The LTL Show: Recent Episodes

Jack Moore - London Tech Leaders

The LTL Show is our animated podcast, where we invite some of the leading names in technology to talk all about their experiences, backgrounds, learnings, personal development and all things tech!It promises to be informative, entertaining and original, and we can't wait to share it with you.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back for Season 3, Episode 11. This week David and Sophie are joined by Richard Tworek, CTO at Riverbed Technology, for a wide-ranging conversation on observability, tool consolidation, and why enterprise AI still needs a human in the loop. Plus the Flip Side makes its return, decided for the first time by the toss of a Nicaraguan coin.

This episode covers the fallout from private Claude conversations turning up publicly online, and what that means for leaders who might not want their late-night ChatGPT queries seeing the light of day. Anthropic has admitted that Claude has broken out of its sandbox on three separate occasions since April, raising fresh questions about accountability and Sam Altman himself is now talking about deliberately pacing AI development. The Forbes Technology Council weigh in on outdated leadership advice tech leaders should ditch and David makes the case for why he might just be a modern, forward-thinking leader after all. There's also a look at a London hacker house betting against Silicon Valley's 996 hustle culture, and the silly news of the week: two people - a YouTuber and a Canadian politician - caught reading their AI-generated scripts.

David and Sophie sit down with Richard Tworek, CTO at Riverbed, to talk tool sprawl, why monitoring and observability has become a boardroom conversation rather than just an IT one, and why he believes vibe coding is brilliant for proof-of-concepts but a different game entirely at enterprise scale. Richard's advice for tech leaders navigating the unknown: build flexible platforms, put guardrails around automation, and always keep a human in the loop.

And finally, the Flip Side returns - decided by a coin toss - to debate the question: are we building technology for humans, or asking humans to adapt to technology? David argues one side, Sophie the other, and by the end, even David isn't sure he picked the winning argument.

Secure your spot at the London Tech Leaders Summit here: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/ltls2026/register

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 10 of Season 3, and this week David and Sophie have a double guest special — two brilliant conversations with senior technology leaders, a packed news agenda and no Flip Side, which means it will be back with a vengeance next week.

This episode covers the UK's new AI minister Kanishka Narayan — and why everybody in the know seems to think he's exactly the right person for the job, even if scrapping the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology remains a controversial call. An OpenAI agent broke out of its sandbox, performed over 17,000 actions in under two days and hacked its way into Hugging Face — and David thinks it was a stunt. Google has reported its first ever negative free cashflow since 2004, Tesla is back in the red, and both are blaming AI spending — but the markets aren't buying the story. Monday.com joins a long list of companies citing AI as a reason for layoffs, and the Financial Times finds that those companies have underperformed the NASDAQ by almost 10% in the 30 days following their announcements. There is also a fascinating discussion about AI distillation — and the uncomfortable irony of companies who scraped the internet to build their models now accusing others of stealing their IP. And the silly news of the week is Vibe OS — an operating system with no code base whatsoever, where everything is hallucinated on the fly.

David and Sophie sits down with Etienne de Bruin, founder of 7CTOs, for a conversation about his CTO levels framework — a tool used by thousands of technology leaders worldwide to assess the health of their technical organisation and work out where to focus next. Etienne makes the controversial case that the CTO role is not a technical role but a business role — and explains why CEOs tend to find his framework more useful than CTOs do.

Sophie also speaks with Anoop Tripathi, CTO at Sauce Labs, about what AI is really doing to technology leadership. Anoop has 32 years of experience across telecoms, networking, security and automation — and brings a refreshingly grounded perspective on measuring outcomes not just outputs, why engineering managers now need to orchestrate human and digital agents, and why he believes AI is making everyone a senior engineer whether they like it or not.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 9 of Season 3, and this week David is fresh from his daughter's wedding, throwing caution to the wind and thinking about a curry. Normal service has resumed.

This episode covers Andy Burnham's first day as Prime Minister and the rumoured scrapping of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology - and whether that's actually as bad as the headline suggests. The San Francisco mayor has reached the end of his tether with Waymo after a string of incidents including driverless cars blocking streets on the 4th of July, gridlocking the city during a power cut and driving into crime scenes. China's AI startup Moonshot launches Kimi K3 with 2.8 trillion parameters and challenges every major American AI firm. A not-for-profit called Current AI is building open public AI infrastructure in 22 Indian languages for offline use - and David asks whether not-for-profit can ever really compete with the trillionaires. And in the stupidest tech news of the week, Apple and Google are quietly profiting from deepfake apps that are illegal to use but perfectly legal to download.

David and Sophie also dig into the leadership characteristics that have stuck with them throughout their careers. Admitting when you don't know something. Finding inspiration in the people above you. Staying calm when everything breaks at three in the morning. Balancing humility with confidence - a word David cannot stand. Empowering your team without becoming a clone factory. And knowing when to step in before someone sticks their finger in the electric socket.

And in the Flip Side, David and Sophie debate whether the UK should appoint a dedicated minister for AI. David says no. Sophie says yes. David flips. They land somewhere sensible, as is becoming tradition.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 8 of Season 3, and this week David and Sophie are recording through what appears to be the hottest summer on record - though neither of them has air conditioning, so they're making do.

This episode covers Satya Nadella's five point plan for enterprise companies to stop giving away their most valuable asset every time they use an AI model - and David asks whether it's a bit rich coming from the company that invented the whole thing. Apple is suing OpenAI after an ex employee allegedly walked out with proprietary data still on his laptop - and David has some thoughts on non-compete clauses, data loss protection and what happens when a hired gun leaves with the ammunition. There is also the curious case of Bill Gates' daughter's company, which raised $40 million from celebrity investors including Chloe Kardashian and Hailey Bieber - and then got caught cookie stuffing. David recommends getting an enterprise architect. And Elon Musk and Sam Altman are at it again - this time arguing about data centres in space, which David has helpfully suggested could also solve climate change. Patent pending.

The main conversation this week is one that will resonate with every senior technology leader in the audience - what actually happens after you stop being a CTO/Senior Technology Leader? David shares four years of hard won experience as a fractional consultant, interim leader and NHS non-executive director. What he missed, what surprised him, how he got every single piece of work, why posting on LinkedIn twice a week got him absolutely not a sausage, and why he eventually went back to a permanent role. Sophie asks the hard questions. David gives good testimony.

And in the Flip Side, David and Sophie debate whether AI is making engineers faster and worse at the same time. David argues yes. Sophie argues no. They both end up agreeing that coding is essentially solved - it's the thinking bit that isn't. Watch out for your acceleration whiplash.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 7 of Season 3, and David and Sophie are recording in what appears to be the hottest summer on record - and as it turns out, that's actually relevant to the news agenda.

This episode covers the impact of extreme heat on critical technology infrastructure - from the Eiffel Tower closing early due to a transformer blowout to NHS trusts declaring critical incidents because their scanners and lab equipment couldn't cope. Solar panels, it turns out, are also struggling in the heat. David has a request for every technology leader listening.

There is also a significant update on the AI layoff story that has been running all season. Mark Zuckerberg told Meta staff that agentic AI development hadn't accelerated as hoped - and a survey of 600 HR leaders reveals that two thirds of organisations that made AI-driven layoffs were already rehiring within six months, with 30% finding that rehiring cost more than the original savings. David and Sophie ask what tech leaders should take from this.

Sophie and David then speak to Liwen Knight-Zhang, founder of Waivern, for a conversation about AI regulation that manages to make compliance genuinely interesting. Liwen breaks down the EU AI Act, what it means in practice for organisations developing and deploying AI, and why compliance is no longer someone else's problem - it is a quality standard baked into the product itself.

And in the Flip Side, David and Sophie debate which C-suite role is currently under the most threat from AI. David makes the case for the CMO. Sophie disagrees - and argues that the CPO may be the first to feel the squeeze as engineering and product thinking start to collapse into one function. It gets lively.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 6 of Season 3, and David and Sophie are both back in the hot seat - tanned, reunited and ready to dig into a packed agenda.

This episode covers Trump's threat to impose a 100% tariff on any European country that introduces a digital services tax on American tech giants - and asks whether it's time for tech leaders to start buying homegrown. RAM prices are rising in what some are calling Ramageddon, and AI is getting the blame. Ford has quietly hired back the human engineers it replaced with AI after the robots failed to match their skills - and David has some advice for any engineer worried about their job. Anthropic's Mythos gets another update, with more than 100 US government agencies now granted access. OpenAI's Sam Altman launches Patch the Planet to fix the open source vulnerabilities that Anthropic's models were built to expose. And Europe gets its own answer to MANGOES - it's called BRIOCHE, and Sophie is very much on board with that.

Sophie also sits down with Amul Batra, co-founder of Northcoders and MD of Counter, for a genuinely fascinating conversation about why the standard consulting model does its clients a disservice - and what a better one looks like. Amul also makes a compelling case for why junior developers aren't disappearing, they're just changing - and introduces a phrase that might be the most important reframe in AI adoption right now: not human in the loop, but human in the lead.

And in the Flip Side, David and Sophie ask the question every tech leader should be sitting with right now - in five years, what will companies realise they completely got wrong about building tech teams? Sophie argues for wholesale organisational redesign. David argues for not throwing the mainframe out with the bathwater. They meet somewhere in the middle, as is tradition.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back, and this week Sophie is taking a well-earned break. David is joined by the returning Mal Minhas for a packed episode of news, a fascinating guest conversation and a debut Flip Side argument that ends - as these things often do - somewhere in the middle.

This episode covers the G7 summit where the world's most powerful AI bosses told world leaders in no uncertain terms to stop leaving governance to the labs. The US government bans Anthropic from releasing its newest and most powerful models, citing national security concerns - and David wonders if it's just very effective marketing. Apple launches Siri AI and quietly reminds everyone why you should never count them out. Google halves the price of its AI subscription. And Keir Starmer resigns as Prime Minister, which raises the not entirely trivial question of what a new government means for UK tech.

David and Mal are also joined by Allard Pheifer, Global Sustainability Lead at CHG Meridian, for a conversation that will make you rethink everything you assumed about sustainability in IT. Allard reframes it entirely - not as a compliance burden but as a value creation opportunity - and shares how he built an AI powered tool that lets account managers build a full business case for a customer in under sixty seconds.

And in the Flip Side, David and Mal debate whether the biggest mistake technology leaders make is hiring for technical excellence - and whether character should come before code. They disagree, then agree, then meet somewhere in the middle. As is tradition.

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The CTO Lens Podcast does something a little different this week. David is away, and Sophie has taken the opportunity to bring together three brilliant women working at the sharp end of AI for a conversation that is honest, practical and long overdue.

Joining Sophie are Hema Purohit, founder of Lotus Advisory and Consulting and a veteran of Microsoft and Google with three decades in tech; Stephanie Stacey, founder of Miss AI and the UK AI User Groups, and former lead on the NHS England relationship at Microsoft; and Alina Timofeeva, a tech advisor driving AI and digital transformation based in Saudi Arabia.

Together they cover the biggest myths people confidently repeat about AI, why Europe's organisations are losing out by chasing shiny tools instead of building foundations, where real leverage is starting to emerge, and the skills that will actually matter in the next five years. There is also a conversation about power, capital and ownership - and whether women should be joining AI companies, owning AI infrastructure, or something else entirely.

It is a wide ranging, refreshingly candid discussion - with a story about an AI-induced deportation that you will not hear anywhere else.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 3 of Season 3, and this week David and Sophie have a packed agenda - news, a brilliant guest and a Flip Side debate that gets a little complicated when Sophie switches sides mid-argument.

This episode covers Meta's customer support chatbot being exploited to steal Instagram accounts - and what every tech leader should take from it about deploying agents without really knowing what they can do. Europe's AI startups face an existential reckoning as token costs rise. OpenAI expands beyond developers to target knowledge workers. ChatGPT confirms ads are coming. An Anthropic co-founder reveals 80% of Claude's code was written by Claude itself - and 100% is possible within two years. A company backed by Sam Altman raises half a billion to bring nuclear fusion to the grid by 2028. And the silliest news of the week - a burglar uses a Waymo as a getaway car to steal yoga clothes in San Francisco, and the police still haven't caught them.

David and Sophie also sit down with Simon Hudson, fractional CTO and long-time London Tech Leaders community member, for a frank conversation about the senior tech leadership job market - ageism, inflated CTO titles, why networks matter more than ever, and what experience really means when AI claims to have all the answers.

And in The Flip Side, David and Sophie debate whether the rising cost of intelligence should be passed on to consumers or absorbed as the cost of doing business. Sophie argues for. David folds his arms and says no. Sophie then crosses the floor mid-debate - and David declares victory.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with another packed episode. David's fresh from a stag weekend involving combat archery, a giant inflatable and some questionable social media evidence, while Sophie's been spotting baby moorhens. Normal service has resumed.

This episode covers NVIDIA's new AI chip for personal computers - and what that means for every CTO's laptop refresh plan. King's College London becomes the first UK academic team to access Google's quantum chip Willow, and David and Sophie ask whether quantum computing is finally becoming real or still a solution searching for a problem. GitHub Copilot switches to token-based pricing and some developers are seeing costs jump from $50 to $3,000 a month overnight. There's also a deep dive into token maxing - including Amazon's ill-fated internal AI leaderboard that had to be shut down - humanoid robots arriving on BMW's factory floor with a three-minute battery break, and the growing NEET crisis as automation starts to reshape the jobs market for young people. Plus a quick IPO update on SpaceX's surprise government contract and Anthropic's $65 billion raise ahead of a potential public float.

Sophie sits down with Tris Bates, Head of Mobile Engineering at New Day and driving force behind NS London - Europe's largest Apple developer community - for a fascinating conversation about what AI tools are actually doing to mobile engineering in practice, why everyone wants an app, and why seeing through walls using WiFi might not be as far off as you think.

And in this week's Flip Side, David and Sophie debate whether the best engineering leaders of the next decade won't come from engineering at all. David argues for the motion. Sophie dismantles him. David awards her a 60-40 victory and hints he might deserve a pay rise.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back - and Season 3 is here. David and Sophie return refreshed, ready to dig into a packed news agenda, a brand new segment and some big questions about where tech leadership is headed next.

This episode covers the Pope weighing in on AI and the culture of power driving Silicon Valley, Elon Musk losing his lawsuit against OpenAI in under two hours and still claiming victory, and Anthropic raising eyebrows by quietly acquiring and shutting down Stainless - infrastructure used by almost every major AI company. There's also Meta settling with a US school district over social media's impact on children's mental health, Waymo's robotaxis getting swept away in floodwater, and in IPO land, Oura, OpenAI and SpaceX all make moves - with SpaceX's prospectus featuring dinosaurs and an admission they may never be profitable.

David and Sophie also introduce a brand new segment - The Flip Side - where they take a controversial tech statement and argue both sides. First up: a slide from the Anthropic Claude Code Conference suggesting the future is one product manager to half a developer. Leaner teams or just buggier software?

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The CTO Lens Podcast wraps up Season 2 with Episode 20 - and David and Sophie are going out with a bang. Twenty episodes in, they reflect on what they've covered, what's coming in Season 3, and why the world of tech leadership has never been more interesting - or more complicated.

This episode covers Anthropic's Mythos model making headlines again - this time for falling into the hands of a Discord channel of curious hackers who really shouldn't have had access. Apple bids farewell to Tim Cook and welcomes John Turnus as the new CEO, bringing with him a refreshingly humble philosophy on leadership. There's also a juicy Apple bug fix that will interest anyone who's ever deleted a message they'd rather forget. David and Sophie also dig into the Google Cloud Next conference - new AI chips, a Workspace Intelligence suite and Gemini's enterprise agent platform - and ask whether Google has simply been asleep at the wheel or playing a very long game.

On the Elon front, Tesla is upping its capex to $25 billion, millions of owners are facing unexpected hardware upgrades, and a Waymo car drove through a police cordon in North London - though there's a twist. David also makes the case for insourcing tech talent and asks whether the UK could build its own Silicon Valley if it really wanted to.

The big conversation this episode is one that's been bubbling all season - what happens to consultants and fractional workers when AI makes them 10x faster? Should they charge more, less, or invent an entirely new model? David may or may not have accidentally invented one live on air.

The mid-episode game returns for its season finale - who will clinch the title? And in the listener mailbag, the team tackle whether anyone can ever truly curate AI, and when - if ever - AI processing will run out of power.

To give us feedback on the CTO Lens Podcast, you can complete this form: https://tinyurl.com/ctolenspod

We'd really value any comments you had to improve the podcast in any way.

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 19, and this week David and Sophie are firing on all cylinders with a packed news agenda and a guest who really knows his way around a data pipeline.

This episode covers Roblox's controversial facial analysis age checks - and whether that's really the best we can do for child safety online. The UK's AI minister Liz Kendall gets the David and Sophie treatment after it emerged she doesn't actually use AI in her job. Sweden's decision to ditch screens and go back to pens and paper in classrooms raises some uncomfortable questions about where tech actually belongs. Allbirds' spectacular pivot from eco-friendly footwear to AI compute infrastructure gets a thorough reality check. And Tinder and Zoom want to scan your eyeball to prove you're human - with Sam Altman's fingerprints all over it.

David and Sophie also sit down with Shamim Mirzai, Head of Data Engineering and AI at Atheneum, for a grounded and genuinely fascinating conversation about how software, platform and data teams are evolving - who owns what, where the friction lives, and why your data engineering team might just be the most strategically important people in your organisation right now. Shamim brings decades of experience across banking, shipping, hospitality and tech - including a memorable stint at Mumsnet - and some refreshingly practical thinking on what it actually takes to make AI initiatives work at scale.

And in this week's listener mailbag, David and Sophie tackle the questions keeping tech leaders up at night - do we still need project managers, who's accountable when AI writes bad code, and should engineers be paid more for doing 5x the work with AI? As ever, they don't always have the answers, but they're asking the right questions.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders
Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 18, and this one's got plenty to dig into. David and Sophie are back in their respective remote setups - but that doesn't mean things are any less lively.

This episode covers a cyberattack that forced Northern Irish school kids back into classrooms during Easter - and raises a bigger question about the risk of centralising all your tech on a single supplier. OpenAI's four-day week proposal gets the David and Sophie treatment (spoiler: David is not convinced). There's also Sam Altman's home targeted by a molotov cocktail, the Claude Mythos rumour mill - including a rogue AI that allegedly emailed its own engineer - and a new company called rentahuman.ai that might just be the most honest business model in tech right now.

Sophie sits down with Milena Nikolic, Founder of Heywa Labs, for a fascinating conversation about what "agentic" actually means, why text-in text-out is just the beginning of AI-native product design, and why brands should be very worried about becoming just a line in someone else's table. Milena brings serious credentials - over a decade at Google and four years as CTO of Trainline - and some genuinely fresh thinking on where UX is headed.

And in this week's listener mailbag - a new segment - David and Sophie tackle the big questions: Will AI take our jobs? Are CTOs the CEOs of the future? And can you really defeat big tech by just... stopping? Plus the mid-episode game returns with a humbling round of "How Old Am I?" featuring child tech prodigies that will make you question everything you've done with your life.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders
Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/l...

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 17, and this week's edition is packed! Oh, and yes - this week's episode was filmed in person. David and Sophie are confirmed humans.

This episode features China's obsession with an open-source AI tool nicknamed "the Lobster" (aka Claude), Anthropic's token costs spiralling out of control - and an accidental leak of 500,000 lines of source code, plus a two-brother team on track for $1.8 billion in revenue with no big team, just AI. David and Sophie cut through the noise on the week's biggest tech stories.

We also bring you an exclusive pre-recorded conversation with David and Justin Reock (Deputy CTO at DX). Both dive deep into AI adoption inside engineering teams - what's actually working, what the data really shows, and why enterprises are quietly outperforming startups on AI productivity.

And the question circling every engineering org right now from our disaster diaries; Are we actually building a better team with AI, or just avoiding the harder conversation about what we really value? This week's diary entry hits close to home.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders
Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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The CTO Lens Podcast is back with Episode 16, and this week's edition is packed!

Meta vs. Google in court. AI reshaping video production. A Lloyd's Bank data breach update. David and Sophie cut through the noise on the week's biggest tech stories.

Then things get really interesting. We're bringing you an exclusive fireside recording straight from our London Tech Leaders event - a razor-sharp conversation on ROI from AI with Lyubomira Dimitrova (Senior Technology Leader) and Scott Eivers (CEO, Datatonic). Don't sleep on this one.

And the big question everyone in tech is quietly asking? Will the CTO role even exist in 3 years? OakNorth Bank's own Tom Harris gives his take (taken from the panel session at the same event) - and David and Sophie don't hold back with theirs.

Plus, don't forget the mid-episode game (which this week is titled 'Around the World 🌍').

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders
Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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In this week’ episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, David and Sophie begin by discussing the week's latest news, including budgets for AI and Quantum Computing, books being written using AI, Pokemon Go and Amazon’s new smart phone!

Both then (as part of the leadership segment) discuss the future of the technology workforce, including the responsibilities that senior leaders have, how education may need to accommodate AI in a better way and what does the future workforce actually look like in 5-10 years from a technology standpoint.

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game (titled Name That University) and a disaster diary entry all around effective objective setting!

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders

Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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In this week’ episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, David and Sophie begin by discussing the week's latest news, including delayed Royal Navy deployments, airport face scans, bank apps showing other users' transactions and much more!

Both are then joined by Andrew Murphy (Head of Engineering and Product at Wickes) to discuss how AI is reshaping the software development lifecycle. Andrew offers some fantastic insights into the pros and cons of recent AI implementation, how leaders are engaging with AI, and how he foresees the effects of AI in three to five years time (amongst a whole host of other informative conversation).

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game (titled Battle of the Blanks) and a disaster diary entry which covers accountability at C-Suite level.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders
Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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In this week’ episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, David is back and joins Sophie to discuss the latest in tech innovations and news.

Both share insights on leadership, strategy, and the evolving role of technology leaders in organisations. From understanding the importance of strategic thinking to the future skills needed for CTOs, this episode offers valuable guidance for tech leaders aiming to make a broader impact.

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game (titled Buzzword or Baloney) and a disaster diary entry which covers team conflict.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders
Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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In this week’s episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, Sophie Valentine is joined by guest host Samantha Burrows, in an International Women’ Day week special.

They explore the significance of culture in leadership, especially for women+ in tech, and continue with news on the ethical implications of AI in defence, the future of AI and its potential economic consequences, innovative AI projects in the civil service, and some light-hearted tech updates.

They are also joined by Jeremy Adcock and Josh Silverstone of Hartley Ultrafast. They are building the world’s fastest decision making machines, bringing artificial intelligence to the scale of single nanoseconds for the first time. This was a fantastic conversation and one not to be missed. Find out more here: https://hartleyultrafast.com/

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game and Sophie and Sam discuss what International Women’s Day means to them.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders

Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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In this week’ episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, David Crawford and Sophie Valentine discuss various topics including social media court cases, recent AI trials and tribulations, and the emergence of Seedance, an app that can be used to generate Hollywood style videos.

They are also joined by Otto Hilska (CEO of Swarmia) who shares insights on engineering effectiveness and the integration of AI tools in organisations, highlighting the importance of teams and the role of AI in enhancing productivity.

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game and rather than a disaster diary entry this week, Sophie and David discuss the top five roles they would choose to build the perfect tech team in 2026.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders

Link for London Tech Leaders Engineering Summit: https://registration.crowdcomms.com/londontech2026

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In this week’ episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, David Crawford and Sophie Valentine discuss various topics including their Valentine's weekend experiences, the viral success of their podcast clip on digital sovereignty, updates on the UK Online Safety Bill and the implications of AI in online safety, and discuss recent AI advancements in large corporations.

They are also joined by Jon Sheehan (Co-Founder of Burns Sheehan) to discuss recruitment in the tech industry. They speak about the evolving role of CTOs, the challenges in the current job market, and strategies for positioning oneself effectively in a competitive landscape. They emphasise the importance of networking, patience, and understanding market dynamics while navigating career transitions.

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game (titled "The CTO Winter Olympics”) and a disaster diary entry which is centered around becoming ‘an accidental’ CTO.

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders

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In this week's episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, Sophie and David discuss various topics including France getting rid of Zoom, AI robots and the recent AI Gold Rush. They also are joined by Lee Provoost (CTO of fintech company Flagstone) who discusses his journey of falling out of love and falling back in love with the CTO role.

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game (titled ‘Touchdown Tech Leaders’) and a disaster diary entry which encompasses getting the board on side when it comes to technology.

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In this week's episode of the CTO Lens Podcast, Sophie and David discuss various topics including AI training initiatives, Apple's sales trends, digital sovereignty, and the future of driverless cars. They also delve into the importance of incident management and organisational culture with guests Joe and Hamid from Uptime Labs, also sharing personal experiences of IT outages. The conversation emphasises the need for resilience in tech organisations and covers the metrics that can help measure success in incident management.

The episode concludes with a product angled mid-episode game (titled ‘Tech to the Top’).

Find out more about Uptime Labs: https://uptimelabs.io/

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events:https://luma.com/londontechleaders?k=c

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In this week’s episode of The CTO Lens Podcast, Sophie and David cover a wide range of topics. They dive into the challenges facing the gaming industry, youth social media regulations, and discuss the balance between big-picture thinking and attention to detail in leadership during our leadership focused segment.

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game (titled ‘Tech to the Top’) and a disaster diary, where the hosts reflect on whether Agile is still working?

Link for London Tech Leaders Upcoming Events: https://luma.com/londontechleaders?k=c

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In this week’s episode of the CTO Lens podcast, hosts Sophie Valentine and David Crawford delve into various topics, starting with the internet outage in Iran, AI generated singers and a discussion about Elon Musk's relationships and the implications of AI in our daily lives.

Sophie and David then welcome guest Hema Purohit, who brings her extensive experience in technology and leadership development to the conversation. Hema discusses her Leadership Essentials masterclass, emphasising the importance of visibility versus volume in career advancement for women. She highlights the need for women to take on riskier projects and build relationships with senior leaders to enhance their visibility and career prospects.

The episode concludes with the mid-episode game (titled ‘Tech or Fake’ and a disaster diary, where the hosts reflect on the build vs. buy dilemma in tech, providing insights on making informed decisions in product development.

Find out more about Hema here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hemapurohit/

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In this episode, Sophie and David discuss the latest developments in technology, including Nvidia's new AI platform for self-driving cars, the implications of ChatGPT in healthcare, and Musk's lawsuit against OpenAI.

Furthermore, the hosts discuss essential communication skills for modern leaders, emphasising the importance of active listening, empathy, and understanding different communication styles. They explore the challenges of communicating in a tech-driven environment, particularly with neurodiverse teams. Guest Ben Pearce shares insights on storytelling and frameworks for effective communication, highlighting the need for clarity and flexibility in interactions.

Finally, David and Sophie take part in the weekly mid-episode game (titled ‘Name That UK Tech City’) and also explore the challenges of transitioning into leadership roles and the importance of vulnerability in fostering team cohesion.

You can find out more about Ben Pearce here: https://www.elevatedyou.live/ctolens

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In this engaging conversation, Sophie Valentine and David Crawford reflect on their Christmas and New Year experiences, discussing the transition back to work and the challenges of disconnecting during the holidays. They delve into tech trends from 2025 and predictions for 2026, particularly focusing on the evolving landscape of AI and consumer technology. David and Sophie also discuss the evolution of IoT and health technology, emphasising the potential for innovative applications in health and communication. They explore the challenges of project management, particularly the early signs of project failure and the importance of communication in addressing these issues. The conversation highlights the need for transparency and proactive measures to ensure project success, ultimately advocating for a culture of open dialogue and accountability in teams. They also play the weekly mid-episode game, titled this week as 'The Resolution Race'!

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In this episode, David and Sophie discuss their Christmas preparations, share technology news highlights, and delve into the importance of giving advice to one's younger self. They also take part in the weekly 'Mid Episode Game' titled 'Guess The Year' and conclude with the 'Disaster Diaries' segment, which sparks conversation on the significance of team culture and the common struggles faced by new leaders in tech.

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In this episode of CTO Lens, hosts David Crawford and Sophie Valentine discuss personal updates, technology news, and the transition from CTO to CEO with guest Hywel Carver. They explore the challenges of maintaining a strong security culture during rapid growth, the importance of empathy in leadership, and the balance between innovation and security. The episode also features insights from a listener's disaster diary about security breaches and the need for organisational accountability.

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In this episode of CTO Lens, David Crawford and new co-host Sophie Valentine discuss the evolution of the podcast, play a fun game of 'Two Truths and a Lie', and dive into the recent tech budget and its implications for startups. They also explore key questions to ask CEOs during interviews for CTO roles, emphasizing the importance of understanding company challenges, team dynamics, and the role of technology in business. In this episode, the hosts engage in light-hearted discussions about Christmas traditions, travel plans, and the excitement of new car ownership. They introduce a fun mid-episode game that tests their knowledge, followed by a serious conversation about the challenges of explaining AI to non-technical board members. The conversation emphasises the importance of empathy, collaboration, and effective communication in technology leadership.

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 9 features Sarah Greasley, former Group CTO at Direct Line and AWS EMEA Director, who shares insights from her nearly four decades in technology. She discusses what defines a modern CTO — from trust, curiosity, and vision to balancing technical depth with strategic and commercial awareness. Sarah explores how storytelling and relationship-building are key to influencing at the C-suite level, and reflects on the growing diversity of CTO roles, from startups to enterprises. She also opens up about her transition into a portfolio career, the realities of becoming a Non-Executive Director, and the importance of mentoring and growing future tech leaders.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign up for our Women+ Tech Leaders event happening on the 13th of November!

https://www.londontechleaders.io/event/women-tech-leaders-dealing-with-executives-technical-and-non-technical/?e=1

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 8 features Matt Watson sharing insights from over 20 years in technology leadership. As the founder and former CTO of VinSolutions, and now CEO and co-founder of Fullscale, Matt reflects on his journey from software engineer to founder and author of Product Driven. He discusses the four key types of engineering leadership—product, technical, strategy, and operations—and why understanding your strengths is crucial to becoming an effective CTO. Matt also explores the growing intersection between engineering and product thinking, how AI and low-code tools are reshaping these roles, and the importance of courage, vision, and listening to customers as technology leaders. His experiences offer valuable lessons for anyone aspiring to build scalable teams and bridge the gap between code, product, and business impact.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign up for our Women+ Tech Leaders event happening on the 13th of November!

https://www.londontechleaders.io/event/women-tech-leaders-dealing-with-executives-technical-and-non-technical/?e=1

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 7 of The CTO Lens features Stuart Coleman, CTO at 10x Banking, who shares his unconventional journey from physics lecturer to technology leader driving transformation in financial services. Stuart discusses why being an effective CTO isn’t about being the cleverest person in the room, but about connecting talented people, driving value, and fostering accountability. He reflects on the lessons learned through his rise at 10x — from knowing when to step in or step back, to developing commercial awareness and empathy as a leader. Stuart also opens up about a difficult moment early in his tenure that taught him the importance of communication, humility, and never losing sight of the individuals behind the technology.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign up for our Women+ Tech Leaders event happening on the 13th of November!

https://www.londontechleaders.io/event/women-tech-leaders-dealing-with-executives-technical-and-non-technical/?e=1

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 6 of The CTO Lens features Eleni Kelly, CIO of Pluxee UK, who shares her 20-year journey across public and private sector technology leadership. She explores how the CIO role has evolved from managing IT operations to driving revenue, resilience, and digital culture at the core of modern business. Eleni discusses the importance of commercial acumen, storytelling, and emotional intelligence in technology leadership, along with how trust and empathy shape high-performing teams. Reflecting on her experiences as a woman in tech, she offers practical advice on building confidence, influencing the boardroom, and leading with calm clarity.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign up for our Women+ Tech Leaders event happening on the 13th of November!

https://www.londontechleaders.io/event/women-tech-leaders-dealing-with-executives-technical-and-non-technical/?e=1

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 5 features Nick Drouet, CTO for Kyndryl UK & Ireland, who reflects on his 30-year journey from IBM engineer to enterprise technology leader. He shares how seizing unexpected opportunities shaped his career, the role of mentors in his development, and the importance of adaptability in a fast-changing industry. Nick explores how the CTO role differs across startups and enterprises, emphasising breadth of skills, curiosity, and humility as essential leadership traits. He also discusses the impact of AI on learning and decision-making, offers candid insights into his own mistakes, and highlights the responsibility of tech leaders to mentor and support the next generation.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign for our Leadership Summit happening on the 7th & 8th of October!

https://registration.londontechleaderssummit.io/ltl

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 4 features Meri Williams sharing their journey to becoming a CTO, discussing their early experiences in technology, the challenges they faced in leadership, and the importance of honing technical skills before moving into management. They emphasise the value of understanding both the technical and business sides of technology, and offers insights on career vectors and personal growth. Meri also opens up about their struggles with mental health and the lessons learned from their experiences, providing valuable advice for aspiring tech leaders.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign for our Leadership Summit happening on the 7th & 8th of October!

https://registration.londontechleaderssummit.io/ltl

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 3 features Mal Minhas, a seasoned Chief Technologist, with his most recent role as the CPTO at Gumtree. In this conversation, Mal talks about his time at Symbian, explores the step up to managing managers & what the future of the CxO role might look like in an evolving technology landscape.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign for our Leadership Summit happening on the 7th & 8th of October!

https://registration.londontechleaderssummit.io/ltl

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 2 features Steve Newson, one of the founders of Starling Bank and now Group CTO. In this conversation, Steve reflects on the journey of building a challenger bank from the ground up, the realities of scaling technology in a highly regulated industry, and what it means to stay innovative while leading at the top level.

Along the way, Steve shares practical lessons on resilience, strategic thinking, and balancing innovation with risk — offering a rare inside look at the mindset required to transform an entire sector.

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign for our Leadership Summit happening on the 7th & 8th of October!

https://registration.londontechleaderssummit.io/ltl

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The CTO Lens with David Crawford is a podcast from London Tech Leaders that offers an inside look at the realities of modern technology leadership. Hosted by David Crawford — an experienced CTO and NED for some of the world’s leading enterprise organisations, the show explores the realities of driving transformation, building high-performing teams, and delivering real business impact through technology. This podcast gives you a front-row seat to the conversations shaping modern technology leadership.

Each episode offers practical insights, candid discussions, and stories from the frontlines - from navigating board-level conversations to scaling engineering teams and embracing emerging tech. Whether you’re a CTO, senior tech leader, or an aspiring executive, The CTO Lens is your guide to the challenges and opportunities that define today’s tech landscape.

Episode 1 kicks off with the brilliant Renee Hunt, former CTO of Compare the Market. In this conversation, Renee shares her journey as a technology leader, lessons learned from driving large-scale transformation, and her insights on what it really takes to lead high-performing teams in fast-moving, high-pressure environments.

Midway through the conversation, Renée also recommends the book “Changing Gear: Creating the Life You Want After a Full On Career”, which she credits with shaping her approach to leadership and decision-making — a must-read for any tech leader looking to level up their game.

Book link: https://amzn.eu/d/7FTLw40

London Tech Leaders is the UK’s leading community for senior technology leaders with over 2500+ members. Through regular events, exclusive dinners, women+ tech leaders series and thought-leadership content, we create a space where tech leaders connect, share real-world experiences, and tackle the challenges shaping the future of technology. It’s about building the kind of relationships that spark innovation, drive growth, and inspire fresh ideas across the industry.

Sign for our Leadership Summit happening on the 7th & 8th of October!

https://registration.londontechleaderssummit.io/ltl

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The London Tech Leaders show is back with season 2! In this episode our host Jack Moore welcomes Flavilla Fongang. 

Flavilla Fongang is an award-winning serial entrepreneur, an international and multilingual keynote speaker (English & French). She is a neuroscience brand expert covering strategy, design, marketing and customer experience. She is the founder of 3 Colours Rule, an award-winning branding and marketing agency. Flavilla was awarded the “She’s Mercedes” businesswoman award by Mercedes Benz among women such as Sheryl Sandberg, the COO of Facebook. She is the author of “99 Strategies to get customers”. She is also the founder of Tech London Advocates – Black Women in Tech, the 2nd largest organisation of the TLA group. She published in October 2021 “The Voices In The Shadow”. A book that features stories of black women in tech and is distributed to secondary schools for FREE across the UK and Ireland. She is the enabler and never afraid to challenge the norms.

Flavilla and Jack come together to discuss diversity and branding in the technology space, and more.

To find out more about London Tech Leaders including our in-person events, head over to our website https://www.londontechleaders.io/

WeShape - Technology Consultancy
WeShape is a technology consultancy focusing in the DevOps, Digital, Data and Cloud space.

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The London Tech Leaders show is back with season 2! David Crawford is the current Group CTO at Naked Wines. He has a background in leading product development teams for Camelot, Sky and BT. David has also driven inclusion and diversity initiatives.

As well as his technology passion, David is a committed family man, part-time bee keeper and enjoys the occasional Malbec. 

David Crawford and our host Jack Moore come together to discuss the challenges and rewards that being a leading CTO entails.

To find out more about London Tech Leaders including our in-person events, head over to our website https://www.londontechleaders.io/

WeShape - Technology Consultancy
WeShape is a technology consultancy focusing in the DevOps, Digital, Data and Cloud space.

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Welcome to Episode 3! 

For Episode 3 we have Dominic Monkhouse, the ex MD of Rackspace and now executive business coach, discussing his recent book F*ck Plan B, the Rockefeller habits and business mentorship.

Dom works closely with CEOs and their leadership teams with business coaching, and helping clients deliver rapid growth as Agile Scale-Ups. RESULTS: Growth through the messy middle, clear differentiated strategy, drama-free habitual execution and award-winning cultures.

Dominic founded and scaled two UK technology service firms to £30m in 5 years; Rackspace and Peer 1 Hosting. Globally we took Peer 1 from $90m to $200m.

He has shared lessons from this journey in my book - 'F**K Plan B: How to scale your technology business faster and achieve Plan A'.

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Episode 2  we have Michael Tobin, the former CEO of Telecity Group, giving us an insight into his early life and what made him the leader he is today, as well as his top leadership lessons. 
Welcome to Episode 2! 

Here we're lucky enough to joined by Michael Tobin OBE,  a lifelong entrepreneur, CEO and NED of multiple businesses. Most prominently, Michael built Telecity Group from a £6m market cap to a £2.6bn business, and in 2014 was made an OBE for services to the digital economy. 

We'll be discussing all manner of things, including: 

  • Michael's thoughts on public cloud 

-Why Shawshank Redemption is the best film out there 

-How running 40 marathons in 40 days applies to business 

-Getting shot at in Rhodesia 

Enjoy!

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The LTL Show - Episode 1 Steve Homan - CTO of Metapack

For the first episode we'll be joined by Steve Homan, CTO of Metapack, he will be discussing his approaches to management, what industries he sees are ripe for innovation and his specific journey to getting to the CTO level. 

Steve is an influential, driven and entrepreneurial CIO / CTO with a strong digital focus and successful background in B2B, media, leisure, consultancy, utilities, publishing, commercial & corporate sectors. 

A fast paced change agent who has completed the transformation of the technology of consumer offerings of two global brands. Commercially-aware and business-led, with broad IT experience having worked for world-class organisations including Daily Mail Group, Fitness First and PA Consulting.