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On this episode of Train Time we're talking to Rep William (Smitty) Pignatelli about his advocacy for new connections for western Massachusetts. Host Karen Christensen explains, "I'm delighted to welcome my own representative, Smitty Pignatelli of Lenox, to Train Time. Rep Pignatelli has been a great advocate for regional equity, in transportation as well as in many other areas. He wants to see rural areas like ours get a fair shake. With all the recent news about the infrastructure bill, we have a lot to talk about, including West-East Rail." As Rep Pignatelli wrote recently in the Berkshire Edge, "Infrastructure revitalization is critical for regional equity: The goal is not regional equality — it is regional equity, giving Western Mass residents the same diligent action on infrastructure that is the focus at the other end of the state."

State Representative Wm. Smitty Pignatelli is a lifelong resident of Lenox, Massachusetts and a graduate of the Lenox Public Schools. Smitty, as he prefers to be called, was named after his father’s best friend, William Smith, who was killed during World War II. After graduating from Lenox Memorial High School in 1977, Smitty became a licensed Master Electrician and worked in his family’s electrical contracting business for twenty years. Smitty took over the full operation of the business at the time of his father’s retirement in 1991. Smitty left the family business to his brother Scott, in 1998, when he was offered a position as the Business Development Manager for Lee Bank. While at the bank, he attended Babson College School for Financial Studies, graduating in 2001. Longing to serve the people of his beloved Berkshire District, he decided to leave the bank to pursue his dream of public service and run for higher office. Smitty won the seat of State Representative for the 4th Berkshire District and is currently serving his eighth term in the House of Representatives.Smitty was first elected to the Lenox Planning Board in 1987 and served on that board for five years. In 1992, he was elected to the Board of Selectmen, and was elected Chairman on four different occasions, serving until May of 2003. Smitty also served from 1995-1999 as a Berkshire County Commissioner including two years as Chairman of the board. With over 30 years of public service experience, Smitty has also been involved in many local associations. He is a member of the Berkshire County Deputy Sheriff’s Association, a past board member of the Berkshire County Arc, the Board of Directors of the Berkshire Visitors Bureau, the Berkshire County Red Cross and is a former President of the Lenox Historical Society.

Transcript Note: This transcript was created using AI and is imperfect. For purposes of quotation, please check the actual recording! It is time-stamped , which is useful as a guide to finding a point in the recording, but the time-stamps are not a perfect match to the podcast because we have added an introduction and done some editing.

Tue, 11/30 11:24AM • 21:30SPEAKERSKaren Christensen, Smitty Pignatelli

Smitty Pignatelli 01:50Good morning. Pleasure to be here with you.

Karen Christensen 01:53Terrific. Train Time, has, you know, ranged far and wide. But this feels really like bringing it back home talking about, you know, the part of Massachusetts that that you and I both know, and love. You for much longer because I think you were born here.

Smitty Pignatelli 02:11Yep. Born and raised. My father was born and raised. So in fact, my grandfather immigrated from Italy, came to Ellis Island and got to the Berkshires by rail. So we've had a long history of 140 years in the Berkshires.

Karen Christensen 02:25Wow. I didn't realize it was that long. So that's, that's a perfect beginning for this because we are talking about, we are talking about bringing back connectivity to this region that we lost some years ago as many parts of the country and many places and other countries have lost. And obviously, there's a lot going on now. Now you I would love to have you tell us how you assess its focus. You know, you know, I spent a lot of time working on the Berkshire line. But you know, there's some stuff going on right now in terms of west east rail, as you've taught me to call it. Let's talk about west east rail. When did when did you start thinking about this? I know you've been on a couple of committees, tell us that story and bring us up to date?

Smitty Pignatelli 03:24Well, I have to give you all the credit seriously, I think you've been such a champion for rail in general, but in particular, the north south rail, from the Berkshires to Danbury to New York City. So I think that's what really raised the awareness for a lot of us. And as you know, I've long said that we can legitimately look at North South unless we look at west east and I did coined the phrase west east, too much like the Mass Turnpike, which began in West Stockbridge, Massachusetts in the Berkshires and made it to Boston. My biggest fear is if we start things in Boston, it will never get to the Berkshires. So that west east conversation has to be legitimate, and we need to weigh the options. So I was appointed to the governor's task force to look at transits throughout the Commonwealth. And the white paper just came out last week from MassDOT. And I've long envision an economic corridor from Albany, New York, Berkshire, Springfield, Worcester, Boston, west east west, would then turn into a very legitimate north south hub, from Pittsfield, much like Springfield has become a HUD hub. Much like Worcester has become a hub. I think there's no reason why the Berkshires can't be a hub for legitimate rail not only helping us environmentally, by getting cars off the road, but giving people that opportunity to live here and work there. That could go either way as well. Yeah, but like talking about a commuter rail more so than a passenger rail, I think is paramount for what I believe is a once in a century investment. A once in a multi generational opportunity to do this thing the right way. The Berkshires cannot be viewed as a backbencher.

Karen Christensen 05:20Yeah. And I I'm really glad you brought up Albany because what you know, there, there's always there always, always these issues of you know, the, the ridership. And the more you expand a network, and the more places you can get to buy on a rail system. The more you know, the more return there is on the money that's invested in it. And we're in a great position. We're essentially equidistant from New York and Boston and then there's Albany a state capital city of almost 100,000 People not far away either.

Smitty Pignatelli 05:43Well, if you if you look at you know, our travel and tourism which you know, you know full well about as well. You've if you drew a three to four hour concentric circle around the Berkshires. I mean, there's probably 45 million people that have the potential to come visit the Berkshires. So now we look at this COVID situation we've gone through for the last two years. Clearly people are here in the Berkshires. Clearly people are learning to work remotely in the Berkshires. We have our beautiful natural social distancing. We have all the amenities that I would say rival anywhere in the Commonwealth or New England. But what do we can do to keep them here? The ability to live here work there, I think is an opportunity that investments and rail and transportation are paramount. And that's I say a kiss can't say enough. If we're going to do this, we have to do it right. Or we shouldn't do it at all. And right now the proposal in my opinion is very flawed. It's insufficient. And that economic opportunity for folks to live in the Berkshires and work in Albany or Western or Boston or vice versa. Think cannot be a missed opportunity going forward.

Karen Christensen 06:49Yeah. Now, the proposal that came out from the Department of Transportation was to create a Western Massachusetts Intercity Rail Authority. That would be somehow separate from mass DoT But your concern? Is that, that it would focus that it would end up being to East Eastern mass centric. Is that is that is that your sole concern? I think, yeah. Other concerns as well?

Smitty Pignatelli 07:24I have a lot of concerns. I don't think we have time today. But I really believe that we've been talking for years about this east west west east economic divide between Western Mass and Eastern mass. This proposal, in my opinion, further compounds that discussion, to have a separate oversight agency or governmental agency that doesn't have an identified funding stream, I think is short sighted going to be very problematic. As you know, one penny on the sales tax every person to buy something in the Berkshires right now, and pays a sales tax. One penny of that goes directly to the MBTA in Boston, that that amounts to 30 to $35 million annually going directly to the MBTA. Now I've been a state legislator for going on 20 years. I'm honest, I can honestly tell you, I've never once set foot on an MBTA bus, or a subway in the city of Boston, but yet I'm paying for it. Yes. So yes. And then a lot of the elected officials in Boston and people running for statewide office are saying fares at the MBTA should be free. Well, yeah, it's free while we're subsidizing it in Berkshire County in Western Massachusetts. That's not fair. It's free in Boston. But yet we struggle with the BR TA and button in the Berkshires for, you know, after our services, weekend services, trying to have schedules conducive to people's work schedules. So if you worked at a local restaurant or even owned a restaurant, and you close up at 1011 o'clock at night, how do you get home? Just no public transit ability to do that? So well, we're trying to find ways to enhance and expand services, folks in Boston are saying just give it to me free. But yet the Berkshires will keep paying for it. I don't think that's fair. Yeah.

Karen Christensen 09:14Yeah. I mean, your talk, you bring up the issue of equity in many areas, not just in transportation. And this is certainly one where, where we do deserve a fair shake. And you're concerned, I think, I think all of us this issue of fares is I find very interesting, because there's been a lot of talk in Massachusetts about free fares. And I find myself wondering, if that's really what concerns the public, it seems like to me what I hear about it, people want there to be transportation, they want it to be reliable. They want to have schedules that meet their needs. It's not the fares so much that that that I'm hearing about?

Smitty Pignatelli 09:56I think you're absolutely right. I think when it comes to transit, we want reliability. We want affordability at the dozers, those are just two of the key components of this. Now for years, you know, we've been saying no turret no turnpike tolls on the Mass Turnpike. But yet, that's a user road. If you don't ever drive on the master plate, you don't pay for it, you know, but when you do use it, and I would argue even winter, I'm looking out my window right now with a foot of snow on my front yard. I'm thinking that is one of the best roads in Massachusetts because it's well maintained. Well, that cost money. So what is wrong with asking people who use the road to pay a little bit to do it. Now it's got to be affordable, it's got to be reliable. And I think some of the exorbitant fares of the MBTA, I think need to be reduced. But I'm not a big fan of making it free. If you use it, you shouldn't be expected to pay for it. Someone's got to pay for the bus. Someone's got to pay for the bus driver. Someone's got to pay for the ticket people. So I think there's an obligation and I have no objections to paying something reasonable to use a public transit system. But it's got to be affordable if I'm going to use it on a regular basis. And right now, I think this transit from you know, the Berkshires to Boston. It's not reliable, and it's not affordable to do it on a commuter basis. And I think we've been advocating, you know, under your leadership for a long time, a legitimate commuter rail. What they gave us in this report, in my opinion, is a passenger rail with no funding mechanism to do it. And I think we have a lot more work to do to make sure this was right.

Karen Christensen 11:37Yes, and this and mass do t do T has specifically said that they would want Amtrak they would recommend that Amtrak operate east west rail service.

Smitty Pignatelli 11:50Well, that's what they're saying now and I, in my personal opinion, I don't think Amtrak is reliable, and I certainly not affordable. Now you and I, from the Berkshires can drive to, will say I hop on the Metro North make a round trip to New York City and what 50 $60? Yeah, you and I could drive to Hudson, New York right now, hop on the Amtrak from Hudson, New York, it's a much prettier ride to New York City along the Hudson River for you know, 150 or $200. But if I have to do that on a regular commuter basis, that is cost prohibitive, and I think the history of Amtrak is not reliable, and it's not affordable. You know, my legislative aide in Boston, she came home for the holidays, she took the Amtrak train from Boston, it took about four and a half hours cost her one way, I think $40. But yet, if you live in Boston, you could buy a monthly pass on the MBTA. For like, $90. In, in ride it. Yeah. 2025 times a day. Yeah. For the same $90. So it's there's a real economic divide. And I think we need to address that in order to make this proper investment. Yeah,

Karen Christensen 13:00Amtrak has been long focused on in fact, was, in a sense set up to preserve the long distance that cross country routes and, and the regional kind of system that commuter or, you know, the remote worker, again, not sure if we're gonna have to come up with a new name if it's not daily commuting, but it's regularly going into the city. Yeah. It is that is commuting. And, and that indeed, the price really makes a difference. It's it and reliability is essential. I took Amtrak to Washington over Thanksgiving, actually. And it was a you know, it's a nice way to get there. No question. But one of the things that always surprises me is how much people simply expect Amtrak trains to be late?

Smitty Pignatelli 13:56Yeah, yeah, they've grown accustomed to it. Unfortunately,

Karen Christensen 13:59they've grown accustomed to it. And that is not true in other countries and countries, you actually expect a train schedule to be something you can count on. It doesn't always happen. But people get really mad. And hear it's like, oh, well, it's been a half an hour later. And everyone, we've just got to say, so we are, you know, we're tolerating it. But that really does keep a lot of people from using trains.

Smitty Pignatelli 14:30I think it does. And if you and I were going to Boston to go to a ballgame, you know, we would go down, we go down early anyways, and make sure if it's a half hour late, we're still an hour and a half early. But if you're doing this for business on a regular basis, you know what, I can't afford to be 45 minutes late to a meeting, you know, I think doesn't work. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work. And that's why it's got to be reliable. They have to have tighter scheduling, and has got to be affordable. And even if you're making that trip, one day a week, or maybe two days a week, maybe it's not five days a week, it still has to be reliable and affordable. And right now it's not and I just, I don't have a good feeling in my stomach right now that Matthew T rail was truly committed to Berkshire County, as you remember, they talked about buses from the Berkshires to Springfield. I was labeled the bus killer, which you could just fine. But I I'm also predicting that you know, they're gonna have great service from Worcester to Boston. Okay, service from Springfield to Worcester. And then you get on the MBTA and Worcester to get to Boston anyways. And we're going to have poor to non existent from Springfield to the Berkshires, if we're going to have a transit system for the entirety of the Commonwealth. We need to shake it up, we need to rethink things. And I went, I said on a call just before we get on with you, Karen, we need to break down the MBTA. It should no longer be called the metropolitan Boston Transit Authority. We should call it the mass transit authority or the Commonwealth Transit Authority. It is a Commonwealth authority for the entirety of the Commonwealth, not just one part for Boston, another part for the Berkshires and Western Mass. And another part of the Cape Cod, I think we have an opportunity to do this thing, right. I don't know of any other state that has multiple transit authorities running the rail systems, much like they're proposing for Massachusetts.

Karen Christensen 16:22And I have seen I have heard people talk about the, the that the city systems, including New York should extend much farther. I mean, we think about going to Wassaic that's the MTA in New York and that's a that's a route that's almost Two hours. Last. Yeah. I mean, you're excuse me, maybe clean that up for me? Yeah.

Smitty Pignatelli 16:45You think about the MBTA. Currently, it now goes to Worcester. I mean, Worcester is the second largest city in the Commonwealth. So clearly, that's not metropolitan Boston, it's expanded that route, you can take an MBTA commuter rail to Providence, Rhode Island. So that interstate rail system is already existing in Massachusetts, let's just expand the footprint of the MBTA. I think we should call it a different name. But have it come out to Springfield and Berkshire County. And then and then maybe if we are forced to do with an Amtrak from the Berkshires to Albany, that's fine, too. But the heavy Commonwealth Transit Authority, I think is gotta be priority number one, to do this thing legitimately. And in for the next 100 years, we're making a major investment that you and I hope we have a long time, we may not live long enough to see to what we're envisioning right now. But for the next generations to come. I think people like you and I are going to be the ones who have laid the foundation for this. And we can't wait five more years or 10 more years or 20 more years. It's already 20 years too late. Let's not wait any longer.

Karen Christensen 17:57It is and we want a 21st century rail system. And that's my concern often about the Amtrak mentality is that it just seems it seems you know, it began 50 years ago, it seems very 20th century. Well,

Smitty Pignatelli 18:13we want a 21st century transit system. But we're already at the end of 20, year 2021 22. You know, I've always said get moving, we got to get moving. I've always said the best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago, well, we better start planting the trees right now for a commuter rail system, throughout the Commonwealth and maybe multi states. And I think this would change the economy dramatically for the for Massachusetts, but especially Western Massachusetts, we've seen a loss of population, a loss of economic base, we have an opportunity to reboot this whole conversation and the live here work, their attitude could be from anywhere in Massachusetts very easily, reliably, and affordably. All boats will rise. And that's why we're called a Commonwealth. Let's enhance that opportunity to be to do what we're named after all boats will rise with one agenda.

Karen Christensen 19:08The other thing I want to ask is to talk about the connection to New York, because as as we both know, a lot of people in the Berkshires are oriented toward New York, probably more than to Boston. I agree. And how do we how when you talk to people about it, how do you get across the idea that it's not just it's not just one line? Or the other? It's about it's about creating connections to both cities and the the kind of amplifying the value of each

Smitty Pignatelli 19:43Yeah, I think, you know, folks in New York, I think, understand it better than Boston people, to be honest, the importance of rail because they depend on the rail to get everywhere in New York City. But I think people and I've learned during COVID. But I think if you look at the real estate market and the Berkshire turn COVID, we've seen a lot of folks from down east, looking at the Berkshires very differently. If we could give them that economic opportunity to live your work there. I think we could see a great influx of Eastern folks. But that concentric circle that I talked about earlier, and you were talking 40 45 million people, they were right in the middle of two state capitals. Think about exactly Albany, New York and Boston, the largest city in New England. We're right in the middle of this, this was an opportunity for us all to really have a vision for the next 100 years, the next generation. And if we don't do that, I think shame on all of us. It would help the environment by getting cars off the road. It would help other businesses look at the Berkshires very differently about coming here and can't find an Uber or Lyft anywhere in the Berkshire County right now. But you could have those opportunities going forward. As long as we get people here, people are here. What are we going to do to keep them here

Karen Christensen 21:02to keep them here and for young people especially I'm noticing young people with new young families. They love the idea of being in a place like this What a fabulous place to live, but they also want to pursue careers, and especially if they're both working to give them the opportunity to live in a place where they can get to New York, or Boston, or to Albany.

Smitty Pignatelli 20:09That's exactly right. And we're making some we've made some major investments in broadband. So people who are working from home, can access the outside world very quickly. It but then the next, the next major investment is transit. And I think this rail transit is real, is right on the heels of broadband is going to change the demographics of Western Massachusetts, especially the Berkshires. And that's why I'm harping on we need to do it right. For the next 100 years. If not, we're gonna be thinking back when you and I are old people sitting in our rocking chairs, saying, Boy, what a missed opportunity in 2021. And that's what I don't want to have any regrets going forward.

Karen Christensen 22:03Well, thank you, Smitty, for your advocacy on this very, very important piece of, you know, making a prosperous future here. And across the state, this, this kind of transformation will benefit people everywhere in the Commonwealth.

Smitty Pignatelli 22:21Well, thank you very much. And you've been you've been my mentor, and on this rail for a long time. We wouldn't be where we are today without your doggedness, attitude on getting this thing going. And I really I can't thank you enough for all that you've done. I enjoy working with you.

Karen Christensen Me too. All right. Great. It's lovely to talk to you.

Smitty Pignatelli Thank you. Happy holidays.

Transcript

Note: This transcript was created using AI and is imperfect. For purposes of quotation, please check the actual recording! It is time-stamped , which is useful as a guide to finding a point in the recording, but please be aware that the time-stamps may not be a perfect match to the published podcast.

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Today's Train Time conversation with Massachusetts State Representative Christina Minicucci ranges widely. We talked about issues that affect the travel choices of people in Rep Minicucci's district, and in fact pretty much everywhere: frequency, reliability, and cost. We talked about trains, of course, but also about bike and hiking trails and safe streets. These other ways of getting around, as well as the car driving that continues to be part of most Americans' lives, need to be considered when thinking about getting people onto trains.

Christina Minicucci serves as the State Representative for the 14th Essex District of Massachusetts, which straddles the Merrimack River and includes parts of Lawrence, Methuen, Haverhill and North Andover. Christina is a passionate advocate for progressive policy with a focus on food security, education, clean water, and public transportation. Christina can almost always be found participating in community events or enjoying her love of the outdoors.

Transcript

SPEAKERS Karen Christensen, Christina Minicucci (times reflect place in final, edited interview/podcast)

Karen Christensen 01:44 Good morning. I'm so pleased to have you with us, Representative Minicucci. Or Christina, if you don't mind.

Christina Minicucci 01:51 That's great. Thank you, Karen. Thank you for having me today.

Karen Christensen 01:55 Yeah, it's Thanksgiving week. It's a little bit quiet. But it's of course, it's the I think this is in the United States, the busiest travel, typically the busiest travel time of the year. So we're going to talk about travel and transit. And, you know, I thought it would be I would like to hear just a little bit about your district and about the things you've seen over the past year and a half or so in terms of people getting around or people not, you know, having a real change in not needing to get around so much.

Christina Minicucci 02:34 Sure. Well, I am from the opposite side of the status view. So in the upper northeast corner, right up on the New Hampshire border. I represent three gateway cities, Lawrence, Mizzou, and in April as well as North Andover, which is a suburb of Boston. We're about 24 miles from Boston. So a little too far to run unless you're a marathoner. But close enough that we have a fair number of commuters. Yeah, the three the two of the three cities also sit on route 93. So we do have a fair number of car commuters from there. But North Andover and Hazel also sit on route 495, which is our primary artery into Boston, which if you're familiar with our and the state, very, very busy, very congested road and isn't really a direct route to Boston. So for us a commute from hay roll or North Andover by car in the height, you know, when we're not in COVID times is at least an hour and a half. There have been days with that. It's taken me two hours. If there were an accident to go 24 miles. Yeah. And one day I came in, I showed up at the statehouse and one of the very few days actually drove my car there 12 times since I've been in office. And I said, if I were an elite marathoner, I would have just beat myself for two hours, and I said, an elite marathoner would have beat me today. And so yeah, but usually we're good hour and a half to Boston. So I personally, since I've been in office, I've relied very heavily on the commuter rail, even though it's not the quickest, it's still 45 to 50 minutes for me to get in on the commuter rail. It's at least I can get things done, and the time isn't completely wasted for me. So I might be reading a book for pleasure, but a lot of times, yeah, take up my computer and sit and work on, you know, a document letters, just things I have to get done. So …

Karen Christensen 04:49 What are the trains there that, like, so that service from Boston to Haverhill. Now, is that an Amtrak service or is that a commuter train service,

Christina Minicucci 04:59 We actually have both. So the down Easter that comes down from Maine, passes through our line, and then there's a spur in it, it. It peels off just past and over. But we it comes through April and it is possible to take the down Easter into Boston, so I've done it. But typically it's the commuter rail and Hazel is the end point. So downtown Haverhill,. there's a second stop and hay for the Bradford train station which is over the Merrimack River. So the city of April's kind of split into half. So people on one side of the river take April, the people on the other side of the river take Bradford stop. And then Lawrence, which is actually the closest to me I live in North Andover. So the Lawrence train station is the closest and then and over. So those are really the four stations that service my district. And they're the train schedule, this body is reading the reading slash APR line. And a lot of our commuter rail trains only go as far as reading which for me is about a 15 minute drive to get to that train station. But there's there are more trains that go as far as reading. Some of them don't go all the way to the end of the line. And see and so it's interesting relying on the commuter rail, I like it the trains are great. I don't have any issue with it, except the schedule. And so

Karen Christensen 06:40 And the schedule, in terms of frequency or the you know how early or late they run?

Christina Minicucci 06:44 Yeah, but a little bit of both, but free coffee. So it's great in the commuter, you know, the sort of primetime commuter town. So there's, there's a number of them first thing in the morning early, and there's a number of them in the afternoon. But if you work a very traditional nine to five schedule, you'll find you will probably find yourself in a predicament one way or the other, either in the front end or the backend in having to do some hustling to get down to the train in time. Because if you missed that last commuter train, which is about eight o'clock, yeah, you've got to wait till about 830 for the next, you know, and now the schedules are even more sparse. Even when we're working on a full schedule. You know, if you're in the commuter times, you're fine. That's there, plenty of trains, they run with enough frequency and behavioral line is generally pretty accurate, you know, pretty accurate and on time, but if you're trying to go outside of those commuter times, or if you have to come home in the middle of the day, for example, it's a little bit harder.

Karen Christensen 07:51 Post pandemic? Are you seeing any shift in schedules? Or what are you hearing from constituents about, you know, different work patterns? So I've heard quite a bit about this, people talking about in Connecticut in New York, about just not being the same, you know, crush in commute, you know, the peak peaking times and things being spread out a bit more, you see, yeah.

Christina Minicucci 08:20 Well, you know, it's hard for, for me to get a good grasp on it, honestly, because so many people in my community have not gone back to full time work. They're working two days a week, maybe back in Boston, or on these, you know, rotating schedules. I've heard of some people that have to go in four out of 10 days, and they pick and choose. And so it seems like people have a lot more variability. And when they need to be in Boston, which I think would probably lighten up some of the car commuting, though, it seems like people are still a little hesitant maybe to get back onto the commuter rail, either because they have more flexibility in their job. So they're not working, you know, the now going at 630 or seven in the morning on the train isn't as necessary. And so maybe the schedules don't work quite as well for people. I mean, I'm still trying to dig into exactly what's happening. Because, you know, some of the feedback from people says, well, there's still, you know, there's still a fair amount of traffic going into Boston. So I don't know, what's driving that if it's just people staying out of the commuter rail, they don't like the schedule, or you know, or they're still nervous about riding on public transportation as other people. I know, some people are nervous about that. So I'm not really quite sure what's driving that I do know that our public bus and VR TA has resumed their bus to Boston, which is also an alternative to the trains so and they said they are getting an increase in people wanting to take the bus again. So it seems like maybe people are slowly easing their way back into work. You know, in North Andover, especially, there are certainly a fair number of people who work in Boston, some of the other communities a little less so but certainly in North Andover, you'll see a lot of commuters. So and we're going to see what goes what happens after the first of the year with like, the booster shots coming online now people starting to feel like I'm done being at home, I want some in person time with people.

Karen Christensen 10:36 I think we have still to build transition. So it's hard. It's an interesting time in terms of infrastructure and planning for, you know, future transport needs, because, of course we're not living we there's no way we can say that this is kind of just normal, yet. Even if there's a new normal, we haven't hit the new normal. We don't know exactly what it's going to be. So it's the trends that that I am curious about, you know, certainly more flexible work certainly much more attention to climate change issue. Yes. And, and, and there's a lot of talk, there's especially, you know, in Boston during the mayoral election, about fares, and I wonder, do you think for the routes that you're talking about, do you think that the cost of the fares is a major factor in people deciding where to live, where to work, how you know, what, what kind of schedule they want.

Christina Minicucci 11:49 Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it factors in because a round trip fare from Hey, rolls about $24 is pretty expensive. It's a real, it's a real, real. It's a real train ride. It's not two and a half dollars or something like that, you know, as you get closer, and maybe you're getting a better fare, but I'm out here, it's expensive, because you have to pay for the parking. Because you have to drive yourself to the train station right there very limited busing, that gets the train stations if you live if you live near the train station, and you can walk great if you live really in any of the central roads or near the central roads of our cities, you can get to the train station, there's certainly a bus from North Andover, that goes to the train station. For me, that bus is about two and a half miles from my house. So I have to walk two and a half miles or take or take my bike or something to get onto a bus to get me to the train station.

Karen Christensen 12:55 Right. And it's there's all those transitions that really kill you, I used to do this horrible commute in London, that meant a couple of changes. It was just little, and it was another two and a half mile walk at the beginning.

Christina Minicucci 13:08 Right? And I tried to do it one day, I was like, How can I am going to try to be, you know, go totally car free. Let me see what happens. And I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna have to be I have to put on my reflector gear. Like, I got to make sure I got my lock, I gotta get everything I need. And by the time I thought I was like, I'm going to drive to the train. Yeah. Because then I was like, Oh, I'm gonna have to reverse this at night. And I'm going to be driving it riding my bike home at night. And you know, as you start thinking through that, you say, Well, I think I'll drive. It's better than traffic. But you know, I would prefer to go car free. But I'm not. We're not there yet. We don't have the infrastructure for that.

Karen Christensen 13:49 Right? You had said to me in an email that you have not, you know, not to have to deal with the cars. And I think that that's more and more people are feeling that. But of course, we have to make it you know, not say you have to be a marathon runner, or sort of super, you know, a sophisticated cyclist to be to do without a car.

Christina Minicucci 14:31 That's right. And that's a little bit where we are now. I mean, I know that living in the suburbs as I do, it's a little bit of a trade off where you don't get that same. You know, everything isn't quite as walkable as it would be if I were in the heart of the city. But there should be the option for a little more transportation to public transportation and modes to get where you need to go. And I did live in Boulder, Colorado for a while. And I don't know if you've ever been there. They don't.

Karen Christensen 14:46 Yeah. Briefly.

Christina Minicucci 14:48 Yeah, yeah, so they have a really great cycling, they have really good bike paths everywhere that are free, but then all the time. Yeah, right. And then the streets of the bike lanes, and then they have a great bus system that runs the grid, and you know, goes all over the city. And then you can put your bike or your skis on and you go and access everything they have to offer. And I just I didn't have a car. It didn't you know, we had one car that we shared, but I didn't take my car to work ever I took my bike I got on the bus, you know, and I was able to access everything. And I recognize that that's a plan city versus we're sort of backing into hundreds of year old cities here. But I kind of see what could be and what is possible in a city of 60 plus 1000 people 60 75,000 people and those are the types of cities that I represent, you know, cities between 50,000 and 100,000 people they should have be able to have access to that kind of reliable consistent transportation to get where they need to go. And so you know, well that's sort of like pie in the sky I feel like sometimes for people in Massachusetts I don't think it needs to be so yeah and that's

Karen Christensen 16:08 that's great to have model I hadn't thought about

Christina Minicucci 16:14 it's not trained specifically but it is public train Yes. Right

Karen Christensen 16:18 Yes because I talk about trains so much. I tend to think about Europe or in high speed trains I think about China, but you're quite right that that a city that really makes biking easy and any right when I didn't have a car when I was in Boulder for six months or so and I And I just had a bike. And, and, and I don't even remember using buses very much but you're right it's having the it, where it's frequent, where it's convenient where and this thing of being able to, to put your bike on a bus having that all be very comfortable. And the thing is with, you know, one of my concerns about the talk, the focus on fares Is that is that, I'd really like to see us focus more on improving the system. So people don't have to have cars, because if you're maintaining a car, and a lot of people who use public transport, they also have to maintain a car and that's expensive.

Christina Minicucci 17:25 Exactly. And that's where I am right now I have to maintain my car. Even when I take public transportation, I felt that means yes, because I actually do everything I need to do. And I have to maintain my bike, which by the way, I'm not really like an amazing bike maintenance person.

Yeah, now I'd like be really, really good at it. But I still end up having to take it to get tuned up once in a while. So it works. And

Karen Christensen 17:53 it might I took one, I have two bikes, but I took I took them in to get. And one of the things was actually he just used a bunch of lubricant and shoved it through the gears. And I thought God, I could have done that.

Christina Minicucci 18:07 Now as like I've been forced to change a tire before. And on my mountain bike, it's one thing but I on my road bike at that thing terrifies me anyway, because some of our roads here are a little bit narrow, a little bit windy, people drive maybe a little too fast. And so scary even being on the road. And when I've had to change that tire, that one was much harder. And that involves me picking up the phone be like can somebody pick this tire, it's too scary. And so, you know, I do really appreciate places that are in and I noticed right here in North Andover, and also in all of the surrounding communities, everybody is going to the safer streets to making sure that we have sidewalks and yeah, the complete streets grant program through the state, but trying to finish out the streets, making sure there's a marked bike path on as many roads as possible. And, you know, I really appreciate that, because I have three kids, none of them have licenses, they all love to ride there, my oldest is almost 19. And he prefers to ride his bike or walk, he's picking his mom. And he just says, you know, I don't, I don't need a car, it's fine, I'll ride my bike. And as I think about my kids being out on the road, running, walking, biking, whatever they're doing, I like knowing that there are sidewalks and bike paths and people are becoming more aware that not everybody has a car. Yeah, and not everyone's using their car every day.

Karen Christensen 19:39 And of course, the it's this very positive cycle, circle. That, that, you know, the, what I've noticed is that cyclists are much safer when they're more of them. Yeah, the more and I'm sure that's true with pedestrians as well. That, that as you make streets safer, there's going to be more people, and then it becomes this, you know, it's a very positive feedback loop. And, and, and so we need to see, I mean, that's really the thing, it's this, it's a system, it's all, it's all connected, it's not just trains, or just or just paths.

Christina Minicucci 20:21 But I think with the trains, many of our there definitely are improvements that need to be done to the train stations to the platforms in my district, you know, not all of them are at grade, some of them have a little bit of a break in them. And so there are just upgrades to make sure they're all accessible, and they all have sufficient safe parking, and, you know, kind of all of those things and that they have enough of a of a local bus route that that the services them. And then also just the reliability of them. It's slow, you know, if there's no high speed that happens, even the direct trains, you know, they're not Europe or China. You're not getting from that short distance in a short amount of time. It takes time, right it is it does take as long as it does to drive to take the train. It's more comfortable for someone like me who would prefer not to be stressed out with the driving and I would rather be sitting there having that time as my own. But, you know, electrifying the trains is something that we we'd like to explore moving forward, improving the tracks. We have some sections that are not double track. And so requires a train to wait for another one to pass. So we have a section that really needs to be improved in that way to make sure that we can run more trains, run it with more frequency. If you take the commuter rail from, say, Lynne, or Beverly-Salem area, those run every 30 minutes, they're running to Boston, and they take about 30 minutes. So that's great, like, so you live in any of those places, you are just, it's easy to say I'm going to commit to the train, because you know, you're going to be able to get one with reasonable frequency. And doesn't take that long. And it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to navigate from the sea coast into Boston, which even though it is even closer than it is from here, it's even harder to get there. Yeah, it's one of them can't get there from here places that we have here on the north. Like I'm like going to Beverly. But I can't get there from here. Because they're a little bit more remote, because I stick out into the ocean a little bit. And the arteries, the roads don't, aren't as, as developed as the highways are where we are. And so it takes a lot longer to get off of those little, the little neck like you know, the cape areas. And to get onto a main road like a 95, or a 495, or a 93, one of those main arteries, you have to get from your home onto one of those before you can drive into Boston. So being able to hop on a 30 minute train is gold.

Karen Christensen 23:17 Fantastic. So testing, so if you were to pick just one or two things that would make the biggest difference to the people in your district would, what would they be?

Christina Minicucci 23:30 I would say if we could improve the quality of the tracks so that the trains could run a little bit faster. I think that would help people feel more comfortable about reliability, speed, just have more comfort with knowing the trains going to get there on time and maybe save them some time. So I think that would be helpful. And I think more frequency. And but the only way to get that frequency is for people to be assured that the train is going to run on time. Yeah, Run quickly. So they kind of tie into each other. You have Yeah, people without a lot of flexibility, you know, struggle with making the commitment. And then if there's no commitment, the train schedulers say, well, we can't run it because there isn't enough demand.

Karen Christensen 24:21 Right, exactly. We need to kind of cut that off and decide that you know, and there's plenty of evidence that if you have good reliable train service, people will use it. People it's desirable. So that's, that's Yeah.

Christina Minicucci 24:38 And it's interesting with the fair piece, you know, some of the things we talked about it doesn't you, you only gave me two wishlist items. So this will be outside of that. But with the fair piece, I'm always interested to see well, what happens if we let people travel from Haverhill to Andover for free? Or for you know, to go within our area or region? Like what if you could go three or four stops and not pay? Would people use it more? Would local folks be more apt to say I'm going to hop on the train? And so I started take the train, I was the chat with people the whole time. I'm on the train, you know, it's like, someone's like, Oh, are you just a rap I and other people, sometimes I'd sit next to someone and ask and I did see one guy going from behavioral and getting up and over all the time. And I was like, So what do you know, I see the train, where you going? What do you do? You go into work, and just out of curiosity, and he's like, oh, yeah, I work right at the train station. He goes, and I live right at the other train station. And it's easy for me just to hop on at one and get off at the other and go back and forth. And, you know, I thought I wonder if there are more people like that, that live in these more congregated area. There's lots of housing. Yeah, each train station, there's lots of housing, there's dense housing that, you know, we're with all of the Housing Choice bill and all of the housing changes that we're doing legislatively, it's to try to get people to build near the train. Yeah, Bill. Yeah, people don't need to talk. And that's what he was doing. And he did pay a fare. So I don't know if there's a way to make that fare free. Would more people do that, you know, if we had the last mile service.

Karen Christensen 26:14 To reduce some of those, or even just to encourage more interaction, but yeah, those short shorter trips, not just thinking of it as commuter.

Christina Minicucci 26:24 That's right. But just so you know, I want to go to Andover. I want to go downtown. I'm going to walk through how to do some shopping, I'm going to go to work whatever I'm going to do, you know, is it possible to jump back and forth and they do they do have space on the train cars for bicycles. So you know, people will bring a bicycle on the train, it's not super common, but you would see a couple people on every train ride. And the closer you get to Boston, the more full it gets. And I would say that I'll that there was never an issue filling the train to the max. Every single train, so certainly gets ridership. But it'll be interesting to see what happens after COVID I think there's a lot left to be seen. So,

Karen Christensen 27:09 yeah, and, and, you know, just so many new so many ideas percolating. So this is actually i It's kind of interesting to me to think about, not just, you know, getting people from the city, to outlying areas, but you know, actually promoting more movement within the, you know, like towns like the ones you represent. Well, it's great to have a little bit of an introduction to another part of the state that I'm not familiar with. And I hope that we'll have a chance to meet in person.

Christina Minicucci 27:45 And some that would be great. We'd love to have you come visit, we could do a mobile train. That would be Boston, and we'll try to get from one side of the city to the other side of the city, and then we'll go from city to country.

Karen Christensen 27:59 Can I bring my bike?

Christina Minicucci 28:00 Yeah, I'll put you on a bike trail. Yeah. thing. Yeah.

Karen Christensen 28:05 Alright, now that I've got it tuned up. Great, lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Christina Minicucci 28:13 Thank you for having me.

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On this episode of Train Time, Tom Sexton, NE Regional Director for the Rails-to-Trails Conservancy, explains the growing movement to combine passenger rail service and multi-use trails. While many people think that trails mean no trains, the reality is that the two forms of transportation work well together, and offer benefits to both rail service providers and to the walkers and cyclists who enjoy the expanding network of trails. Examples abound, and Tom points out ways this design approach could be applied more widely on existing and new or restored rail lines.

Transcript

SPEAKERS: Tom Sexton, Karen Christensen; recorded Tue, 11/9/21 11:14AM • 24:36

Karen Christensen 01:43 Tom, good morning. How are you?

Tom Sexton 01:45 I'm well, thank you.

Karen Christensen 01:47 Glad we could do this. Although I must admit, I think back to the time when you came to Great Barrington, we were live at St. James place with people all around the room. This is a little bit different.

Tom Sexton 02:01 Yeah, I'm I'm intrigued. I haven't done one of these quite in this in this matter before.

Karen Christensen 02:07 But it gives us a chance to talk about something that's actually important, interesting and surprising. to a larger audience. I remember when you came to Great Barrington and spoke about rails with trails, how surprised and energized people were, by the end of that, because it was like, their eyes were wide open, they'd never thought of it. So that's, that's what, why don't you tell us, I think the thing that's better known as rails to trails, and this is, of course, train time, we're talking about Rails most of the time, so. But you bring it a different perspective on rails and trails.

Tom Sexton 02:57 Yes, most people think of rail trails, that's the, you know, that's the product when you're all done developing a corridor and, and the actual trail part of it. But rails with trails are a subset of, of the, the 24,000 miles of rail trails, we have in the United States, and we're finding that many more rails with trails are coming online. And overall, it's really smart to share rights of way these corridors, these linear corridors, they're harder to create every year, because there's more stakeholders. United States, the planet is getting denser, it's hard to just draw a line on a map and say, we're going to go from A to B. And we'll work it out on the way that was easy. When across the Great Plains, and you didn't have to relocate people in other services and go under or over. And now, it's, it's a different story. So to look at totally, we need to share rights of way these these corridors with with each other, it doesn't matter if it's a highway, or utility, or a railroad, it's really not a good and it's not the highest and best use of that piece of property. to only have one user, it's very inefficient. And it's cost a lot more to maintain and manage that corridor. When you have only one entity, if you're sharing, if you're sharing with a utility, or you're sharing with a rail. There's there's more entities that share in the acquisition, and, and the the maintenance of it, and the operation and management manage of it. But it's really it's difficult sometimes, because it's a different way of doing business. And unfortunately, some people just are slow to come around, but we have a lot of rail trails, which share for utility rights of way. It could be sewage, it could be electrical fiber optics, etc. And this is basically the same concept when we share with an active railroad.

Karen Christensen 05:56 And how has this evolved? The I assume that, that rails to trails that when railroad lines were closed down that that at some point here and in other countries people thought of using the that property for for trails. But But obviously, it's a more much more complex picture, I think people have have the idea that that you know, you either have a railroad or you have a trail and once things have gone in, you know, once the railroad is gone, it could never For be put back things could never be shared. It's a, it's a, you know, it's a zero sum, which is not what you're talking about.

Tom Sexton 06:46 Right! We began in 1986, the Rails to Trails Conservancy began to open their doors that year. And there were some rail trails out there before the term was even coined. And before there was an organization. And, and some of those were rail with trail already. So these things were happening, there weren't there weren't many. But today, we have over 400 rails with trails, which again, are a subset of the bigger set of pathways we've just referred to as rail trails. And we have, let's see, yeah, we're over 400 at this point. And, and it's and it's growing. You have Massachusetts, seven of your rail trails, which are rails with trails, New England, all total has I think you're up around 23. Now,

Karen Christensen 07:53 can you describe what you don't one or two of those, I'd be really interested in where they are, we can actually put links on our when we put this podcast up, because I actually want to go and see it for myself. I've seen some of your photos, but I'd love to go and see in Massachusetts.

Tom Sexton 08:10 Sure. And perhaps you and some of your your listeners have already been there and just didn't notice because it's it's it the the two exists side by side very well together, maybe the closest one to where you are would be the Norwalk attic section of the mass Central Rail Trail, your Northampton, which also connects to the Mehan rail trail. And then going south, that's those trails pretty much come together. Right, in Northampton, and they go under the the Amtrak line. And then they go out to Amhurst. And it goes it goes south south towards a Connecticut border from there. But that's a rail with trail. Your your I bet people don't even really think, right?

Karen Christensen 09:12 How do these things come about? What's the what's what's the you? Would you say that there's any common?

Tom Sexton 09:22 Well, yeah, I think we're gonna see a lot more of those. For example, one, we're building really, really long distance connections and and I'm working in New England a lot now to connect the six states. And you often have a disconnection where you want to go and link that city with this city. And for whatever reasons, the the easiest way to get there perhaps, is already not not available, it's now a highway, or it was it was plowed over to be a farm way, or just reverted back to the other landowners. But there might be an active railroad where you can share that right of way. And sometimes the railroad isn't really active, but it's not abandoned. So you can construct a trail and and keep the option open for rail to come back. And Rails to Trails Conservancy really does hope that rail service, their transit, commuter freight come comes back in a big way because we need a more balanced transportation system that's easier on the environment, and more convenient and gives and gives people choices. Unfortunately, we've kind of gotten to a road building mindset. And we just can't get through the places we'd like to in different in different ways. But if we maintain the corridor, it now it's really that that's the important thing. If the the historic line corridor had one track or two tracks or three tracks or more, then and none of those are either abandoned or they're inactive. That gives you a little more have an easier time to co locate.

Karen Christensen 11:39 Yeah, cuz there's a lot more space there. How do you look for I'm thinking of the rail trail that that the Metro North line that I take at the moment until the Berkshire line is running again. It goes from, from New York City to was, say New York, and it stops there. But there's a from there, there's a trail that goes north on the old Harlem line. And that's wide enough. You see people on bikes and and walking, and there's really it's it's plenty wide enough for both. Is that is that a usual thing?

Tom Sexton 12:20 Yeah, you can. Sometimes they're they're very close together. Sometimes they have a fence in between them. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they're at different heights, the train may be lower than the trail, or vice versa. But you'll find that at first people think, oh, that that seems unsafe. But it's actually very safe. Because it's railroad corridors contend to be a little bit isolated. And isolation is is the problem is that's when you have unsafe conditions, because no one's watching. And fences don't even take care of that totally. And you could have cameras monitoring rights of way. But somebody has to watch those cameras. And so what I'm saying is that, when you bring in a trail, you actually create a safer corridor, total corridor,

Karen Christensen 13:31 and you mean safer for the railroad in terms of ah,

Tom Sexton 13:36 yeah, yeah. safer and safer for everybody. The railroad, because the best monitoring that goes on in a corridor, are our people that are staying off the tracks, and they do they stay on the trail, there's no reason to go on the tracks, historically, with these 400 rails with trails. People, people don't go to the tracks, there's no reason to go over the tracks.

Karen Christensen 14:03 Right. Right, if you have a trail there. And of course, I guess for the those who are cycling and walking to the fact that there is a train service through again, it's it's it's just not as isolated.

Tom Sexton 14:17 Transit loves it. And if if a trail user see something going on, you have train users that do this all the time. They're, they're whizzing by and they see something happening in that corridor, they get on their phone, and they call Yeah. Or they clap, or if there's a, you know, a railroad employee. Easily accessible. They'll tell them but that happens all the time to same with someone you or I, who see somebody if they were vandalizing or they were lost, or they were crossing the tracks and looked like they were having a problem. Very few people on a rail trail now don't have a cell phone. Yeah. And you get on and you call 911. And you alert people. Doesn't happen often. But and the other thing is that if people, people who are going to do something they shouldn't, they want to do that away from everybody else. So right away, the use of that corridor by trail people just sends those people away, they're not going to vandalize, they're not going to dump they're not going to hang out and and you know, look for somebody that that that they can steal their purse from or just, it just it's not happening and we've we have 24,000 miles of these things. So it's pretty mainstream now. And and the rail with trail subset of this is is mainstream as well, Massachusetts, in 2013, actually passed a policy at there at the Department of Transportation that made it easier to put rails with trails in place. Maine did the same thing. New Hampshire just introduced that legislation last week, so you're going to see a lot a lot more of these and and they really do make a lot of sense.

Karen Christensen 16:31 Who does the planning, does that kind of create some action? Extra demands, you know that my experience is that the people who plan the engineers who plan, railroad projects are probably rather different from the people who plan trails. I mean, how you have to get both groups to get, you know, both sort of professionals together are there people who specialize in this particular thing,

Tom Sexton 16:57 you want to have it, you know, we want to have a partnership, you want to have a cooperative partnership. And most times when these are, these projects are put in place, the railroad and the rail trail interests, work work together. And it might be your rural or metropolitan planning organization that helps facilitate things in the planning. And then when it moves to the more intricate design and engineering of that partnership, that side by side partnership, then they'll pull in consulting firms that can really get down to the nitty gritty. And fortunately, there are more and more who have some experience with Rails with trails.

Karen Christensen 17:53 Because obviously, with the infrastructure bill having been passed, there's going to be a lot of different projects going on. And I would love to see because the thing about trails that gets people on on bikes and on their feet and not in cars. So it's a great fit with an increased use of real roads for passenger travel. Now when when you spoke in Great Barrington, one of the things that I remember galvanized the audience and we were talking most about the Berkshire line that goes right through town, is it people are concerned about parking cars, cars, enter the conversation because people's like, you know, there's gonna be all this traffic and all this parking if there's a train service people want to use. And I remember you're pointing out that by adding trails that you can create a lot more opportunity for people to get to stations in without using a car.

Tom Sexton 18:59 Yes, I mean, depending on how far they're they're coming from a lot of folks and this is proven in transit for many, many years. If you provide some folks a couple miles connection via a trail, they'll take their bike if it's a mile half a mile connection, that's an easy walk. It's a Safe Walk they don't have to worry about cars and and that's that should be thought of as even a bigger context is is when you create you know a point of of density be whatever you're constructing and and if you can integrate a trail with that or make sure your sidewalks are built and they're connected and the crossings are are well yeah. And if you don't have if you don't have a pedestrian corridor, either a trail or sidewalks then you can think about on road bicycling connections and all those need to be thought about when you're creating this this hub of of activity because we don't want to and that's kind of getting away from the point of a lot of this is we don't want to keep building 100 space parking lots in everywhere.

Karen Christensen 20:35 Exactly. And it's it's really funny because I've been involved in a couple of conversations about the last mile issue getting people around and I have I guess people talked a little bit about having rental bikes versus you know city bike like concept but there's been virtually no conversation about just making it easy for people to walk or actually easy and safe for them to ride a bike to the station. You know the actual physical layout and of course there are things to do as you say to make it so people feel comfortable getting on a bike they feel comfortable walking they have you know, obviously having ways to lock up the bike but those you know, having safe crossings, good lighting that good signage even

Tom Sexton 21:25 Yeah, yeah, it's it's all makes it easier for people to get around to get around town and do have purpose connections so that when they get off the transit, if they want to hop on their bike and go home fine if they need to stop in the market or they need to stop for another reason, you want to you want to have you want to have choices, you shouldn't have to be relegated just to an automobile at that point. I mean, of course, we, as you get further and further away, that becomes more difficult. But we need to think about satellite parking lots and that kind of thing. But now, like, you know, with more people possibly working in home, you'll you'll have less, less strain on on all that. But we'll see.

Karen Christensen 22:26 Yeah, yeah, no, no, for the there are a variety of of private projects and initiatives, not just here in the northeast, but around the country, people trying to get passenger service revived on small as revived or expanded on sometimes quite short lines, sometimes longer lines, if they want to make sure that as they you know, in the earliest conversations about Pat, you know, improved passenger rail, that they can start to think about and learn about that possible trail components, what's the best way for them to do that?

Tom Sexton 23:07 If they want to learn about this kind of facilities? Yeah, oh, I should have said in the beginning. But our website has a lot of good, easily accessible information on this. It lists all the rail trails in United States. So you can see the ones that are around around you, it has sort of those questions that frequently asked questions that pop pop up, when when people who are not familiar with this kind of facility, want one note. And it lists the different states like Massachusetts that has good enabling policy. So advocates can share that with decision makers, and let them know that this isn't odd stuff we're talking about anymore. This this is pretty much mainstream. And there's a lot of comparables out there, there's a lengthy record of safety. And it's really, you know, something that's easily easily understood now and documented.

Karen Christensen 24:23 That's great, because I think it's not as well known as it should be and and I appreciate your coming on to Train Time to make so we can do our best to make sure train advocates across the country know about this and start thinking about it, because it's so it's so future, you know, a future positive. And write really, really great a great way to think about, I mean, improving, it's it's better for towns, obviously, the climate impact is significant. But in a quality of life. Getting out of the car seems to be a great thing to do whenever we can. So thank you for your work. I look forward to seeing you in person again, one of these days, Tom.

Tom Sexton 25:10 Yeah, be happy to come up and do another presentation and update everybody on on how far we moved on this situation. Last year, and 2020. Federal Railroad Administration came out with a study that was in the works for about five years. We've done several studies over the last 30 years on this, but the federal government released their report and found the same things that we were finding that it's it's common, and it's safe and it's growing.

Karen Christensen 25:51 Oh, that's terrific. Okay, well, I have to get the link from you and will include that too. And

Tom Sexton 25:55 yeah, that's, that's on our website, again, for our toolbox and just use key word rails with trails. It'll pop up.

Karen Christensen 26:05 Terrific. Thanks so much for being here.

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Ben Heckscher sees transparency as one of the keys to building back better

At Union Station in Springfield, Massachusetts you can buy a ticket to Yankee Stadium in the Bronx. But you cannot buy a ticket to get you to Fenway Park in Boston.

With the Infrastructure Bill finally passed by Congress, we turn to Ben Heckscher, co-founder of Trains In The Valley, to talk about what this long-awaited funding could mean for transit projects in western Massachusetts. Will East-West (or West-East) routes become a reality? Will Bay Staters finally be able to take a train to see the Sox?

Ben also explains the process he went through, including filing FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) requests, when he realizes the extent to which Amtrak is operating without public accountability and the kind of transparency we expect from government agencies. Stay tuned for some surprises!

Perhaps borrowing from his experience reporting on NYC’s tumultuous Second Avenue subway project, Ben shares his findings about the Amtrak board on the Trains in the Valley website. His work to increase the transparency of Amtrak, our national rail service, is especially timely, since Amtrak, thanks to the Infrastructure Bill, is going to receive its largest injection of public funding ever.

Ben Heckscher is the co-founder of the local rail advocacy group Trains In The Valley, a non-profit organizing efforts for continued rail improvement and expansion in the Pioneer Valley. Ben founded the group, along with Zane Lumelsky, in 2016 after relocating to western Massachusetts. Previously, Ben published the well-regarded blog: The Launch Box, which focused on the highs and lows of constructing the long-awaited Second Avenue subway line in New York City. With a degree in Electrical Engineering, Ben spent the majority of his career working in the telecommunications industry in the U.S. and in Germany where he enjoyed Europe’s well-developed rail-system. However, his first introduction to trains was via his grandfather who worked for The Budd Company who manufactured stainless steel train cars in Pennsylvania.

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Wayne Davis is renowned for his success in building support for the Downeaster, an exemplary passenger train service that runs from Boston to Maine. He's also known for his continued efforts to strengthen the coalition of rail advocates across New England. In this podcast, Wayne tells his story along with his colleague Bruce Sleeper, who helped write the legislation that brought the Downeaster to life. That service, run by the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority, has become a beacon to rail advocates, and because the planned East-West service in Massachusetts mirrors it in many ways, this is a particularly timely program.

Wayne Davis was CEO of BankEast Mortgage in Maine after having been a senior vice-president of several Maine banks andr nine years as Finance Officer for the Maine State Housing Authority. He joined the Rail Passengers Association in 1988 and became vice-president in the early 1990s shortly after forming TrainRiders Northeast. He was appointed by US Senator George Mitchell to serve on the National Commission on Inter-modal Transportation (created by the first President Bush) and for several years traveled from coast to coast as a commissioner. That led to professional relationships with the FRA, FTA, urban mass transit folks in USA and Canada. TrainRiders Northeast has worked closely with Amtrak top management for thirty-three of its fity years.

F. Bruce Sleeper is an attorney based in Portland, Maine. He served as a chair of the former Commercial and Consumer Law Section of the Maine State Bar Association and served as a member of the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority from 1995-2000, and helped to prepare the legislation which created the Authority.

Transcript

SPEAKERS: Wayne Davis, Bruce Sleeper, Karen Christensen; recorded Tue, 10/26/21

Karen Christensen 01:36

Wayne and I, before we started, were talking about the about how awful it is to have to drive. We are definitely people who prefer to take the train if we can, but you two have have been at this for really quite a long time with notable really very well known and very, very important results for your state and our region. So I am dying, as I know our listeners are, to hear how you did it. How did you get started restoring train service to Maine?

Bruce Sleeper 02:20

Well, I think I think the first thing and the the easiest way to start is to say we've been doing this since the last century Train Riders was formed in 1989. And I was not involved in the formation, the initial formation, I joined a little bit after that, but So Wayne Can, can can speak about how it was originally formed. Because that's an interesting story in and of itself. But it's 1989 to 2021 is a long time. My kids, my kids were being born back then. And at this point, my youngest turns 30. In in a week.

Karen Christensen 03:09

So they've grown up with with trains. Well, Wayne, since you were there from the very beginning. Tell us how what about the gestation the birth of this effort?

Wayne Davis 03:21

Well, the birth was my background was in banking, and a CEO of a mortgage company. And one of my little stock pieces was if your two family, you live somewhere where you need two automobiles, if you could get rid of one of them, you might be able to afford a mortgage. But when you were calculating the eligibility, if you need the two cars, you might not be able to have the home, you have to make a choice. So you should pick a house that's somewhere near public transportation, like a train station. So I was I did enjoy trains, but I hadn't been here. But I my job as President of the Mortgage Bankers Association, was to go to DC periodically in New York. And I used to fly. But I had those inevitable bad trips on People's Airline. I don't know whether or not you've ever remember that. I've heard of it. That was the first of the cut, right? You know, no chairs in the waiting room, you sit on your suitcase. Simple, simple airline. When we landed in New York, we blew out a tire. And the train Did you know The plane did a loop around and round and round tool, the pilot got it under control and scared the hell out of me. So I got to my meeting anyway, when it was time to return I called the office and said What am I going to do? She and my secretary said, Well, why don't you take the train. My husband and I took the kids to Washington for the, you know, the flower festival and was wonderful. I hadn't been on a train since the 50s when I was in the service. So she made the reservation for me on the train from from New York to Boston, and then rented a car for me. So it was it was a delightful trip. So from that point on anytime I had to go to the Bankers Association, I would drive to 128 Station and board the train or overnight to Washington if it was the if that's where the meeting was going to be. So I just fell in love with the service. It was so convenient and so civilized. Then I had the inevitable bad trip on the train to Amtrak President Graham Plater complaining about the condition of the fairly new and fleet equipment, burned out reading lights in the coaches and poor condition of the restrooms on a trip to New York. After my complaint, I ended the letter with an MLS. Well, we have to do to have you extend down direct service to Portland from Boston to save me a trip to Boston in the car. And lo and behold, Mr. Claytor answered all of his own mail back in those days, and he wrote me a personal letter 10 days later, apologized for the equipment, shared what he intended to do to correct the problems, thanked me for writing and suggested that if I was interested in having Amtrak, sir Portland, Maine, then I should do a quickie survey of public opinion. And if there was an interest, get back to him. I learned later that Mr. Claytor quite often personally responded to every piece of mail, not just those that interested. But following his suggestion, I put an ad in the newspaper inviting folks to come to the bank to discuss the issue and enjoy refreshments. People showed up and ultimately became the first board of directors of the group we named train riders. Our first activity was to collect public opinions on election day, and share the results with Mr. Slater.

Karen Christensen 07:35

What year was that?

Wayne Davis 07:38

Probably 1987, maybe 1986 87?

Karen Christensen 07:46

Wow.

Wayne Davis 07:48

Probably 80, 87.

Bruce Sleeper 07:52

Well, you you didn't get informed, informed train riders until 89, 1989.

Wayne Davis 07:52

And but we were 1988 was a busy busy time when I look back in my old calendars. visits with Henry for now. And I got to meet Henry, who was then a director of the board of directors in Washington.

Karen Christensen 08:19

Let's let's explain to listeners what NARP is. Could you do that? Explain. Just NARP is not necessarily familiar to everyone.

Wayne Davis 08:29

National Association of Railroad Passengers. Today, they still use that Rail Passenger Association.

Karen Christensen 08:39

And that's existed since since Amtrak was formed, I believe in the early 70s. Yeah.

Wayne Davis 08:46

But but so we were somewhere, around eighty seven and early eighty nine because it took me a while to to meet all the people and get started on it. But we were, we were we were blessed with with a result that got the attention of Amtrak. And back in those days, I think they were they were looking for expanded things that that might make sense to them. We told Mr. Slater, we sent him all the results of the survey and he said come to DC. So I gathered the Commissioner of Transportation and a couple of new board members of train riders, and a consultant we had hired to help us. We went to Washington on the night owl and to Union Station and when we were introducing the transportation commissioner and the rest of us to Mr. Kaylor in a conference room full of multiple department heads. One of the VIPs said you know, you're the first officials from any state that we've ever picked up at the station here in Washington.

Karen Christensen 10:03

That's fabulous.

Wayne Davis 10:06

But, but he was a peach. Everybody thought Mr. Claytor was a curmudgeon. But he was awfully nice to me. And when we were we're done with the big meeting with everybody. He called me into his office and he said sit you want to train, I'll tell you what you got to do to have a train. Haha. So he gave me six items. You know, he said, One, you got to have the best equipment in the world. Because you only get one chance at this. So you got to have new equipment. You can't use any junk on our trains. So he said that's my department, I can take care of that. Which is where we wound up with $20 million worth of the newest rail equipment that they had. And I kept the memo which said at no cost to the state of Maine. tie that into this atmosphere.

Karen Christensen 10:57

It's so true. And that's one of the questions anyone today is today ask well, how how do all these pieces fit together? You know who who are the necessary participants in having you know, a train service come into existence.

Wayne Davis 11:16

We started with the with the governor and the commissioner, you got to be on speaking terms with them.

Karen Christensen 11:21

And then when did because because you actually were then wrote legislation. Right, it Bruce, is that when you came in the picture?

Bruce Sleeper 11:34

Well, actually, I came in MIT a little bit before that. Um, and I guess I guess, you know, to get back to your your question, I think.

Bruce Sleeper 11:48

I think what's important for us has been, it's got to be a grassroots effort, it's got to come from the bottom up. You can try and do it from the top down. But it's far better to start with citizens get people to sign petitions, talk to their legislators, local legislators go through the local governmental entities and municipalities get support there and keep going up through the state legislature, through the governor's office through very important that the commissioner transportations office, and also reach out to the to the federal government, which includes not just Amtrak, but includes the congressional delegations in the areas that you want to serve. And it can also include the the FTA, and the FRA, the federal aid entities that have various grant monies that you can distribute. It's become much more of a formal process since we did it. Because we were one of the first to do what we, we didn't have to go through some of the hoops that are now exist where everybody's trying to get this money for free service.

Karen Christensen 13:03

Yeah. It is complicated now, and certainly different similarities. Now there are in those throwing money, did you find that the state officials once you got near the top that they were supportive? Did they have to be convinced what was the situation there?

Bruce Sleeper 13:21

Well, dependent upon which state official you, you wanted to talk to? You mentioned a minute ago about the legislation while I did write the legislation that authorized and required, what was then the, the Maine Department of Transportation, to take all steps necessary to return passenger rail service to Maine, going down to Boston, which we hadn't had since the 1960s. And, and so I put that legislation together. But while we were putting it together, we met with the Commissioner of Transportation, who was then Dana Connors, and we had a very interesting meeting with him. He was he was very, you know, it wasn't like he was going to make it his project, at least immediately. But he was not standing in the way of things. And one of the questions we asked was, we're not sure what we want to put in the legislation for how soon we should have service in Maine. And we'd like to put in, you know, six months or something? And he thought about it thought about and said, Oh, yes, six months is fine. Well, that was probably 1990. When we did that we didn't get service until 2001. So six months was a little a little, a little slow, short of an estimate. But But yeah, we had a choice early on, we could have been an adversary of the government and and taken, taken a position that we were trying to force things on there, or we could work with him. We took the ladder choice. And it worked. It worked amazingly well. It's it's unless you have a level of government that is dead set against passenger rail service. And that happens. It's so much better, so much easier to work with government officials than to try and force them and coerce them to do what you what you want them to. And we were lucky because we were in Maine, people were open minded at almost all levels of government. And also because it mean, the scale of things is not you know, as long as large as it might be. Most public officials are very accessible in the state of Maine. I mean, you know, here here,

Karen Christensen 15:48

that's that's a good point. I try to provide some background context for listeners who are in other parts of the country or perhaps even other parts of the world. Why don't I ask Wayne to just describe main To those who are not familiar with it, what, where's this place that you are trying to get train service to?

Wayne Davis 16:13

Well, we still had manners. And still, I think we honored the past senior citizens up here where we're rather revered I remember from my Grandparents Day of you were senior, you were pretty hot stuff. To the younger people. But interestingly, some of the things that Bruce has said really still go back to Graham Claytor. Who was not quite my age when we met when he was in his late 70s, early 80s.

Karen Christensen 16:45

Oh, I guess we should we should you better tell listeners how old you are. So they know exactly what we're talking about.

Wayne Davis 16:50

At this point, I don't use Walker's or canes or, or glasses or anything like

Karen Christensen 17:00

See, that's what campaigning for trip train service will do. That's what I at least that's what I'm hoping.

Wayne Davis 17:06

I have snow white hair, which wasn't white when I started. But it was cleaner who said you have to form the relationships with your your Commissioner of Transportation or your Secretary of Transportation, and your governor. And of course, we want on both on both issues there. And it's always it was somehow easier to deal we with the officials. They were always so polite. When I halfway through this process met the the Administrator of the Federal Federal Railroad Administration, Gil Carmichael. To me, he was like my grandfather. And he Welcome to me and he said, Come in here from Maine, I love made into World War Two, we left from Portland's Union Station come in and sit down. And I remember his secretary saying, but you've got a room full of people in your conference room. And he said, That's all right. Take them some bottled water and tell him I'll be in in 15 minutes. Karen really just about I don't know what it was. But the car, the stars and the planets were aligned. Because everywhere we went, that's what happened. And then

Karen Christensen 18:33

what year did the train service actually the down Easter start running?

Wayne Davis 18:38

It was

Bruce Sleeper 18:40

2001?

Wayne Davis 18:46

Yeah, before a wheel turned, that was 12 years of our effort. Yeah. 2001. runswick was 2013.

Bruce Sleeper 18:57

Well, 12 or 13.

Karen Christensen 19:01

So so let's let's talk about about the downy stir, where it runs, what it does, and and how the impact it's had?

Wayne Davis 19:12

Well, it's had a tremendous impact. And that was part of our dream as a citizens organization to begin with. It wasn't just to be a toy, it was supposed to be something that would ultimately my way of thinking should be very firmly woven in with the fabric of life in Maine. And I can remember a Senator in Washington when I testified before Congress, he said and what makes you think that you're a 19th century technology is going to have any passengers on it. I smiled and said, Well, Senator, the state of Maine has just spent about, you know, many millions of dollars to do ridership studies. And the, the Federal Railroad administrator says this is the most, you know, sensible project that crossed his desk and in about 10 years. So I said, I think we're, you know, we're, we're, we're in place, I think we will ride the train. Again, probably the main thing our governor then was, was Angus King, who was now today's US Senator. Okay. Yes. And we talked about the train. I dealt with him for the eight years on a personal level, both he and his wife. While I was involved with schoolchildren educating them about below the lovely life, you could have a few road train that they were responsive and and liked it. But the governor worried before the inaugural he said, maybe you could get some of your board members to be hosts on board the train. As you know, people can hurt themselves when they're not familiar with crane cars. They may reach out to grab the diaphragm or something between cars lose a finger. So we did that. So board members acted as a volunteer hosts for the inaugurals. And afterwards, the governor said, you know, that was neat. Maybe you should keep that running for the benefit of the public. Volunteer Host Program was born, which really set the train apart. The rail authority state officials and everybody were fascinated with the fact that the train had a volunteer host on it roaming up and down.

Karen Christensen 21:35

So so how does that yeah, how does that work? I didn't know about that. And and I think it's intriguing. So if I got on the down east or from Boston, if say, next summer I go to to Maine on what what would I see?

Wayne Davis 21:52

Well, we hope the Host Program will be restored it was for the pandemic and for the condom train was suspended. Yeah, many months. But now volunteers are back at stations. People. But Conde Nast did a big article on the down Easter when it was new. And they refer to it as America's most charming train. Well, okay, we accept the charming, say, fastest or most modern, but we'll take charming and I think yes, what people expect when they boarded on Easter. It's clean. We also run the only train which has its own food service. come from the Amtrak commissary, we have home aides. And we did. Of course, yeah. The supper train, the five o'clock train on the Boston quite often had homemade lasagna being served in the cafe car. And you could hear people calling home and saying don't wait supper for me, dear, I'm going to eat on the train.

Karen Christensen 22:59

That is how it should be That sounds wonderful. I can see that, that no one's mentioned that to me before, but I have so often had, as we talk about, say, east west or west east service in Massachusetts. And people have said, well, we've got to look at what the downed Easter does and what the northern New England Passenger Rail Authority has, has done. Actually, that's that's a point that perhaps we should spend a few minutes on perhaps. Well, either if you could talk about what what is the the passenger rail authority?

Bruce Sleeper 23:58

Well, they like to say that they the they don't run the train, but they make the trains run they oversee, they are that they are the state authority that oversees the service. They can do more than just the down Easter, but that's what they're doing right now. And they work with Amtrak as well as the host Railroad, which is now pan-am may wind up being CSX soon. And they they are the ones that set the fares. They set the schedules within the parameters of what Amtrak can provide. They have a budget as to you know, what it's going to cost and so on. What they were created for, however, was that originally it was going to be the mass, the Maine Department of Transportation RM dot that was was going to be in that position. There was some concern that there might be some liability directly to the state if that was the case. So the Rail Authority was was created, and I worked on the legislation for that as well. And they've been in place ever since the ever since before the train started running. And continue to do an excellent job. And Patricia Quinn, there they are executive directors is a nationally known figure in passenger rail circles. And as a leader among the Yes, state supported service groups. And we've just had a great experience with that. It's not just training. I

we it's it's not just train riders, we started everything. And we like to think that we help keep it moving. But there's a lot of other bits and pieces here from from pan-am to Amtrak to nepra to the federal government and so forth that are all working together to make this a success. As Wayne said, we put in some new unique touches. The Host Program is completely volunteer and we usually have we try we'd love to have one one host on every single train. But we just don't have enough hosts for that. Plus there's one train that's pretty late at night. Nobody wants to be bothered, but those hosts when they're on there. go up and down the aisle and say, Does anyone need any help? Do you need any directions? Do you need any? What would you like? And give guidance, as well as physical help, in some instances to the, to the passengers. They work closely with the with the crew, because of course, the train crew is in charge of everything. But they're, you know, they're there. They're almost like assistance to the crew, in some instances, limited, but in some instances, and otherwise, they're there for the passengers. And just for the passengers, you

Karen Christensen 26:37

Now, Bruce, weren't you telling me when we had an earlier conversation that that you were giving some train history on a on a run recently?

Bruce Sleeper 26:47

Well, that wasn't me, that was Wayne. And it was, it was Wayne. And we've done that before we they used to be a more of a tourist train that used to go from Brunswick up to Rockland and wing did a little history thing there too. But he should tell that story.

Karen Christensen 27:05

Wayne, when people ask you about the train and the train history, what are their questions?

Wayne Davis 27:11

Well, they want to know they will board the trip when they board in Boston quite often, I always say where is home? And where did you come from today? And people that have arrived by train from Washington or New York, or Chicago or California and they came in on the Lakeshore, you know, through the Worcester and Springfield and all of that. And they say this train is different. Well, how do you mean, well, look at your your heating system on the side, they look so shiny, you could toast an English muffin on a train cleaner. The crews after smile, if you don't smile, your history was quite new, there was a turnover of conductors periodically. Because they were you know tended to let they were having a bad day the customers and the passengers were were suffering because of it. So now everybody's charmed by the conductor's we've had marriages onboard the train, where the the groom and the bride met on the train as commuters. Oh, that's marvelous. So we've had the ceremony for marriages, we have the conductors know when everybody's birthday is when somebody gets a job, a new job or an increase. If you're in the cafe car on the on the five o'clock or the 530 out of Boston, the cafe car is normally before the pandemic was jam. All the way.

Karen Christensen 28:52

That's the one I'm taking.

Bruce Sleeper 28:58

One of the things I think about with this train is that it's not just a happy train. It's it's like the crew, the passengers, the hosts, whatever, it's almost like a family. And sometimes families are dysfunctional. I don't think we're dysfunctional here. We're very happy family. And it works well together. And I just don't think you have the same atmosphere on on many of the other trains that Amtrak runs. And nor do I think you could.

Karen Christensen 29:30

It's something to aspire to. I think this is actually what you bringing up is is really important as we think about what we want in in future. I actually for final question on I would love to know something about the people who are riding the train. What what you know, some of them are presumably that you know, the summer tourists, summer visitors. Who else is there?

Wayne Davis 29:59

The last figures, you know, before the world came to an end, about 30%. Little over 30% of them were commuters that had jobs in Boston or on route the rest of them or day to day travelers. And it's been that way ever since except during oh, let's say from the Fourth of July to Labor Day. That's when we get the people from all over the country and Europe. We're getting an awful lot of people from Asia. Yeah, yeah. And they were all fascinated with the service as being you know, unique in some way. You couldn't really put your finger upon it, but it was the smiling conductors and the happy hosts and the good food. You know, and on time performance plays in there once in a while. When the road bed is in good shape and your trains are running on time. Everybody loves you.

Karen Christensen 30:56

That's right. Yeah, that sort of thing makes really makes a big difference. But I think all these other things that you brought up are even more important. And, and I, I see now more clearly than ever, why, why why what you've done is a model. Although I have to admit that I hope it won't take quite as long.

Wayne Davis 31:25

One of the one of the greatest things, Karen, is that we've had, during our history, seven Presidents of Amtrak have come to our annual meeting and delivered their greetings, and half of those people as we got into the service, you know, in the 10th, year, 11th, year 12th year, they were saying the down Easter was a perfect example of how local service should be operated.

Karen Christensen 31:57

It's a great complement. And I have to compliment both of you that perhaps especially Wayne, because he has seniority for for the terrific efforts you've made in the influence that you are the rest of us working to bring back the trains in other parts of the country. It's been really a great pleasure to talk to you today. I appreciate it very much. And we'll I'm sure meet again before long but you know, I'm going to be on that train next summer to

Wayne Davis 32:34

Let me know when that's going to happen. We'll make sure you have a super ride.

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An Amtrak trip from Vermont to New York made Kevin Ellis angry. But not in the way a difficult flight or terrible traffic can make us angry. A trip that could have been, that should be, a pleasure was instead deeply annoying. And he was embarrassed to think that this was the best America has to offer visitors from other countries. There was sadness, too, and deep frustration with the way we've neglected trains over the decades, "By Hartford or New Haven, you are wondering how this country ever got to the moon or invented anything."

Kevin echoed the thoughts of many Americans we have heard from over the years. While not directly involved in train advocacy (yet!), Kevin's article, "The Embarrassment of Amtrak," has been widely circulated among those of us working to promote passenger rail. He speaks eloquently for all train riders who want to see Amtrak and other passenger service operators create a world-class US rail network. Those concerned about the decline of rural America should consider this:

If this train took under four hours, it would be packed with people back and forth to NYC. It would bring New Yorkers to Vermont to spend their tourist dollars, buy homes and inject commerce into our Covid economy. They would get off in Springfield, Vt., rehab a house for under $200,000, and go to work at the Black River Innovation Campus with the fastest internet in the country. They might go to Putney, or Dummerston, or Brattleboro and start businesses.

This is exactly the perspective that created and continues to energize the Train Campaign. Read the full text of Kevin's article here.

Thanks to Transportation for Massachusetts (T4MA) for underwriting Train Time.

Kevin Ellis is a co-founder and partner in Ellis Mills Public Affairs, a consulting firm offering political strategy and communications counsel to companies and nonprofits nationwide. Kevin co-founded Ellis Mills after 22 years at KSE Partners, LLC, a leading government affairs and communications firm. He has led advised on government strategy, public relations, and crisis communications, including the historic same-sex marriage campaign in 2009. Kevin’s clients have been in telecom, transportation, health care, farm-to-plate agriculture, and education. He serves on the board of directors of Chelsea Green Publishing, a leading environmental and sustainability publisher, and the Green Mountain Film Festival in Montpelier.

Transcript

Tue, 10/26 7:39PM • 22:26

SPEAKERS: Kevin Ellis, Karen Christensen

SPEAKERS Kevin Ellis, Karen Christensen

Karen Christensen 01:48 Kevin. Good morning.

Kevin Ellis 01:50 Good morning, Karen, how are you?

Karen Christensen 01:52 It's delightful to have you here. So to speak. from Vermont. No, you are in.

Kevin Ellis 02:02 I'm in. I'm just outside of Montpelier, the state capitol Karen Christensen 02:07 Great. I'm in Western Massachusetts. Well, your blog post about the embarrassment of Amtrak was rather widely circulated, which is how I came across you. So can you tell us how you came to write that? I mean, you obviously have a blog. What inspired you? And then I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, because you basically summed up a lot that other people have been talking about, and that's important now.

Kevin Ellis 02:39 Sure. Well, it began I was I, you know, Vermont is far away from everything, right. So that's, that's the greatness of living here. But it's also the difficulty. So whenever you have to go to New York to take care of an elderly parent as I had to, in that instance, you're always faced with fly drive, or train. And, you know, and it just struck me that all the choices are bad, you can fly and pay a lot of money and get stuck at LaGuardia or Kennedy airport, you can drive which is you know, really tough on your body. And, and the traffic is really unpredictable, obviously. And, and I love trains, I've always loved trains. And I don't go to Europe a lot. But the one time I did are the two times that I did, I was just amazed by the train service. And you know, here in Montpelier, the State Capitol, a town of 1000 people, we have an Amtrak stop right in town, and the ability to get on. And, you know, the dream is, of course, to have a beautiful ride, do some work and arrive refreshed is the dream of great train travel. But we continue to be in thrall to the automobile in this country. And therefore, our investment in train service is really, really terrible.

Karen Christensen 04:19 So if someone is listening in another part of the country who doesn't know, the northeast, or if someone elsewhere in the world is listening to this, can you give us a bit of background on Vermont, and its relationship you to, to the big cities that are not from western US point of view all that far away? But what is it like to if you have to drive, say to New York, um, I think that, that, that that might be useful to know. And then we'll talk about some details of your access and experience.

Kevin Ellis 05:02 Sure. If you're going to drive to say New York City or Red Bank, New Jersey, where my where I grew up, it's a six hour drive. And that's if the traffic is good. And then, you know, you have to deal with all of the the interstate 95 Corridor unpredictability. You know, once you hit say, oh, New Haven, Connecticut, after New Haven, and between between New Haven and New York, it is a completely unpredictable situation that can turn into a traffic nightmare in seconds. And so a six hour drive can turn into a nine hour drive. Oh, in a few minutes. And so and so when you live in Montpelier, the state capital of the state of Vermont you're thinking oh, I'll just get on Amtrak and do some work read a book and just enjoy the beautiful scenery you know, as I go down, in fact, there are two Amtrak lines within shouting distance of me one is in my town and the other one is over on the other side of the state in Rutland, Vermont, which takes you down your direction the Hudson River Valley Yes, yes. Which is a little faster and if you know if you're willing to drive the hour to Rutland and park your car you can get to New York and five hours so we have this weird luxury and but as you discover when you get on both trains you know if you if you're going from say, Oh, I don't know. You know somewhere in Europe, you know, you know, London to, you know, Paris, I don't know how long it takes but it's

Karen Christensen 06:53 fast. It's an hour and a half. Yes.

Kevin Ellis 06:57 You could be there for lunch. Yeah, no, and it on the two trains that go to go to New York or DC, frankly, from Vermont, it is from Montpelier to New York City, it is an eight hour train trip, if there are no freight trains in front of you, and if all works well. And then to Washington, DC, it is an eight hour I'm sorry, it's a 12 hour ride. And so it just struck me that this is this is developed world stuff. I mean, this is just, you know, and it wasn't this isn't one of those things that was sort of revealed by the pandemic, I mean, this has been going on for generations. And I mean, we can get into the details of sort of my experience on the train. But this is a this is a complete result of, of a lack of investment in train travel, in favor of the automobile and trucking lobby. And it's really, I think, as simple as that, you know, we've got to invest in these things. If I could be in, in New York and three hours, from Montpelier Vermont, I'd be going once a month, I'd be doing business meetings, I'd be visiting family, I'd be and it's just it's nigh impossible to do that.

Karen Christensen 08:32 And, and in the 21st century, in the richest country on the planet, it's a little odd that we have such as you said, embarrassing train service.

Kevin Ellis 08:46 Oh, it's embarrassing. It's really embarrassing when you can, you know, in Japan, or China. I mean, you know, we're, we're obviously in this politically polarized time right now, or, you know, the right wingers love to beat up on China, which, you know, nobody likes to beat up on China more than me, but they've got trade service that, that makes us

Karen Christensen 09:06 The service there is fabulous. And people focus on an ice I do a lot of work in China. And, and, and, and the attitude towards it. Just as an example, I went to Guangzhou, which is like the distance from New York to Chicago. It's a good long way. Yeah. Well, I think it's Washington Chicago, actually. And, and I flew, but I was four hours late, because flights there are delayed a lot. And my friend said, Why didn't you take the train? I hadn't even thought about looking for a train that doesn't. But the most, you know, the Most Popular The Most ridden route in the world is between Shanghai and Beijing. And it you know, it's packed and it's fast. And it's just part of life now.

Kevin Ellis 10:04 Yeah, that's right. I mean, you know, this, the list of it's in my blog, but the list of issues is so long. I mean, the, the, the food, for instance, is just terrible.

Karen Christensen 10:22 So tell us to sort of start where did you catch the train on this memorable day when you decided to, to record your experiences for the historical record?

Kevin Ellis 10:35 And mind you, I'm a huge fan of trains and I'm a huge fan of Amtrak I'm not I don't want to beat up on the poor people of Amtrak. It's just that they have it's clear that they have no money no investment and it's just I think the whole thing is badly managed. I mean, you get on in Montpelier, the state capitol. A cute little train station, you know, you know, half the people waiting to get on the train. You know, in Vermont, we all think we know each other because it's so small. Yeah. And you get on the station and it's great. And then you realize that everything is wrong. The train is going 40 miles an hour. It is stopping at you know, every little hamlet to pick up one or two passengers. The cafe car is open and it is a it's a it's almost impossible to get any food that is even approaches healthy. The person serving the food is you know, sort of underpaid and overworked, kind of angry, resentful of being there. They obviously have union issues.

Karen Christensen 12:00 What do you get to eat? What's on offer on an Amtrak train?

Kevin Ellis 12:05 Oh, there's a there's a, everything is encased in plastic. There's a you know, a sticky bun and a plastic bag that they'll pop into, into a microwave. There's a there's a sandwich wrapped in plastic, they'll pop into a microwave and a cup of coffee in a Styrofoam cup. You know, this just

Karen Christensen 12:29 sounds like the end of the 70s. Yeah, no,

Kevin Ellis 12:33 it's exactly right. You feel like you're at about 1973. And nothing's changed. Now, the one, the one good part of the trip was that the train car was fairly modern. The seats were, you know, leather, and the seats were clean, they didn't have that disgusting sort of cloth seat cover where you know, that absorb the sweat from every passenger front of you. And you know that so the train cars, I mean, they don't, they can't hold a candle to train cars in any other country in the world. But these train cars were by American standards, fairly new. So that was a plus. But you know, you're six hours into it, and you hit New Haven, Connecticut. And I'm sorry, I can’t remember. It's either New Haven or Hartford. You know, the other problem with this is for as you know, freight trains have priority.

Karen Christensen 13:38 They don't legally have priority, correct? Right? They take priority, but they don't actually merit it on the basis of the law.

Kevin Ellis 13:50 There you go. And so you're forever sort of stopping on the tracks, waiting for some freight train to go by you or unload its cargo or whatever. And then it's either Hartford in New Haven, I can't remember. You stop, you back up, you switch train engines. And then you, you know, wait for 20 minutes, and then you're on your way again, and in both New Haven and Hartford. There's the 20 minute delays, where you have to do the crew changes, the engine changes and you know, I get it, but all I can folk all you all I can think of is the lost opportunity. You know, you could you could be in New York in three hours from Vermont, or Washington DC in four or five hours. The economic benefits of all of that would be incalculable.

Karen Christensen 14:59 Yeah. And it would spread benefits throughout the, you know, spread benefits from the urban regions to rural regions, where many of us like to live but still carry on professional jobs.

Kevin Ellis 15:12 I might do. And nothing has revealed that more than the pandemic I mean, the ability now to work remotely, and your employers or your clients, acceptance of the fact that it no longer matters where you are. You know, I hammer my children who live in big cities, they live in DC, New York and LA. And I'm always saying to them, it doesn't matter where you are anymore. So come visit for Yeah, you know, I have a son who runs a podcast studio in New York City. And we're always saying, hey, pop up for the weekend. And he's saying, you want me to get on an eight hour train?

Kevin Ellis 15:58 yeah, cuts people off. Yeah, that's right.

Karen Christensen 16:01 And, of course, you're talking about trains. The advantage of trains for people working remotely, or working in a hybrid way is that you can work on the train. I mean, that's a big selling point. How did you find it working?

Kevin Ellis 16:15 Out? Oh, terrible. I made terrible. Just and again, I say this with all affection for Amtrak and trains in the mountain they're trying to climb. The internet's terrible. It's really slow. You cannot do a business call. You're on the phone for three minutes, and then it cuts out. Your emails incredibly slow. I mean, it's just you totally give up and read it read a novel. I mean,

Karen Christensen 16:47 I'm, I'm actually taking, I'm going to have a nine hour Amtrak ride tomorrow to Pennsylvania to see some train cars. And I've never taken an Amtrak train ride that long. And actually, I have, I've been kind of putting together the work to do on the trade, making sure I have a fair amount of paper. And stuff I can do offline because I assumed that that might be the case.

Kevin Ellis 17:16 Yeah, it is, you know, you it's six hours is one thing, or five hours that you can, you can manage. But I'll tell you when you get to about New Haven with and then you realize you've got three hours left of this of this just brutal train ride, you just begin to you know, I don't know what something about when you cross the five hour threshold, essentially, you just get

Karen Christensen 17:45 really drives to. Was your train on time?

Kevin Ellis 17:50 Oh, it's about half an hour late. But the I'll tell you, you arrive for non New Yorkers, you know, you arrive, you used to arrive in the, the disgusting, Penn Station. Yeah. Train hub, they've now opened as you probably know, the Moynihan train Hall across the street and the old post office. And after this brutal train ride, you get out and you're in this absolutely gorgeous new train hall that is futuristic and wonderful. And it's got coffee shops and good food. And it's clean and wide open with beautiful sun coming in the windows and you just feel renewed, and you say, oh my god, this is what is possible. You know, just a modern experience. Where, where you where you can work and be human. Yeah, and, and Amtrak is, is just so back in 1970. And I you know, I blame the politics. It's just and the and the tyranny of the automobile that has taken over society.

Karen Christensen 19:07 But I think you're what you're talking about, there's really important about having a vision for what, what it should be like not in every detail. But we don't just want kind of clunky old trains, we want something that's compatible with a, you know, a new modern station. Actually, the trains I'm going to see in Pennsylvania are battery powered electric trains that are can be used on short lines, I'm hoping that they will prove suitable for our line in the Berkshires for a demo project. But they would be modern looking, you know, and quiet. So, so definitely thinking about that. I'm curious about, you know, if you can tell us a little bit about what you think how Vermonters feel about train service and being connected. You know, Vermont's a state that punches above its weight nationally. Yes. And so I'm an entity, you know, it's a very green state in various ways. But what you know, so what what, what might we learn from the needs and interests and vision of Vermont?

Kevin Ellis 20:28 Well, I think, you know, I think Vermont is fairly educated and yearns for the types of modern conveniences that are that are, that are here, and are coming with a mobile, remote electrified society. We are the home of Bill McKibben on climate change. And you know, our former Governor Howard Dean was a huge train advocate. He actually put aside a bunch of money to start a commuter line between some towns and Burlington the biggest city that that evaporated because when a Republican got elected they did away with that funding. So I you know, your Vermont leads in a lot of ways and I you know, we you can see the hope on the faces of, of all of us when we sort of bored Amtrak at our train station, we realize it took it took six minutes to get here. In the car, you know, your spouse dropped you off or whatever. And it's, you're independent, and you're, you're working and, and then as you just get into the trip, it's just gets more and more depressing. And it's just such a, it's so tragic because the opposite the economic opportunity, the human opportunity to remake into a post to rebuild into a post pandemic successful economy is staring us right in the face, and we just won't seize the opportunity.

Karen Christensen 22:19 Well, let's hope that we can find ways to seize it. And I really appreciate your, you know, I think to have that very specific example of what's wrong, but also a sense of the vision that we need to inculcate in those who are going to make, you know, actually make the decisions would be is really important. I think it's hard for people to visualize what the future you know, a better future will look like. And so that's helpful.

Kevin Ellis 22:49 It's, you're right, it's very difficult to build the kind of political support for the dollars that need to be invested in a three hour train ride from Montpelier, Vermont to New York City. But boy, once it happens, it's kind of like the kind of like the iPhone, or that mind Moynihan train Hall. I mean, once you present it to people, there's no going back, once you present people with a with a really good alternative. There is no turning around, they will get on that train.

Karen Christensen 23:24 And that's modeled a very, you know, there are plenty of very similar situations in the United States that, that and I like to think that, you know, there's some potential for, you know, for efficiencies, because we want to do the same kind of things. So we need some, we need some good models. And that route is certainly an attractive one to think about. So thank you very much for joining me today.

Kevin Ellis 23:52 My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Karen Christensen 23:54 I'm glad to have had a chance to, to meet you online. And, you know, at some point, we'll, we'll maybe cross paths that Moynihan train station. Thanks very much. Sure. Thank you.

ENDS

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Advocate explains that corridor collaboration is the key to regional rail

In this episode of Train Time, we spoke to Meredith Richards, president of the Virginia Rail Policy Institute and a member of the Board of Directors of the Rail Passengers Association. She explains how she helped build a statewide coalition to connect, and reconnect, Virginia by passenger rail. She tells an instructive story about the way Amtrak ticket allocation left Virginia business passengers without train service even though trains stopped in their towns en route to Washington DC. Her account includes details that are relevant to those in other regions, including the Northeast. She explains how important it is to build a coalition, to change the way transportation funding is allocated, and to ensure that short-distance, regional service is given due attention.

Meredith Richards is a former Charlottesville City Councilor and Vice Mayor and today is president of the Virginia Rail Policy Institute and a member of the Board of Directors of the Rail Passengers Association. In 2005, Meredith established a Charlottesville-based non-profit to advocate for enhanced passenger rail for the Virginia Crescent Corridor and subsequently organized a consortium of twenty-two political jurisdictions along the US29 corridor into the Piedmont Rail Coalition. Their collective, multi-year effort succeeded in bringing the Lynchburg-DC Northeast Regional, the first new passenger rail service for the corridor in over a half-century and Virginia’s first state-sponsored intercity passenger train, to the corridor. She led a successful effort to significantly increase transit’s formula share of the state transportation fund and while serving on Governor Mark Warner’s Commission on Rail Enhancement for the 21st Century, she helped establish Virginia’s first dedicated fund for rail capital projects. More recently (2021), as a co-chair of Virginians for High-Speed Rail, she helped build public support for establishing the Commonwealth Rail Fund as a permanent division of the state transportation fund and for the newly established Virginia Passenger Rail Authority. In 2020, Virginians for High-Speed Rail created an annual Legislative Achievement Award in Meredith’s name.

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