to me, not leading in the way I should.
I'm not leading us in prayer. I'm not, we're not reading scripture together. Like we normally do. We're not watching sermons. We're not, we, you get off course for a couple of days. Yeah. I always notice it when we don't put God actively in the center in our marriage. Nothing makes sense for us, That's our core. That's what we go to. Our marriage is blessed under the one. True God, we say it together all the time. Nothing can shake that cause he's in the middle, And so yeah, whenever we turn away from that for a couple of days, you just get busy, whatever it is I noticed that's when we struggle.
Mike: [00:19:59] Yeah, [00:20:00] absolutely. Couldn't agree more. that's, that is a hundred percent true. We pretty much covered everything, man. We solved all the problems.
Tyler: [00:20:07] the world's at peace, man. You know what I'm going to listen to today when I go work out after this is you and Dan podcast, man, 100%.
I can't wait to listen to that. Dude has so much wisdom.
Mike: [00:20:18] so tell me a little bit about the marriage counseling aspect. And they talked about, setting goals for yourself or, working on yourself, setting goals a couple, or you talked about some of that. if someone is listening to this and they're at some they're in the spectrum, somewhere of dealing with that craziness, right?
Like they're in that crazy cycle, I think, is someone going that term? And what's the breakout. what's the. What are some of the baby steps that they can do in your mind? reflecting back on some of that craziness to say, is it just calling the counselor? is that, or it's like, what else do you do?
Tyler: [00:20:53] a couple of big, actionable things is number one, take ownership 100%. So my biggest thing was I would [00:21:00] blame. my wife just doesn't get me. she doesn't understand me. She doesn't, I look at me, I'm doing all these things and she doesn't get it. She's thinking the same thing, So number one, you always look inward first and my wife and I, now, when we have a disagreement, it's really funny because, and it's I'm so I didn't communicate that well enough, I didn't communicate that. That was important to me enough. So it's cheesy, but over communicate of course, and then take ownership for every part of your marriage.
So if my wife is not. if going and seeing friends is really important to me, she needs me to do this. I need to communicate how important that is to me. Hey, I'm really extroverted. we've been cooped up with COVID for three months. I need to go out and be around 5,000 people because that's who I am.
I need to communicate that in a way to her where. It's out in the open. She knows how important it is to me. And it's on me to do that. I read the book extreme ownership by Jacqueline Willick. That was big in my marriage. I know it's not a marriage book per se, but it really hit me big.
And that was an actual thing for me of, I'm never going to blame her for anything. When our marriage isn't working, I look inward and now she [00:22:00] does that too. And that's just huge because when we struggle a little bit. now she's reflecting and saying, what can I do better? How can I communicate to Tyler better?
And when, and I'll do the same. And then we come to each other with that mindset and it's so much different. And then the other big thing, man, is for men. This is huge. This was the biggest light bulb for me that I just, I it's changed our marriage a hundred percent and I still fail on it all the time.
I failed three weeks ago, I got a thread coming out on Twitter about it actually.
Mike: [00:22:26] But
Tyler: [00:22:27] yeah, when you get in that little crazy cycle and your wife brings something to you. our first instinct as men is we get defensive. Or we fix it real quick
Mike: [00:22:36] and there's this really good little hobby that's never happened.
How dare
Tyler: [00:22:39] you, Tyler
Mike: [00:22:42] I'm offended, sir
Tyler: [00:22:45] is the first instinct of me is just to say really defensive will look what I do for the family. I do all this and I do all that. And how can you come at me with this? She just wants to be heard, and that, to me, this was a light bulb that my counselor told us, there's this really good [00:23:00] video on YouTube called the nail on the head.
Have you seen that or? Yeah, I've seen
Mike: [00:23:03] that. Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler: [00:23:04] It's so amazing. What would you put that in there, man? It's so amazing. And it's this wife that comes, she has a big nail in her head and all she wants is for her husband to hear her and empathize with her. and so I started really studying this a lot more when I got this principal.
and if you observe five or six women around each other, Having a conversation, what they will do is the first mom will say, Oh, my daughter is just so hard. She's crying at night. I'm keeping up the dishes. I it's so hard to keep up. Then the next mom will be like, Oh, I know sister, my girl does this.
My son does this. It's so hard. then the next, and they'll go around in a circle. No problems are solved, but they're all heard. All the women are art. If they're validating, they're acknowledging the yeah. Another one I share these problems with you. That's how women tend to share life together. Men, dude, if I got a problem, I said, Hey Mike, I got this problem.
I want to learn how to work out better. What you got for me? Hey Tyler, I got this, I fixed it. I'm good. Hey, thanks brother. Let's go. that's the [00:24:00] difference between men and women, right? Men are fixers by nature. So when my wife comes to me, I want to give her a fix. Hey do this. You're doing it wrong.
Do this, but that was, that's how I did marriage for the first few years. And now once I've realized she brings something to me, she does not want me to fix it. She does not want me to value. She just wants me to validate it. That's it. She wants to be heard. That's how she shows life with me. And it's also a hack because now instead of us going back and forth for two or three days about this thing, I've listened.
I've validated, I've acknowledged her. And now it's it's checked, it's offered. she knows that I'm there for her. That's how she shares life. And it's we move on to the next thing, where we used to get stuck on these little things for days and weeks and months, because she, all she wanted was for me to validate her and acknowledge that what she's doing, So to me, that was the biggest takeaway for men. If you're listening to that, Don't get defensive. Don't try and fix it. Just acknowledge and validate.
Mike: [00:24:54] Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. That's a lifelong lesson that you gotta to learn
[00:25:00] Tyler: [00:24:59] constantly,
Mike: [00:25:01] No, I, a hundred percent I'm with you on that. It's funny that you say that because the start of this podcast, I asked you about, workout tips, to it's I just want to action plan, man.
Just tell me how.
Tyler: [00:25:12] It's I don't want it. I don't
Mike: [00:25:13] want you to hear me. I just gave me the three steps, man.
Tyler: [00:25:17] That's how we do. You ever listen to a group of men? A guy will tell a problem. A couple of guys we'll give them solutions and we go, and that's it. but if you really listen to how women communicate is so different, and it's mind blowing to me because I sit that stresses me out.
I'm like nobody fixed anything, But they don't care about that. They just want to be heard. They want to be validated, Yeah.
Mike: [00:25:34] that's great, man. No, I think that's a huge piece of advice. that's a fundamental foundational piece of marriage advice that definitely fixes a lot of issues.
Tyler: [00:25:43] It's huge. It really is, man. It's really huge. Yeah. And then, too, when your marriage is on fire and your marriage is good, it's so much easier to pour into the children when you have that rock first, and you mentioned too. Not putting the kids is everything me and Andy talk about that a lot.
Like our kids are going to be gone [00:26:00] someday. So it's really me and her and our mission, and we let our kids know that like it's mommy and daddy are going to connect. we're getting a sitter for this week because it's important for mommy and daddy to have that time. laying that out for them.
I want my daughter to be in a great marriage someday, so I want her to lay across that time too. Yeah.
Mike: [00:26:17] and to realize in that scenario, how much is caught versus taught, like holistically more is caught than taught, but it's like, Listen, your kids are probably gonna have the marriage.
You have to some degree. obviously not a hundred percent, but they're going to learn so much. And one of things, my wife and I talk about is that I don't mean to dog on my parents, but they had a pretty good marriage, but one of things they didn't really do is resolve conflict in front of us. so when I saw them fight, that was always viewed as a hyper negative.
So like early on in our marriage, especially learning how out of fight or how to discuss something and actually work through, it was important to, and I didn't realize this, right? Like that we, it came through us talking I'm like I realized this was never really modeled to me. So it's like my [00:27:00] parents would have a fight and then they're going to go in the other room or they're going to work it out somewhere else.
So it's always this negative connotation of an argument. But I never see a resolution, so it's Oh, I just want to, I just want to not do that. And by my nature, I'm a, I'm an, a conflict avoidance. Like I just want everyone to like me like my personality. So then that plays into it.
So even unlocking that and saying that's okay. That's just was my experience. So I just have to be cognizant of that, especially when I want to avoid a conflict or, I'm adverse to like working through it or talking through, it's So all that to say, thinking about how, okay, how are we modeling this for our children and what are they seeing?
What are they picking up on here? how am I talking to my wife? How am I loving my wife? How am I serving her? They're going to see it. You don't gotta explain that to them. They see it. You know what I mean,
Tyler: [00:27:45] man, I can relate to that one. You just, that was like 57 great pieces of nuggets, a number one.
How can anybody not like you, Mike?
Mike: [00:27:51] Thanks
Tyler: [00:27:52] for being in the world, man. But now my parents too, that had a great childhood. Everything was awesome, but they didn't fight in front of us. They sheltered us [00:28:00] from all that. It was a very negative thing. I remember them not speaking for a couple of days at a time here or there.
You remember that stuff as kids. And so you really always want to be cognizant about that. Everything you said there, man, I'm a hundred percent that, my tendency is to avoid conflict too. That's something I've worked really hard on the last three or four years. And I noticed in a marriage, especially if you avoid it, man, it just gets bigger and bigger.
And then. A few months down the road, you're fighting, but you're not fighting about that one issue. Now you're fighting about 72 issues and you're going back and all these things, and that's why it's so important to deal with things, head on. if you're a good marriage, I think you're having disagreements every now and then, If you're in a passionate marriage, because I was divorced early on, man, we didn't fight for four years until she cheated on the left. we never had one fight. Because I just always said, yes, I had no backbone, we'd never had any conflict, and you need that, we've have some passion in a marriage you need that,
Mike: [00:28:51] Yeah. And I think that you said, you said it a little bit on your breath, but you don't have a backbone and I think that's an important thing. so as you become. [00:29:00] A dad. And if you, especially, if you have a wife that stays at home, there's this, foreign yes. To your role, is there, so like like your wife has her domain with kids and she's better at it.
why women are just better at it better, but it's different. They're, they need both of those roles. But in terms of especially zero to two, They're better at that level of care, straight question. I don't think you and I would debate that. I don't think a lot of men would debate that,
Tyler: [00:29:27] but
Mike: [00:29:28] that creates an awkwardness where you're just a helper.
And you get into this mode of just saying yes, and I'll just do whatever you say. and that carries over, right? I think to other areas of the marriage, where I think then you start to abdicate your leader role. And not only is that not a good thing for your marriage, I don't think it's a good thing for your, like how attractive you are to your spouse, like
Tyler: [00:29:49] hundred they
Mike: [00:29:50] might not like the Bush back, but that's part of, Women love a confident man.
You know what I mean? that's just how that's
Tyler: [00:29:55] just hardwired into them and
Mike: [00:29:57] you don't have to be a jerk about it,
Tyler: [00:29:59] but it's [00:30:00] yes, urban leadership.
Mike: [00:30:01] It's like a hundred percent. And I think that's not true about enough obviously. Like in today's day and age, that's probably, they wouldn't.
They would say, Oh, equal roles or whatever. But that is to me, we get a whole topic about that, but that's a whole, that's a whole toxic,
Tyler: [00:30:18] like it's so tonic a hundred percent. And my wife tells me all the time I crave you to lead. she's I make a thousand decisions a day. I don't really want a man who just.
Oh, I don't know. I don't know why you decide, she craves me to leave. She craves when our insist that we're praying together, let's get, Hey, I see you're stressed. I bring her over. Let's get on our knees and pray about it together. He wants me to lead like that, but it's a circle leadership, and my wife knows I'm the first one?
Just say, dude, I dropped out of college to play poker. She's got a PhD from Purdue. Like my wife is a baller, she's smart. I learned from her all the time, but still I need to lead my family. And and she wants me to lead my family in certain ways. But you said that it creeps over with a little one, and even you mentioned in that now I realize [00:31:00] I'm learning.
I need to be a little more cognizant of that too, because zero to two, man, I'm just trying to keep them alive. I'd have to hold them like this. Do I do this? Do I don't know what to do? Oh, it's really fun being that dad, when they do older, you just play. It's awesome. but when they're really young, yeah.
You're kinda, you have to ask your wife what to do a lot. so you can't really let that creep over. that's a light bulb for me right there. That's something I'm a journal about probably right after. Yeah. That's a good takeaway, man.
Mike: [00:31:23] Yeah. It's interesting. Like my dynamic, I'm the youngest of four.
My wife's the oldest of eight. So we have that kind of going against us to some degree in the sense that she is. And she's a very like. I wouldn't say strong-willed cause there's a lot of negative connotations as a strong woman, she's an amazing woman, but it's like, she's the oldest. So she's naturally, bent towards the one that's Hey, I'm taking responsibility, I'm stepping up, I'm leading.
And I'm like, I'm the baby of the family. I wasn't spoiled by any means, but it's like, there's a natural birth order. there's implications of birth order that not naturally go against, some of the things
Tyler: [00:31:57] a hundred percent. I was the baby [00:32:00] too. I had an older sister and my older sister. I love her man, but she was such a rebel.
She just, she dated the, the guys that probably weren't the best for him. So my parents, by the time I came up, I just, I was pretty compliant. I was the most spoiled kid in the world though. I had a grandma that lived next door that would, I could order them, whatever food I wanted whenever I wanted, she would bring it to me.
Yeah. And my parents spoiled me. It was, so that took a lot, man. And for me to really step up and be a leader, we moved about a year ago. We live back at home for the first few years of marriage. And I realized that was a crutch too. And I think that's a big problem in marriage that a lot of people don't talk about is we both live near our parents.
And so sometimes when we had conflict. That would seep in, I would, it I'm ashamed to even say this man, looking back, this is so terrible, but I would, Oh mom, I, here's what happened, and then of course your parents love you. They're going to take your side. Oh, she, your Annie just needs to do that.
And, looking back, gosh, I cringe when I say stuff like that, our marriage needs to be. Us, and it, for us to move away now, that's made a big difference. And I do miss my parents on a certain [00:33:00] level. We still talk all the time. We're close, but I've let them know since then that it was not healthy, what we did.
And I sent a long email to our family about eight or nine months ago saying you're out, I love you guys. And we'll talk about these things, but these things are off limits because as a man in my marriage, I need to make sure this stuff stays in it, and it's just for me and my wife, there's a bunch of things that are just for me and my wife,
Mike: [00:33:21] Yeah. No, I think that the
Tyler: [00:33:23] in law thing is tough to navigate sometimes.
Mike: [00:33:25] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a, obviously both of us are a little ways away from, but like thinking about, okay, what's how are we going to equip our kids and be sent to that? And
Tyler: [00:33:35] yes, that's
Mike: [00:33:37] I can't even imagine that right now, the onus is on you to raise your children, to be, have good discernment for who they're choosing as a spouse.
because my wife and I agree with this. It's like once they choose and they get married, it's like you have to leave and cleave or clean what I, they like to be leave their parents and be United, as
Tyler: [00:33:57] everyone. And
Mike: [00:33:59] yeah. And I [00:34:00] think that. That's scary to think about, to be like, how would they know?
how they know to be able to pick that right person or, you naturally want to help them. And it's you gotta be hands off. And that might be painful. it's the shirts, the exponential version of like them falling off a bike and skin in their knee. It's you realize that you got to take off the training wheels.
They're going to skin their knee. That's fine. I've learned. But it's That happens in marriage. both of us have shared like journey where it didn't go the best, it's you got observed that and you got to not jump in. you can't put the training wheels back on because that's detrimental,
Tyler: [00:34:31] my wife and I have talked about that a lot.
Actually. I know it's a long way away, but yeah, we've talked about that a lot, that kind of grandparents that we want to be. And again, not to knock off, I have wonderful parents. She has wonderful parents. They've done so much for us and it was our fault. Looking back, I take ownership of it because as being spoiled, I, I live close to my parents.
I would go. Go there and say, we're struggling with this. and again, I cringe when I say stuff like that, but I put the onus on myself for that. It wasn't really my parents trying to pry or trying to get in, but that was just a crutch that we had. and that's a [00:35:00] big tip that I get people who say we're struggling.
number one, nobody should know a counselor or something is different. Take it to one best friend, a guy who can hear you or something, but your families should not be involved.
Mike: [00:35:12] Yeah. Yeah. I. A hundred percent agree. cool, man. I, That's I think that wraps it up. I feel like we could talk for a two hours though about it.
Tyler: [00:35:21] Oh yeah. Again, we'll probably be talking in like a couple, I'll be at the gym and a couple of hours and we'll be tweeting back and forth or something. I'm sure, man. I enjoy all of our interactions, man. It's been fun. I learned from you and just hearing you talk, man, you have a very clear sense of who you are, who you're going to be.
I appreciate that. And I just, that's. My favorite thing about Twitter, man is it's free and I have learned. A freaking thousand things. And I keep learning a thousand things all the time, Amazing.
Mike: [00:35:48] Thanks, man. I appreciate those kind words, man. And yeah, I'm with you. It's if you use it you can use it wrong, but if you use it it's powerful.
So you up on the show notes, to your Twitter [00:36:00] profile, but then some of those other resources that you shared, especially the nail in the head video. That's a great one. So thanks for being on, man. I appreciate it.
Tyler: [00:36:07] Man. It's just a real, it's a blessing honor having me. And I appreciate you and Mike, I, I know we share faith.
We share so much in common, so yeah, anytime and I look forward to chatting with you all the time, brother.
Zac Small runs a mastermind group for men called Fraternity of Excellence. He is helping men become the best versions of themselves and lead their family well. He shares a bit about what the group is and why it is needed.
Where To Find Zac
Fraternity of Excellence - https://fraternityofexcellence.com/
Blog - https://thefamilyalpha.com/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/ZacSmall_
Zac: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] I would rather be successful than appear to be successful. I'd rather just have a happy life, a connected family and all these things. And to your point on working on yourself, that's where it all starts.
you can't fully enjoy your life. If you're physically incapable of it, going out and enjoying your life. if you can't hike a mountain, you'll never see the tops of mountains. You'll never see that view. You'll never earn that with your children. if you always tell them, Hey, you go train for your sport and you eat right.
And you read your books, but you're the father. And you're sitting there not reading, always on your phone, always playing games on your phone or playing video games on television. And you're eating crap while your children, they follow your example, not your advice. They're going to follow what it is you do.
Mike: [00:00:43] Are you living up to your full potential? Do you have people and other men around you that are calling you to a higher standard and holding you accountable? The answer is probably no, because it's pretty rare in the world today. so today I had on a [00:01:00] podcast Zak's small who runs an online group, called the fraternity of excellence. And he's aiming to do exactly that a group of men to hold each other accountable, call each other to a higher standard so that they can be.
The husbands they need to be. The dads they need to be and the members of the community that they need to be. And it was a great conversation with Zack and to hear about what they're doing over at fraternity of excellence. So let's jump into the interview with Zack.
on the podcast this morning, we have Zach small and I wanted to have Zach on cause he is a man's man and he's a dad as well, but runs a site called fraternity of excellence, which is a fraternity for dads men. really just encouraging them to live their best.
most, most potential, is what I say. And uniting dads and men to be real, authentic men. And so Zach, thanks for being on the podcast.
Zac: [00:01:56] Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Mike.
Mike: [00:01:58] Yeah. Hey man, I, maybe we should just start [00:02:00] with excellent. So I know you do a lot of writing, you do podcasting as well.
but just tell us a little bit about what fraternity of excellence is and how it came
Zac: [00:02:08] to be. So what's really cool is I was on FOS our inner communication channel right before we kick this off. And one of the guys put a reminder out that today's our thousandth day since we kicked it off. So we've been in day and we've been in operation for 1000 days today.
Wow. That is awesome. So a thousand days ago we had just finished up a 31 DTM campaign. I wrote a book called 31 days to masculinity. And I started doing these community campaigns where we all come together. And for 31 days we'd focus on just stripping everything down and rebuilding it back up as men.
And at the end of that, I was like, I want to keep this going. And one of the men inside there was Craig James for masculine by design.com. And he's I love this. He's and I can do it. I can build this out. I was like, dude, let's go in on it together. So we together co-founded fraternity of excellence and it is a long form permanent version of what 31 DTM is about.
It [00:03:00] is every day going in, you're mixing up with other men on a mission. you're joining, there are subject matter experts in every field. So there are guys who are there to, they want to improve their business skills. there are men inside looking to improve their family skills and want to be better fathers.
just last night we had to zoom in for an hour and a half. I was talking to a bunch of other gentlemen about being a better dad. I'm swapping notes and issues I've been having with Corona issues they've been having, how can we work together to fix that? And it's just the entire group builds itself up.
our momentum is generated within, we don't need exterior. So all the guys inside work with one another to improve and it's working.
Mike: [00:03:34] That's awesome. So tell me about what, the progress people are finding that they're making. we talked about like building just products in general, like people are like, they're wanting to make progress when they buy a product or something.
And tell me about. How people are like, Hey, I've looked for this other places or cause you're obviously solving a problem that in the world is that, men are not getting right. There's a, there's that fraternity aspect. That group dynamic the [00:04:00] trust. If you will, that people are, we're not getting other places.
And they're saying, Hey, I want to unite myself with people that have a like mindedness and Hey are focused on excellence. So tell me about like maybe some of the success stories people have had. As a result of it, or, where they say, Hey, I looked at it, I looked for this other places.
I couldn't find it. So
Zac: [00:04:19] one of the best examples I give and you've probably experienced, this is men will go out and they're like, all right, I want to start working out. I want to get healthy. I want my marriage. We're just, co-parenting, we're just existing together. And this isn't what I was promised.
And this isn't the best I think is out there. And they start to that's where the seed kind of starts. And then they go out and they, their kids' sports teams, like none of the other day, I really want to work out. They don't ever want to talk about anything else. The, of family guy or the NFL, that's pretty much, the topics of discussion or when they get drunk, they'll get drunk and they'll have these great plans.
We're going to build this, bro. And we're going to go out there and going to make some money. And we're going to, we're going to, we're going to kick it off. And then the next morning they wake up, hung over and nothing ever comes of it. They [00:05:00] start clicking around and they'll find my work.
So I write@thefamilyalpha.com. That's where my personal writings go. They'll find that. And then they'll go through the links and they'll join and our stories and the best successes are so across the board, that'll blow your mind. Like some men will come in and their children and them simply do not like one another.
And their success story is that they were able to fix themselves and therefore form a better relationship with their child. And all of a sudden, they're not yelling as much. They've stopped with the spankings and now they're white if that's getting fixed. So not only are they fixing the relationship with the child, they're fixing the relationship with the other person in their child's life, the wife, or the mother of the child, they're not so hypercritical, they just start working on themselves.
They start finding peace in life. One of the often unmentioned successes guys have is that we do and what you and I are doing right now, you're running a podcast. I have a podcast. We can sit and talk to pretty much anybody about pretty much anything, because you never know what a guest is going to say.
So you've got to be ready. That's a skill. [00:06:00] A lot of men who join, they have forgotten because since high school, maybe college, they've never been with a group of men. So they forget. And not just men, I'm talking motivated, men who are on a mission. when you join foe, we have multiple group chats. So you are not only expecting to show up similar to you.
All right. Now, face to face looking at me, hearing my voice. You've got to also hang with the guys in the conversation and somebody might not like what you have to say. So when we have many disagreements, but we handle it like men and all of a sudden these guys find their voice instead of being me and, just talking low they're like I want to be heard.
And through these group Trek chats, We pretty much train them how to find their voice in the world. All of a sudden they can stand up to their boss and be like, no, I do deserve a pay raise for X, Y, and Z. They can stand up to their family members. Know you're not going to continually, put all your burdens onto me.
Like you need to handle this. We don't talk about problems. We work towards solutions and these guys they're losing weight. They're finding confidence. They're improving their relationships. There's making more money [00:07:00] starting businesses. It literally is an endless list. And if I were to click on it right now, something new will have happened.
I guarantee it. So we're seeing it across the board and it's awesome. And I'm not just saying that as a cofounder, like literally every day somebody is doing something.
Mike: [00:07:13] Yeah. No, I think that's awesome. And I think it's, there's a, I think men specifically react when they're called to something, a higher level of where they're performing now or a higher purpose.
And I think. there's a void of that in society right now that of holding them to that standard. There's a complacency that's okay. That, that is that a common narrative. And I think men just shut down because of it. You're like, okay, we're just going to, you need to be called to that.
that's an eight in who we are. I think as men, and I think that's why I was so excited to see what you're doing, because there's such a void of that. you just see it popping up in, online, some of these have different circles, but, So tell me a little bit about, what, I'm just curious, how does it work in terms of, them like getting more people on? Are they like, are they saying, Hey, I'm seeing, I'm recruiting [00:08:00] people into the fraternity of excellence. because to me, one of the things that is frustrating sometimes is people in your spheres, in your immediate spheres are just talking about sports or they're just talking about a sitcom or something, and you're like, I want more than this.
And then you find it out, you find it on like a site like this, and you're like, Hey. Someone else, identify in my network, Hey, come join this. and there's this natural synergy and like snowball effect, tell me a little bit about that.
Zac: [00:08:26] So you used you and I would get along very well. You use two words that I absolutely love it's complacency and standards.
So men have become complacent and that's what causes every problem that they experience beyond that they get comfortable and all of a sudden doing the uncomfortable things, which came naturally lifting weights, reading, going out, facing things, confronting people. they stopped doing that and they're comfortable.
They get complacent and then life starts to pass them by. Nobody holds them to a standard because technically, if you really look at it, you don't ever have to meet his standard. Like right now, in this day and age, you have to go out of your way [00:09:00] to feel discomfort because you're in a climate control box in your house.
You go to your climate control box in your car, to your job, climate controlled and then reverse it. And somewhere in there, you could tap your phone six times and food shows up. And that's it. You could live a whole life just like that. it's insane. That is not conducive to it. lived, in foe there are standards and you don't have to show up at 1%, but the guys that show up, they have to be chasing something.
You're there for them purpose. I tell them when we onboard them, look, you're here. You're paying money. make sure you get that times 10 of the value. And if you're not going to, you have to get out. And I've had to kick a few guys out because month after month, they're in the same spot and that's not what my group is about.
And if I allow that in, but that's just gonna breed complacency around the rest of them. So it's got to go. We're looking for motivated. Even when you have a bad day, we have a channel just if there's an emergency, you're down, drop something in that channel and then we'll link up. We'll help you.
We'll circle around, identify it and fix it the way we grow though. a lot of [00:10:00] the guys say, Hey, No, I've got this group and I'm going to go show you my buddy, cause my buddy needs this, but he won't take it. And not often do we see those handouts ever being picked up and ran with, because you're going to make somebody just uncomfortable.
they're going to have to experience discomfort. The best thing we've seen when it comes to groups, real-world groups coming in and joining us of the men is when they just start fixing themselves and the guy goes to them, Hey man, you're looking better. you and your wife, you're laughing a little bit more like you're starting to go up a few levels and we're still down here and we're noticing like, why is it, why is Timmy?
likewise, Tim, all of a sudden happy and jacked and smiling and confident, I want that. What are you doing? And then he'll say, Hey, I joined this group and they didn't do it for me, but they gave me the tools to go out and succeed in life. They opened my eyes to the things that I couldn't see before.
And then that guy, like, all right, I'm jumping in. Yeah.
Mike: [00:10:55] You said like they didn't do it for me, which I think is a really important thing. If you're saying, Hey, we're not [00:11:00] going to hold your hand, but we're instead going to call you to excellence and we're going to support you in that path. that's what I, it sounds like you guys are doing, which I think is really cool because you can't.
There's a lot of people trying to sell that like easy path to success, right? and that's not what you're selling at all.
Zac: [00:11:18] They skipped the most important parts is the process like going from sitting too much to getting up and running, that you have, you can't just go from sitting to being able to do a marathon.
It's that grind in between that makes you who you are that instills the grit and confidence. you can run a race when you've trained your ass off for it. But if somebody says, Oh, magical powers, you can go run. you didn't change anything. You're still complacent and lazy mentally, and the mind, body and spirit are they're all linked.
So if you don't, if you're training one, you have to train the other two are, you're never going to succeed.
Mike: [00:11:47] Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about, so one of these things that I feel like there's, not enough emphasis on doing the work on yourself and the cascading effect that has on the rest of your day on your [00:12:00] marriage, on your kids and on your relationships.
And, one of the greatest piece of advice I ever got was. Don't ever try to work on your marriage, work on yourself, mind, body, spirit, spiritual, physical, mental, all this, and there's gonna be a natural cascading effect. And the interesting thing there is, it seems like there's a lot of advice around how to fix your, just your marriage or this is, we gotta do it.
Just fix your kids this way. And no one wants to talk about how. You need to do the hard work on yourself and how everything else will take care of itself because, and that sounds simplistic, but I think there's, it's gonna fix 70 to 80% of pretty much a lot of your problems. If you're working out the kids, see dad working out, that's naturally going to make them want to be more physically fit.
You're gonna be in a better mood. So you, I think so goes the father. So goes the household, in terms of if they are. Not snapping at the kids, if they're not like if they have high energy and they're able to be mentally present, physically able to [00:13:00] keep up with playing with their kids. I saw a video of you, on the beach, you don't play with your kids.
yeah. You're not sitting on your phone or you're also not so fat. You're just sitting on the bench. You know what I mean? Like it's serious. It sounds stupid, but it's serious,
Zac: [00:13:11] It sounds. And I get it. Cause when I say it, like I have very similar conversations and I think the same when I say it, it sounds dumb, people hear this.
They're like, Oh yeah. And they always think we're talking about somebody else. Whoever's listening to this. We're talking to you. You need to be the one out there doing that thing with the kids. You need to be the one who will go out and play catch and not just sit in your phone. that video you're talking about.
On the ride to the beach. I was handling something online, but when we went there, I put my phone away because there's no need for me to be on the phone at that point. So you learn how to balance these things. I'm not saying you're not allowed to have a phone around your children. this is my job. I write, I record, I speak.
That is my life's work. That's how I make money. I need to have access to doing that 100%. I get it. But the time with my children is [00:14:00] limited. And those moments we have together. I don't want to be the dad who says, I brought my kids to the beach and then check a box and put that on social media. You took a photo for kids that's that wasn't present with your children.
You were trying to check out for the outside world to look inside your life and say, you're successful. I would rather be successful than appear to be successful. I'd rather just have a happy life, a connected family and all these things. And to your point on working on yourself, that's where it all starts.
you can't fully enjoy your life. If you're physically incapable of it, going out and enjoying your life. if you can't hike a mountain, you'll never see the tops of mountains. You'll never see that view. You'll never earn that with your children. if you always tell them, Hey, you go train for your sport and you eat right.
And you read your books, but you're the father. And you're sitting there not reading, always on your phone, always playing games on your phone or playing video games on television. And you're eating crap while your children, they follow your example, not your advice. They're going to follow what it is you do now.
What are these you say? [00:15:00] So you need to make sure you're doing the right thing. I'm constantly evaluating myself on this. Like I said, we had a zoom last night where I had to evaluate my performance as a dad and not many men ever consider that they never even think, am I a good dad? am I good at being a dad?
You've probably never asked their kids. How could it be a better dad? That's a weird thing to ask. Good for many people. Hey, how could I be better for you? But that could open up insights. You would never even imagine. I asked my kids, Hey, how could I be better? You're an awesome kid. I love you.
You're my best daughter. And you're my best son. I've got one of each. So it's easy to say that. And they're like, all right, nothing. You're good. All right, cool. Let's keep going. But I leave that door of communication open and that does extend to the wife. if you're physically fit, she'll be more attracted to you.
That's how it works. These guys that are fat, that are saying, I should get more respect from you and more sex because that's what wives are supposed to give their husbands. those are things you earn. Like she's not a robot, she's a woman. You've got to play the game a little bit, like literally for life, if you're married to her.
And that [00:16:00] includes staying physically attractive, being mentally attractive, not somebody who's just always defeating himself or always complaining because no matter what you do at your job, You could be making, you're not pulling a million dollar paychecks every year. you're a multimillionaire, your paycheck.
Isn't what makes her attracted to you. if you come home, women complain, all she sees is a due to complaints. Nonstop. Sure. You have nice things, but you're just a complainer and all your children C is a dude who just complains nonstop. Cool. You're closed a fricking huge international deal. They didn't see that.
So you've gotta be a stead at work, come home and be a stay at home. And your life is going to be fantastic.
Mike: [00:16:35] Boom. there you go. There's the rest are for success for Zach small
Zac: [00:16:39] wrap it up.
Mike: [00:16:40] I think that's important though. I think what I was kept thinking about with that is a, earning it.
Obviously you said that, but, to realize there's going to be trade offs in that. And one of the things I feel like I've learned over the last couple of years is you're not gonna able to go golfing with your buddies that, maybe we will, but it's not going to be as much, you're not going to, you're not going to be able to do some of these other things and that's okay.
[00:17:00] So pour yourself into some of these areas of loving your wife, loving you, loving your kids. I'm not saying you do that sacrificially. I still think you need to work on yourself and you need to take a high level of self care, but this notion that you can do everything. Is just false or you need to realize that you're going to have mediocre success.
If you try to do everything right. It's
Zac: [00:17:21] if you, even if you were like a really good golfer
Mike: [00:17:24] before, I don't golf actually, but it's
Zac: [00:17:26] I have clubs.
Mike: [00:17:27] So it's a bit of a bad example, but it's you can only do so much and you need to realize your limitations.
And if you're saying, if you're upset with. How have your marriages or your kids are doing, or just your physical health, you realize, okay, I gotta prioritize these things and I'm gonna put time in there. And there's a lot of stuff I'm not gonna be able to do. And that's okay. You need to be okay with that.
And, surround yourself with people that do those things. And that's where kind of this fraternity of excellence really ties into that because it's rare to find those people. So you end up getting sucked into those, Things that are like five through 10 on the, importance [00:18:00] list.
And then those suck up all your time. And I firmly believe, like you said, more caught is more caught than taught is the, is the phrase where you can talk all you want, but what actually you do is what your kids learn. And so if you're prioritizing these things, they're naturally going to prioritize those things.
And I think that's important to be aware of,
Zac: [00:18:20] Absolutely. the motto of my blog, as well as my life mantra is acting on Verba, which is Latin for deeds. Not words you can say. I want to be a great dad. I want to be a great husband. All right, then why are you overweight? Why don't you spend time with them?
And why are you so focused on exterior perception of happiness and connection that actually instilling it in your family? if you truly wanted that you would do the things necessary to do it instead of looking to look like it. So people don't actually want. Actually people don't actually want to work for the thing that they want.
They just want to give it to them. Just want it to just magically happen. And you're absolutely correct. You cannot self sacrifice your way to happiness. you can't say, I'm going to put my wife first. I want to buy her a new [00:19:00] car and make sure her hobbies are filled and I'm going to make sure I get the kids new gadgets and make sure that their hobbies and schedules are filled with sports and things.
And I'm going to go and cheer them on. And that's going to make me get respect and happiness and life satisfaction. That is absolutely false. That is the trap many men fall into. They think they're just supposed to be the workhorse and everything comes first and they don't worry about themselves.
They're always last and that is not healthy. That is not to anything close, remotely, close to a life well lived, and your children are going to be their best because you didn't achieve your best. So in two weeks, I'm going to Florida for five days at the 21 convention. I'll be speaking there. And my wife had kids.
Can't go because schedules didn't align. I couldn't very easily justified. Hey, I can't go speak because my family can't go with me. Sometimes you have to put yourself first. Sometimes you have to do things where it takes you away from the family. That's a business trip. I think that's a hunting trip.
even if it's making sure you get away to go play [00:20:00] golf, which neither of us do, but let's go, let's keep running with that example. I think I'm getting golfing later today. So mini golf, I'm doing that with the family, but there are times where I'll go shooting without my family. you need to have personal time.
You need to develop yourself solely yourself, going to the gym. a lot of people work out together with their wife and kids, if their kids are old enough, but I strongly advise you make some time where you go by yourself as well. You need to be a man that not everybody knows everything about.
You also need to meet. It need to be a man who can provide value to others. And the only way as a man, you can provide value to anyone is if you have value yourself, and that means you have to put yourself first, you've got to win your race as well as helping pushing others in their race. But it is, it's the whole mask thing from planes.
if you can't breathe, how can you help anybody else breathe? If you're not happy, how are you gonna help your children be happy? if you're not satisfied, how can your wife be satisfied? You've got to take care of you and then you can help them.
Mike: [00:20:55] Yeah. And that dissatisfaction or the, the lack of even self-respect, because you're not, [00:21:00] respecting yourself flows out into all your relationships, I think that's another key aspect is you can only fake it for so long.
if you, you're saying the superhero dad or whatever you want to call it where, Oh, I'm just going to do all these things for, I'm gonna do these things for my wife and for my kids. That only lasts so long. if you're running with the airplane example, it's you could probably hold your breath for a few minutes.
You will help a few people. Yeah. You might do a good job helping those two or three people, but you're going to die after that.
Zac: [00:21:26] It's
Mike: [00:21:26] it's not going to end well, if you don't on your own math, the one thing I wanted to come back to is, as you said, I'm going to ask in your kids, it, if you're doing a good job as a dad.
So my oldest is nine. Wow, that's crazy. And, we were going through this exercise of like core values as a family. in my business we have core values and we're drafting those. It's we should do that for our family. Like just to write them down, we talk about them, let's draft them.
And it was interesting to talk to our kids, explain what core values are. And we say, what do you think is important to us as a family? And [00:22:00] some of those things were. You know what it were expected, that we, eat right. Or, we, we go to church, so he's spiritual.
And, but some of those things were like enlightening to hear about Oh, is that what we want to value? it's that's a good barometer for how are we doing here and what are they actually seeing us value? Even though we try to say that things are certainly valuable to us.
And I think that's a really good assessment. But maybe one that people aren't ready to hear. But need to hear. And I think it's important.
Zac: [00:22:30] No, it absolutely is. And you're absolutely correct. Some things you find out are going to be hurtful, but that's what greater motivator could there be?
the finding out that your kid, You're just like Peter Griffin. He already says, dad, you're just like Homer Simpson. You're like, Oh my God, like that's who I am in your eyes. we've had men that, and that was what hit him is their kid said something like maybe they overheard the kids heal.
My dad couldn't do that. And you're like, Oh man, I don't want to be that bad. they started working out and that was their fuel, but like that tough [00:23:00] love do nothing hits to the core faster or more painfully than disappointing a child or a child. Thinking negatively of you, even if it's just in an innocent assessment.
Mike: [00:23:10] Yeah. It's interesting. You talked about that being a motivator for some of the people in the fraternity of excellence, do you think that the road to change can only come through like an eyeopening experience like that? Or a big, not disappointment, but like failure of some kind or something, or big, obstacle that you had to overcome?
tell me about. Some of your thinking on that or how you've seen that in the foe members of, Hey, I had this come to Jesus moment or the kids at something, or, hit rock bottom in some way. Do we, that's the only way you can make a meaningful change. and then tell me a little bit about like how foe members have
Zac: [00:23:52] talked about that.
So there's two things. One you're asking incredibly timed questions. [00:24:00] So just last week I changed my opinion on this answer. So it's funny you bring, alright, I've got a man. We had a guy join and he's killing it. Great family, great. Everything. He just realized that he recently moved to a new place.
And none of the men there are motivated, they're not dedicated to any higher calling or purpose or drive themselves. And he knew of foe and he's I'm taking the plunge now because I don't want to slip, I don't want to fall back on anything I've achieved up to this point. So there was no, like a lot of people get sober after they have a really crazy drunken night, something really bad happened.
They blacked out the crash, the car something happened, like right now I'm not drinking. that is the case for a lot of men for some men. No, you don't have to hit rock bottom. You can just realize, Hey, I'm doing well in many areas, but I want to do better. So how do I tap into a social network?
You know what, like a mastermind group where I can start getting ideas from men and behind the scenes wrecked access, and that's their drive. They want to get access to those who are killing it. whether it's a social media, self-made in that endeavor of [00:25:00] writing and podcasting, or they want to do sales businesses, with physical products, whatever.
We have everything I'll jump in. They find their guy and they treat that like a mentor and they push themselves to great Heights. It's been amazing to see are there men? And I would say probably the majority found themselves coming to us because nothing else worked. They try, they're still drinking, even though they tried to stop drinking or they're still struggling with a kid kids, whether it's, like they, they want to stop spanking their kids or yelling at their kids.
those are two big ones, lack of sex in the marriage or relationships. We've got a lot of single guys dating or divorced men as well. They get divorced. I don't know how to get back in this sphere. All of our friends were our friends. So now they're not my friend because they think it's weird to hang out with me and not my ex-wife.
So I've got nobody. So they join us. They find that network of accountability for men, they also find out how do you get, if you've been married for 20 years, Tinder, wasn't a thing, there was no online dating that wasn't a thing. So it's how do I navigate this new market we're in?
And they get, dating [00:26:00] advice. And that's like I said, for single guys or divorced men. So we see all of it, but I really want to stress. I used to think that you'd have to smash into a wall to realize I need to change the path I'm on. You don't, you can take the exit before the wall, get off the highway, man, like before you crash.
And this is what I did. So I'm 70 something days sober today. And I share that and I constantly share it on certain podcasts because I want to highlight, I didn't get a domestic abuse as you. I didn't get a DUI, nothing bad happened. I didn't black out and ruin my house. Nothing at all happened.
Except I was sitting, I was drinking a glass of wine and I was like, this does nothing positive for me. And I just, why is it a part of my life? Yeah, I was just addicted to alcohol. So I stopped who knows maybe the week after I would have gone to a party, had one too many. And all of a sudden my truck crashes, not like my whole life has jacked up and my whole reputation is ruined online and everything I worked so hard to build is destroyed.
I listen when I hear that little voice in the back of my head. And so I'm done. [00:27:00] I hope others start to hear and find that voice because if something is saying, something's wrong in your life, it probably is. And drinking or eating it away. You're doing as you're pressing that fricking button on the detector.
So it stops going off, but that are still tearing your shit down. That fire is still burning hot and destroying your life. So just cause you don't hear the alarm, you didn't fix the problem.
Mike: [00:27:24] Yeah, I think that's a good analogy. You were talking about the exit ramp before the wall. And it made me think about what are the elements to success if you don't have that motivating moment.
and I don't, I wouldn't say I've had this motivating moment. I did have a little bit of a motivating moment where a kind of a come to Jesus moment in, even in high school, when I was doing a lot of, Party and things I shouldn't have been doing and actually got in a car accident. And I was just struck by what I was doing and how that was affecting my life and totally changed course.
but. I think about that. And I think about [00:28:00] someone that has the DUI, or has even just like maybe they had a domestic abuse issue and then their wife left them or somebody, a big divorce that you can concentrate on that this is me speculating. You can concentrate on that and say, I'd never want to go back to there.
Or I never want that to be the case. And I don't want to be that person to, whereas. So that you can always, that's like the motivating thing you can come back to. It's like a fuel if you will. But if you don't have that and you instead are saying, Hey, like you were saying, I don't see any value in this drinking.
And so I want to not do this anymore. It sounds like the fuel than you need is other people that are thinking that same way. you need other people in the same, in both scenarios, but it sounds to me, or seems to me that. If you don't have the big motivating moment, then it's like, how do I surround myself with people that are going to be motivating me in college, this greater level of excellence, because I'm, it's seeing their success a little bit.
I'm seeing someone just ahead of me that I can say I'm inspired by this person. Maybe someone just behind me and saying, [00:29:00] wow, how can I help this person and realize that I've made progress? And that's not a bad thing. You're just like, Hey, I'm three steps ahead of the journey. let me help this guy out.
I'm going to pull them up, but in pulling them up, I'm going to realize, Hey, I'm three steps higher than he was, that's awesome. Now I want to go three steps higher than this guy ahead of me. and he's reaching down, And he's Hey, let me tell you how to get to this, these next three steps.
and I don't know, I didn't really have a big point there. It's just I think it's okay. That's what the importance of these networks that maybe were desperate before, you had these random people that were speaking to your life and it's like, how do you organize that a little bit more if you don't have that big moment, If you're saying, Hey, I don't think the prerequisite is to have this big crash, this rock bottom moment. Instead, I'm just seeing what I'm living and what I'm doing. And. I know I can live up to more than this. I know my potential is greater than this, and I'm pissed off that I'm not living up to that potential.
And so how do I find people that are gonna push me higher? They're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna make me uncomfortable, but I recognize that I need to be uncomfortable [00:30:00] to achieve that level that I'm capable of. And it's just really cool to see tribes that are popping up that are answering that need that maybe he was.
More commonplace with like your neighbors. maybe it was, I don't know, or maybe the world was just more naturally uncomfortable, so people are okay with it. I don't know
Zac: [00:30:22] the guys who come in who are in the latter group, you were mentioning, always trip me up because I'm an extreme guy.
Like I'm all in with whatever it is I'm doing. And if that's drinking, I'm going to party hard. I was the guy running around. Let's do shots. Let's go. If I'm going to work out, let's go balls to the wall all in on, whatever it was I was doing, I was all in on that thing. And we've gotten a bunch of guys who joined and they it's almost like they feel guilty or they feel like they missed out on something by not having some sort of addiction or some sort of like crazy moment.
They're like, I'm fine with drinking. And I work out I'm healthy and I read and I do things, but my life is just man. And it's [00:31:00] you're like totally opposite me. Like they're upset that they're so centered. I'm trying to figure out like how to center myself instead of being so far left or right.
Like I'm trying to dial it in and they want to test it out. So it's interesting where, what he thinks the other person has the answer or the other person's doing better, and that's not the case. And that's the beauty of foe is that there's no clone to chase. Like you are on your journey.
And you've got to figure out what works for you. And if you don't have a sense of purpose, let's talk about finding passion. If you're so centered that you don't know how to have a fire in your heart and how to speak from your chest, let's start there. You don't need to be a crack addict recovering, or are coming back from a hard crash of divorce to find passion that fuels those people.
For sure. That's their moment, for many of the men, their moment comes when they go through third one DTM, because there are several days that says, what are you running from? and people will find, sure, I got the DUI and crashed my car, or I got into the big argument or whatever, but that was only because I was [00:32:00] drinking so much.
let's peel the layer. Why were you drinking while I was drinking? Because I couldn't maintain any healthy relationships. Why couldn't you do that? and the new dial all the way back to their mother abandoned them with were two years old or their father beat them and they couldn't find love.
And then they just start beating themselves. Cause they thought they were worthless. All right, now we have something to work with. Now let's go all the way back to that thing that hurts so bad. You've carried it for decades. Let's work on it. Let's fix it. Let's bring it to new Heights and use that as your fuel.
it doesn't have to be some grand thing, but also we don't have to make our template, these template for success for others. my, the guy that trains me, he drinks alcohol and I don't. I there's no way in hell. I'm going to look at him and be like, Hey, you should stop drinking. His life's put together.
He doesn't have a problem. So our problems are ours to bear and ours to fix. And it's not ours to project onto the others that were now holier than now, because we fixed that one aspect because we have no idea the demons they're fighting.
Mike: [00:32:55] No, I think that's an important note. I think. [00:33:00]
the notion that it's not one size fits all I think is very important because I think it gets you out of the mindset of, Oh, I just need to be that. I just need to achieve that success, that status, physical, physique or something. To whereas it's more about like we say, it's coming full circle to what we were talking about in the beginning.
It's you need to work on yourself, you need to figure out like, what is your unique scenario and what are the, what is your past say about that? How has your past shaped your current and how has it not going to shape your future? which I think is really important.
Zac: [00:33:34] And it's beautiful when you see that click.
we have a guy in there who was pretty overweight. So in foe, if you share anything personal, like any personal information, we ban you immediately. So that's the line I'm dancing right now on talking about this.
Mike: [00:33:48] Oh, you mean if this guy talk about someone else?
Zac: [00:33:50] Yeah. Yeah. Like I can't like, that's just our rules.
The guy's overweight. He's lost like 50 pounds and he's still got some weight to lose. [00:34:00] And he's happy as hell and we're at point they would lose, their 50 pounds and they would still be like, Oh, I'm still not good enough as that person. And this is where I say the process is so important.
He's the habit has become to work out. The habit has become to eat. And that's going to get him to much further than popping a pill that would have lost those 50 pounds. It's the process it's instilling the habits. It's appreciating the body, instead of shutting down and saying, Oh, I don't look like Franco Colombo, or
like you're sitting and beating yourself up because you're comparing yourself to the 1%. How were you yesterday though? I've just beat the guy yesterday, be 1% better today. And some days you'll be 5% better, something will happen. things will align, for a lot of people, it's no weight loss problem.
It just falls off. they just had to work their way up to the body's okay, we don't need to store this anymore. we're eating healthy and we're good to go. So drops if they quit though, because they're beating themselves up for not being. Whatever, this mental image of what successful looks like.
they're going to fail because success is beating you yesterday. I will never be like when I [00:35:00] die, I hope to leave behind a beautiful corpse, and a happy family. who was singing my praises with friends, there's no taking the foot off the gas. It's not what I'm 60.
And to retire. Like I will never retire because this is life you're doing it. I'm doing it. We're doing this to the grave. This is just who we are. We happen to have a microphone in front of us at this point in time, but the Michael go away. We'll still be doing exactly what we're doing now. Looking to get better.
Mike: [00:35:23] Yeah, I think that's interesting. You were talking about who we are, the suspicion that there's, or I should say this hypothesis that there's.
Zac: [00:35:34] People
Mike: [00:35:35] give too much credit to that. Oh, that's just Zack that's who he is. He just goes, balls to the wall, but I'm not that, and it, I'm just normal person or as normal guy or whatever.
There might be a little bit of truth to that. There might be, there's like there might be 20% that's attributed to that. But seeing that unlocked in someone. That it's no, you're just not this mediocre person. yeah. you're living up to your [00:36:00] actual potential. I think is huge.
I think there's a lie that's been perpetrated that it's like, there's these people that are just wired that way and whatever, and there's this acceptance of mediocrity that is then passed off as a personality aspect or a personality trait of the people that are, Uber successful or just driven, when it's like.
When you actually start working on it and you start seeing success, or you don't even see success, you just see how you actually, you completed the training. it's like you're saying with the weight loss, it's like, if I can say, I'm going to work out five days a week, I'm going to run a mile every time I'm gonna do 10 pushups.
We do that for a week. You do that for a week and you look back because those seven days, and you say, I actually did that. It doesn't matter what the scale says, Zach. It's I did that. I accomplished the goal. I made a promise to myself and I kept it. Okay, what's next, you're like, that's a natural fuel and then the results will follow.
it's like we were talking about before. It's if you work on yourself, your marriage and your family will increase or will get better. And [00:37:00] I think that's just a lie. And I'm curious, in the foe members, like there's some that you said that had these rock bottom moments and there's some that were then motivated to be more, but are there.
Instances where people have said, wow, or you've seen members have called out the transformation. They've seen of saying, wow, you're like totally different person in terms of mindset and motivation. You turned into that Zach's mall, right? Like you turned into one of those people, that's got the fire, got the, that is a driven person.
Zac: [00:37:31] So I don't ever want them to be me. I did not take the right path. I took the long way to get here. So yeah, most recently I gave props to a guy who. When he first joined, he would listen to the group chats and he'd speak if called on majority of time, he would talk in the chat, but he wouldn't ever really go face to face.
And then I think I called him out on it or somebody just straight up said, dude, like start speaking and get out. you gotta join the [00:38:00] discussion. You got to get better. And he did. He started speaking. And then he went to our live meetup. So we had a whole group, we all met up. I was like 20 something of us.
And we met up, we had a great weekend together. It was awesome man time. And it was cool to see him standing there, like legit, like a whole new man, like his presence, his energy was all shoulders were back. And he would speak to you like this, where before he would, talk from like his throat, not his chest shoulders would be in, you wouldn't wanna take up space.
And then beyond that in the group discussions, he would start speaking to the whole group and leaving the conversation like, Hey guys, I think we should start looking at it like this. And what do you think? And all of a sudden, when you did you do that, you put yourself for critique. The moment you put yourself as, Hey, I'm going to lead this group.
You are now 100% free to be critiqued by that group. Why do you think we should do this? Who are you to tell us to do this? What makes you think this is going to work and not that, and you need to be able to defend all of those points. That's why a lot of people struggle with leadership is they don't, they're not able to defend what they see, because they're just saying it, but it's not a true [00:39:00] vision.
They're just saying the words they think will be successful and not believing in the mission themselves. So this dude like believed in himself and he started leading in. I was like, man, your whole life is going to be better because you can now talk to these guys like that because that translates to friends, family, work yourself, just looking in the mirror.
all these things. And there's something to be said about, our day and age of social media, and this is one of the reasons I share my failures more than my successes. If I shared my real life, people would not believe it, but you're making that up. So I don't, I share all the times I failed.
I struggled as a kid, I was a shitty student relationships failed like mistakes. I've made my personal issues with substance abuse, things like that, People don't normally talk about that because they're trying to paint this picture of, that the great life lived and that's just not the truth.
And I think that's why I found success is people are like, Oh, you're just a normal dude, like 100%. I'm just a man with a family, try to do my [00:40:00] thing. I'm trying to help others along the way. And that connects with people because they're. I guess we're all tired of seeing the story of the person on Instagram, who is sitting at this nice restaurant or has all these cars or there's all these, and then you just find out two months later, Oh, it was all a lie.
they were just sneaking inside restaurants, too photos. They were sitting in other people's cars. Like it's just enough bullshit. Like we're all sick of it. So I've come to find, or I've come to the, that in the land of conformity, authenticity rings King and what's amazing is in our day and age, Authenticity means you're all banged up.
You're all scarred. you're things are just jacked up and you're sharing that story of, Hey, I lived, I failed. I've succeeded. Here's my story. And back in the day, it used to be the perfect story, the perfect princess, the perfect King, the night, whatever they were, the ones you wanted to be like.
And nowadays we're like, fuck, like we, we have so many people who have such perfect lives and every aspect of it, you start to hate him. You're like, why is it? You're like this isn't real. And people are realizing that. [00:41:00] So I think it's important that we own our flaws and we turned them to features like I'm five, eight, I'm not six, seven.
I've probably got like average IQ. I'm not like some genius who can sit there and tell you all these theories. When I talked about things, I usually plug in the chords of emotion because I'm a passionate person, but I'm not going to be the guy. Who's Hey, check out my PhD. And because whatever the hell I came here, I was drawn to me.
I can't even think of the damn word, but it's. These people are trying to flaunt the wrong things and what people want to hear, where they're going to learn stories is real individuals, just like them who have failed and found a way to pick themselves up and keep going.
Mike: [00:41:34] And that last line is key.
pick themselves up and keep going and strive to get better the next day. And I think that's, that has to go hand in hand, right? it's like that's, what's, that's, what's enticing. The authenticity mixed with a, desire to improve is I think really compelling, as opposed to, that you could take and say, yeah, I just wanna be authentic.
This is who I am, I'm just overweight and that's just my body don't shame me. it's that, no, that's not appealing to anyone. [00:42:00] that's appealing to people that don't want to feel bad about themselves, anyways, sorry.
Zac: [00:42:03] It's a little tangent, but it makes perfect sense.
Like I said, we're on day 1000 of foe. If I were to go meet all of my guys right now, and I've been telling them, work out, eat right. Lead your family and find purpose in life, all these things. And they met me and I was like some fat dude in his basement with my wife hates me and my kid. Like I would lose all credibility, like F we wouldn't work because you have to live the message you're telling others to live.
Mike: [00:42:27] Yeah. thanks Zach. Thanks for being on man. foe we'll link everything up in the show notes. and it was just a pleasure to talk to you to pleasure to realize that you're just the real person that I saw on Twitter and engage with. So
Zac: [00:42:40] that's the best compliment you can get it, honestly, but I hear that it makes me like chanting.
Yeah.
Mike: [00:42:44] it's interesting because. I, I started this podcast and I'd reach out to some people and I'd interview them, but I'd get people that would reach out, want to be on the podcast. And those ended up being the worst guests. And sometimes I wouldn't even publish the episode and it's there's something, there's a lesson in there somewhere.
Zac: [00:42:58] that in itself is a [00:43:00] podcast. Oh my
Mike: [00:43:01] goodness. anyway, thanks for being on Zack. Yeah, like I'll link everything up. Fraternity of excellence. you should definitely check it out. if that, if all that we talked about over the course of the last, like 45 minutes is compelling to you, check out what Zach's doing.
thanks for keeping up the good fight, man.
Zac: [00:43:15] Awesome. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate your time.
Struggling is essential to learning. We know this intuitively but it’s easy to forget with kids. It’s also a careful balance of letting our kids struggle while offering them just enough guidance in the process. The topic of struggling moments is what today’s guest specializes in. He helps companies with innovation by identifying these moments. He’s also a father of 4 and we talk about some of the ways he helped his kids find their career path after college. He’s a repeat guest on the show and always a pleasure to talk with.
Where to Find Bob
Twitter
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Company Site
Book
Book on College
Past Interview
Transcription below (May contain typos...):
[00:00:00]Bob: [00:00:01] So progress is the main thing that actually helps kids build confidence. And most people think is if I it's, so my thing is you can't build confidence without them failing. I, I don't, maybe you can, I don't know how to do it.
Mike: [00:00:19] But why does everyone want to avoid the failure?
Bob: [00:00:21] Just cause they don't want to be judged as a bad parent.
It's the focus is actually more on them than they are as the kid. Yeah. And it's that notion of at some point to, it's almost like a paradox, right? if I let my kids struggle, that actually means I'm a bad parent. And the fact is that the fact that you're letting your kids struggle means that you're actually a good parent. you got to fail and you got to fail fast,
Mike: [00:00:46] Struggling is essential to learning. We know this intuitively, but it's easy to forget with kids. And it's also a careful balance of letting our kids struggle while offering them just enough [00:01:00] guidance in the process. And this topic of struggling moments is what today's guest specializes in. Bob Mesta helps companies with innovation by identifying some of these moments. he's also a father of four and we talk about some of the ways that he's helped his kids find their career path after college and helping them through that struggling moment. So he's a repeat guest on the show and he's always a pleasure to talk with. Let's roll the interview with bob
today on the podcast we have Bob Mesta, who is a re repeat guest and he was on about three years ago, which we were chatting.
And, it's surprising that it's been three years already since we spoke Bob, but it's nice to have
Bob: [00:01:39] great to be back. Thanks for having me, Mike.
Mike: [00:01:42] you originally were on your, you're a father of four married for over 30 years.
Bob: [00:01:48] Yeah, I'm old. Yes.
Mike: [00:01:52] That's a huge
Bob: [00:01:52] accomplishment. And I think that's
Mike: [00:01:53] the reason I wanted to have you on is because I'm originally because of that and, that your success story in that regard, Bob [00:02:00] and I really look up to you in a lot of the work that you do with jobs to be done, but mostly to.
The fatherhood and staying successfully married for 30 years. So I think that's pretty awesome.
Bob: [00:02:10] it takes two. And, I would say if you've met my wife is a Saint. I think about it as I've done seven startups seven and she's still. We're still happy and we're, she's just very tolerant, but she's also stern, which is good.
Cause I'm all over the place. So we're I would call us opposites and we compliment each other well, and we don't try to change each other, which is, I think part of the key is that we're there to help each other be better versions of ourselves. So how have you, I'm sorry.
Mike: [00:02:41] So tell me a little bit about that journey to get to that. It sounds like that's a mature, taking years of experience of trial and error to get to that point because
Bob: [00:02:49] I, or is that not the case? I don't think that's the case. I think the fact is that we were both, it's one of those things where I guess it's one of those, and maybe we just learned this when we were young, but it's like that [00:03:00] anybody who, and again, I'm going back more than 30 years, but.
my friends who dated or, when, whenever I dated somebody who was and tried to change them, it never worked out. yeah, like you had to accept people for who they were and it was about helping them be better versions of that. And it was that aspect of, no I'm going to, I'm going to make them better and it's no, they need to be better.
And so it's, it follows some of the underlying. Principals of jobs to be done, which is, you don't people make progress, you make your progress and I can help you make progress, but you make the progress, not me. And so it's that underlying principle and it's the same thing for kids, right?
Like at some point I gotta be able to empower my kids to make progress. I can't give my kids the answer or the solution. They have to figure it out and that requires struggling. And so I think the. to me, it's that combination of struggle and growth and all of that together. And so I think, me trying to want or wanting to change somebody is not, it's just not, it's not a useful concept to me.
[00:04:00] Mike: [00:03:59] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Bob: [00:04:01] I don't know if I really answered it, but that's that, it's just observation if you will. That's how we got
Mike: [00:04:05] there. Yeah. No, I think you definitely answered it, but you brought up the struggling moments for kids, which we hit on last time. and to me, that's a really fascinating topic because you, it seems to me that new parents want to remove any struggling moments from their kids, brand new parents.
And then you see the importance of that, but you don't necessarily know how to manufacture them if there's not naturally existing, struggling moments.
Bob: [00:04:30] and there's a, the thing, there's a hard part because we don't have that decision line of where's danger. Where is it actually dangerous?
And where is something that's just struggling? And so we because we don't have a clear line of which is which, and it's this could lead to these other things that we don't want them to lead to that. And it's one of those things where it's for me, I would say I struggled a ton as a kid being dyslexic and, going in through special ed and all these other places.
And you're just one of those things where it's like, how. like it formed who [00:05:00] I was. And and it enabled me to develop different skills than in some cases, other people. And it made me a better. And though, despite the fact that they tried to make me be like, but he also didn't turn out like everybody else.
And so I think the struggling moments are the things that shape us. And so in removing those, it doesn't, it's like blue ocean strategy. When you have a, when you have a business, it's let's just think about all the possibilities it's like, Yeah, I don't know what to do cause there's just too many options.
And so part of it is those struggling moments helps shape where we want to go and what we want to do. And in some cases what we don't want to do.
Mike: [00:05:37] Yeah. So it is it, one of the theories I have with that is having those early. Teaches valuable lessons that's harder to teach later in life, possibly kids.
And I'm curious to see, how have you seen that play out? your kids are now in college or graduated.
Bob: [00:05:55] I got one left in, man. I am almost right.
Mike: [00:05:58] so how has that played [00:06:00] out for you? that's been a
Bob: [00:06:01] so what's. Yeah. so being on the other side of kind of all this, one of the things that's interesting is As much as I wanted to help my kids let's say, get a job or go, you know what, when they graduated, whatever, they were all very independent.
They all got what I would say is the traditional shitty job out of college. And then at some point in time they realized like, okay, I don't want to do this. And that's great learning. So what are you going to do next? And so almost all of them have been able within a year to take what, the training they got, by the way all four are applied math majors.
wow. And I can give you some insight in how that came about, but the reality is that, they got a job and what they thought they wanted to do. And then they started to do that work. And they're like, no, I'm really more interested in this. And so what it is helping them shape by those struggling moments to say, what do you like to do?
What don't you like to do? What are you, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? And then how do we, how do you go find the next thing? And so I think. giving them the confidence and the ability to [00:07:00] acknowledge what they can do and move on. It's that confidence, I think, and to be honest, having struggling moments early, they're not afraid of them and they are, they're not, I'm worried about what to do.
It's more okay, I just got to take the time to figure out what I want to do. Yeah. I think that's how that plays out. and so for kids who have never had to really struggle. Like the it's like the first struggle you're going to give is yeah, we're going to put you in the world series, with bases loaded in two outs and Oh, by the way, not now let's teach you how to hit, okay, that's just not going to happen.
But it's like at some point in time, you're not always going to be there. And I think I said in the process before is I feel like I had three real main jobs to help my children, which was figure out what their passion would, help them figure what their passion was. Be respectful and contribute to society.
make, make decisions. Good decisions is in there and making good decisions. As part of the fact, they have to make some bad decisions to make good decisions.
Mike: [00:07:53] It's almost like you want to maximize. Yeah. You want to maximize those struggling moments, but you want to that partly the struggling moment is, are, is [00:08:00] inherently full of bad decisions, which is counterintuitive.
Bob: [00:08:03] and again, you don't want them to make a bad decision when they're in the danger realm. So part of this is how do you actually get them to have the ability to make decisions? and at some point, have them realize like when don't they have enough information to even make a decision, Not making a decision is a decision.
Mike: [00:08:18] Yeah.
Bob: [00:08:19] And so part of this is I think one of the things that I learned later, like when I was 25, 26 was to ask a very simple question, which was like, do I need to make this decision now for some reason, I always thought, if I'm thinking about it, I gotta make the decision.
It's you know what, if I wait a week, this and this'll happen, I might actually better if I don't make the decision right now,
Mike: [00:08:37] But it's,
Bob: [00:08:37] it's being very explicit about when and where and how to make those decisions. Tradeoffs.
Mike: [00:08:43] Yeah. And that's interesting specifically around higher education or jobs, right?
Because you're, you feel like you have to make decisions early sometimes, but you don't have the contextual knowledge even make that decision. And so you end up making a bad decision that sometimes is, not irreversible, but, [00:09:00] Can be a, a large, negative consequences. If you may make a bad decision, whether that's dead or whatever.
Bob: [00:09:04] I think you learn from it, but so for example, I wrote a book last year called choosing college because putting all through four kids through college was, I'll say, challenging at the least they all graduated on time. they're all doing well, but it was one of those things where helping them navigate it.
I realized that everybody was worried about where to go and not why to go. So we basically did a whole bunch of interviews around what causes people to say, today's the day I'm going to go back to college, go to college. and then based on how they frame, why they're going to college, how successful are they?
And we came back with five different jobs and one of the jobs is, to do what others expect of me. It's I don't really want to go, but I don't know where else to go. And I don't really want to go get a job and everybody thought I should go to college. I'll just go to college.
Success rate in that for people going into college with that mentality is like 22%.
Mike: [00:09:57] Wow.
Bob: [00:09:57] Okay. Versus somebody who's it's like a [00:10:00] time for me to step it up. It's this is what I want to do. This is where I want to be. It's so the notion of a gap year, like success rate, there's almost 79%.
It
Bob: [00:10:10] says that we're a gap year falls in why don't you go figure out what you're good at? What you're not good at? like we have to realize that we've been so pressured at the high schoolers around what to do and where to go to college, that we forgot to ask him, what do they want to do when they grow up?
And I'm like, I'm really good at math. We should be, you should be a scientist. You should be an engineer. You should be the UN and the approach that we ended up taking with them, with our kids, Julia. And I was this aspect of I don't want to know what you want to do. I actually want to know what you don't want to do.
Let's just eliminate. Stuff off the table. So instead of starting with a 360 degree, we just kinda said, all right, you don't want to do this. You don't want to do that. okay. And literally we ended up going towards math because. What we realized is like math and English, or like math and a minor in English, math, and a minor in [00:11:00] computer science, math, and a minor in engineering.
But math was the thing that literally there was all this data and nobody tell stories and that I could work in any industry anywhere in the world. I actually have this link between math and telling stories and figuring things out. And so for them, that's how they all ended up in math and they switched around, but they came back to math because it's like, I want to move to this city.
you can find a job in math. Like you don't find a math job. You find a job that includes math, that people will hire you because most people suck at math.
Mike: [00:11:37] Yeah.
Bob: [00:11:38] So it's, and, two of the four are, working remotely. They work for companies out of California. They're both, one's in data analytics, one's in cybersecurity and they love what they do.
They're both on the customer side. They both, one of them wants to be a product manager and they went and interviewed, four or five different product managers. And then they. Realized like they needed the customer side of the world to be a better [00:12:00] product manager as opposed to the technical side.
So they went to customer success for the last year or two years. So then they understand the customer side and they understand the technical side. Now that can be a better product manager.
Mike: [00:12:12] That's really smart. I like the idea of interviewing someone that has a position that you want even early, as early on as possible.
Yep. It's a good strategy.
Bob: [00:12:21] So yeah, so my oldest son, Marty, I basically said, like I said, what do you want to do is I think I want to be a product manager. I'm like, great. Let's let here, you're going to write a blog post. You're going to interview five people and you're going to ask them basically a clear set of questions.
How did you get to be a product manager? And just to hear their story. And the second is what three pieces of advice would you give me as a, as somebody who wants to be a product manager, if you could go back in time and redo it, what would you do differently? And how would you advise me? And that's how he was able to figure that out.
And so it's that little algorithm is the thing is like we're. So when anybody gets, I really don't like my job. I'm like, all right, what do you want to do is like [00:13:00] this. All right, let's go five people. As far as set up a blog post, you set up, write a blog and go interview. And they're able to figure it out.
Mike: [00:13:07] It seems so simple when you put it that way. But
Bob: [00:13:10] yeah, it's the thing is that, how do I say people don't think about how to do that stuff. They just think like, why want to be a product manager? So I'm going to go try it. And it's I, it's go build a guidance system for the missile.
I don't know anything about that. Let me go talk to people. Who've built guidance systems before. Now I can actually, and figure out what the real problems are. So to me, I've always had this notion of going, talking to people because of being dyslexic. And it's let me go talk to people because they actually will tell, help me shape what has to happen.
And I feel like lots of people don't want to talk to people cause they don't want people to know. They don't know, I don't know anything about this. It's yeah, that's right. You should like that. That's actually a proud moment to admit you don't know.
Mike: [00:13:49] Yeah. That's a powerful insight though, that people don't want to admit that they don't know which then becomes the hindrance to your understanding or your progress that
yeah.
Kids that lacks some confidence of [00:14:00] someone that's already been in the work.
Bob: [00:14:01] so think about this for a second. How do you cause confidence, what are the things that you do as a parent to help, or do you guys, as a kid, what causes you. To be confident.
Mike: [00:14:14] I would say number one, it's overcoming adversity, like trying, failing, and then saying, Hey, I tried, I failed.
And then I did something different and I worked harder. And I think like for me, with young kids, like you're reminding them of that. Hey, remember when you did this and then it didn't work the first time and then
Bob: [00:14:28] you, so the first there's three important components. There. One is, the fact is they actually have to struggle and not get something.
So if they're really good at math all the time, They're really not going to actually figure out like what to do cause they don't really struggle with it. So wherever they do struggle, it's the fact of one making them aware that they struggled to, that they actually can do something about it.
So there's a difference between complaining about the struggle and doing nothing. Right or complaining about it. So somebody else does something about it or them complaining about it and then deciding to [00:15:00] do something about it. And then three, the reality is you or somebody making them aware that they've made that progress.
So progress is the main thing that actually helps kids build confidence. And most people think is if I it's, so my thing is you can't build confidence without them failing. I, I don't, maybe you can, I don't know how to do it.
Mike: [00:15:25] But why does everyone want to avoid the failure?
Bob: [00:15:27] Just cause they don't want to be judged as a bad parent.
It's the focus is actually more on them than they are as the kid. Yeah. And it's that notion of at some point to, it's almost like a paradox, right? if I let my kids struggle, that actually means I'm a bad parent. And the fact is that the fact that you're letting your kids struggle means that you're actually a good parent.
Yeah, that's true paradox. And so it's just that it's, that to me is a very, interesting kind of dilemma where it's and again, I can only kind of state it from the [00:16:00] other side, looking back. I'm not sure I could have. Told you that moving forward, it was just more I'm not sure I really cared what other people thought that much.
And that's the interesting thing is
Mike: [00:16:10] with parenting. When you have multiple kids, you get this, but you don't, I get one shot at it. Like you're figuring it out. It's not like a job where you have multiple jobs and by the third job, you're like trying to figure it out. you have multiple stages,
Bob: [00:16:22] but it's
Mike: [00:16:23] interesting bringing back to your interview concept, it's like, why would you not go interview parents, that maybe have a success, and in some regard, or have the.
Have the family you want or have the values you want to, create in your household and go say, Hey, how did you get here? let me tell you, Mike. Yeah, we failed at this and we failed this and how you have to go about it. It's you want to take the same approach you talk about with your kids, with the job.
Bob: [00:16:46] Exactly. And I don't want to talk to people who just failed because the people who just failed in fear how to overcome it. It's the people who basically, and what I can almost always guarantee as somebody who has made it. Has failed a lot more than the people who [00:17:00] would just failed once or twice, but they have a different attitude about it.
Okay. So it's interesting. I'm writing another book right now and I called the five skills of an innovator and we talk there's this big thing in the innovation or in the entrepreneurial space. It's you got to fail and you got to fail fast, right? But you have to realize that for some reason, it's almost I feel like the academics have watched the animals in the zoo and said, look, they all failed.
Do you see that? They fail? And it's but most entrepreneurs don't. They don't think of it as failing when you actually interview them. They talk about, I learned this. Yeah, I couldn't make that work and they never used the word fail. They always use the word, like I, I couldn't make that work or that didn't make any sense.
Or so for the most part, the word failure only comes from the outsiders. And the reality is it's all about learning. And so my thing is I don't feel like we have one shot with our kids. I think we have, a million shots with our kids. And it's really about learning to be a parent and learning to be a kid.
And enabling yourself to figure out [00:18:00] what does pro the fighting progress and movement forward, as opposed to trying to define the ideal?
Mike: [00:18:06] Yeah.
Bob: [00:18:07] Okay. I dunno. I know that felt like a little bit of a ramble, so I'm not sure if it made any sense.
Mike: [00:18:11] It's a good ramble. I think rambles can be good.
They're not all bad. that's really interesting. You said the academics watching the innovators, in the zoo kind of labeling it. That's really fascinating.
Bob: [00:18:24] I think about it in that way. I have this kind of notion of like the Teddy Roosevelt wrote a. Wrote a speech or called about the man in the ring.
In the fact, this is there's a very different to be in the ring versus being an observer of somebody in the ring and like having done a bunch of startups, and when you start to talk to people, it's like, there's lots of people who have studied things, but they actually haven't done it. It's like you've studied to ride a bike, but you've never rode a bike.
And you don't realize Riding a bike is about balance and you're like, how does balance work? dynamic balance you pedaling and steering and balancing Like it, it [00:19:00] makes it feel like it's the most complicated, Holy crap, how in the world, like physics wise, it's amazing that you can ride a bike, but like when you get on the bike, it's like, yep, let's go.
But it might take you a little time and it takes you a way to synchronize up steering and peddling and balance. But the reality is it's not that complicated to ride a bike. But if I just observe a bike, I can write a thousand page book on riding a riding, a bike.
Mike: [00:19:27] Yeah,
Bob: [00:19:28] And so this is where, and again, this is my gift of dyslexia, which I would never wish upon any of my children.
But the fact is that probably the greatest gift I got is like I, instead of having to go study, I would go build right the way I say it these days is I'm 55 and I've been breaking things for 50 years. I've been fixing things for. 45 years, but I've been building things for 30 years. And so it's that notion of doing it and being, experimental and empirical about it, as opposed to theory, having a theory about I would always say, [00:20:00] I'm not smart enough to know what to do.
We yet I have to go do some things to learn what to do.
Mike: [00:20:06] Yeah. The learning what to do to me, I was just thinking about, equipping our kids for. The advancements in society and technology and all of that. and they're facing a very dynamic world that's changing more rapidly than maybe ours did probably more than yours too.
I don't know if that's a misnomer. I don't know if that's true, but we're teaching them to deal with adversity, but what would you say are some other things that maybe core principles too, besides the confidence thing to help them in this world?
Bob: [00:20:39] So I think that there, I would say, so one of the things I always talk about is context creates value.
if I say, do you like steak or do you like pizza? People go? I like both. I said, tell me about the last pizza situation. I got my kids where were running from place to place. Like I know they're going to eat it all. [00:21:00] Like they got to still do homework. I got to get into bed. Like we're going to grab pizza.
It's yeah. All right. If I put stake in that situation, it's yeah, stake. Now, state doesn't fit in that situation. And so I think as we start to teach our kids to be able to actually perceive, cause I think everybody's looking for an answer. Everybody's looking for the truth. Everybody's looking for the one way to do something.
And what I would always say is I don't actually think there's one way. I always think there's five or six ways. And so it's the context though, that actually helps me decide the best way for the moment and like the context I'm in today. And I could look back next week at today and go, I probably, if I would have known these other things, I could have done better, but the point is I didn't.
So how to actually assize the context of what they're doing, play things out and understand, there are no regrets just because you didn't have that information doesn't mean you made a bad decision.
Mike: [00:21:56] Yeah,
Bob: [00:21:57] And so to me, it's teaching our kids. Like it's moving [00:22:00] faster. it's moving fast.
Like our parents or our grandparents it's, everything's accelerating, but what's happening is that we're actually able to perceive things and make better decisions faster. And so part of it is helping them to know, when do we need to go to the grocery store? do we need to go when it's empty or do we need to go when it's half full to realize okay, we have to get this because by the time I really get there and get back, it's not, it will be like, how do we get them to see the context of things?
Not just the answer. Cause if it's just one answer, then every Saturday we go to the grocery store. we don't go every Saturday. Yeah. Sometimes we go on Sunday. Sometimes we go on Tuesday. Sometimes we go on Friday. And it's why does it change? And it's these are the things we're taking into account and why.
And so understanding causality and being able to see things through what I call time and space is very important for kids to realize like somehow I think school is trying to teach them that there's an answer. There's an aid to everything. And what I've learned is there's [00:23:00] never an a there's an a that somebody decided wasn't a.
And there's actually an a plus, but nobody's actually discovered it yet.
Mike: [00:23:09] alright. That a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.
Bob: [00:23:11] and and the other part to me is at some point in time, a B is good enough. Sometimes a D is good enough. Like I just, I don't need to cut the grass where every grass height is exactly the same height.
It's it's good enough. Yeah. So knowing where things are good enough is really important. I feel like we're emphasizing grades so much. Like I actually think kids being home and learning from home, I actually think they're learning more. Yeah, I, I haven't, the funniest part is I saw a kid, a school on one laptop, a laptop next to him playing a game and texting with his friends and realizing they're never going to learn anything by doing it that way.
And it's guess what? They're parallel processing. And to be honest, if they can pick it up and they can do it, they're actually building a skill that many people can't do. so don't just cause you can't do it doesn't mean they can't do it.
Mike: [00:23:58] Yeah. [00:24:00]
Bob: [00:24:00] So it will be very interesting at how we get back to school, because my belief is now we've introduced this whole world of virtual and that some, like some, I have the underlying philosophy that everybody learns in their own way, and there's not one way to learn, but there's what they call pedagogy.
There's one way to teach a best way to teach. And my belief is it's very hard to come up with that. If I have multiple learners in the room, And so when kids come back, it's gonna be like, I would rather take this class online and they're like, why? it's focused. It's a here. It's I, the audio port versus I want to take this class, I'd rather do face to face.
And it's going to be very interesting to see how all this mashes back to you.
Mike: [00:24:36] Yeah.
Bob: [00:24:37] Oh, I ain't going to be the way it was for sure.
Mike: [00:24:39] Yeah. I think it would be better though. like you're saying
Bob: [00:24:42] it'll be way better like this is the struggling moments here. Yeah. Just stupendous, like I know that it's, this is a bad it's, we're doing these for good reasons to basically make sure that people don't get sick and we say hello, but.
The struggling moment now causes us to innovate. I was showing you just before we started, I've literally reinvented my entire [00:25:00] business as well as my entire office where now I've got a product, like I got four or five cameras in this room. I've got all these different things.
And it's what are these things where now where, before I had to fly to France or Paris to work with a team, now I can work with a team, like in my, like three blocks from my house.
Mike: [00:25:16] Yeah. Amazing.
Bob: [00:25:18] That's
Mike: [00:25:18] awesome.
Bob: [00:25:19] and part of it is them being able to accept it.
Mike: [00:25:21] yeah. and the offering might actually be different like you were in relation to the class set up and how someone might prefer to take the class.
The experience that someone has with you might be better in some ways, because it's better for you if you're not have to travel that sort of thing, but there might be aspects of that are actually better, a better offering doing it that way. Maybe they can process it or differently or something like that.
Bob: [00:25:44] Yeah, I'm actually, I agree with that a lot. And it's one of those things where it's, everybody's what are we going to do? And my whole thing is what are we going to do? Which is same words, but very different meaning. And it's okay, how do we have fun? fun with us.
And so we're to be, as I expected my world to stop [00:26:00] between like February and September and, have a few things for the rest of the year. And to be honest, like it's just, it's almost the exact opposite of what happened. And I, I. What's interesting to me is most people who work in a system and then the system doesn't work anymore and they don't know what to do.
They don't know how to think outside the box, or they don't know how to reinvent. the budget said, we should spend this in the third quarter. It's but we don't have a, we don't can't do that. So what do we do? I don't know what we should do. And so it was like call Bob. So my business is actually way it's up more than I ever thought.
Mike: [00:26:33] That is awesome. No, I think that's great, but that's a great meta example of what you're talking about with struggling moments.
Bob: [00:26:39] Yep. And you have a network called
Mike: [00:26:41] demand side sales. One-on-one that's coming out and I want to chat on that a few minutes. and my question to you is.
You're talking about sales. How long have people have been talking about sales? What more new could there be to talk about sales Bob?
Bob: [00:26:55] Yeah. So here's the thing is this is the last thing in a million years at whatever [00:27:00] thought I would want to talk about. But when you talk to entrepreneurs and having been an entrepreneur, one of the things that came up, it says what do you struggle with the most in your business?
And most people will say sales. And they'll say the sales and marketing, or, finding prospects, finding leads, that kind of aspect. I'm like, okay. And then I was, almost 10 years ago I was sitting in Clay's office and we were talking and I said like, why are there no sales professors at Harvard?
He's that's a great question. I don't know. And so we dove into it and started to look into it and we start to realize that sales has been almost relegated since the mid eighties to an order take a role or mentality. And there's people out there that have like solution selling in there, but it's all seen as a trade or something you learn on the job.
There's no underlying thing. Theory you teach about sales at school because it's just sales. it's hottest, it's technique, it's an art kind of thing. And so you start to realize, you look at the top 25 business schools in 2010 in the NC, [00:28:00] how many business sales professors are there?
They're like three you're like, and the best part, if they're teaching you a negotiations, right? It's lawyers teaching you negotiations, not the salespeople teaching you. like the last thing you want to do is as a salesperson is learn negotiations from the lawyer. I'm like, Oh, kill me. the, so that's the first part.
I think the second part is. Like, how do we actually bring it back? And so the one conclusion that clay and I came to was there was no sales theory. And so what we, what I did is I took this innovation theory called jobs to be done that people don't buy products, but they hire them to make progress in their life and said what have we just taught people?
Like how people buy. And then from that you derive your sales process on it. And when you start to dive into the sales process is actually driven more by, in some cases, what I call the church of finance, which is we got to have, we have projections, we have this, we've got to actually get by the end of the third quarter, we should run a promotion so we can get the revenue and to do blah.
And you [00:29:00] start to realize that it's run all around the product and not the customer. And so they, yeah, spectrum was trying to say, how do I actually get some of this knowledge, at least the foundational knowledge for entrepreneurs and business people. And the last thing, the last reason why I really pulled it out was how many people actually sell, but don't know they're even selling.
Is a teacher selling the lesson to the student or is the teacher trying to help the kid make progress? is the, physical therapist actually selling the rehab protocol to the patient? Or is it, are they trying to help the patient make progress? And you start to realize okay, at some point everybody's selling something at some point, but selling is really what I call it, a supply side notion, how do we actually see the demand side and frame selling more as helping people make progress as opposed to pushing our product.
And so that's what I wrote the book about is ways in which to see. See the reality of a seat from the other side and see how people decide [00:30:00] and make the decision to say, today's the day I need a new mattress. Today's a day. I need a new CRM. Today's the day I need a new supplier and it's not random.
Everything is caused. And if we can see it from that side, we can actually sell better and help people make progress.
Mike: [00:30:17] Yeah, no, I think that's, I think it's a really important, Perspective to take on it because I think I've seen. Being in sales, myself and selling you say, people naturally say, you're just good at sales because of your personality.
And so it's this weird mix of, then you just have, you can talk to people. So you're good at sales or you get too academic on it. And you say, there's a strict process. You have to follow. And it's the state gate things. And you, these logic. stamps or whatever, and it's somewhere in the middle.
but you're saying now let's look at the other side too. And let's consider the progress. People are trying to make
Bob: [00:30:52] well. and what happens is we end up trying to design one process to fit everybody's situation. And the reality is like there's probably three or [00:31:00] four different reasons why people are buying not a hundred.
And if we actually understand the jobs, white people doing it, maybe we actually need three different processes, not one. Because it's do you like thick crust pizza or thin crust pizza? If I do a survey and do it all, I end up with medium crust pizza. Nobody likes it.
Mike: [00:31:16] Yeah.
Bob: [00:31:17] Yeah. And so we have this whole notion of one size fits all.
And because we have on what I call the supply side, we have an efficiency mentality. How do we do it as efficiently as possible? But we don't realize the trade offs that we make when we try to make things efficient and how ineffective they become as we make them more efficient.
Mike: [00:31:36] That's really interesting.
Bob: [00:31:39] so to me, it's really helping people see this other side. So like I grew up on the supply side, I'm an engineer, And everything. I build a product and they will come.
Mike: [00:31:47] Yeah.
Bob: [00:31:48] when you start to study this, you start to realize if there's no struggling moments and you build a product, nobody will buy it.
Mike: [00:31:54] Yeah.
Bob: [00:31:55] And there can be a struggling moment and no solution. And then at some point somebody comes [00:32:00] in and goes Oh my God, they reinvented the world. It's yeah. But like at some point in time they saw something. What we call non-consumption where people want to make progress, but they can't.
Mike: [00:32:08] Yeah.
So
Bob: [00:32:09] an example that has Paula blank, I've worked with, at SMHU. He literally said how many people want to go back to college, but can't, they can't get the time. They can't get the money. They have responsibilities. Like how do we actually help them go back to school when they can't come back to school?
And so we built an online program and it's 10, this is 10 years ago. And he had 500 online students at the time. And we went and interviewed like, what caused you to say, today's the day you're going to take classes in a school that's, 400 miles away. It's I had this happen.
I had that happen. Like at some point I now have responsibilities gone to school four times, but I never finished, but now I have it because I have children. I have to do these things. Great. Guess what? It turns out we have 200,000 people in the world who want to do that right now. He's he went from 500 to two.
He's the largest university in the world.
Mike: [00:32:58] Wow.
[00:33:00] Bob: [00:33:00] Wow. and so this is where, when you see the demand side, you start to realize what you can do now is X is minuscule to where there's actually demanded struggling moments. So struggling moments to me, if you haven't figured out it should be my middle name or something like that, where it's that's all I talk about is because I feel like the struggle is actually at the center of how we make progress.
Mike: [00:33:21] Yeah. I think that's a good way. That's a good phrase to wrap it up. Bob, I'm struggling moments messed up. So
Bob: [00:33:30] I don't know if I liked that, but that's all right. Just kidding. I don't know. that's that's good. the book comes out on the 22nd of September, and it's like it again, it's written for all those people who.
Like the way I start the book is something along the lines. Like the first time I had to sell it, I just felt icky like this pit in my stomach, Oh my God, everybody's a prospect. I got to talk to everybody about like when do I shut it off? it was just this whole aspect of it of push my product.
And I like the used car salesman. I'm like, it doesn't have to be this way. And now. [00:34:00] I'll say almost 25 years later, I realized, okay, you know what? I should at least share this perspective. And so I'm not sure it's new. lots of people have talked about the sales side of the world, but I don't feel like too many people have been talking about the buying side of the world.
So that's ultimately how this book is different.
Mike: [00:34:17] Yeah. thanks for being on Bob. It's always great chatting with you. Fatherhood's sales, struggling innovation. You got it. Thank you.
Bob: [00:34:25] Thanks for having me on man.
I had a lengthy chat with my buddy Kalen Jordan. We covered topics on marriage, homeschooling, to the pandemic. It was for his podcast but I wanted to share the audio with this channel as well. Enjoy!
Transcription below (May contain typo's...):
[00:00:00] Kalen: [00:00:00] Mike Sudyk in the building. Did I pronounce your last name
Mike: [00:00:04] correctly? Yeah, I did work with friends.
Kalen: [00:00:10] Hey man, it's great to get you here on the podcast. we've talked a lot about, fatherhood, you have a podcast two cent dad, which you've had some ridiculous level of guests on. and also just some really cool insights. And, we talk about homeschooling, you also homeschool. So a lot of interesting, and you also are like a recruiter.
You work for a company that does that builds teams. So it's like we have, there's so much to talk about. but, what, how do you introduce yourself?
Mike: [00:00:38] first of all, Kalen is a pleasure to be on your show, man. And I love everything you're doing. I love your consistency of just quality output, man.
You're like
Kalen: [00:00:47] output consistency of output, the quality you gotta caveat on that. that word,
Mike: [00:00:54] I didn't say that, you could say that again.
Kalen: [00:00:56] I can say that. I can say that. I can say that's kind of bias though, is [00:01:00] I have a bit of a bias for putting stuff out. And I think that it, it is what it is.
Like I have a buddy that focuses intensely on quality of his technical setup and, maybe it's not as consistent on putting stuff out. So it's an interesting balance to find,
Mike: [00:01:16] It's interesting. It made me think of, do you follow Matt D Smith? He does. Is he's a designer MDs. He goes by the Twitter handle MDs.
He's a guy at Atlanta.
Kalen: [00:01:25] I don't think so.
Mike: [00:01:26] So it's interesting.
Kalen: [00:01:27] I know a guy, I know a guy with a Twitter handle whale who I think his name is Matthew Smith.
Mike: [00:01:34] I'm going to, I'm going to open up right now,
Kalen: [00:01:36] but his Twitter handle is
Mike: [00:01:37] whale.
Kalen: [00:01:39] I don't think
Mike: [00:01:41] it's MDs,
Kalen: [00:01:42] but anyways, he
Mike: [00:01:43] did this, like he did this like video project where it was like him, like in a, like a dystopian future where it had, it was like, you're looking through the lens of a computer.
It's like annulling is analyzing his face and things are popping up and he did this. It was like an, it was like a time lapse. I took him [00:02:00] like an hour or two and it looked really. Cool. and this guy is super talented. and he's like a known designer, but I'm like, why is he doing this? this had to have taken so much time, yeah.
Like content marketing, whatever. Maybe it's good for him to put out, but it struck me Kaylin that I was like, he got good by doing stuff like this. And to speak to your like, consistent output. It's You just do that. Like he probably, he enjoys it, obviously. I think you enjoy it too.
I don't think it's torture for you. What, the content you put out, it's that's what he just does that. And he just gets better, yeah, just part of the process, And I was like, have I rationalized away doing something that probably would have gotten me better skills or whatever down the road of where I want to go, because I didn't think it was like higher ROI or something.
Kalen: [00:02:47] Yeah. I think I think it is, we were talking a little bit about Gary V and one of the things that Gary V talks about a lot is don't get blocked by why not have the perfect setup, the perfect camera, just start putting stuff [00:03:00] out. and he talks about that a lot. And then, and of course his quality has gotten up over the years quite a bit.
but yeah, that's definitely, I have a bias in that direction for better or worse. And then I'm also try to be. Conscious of improving quality as well, putting out content is tricky. I think for me really enjoying it is so much of the battle and I've definitely have times when I get burned down on it, I stopped doing it, and finding I T I think finding something you're genuinely interested in is the whole game on some level, like your podcast on fatherhood, I think is Cool on so many levels. And I think there's this real, I think there's this real gap in the world right now for fathers specifically. and particularly that intersection of people that are in business and at the same time, like if you're putting on your growth, hacker hat, Like doing a dad podcast, isn't going to make money necessarily.
[00:04:00] But you're doing it because you love it. Cause you care about it. And maybe there's a cool way to monetize that. Maybe you could sell beards like kits or like who knows?
Mike: [00:04:07] that doesn't even have a
Kalen: [00:04:08] beard that's as cool as yours, but like maybe there's a way to do that. And that would be great.
it'd be awesome to be able to give yourself this space too. 10 X, what you're doing there, but you just do it cause you love it. And I love that about it.
Mike: [00:04:22] there's a fine line. That's a good point. You bring up. So I would say it's as fine line between authenticity and actually work that you have to put into it.
it's it opens up the discussion around like following your passion, is that's like kind of BS advice, but there's some truth in it. And just content like blindly is not necessarily a good strategy either. There's like this careful balance there. And. I ha I started the two cent dad podcast, which you can find it to send out the number to send to ed.com.
Kalen: [00:04:53] there we go.
Mike: [00:04:54] I started, cause I just want to have these conversations. I was starting to run a business that had taken over the family business. [00:05:00] We build software teams or companies, and I think we had our second, we had our second at the time. So we had two kids that were under like, three and I'm like, I don't know how to do this.
And I don't what I don't know how to do was, I didn't know how out of balance my time, because I actually really cared about business and I wanted to spend time there. It wasn't like, I hated the man and it's Oh, I just I hate my job, but I want to spend all my time with the kids. no, I actually really like this and actually want to spend less time with my family here sometimes.
And that's not a good thing. But then there's some times I hate it and I want to spend time with my family. It's I don't know how to deal with this. And this is like a child, in the sense that you're like build this thing. And I'm like, I didn't see anything out there for that. I didn't see anything.
Anything was, it was one of two categories. One was stay at home dads, which is okay, that's fine. But that's just not me.
Kalen: [00:05:48] We could rent men. You could rent on that for a while.
Mike: [00:05:52] I had all day, man. it's or the other one was, it was all business stuff. There was nothing it's they just you can't talk about business without talking about your [00:06:00] personal life or your faith. If you have a family about your family. And so I'm like find anything I'm like, I just want this to exist in the world. And I was talking to my buddy Alan Branch, actually. I don't know if you know him.
Kalen: [00:06:09] Yeah.
I've talked to him months before. Yeah. He was
Mike: [00:06:13] the guy that encouraged me to just start the podcast. And I was like, I think about like a blog. I was like, I didn't really well podcasts wasn't on my radar. he's dude, just call these people up and just have a conversation hit record. And I was like, Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
He's just do it. He goes, go get five people. And he goes,
Kalen: [00:06:27] wow. He does so many cool things. He does so many. How many random, did you see his? Was it on YouTube? he did a full on, it was a TV show. It was produced by. Brilliant.
Mike: [00:06:40] Brilliant. And I want to copy it. it was, he basically had a film, your company, you want it to buy this house and rehab it.
It was like a aware home. He called it.
Kalen: [00:06:49] He's
Mike: [00:06:49] what if we turn this into a, like a show? And then he started I don't even know. I think he like filmed it and everything, and then he took it to Lowe's. I think it was Lowe's that's basically what [00:07:00] they basically just set a show down on their desk and was like, Hey, do you want to buy this?
And he said, it was so compelling to Lowe's. So I talked to him about this and he was like, it was so compelling to Lowe's because they didn't have to with the production company, all the timeline. They're like, yeah, he got a whole bunch of free stuff. He's he would like, all these companies would just Hey, we're sending you a table saw.
And I'm like, dude, you are like, I'm so jealous of you right now,
Kalen: [00:07:22] right here. Like you
Mike: [00:07:24] can't like you, can't
Kalen: [00:07:25] not Alan brand. It's impossible. It's physically impossible.
Mike: [00:07:31] so he encouraged me to do it. And he's I'll be one of your, I'll be your guests, like one of your guests. He was like the first episode, I think.
and so it's interesting. Cause then I would just call people. I didn't have an agenda. And I think that intensity that you're talking about, you're talking about some more
Kalen: [00:07:44] like.
Mike: [00:07:45] People realize that. And I think you think about like sales, you think about whatever. It's if you're trying to be something you're not people's BS, radars are like hyper tuned.
Kalen: [00:07:55] and even if you're being totally upfront, you're saying, Hey, listen, I'm a recruiter. [00:08:00] Have some great options for you. Those guys, Jason Calacanis DHA, sofrito. Those guys get pitched stuff all the time. What they don't get pitched is, Hey, let's just talk about fatherhood. I think that's what makes it such a unique pitch, because like you said, there is this let's call it 80% of dads or whatever the number is that have a job.
They are dedicated to their work. They probably struggle quite a bit. If we're being honest with. I don't want to spend time with my kids. It's easier for me to focus on work and I need to focus on work. I want to provide for my family. And I've spent so many hours doing that maybe I lost touch a little bit with.
And I think almost like in the entire world, there's People are trying to become more balanced in that way. and it is a, it's a real struggle, and I think that most days ads are somewhere in that spectrum and they're not the a hundred percent stay home, dad they're, and they're in this sort of messy middle, and I [00:09:00] think that's why it really speaks to something,
Mike: [00:09:02] Yeah, absolutely.
And then obviously COVID all that for, through everyone, into that, working remotely more and it made the middle in blended everything together, There was less distinction if you didn't really work from home or maybe you did on occasion, not only now, are you working from home full time?
You really can't go to these places. You probably would go to your kids are home all the time. It's like it exasperates that, The boundaries, maybe like I found myself, I just need to get out of here. I need to like, yeah. And it's which is interesting because if you don't have that level of self care, it can actually breed resentment.
Kalen: [00:09:37] You're just like,
Mike: [00:09:39] that's not a good thing. and I don't, I feel like I'm not saying I'm like really good at that. Or I don't, it's not like I have a lot of resentment or whatever, but I'm not good at self care sometimes. I'm not good at being like, I just need like an afternoon or something, or like a few hours to just go, even just go for a walk or something to get out of the house.
It's I'm not good at that. And then like it builds up and it's explodes, right? [00:10:00] Yeah.
Kalen: [00:10:00] Yeah. I hear yeah, no, but that's so important to a lot of people really can't be so transparent about these things. And I think that there's such a need for that, cause all of us. Living in the real world are not perfect ads and wish, like you always have some level of guilt of I'm not doing it.
I hope I'm not messing up my kids. I hope. and, those, yeah. especially for those of us that care about our kids. And I think that's, again, is that 80%, they really care, but you realize you're messing things up all the time. And, I feel like I'm spending.
Actually less time right now, I would say with my kids then at some points in the past. But the difference is when I am spending time with them, it's no phones. It's no distractions. It's. It's on zoned in. So probably throughout the day I have a, we have dinner, we have a couple hours in the evenings and then a little bit [00:11:00] interaction throughout the day throughout work.
we just, I just had lunch and I had, like a half hour, they were showing me some of the stuff they did and we were talking and stuff like that. And, So there's been times where I probably had more physical time with them because maybe we're spending three hours together watching TV or on my phone, on the couch.
And so I have a little bit less time in some way, but it's so much more focused and I feel so much better about it. And then we have a real good flow, like on Saturdays, we have always do something fun together, getting out into nature, that kind of thing and stuff like that. And, so yeah, sometimes it doesn't necessarily meet because here's the thing.
If I have to spend 24 hours with my kids, trying to be he somewhat sane and to pay some level of attention to them, it ain't gonna happen. I'm not, Like I'm not super dad. Like I'm not, and I'm okay. And I'm working to improve that and to look for ways to [00:12:00] get more time with them more quality time with them more projects together when we talk about homeschooling and things like that.
but it's, There are limits. that's
Mike: [00:12:10] not necessarily ideal either. Yeah. I'm not saying that you're saying that, but it's it's not like we should be striving for 24 seven, always interaction. they have to have boundaries too, Or not boundaries, but there needs to be time between those interactions for them to have life apart, and obviously it's different stages of life, but, It just speaks to the quality of that time and the engagement level, right?
Yeah. It's like the extremes are easy, but the, but in parenting, so either you can be super hover parent or you can be super absent parent. and the super hover parent thinks they're doing a good job, but you're actually smothering your child. And that's not good. So but it's easy to be an extreme.
It's easy to, it's hard to be somewhere in the middle. Like it's like the classic case is like teachable moments for your kids where. It's it's easy just to either tie their shoe or just to tell them, tie your shoe. I'm getting [00:13:00] the van, you better tie your shoe and just. Just come there, Or if you're like, Hey, let me teach you some techniques. I'm not gonna type for you, but let me be like, stand at your shoulder and show you what you're maybe doing wrong. that takes that might take like 10 minutes as opposed to 30 seconds to tie their shoe. Maybe that's a crappy example, but it's all the work is somewhere in that spectrum in the middle, right?
Yeah.
Kalen: [00:13:18] It's a perfect the example. I'll be honest. Like I was talking to my buddy today or yesterday and, I had this moment where, my youngest daughter or my middle daughter, she's five was a. She leaves the door, open the backyard, the back door to the backyard. And we have tons of flies in the house, all of a sudden this last week.
And it drives me crazy and I kinda got a little upset. I was like, I kinda raised my voice and, tell her to hurry up and not leave the door open. And I was like, I caught myself and I was like, ah, like that was the greatest thing, too. To get frustrated. and yes, like you said, like it, it was quick and easy to say, Hey, close the [00:14:00] door.
but would have been better to take a little minute to say, Hey, how can we get you to remember to close the door? You know what I mean?
Mike: [00:14:08] Yeah. And it's then you also have a moment there. I'm with you on this. This is, Yeah. without trashing my kids, I could go home.
It's you can either. there's also if you do react that way, which I find myself doing that multiple times, It's you can then go in and say, Hey, I'm sorry. I, I shouldn't have done that. And actually apologize and show them how to do that, where you can be like, I'm not gonna do that.
Like ramp down and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm going to just make sure that they remember to close the door or you just close the door for them, or something is like, is there's a middle ground there. And yeah.
Kalen: [00:14:46] Yeah. And it's, in the day to day in the little moments when you're rushed and and then the other thing yesterday is my wife was sick, so I was doing breakfast.
I was doing change the diaper. I was, stepping up in some respects to help [00:15:00] out more. But sometimes when you do that, when you push yourself, you just have a little bit less, patience for things that come up. And so it's I'd love to be that perfect dad that could do everything, take care of everybody and also have perfect patients.
But it's like in real life, there's, you always second guess how did I handle this interaction, that interaction. and so it's, yeah, it's, it's tricky. when you have life getting in the way and stuff like that. But the whole homeschooling thing is real interesting right now because in, it's exploding right.
Due to COVID and you've been in the game for longer than I have. I think. How long have you guys been homeschooling?
Mike: [00:15:41] Pretty much since the beginning. And I should say we, mostly if which I'm sure you're in the same boat,
it's totally fascinating. I think, I think the silver lining for COVID is people waking up a little bit more to their being more engaged with their children in general, [00:16:00] and also questioning the education process and the kind of the, just the normal path, which is like public education.
They're just questioning that. and I don't mean to say that. That's all bad and there's no redeeming value in public education. I listened. I went, I was homeschooled first through fourth grade, then went to public school, had a great experience. but it's interesting to me, Kaylin, how it's It's almost like the remote work thing. if you'd normally worked in the office and you're also now working from home and you didn't have any sort of systems for doing actually remote work, you're not really doing good remote work. You're just doing work from home. It's the same thing as if you go to, if your kids were all suddenly having to like, do remote schooling for public schooling, like that's not really, I was calling.
but, But
Kalen: [00:16:43] it's everybody's getting a, like a crash course in. And there's such a learning curve. I don't know about you guys, but we've been doing it now for five, six years. And it was super hard in the beginning, the first year or two. there's a lot of learning, figuring out your curriculum, [00:17:00] figuring out am I crazy?
Is this totally nuts? Especially my wife and I, yeah. A hundred percent. Am I ruining my kids and stuff like that. So all of that learning curve, like. Nope. Like people doing it now, it's so accelerated and they're not even choosing to do it. It's just I'll do this. Cause I have to, but the second I don't have to do this.
I'm done, so it's very different.
Mike: [00:17:26] In its essence, the way that we think about homeschooling. And I think you probably do too, that it doesn't matter actually, where your kids go to school. it's an ownership of your child's education that you're not advocating to someone else. And That you can do that. If your kid attends a public school or a private school, or you do homeschooling, but it it changes your thinking on like I'm responsible for my child education. And so I'm going to, not only, I'm going to choose the best, [00:18:00] maybe main education route, but I'm going to, I'm going to seize any sort of teachable moment.
I'm gonna, I'm going to give them experiences such that it's going to round out there. worldview and all of this stuff. And it's and maybe you say, Hey, I assessed that. I'm probably not, able bodied enough to do traditional homeschooling. So I'm going to, I'm going to seek out these alternative methods.
I'm going to send them to a public school, but I'm going to do these things to supplement that or whatever. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. I think that's the exciting thing that I kinda see with COBIT it's It's people's like eyes opening up where it's like the traditional path is yeah. Once the kid hits like five, six years old, they're going to like preschool K you know, kindergarten and on up.
It's that's just, you just ship your kid off to school and you see them after work. And that's just how it was. And it's yeah, that's really advocating the role where it's you were like, First there was chaos because, you had to do things from home and then you're like, wait a second.
Like maybe they shouldn't just do worksheets all day. And when they're in first grade, and the metric could be that they got 30 worksheets done. Like maybe that's not the bad weight. [00:19:00] I've been doing it
Kalen: [00:19:01] at most school. Okay.
Mike: [00:19:02] what should they be doing? So then let's like, people are like Googling, okay, what should we be doing?
Or what are some of the activities? Or they're just like, Where they're just like taking them to the store. guess maybe not Colby, not taking him to store, but it's you're just doing life with them and you're using that to teach them, And it's yeah. Yeah. That's really cool.
Kalen: [00:19:17] Yeah. And I think there was probably a time in the U S and in other countries that made that time may be now where the educational system was so strong and the alignment of values. evenly distributed, everybody was on the same page where you really could do that. You could just send them to school outsource that, not worry about it.
And there's something very simple and nice about not having to worry about that, but just due to, the age we live in, it's just not the case. No matter, like you said, no matter what situation you're in public, private homeschool, whatever you have to take an active role in. It's [00:20:00] really, it's, education is a subset of parenting.
And a lot of times there's this mindset of you're the parent where the teacher don't, don't step on our toes. and to have that shift in thinking, I think like you're saying is huge. It's the biggest shift, by far, that you can have in the context of, education, your kids education and.
Mike: [00:20:21] why do you think you're saying the values you think shifted or, what changed? besides just having Rose colored glasses for what was right in the fast now that we're like getting to be an old guys here, but it's like, what shifted, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the active thoughts on that.
But I want to hear it.
Kalen: [00:20:37] I try to stay out of things that are. Political adjacent, you can get yourself,
Mike: [00:20:43] can we can't get, we can't get the podcast canceled here.
Kalen: [00:20:46] yeah. I,
Mike: [00:20:46] you want Kayla?
Kalen: [00:20:47] Yeah.
Mike: [00:20:49] You edit out me.
Kalen: [00:20:50] Yeah. I don't really do any editing, but, but, Yeah.
I, if you are, a little bit more conservative leaning, there's a lot of things that are not going to be real, super [00:21:00] aligned with your thinking, leave it at that. and even just, outside of that, is just the, I'll give you an example. Like I went to public school, it was mostly fine.
there was, like I was, like when I started going to high school, I had a group of friends and they had some friends and it was like a hazing thing. Like all my friends are like Korean and so their older friends were like, we're going to beat you guys up. So they were going to beat us up.
But I was like, terrified about that. Then I got into a couple of fights in high school. There was a shooting. when I was in junior high junior grade or whatever, my wife's high school was about 10 times worse than mine with gang activity and things like that. And some people say, it's socialized that's life.
That's you want your kids to, I understand the real world. And on the one hand, I do want my kids to go through challenges. If they have. This perfect life. And they've never had anybody be mean to them before. that's part of life. You gotta learn how to deal with that. But that [00:22:00] doesn't mean that every negative situation, just because it's public school is automatically healthy socialization.
There can be environments that I saw somebody use the phrase. Psychologically abusive. ma there can be environments that are safe, ecologically abusive, or physically abusive. And just because it's public school, it's socialization doesn't mean that it's a, okay. Like you want your kids to have challenges.
you want them to learn to socialize in like when you homeschool, you have to figure that out yourself, you have to you're out a, what are we going to get them into? Our kids are in dance or in music, they're in all sorts of stuff. but you have to create that yourself. it's almost like.
With this whole kind of creator economy, like many people are becoming creators of content or making a product or selling something. And it's as a parent, you have to create the environment that your [00:23:00] kids it's like a choose your own adventure. it's like there, isn't just this one path that works for everybody.
It's you gotta create all that. And then of course the challenge is, am I being. To micromanage. Am I micromanaging too much? Am I being too controlling? are we it's a tricky and everybody has their own philosophy on it. I have daughters I'm super over-protective, the idea of anybody doing anything that would hurt my daughters, it's I would, I'd go berserk
Mike: [00:23:27] I'm with you on that, man.
Amen. I would be, yeah.
Kalen: [00:23:31] We'd have some problems
Mike: [00:23:35] we have some
Kalen: [00:23:36] that we'd have some problems, but what are your thoughts on that?
Mike: [00:23:41] I like what you said about like you're the creator trend and you're actually creating the education experience for your kids, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
you hit on a lot though, so I'm trying to figure out what to respond to. The whole socialization is a misnomer at it with homeschooling [00:24:00] it's like people obviously have no. When someone says that they actually have no idea. that's a, they have no idea when you're like, Oh, it's okay, we're not almond, but that's cool.
anyways, I'm just like, I don't even want to talk to someone like that,
Kalen: [00:24:12] by the way. I think the Amish might be the one group of people that have it figured out,
Mike: [00:24:16] there's some truth there. Yeah. I'll give you that. I'll give you
Kalen: [00:24:18] that.
Mike: [00:24:21] so there's the socialization piece then?
It's okay, so you're just saying your socialization is just throwing your. Throwing your kid into a group of unknown people that are just going to shape them and mold them. That sounds like a good idea. Yeah. Good one. Look with that. but socialization, actually, when you think about that, it's then you have to ask the question, what is society and does it match my values?
And that's what you were saying. I think earlier you're saying if you're more concerned, Okay. Then you have to look at what is the environment like that, public schools are, shaping and that's a whole nother discussion. I don't actually have a lot of Intel on that because my kids are homeschooled.
So I don't know what the current state of that is. I know that when I went to school, I'm 34. So when I was in high school, it was like, [00:25:00] it wasn't that way. there wasn't some of the stuff that's going on now, but the interesting thing, that you were bringing up about, creating your own education, and then you said, how overbearing do you be or how involved?
And that ties right in with the challenges. And I think something I'm thinking about right now is like, most of my oldest is nine. And I think that's similar to how your oldest is.
Kalen: [00:25:20] She'll be 11 in about a week.
Mike: [00:25:23] Yeah. so pretty close. And
Kalen: [00:25:24] It
Mike: [00:25:25] as they get kinda like to that age, this is my thought, I'm not an expert, but it's you want them to struggle with some things you want them to start to have to go through sorts of like rites of passage.
And my oldest is a boy. So I think there's a little bit more tendency to like, Hey, I want him to toughen up a little bit.
Kalen: [00:25:39] But it's It's so good,
Mike: [00:25:40] but that's hard. That's hard. And there's things that are built into the traditional schooling system. Like sports, like some level of hazing that's actually okay.
Kalen: [00:25:49] it's kinda
Mike: [00:25:50] it kinda toughens you up a little bit, so it's you don't want to fully eliminate that. And it's
Kalen: [00:25:54] I want my, I got into fights when I was a kid. I kinda I kinda want my son to go [00:26:00] through that on some level. You know what I mean? To have that
Mike: [00:26:03] you know about your stuff.
You never been in a fight. I don't want to die with it. Scars,
is that what a man looks like? Calvin Klein. Quote, some fight club.
Kalen: [00:26:11] Yeah, exactly. I sounded like a quote. Yeah, exactly. But what I hear you saying, it's like you want them to go through some challenges,
Mike: [00:26:21] so I don't have a good answer for that.
but I think what I see and I observe in society is that. There's a tendency to soften things up, right? It's you don't want anyone to be offended. You don't want anyone to, you feel a microaggression, whatever the heck that is. I don't know. It's like you don't want any sort of pain or anyone to feel ostracized or excluded.
Are there extremes of that? Yes. Is, are there things like racism? Yes. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying like, there's a thank you. If you go overboard with that, you [00:27:00] remove, you have to just be cognizant of what is what baby is being well, not with that bath water, so to speak. And, it just interesting.
I don't know what that is. And so okay. Sports, you can recreate that with homeschooling. you can do some other things. But I'm just trying to be cognizant of that because I think it's a really important developmental, aspect of growing up. And the key thing is like, How do you respond when people that don't like you do things to you?
Like, how do you, how does your character get built around that? And then how do you respond when something, you pour your hard work and your soul and your sweat into, and it doesn't work out, like, how are you gonna respond? Those are essential life skills. You have to learn to be successful.
And it's like, how do you manufacture that? Almost not me. Gotcha. But like, how do you put your kids in situations like that?
Kalen: [00:27:44] yeah. and we had, I think about a scenario we had, I had a back a while back where, I would take my daughter to the park a lot. she's yeah. Like the most social person.
And that's one of the things that's like you said, I worry a little bit. Am I screwing up my kid, but I see how social [00:28:00] she is in. every different scenario. So we go to the park a lot, she'd meet people. And there were situations where there was people who I thought there was a good relationship there, but then things would start to happen.
And there was a, it's kids stuff. It's going to the park and her not wanting to play with her. Which sounds very childish. It is childish. But we had, there was a period of months where I would take my daughter home crying. almost every time we went to the park because of this one particular thing.
And, that's, it's a silly thing on one level, but there was some real relational pain and relational struggle there and, rejection dealing with rejection and stuff like that. And we had to talk her through it and stuff. And so it was a scenario where, on a micro scale at a young age where there was some real relational struggle she was working through, but we were working with her.
Through that somewhat closely and talking through that and, [00:29:00] she was, I don't know, six or something like that. and my wife, continues to talk with her a lot about everything that she goes through, but I think that's a little bit of my mental model for it is that things are going to come up.
And you just, hopefully you're close to your kids, right?
Mike: [00:29:17] yeah.
Kalen: [00:29:18] it's there's the whole hover thing, right? Anytime you're spending too much time with your kids, it can be called you're hovering your helicopter. But I think that on another level, we want to be close to our kids.
And I don't think that maybe, I don't know if that's necessary really, common in our society to be close, to have a close relationship, to have a close dialogue, to really, have a lot of a high level of trust and communication. I think for me, that's the goal, I w
Mike: [00:29:47] so I would agree with that, but I would disagree on some level to say, you also don't want to just be their friend.
Like you want to be their friend, but you start to be their parent, And I think that's what I think what I heard you say, though, is it sounds like you guys, you took a good path. You took the [00:30:00] middle road, right? You didn't take an extreme, so one extreme could be like, you don't go back to that park anymore, And you remove her from that adversity. That could be one extreme or one extreme could be like, you just got to get over it. whatever your daughter's name is he's got to get over it. And then you don't say anything, you don't help her process it. And it's so it's you gotta put in the work to talk her through it and be like, I don't know what you said, but it's like this is this is, these challenges are going to come in life.
There's some people that are just mean, and like this is gonna happen or I'm sure you it's you can like, help her sort that out. Cause it's she's like, why is this person meeting me? am I a bad person? Or. did I do something wrong or am I less than valuable or something?
I don't know. She can have all these thoughts and she can process them in a vacuum or you can help her process them, and help her mature. So it's again, it's that middle road? It's you gotta put in the work. Yeah. But it's not, it's not easy. It's and as a dad, you're like, Dude.
I don't know what to say. I never had a six year old get bullied before. I don't remember when I was six. I don't know. Like it's kinda
Kalen: [00:30:58] and then you're kinda, you're [00:31:00] kinda, you're yeah. Analyzing the situation and you're trying to figure out, is this just a regular disagreement argument or is this a scenario where this person doesn't have the best intention for my daughter?
It doesn't really care about. My daughter, And you're trying to, and you don't know for sure. And as they get older, you have less and less. I'm not at the park. you have less and less direct contact in some way, ways and stuff. And so you gotta read between the lines and try to figure it out.
like at the end of the day, like healthy relationships will have challenges. And you've got to work through those challenges, But is it a healthy relationship or an unhealthy, if it's an unhealthy relationship you want to encourage them, probably get out of it, A healthy relationship with challenges.
You wanna encourage them to work through it. and so I, Those are the things that are hard to know, for sure.
Mike: [00:31:53] And to realize what you said, healthy relationships have challenges. That's actually something I had to learn in my [00:32:00] marriage. and I'm going to take us on a little tangent here.
So my parents, I grew up in a great home. My parents are awesome, but one thing they didn't do is they didn't resolve conflict in front of us. So my parents, it's not like they fought all the time, but disagreement, we might see one of them raise their voice and maybe they'd get into something, but they would resolve the conflict, apart from the kids.
And maybe that was by nature of they'd be like, go play downstairs, like we're arguing or something, or maybe they're resolved in the bedroom. And I didn't want to see that anyway, but but like it's a. It's interesting that had an effect on me because by nature, I'm a positive conflict avoidance it's person by my personality.
Yeah. And so I wouldn't want to conf have conflict in our marriage, so you'd avoid it cause you'd be like, Oh, conflict is a sign that our marriage isn't doing well. So this is like in the first year or two of our marriage was like, I had to learn how to fight and learn how to resolve things.
And so it's interesting when you talk about like with kids, it's there's [00:33:00] more caught than taught is the term, right? It's so it's there's one aspect of what you described with your daughter. Where it's you actively are involved in talking her through that, but there's a whole nother dynamic where she's watching you and your wife, like
Kalen: [00:33:15] she's
Mike: [00:33:15] seeing how you guys treat each other, right?
Yeah. Okay. if mom is treating dad poorly and the dad doesn't say anything, or I never see her apologize and I never see her say, I was really stressed and I'm really sorry. And then you to be like, I forgive you or whatever, That speaks volumes. and so it's just interesting to think about, and we're not perfect, right?
listen, and my wife and I have fun in front of our kids multiple times, it's and I'm not at all, but it's like being aware of that is I think one of the most important things to be like, really, and that goes when it goes like a hierarchy of like where you should prioritize, You should work on your marriage because that, and loving your wife, because that's a, that's going to flow into everything, That's
Kalen: [00:33:57] yeah.
Mike: [00:33:58] it displays, so many lessons [00:34:00] to your kids.
Kalen: [00:34:01] Yeah, it does. And I think that, that's something I've been thinking about a lot in the last several months in particular.
And, I think that we can really, we can be quick to downplay that. if we are having some conflict, it's as long as we don't, yell at each other in front of the kids, as long as we don't it, but kids see everything they see and they feel all of that tension.
So if you're not affectionate, loving, having fun, enjoying each other, anything short of that, Even if you're not fighting, but anything short of that is having downstream effects on your kids, and I'm really.
Mike: [00:34:45] It comes full circle toward talking about content. You're kidding. Being authentic, but then being diligent and doing the work,
Kalen: [00:34:51] it's
Mike: [00:34:51] you need to be authentic in front of your kids.
I need to show as much passion and love for my wife in the, when I'm feeling positive about her. And as much as I [00:35:00] do when I'm feeling negative, if I'm getting like real mad and I'm raising my voice, I better be doing the same thing when I'm like actively trying to resolve the conflict and make up and apologize.
But I better do the work because if I don't do the work of that
Kalen: [00:35:12] aspect of it,
Mike: [00:35:13] then it's not going to be good. Then I'm just flying off the handle every time. Yeah. But you have to be authentic in that, cause you're right. You're kid you're so right. yeah, your
Kalen: [00:35:22] kids,
Mike: [00:35:23] they pick up on everything, man.
and your tone is going to change to them. If you're mad, if you're fighting with your wife or whatever, and if you're stressed out at work or whatever, like they know that,
Kalen: [00:35:32] yeah, they do. And then they need to, in an ideal world you would work all your stuff out.
In the other room in the bedroom somewhere else. And then you'd be perfect in front of your kids and your family, but in the real world, there are going to be days where you're at a bad mood where you're having some level of. conflict, and they're going to see how you work it out, how you deal with it, how you negotiate, [00:36:00] situations with your spouse.
And it's not always going to be pretty. It's not always going to be perfect. but they're gonna, they're gonna learn from that, and I just think, man, I hope I'm setting a good example. for them, because they're going to have all the same stuff, like everybody. Go, it's this circle of life.
Like they're going to be parents one day, they're going to have those annoying situations. They're going to have, they're going to feel guilty that maybe they're messing up their kids, and all that stuff, cycles and repeats,
Mike: [00:36:30] And it's interesting. Like the, I was just thinking It's a weird balance between focusing on your kids and not focusing on your kids, when you talk about modeling things.
So if your kids are the center of your life, that's not a healthy thing because then they have a focus always on themselves. And I was thinking about like, When it comes to like physical fitness, like I've been trying to incorporate my kids and like my workout routine. I think that hashtag kid iron, we were using you and I were posting some videos
Kalen: [00:36:56] and views on that video, man.
Yeah.
[00:37:00] Mike: [00:36:59] It took off. I tagged a guy called Zach homo in India, runs a gym over there. But so that was, I'm just riding on the coattails of like really Twitter, famous people. But,
Kalen: [00:37:08] it's
Mike: [00:37:08] I'll just be like, Hey, I want to go for a run and I'll just go, I'll say, Hey, we're going for a run. And my youngest two, I'm pushing a jogging stroller.
The older two are riding their bikes. And it's just this isn't me saying,
Kalen: [00:37:17] let's chat
Mike: [00:37:18] the whole way. And I'm this great dad. I'm going to be like catering to my kids. It's no, I make a commitment to myself. I want to be more physically fit. I'm involving the kids. It wasn't really even an option.
I'm like, we're going for a run. And sometimes I'll just I don't want to go for it. I'm like, no, we're going, it's gonna take 20 minutes and you can ride your bike. Come on. it's yeah, But he's seeing that as a priority, right? It's Hey, I'm self focused on fitness and we're going to be focused on fitness as a family.
but it's just modeling it. It's like this isn't about him. This isn't about, we're not going to go on the road that he wants to go on. We're not going to go to the, they want to go to the park sometimes. And we go to the park sometimes, but it's no, we're just going to run, we're doing this.
And it's I think in the same way with marriage, one of the things that's interesting is if you're just fo people say. Don't try to work on your marriage, like work on yourself, or from a spiritual perspective, it's like [00:38:00] work on your
Kalen: [00:38:00] that's my whole mantra. that's my whole thing.
Mike: [00:38:04] It's crazy. And it's maybe there's something as it relates to kids. It's If you're focused on your kid, I just thought of this when you were talking, it was like, if you're focused on your kids all the time, that's actually can be a negative. Cause you're like hyper hovering and you're like assessing everything and you're
Kalen: [00:38:19] like this about everything.
Yeah.
Mike: [00:38:20] You're anxious. And it's To where, whereas if one step above your kids is like your wife. Yeah. You're like, I'm gonna focus on loving my wife. And I know that there's gonna be a lot of downstream effects from that. And I'm gonna focus on like health and I'm gonna focus on, I'm going to focus on, serving people in the community maybe, or your faith, you say we want to pray or read the Bible more or something.
It's That's going to have all these downstream effects. They're going to see that I'm interested in these things. I'm passionate about these things and they're going to learn, and then they're going to be naturally inquisitive, right? that's the other thing, like when it comes to education to loop that in is like, Kids are so naturally curious,
Kalen: [00:38:53] yes.
You just got to,
Mike: [00:38:56] you surround them with resources and like just fuel [00:39:00] their fire. Yeah. If you're not serious and you're not learning, guess what? They're probably not going to care about learning either there, if you just
Kalen: [00:39:08] watch TV all day or just
Mike: [00:39:10] don't do anything.
Kalen: [00:39:11] If you're just like, if you're just miserable and stressed out and then you see your kids and you're like, do your homework and duh, that's not going to be inspiring for them.
my daughter has been, drawing a lot, she's always loved to draw and she's started to do it on her iPad. And I was, I noticed, I was like, dude, she's drawing every single day in her, like free time, And for a long time, I just Oh, that's really cute. That's so cute. And you know how it is as a parent, like sometimes the drawings are, yeah, they're beautiful to you.
Cause you're the dad, but they're not. Yeah. when I was like, dude hurt your lungs are getting better and better. And then at one point I was like, dude, maybe she is going to become an illustrator or something like that. And I'm always thinking of, it's an interesting tension because my wife is very into a classical homeschooling model, [00:40:00] reading the classics, penmanship, writing, read like non-technology and I'm very much technology and stuff.
So I'm always thinking, okay, Man, could she become an illustrator? Like how can it, I started teaching her to type she's up to 16 words a minute and stuff like that. And, I'm always wanting to push in that direction and we have this natural tension, which I think is good because I don't want her to just be purely technology.
And we don't, we don't let her use it phone were planning not to let her use social media for a long time. but trying to find that, that balance and trying to. cause like for example, I'm a programmer. I would love for her to want to be a programmer. And I had tried to get her into programming and there's some really cool, materials for kids to learn to program visually and stuff like that.
But it just didn't, it didn't take off it didn't it wasn't there. And then now I'm seeing this illustration thing. I'm like, man, I'm like, this is great. So then I'm encouraging that I want to get her a [00:41:00] nice Apple pencil and some of the things that will help her down that path. but yeah, so I've been thinking a lot about that like seeing the talent, seeing the curiosities and then trying to, maybe push them a little bit in a direction they're already going in, is, is such a big part of it,
Mike: [00:41:18] Yeah. And in order to do that, you have to be very like observant of what they're interested in, what are they what's catching on? And then you feed that fire, throw a little kindling on it, like to get it going up. And it's okay, I want to equip her. And I'm going to invest in this and we're going to get her, an Apple pencil or whatever and whatever that is.
you're just stoking that natural fire that's there. And it's interesting. You say like my wife and I are the same, like she's more classical. I'm more like, yeah. As technology and I, I want my son to like, learn how to code and he's like interested in it, but it's there is something to be said for that's the world they're going to grow up in.
Like you can't, you have to be able to. talk about socialization or wherever, but it's you also have to know how to use the tools that are exist. And you gotta be aware of them at least enough to [00:42:00] use them to what accomplish what you want to accomplish.
Kalen: [00:42:02] Yeah. One of the huge things I think about a lot is I want to teach my kids like.
When you look at social media, there's obviously a lot of negatives, especially you think about teenagers just being absorbed in tick-tock or whatever. And there's a lot of negatives, but I think that there's a lot of real positives to knowing how to effectively build relationships online. Like I heard, I saw the phrase, digital relationship building.
And I was like, wow. I was like, that's something that I do a lot of and I didn't have, that's why we're
Mike: [00:42:37] talking. That's why we're talking.
Kalen: [00:42:38] That's why we're talking about Twitter, man. Yeah. That's something that's something that you do an amazing job of, and you've built relationships with some of the real high level people in tech and on your podcast.
And I'm sure you're also. They're really good at sales. I think sales is a really interesting job as well. and so I think a lot about that. Like I want to, [00:43:00] obviously it's great to have local relationships to be involved in whatever activities you're involved in, but I think the skill of digitally building relationships is so important and it's something that I want to teach them how to do, but it's especially at this age, I'm not going to just be like, okay, here's Twitter have fun.
because there's a lot of, there's a lot of garbage on the internet, So finding that balance is going to be a little tricky.
Mike: [00:43:29] that's, you don't give, you wouldn't give your daughter like a machine gun, You might say, I give her a BB gun, and I'll watch her use it for a little while.
So she doesn't shoot her sister's eye out or something, but yeah. It's it could still be a tool if you need to learn how to like hunt or something. It's yeah, these are how to use it. You can get them out of here.
Kalen: [00:43:47] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's the internet is. such a double edged sword is such a powerful tool.
but it's also a, it's a tool that can be used for positive or negative. There's all these studies [00:44:00] on increases in depression among, kids. And I think specifically girls, because of all of the comparison, all of that stuff. And it's that stuff is real. that's not, yeah.
A small thing, that's and that's us
Mike: [00:44:13] too. Katelyn don't you I'd say it's just my girls.
Kalen: [00:44:15] it's I see what you're doing. I'm like,
Mike: [00:44:16] Oh, Caitlin's got some, it's got the sweet podcast set up. wow. His Mike looks cooler
Kalen: [00:44:21] than mine. like it's a reality.
Mike: [00:44:23] You can use that though. And you can be like, okay, am I getting caught up in that?
Or am I saying, how do I, if I really have an objective to like, increase the quality of my audio, I'll look at what people are doing and I'll mimic that, but I won't get down that road of I'm going to be like, watch 100 them or whatever. So it's
Kalen: [00:44:40] yeah. And it a hundred percent affects us as third I'm 39 years, almost 40 year olds, a hundred percent.
affects us. And so we had a whole life that we grew up without all of this technology. So how much more so does it affect somebody who's 14 [00:45:00] doesn't know anything else? The brain isn't even fully developed, It's going to be so much more intense, but you're right. At the end of the day, we have to figure out how to grapple with those.
with the pros of being able to be inspired by somebody and to want to improve yourself and the cons of sometimes just being filled with jealousy and anxiety and things like that to where it's not helping you. And you have to you have to know yourself and you have to be able to, like there are situations where there's somebody who I'm constantly.
feeling jealous of or whatever, and it just. It doesn't help me. It doesn't help me at all. it's not something, whereas I always tell you how impressed I am about your podcast guests. Yeah. And like that to me is like an iron sharpening iron, like it's inspiring to me. So I think that you just said, you got to know yourself, you've got to know which things inspire you and which things don't.
For whatever reason and just, kinda [00:46:00] curate this stuff that you're following, you got to curate your feed, to make it work for you at the end of the day. Yeah.
Mike: [00:46:06] and I'm learning that I definitely have not learned that. I would say I get sucked into that trap often. And I think it's interesting because I feel like you and I are the generation where we We grew up as this stuff was coming out is just after, I didn't have Facebook in high school or really even like college. It was like, after that, but you're young enough where you adopted it cause you're like a early tech adopter. So it's we saw that and then we could figure it out.
And now stuff is coming out of the negative effects of it to whereas like kids that grew up, maybe just after us, it's They didn't know all the negative effects. And they're just growing up with all of this technology and it's okay, now that we understand it's our, we need it.
We need to write the training manual or the user's manual for some of this stuff
Kalen: [00:46:50] right.
Mike: [00:46:51] Of how to avoid the pitfalls. And it's interesting. It's all goes back to balance and maybe that's too cliche, but [00:47:00] it's it's always in the middle, So the guy that I look up to that I get envious of is a guy by the name of him, Nathan Berry, which I know, you know who he is.
He's a founder of convert kit. He was on the podcast, upload that to toot my own horn. he wrote a blog. I don't even remember. I don't know if I even read the whole thing. it was basically talking about how great attitude is like a bunch of BS and like it breeds complacency. And I thought it was the most, like I thought it was just like a.
Kalen: [00:47:26] That's a controversial take counter. it's a controversial take,
Mike: [00:47:30] but it was I didn't agree with it. but I didn't. but if you think about that and I'm like, he's right. To some degree, I think you're always constant. If you always concentrate on gratitude, like then you can fall into complacency.
Cause you're just like, Oh, my life is so great. And then you don't like aspire to greatness and but it's interesting. Cause it's he. Also hearing about some of the things that he dealt with, like some anxiety and some different things like that as he was growing convert kids. And, some of the titles that took and like we talked about earlier, I think about a guy by the name of Sean McCabe, who [00:48:00] Sean West at Sean West, I think is his Twitter handle.
He took a sabbatical year because he got burned out. And he was a guy that I looked up to. He was like putting out a ton of content. It was like amazing. And he just did really good work and it's I was inspired slash envious of him. And. It's a fine line between being just envious or dismissing them for being like, Oh yeah, that's great.
But he has a crappy family life, so that, yeah, I could do that, but I, that's what the cost, so it's whatever you just poo-pooed away to. Whereas if you take the middle road to say, how can I be inspired by this person? Or what can I learn from them and be aware of, okay, what are all the pros and cons here of what this person's doing?
And how do I make myself better? As as a result, it's yeah, we're talking about Gary Vaynerchuk. He's a classic example. Dude says family first. And then he works like 24 seven. And it's like, why don't you spend the time with your family man? dude, you're obviously a horrible dad. And maybe I'm saying that to justify the fact that I'm [00:49:00] not hustling as much as he is, but Something's not adding up here.
Kalen: [00:49:04] Yeah. I remember, I remember listening to Gary V back, maybe 10 years ago and there was a time and there were, and I think he's evolved on this topic quite a bit. And he had said something like, he was like, yeah, I'm going to let my kids use a phone from whenever they're young and whatever.
That's the world that they're in. And it was just like a very, it was like a very like capitalistic approach sorted to kids. And I had to stop listening. I was like, this is too much for me. And I've gone in and out of phases. And then more recently as I've listened to his stuff, I really love his, a lot of his approach.
And I think he's balanced out over time, and he talks about how he'll take these six week vacations that are totally unplugged, just family and things like that. And then when he's working, but on the weekends, he's taking off and finding his own balance. I think finding zone balance within a context of being.
Driven at a level that we [00:50:00] probably don't understand what's going on in his brain of how driven he is and finding that balance, I think can be tricky. But, but it's interesting because I, I find that there can be people who, particularly, if I feel like. We are at the same level or we're close to the same level.
And then all of a sudden they're up here. I have a hard time drawing inspiration. It's easier for me to feel that jealous versus if they're already up here, it's just Oh yeah, they're just up here. That's awesome. I want to be like them. so I've had those situations where it just, it constantly aggravates me.
And then I just have to see less of it in my feed because it's just, I just have, I just I'm not, I'm an issue, I just, you just jumped on extreme.
Mike: [00:50:50] You're like, I'm just gonna get rid of it. Yeah, sorry. And then,
Kalen: [00:50:54] and sometimes
Mike: [00:50:55] you're preaching to the choir on this scale of I
Kalen: [00:50:57] know, and you're right.
I do the line. I do the extreme thing a [00:51:00] lot. And, it's part of my, it's part of my nature. It's one of the things that I need to work on. but yeah, the Nathan Barry thing is real funny because I had an email software. That I was at the same revenue level as him. You remember when he was at the 5,000?
Yeah.
Mike: [00:51:20] Yeah, it was like an experiment, He was trying to do like an app challenge or something
Kalen: [00:51:24] like that, but in his post where he talks about how he was just. I think it was at like 5,000 a month. I don't know if you've read this post, but somebody challenged. I think it was Heaton Shaw, challenged him and said, Hey, you got to go all the way on this.
And then he decided to go all the way on this. And then his revenue is, I think it's 2 million. I think it's a, what is it?
Mike: [00:51:47] 2 million a month. It's 2 million MMR MRR.
Kalen: [00:51:50] It's too late a month. So think about this man. We were both at 5,000 at the same time. And mine had some modest growth to that point. very [00:52:00] modest.
but his is just, it's absurd. th like the way it's grown. and so that was one of those things where it was like, Oh, I thought we were on the same Le no, you were not, you're not on his level, dude. You're not. and, yeah, I like, I think, he's a, he just seems like an amazing guy.
and,
Mike: [00:52:18] I would say you're preaching to the choir on that. I can relate to you 1000000%. I never even actually had an app that was that successful. So you'd beat me on that. Caitlin, but it's that is a breeding grounds for resentment and robbing your life of what you're actually, doing.
So it's like
Kalen: [00:52:38] you,
Mike: [00:52:39] you can then constantly like, Be mad at yourself that you didn't go all in on that. And then you can start to resent like that. And maybe you didn't in that timeframe, you had really good quality time with your kids. You did all these other things that you're not even thinking about.
You're all, you're only thinking about how you didn't do that one thing. And then you can start to resent your family, be like how many. Man. I sacrificed my business on the alter of [00:53:00] my family. I'm one to say you don't, you shouldn't sacrifice your family on your altruist success, but maybe I've sacrificed my success on the alter, my family.
And that sounds bad to say that because it's like, how could you say that? But it's you can yeah.
Kalen: [00:53:11] feel that feel battle that.
Mike: [00:53:13] And you can re you can resent your family and no one's ever going back now. I don't really resent my family, but you can, you actually do
Kalen: [00:53:20] sometimes,
Mike: [00:53:21] maybe that makes me a jerk dad.
I don't know. But it's you can totally do that.
Kalen: [00:53:25] So it's like everybody, but he's saying very few people say them, And articulate that,
Mike: [00:53:31] you can, but you can, then it goes back to the extremes and I'll harp on this on broken, freaking record. But it's you can. You can go to the extreme of if you find out struggled with anxiety and he struggled with overwhelm and maybe depression or something as he was growing his business.
Yup. Told you so yep. That idiot. Yeah. I asked why and build that business. Yeah. So he sucks. I bet his family sucks too. I bet you he's actually a crappy dad. you jump to the cynical, like negative side. [00:54:00] And it's I'm sure you haven't done any of this. but it's that's an extreme instead you can say, okay, I consciously made these decisions and maybe they weren't in line with what I wanted to do, but it's neither here nor there I have to concentrate on.
Okay. What went well, what didn't go well and how am I going to adjust? And I think one thing I'm struggling with, and I would assume there's a lot of dads in this boat is this is something I'm like going through, like right now, just to be fully candid. It's like kind of this weird, like midlife crisis, like scenario, but it's not a midlife crisis.
It's you're like, okay. I feel like both of us are probably the same level in terms of Engagement with our kids. Like we, we didn't sacrifice time with our kids to grow this career, this crazy career. So it's not like you're going through a midlife crisis where you put in all these hours and then also your kids are grown and you're like, Oh, I just want to like, buy a sports car or something, but it's I put in all this time and I didn't give that enough credit for all the things I did do.
And maybe I sacrifice doing these other like businesses, [00:55:00] endeavors, or hobbies or whatever. Instead I poured into my kids and you, but you're not thinking about that. You're just seeing all the things you didn't do. And then you're realizing you're like, okay, My values changed in the process. I don't want to, I don't want to run a unicorn or I don't want to grow this massive business, but I feel like I didn't achieve the things I wanted to achieve.
And I don't really know what my next steps are. Goal wise. Like I don't really know where I want to go, but I see these other people that I want to copy. And so you're struggling with it, a goal, what you're now, what your goals are. So you're so there's like this, When we talk about like doing the work and working on yourself and all this stuff, like why
Kalen: [00:55:35] you,
Mike: [00:55:37] you have to chase what you're interested in, but that only gets you so far.
And if you actually have a goal in mind that aligns with that's going to help you achieve greatness really and achieve so much. If you're just constantly chasing what interests you're going to have like shiny object syndrome. but you can, I think at this stage of life with young kids, it's kinda You wake up and you're like, Oh shoot. Where did I want to be when I was this age? And I feel like I'm kinda behind the eight ball now [00:56:00] and what do I want to do? and that's hard. for me, it's you see you have enough knowledge and exposure to like the pros and cons that it takes on the work that it takes to achieve some things.
So you're yeah, I see. I'm not naive enough to be like, I'm just gonna go out there and start this big business because you're not even, you don't see all the downfalls. You're like, yeah. I've seen some guys that have really F that up, like they really sacrifice their family on the alter that business.
And I don't want to do that, but I want to have ambitious goals. It's And maybe this doesn't resonate with you, Caitlin. I don't know, but it's
Kalen: [00:56:32] I don't know. I don't necessarily have that feeling of
Mike: [00:56:40] what's. No,
no,
Kalen: [00:56:49] I know. I think that's real though, man. I. Sometimes, we all have different things. I can talk about things that you probably wouldn't struggle with [00:57:00] and all that out. no, man, I think that, I would have guessed that a lot of people do, feel that way. I definitely, like I said, I have the feeling of being jealous of some people that have more success than I do.
Yeah. I just, I don't know, it maybe to be honest, that you've been more consistent about prioritizing your family. I had a period of time where I was working every night. I had my day job and I was working every night and we had a toddler and my wife hated me for a period of time. And was that what I advise somebody to do that, to have a day job and then have a side hustle for two hours every night with a wife and two kids.
One of whom is an infant. No, that doesn't sound like a smart thing to do. And it may be that. Maybe I did have periods of sacrificing the family more than you. And then, so maybe that's part of why I don't have that sense. And it's [00:58:00] maybe if you were real consistent the whole time and you never. You never, over, did it on work.
Maybe there could be some regrets there, something like that. But, yeah, I definitely feel jealousy. and I'm learning to be more honest with myself about it, like about when I feel that way, and I was hanging out with a buddy who got a new house recently and it's one of the most beautiful houses I've ever seen.
And I was like, I was a little bit jealous, I had to be honest with myself and it's if I wanted to try to afford a place that was a little nicer could I will probably. But I also like living above, below my means, or what is it above or below? My means. I like having a simplicity there and things like that.
Like in Austin, like if you want to live on the Lake here in Austin, A lot of people do that. And there's some really nice places on the Lake and we're not on the Lake, we're in another area. We really love the neighborhood that we're [00:59:00] in, but there's just a million things, That you can be jealous of, whether it's.
Where somebody lives, what, how fit they are, what, how many kids they have, and then what, where are your kids, how your kids are doing and X, Y, and Z and money. And there's just, I think we all struggle with that. Some flavor of it. And everybody's a little bit unique in their struggle.
I,
Mike: [00:59:25] yeah,
Kalen: [00:59:26] I feel bad that
Mike: [00:59:28] I'm just razzing you, man. I don't care. Okay. I do care, but, I
Kalen: [00:59:32] care, but I don't care. The, I
Mike: [00:59:36] guess where I come at it with is
Kalen: [00:59:38] what are the tactics
Mike: [00:59:39] then for embracing the cause I think at the end of the day, you can take two extremes, one, you can justify your complacency by looking at the, all the negatives that resulted from someone's success.
Or you can take the other extreme of like totally going gung ho and sacrificing your family and saying, I'm going to, [01:00:00] I'm going to go all in on this because I want to be a success and all this. So it's both are bad. but how do you balance that? Because I think it's easier to just be complacent and say justify why you weren't as successful as them when maybe you weren't working hard enough.
and so it's there is something to be said for not living up to your full potential. And I think that's a little bit, what is. Rooted in what I'm going through is like how could I have done that more? Could I put in more effort and achieve that? And that's what you're saying with your whole, convert kit competitor was should I have done something different or was I not working hard enough or whatever, you're second guessing yourself.
And how do you shift that to a mentality? Okay. I'm just going to try to get better every day and get better every day. Doesn't mean I'm going to put in one more hour every day, because I know. Yeah, that's going to come at the expense of something else, but it's like, how do I do things? Like, how do I, sleep better, work out more.
So I feel better. So I'm more engaged with my kids or how do I, [01:01:00] simplify my life, live below my means. So I don't have more stuff that's like taking a mental toll or whatever. and how do you surround yourself with people that are like that? Because I think kinda what you're saying with curating your feed.
That's really important because if you're surrounding yourself with successful people that are always posturing to display their success, that's not healthy. Like they're, I think it's like, how do you surround yourself with someone, with people that are, growth minded, but maybe are just like one step ahead of you or maybe they're one step behind you.
So you're actually like helping them to, it's I think there's something to be said for that.
Kalen: [01:01:31] Yeah. Yeah. I think, there's so much, there's so much that you said there, I, that I connect to, I think that, for me, there's definitely ways that I look back and I go, I could have worked harder.
I could have been more focused. I do. to do a variety of different things and that can be a strength, could also be a weakness. Gary V I think about also does a lot of different things. He has, his holding company has wine brand. His agency has e-commerce agency has [01:02:00] sports agency, and yet he does.
Find ways to make it work. and there's other people, Jeff Bezos, Hyperfocused on Amazon. and just single simple source though, right?
Mike: [01:02:12] Like he's divorced.
Kalen: [01:02:14] Yeah. Horrible person. Horrible for the record. Yeah. And yeah, like there's, that balance is something I've struggled with.
I also, like going back a year or so. I was really not inspired at all by the work I was doing. And I was, I was not coding. I was not iterating on the product. I wasn't improving it. I was maintaining things and was doing fine financially, but, I was real disconnected and I've Have reconnected with that. And I have a nice, bit more balanced thing now where I'm feeling more inspired than I was in the past. And I'm seeing momentum moving in the right direction for awhile. My revenue was going down. My revenue went down by about half. and I was like, man, I need [01:03:00] to fix this.
And I am feeling better about it, but I'm also doing stuff like this where we just talk for an hour and a half about being a dad and stuff like that, because is this directly related to my business? No, but it's something that. It's a real curiosity for me. It's something that I'll walk away from.
This conversation fired up, and I, and it's something that I'm learning. Like I realized for me when I'm doing content, if I'm going to talk to somebody and do a podcast or whatever, non podcast, any kind of a call, if I'm going to spend time with somebody, I want to be learning something.
And it could be learning. There could be a lot of different things that could potentially be learning, but if I'm like I've had podcasts in the past where it made sense for my audience, the topic made sense. It was a lot , but I had zero interest in it. I had zero curiosity. and that's one of the things I'm really trying to optimize for, to really be genuinely curious in everything I'm doing.
[01:04:00] Mike: [01:04:00] Sorry. I had to text my wife cause, we're nearing the end of our time slot.
Kalen: [01:04:03] Yeah, we are. We are transparency. I wanted to voice that we are nearing the end of the slide here and why don't I give you the final word and then we'll, give, you can let me, we will know where to find you online.
Mike: [01:04:17] Awesome. So I have to define a word. You say you're doing the
Kalen: [01:04:21] final word. no, you're no you're doing any, I'll do
Mike: [01:04:24] the thought. I want it to say, I wanted to say, to do this again. I think we should do a regular collaboration. I think so to that podcast. So I think we only scratched the surface, man.
There's an iceberg knowledge waiting. th the final word would be, I think. this, there was a very, a thing that happened when we were talking about surrounding yourself with people and talking through issues and learning in this podcast was like, really I'm fired up. And I think there's something to be said for constantly embracing that balance.
Or the spectrum that is parenting the spectrum that is like business, because there's always going to be, tradeoffs [01:05:00] and it's like always assessing those, but then having a growth mindset. And I think that's something I'm learning every day. I'm not an expert at, but, it's a. I'll share one thing.
It was funny because that's one thing with my podcast that I started as a passion project. So then I didn't really care about its success. I'm like, I'm not trying to monetize this isn't a side hustle. But that kind of made complacency, creep in, and it's like mediocrity kind of creep crept in and it's no, this is still really important to me.
I still wanna invest my time into it and I need to make this the best I can be, and I don't want that to be an excuse for my laziness. Like the fact that it's just a passion project. And so I think that's really important, but yeah. you can find me at dot com. Number two sent dad.com.
I'm at, Soodek on Twitter, a S at SUD YK. but yeah, just describe the podcast. I'm excited to do this again, Kaylyn, but thanks for that.
Kalen: [01:05:54] Thanks for sharing. I have about six or seven, like subtopics now that I have in mind to, to talk about. [01:06:00] So I appreciate it. I had a blast and, we'll definitely talk again soon.
So thanks everybody for tuning in and we'll
see you back.
John Beede, a legendary mountain climber (and dad) joins me on the podcast to talk about his journey up Mount Everest and the discoveries made during the journey that influence young men today.
Where to find John:
- Warrior Challenge Books
- John’s YouTube Channel
- John on Twitter
Transcription below (May contain typos...)
[00:03:00] [00:02:00] [00:01:00] [00:00:00]Mike: [00:03:34] on the podcast, we have a mountain climber, a Mount Everest summiting mountain climber. John BD is on the two set dad podcast today. I'm super excited to talk to you and hear your stories, John.
Thanks for being on, man. Mike
John: [00:03:48] also happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And I
Mike: [00:03:51] know you've got an upcoming book coming out called the warrior challenge, you know, eight steps for 'em. Becoming a true warrior that's, that's aimed at, young [00:04:00] boys. And, yeah, but, and we've talked about that a little bit, but I'm just excited to hear some stories, man, that, you know, you've done quite a bit.
And, you know, maybe, maybe give a little background for, for the listeners on, on how you came to, to climb Mount Everest.
John: [00:04:13] Sure. So not only Everest, but I've climbed the tallest mountain on every continent have traveled to, I think it's at 67 countries now. It's an only, so often it actually kind of like sit down and add them up.
and I've been kite surfing on every major ocean. so I've had some adventures that's for sure not to, to fund all of this. I've been giving professional keynote speeches to now call almost like just short of 1 million live audience members in 48 States, six continents or six countries on six continents.
So that's my. That's who I am. That's
Mike: [00:04:47] awesome. That's amazing. I knew some of those facts that I was gonna say those before the interview started. I'm like, I'm probably going to miss a few anyways. So I see John get, fill in the gap. Oh
John: [00:04:57] good. There you go. There you go. That's it.
[00:05:00] Mike: [00:05:00] So w which was the first mountain you climb?
Tell me about like, take me back to how you got started doing this man and like,
John: [00:05:07] Oh, okay. So I was a boy scout. Eagle scout and would teach rock climbing, you know, just up 30, 40 foot tiny walls in Washington state. where I went to the summer camp in 2004, my buddy rings me up and says, I'm in university now.
And he's like, Hey, if you want, I'm going to climb the grand Teton. Do you want to go with me? And we were dirt bag. Poor had no money, had no equipment. And we're like, yeah, sure. And I'm thinking like, I'm an instructor I've got, there's no problem. So we, we roll up, we get to the trail head at 10:00 PM and we don't, we can't afford a tent.
So we decided we're going to do it all in one day. Most people do it in three days. We were like, we're going to just go do it in one shot because tents are too expensive. We don't have. Proper gear. Like we call them, cams and quick draws the equipment [00:06:00] to secure your rope into the cliff. Well, all we had was a rope.
We said, okay, here's the plan? Here's the plan. If one person falls. While that person is falling. The other person needs to jump over a rock so that we pendulum swing and both of us were like, yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Well that's how we're going to climb this thing.
Mike: [00:06:21] That's good. Sounds like a plan.
John: [00:06:24] Yeah.
Why not? So like out of complete moron, stupidity, and total disregard for anything safety, somehow we made it up, got back down and like on the way back down word. Somehow got out and people were going, are you to the idiots that were like, did it in one shot and didn't use like any gear? Yeah. That was us thinking.
We're all cool. Yeah. So that was the start of it then I, but the progression forward was the exact same, but with learned lessons on each progressing lead difficult mountain. [00:07:00] So it would start with this like, so totally silly, climb in, in Wyoming. Then I went to South America, climbed the tallest mountain.
There didn't even summit got knocked off, but learned a lot from it. Then I went and took a Denali prep course, went and climbed Denali summited, and learned from it, made a bunch of mistakes and went like that over and over and over until I had made all the mistakes possible that you could make on Everest, but I learned how to overcome them or how to handle it when situations like that came up.
and by the time that I decided, yep, I'm ready. Like, I know everything that, that Mountain's gonna throw to me. I believed I was, I was ready for it. And I was, yeah.
Mike: [00:07:38] Yeah. And tell me about that, that process. You know, I was watching one of the speeches that you gave around, you tell a story about climbing Everest and where you're, I think it's like your jacket turns from like red.
To like w w black and white, you know, and I was like, and you talk about this notion of like Cocker yourself. And so tell me a little bit [00:08:00] about, as you got progressively harder, you know, what, what was going on? It's more than just mountains at that point, right? I mean, you, you know, it's, it's impacting, you know, how you're viewing your own personal identity and then obviously how you're overcoming challenges.
So, so tell me a little bit about how that evolved. And then evolved into, obviously you share that wisdom, you know, in keynote
John: [00:08:21] speeches. Absolutely. So I never understood what my draw was to the mountains, or I couldn't clearly articulate it until I was in my thirties. And what I now know is that it's moving meditation and the process of climbing is not about going up.
Even though literally it is, but more important to me. It's about going in and learning to dig out what I've got inside of me and put myself in progressively more difficult or challenging situations and see how much inner strength I have to draw out. Now. That's like a [00:09:00] cool little, I don't know, you could call it a soundbite, I guess that took a decade of mountaineering work too, to understand.
That's why I love this because. I believe that I was made of more, but didn't have any way to quantify it back in the day of tribal human history, we used to have these, rites of passages where a young man was given. Here's what it takes to protect your tribe. Here's what it takes to be a, a guy who can look after yourself.
And for better or worse, we lost those. I mean, the bad side of it was that those were abusive, trials, but the good side is that gave us the standard of here's, what it means to be a man. And I don't know that we have that any longer, a clear definition of here's, what it takes, here's what you need to do in modern contemporary culture.
And I think that I started climbing so that I could create one of these for myself. did I answer the question or did I,
Mike: [00:09:59] you're getting, you're [00:10:00] getting deeper. I love it early, John. well you said you created it for yourself cause you didn't have it. That's really interesting. And you almost discovered that you didn't, what I'm hearing you say is you'd like discovered that you hadn't gone through that sort of write a past and you were like creating it and then it was a journey of creating it.
And I'd like you to unpack that a little bit more because I feel like. Especially dads. And, you know, as they're trying to raise young boys and to, to go through these rites of passages, either, either someone did go through, read a passage and they're able to, to understand and articulate that and say, Hey, I wanna, I wanna, I want to also create those, write a pass just for my children or they didn't.
And then they're having to do that first themselves, or they partially did or something. So then they're ill equipped to actually. Actually have, are, have their kids go through that. Right. You know, so I think it's a really interesting concept. And, and I'd like to, to hear a little bit more about how that evolved and how you realize that, through the, through the [00:11:00] climbing thing, because I think.
Obviously it was a process wasn't immediately apparent like, Oh, I got to go through to one of those. Right. A passenger's things right now. Let's do that next weekend. You know, it wasn't like that, obviously, you know? So it's like, so tell me about how you, it was like the discovery or the, you know, you said you realized that the draw to the mountains was that, so just tell me a little bit more about some of the, some of the, the ahas, you know, through that process.
So you
John: [00:11:24] mentioned in the last question, when my jacket started turning from red to gray and I didn't go clear about what that was about. Yeah. So for, I was listening, you know, you heard the speech, but for those listening, my oxygen was leaking and eventually ran out. Each bottle is meant to last for 10 hours.
These bottles lasted me for about three hours. And what, what happened was the temperature was so cold that the O ring, which seals the, the, you know, the threads between the regulator and the bottle, became so cold that it cracked. And that little bit of that crack was causing the seeping of the [00:12:00] air.
And I couldn't figure it out because my, you only have. 30 seconds of being able to take your gloves off and then you're touching metal. And if you've ever been skiing and you've touched metal, like, you know that that's not a fun experience. So I mentioned that because I was put to the face of death and immediately after that happened, I came across a man who.
was left behind by his team. He was on his last breath. I was the last person to see him take a breath to my knowledge. I did everything I could to try and rescue him, but, this sent me through a deep questioning of why am I doing this?
Mike: [00:12:38] so you were just like seeing a guy die basically, is what you're saying.
John: [00:12:42] I saw my jacket turned from red to gray. Yeah. I knew my oxygen was running out. I was continuing to climb. And then they're on the right side of me is a guy who was on his last breath. And as far as I know, he took that last breath. When I was there with me, I tried everything I could, as I mentioned to try and save [00:13:00] him.
But that resulted after somebody and getting back down safe several months later, I wasn't right. Like I was terrified if I had to go out in public. I remember once I was trying to hide and hand cash across the counter at a coffee shop and was trembling and couldn't figure out why I thought somebody behind me was going to attack me.
It was post traumatic stress disorder. And so by going through the process of therapy and digging deep into this one event, it opened all these past ideas of like, why did you have to do this climbing in the first place? Well, what did it, what was it it's going to mean to you? And how do you now choose for it to mean now five for the symptoms of PTSD any longer, which like super happy about that.
Of course it's a much happier place to be. But that's what it took for me to realize that it was a Rite of passage. It took this kind of, I call them, wake up, smacks every guy at some point in his life, whether it's through a breakup, a parent passing away a traumatic event, something that happens in their [00:14:00] workplace, like as we're seeing with like, ER, doctors, firefighters, you know, wildland firefighters, we've everybody, at some point faces this traumatic moment.
That kind of whacks you over the head and makes you ask what is this about for you? And the cool thing is that we eat, we all get to decide that. So that's my roundabout answer of why I realized that these mountains were a Rite of passage because it was the process of, I'm not sure what I'm doing out here in life.
I had this traumatic smack and then through that unraveling or that therapeutic process, I figured it out. And it's one that sits. At peace with me.
Mike: [00:14:44] So obviously that's a, that's a really intense way to go about that, right? Yeah.
John: [00:14:49] And not everybody needs to go through that level of intensity. Trust me.
Mike: [00:14:53] Yeah.
So that's, I mean, I totally, I'm always like tracking like 110% with you as you're [00:15:00] typing. Like, so tell me like, so, so tell me about how. Obviously, this is a huge problem today, right? And you have, you have almost like guys that are maybe going through life and they haven't gone through that. And, and, and tell me about some of the symptoms that you see, or like before that, like what what's happening, you know, if they don't have one of these right.
Of passages and like how they can kind of seek it out and find it, or, you know, what were, what are some of the, some of the, advice that you'd give to someone that maybe is like, Maybe like a couple months before you in that whole process.
John: [00:15:35] Sure. So I think that men today result, we end up because of this lack of a clear path to it, what it is to be a man, we have two end results that are both toxic.
We've become on one end of the scale. Like this agro male tough guy, trying to overcompensate, you know, like getting, like trying to just puff up the chest in every situation. And [00:16:00] that hurts other people around you. That's not the point of being a quality man. The other end of that is being a roll over pushover, nice guy that doesn't have a backbone also destructive to yourself and to the other people around you.
So if you recognize either those in yourself, which I think we all can, I mean, I've been on both sides of those at some point or another. And, if you're listening right now, like I can see like in Steve nodding in the video right here, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you record, if you recognize any of that in yourself, I think that seeing both the negative result, which is going to be like, we end up expressing that in numbness, numbing the pain away, nice thing, the pain away, or like, Overcompensating the pain away.
If you notice yourself doing any of those things, that's the moment that you're being called. And it's not like a, [00:17:00] it's not going to be your friend stepping up and saying, come on. Now's your time? Like, it's not a call to action. Like in the films, it's a quiet whisper that comes from your heart of, Hey man, you're made for something more.
Are you ready to step up to that light? That little nudge is that path that it's asking you, it's time to step up now. What do you do? Like you don't have to climb Mount Everest. You don't have to encounter a man on his last breath and see him pass away, but find something that's challenging and you can do this with your son.
I know this is a dads podcast. So like talk to your son about this, say, Hey, what would it mean? For you to feel like you had done something so bad ass and awesome that you feel like you have an increased level of confidence, and this could be something in your family, like becoming an Eagle scout or like learning to throw up football 30 [00:18:00] yards.
What is it in your family that makes you feel like if you agree, your son had this and you had this that's, this would be like another level of hell yeah. And if you can find that, that is the start of where your Rite of passage should be.
Mike: [00:18:18] Yeah. So that's, I don't even know where to go from that. That was really thick.
I mean, there's a lot there. I mean, so, You said it's not like the movies, you know, it's not like some there's going to be this like perfect scene.
John: [00:18:36] There's no Obi wan Kenobi. Yeah. Are you having a
Mike: [00:18:38] beer with your buddy? And he just totally is like, yeah. I think I want to dig in on that a little bit because.
I think, you know, personally I've felt times where I've kind of gone through that. And then it's like, you almost don't know where to turn in terms of, you know, other fellow warriors or something to, to encourage you or say, Hey, I went through that and this is how it [00:19:00] turned out, I think. and I think that's really important, especially for like dads that, As they're, they're kind of transitioning in this new phase of life.
And if they maybe have some of those incidents where they say had didn't, I'm feeling like there's more and now I gotta, now I gotta, you know, I have this great challenge of like raising these, these boys or, or whatever. when you have those nudges and not having a, a way to necessarily like, leverage those around you and, and maybe you don't have the vocabulary to talk about it, or you don't know, even, you don't know what the next step is.
Right. And so tell me, tell me about that. Like what, that's obviously a problem, but I, you see there's, there's a, there's a, there's an overcompensation and then a numbness that, that is, that exists maybe in the community around you. And so like they're going to respond one way or the other. Yeah. Oh yeah. I did this.
No, no, no, no. You know, puff up the chest. I'm a badass or you say, yeah, it's not a big deal. Just kind of put it away. You know, on the other end of the spectrum. So, you know, can you speak to that a little bit? I know there, wasn't a clear question in there, but
[00:20:00] John: [00:19:59] that's her conversation is ran
without making like a super big plug for the book. I do lay out the steps for here's the, like the five components for a Rite of passage. So if any dad wants to, it's in the very back of the appendix, like here's how to create a Rite of passage with step by step instructions for your son or for the young man in your life.
to what you just said though. I think that because there's not this like Obi wan Kenobi saying, Hey, here's exactly what your Rite of passage should be in pointing at the Darth Vader of your life. And that's who you have to defeat. And then you'll like, when the princess, like, it's not that clear for us, but in that case, that was his sister.
So that got all weird. I wasn't princess, he wanted to win anyway, but anyway, back on track, I think that for guys it's about. Vulnerability and admitting where the hurt is. And by being the one courageous enough to step up and do that, you will inadvertently [00:21:00] inspire others to do so well.
And suddenly you can all more clearly hear that little inner nudge of, Hey, like there's more and there's a path and you just have to be courageous enough to go after it. an example of this. My friend David flood. He's a, he's another speaker. You know, we all have our, like colleagues of, of professionals seasoned.
He's another speaker. He calls me up one day and says, Hey, I was just thinking about you. Cause I'm walking through this town after giving this speech. And I feel like there's nobody around who like understands this. Have you ever felt that way? Like he said, I don't understand. I feel like other people don't.
No, how lonely this is to be out here. Like you give this big speech and then you walk off stage and you just like, get on your airplane and fly home. It's like really a contrast to have you ever felt that way? And by him opening up with that vulnerability first, he called me randomly at the most important time when I needed that conversation, I had that [00:22:00] courage to go there as well.
So by being that person who says, amen, here's what hurts for me. Have you ever felt something similar? That's what opens up those conversations to where it takes your crew from being this numbing or overly tough crowd to like, Hey, here's, what's actually going on. Here's what's true. And right now we are all hurting in some way in coronavirus.
Like I was thinking when I was getting ready for this, if you're a dad out there, you've got a family. You're probably going out of your mind, trying to figure out how to work and look after your kid. While the kids at home on zoom calls. Meanwhile, blown
Mike: [00:22:35] apart,
John: [00:22:38] cities are burning well, like protests and things to the ground, and everybody hates each other online.
yeah. Meanwhile, like I'm a single guy I'm here alone at my place. Like we're all struggling in different ways, but just to admit here's the struggle. I think that's incredibly empowering in the end for guys. Hm.
Mike: [00:22:57] I think that's important. In that there's [00:23:00] the, the, the spectrum exists. So, so w you can, you can say, yeah, you need to be vulnerable. And then immediately there's reactions that go either way, either like either it's like, no, no, not vulnerability. Yeah. Right. John, I can admit that. I got to, I got to keep out his persona. I gotta like fake it till I make it right.
Like, I'm going to be strong or you say, yeah, The vulnerability is good, but you embrace the vulnerability and there's never a call to actually, you know, transcend that, that vulnerability. Right. So you're saying, Hey, to not be complacent after the vulnerability, right. It's like,
John: [00:23:32] yes,
Mike: [00:23:33] great. There's like a feminine side and this is where we get into like genders and stuff.
But it's like, there's like a feminine side that wants to comfort. And so as masculinity, this is my belief. I think what you see is there's, there's masculinity. That's kind of been decreased, you know, in, in the world and the feminine has been elevated. So it's like the vulnerability is cast aside because for the macho man, right.
Cause they're like, nah, that's more feminine, but holistically it's like, yeah, they, [00:24:00] they take the vulnerability and it's like, yeah, I'm vulnerable. And then. The, you know, the feminine side is like, yeah, that's great. That's fine. Let's talk about that. Let me comfort you, which is fine. They're just different.
They're not, that's not like worse or whatever, but yeah. Then you, you embrace that comfort. There's never a charge to say, well, you actually can anymore. And you're called to more. So let's take them on and let's just discuss that. And then let's, let's, let's transcend that and go, go beyond it. Right.
John: [00:24:24] That is such a good distinction and question because I'm fully on board with you.
This is not a licensed to complain and whine and like sit in your pity of look at how tough things are in my life. The Mandan tribe of their like South Dakota, North Dakota area. They used to have a Rite of passage where the young man would be speared through the skin of his chest hung up drugged. And when he was dropped down, they would Trop off his finger, making him look at his finger, feeling the pain.
And they would say, yeah, he's screaming. Yeah, of course it hurts. And [00:25:00] they would show him, teach him how to breathe through that pain. Look at his missing finger that he would hold in his other hand and say, I am bigger than this pain. There's more inside of me than what hurts. And I'm now the kind of guy who knows that, no matter how tough the situation I have, what it takes to overcome, that's what mountaineering was for me.
It was this like, Oh my gosh, everything's so painful. These mountains. Aren't like, sometimes they're not fun. You're just slogging through the darkness. And one o'clock in the morning I saw around you, it was the same thing. And it's. I mean without losing a finger, thankfully I didn't freeze off. It was this like looking deep into myself.
Do I have what it is? It takes to overcome whatever the world can throw at me. And that's the same point of a Rite of passage for, for you listening for your son, for the young man in your life. It's can you handle the challenges that come up and society have right now and [00:26:00] improve, improve the world and uplift others by acknowledging that the yeah.
There's pain. But you have proven already to yourself that you can get past it.
Mike: [00:26:09] Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the, that's sort of super fascinating about the Indian tribe, by the way. So, so they just, they just lose a finger then they just that's the
John: [00:26:18] that's what happened to her after being feared through the skin of their chest and hung up overnight, like, like suspended by the skin drugged.
Drop down, chop off their finger and then they'd whip them and they'd have to run around the village. And this was their Rite of passage for becoming a man. Wow. It's been stopped, but that, that was what they had to do. Wow.
Mike: [00:26:42] So tell me about the five steps that you proposed.
John: [00:26:49] Yeah, absolutely. So the first one is what I mentioned and that's two. find something that's challenging, but still within reach. Right? Like if it's so hard that you're like, there's [00:27:00] no way possible that I could ever do it, then all it is is a formula for being deflated. So that's step one, step number two, does it has to be relevant like right now, if Mike, you had your finger chopped off, you'd be like, that was ridiculous.
I just lost my finger for no reason. Back then they had. Bison that would spear them. So they had to learn how to overcome the pain of being speared. That's why that like spearing through the skin happened so that if the village was ever being attacked, they would know like, Hey, I'm not scared of this thing.
Cause I know what it's like to be speared as though a bison were going to spear me. So you got to come up with something that's like relevant to you and your world today. purposeful the, it has to be something that you have a question of. What's going to be answered by doing this. Like it has to have a point.
What is it within you that you feel calling at you you'd like to bring out that's third, fourth is guided. Someone should be there walking you through. It is every big climb I've [00:28:00] gone on. I've had somebody there, whether it was a friend or a paid professional guide who took me by the hand through each progressive step.
Same thing with Rite of passage is even when the. Aboriginals in Australia, sent their boys off into the desert for six months. They had a training process where there was a guide showing them all the dangers of the desert beforehand. So find somebody who's been there before you, and if you're a father doing this for your son, that could be you.
If you're the father looking for the Rite of passage of your own higher professional guide, you know, if it's like, I want to catch 10 fish, fly fishing, never been fly fishing, but there's something about that. Go to places. There's a guy like the greatest guy in North America. And then the last one is there's gotta be some element of it.
That's fun like that carries you through it. I don't know if those last one, those like having your finger chopped off is fun for those kids or any of that process was, but now we get to choose. Right. in Vanuatu, the young men would jump off of a 100 foot tree with, [00:29:00] with vines suspended, tied around their legs and they would bungee jump.
Like that sounds fun. Like other than. Not wanting to hit the ground when they get down, but that's, that's like, there's gotta be an element of, of this is awesome. I'm really enjoying this. So those are the five steps that I recommend. Yeah, go ahead. I'm basically reading straight out of the book right now.
The warrior challenge, it's called eight quests for boys to grow up with kindness, courage, and grit. And it actually comes out tomorrow from the date that we're recording this. So I'm super pumped.
Mike: [00:29:32] Yeah, that's awesome. So, yeah, September 1st. So congrats, man. I really appreciate talking to you, John. I, I think this is a very important topic.
I think it's a, for, for, I think men that haven't gone through Rite of passage, I think it's, it's a really confusing topic because it's so. in tangled with like, you know, this, this notion of like bullying or of a, you know, hazing, you know, which is typically a right of passage that a mini Rite of passage, I might say, or just [00:30:00] something difficult.
Right. And so it's kinda like, well, that's too hard or whatever that is, you know? It's just a, it's just an interesting topic because it's like, it's not fully understood. Right. And so it's kind of this notion of like comfort comes in and, and totally, you know, negates these rights of passages. Right.
Because they're, they're very difficult and maybe they're, they, they, they harm you in some way. Or they're, they're like, They're just not like clean, right? In many senses of the
John: [00:30:30] word. Well, that, that's why they stopped. Right. And that's why, I mean, nobody should have to face a dead guy on the side of a mountain.
Like that was a very painful experience. and that's what eventually led to why I wanted to write this book so that there could be a Rite of passage for young men that is not. That gruesome hazing painful experience, but still teaches. Hey, here's how to step up as a man. Here's how to have self-awareness.
Here's how to set what values you have for yourself, [00:31:00] your personal boundaries. Here's how to have grit. Here's how to avoid toxic relationships. Here's how to push through, when things are different Colton believe in equality and find your purpose. Those are all the things that are here for 10 to 18 year old boys.
And, I, I aim to create a Rite of passage that was in the form of a book and not of a traumatic experience.
Mike: [00:31:22] Yeah. And so you can get the book on Amazon, I assume, and other places where it was the best place to find your John
John: [00:31:28] warrior challenge, book.com is where you can get, like I said, for your, for your listeners, there's, I'll give us a male assigned insert to anybody there there's a little offer for that.
as well as free samples of the audio book. chapter as well as ebook. And that'll link you right over to Amazon. If you enter your details there, we'll send you right to the order page. Or you could just go to Amazon and search for the warrior challenge, eight quests for boys to grow up with kindness, courage, and grit.
Mike: [00:31:57] Awesome. And we'll link all that up in the show notes. [00:32:00] Thanks, John. I appreciate your time, man. Mike,
John: [00:32:02] thank you so much for having me on the call.
It's not about being super muscular, its about being generally healthy in your body, soul, and mind. Dan Go joins me to chat about why this is vital for being a great dad but also a great husband. Dan explains why he helps entrepreneurs in this space and how he continues to work on himself in the process.
Where to find Dan:
- His website
Pod episode
Transcription (May contain typos…)
[00:00:00] Dan: [00:00:00] it's not about being Arnold Schwarzenegger. Actually, I don't think the six pack should be the goal for everybody. I don't think aesthetics should be the goal for everybody, although they do count.
They're great. I believe the goal should be again, a brain, enhancing your brain, reducing stress and getting your body to a point of where we feel it is normal enough, or you can live a nice, energetic and healthy life.
Mike: [00:00:26] today [00:01:00]on the podcast, we have Dan go as my special guest. and Dan is gonna talk about fitness. He's gonna talk about fatherhood.
He's a new dad. He's got a three month old daughter. so Dan, thanks for being on the podcast, man.
Dan: [00:01:20] Dude. Thank you so much for having me, Mike. yeah, man, I've been interacting with you on Twitter and it's been a, it's been a joy to interact with you. You're one of the 99% of people that are just awesome to interact with.
So very
Mike: [00:01:31] glad to be here. Okay. Back at you, man. that's why I wanted you have on this podcast is just because, obviously, cause you're a dad and, but one of the things that you talk about a lot is not becoming complacent. it's easy as dads when. you have your first kid, like stuff starts to just, you can get sot.
You think you can get soft in other areas. And fitness being the one that most people get soft on. So that's why I wanted to have you on man.
Dan: [00:01:54] Yeah. It's a, it's insidious, man. I'll tell you that, to see the [00:02:00] lack of, care that's put into their bodies. Once they have a kid, it's almost a.
It's almost like they're shooting themselves in the foot. So I, how I help a lot, dads, I hope specifically entrepreneurs, but I'll literally like 99% of the entrepreneurs. I help their dads. And usually when I talked to them, one of the things that's missing is energy with the kids. Also attraction to the wife.
they want their wife to feel proud of them. And I always say this to dads too. It's like you attracted your wife based maybe on 60, the 50% of physical attractiveness. Sure. Yeah. And then when you lose that, what do you think she's gonna, what do you think she's going to do?
And if, and to me it's like the whole being out of health is also insidious. It goes down to the family as well. So if you're out of shape, then it you're most likely going to have out of shape kids. And then you hear on Twitter, it's very binary, everyone says that being out of shape as being is like child abuse to kids or something like that, but [00:03:00] it is, it's a, we're all controlled by our environment and the people that we look up to.
And if they're not in shape, then yeah. It's not a good thing.
Mike: [00:03:08] so you hit on a topic that it was pretty charged, right? off the bat, which is being out of shape, but also raising out of shape. Kids is like child abuse. It's it is.
Dan: [00:03:15] A little bit in it's, it's something that a lot of people can't, I can't necessarily see because they're so focused on trying to survive a lot of them.
And, there's the trying to raise this kid. They're trying to put this kid on a sleep schedule. They're trying to get some sleep and they're trying to make money. They're trying to support the family, especially from a data perspective. I feel like there's two dichotomies, at least from my perspective, because my wife is doing, she's not working right now.
She's taking care of the kids and I'm still like working at home and I'm going in and out of taking care of her and all this kind of stuff. And I can see why the dad bod. Becomes a reality because if I didn't have my standards for my body, before I got into fatherhood, then I [00:04:00] saw myself starting to miss workouts.
I saw myself starting to get tired. I saw myself, I don't really want to cook today. Can we just like order from Uber? Yeah. And I see, but it's, it comes to a point where you have to set standards for yourself. When it comes to taking care of your body when it comes to eating, it's literally, you have to make the maturity into adulthood when you make, when you have to make these choices.
And a lot of people are still stuck in eating like children right now, or eating like their children, essentially.
Mike: [00:04:29] Yeah. And I can't remember if it was you that said making a comment about, with this whole quarantine COVID stuff, how that's easy, it's easy to just make an excuse, then like it either there's a group of people that utilize this time and said, I'm going to, I'm going to learn a skill or I'm gonna, I'm gonna work out more.
Or they're just like, they use an excuse to binge more on Netflix,
Dan: [00:04:49] Yeah, the COVID situation was a microcosm of how people dealt with adversity. So I'll tell you a little story for me. It's so I help entrepreneurs and [00:05:00] I sell, I coached them and I charge a pretty high ticket.
I'm very expensive. So when COVID hit it was around the same time that my daughter was born. She's about four months now. And that was like the first month in which I never signed on a client actually had a couple of clients fall off because they were just scared about the whole COVID situation.
Sure. and then for me, I was just like, Oh, am I allowed to swear on this? Just
Mike: [00:05:26] to put it out though, but you can swear.
Dan: [00:05:30] Oh, okay. I don't like the bleep, so I won't swear. But when I saw what was happening, I was scared. And I was scared as much as everyone else was when this hit and it was a litmus test and I was just like, okay, I can't keep on doing the things that I'm doing right now.
So what the heck am I going to do? So that's actually when Twitter, my Twitter account was born. And at the reason why we met is because in the [00:06:00] past, like four months, I've grown my Twitter account from zero to now it's 18.8 K, whatever it is. 18,000 followers it's going to hit 20 soon. And that whole reason for that Twitter account was because I was just needing to do something different in order to deal with this like such COVID situation to deal with this difference, this whole change.
And I look at covert as a microcosm as of how people deal with adversity. And, if you, if it brought you down and if it, if it made you like worse and you didn't do anything about it, That's something where you actually, we have to look at yourself and look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what that AF are you made of, and a lot of the people I hang around are the ones that used COVID to launch incredible amounts of success.
Not because they could have, but because they pivoted because they adapted. So covert to me, it was like an entire like adapt or die situation. And you're [00:07:00] seeing it play out even to this day.
Mike: [00:07:02] Yeah. And it's going to continue to play out. it's not like the uncertainty is going to go away anytime soon, right?
Yeah.
Dan: [00:07:07] it's actually just starting right now, right? Yeah. People don't realize the reverberating effects of what COVID bring. It's not just like the health aspect of things. It is the. Unemployment aspect. It is the businesses that are going out of business right now. It's the brick and mortars.
They're just closing their doors and we don't know of what these effects are going to be for the next six, six months to a year so far. Be it for me to say, if we're going to be forecasting, then we have to make our moves now. Yeah, whatever moves you're gonna make, gotta make them now, because you don't want to be gay.
You don't want to get caught up if, if who knows what happens six months, eight months down the road. So it should be increasing action.
Mike: [00:07:50] Yeah. So tell me about making moves, specifically about what you do with entrepreneurs, because intuitively, you think about entrepreneurs are Taipei's there, they're hardworking [00:08:00] guys.
There are gals, and. It sounds like, you're working with them to get fit because they tend to let the business consume them and then they don't work on these other areas. But tell me about some of the barriers that they have, that maybe you're helping them overcome as you work with them.
Dan: [00:08:15] Very there's very specific ones. So one, they are not to be compared to a regular nine to five person who works a corporate job punches in and punches out. They are dealing with extreme Leigh high levels of stress. They have to put extreme amounts of mental energy into their businesses from a creation aspect, from a management aspect from me, from dealing with all their.
Their cohorts and employees, and then it's still, they have to deal with everything that's happening in the family. They have family lives. So there's a very stark difference that I see with them. And yes, they are type a and I, for me, the reason I chose entrepreneurs is because I love working with type A's the same mentalities that they can bring from their businesses are the same [00:09:00] intelligence they can bring towards being healthier.
Now there is a mutually exclusive agreement that a lot of entrepreneurs have out there where they say that I must trade in my success for my body or my, I started my success for my business and I am a trade that with the health of my body. So they make this mutually exclusive agreement. they.
Succeed, I'm helping. the people I help are like the New York times bestsellers. They're the politicians. They are the, they're the people who are literally at the top of the, or fields. And they make this mutually exclusive agreement. Usually it's for about five to 10 years. And then afterwards that's when they come to me and they're like, all right, we need to start doing something about this.
Because, I actually talked about this before, that there are health warning signs out there. And if you're not heating these health warning signs, then you are just asking for it. It's like the check light sign that goes on in your car. it's like check engine, if you just totally ignore [00:10:00] that and you don't ask around, then guess what's going to happen to your car at that point.
So a lot of entrepreneurs that I work with, they're seeing these check engine lights, they're seeing that, number one, they can't even look down and. See their penis. Oh, that's one. Yeah. It's just that it's a bad thing. Come on guys. and the second thing, they don't have energy.
They are grinding energy. They are grinding energy for the business. And then when they get back home, they can do nothing, but just be just. On the couch, not doing anything, not even playing with their kids. The other ones are, like to get a little bit deeper with the penis thing. It's like they don't get erections in the morning.
Like I said, this on my Twitter. It's if you're not getting an erection in the morning, that's. A health warning sign. so there's a lot of these things that are happening and they're just like balancing it. It's like the guy who walks around with low back pain and he was like, I'm just going to live with this forever.
You're not. And when I started working with these guys and I started putting them onto what I [00:11:00] call like a mature eating style, start treating their bodies, like a mature adult. That's when they start to realize that health and also wealth. Are inextricably linked. So I've seen so many people that I've worked with.
So I'll give you a couple of examples. So I'm working with this New York times bestseller. He finished an entire biography of one of the biggest stars in human history. And he worked specifically worked cohort cohorted with him, completed the book during our time. He is, as he is as a. As not ruthless. I was going to say, but he's actually expanding his business now because he has the health.
He has the energy, he doesn't have the stress. And I have other people who just doubled their incomes, who just completely changed their businesses. I have by e-com guy where COVID hit them hard. And when we started working on this health, he actually had the mind to pivot and actually say this, and I know I'm going off on a tangent here, [00:12:00] but.
When you work out and when you take care of your health, it's not to look sexy. Yes. You want to look confident with your shirt off and all this kind of stuff. I get it. But what you are doing is you're changing your brain chemistry, right? You're not working out for your body as much as you are working out for your brain.
So when I see very fat entrepreneurs, We're crushing in their businesses. I'm like you could crush it three to four to five times more. If you just took care of your health.
Mike: [00:12:31] I think that's a, that's an under, discussed point because I feel like, maybe in the spheres, I'm always like in Twitter, it's kinda like you, this like workout Twitter.
That's all about like just young guys picking up ladies. And it's I guess that's cool if that's what you want to do. I, that just let her
Dan: [00:12:46] sweater.
Mike: [00:12:46] Yeah. there is, I noticed that when I'm not working out, when I let my workout slump, you're mentally not as cognizant as you would be. you're not performing at the level.
And it's Yes. I want to look sexy. Yeah. I want to attract my wife. Yeah. I want to, it's but at the same [00:13:00] time, there's this whole benefit over here. That's not talked about enough
Dan: [00:13:03] if the brain benefit is not even spoken when I talked to these entrepreneurs. So a lot of them say I just want to have more focus, and all this kind of stuff.
And even just going to the gym for an hour and lifting weights, you would not. You would not even believe the amount of ideas that comes when my clients do this. And when I do this as well, because what you're doing is you're literally sending endorphins into your body. So you're making yourself feel better, right?
You're sending these positive endorphins in the other thing is that it's actually proven by science that you are changing brain chemistry. You are making yourself less depressed. You are making yourself more focused. And a lot of the experiences that I have with clients actually, I'm helping this. I'm helping this guy who he's in New York and he was dealing with, these massive allergy [00:14:00] symptoms.
He was out of shape as well. He was, he had sleep apnea and. Just a couple of adjustments to his diet. We made a couple of, adjustments to his workouts and all this kind of stuff. He's actually telling me his energy went from a six out of 10 to an eight or nine out of 10 in one week. Just by being an adult with your body.
And then now he's starting to say that my wife or not his wife, but his girlfriend said to him is you're actually not snoring as much at night. As you were before. and again, now that he's going into his work, he actually does a startup. He says that he has more energy than he knows what to do with.
Yeah. He actually does not even know what to do with this energy. When he gets back from work, he wants to keep on working and actually telling us like, don't do that, please. but again, we have to make a corollary that. The workouts and taking care of your body is not just for looking sexy.
It's not just for your health or your physical health. It is for your [00:15:00] health. Yeah. And we'd have water as beef.
Mike: [00:15:04] Yeah, no, that's good. it's funny. I have this like agreement with my brother in law, who we try to keep each other accountable for working out and I'm like, dude, if I ever text you or call you to like, complain about something, you just say, shut up.
Have you went for a run? Have you lifted some weights yet? Yes or no. Go do that. And then let's talk about the issue
Dan: [00:15:22] you have.
Mike: [00:15:23] And it's amazing. It's amazing how well that works.
Dan: [00:15:25] You know what? It's something simple as walking in nature. Right? One of the things that, say one of my clients, actually the same client, he's dude, I am just so stressed.
And then that is where my allergies come in. And right now I'm not feeling as much stress, but it's still there. And I told him, I was like, okay, midday, we're going to take a walk in nature, 15, 20 minutes. You're not going to even touch your phone. And something as simple as that done on an everyday basis, he's telling me that dude, I feel a lot better.
I don't have my allergy symptoms as much, even though he's outside. and I just say [00:16:00] this, like every single time, it's it's not about being Arnold Schwarzenegger. Actually, I don't think the six pack should be the goal for everybody. I don't think aesthetics should be the goal for everybody, although they do count.
They're great. I believe the goal should be again, a brain, enhancing your brain, reducing stress and getting your body to a point of where we feel it is normal enough, or you can live a nice, energetic and healthy life.
Mike: [00:16:28] Boom. That's it. okay. So obviously you work with the high end clients, right? So it's at the average, dad is listening to this.
Maybe they got young kids, maybe they're there they're either their employee or their entrepreneur. what are some practical first steps you say, Hey, wonder what three things they can do tomorrow.
Dan: [00:16:43] So I'll give you four steps. Okay. So these are, this is actually what I call. It sounds so cliche, but it's called the abs sequence.
But if every time, if anyone just. Goes into the sequence. They are going [00:17:00] to get the results that they want. So the first one is going to be a, you need to assess where you are a lot of. Okay. So I always ask this question to fathers entrepreneurs. A lot of people I'm like, okay, so when's the last time you tracked your income?
They're like, I track it. I track it yesterday. I track it daily. So I was, so I put it back to them. Okay. When is the last time you tracked your weight? And then it's like silence.
Mike: [00:17:27] So
Dan: [00:17:27] why do you track a metric or your business? And you don't track a metric for your body? It doesn't make sense. So the first step is to assess where you are.
This means that on the first level, just track your weight on an everyday basis. On the second level, it means getting your measurements done, at least around your chest, your navel, around your hips and at ease. In the level is actually, so I had every single entrepreneur I work with. I get them to do a DEXA scan and a DEXA scan.
what a DEXA scan is. I don't know what that is. Actually.
Mike: [00:17:58] No,
[00:18:00] Dan: [00:18:00] for people that don't know when. When they step on their scales at home and they're getting a body fat percentage or whatever it is completely false. It's completely BS because what they're doing is something called bio impediments.
It's not accurate whatsoever. They're literally doing a measurement based on your weight and and stuff. It's not even anywhere close to being exact. So we know I need the most exact numbers coming back at us. And what a DEXA scan does. Is a DEXA scan is literally a snapshot of your fat and muscle and where you carry this.
So there's a number of like things that we look at, exactly located. So where are you predominantly carrying your body fat? Or a lot of them it's like their chest and not the chest. They actually had their chest and their stomach and we see exactly what. What's called like their Android to Ginder ratio and all this kind of stuff.
I'm not going to get detailed on the numbers, but it gives us a snapshot of what their health is. It's like from a body fat percentage. And personally, for me, I think body fat is one of the main determiners of how long you're going to be [00:19:00] living on this life. You don't need to be like 10%. You don't need to be 8%, but you do need to be at a normal level where you are going to be avoidant of most things, natural diseases.
So for me, to me, that's anywhere between 15 to 19%. All right. that's always the first goal for our clients. So we need to assess where we are. The second thing we need to do is actually find a natural way to burn the fat. So this would be the B from the ad sequence, and you want to find a natural way in which to eat.
So you can actually burn the fat and do so that fits your lifestyle. One of the things that we do with our clients is it's actually something that I don't see a lot of people doing. We have them find what is their natural rhythm of eating at least for fat loss. So a lot of times you're going to hear, you gotta do 1248, or you gotta do two deals a day and you gotta do OMAD or whatever it is, or, Oh man being like one meal a day.
and quite honestly, like all that stuff is overrated to the highest degree. What we do with our clients is [00:20:00] we put them on a very specific schedule that we feel fits their lifestyle, that we feel fits the work-life, especially, and also the life that they live at home. And it has to naturally fit.
If we don't do this upfront, then they're just going to be, pretty much swimming, upstream as we call it. So we put them on the schedule and then yet at the same time we don't leave them. There. We, you go through a seven to 14 day adaption period, and then that is going to tell you what's your true meal schedule looks like.
So it looks like this. If we put a, put someone on a, let's just say a 16, eight diet, 12 o'clock, four o'clock, eight o'clock we've had clients on that come back to us and be like, you know what, Dan, I want to push the first meal a little bit more up. Because I'm not hungry. We've got other clients that say, I need to have food at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock or I'm going to be going crazy.
Yes. And you have other clients who are like, I don't like the second meal. So there is a natural [00:21:00] schedule to how everyone eats that is natural to them, their own biology. And then once you find that we have clients coming back to us and say that, Hey. I'm losing weight. I'm dieting down. I'm eating great, but it doesn't, I'm not hungry.
so what did we have to realize about diet is dieting when you're losing weight is 50%, using the energy that's coming into your body. The other 50% is managing hunger and making sure it fits your actual lifestyle. All right. So that's burn. You want to burn the fat? The next one is built. So this is a, the second be in the ad system.
So is this the third step? A lot of people, especially entrepreneurs, they shoot themselves in the foot when they do diet and they do cardio at the same time, they need it. They try to make the right workouts about burning fat as much as possible, which is the opposite of what a workout should do the workout, especially for guys who are over the age of [00:22:00] 30, 35.
It should be primarily about getting stronger and building muscle. So we do this, we actually incorporate a workout. That's called power building. And depending on your level of expertise, we want to number one, make you strong. Number two, we want to make you look aesthetic and we want to keep as much muscle if not build muscle as much as possible throughout this process.
And I'll give you an example. So we did a DEXA scan for one of my clients. His name is Kyle. He does all the, the commercials for Nike, for TD all this places. And with Kyle, what happened was we dropped about, I think it was like 14 or 15% body fat, which is incredible in the 16 week timeframe, but also we increased his lean mass by a factor.
Of, I believe it was like 19 pounds of lean mass gain. Wow. Now is that little muscle, I don't know. you can't say that you gained 19 pounds of muscle 16 week timeframe. That is almost scientifically like [00:23:00] impossible, but what happened was his basal metabolic rate or his daily kind of like the way that he burns, it increased by a hundred, like a hundred calories.
Wow. That's incredible. So people make the mistake of trying to do cardio. On top of dieting to lose weight. We don't get our clients to do cardio at all, because we have to look at cardio as a stress as well. So when you do cardio, you start to increased cortisol. And for guys who are already like stressed the F out in their businesses and their families, why would you add more stress on top of that?
it is. I don't know. It's irresponsible. Whoever told them to do that. So we have to build muscle and we have to do it in a way that's safe. And I incorporate something that's called power building by, I call it like the lazy man's workout because literally when you get strong and when you're trying to work out for strength, you have to have long rest periods.
So we have clients, someone, some of them are on like three [00:24:00] exercises. That's it per day. And we had them just steady, really increasing their gains on that, the exercises. And that is enough for a lot of people when they're on a fat loss phase. And when it comes to muscle building is completely different.
Now, the last one, which is the S and the abs system it's called sustain, you need to understand sustainability. So everyone thinks that a diet is a lifestyle that is complete horse crap. Okay. Everyone's like a diet lifestyle. It should be a lifestyle I'm like, yeah, you have no clue about what you are even talking about, because that is as the platitude of pump latitude that is based on non education.
It's not even being educated. The thing is like you diet down to get to a lower level of body fat, to get yourself to a normal level of body fat, then you have to understand the other 50%, which is [00:25:00] understanding how to sustain it. So what people think is I just have to diet get myself down to a low weight and that's it.
I'm good. People don't understand that you have to, your body goes through metabolic adaptions, your hormones get affected. When you lose a big amount of weight. When you lose like 30, 40, 50 pounds off, you'd be like, your hormones are going to get jacked left. I don't want to get into like the details of these, but they are going to get jacked.
We have to gently bring you back to what we call. We have to do a diet recovery, and we have to make that we gently bring you back to the amount that you should be eating on a regular basis. So do you know about calories at all?
Mike: [00:25:43] Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. I feel like that's a big point of discussion, especially with
Dan: [00:25:48] it's a big one.
So I'll try to, I'll try to make it simple. It's Obviously you need to be taking in less calories than then you usually take in order to lose weight. And it takes about 3000 [00:26:00] calories to burn off a pound of fat. So when you do this for a long time, when you diet for a long time, and I say long anywhere between 12 to 20 weeks, w this will have a metabolic effect on your body.
If you try to eat the amount of food that you can eat. Okay. off of dieting. You're going to get that because you're, he has to gently get back. So we do something called diet recovery, and then afterwards we focus in on sustaining the weight loss and I, and this is a true stat, only two for some of the people who lose weight are actually able to keep it.
This is actually one of the reasons why I'm very expensive because I ask my clients this all the time. What would it actually cost you? To lose the 50 pounds and never have to worry about it for the rest of your life. And a lot of people are like, it's priceless, whatever it is, It is priceless because only 2% of people are able to do it.
So what we do after we die, recover, [00:27:00] we actually set new goals for each other. And we get maybe a little bit more deeper into muscle building. We do some things like I'm not going to get too deep. And so again, like body re comps and lean bulks and all this kind of stuff, but these are done in order to make sure that you're not always keeping yourself in a fat loss phase, that you understand that there has to be phases for muscle-building and all this kind of stuff.
And also it helps you eat more and it makes the diet. Yeah. Or it makes the eating style more sustainable because you're taking in more food. You're not denying yourself. and that is what the abs system is. Everyone actually took themselves through these four steps. they're not easy, very simple.
If they took themselves through these four steps, they would be a lot farther than what people are doing right now, which is like trying one thing, doing it for 30 days and just getting off of it. Going from one day to another trying every single bad out there,
Mike: [00:27:52] yeah. And that's, I think that's a good point because there's a lot of, there's a lot of, dangerous to getting in that fat loss phase and staying in that longterm.
And then you're [00:28:00] not going to achieve the goals that you have, which is maybe say, Hey, I want to lose weight. Then I want to gain muscle. So then you're screwed that way.
Dan: [00:28:06] Do you mind if I take you through the life cycle of so when someone does like a fad diet, let's just say they do Quito, Or whatever it is. I have nothing against Kito. I have nothing against IVF, but whatever, let's just say they do keto, they lose like 40 pounds. Then they think that keto is going to be the lifestyle that they have to live. So what happens when they have a week? Spot in their life and they're surrounded by carbs and all these foods, what happens when they eat, like one of those things right there, then they're going to gain.
Okay. they do that. They step on the scale. Okay. I gained back a pound that's okay. Yeah, whatever. Okay. And then, okay. The floodgates start to open a little bit. They start to eat a little bit more carbs. They realized that it wasn't part of their lifestyle whatsoever. That carbs are always going to be here.
So could they lose fat in a way that could actually incorporate these carbs, but no, they never learned how to eat carbs in the first [00:29:00] place. So the more carbs at the eat, because it's not sustainable, the more fat they gain and then they're back to where they were at the beginning, but with a worst metabolism with horrible, with pretty much, like I said before, jacked up hormones and a lack of education.
Yeah. And they're like, I just gained back my 40, that actually is even worse than not losing it at all. Because you're all
Mike: [00:29:28] the whole, system's messed up at that point.
Dan: [00:29:29] the whole system is messed up and then they just lose hope because they get there and they're like, I just gained back all this weight.
I did so much. And I took so much effort to get there. Now, gained it back now. Now what do I do? And they try to get back on that diet. It doesn't work as fast for them anymore. And then that's a lot of times that's when they call me or call someone else, but hopefully they call someone that actually knows that body transformation and dieting is a dangerous thing to the body.
It's [00:30:00] dangerous. And you can't, that's the reason I say that all my clients, you can't go Willy nilly into this. You can't do a diet and think you're going to get away. Scot-free. It will have an effect on your body and if you don't do it right, then you're going to be like everyone else. You can be like the 98% that are not able to keep it off.
Mike: [00:30:17] Yeah. Yeah. And then you lose hope and your things are messed up. Yeah.
Dan: [00:30:22] You put, imagine the amount of so I do these calls with my clients. I'm always taking notes, despair. That's all. I that's a lot of what I hear. Cause they think that's always going to be the reality for them, which is false.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike: [00:30:35] Dan, thanks so much, man. I think this was extremely enlightening. I think it's an important topic. I think it's, a timely topic and I appreciate you sharing a lot of the wisdom with my listeners, man.
Dan: [00:30:45] Yeah, dude, this was, this is fun. I hope you send me the recording cause I'm just going to be taking notes of everything.
I see. I don't know. This is you got silly out of me. It was like, this is actually part of the reason for I love Twitter. Because it brings all these thoughts out of me that would have normally been [00:31:00] inside. Exactly.
Mike: [00:31:01] Exactly. Yeah. And that's what people resonate with.
Dan: [00:31:03] yeah. And I appreciate you having me on man.
I appreciate it. I appreciate you being diligent and just keeping them following up and all that kind of stuff too. Yeah. Thanks.
Mike: [00:31:12] So we get, you can find Dan on Twitter at fit. Founder is his username. And then where else can they find you? Dan?
Dan: [00:31:19] They can find me@highperformancefoundr.com. Okay. I haven't even launched the site yet because we're still doing, we're still doing some stuff, but a high performance foundr.com is where you can find me.
That's where I'm going to be doing my articles. That's where I'm going to be doing my podcast and, and yeah, subscribe to the newsletter and can't wait to interact with, with you. Awesome. thanks, Dan. All right. Thank you.
[00:32:00]
Ana joins me to chat about why kids need to be creative ini the classroom
(and at home!). Creativity is the name of the game in many cases. Not only has Ana had experiences that has shown he that kids work best when they are creative but finds that most schools just don't cut it in the creativity department and lack learning that gets kids excited.
Where to find Ana:
- Her YouTube page!
- Her website!
Podcast
Transcription (May contain typos…)
[00:00:00] Ana: [00:00:00] kids are not interested in learning. They're interested in doing, they love creating. They love using their hands. They love exploring things. And again, it's very counterintuitive in school.
They do the opposite, right? Kids are sitting down with you. And they were listening for hours to a lecture. They have little opportunity to really engage in the content that they're learning, quote unquote. and that goes against everything we know about kids, right? Kids are very active kids love to explore.
So giving kids a chance at home to get really like hands on the things that they want to do. [00:01:00]
Mike: [00:01:09]
today on the podcast, I have a very special guest, miss fab, herself on a fiber guy, who is an edge opener, former teacher. but one of the things that she does is she, teachers, I think just really a different way to approach education.
And, I wanted to have her on to hear her a little bit of her story and how she can open up our minds a little bit on how we think about education for our kids. So Ana, thank you so much for being on the
Ana: [00:01:34] show. Thank you, Mike. Thank you for inviting me over. I'm excited to be here.
Mike: [00:01:38] Yeah. obviously a lot going on in the education space, given COVID and anywhere from elementary school, all the way up to higher education, there's a lot of disruption happening as much as I hate to overuse that word.
But, I know on a, you speak a lot on some of those trends that are happening, whether it's micro schools or other things that are Busting into the scene. [00:02:00] And I, one of the things that maybe you could give your background a little bit, the listeners, cause I know you have a teaching background and then we can jump into some of the things that happening.
Ana: [00:02:08] Yeah, sure. I think that's a good idea. My add typical school experience provided a springboard to, me wanting to transform this. so yeah, I was born in Panama, but due to my father's job, we had to relocate Kate a lot when I was a kid. So I was born here, but we moved to Colombia, Venezuela, India, Mexico, Brazil.
We lived in Panama and the U S yes. so by the time I was 14, I had been to. Seven different 10 different schools in seven different countries. And in regions, those specs, I know, realize that. a lot of my wanting to change things comes from what I saw in all this different placements. and it was, it looked pretty much the same, regardless of what school, what type of school, what country would continent the learning experience K through 12 doesn't really change.
and [00:03:00] I had this love for working with kids. I really wanted to be I'm a teacher and being the education space. So I studied childhood education. Special education at NYU. And I have the opportunity to be a student teacher, five different placements there while I was studying. And that was really the first time that I got to see teaching in its purest form and seeing what, they would consider great teachers doing what they do.
And it was evident, that kids were not really engaged. Kids were not really learning in terms of, they're not retaining the information after the tests. they're leaving school without an idea of what they want to do or what they're good at because they have very little opportunities to explore this and to build things and create things.
so I was seeing all these things, even from great teachers and I was wondering, what am I going to do when I have a classroom? So I then became a teacher and I taught in Boston for a year while my husband finished his MBA at a small private school. And I taught first and third grade there. And then I moved to [00:04:00] Panama.
I taught for four years at this big American in schools and I taught third and fourth grade. And that's when it really hit me. I don't really know what I'm doing here cause I love teaching, but I can't really do the things that seems valuable inside the system. I realized that schools worry too much about the specifics of what kids are learning and too little about whether kids are learning at all or the kinds of attitudes that kids hold toward learning.
it was really concerning to me that the kids were just not engaged and they didn't really want to be there. They wanted to leave school so that they could start playing sports and engaging in all this things that they wanted to do. It became evident to me that we're asking the wrong questions, we're making the wrong assumptions.
And the best thing that I could do as a concerned teacher was to just leave and try to find alternatives and start asking those hard questions that are often overlooked. And I realized that this is something that many parents don't consider, because they don't really in part because people tend to [00:05:00] just do what they did when they were kids.
They try to replicate their learning experience. It's easier to play it safe. And they often think, why risk blowing up the system and not just add a little bit to it. And, this resistance to change is precisely why we have this system that we have today. That's how we get stuck with the status quo.
and I know that for you, it's different. I've heard that you've you homeschool your kids and, and that's great. That's one of the trends that I am really inclined toward. and we can talk about that in a bit, but, I really feel like by, I started asking questions. I started, putting different topics out there.
And people started to resonate with my content. And I think that deep inside we can all connect with this child that we were when we were in school and how we did not really enjoy learning when we were in this enclosed space. And considering that there are so many alternatives out there, it's just a matter of being open to them and seeing what really works for your kid and what doesn't.
So that's how I transitioned finally, last year in August. Out of a school system and I started exploring the [00:06:00] alternative education space. And I can talk a little bit about that in a bit yeah. Of what I'm doing now, but mostly I've been just voicing my ideas and I'm trying to talk to people who are interested in different paths and understanding why the system, not every kid is cut out for the system.
so yeah, so that's what I'm. like my background.
Mike: [00:06:20] Yeah, no, thanks you, thank you for that. you went into quite a bit of detail and, hit on quite a few things that we want to discuss. one of which being, the things that you saw, the system that were broken.
I think is important and we're seeing that even now, like the option is going away of in-person schooling, with COVID and that's causing all of these shifts to, remote learning or virtual, or some people are opting for micro schools or they're opting for homeschool.
And one of the, maybe what, where we can start is, I'd really like to hear. what are some things, my audience is primarily dads. so there may be less involved than the moms and the education [00:07:00] side. whether that's a good or bad thing, I don't know, but it's so w one of the things is that, how, w how can they think about their kid's education, particularly like younger kids, as they're in elementary age and.
How can they foster that love of learning? I think that's the underlying desire that most parents would have obviously. And what are the things that they can do, in the home, on the home side, or, what should they be tuning into when it comes to their younger children, as they're getting on the, on ramp to learning and where they would start traditional education,
Ana: [00:07:33] Yeah. so one of the, one of the first things that I would say that I realized teaching is that. You can't force kids to learn. and they, you can try, but they're not going to learn. They're going to forget that content. Trying to shift that ownership where they're learning and give it to them and saying, what do you want to learn about what are you interested in?
Cause I find that when you start with the kids interest and what they are enjoying at the [00:08:00] moment, then that's where content starts to stick. And that's when they are, they start to get sense. Cited to learn different things. so for a kid to learn, the kid has to be excited, right? The kid needs to see the relevance or needs to see the direct application to their lives of what they're learning in school.
They have little opportunity for this, but at home, parents can start that waste, tuning in, into their interest. Also kids are not interested in learning. They're interested in doing, they love creating. They love using their hands. They love exploring things. And again, it's very counterintuitive in school.
They do the opposite, right? Kids are sitting down with you. And they were listening for hours to a lecture. They have little opportunity to really engage in the content that they're learning, quote unquote. and that goes against everything we know about kids, right? Kids are very active kids love to explore.
So giving kids a chance at home to get really like hands on the things that they want to do. and nowadays, before teachers were like the fountain of wisdom, and they had to impart all the knowledge and that's where you would go to learn. But now the knowledge everything's [00:09:00] available online.
And so helping kids navigate the internet and seeing this through YouTube and different platforms, the things that they want to learn about and do it, in a supervised way. but really let them dig in to that. And then not only consume the information, but okay. Now what are you going to do with what you just learned?
And nowadays share different videos in my YouTube about this, of all the things that kids can do and create with a computer and with the things that they have at home. And especially, in a digital age where we're all moving toward that direction, having kids create content online, I think is a great idea.
teaching them, how to create catchy content and how to distribute it, how to. Presented their ideas in compelling ways. starting to blog or thinking about products, development, or, this kind of things and design and podcast and yeah, editing. These are all things that kids are interested in from what I've seen and that it's going to be really useful and it's way to apply the things.
They can start learning things on their own and applying [00:10:00] them. Through this kind of like modern making. so that's one thing that I would definitely encourage parents to try out at home, starting with their interest and helping them navigate the web and create and produce different things. but also, especially now that kids are not in school and they're not having those interactions with their peers, finding different, Online networks and social networks out there for kids to connect and share the things that they're learning and the things that they're creating.
I think it's extremely important. so that's an opportunity that I see in this space for different platforms for kids to connect and make friends and share the different things that they're learning online.
Mike: [00:10:38] Yeah. that's an interesting topic. I think one that. can get, not charged, but I think opinionated about when to introduce your kids to technology, and then when to.
Specifically like net, social networks. So that sort of thing, because there's some harmful dynamics of social networks specifically. so what are some of your comments on that? if someone's that's great. And I'm like, I see what you're [00:11:00] saying, but, I don't want to expose my kids and get them sucked into technology too early, because they're going to get sucked into social media or they're not gonna, maybe learn as well.
w what does the, what do you do say to some of that pushback?
Ana: [00:11:12] that's an interesting question. And I actually get that asked a lot and honestly, I'm the kind of person that thinks, this is where right. We're heading anyway. And especially now with all this remote life we're living, kids are going to head to that direction anyways.
So my, what my thinking is, why not? Be us, the teachers and the mentors to expose them to this. And, keeping in mind all the parameters and the things that they should do, then they shouldn't do teach them about internet safety and you be the guide. And this is something that we can do. We don't need to be a teacher.
We don't need any certification. Like this is something that any parent with knowledge of how to use a computer and the internet and has intuition, can walk their kids through this. And. I think it's about creating a positive relationship with the internet. And with [00:12:00] content creation and be the people who show them how to do this the right way.
and actually this is an area that I'm exploring myself, as I am exploring online education for kids, not remote learning online education, which is different from what we're experiencing right now with schools going online. And by that,
Mike: [00:12:18] I like to, I'd to dig into that a little bit.
What do you mean by
Ana: [00:12:21] that? Yeah. Yeah. Cause, a lot of people are confused, confusing, online learning with remote learning. So online learning typically involves a curriculum that was specifically designed for that purpose with a virtual audience in mind and the interactions and the technologies used are built for that purpose.
Remote learning on the other hand. Yeah. And the way that, many of us are currently experiencing it is a reactionary experience, right? So it was an emergency. We all had to go right from one day to the other online. And kids are just trying to replicate the in schooling experience in a virtual environment, which is mostly why does it work?
They're trying to adapt the in [00:13:00] person face to face courses that they have. Historically relied on and just modify them for a virtual remote audience. And the problem about this is if kids were not engaged, sitting in a classroom, looking at a teacher, would their peers around them? of course, they're not going to be engaged, sitting in a chair, looking at a screen for hours and seeing a teacher talk.
So to me, the way that they're, that were that we're like doing that. It's not the right way actually, for kids, maybe for adults, it may work better, but for kids, I think that we're using the space incorrectly. We should be. Using the online space to interact, to share ideas, maybe the flipped classroom approach, where kids watch a video in the afternoon or learn about certain topic.
And then when they joined the zoom calls or whatever it is, the platform that the teachers use, it's a moment to share their creations and to socialize with the other kids. And, that's what I believe that the space should be used for not to just listen passively to lectures. so that's a big thing that I've noticed.
And in part why it's not [00:14:00] working. but when going back to what we were talking about, I feel like the more, and again, this is something that parents don't need to be teachers for. They can start using the space correctly, and having their kids engage with other kids online in this platforms, but in a supervised way.
Mike: [00:14:17] Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think, it's analogous to talking about remote work versus like people that weren't. Remote to begin with where they're forced into it with quarantine and COVID right. they're like, this is not work from home. Like work from home is not a remote work setup because it wasn't designed to be remote first.
You're being thrust into just working from home or normally all your systems and everything were geared around in person interactions and in person meetings. And that causes a bunch of chaos in the workplace. I think the same thing's happening with schooling and. And it's being convoluted with, Oh, we can it's remote learning and or remote learning or virtual learning doesn't work because this is all chaos because all these kids can't learn on zoom calls and it's I hear you saying, he's it's not the same [00:15:00] thing, actually.
Ana: [00:15:01] exactly. And there's a lot of opportunity for, to create different platforms that are more engaging and it's more conductive to learning. Zoom is not optimal for that right now, but I really believe that different things are going to start coming up that make this whole experience easier and more, more appealing to kids.
Mike: [00:15:19] Yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing I heard you say is, you talk about, connecting with your peers around interests, which I think is really fascinating because it's, then there's intrinsic motivation around a topic or a project or something of that nature. And, maybe, how can.
maybe parents, help with that, or what are some of the resources that you see out there that are helping with this? I think you said that you see this as an opportunity, so there's probably not a ton that are existing right now, but
Ana: [00:15:48] yeah. So I'm going to tell you first on something that I'm working on, and then I'll just touch upon a few things that I've seen on the space.
So one of the things that I started when I left teaching, I'm working on building an [00:16:00] online course for kids. and it's focused on project based learning. So rather than transmitting information and teaching students to pass the test or, for the transcript or whatever, which is what I used to do in school.
Cool. I wanted to take a step back and instead help kids. Identify questions or topics that interest them and what problems they want to solve and give them a virtual space to take those questions in whatever direction that they find and guiding them in creating and making and inventing, right? The responses and solutions that deepen their understanding or that contribute in some way to the world.
We did a pilot program. And I did this with my co founder, David PRL and we called it Rite of passage, summer camp, which was based on a course, an online course that I took I'm with him on modern writing. And what we saw in a week that we did the pilot is that. The kids were really engaged.
They all came in and they were at first skeptical that we were telling them [00:17:00] that they could choose the problem that they wanted to work on. They're not really used to this in school. so they all picked really interesting problems. And I'm talking about kids ranging from eight to 12 and they all picked interesting problems.
To them that they wanted to solve real problems. They all digged into the things that interest them found skills that they could match to help them come up with a prototype to solve their problems. And they did this all in a week and they presented the last day, their prototypes. And what we realized was, again, we use the space differently.
So the kids were, even though they're all zoomed out and they don't want to know about zoom because they related, they associated with what they're doing. Right now at home with online learning, which is busy work and just, they're not into that, but they were really into this experience because they were not listening to me.
Cause I was barely talking. They were all using their hands in the materials that they had. They were creating. Then they would go into breakout groups. They would share them, they would get feedback. They would go back. So they weren't really. On top of their learning and they were the ones doing and creating, [00:18:00] and they learned so many things in just one week, but not in the traditional way that we would think they're learning.
and it was just really interesting to see that, and I'm working on this idea to see how can we scale this so that more kids can join this class. without losing that personalized touch, we were, it was 15 kids, but what I'm trying to say is this kind of. Let's call it like a maker's camp is the kind of learning opportunities that I feel like parents could be seeking for their kids right now, whether it is that they're, they are going through a more traditional path with their schools.
this could be a compliment. So I know, and I started to look to see who was doing similar things in this space. And I started to see a bunch of, apprenticeship programs for younger kids where they're like starting to pick ACE. Specialization, which I think is great. I've seen some, innovation online schools that are focused on kids creating and turning kids into entrepreneurs.
I've seen bootcamps that give kids tangible skills to unlock, possible career paths that they may want. So there [00:19:00] are many things out there it's a matter of just going in and looking for one that is interesting for your kid and that matches your interest or whatever it is that you want to compliment.
But I feel like. Finding those interest based boot camps or programs or online virtual spaces is a great way to get them excited about this kind of learning, which is a lot more personal. Yeah.
Mike: [00:19:26] Yeah, no, I think that's really cool. I, I. I've seen his Rite of passage, cohort, PA course that David does.
And I think I saw a little bit about what you guys are doing with the camp thing. and that sounds really interesting. And I think doing it in a, a week long, it's not overly long, but as long enough for them to really dig in is really fascinating. And is when you said that it's a compliment to maybe what other, if they're involved in other school or they're homeschooling or whatever.
You said that was a compliment to that. And I'd like to hear what you think about that as [00:20:00] a, it seems to me what's emerging here is there's a trend to parents. taking more ownership of their children's education towards maybe they would do more, wholesale just outsource it to the school, whether it's a public or even a private school.
And now COVID is flip that on its head. and I think it's a net positive where parents are assuming more responsibility. do you see that as there's going to be a roll your own type, approach where. It's going to be somewhere in the spectrum of full, just homeschool, a homeschool curriculum too, between that.
And like juditional school where somewhere in the middle where they're like picking and choosing, maybe there's like a hybrid type model, of these resources like yours and others that are out there where they're tailoring it to, how the learning style is of the child or maybe the interests or the speed or whatever pace they're going at.
Ana: [00:20:52] Yeah. So I think that. Since COVID many families have started to realized how [00:21:00] well homeschooling is. Way more tailored to their kids' needs and that many of their kids are learning a lot faster than they did in school. And they're a lot happier and excited about learning. And of course, I'm not talking about everyone because there have been some people that did not have a positive experience with this remote learning that happened recently.
But for those that were able to do it correctly, they realize this. So definitely we're seeing more informal homeschooling. Pods and like micro schools popping up, families that have similar interests and they, get together five to 10 kids and they learn together. They either have a parent that is in charge of this, or they hire a tutor.
But with this kind of flexible, schooling alternatives, you open up space to add components. For example, you can add an online course from. There's different platforms or online schools like out school that are out there. You can also add a program. Like the one that I did just said that would be an hour and a half a day. [00:22:00]
and there are different things that you can add to the schedule that. Form the education of your kid. And again, it's, you have to be very open minded. Cause many people think, there's, if I'm not following a curriculum and a set of standards and my kid doesn't take a test at the end of the year, how will I know they're not learning, but actually there's a lot of research and we've seen that's not necessarily true.
and you can actually have your kid learn a whole lot and be more prepared than schools are actually preparing them by forming your own schedule with the things that I'm talking about right now. With a micro school or with a homeschooling setup. and I really think that the, if I had kids right now, I would be setting up a micro school and I would be having them learn from platforms like YouTube, where they're doing their serve, learning, like self learning component.
Then I would have them. Work on this different things with the kids that they're in within the micro schools, I would have them join an online community where they can start sharing the things that they're creating. I would have them join maybe like a specific class that they are interested in or [00:23:00] that they need to learn and about with one of these online programs.
So you can form. The schedule of your kids, adding from all this components and different programs that are emerging in this space that I find really valuable. So I think that's going to start, being an alternative, but also there's some people who, as we know, the K through 12 schools also works as a daycare.
Many parents have to work and they, at least for a number of hours and they can not have their kids home all day. So for those parents that cannot pull their kids out of school or that don't want to, then they can compliment with this kind of things that I'm saying.
Mike: [00:23:33] Yeah, definitely. I think that's also the dynamic that's at play where it's okay, maybe I have two, two working parents.
And so you have, there's a childcare aspect to it, but I think that's the interesting thing that kind of has to do with covert. It's a lot of people were talking about just the childcare aspect of schooling and it's there's this whole education aspect. It's almost like they weren't even talking.
Yeah. But, Yeah, no, I th I think the, all of a sudden you put out there is, is I think very much in flux. And I think there's going to be so [00:24:00] much change over the next, obviously this whole school year, but, being that the school year is just starting and people are making these decisions on what to do.
You're going to have a ton of, New things popping up that are going to meet that need. And I think that's extremely exciting, Cause I think it's a net positive overall, like even parents that are maybe keeping their kids in school, they're seeing all of this and maybe starting to even work in some of these complimentary things and seeing, Oh, there's, there could be a different approach to how my child learns and maybe they were experiencing some behavioral issues just because they don't learn in that style, And they that's causing downstream effects and. I think that's a good net positive overall. So
Ana: [00:24:38] absolutely. I've been receiving a lot of emails, of parents just sharing what they've noticed that their kids are doing at home since COVID happened. And, since I talk a lot about this things and I send a newsletter when people reply to me saying, you're right, I started to notice my kid is extremely creative.
They've started to do this and this which they had. I had no idea that they were good at this. [00:25:00] I don't know a specific thing and they're creating this and they're certainly excited and they're looking forward to doing something every day that they weren't before. And hopefully more parents start to realize that when kids are starting to behave this way and starting to crave, doing something and getting excited, then you need to really hold onto that because that means that they are learning.
And that means that their time is being used productively. So finding, more trying to create more of those moments. Yeah. The kids are excited to learn about something, whether it is academic or not necessarily academic, but, focus on those things. And now has been a good time to see that, to see kids tuning into passions and interests that maybe they didn't have time to before.
Mike: [00:25:44] Yeah. I want to thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate you being on the show and really, sharing with the audit, my audience, just, what other options are out there, what you're doing to push that envelope with the best interest of the student and the child in mind, and how they learn.
so thank [00:26:00] you. And I appreciate you being
Ana: [00:26:01] on. Thank you so much, Mike. It was great being here
Is most of what you know about nutrition and fitness wrong? I chat with Soren Harrison about fitness and his journey from tech to his current mission to make dads fit again.
Interest in homeschool is booming right now with the COVID pandemic disrupting traditional education. One of the bigger players in the homeschool game is Classical Conversations, a family operations which has been around for a few decades. Robert Bortins is second generation and now running the business. We talk about what “classical education” is and what is happening in the education space.
Austen wasn't happy with school, there wasn't something that quite fit him and he saw a lot of options that weren't practical for a 18-22 year old. He saw a huge gap in education, but also in the ever changing landscape oof education. That is where Lambda school was born. Austen talks about what it is like being a dad while building and education system that is ever changing and growing.
Tanner joins me on the podcast to talk about why being a fashionable dad actually matters. I was skeptical at first, but after listening to Tanner shed light on the topic I get it. Being a fashionable dad not only helps you look and feel better but also helps your kids, family, and friends see that you are intentionally making an effort to work to become the better version of yourself.
What is the future of education? Interested in homeschool? These are some of the topics we cover with Ryan Delk.
Ryan Delk is the founder and CEO of Primer (https://www.withprimer.com/) Ryan can be found on twitter at https://twitter.com/delk
Ed Latimore talks masculinity and the current state of mental toughness. Ed is a former professional boxer and writer. He can be found on twitter at https://twitter.com/EdLatimore His website is https://edlatimore.com/
Steli Efti is the Founder & CEO of Close.com
Steli on Twitter https://twitter.com/Steli/photo
Steli's podcast https://thestartupchat.com/
Close https://close.com/
Shownotes:
(Content has been summarized and paraphrased. Time stamps are approximate.)
:30
Mike Sudyk:
- Aaron is a coach to high growth companies
- Started out building the team at salesforce
- Father of 9 with a blended family, wife’s kids from a previous marriage, adopted kids, kids together with your wife.
Aaron Ross:
Yeah, it’s a little bit of everything.
1:20
MS:
You’re doing unscripted parenting videos on LinkedIn. Can you talk about how you manage the chaos. I ask because you mention systems in your videos. What do you say to someone who asks, “How do you do that?”
AR:
- Got married 8 years ago. Went form zero to nine kids in 6 years.
- Published 4 books.
- Grew my income from 72k a year to 800k a year
- Grew a business of a few million dollars
- How do I do it? I’m not really sure…it’s day by day. Trying to advance things when I can.
- Doing a book is a big project, and the only way to do it on top of a family is that I committed to it, I told people I was going to do it, got a partner, got a publisher, dates announced…and then I had to do it.
- A lot of it comes down to blocking out time. For a book I blocked out time every Wednesday. It took a couple years to do a whole new book.
- We did separate things to grow income, separate systems to control chores. Calendars.
- Systems are always evolving—chores, allowances, calendars.
- We can talk about things that work, but parenting is messy. Whatever people project to the outside world, it’s messy. No matter what gurus say.
6:00
MS:
Sometimes people take that to the extreme and bring nature vs. nurture into it. Saying, my kids are just this way…
AR:
- It’s probably 50/50
- We’ve got biological kids who are teenagers and younger. We’ve adopted kids as teenagers and younger.
- We have all this variety, and there are things that people are born with, but generally most of the impact that you see while they are kids…nurture makes such a huge difference.
- If you have more of an aggressive parenting style or a pleaser parenting style…you can see the difference.
- I think my wife and I are better parents because we identify the things we don’t do well and try to become better.
9:10
MS:
How do you guys work on your marriage in the midst of all that?
AR:
- I’ve seen this in studies where people after they have kids, you’ll be unhappier in general…you’ll go through a phase where you need to work on the romantic part.
- You need to invest in your relationship
- One thing that was important, one of them was making a lot more money. Making more money makes the relationship work better and takes a lot of the stress away.
- We do a once a week date night. When we skip it we can tell there’s more of a roommate feeling.
- I’m active as a father. I work at the business 20 hours a week, and the rest is just fathering.
- My wife is a writer, so she has her own work.
- Sometimes it’s smoother and sometimes it’s hard to handle.
- When I’m working to make money, to support the family, that’s still family time. But if family life is difficult at home, I can see why you’d stay at the office more. So what are the reasons you’re working?
13:00
MS:
Is part of it learning to accept the chaos as a new normal?
AR:
- It’s like the messy rooms. It takes too much work to have them clean all the time. Pick your battles.
- Some people are more comfortable with chaos than others. In our family we have some systems and plans…we realize a lot of times there are interruptions. You just have to go with the flow.
- But you do need to identify the chaos you don’t need. Our chore system works well. Assign jobs.
- People hate chores, and that’s ok. It’s got to get done, so you’ve got to do it. If you don’t do it, there are consequences.
- Too much structure became unmanageable, too little left them frustrated.
19:30
MS:
When do you and your wife have those discussions?
AR:
- I would love to have a weekly meeting with the teenagers, but there’s always stuff that comes up in the time slot. It always seems like it’s just out of reach.
- My wife and I try not to talk about family business when we’re out on our date. We might talk about it in the car, but then it’s got to stop when we get there.
22:00
MS:
Those dates could turn into talking about the kids the whole time…
AR:
- Yeah, each kids has their challenges…it could go on forever. It can steal the attention away from the romantic relationship.
- Somedays the only things I look forward to are bed, or coffee treats, or our date…
- I have all the pieces in front of me to have this amazing life, but sometimes it’s stressful. More moving pieces means more challenges can pop up, though.
- The nature of entrepreneurship is that you’re always problem solving. Parenting has problems with more emotional weight.
- It just seems normal now.
- Plus we’re moving the family to Scotland this year, because we don’t have enough to do.
26:07
AR:
- We wanted to be someplace closer to nature. Different from LA.
- We’re waiting to deal with houses and visa, not to mention taxes and healthcare.
- thinking about the question, “How do you do it?” We don’t just talk about things, we do it. Whether it feels impossible or not.
27:30
MS:
Dan Martell was just on the show, and he’s big on naming family values. Do you guys do any of that?
AR:
- That makes so much sense, but no, we don’t put that down in words.
- For teenagers it’s a little more realistic, for little kids maybe not.
- Most parenting books never worked for me. There’s one called One, Two, Three. That was good…but copy/paste doesn’t work for us. Some other way might work for us...
- Our kids would probably say that our family is a crazy family. We’re late. We’re fun.
- It might be interesting for us to ask the kids to describe our family.
MS:
From a company perspective, you can identify a thing that is already true and naming it enforces it.
AR:
- We are not a clean and well organized machine
- They all want things to be “fair.” So we’re trying to teach the difference between “fair” and “serving your own self interest.”
- Some kids need more discipline and more love, and you try to balance both.
34:00
MS:
Anything else you want to add?
AR:
- It’s ok to work more to make more money to support your family.
- Finding a partner helps. It’s hard to do things alone.
- I nailed my niche and went back to that after straying, but it’s where I could make the most money.
- Whether you feel like you want to do it or not, what are you best at and known for? That’s the easiest place to make more money. You can always find a way to make it more enjoyable.
Keywords:
- Fatherhood
- Systems
- Chaos
- Date Night
- Nature/Nurture
Where to find JD:
- Website
- Simple Focus
Shownotes
(Content is summarized and paraphrased. Timestamps are approximate.)
00:20
JD Graffam:
- One of my boys doesn’t pee a lot
- One kid who’s really physical, and doesn’t want junk food. He wants salad and grilled chicken.
- The other kid only wants club crackers.
- The healthier kid pees like a racehorse
Mike Sudyk
You are a father of three, and a father to a ton of different companies. Tell me about yourself and Simple Focus.
JD:
- I started Simple Focus in 2009 because I had been moonlighting as a designer since college in 2000.
- I had a good day job, but I was making more money moonlighting than at my day job.
- It made more sense for me to leave. I had always wanted to be a business owner.
- I was fortunate that the business made money
- Now Simple Focus is a user experience firm, and also has a portfolio of SASS businesses. I also have various other business investments.
- Ten years later I have 11 different companies under Simple Focus and three kids.
6:30
MS:
So what are your kids ages?
JD:
Daughter in Kindergarten who is 6, and twin boys who are 4.5
MS:
Having those kids while you’re building your business, tell me about that, about the risk.
JD:
- I’m probably more courageous now with experience
- Someone asked if I would go back and do it all over again, and I said yes. If it were still ten years ago.
- Before I started my company an entrepreneurial person gave me some advice. He said you don’t have a family, and now’s the time that you can take a risk.
- You’re either born with a bug to be an entrepreneur or you’re not. If your kids need to see you take chances, then need to see their father be willing to compete. If it doesn’t work out, they need to see what it’s like.
- I don’t buy that early advice so much anymore…
MS:
The other risk is you have regret later.
JD:
- Sure, but zoom out and make it about more than just you.
- My father always has these great ideas, and he has an itch, but he and I are cut from a different cloth.
- Now he has a lot of “what if?”
- If you’re the kind of person who’s like, I’m going to do this or I’m not going to feel like I did everything I could. It’s also about setting the example for your children so they can see you chasing after your dreams.
- I’m assertive with my entrepreneurial spirit, but I’m also doing it for my dad.
13:00
MS:
When you talk about regret and fulfillment, I think that makes you a better dad and husband. If you’re full of “what ifs” you’re not operating at the efficiency you should be, and that’s going to cascade into other things…
JD:
- About a year ago we had to let some people go to save some costs in the business…and it was tough. I had to lay off my mother-in-law
- when the kids learn about this one day, we need to tell the truth and tell them business was tough.
- Those are important stories for them to have as reference points in their own careers.
- Because I was so careful about doing things the right way, I was able to go home at the end of the day and be present. I could leave work at work.
18:00
MS:
What are some times where you’ve seen those things out of balance? What are the pitfalls?
JD:
- I talk to my therapist about that regularly.
- I can lose my cool and grab my kid by the arm too hard, or raise my voice, and I feel terrible about those moments.
- The thing that gives me hope is something my therapist shared…she asked about what about when my parents did stuff like that? I asked my dad about those moments when he felt bad…my therapist said that kids are resilient, and you have to be consistent and show them love. Some of these moments will standout more to you than to the child.
- If you don’t show the step of conflict resolution, then they won’t understand that step.
- Not being perfect is ok, but they need to know for later in their lives how to resolve conflict with other people in their lives.
24:00
MS:
My wife’s parents were a little better at that than mine were, and recognize that in myself. My wife taught me to be able to resolve some of those conflicts.
JD:
- It’s important for the kids to be able to understand that it’s not about them.
- I’m 37 years old and I’m still trying to learn that with other people…if they snap it’s probably not about me.
27:30
MS:
You mentioned therapy, I wonder if you were reluctant to doing that at first…
JD:
- I’ve been going for 6 or 7 years now consistently every week and every other week when I’m in town.
- She asked me one time, “How do you feel about that?” And I said, “angry.” She told me it didn’t sound like anger. I said I was upset, and she said that wasn’t a feeling, how do you feel? She ended up showing me a chart of basic feelings. She helped me pinpoint my feeling. And suddenly I realized I was unable to articulate my feelings.
- You may not know as much about how you feel as you think you do. If you can’t articulate them, you can’t process them.
- Therapy helps me in business because I can learn from the way my therapist helps me.
- I also take care of my body in other ways, but I was also talking to my therapist about this feeling in my chest that was anxiety. My blood pressure had been affecting my brain.
37:00
MS:
Could you talk about mentors you’ve had along the way, and any key principles that have stuck with you?
JD:
- My business mentor has given me some good nuggets over the years.
- Sit up straight at the desk…
- Running a business is more common sense than you would think.
- When you’ve got a chance to get investment money from someone, get as much as you can.
- As a father, the best advice was what people say about really good doctors. Sometimes when you’re in the waiting room you’re frustrated that the doctor isn’t showing up. But when you’re in the room you’re the only person in the world. It’s about showing up and mindfulness.
Keywords
- Fatherhood
- Therapy
- Mentors
- Failure
- What if
- Conflict resolution
Where you can find Dan:
- danmartell.com
Shownotes
(Content is summarized and paraphrases. Timestamps are approximate.)
Mike Sudyk:
Dan Martell,
- Multiple entrepreneur
- Multiple exits
- Celebrity of SAAS
1:00
Mike Sudyk:
You’re married with two kids
Dan Martell:
- Yes 6 and 7. They’re my world and my wife is my best friend.
- We live a crazy life
MS:
If you follow Dan on instagram you’ll know his kids do everything with him.
DM:
- Board meetings
- Kite boarding
- Car racing
- 100 flights at this point in there life
- Multiple schools, because we travel a lot
2:00
MS:
How did you arrive at that? Tell me about your upbringing. On your website you list all your failures instead of pounding your chest about your successes…
DM:
- Yeah I call that success theater, that’s just not me.
- I’m an open book, and I’m a product of a ton of incredible people who support me.
- At 17 I found myself high and drunk driving a stolen car, trying to get away from the police, and with a gun sitting next to me. If the police caught me I was going to pull the gun so that they’d shoot me. They caught up with me, but the gun got stuck in my bag. They pulled me from the car. I woke up sober in a jail cell wondering what my life was going to look like.
- Served 5-6 months. Did rehab. Spent 11 months in a 6 month program. Spent a lot of time working on myself, and my values, and learning to love myself and having any level of self worth. It saved my life.
- At rehab I discovered JAVA.
- I got fascinated with computers. Computers became my addiction, and entrepreneurship my personal development program.
- I’ve built 5 businesses since then.
- It’s been a slow change.
- For 15 years I didn’t tell a soul what I had gone through as a kid. I did a talk about the entrepreneurial journey, and started with that story. It was the most amazing experience after to have people I knew come up to me and share their thing. Afterwards I thought, I want that openness with everybody.
7:00
MS:
I’ve heard your story a few places. My question is, the journey you went on…a lot of entrepreneur dads feel like they’re stretched in a million directions and feel like they’re hitting a breaking point. It’s not ever bad enough where they make a drastic change. What are some things, having gone through that journey, what are the fundamental things you have to change to get out of the valley?
DM:
- There’s different things at different stages.
- When I was 28 I came home one day, and my fiancé at the time broke up with me because I was working too much in the name of success for her. But she never asked me for any of that.
- Your kids and your wife never asked you to kill yourself working.
- Here was my problem: if i’m so good in business, how am I so stupid in relationships?
- So I asked myself, “Who do I need to become to achieve the next level of outcome?”
- I mapped out who would be the perfect person for me, and what kind of person would attract that quality.
- The process of being successful can apply to any aspect of your life.
- I do quarterly board meetings with each of my boys, an idea I got from my buddy Jim in The Family Board Meeting
- Me and my wife do quarterly retreats where we discuss goals
- Me and my wife do a weekly meeting where we score ourselves on 5 different dimensions, and if we don’t do well enough we need to reevaluate.
- It’s all the same as a business.
- Do you ever run into scenarios where you’ve got something to talk to your wife about, and there’s never a good time and it’s going to piss her off? We have a time and place for that now.
- These times help us reconnect
17:00
- We have a playbook for our family
- We have people who support us, and we have processes for when we go on vacation, or starting at a new school.
18:00
MS:
What do you think the processes are for that? For some reason we don’t bring business processes into our marriage.
DM:
- I think there’s a belief that it shouldn’t be so hard. If I need to schedule a weekly meeting with my spouse it means something is wrong…
- You need to build habits. Being an athlete, being in a marriage.
- If you want to have a life of mediocrity, fine, if you want to see if there’s another level, then go there.
- I coach ambitious entrepreneurs, and there’s this problem they often have where they’re growing and their partner is not.
- As you climb the mountain you’re going to want to pull your partner with you, but they may not be there yet. You’re going to suffocate the relationship if you try to pull them up. They’ll feel inadequate. Instead of pulling them, support them.
- It’s just the discipline of saying one night a quarter, we’re going to turn off our phones and spend time together.
- People throw up a resource complaint issue, but you can scale anything back to make it work.
22:00
MS:
We do a family night once a week, and we keep it religiously. It’s not rocket science.
DM:
- I’m not a fan of holidays or the world’s rhythm for life. I am a fan of rituals. Let’s make it our own.
- When the kid turns 13, what’s the adventure I bring them on that signals the transition from boyhood to manhood?
- How can I be the best father out there?
MS:
We did a ten-year-old trip with my dad. It wasn’t rocket science, it was a Sudyk thing.
DM:
- That’s so cool. There’s an opportunity to change…my dad is one of my best friends today. I put my parents through shit. It wasn’t easy, but no pressure no diamonds. I wouldn’t change anything.
MS:
But you being around, how are you not spoiling your kids?
DM
- LeBron James says, “I don’t want the best for my kids, I want the best from my kids.”
- We don’t buy our kids toys. They earn it.
- I would change some things, like the verbal and emotional abuse I received growing up.
- I believe that chaos shapes us. Obstacle is the way. I was worried that my kids would grow up soft.
- If you let the world interact on your child, there’s enough chaos.
- When your kid is old enough to learn how to zip their jacket and tie their shoe, you are never doing that for them ever again. My kids eat their meals and clean up their plates.
- I’m not here to be their best friend. I’m here to be an example of what it means to be a great human being.
30:00
- What does it mean to be a Martell…they’ve been hearing me ask that question since they were two.
- We do hard things, we have a growth mindset, we give to others, we are always kind…
- In these moments of challenges, I just say what does it mean to be a Martell, and I don’t have to tell them what to do next.
- Every person is going to have their issues, I would just hope that my approach doesn’t create too many of those. I’m trying to give them the tools to know that when life gets hard, get around the people who support you.
32:00
MS:
The family identity thing is huge. Like core values within the professional world. But beyond that their identity is shaped by the world, which doesn’t have their best interest in mind. The concept of identity is huge even as an adult.
DM
- I coach ambitious high performing guys. We ask, what kind of person would achieve the results they want. Once we do that, their morning mantra is I am ________.” Your outward ambition has to start in your mind.
- That’s why I love CrossFit. If you compete everyday, you’re an athlete. If you can stick with it, it has incredible impact on your life.
- People come to me because stye built big companies, but they know they’re not the best leader. They’re either going to have their team quit, or they’ll be fired by the board.
- Even Steve Jobs got kicked out. He changed his approach, and came back.
- It’s like, a vegan doesn’t need willpower to not eat meat everyday. Because they’re vegan. It’s identity.
- You create an alter ego to get a result, and one day you wake up and that’s just who you are.
- I’m not going to be the same person a year from now as I was today. I’m not the same guy I was a year ago. I’m not the same guy I was at 17.
- If you believe that your IQ is fixed, that’s just not true.
- It’s not faking it, you just have to wait for the world to catch up to who you believe you are.
39:00
MS:
And it all stems from identity and identifying where you want to go.
DM:
- Your history does not predict your future. Which is great news.
- When I was 34, it occurred to me that in the previous 10 years I became a millionaire, exited the business, invested in 32 companies, built 2 venture backed companies, and exited those.
- At 24 I never would have believed that would happen.
42:00
MS:
You wouldn’t have dreamed when you were 24, but what set you off?
DM:
- It was the growth mindset, and hundreds of other things.
- Once your belief system expands, you can’t contract.
- We live in the middle of nowhere Canada, but I can be here and still work on billion dollar ideas.
- Everybody out in this town think I’m weird because I’m intense. They’re uncomfortable with me because they know my expectations for myself are so high, but I don’t judge them. There’s no judgement there.
- You can be both ambitious and empathetic, and have big dreams.
Keywords
- Fatherhood
- Quarterly retreats
- Entrepreneurial journey
- Ambition
- Empathy
- Family Values
- Identity
- Goals
- Family night
- Growing up years
- Travel with young kids
- Marriage, counseling
Where to find Jim:
- Personal Website
- The Family Board Meeting (Amazon)
Shownotes
Mike Sudyk:
Jim Sheils is the author of The Family Board Meeting. Tell us what the concept of The Family Board Meeting is all about.
Jim Sheils:
It’s a simple rhythm that I’ve added to my family life to make sure as I started with my business, that I stayed connected with my family.
MS:
How did you reach that moment of getting started?
JS:
- It got started before I had a family. I saw things in business that I didn’t like to see. People I admired whose lives were in shambles. I said that’s not going to be me.
- When I started my family - 2 biological and 2 adopted children - I wanted to be sure I was there for them.
- It all started with “quality time coupons”
- Now it’s been around for 7 years.
3:00
MS:
Tell me about those moments you were asked to talk to people’s kids.
JS
- When I would speak on stage, I was in my mid 20s but I still looked very young. I was at that between age, and parents told me they wished their kids had been there to hear me talk.
- A few families would come visit me at a time, and we started doing retreats. Then I got hired by a few organizations to do workshops.
- People needed someway to connect at home, and that’s what my focus became.
MS:
Sometimes you hear if your life at home is good, work will be good too.
JS:
- There are two dominating emotions within these people: guilt and depression.
- There is no possible way you can do your personal or professional best if you have an overbearing feeling of guilt and depression.
6:00
MS:
I was reading about this pizza Fridays concept…
JS:
- My family strategy is this: my kids are my most important clients and investors. For big companies you have quarterly board meetings, so I said I’m going to start doing that with my kids.
- Every quarter I do that one-on-one with my kids.
- I wanted to make sure one of these a year we incorporated service and contribution.
- This teaches kids to appreciate what they have.
- Our last one-on-ones of the year, we do a service project—and now we do pizza parties for homeless people.
- It’s a simple lesson in active service
10:00
MS:
You also do interesting things when it comes to home or alternative education…
JS:
- Retreats started as a way for my family to meet likeminded families. We wanted have fun and deepen connections, we wanted to strengthen the relationship and teach important lessons not taught in school.
- When you’re in that atmosphere with other families, you start to hear some common threads. We all had had tough times…we saw that our kids were also going to face hard times. We said we could help our kids out through them, or we could prepare them to be better prepared than we were…
- Three buckets seemed to help people the most: personal development, relationship skills, and financial intelligence. If the kids had a foundation in those three subjects, the odds of kids having personal and professional success were significantly higher.
- For my kids, we do all kinds of schooling, but I say once you hit sixth grade these are the most important subjects.
13:00
MS:
How do you teach those things? Why are those not taught?
JS:
- I’m not a huge fan of formal education…there’s a myth that schools will fill all the educational needs.
- Parents teaching these subjects will help strengthen the relationship with your kids.
- We teach this through games and books.
16:30
MS:
I’m guilty of just trying to achieve different milestones, but it’s more about quality time.
JS:
- yes, I always say to people baby steps. Start slow, with one thing that will introduce them to these startups.
- Growing up I didn’t know about financial intelligence. I didn’t know emotional intelligence was a thing.
MS:
Would you say that parents you talk to have that belief that they need to outsource that education to someone else? Why?
JS:
Being busy, the fear of not knowing how, and there’s this myth that you’re not qualified. That’s just not true.
19:00
MS:
We homeschool our kids, and my wife does 99% of it. Sometimes when I’m teaching my 8-year-old grammar, I don’t remember half the rules. but that’s ok, there’s some magic there for him where we’re almost learning together. If I waited, I’d never actually start…
JS:
You may not remember all the rules, but I guarantee you have more enthusiasm than anyone else would. And the kid might feel like they’re teaching you. That’s a really good thing.
MS:
You don’t have to homeschool to do a lot of this stuff, there’s a lot of other teachable moments in everyday life…
JS:
- Yes, true.
- We’re using a hybrid model of schooling
- A lot of people feel like they’re not allowed to ask for help.
- When I was growing up, if you were homeschooled you were either mega wealthy with a tutor, or you had something wrong or had been getting into trouble in class.
22:00
MS:
Anything else to add?
JS
- those first 18 summers are so important. It gives you a motivation to think about the time.
Keywords
- Fatherhood
- The Family Board Meeting
- one-on-one time
- Active Service
- Alternative schooling
Darius Monsef (aka "bubs") joins the podcast today. I think that the way Darius would want to be described in this bio would be in the following order...
- Lover of his wife (THE one).
- Lover of his children.
- Entrepreneur.
- CEO of Brave Care.
He is a very unique guy that has done a lot, including creating and driving, a real life Lightning McQueen car to visit kids at children's hospitals.
Today’s guests are husband and wife Rob and Sherry Walling. Collectively, the couple has started multiple businesses, podcasts, and written several books. In this episode, Rob and Sherry talk about the stresses of entrepreneurship and parenthood, and what resources you need to maintain wellness throughout the ups and downs of business and family life.
Rob's 2 Cents
I reached out to a couple friends and started doing a Skype Mastermind. All it was was the three of us talking once a week—I believe it was once a week it might have been every other week—for 90 minutes. Each person took 30 minutes and said hey this is what I’m up to, this is what I’m struggling with. Most of the time it was about business but some of the time it was about emotional things, like man I’ve got to fire two people this week and somebody quit on me
Nathan Barry is the founder of ConvertKit, a super successful email marketing software company, but the road to success hasn’t been an easy one. Nathan shares how his family’s money struggles growing up instilled in him a sense of resourcefulness, and how he’s passing on those lessons to his kids. Nathan also talks about how his support systems have gotten him through troubled times.
Nathan's 2 Cents:
If you build into kids a desire to learn and a desire to create, that's really important.
Minimalist Joshua Becker joins the podcast. He is a blogger and author of numerous books on how to life with less. He can be found at http://www.becomingminimalist.com
Ash Maurya is founder and speaker, and author of the books Running Lean and Scaling Lean. We discuss his kids’ Montessori education, and how he borrows those same principles for his professional work.
Peter Awad of the Slow Hustle podcast joins us today. Peter’s mission and goals are similar to the 2 Cent Dad podcast in his focus on family and business and life’s mission.
Hiten Shah
http://www.2centdad.com/hiten-shah
Link's to Hiten https://twitter.com/hnshah https://producthabits.com/ https://thestartupchat.com/
Bob Moesta
http://www.2centdad.com/bob-moesta
Links to Bob https://twitter.com/bmoesta http://jobstobedone.org/
Best selling author Alfie Kohn joins the podcast
http://www.2centdad.com/alfie-kohn
Alfie's personal site http://www.alfiekohn.org/ Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Kohn
Aaron Ross; author, entrepreneur, speaker and father is the special guest today.
http://predictablerevenue.com/ https://twitter.com/motoceo
Ruben Gamez is the founder of online proposal software BidSketch. We explore his work habits since starting his own business and "the resistance" which is a concept introduced by Steve Pressfield in his book The War of Art.
Ruben's 2 Cents... Parenthood is like practice and every opportunity with your children is an opportunity to practice and get better
Ben Toalson joins the podcast. If he sounds like a legit podcaster, it is because he is...he is on the Seanwes podcast as well as a podcast on parenting that he does with his wife.
A designer by trade he shares the journey that took him to full time design freelancing and tons of nuggets along the way.
Soam Lall, the founder of Kinnecting the app that can be summed up as the Tinder for parents.
What does “passion” mean to you? Perhaps you’ve spent countless energy chasing a passion or you are searching for your one passion in life. Well I think that way of thinking is a path of destruction and we need to model another approach to our children. We need to teach them what it means to live with passion not waste our lives obsessively chasing a single passion. We need to model a passion for the journey not the destination. This is an imperative if we are going to raise children that are happy, fulfilled and a positive influence to the world around them
full post at https://getconnectdad.com/2016/06/21/be-passionate-2/
Jason Fried the founder of Basecamp and NYT Best Selling author of Rework and Remote talks about freaking out when he became a father and why it should not be taboo.
As a well known figure and thought leader in the business and tech universes, and most importantly as a guy that always seems cool and collected, it is fun to hear his humble take on parenting. He admittedly freaked out and was nervous for the first weeks and recalls learning a side of himself that he didn't even know (in a good way).
Jason is adamant about telling new fathers that the first weeks will "punch you in the face" and you may not connect with your new child immediately, thats OK, it's normal. It takes some time, so don't feel like you have to fake it. Hearing him preach this advice hit home for me, as I assume it will for most new fathers. It is important to realize that silence in these situations is detrimental. Speak up and share the things you learn, we are all in this together.
Anders Thue Pedersen is the founder of TimeBlock a web app that focuses on getting teams into the state of Flow, which many people might call “in the zone”, the process of breaking down work into chunks and focusing on doing one thing at a time. A powerful concept that applies at work and with your family.
Anders' 2 Cents... Getting in a state of “flow” or cognitive deep work is a skill that you cannot learn but is a very valuable skill that will put you in the top 1% of whatever you are doing
www.timeblock.com
Tom Rossi a serial software entrepreneur joins the podcast. His resume includes... -founded the software consultancy Capernaum in 1996 -co-founder of Higher Pixels -co-founder StreamCare He shares true words of wisdom from his time in the trenches.
Tom's 2 Cents... "entrepreneurs talk about their business like it is their child but really it is more like a wild stallion and it will run away with your life and it will take everything you give it"
resources mentioned -Maverick (book) by Ricardo Semler -Punished By Rewards (book) by Alfie Kohn -The Lean Startup (book) by Eric Ries
Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income is on the show. Pat not only is a genius at online business, it turns out he is a pretty swell father. He was working as an architect when in 2008 he got laid off and had to figure out how to make ends meet. What started as selling a guide for passing the LEED exam for architects turned into an online empire bringing in over $150,000 per month. His story is pretty unreal but it is encouraging to hear the very practical things that he does with his children and how he admits that he is not perfect and he fails as a father but he is always looking to get better.
Nate Kontny has been through Y Combinator twice, worked for the Obama re-election campaign in 2012 and now runs two companies, Draft which is a tool that offers version control and collaboration for writers and the CRM Highrise.
Anthony Eden is on the podcast today. He has been running DNSimple since 2010, which helps entrepreneurs with Domain Name Services. As a father of 15yr old triplets (and a 7yr old) he’s been forced to become efficient at managing his business and time with his family. He talks about raising a family while doing extensive travel as well as the practice of having his kids to do internships at local companies to broaden their exposure to work and careers. A native of Florida, he currently lives in France with his family.
David Cancel is a 5X founder, former CPO at Hubspot and currently the CEO of Drift. Wonder how he does it while having two young children? Well it's not balance thats for sure, he is not a believer in balance. Oh yeah, he wakes up at 5:30am, rarely travels and brings his family into his office on occasion. David brings some ultra practical advice on founding companies and being an intentional father.
You can also find David dropping knowledge on his business podcast over at SeekingWisdom
Legendary designer Marc Hemeon joins us and offers a very honest and personal look into his experience of attempting to balance startups and family. Marc has been in the startup/tech game since the 90's including stints at YouTube, Google's self driving car project, and most recently founding Design Inc. As a father of 3 and having a marriage of 17 years, he's seen the ups and downs and offers some very very practical advice. It was refreshing to hear him speak so bluntly on the work that it takes to guard your family and your marriage while doing work you care about.
David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH) joins the podcast. For many people, DHH needs no introduction…but just in case, here is a little background on how David keeps himself busy (apart from fatherhood):
-Invented Ruby on Rails (which powers Twitter, Groupon, AirBnB, and Basecamp among others). -Founder and CTO at Basecamp -LeMans driver -Best selling author
As expected, David brings his energy and passion to the conversation about parenting—a talk which is both opinionated and thought provoking. He shares many of his views, from the “screen time” of his 4-year-old, to which practices promote intrinsic motivation, and why classic reward cycles are completely bogus.
Dave Hoover of DevBootCamp joins us to talk about his journey from being a professional family therapist to becoming a software developer and eventually teaching software development. He shares insights on working for a smaller company, work travel and trying to budget unplugged time devoted to family.
Notable Links Dave’s book Apprenticeship Patterns http://www.starterleague.com/ DevBootCamp.com Sharith Bishay of DevBootCamp Jeff Casimir of Turing.io (Jeff's interview on the podcast)
Dave’s Last Word of advice Budget a block of time that you are unplugged and offline to be fully
Aaron runs a blog/podcast called Work Life Play, having spent a career in sales and marketing he talks about his 22 years of marriage and the keys to success.
On a recent business trip to Spain he spent time with the family of a co-worker and got a fresh dose of perspective on how he was living his life. Having spent a season “living on fumes” he returned from the trip and immediately began a life reboot. He shares the story of this and his philosophy on life and weaving work together with life and play to create a life that is intentional.
A very transparent conversation from a guy that has gone through the trenches and seen maybe life changes. Aaron shares honest feedback and insights that come from first hand experience and have shaped his life, great insight of those of us earlier on in the journey.
Aaron’s Last Word of advice The point is to be with your children, everything else is not even on the list.
Jeff Casimir had aspirations of getting a Computer Science degree and working for a few years and retiring by 30 (based on sound logic in the height of the dot com boom). His world got changed quite a bit after going through school and being pulled toward Teach For America. He has since followed a career in teaching, currently running Turing School of Software in Denver Colorado. He has little patience for lazy students and that is an attitude he also has with his children.
In the episode we talk about tech culture, government and raising children in a way that gives them perspective to the struggles of others. Jeff has some strong opinions on things particularly when it comes to parenting, his energy and passion are contagious.
Notable Links Restorative Justice - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice
How Jeff Brings Home the Bacon big cheese at Turing School of Software & Design (www.turing.io)
Jeff’s Last Words of advice Chill out! Kids are tougher and smarter than we give them credit for, sometimes we need them to need us. Just pay attention and chill out.
Michael found himself being laid off in the wake of 9/11 and started his own business and started to homeschool his children. He then began to realize that his house was the biggest thing that was holding his family back. That was when they bought an RV and went for a 1 year trip that turned into a 5 year journey (so far…) He shares a unique look into what it is like to be part of the community of families living full time on the road from an RV. His desire is to build communities of families that are purposely living life based on their values and not living according to “formulas”. The philosophy that has driven his path has been intentionality in what he does with his family and not being envious of the path not taken. Some Notable Things Mike’s Tribe of unique families https://ditchingsuburbia.com/ Workbench moment - Live intentionally to avoid ending up somewhere How Mike brings home the bacon Boyink Interactive http://boyink.com/ Train-EE http://www.train-ee.com/ Mike’s Last Word of advice Ask yourself, does the life you are building really align with what you want to do?
Kicking off the first episode of the 2centdad podcast I talk with my friend Allan Branch about his experiences raising his two children while running a software company in Florida. His desires to invest in his kids
We cover topics of homeschooling, keeping up with the Joneses, and his desires to travel the world on a boat with his family while teaching his kids how to be curious. Allan has a unique perspective on how curiosity is the key to education and lifetime learning while weaving that into everything that he does with his children. He has an 8 year old and a 6 year old.
Some notable mentions in the show Party Lines - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_line_(telephony) Full Time RVing family - http://ditchingsuburbia.com Full Time Sailing family - http://www.voyagingwithkids.com http://www.sailingtotem.com Derek Sivers - https://sivers.org/ AJ Leon - http://aj-leon.com/pursuitofeverything/the-life-and-times-of-a-remarkable-misfits/ Seth Godin - http://www.sethgodin.com/sg/ Give Camp Grand Rapids MI - http://grgivecamp.org
How Allan brings home the bacon https://lessaccounting.com/ http://lessfilms.com/ https://lesschurn.io/
Huge Takeaway Learning comes down to being curious and using any opportunity you can to teach your kids.
Allan’s last word: Kids will send you to the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.