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Welcome to this edition of Yacht Business partly recorded in Jeddah where one of the preliminary rounds of the America’s Cup has just been delivered – in style. There is a lot to unpack here – from prejudiced pre-event commentary by sections of the western and social media to lessons in destination marketing and stakeholder management to direct comparisons between this event and the SailGP Dubai event.

I’m going to try and cover all of these things.. BUT FIRST we have a special interview with David Graham, CEO of World sailing…

The Script…

IntroWelcome to this edition of Yacht Business partly recorded in Jeddah where one of the preliminary rounds of the America’s Cup has just been delivered – in style.

There is a lot to unpack here – from prejudiced pre-event commentary by sections of the western and social media to lessons in destination marketing and stakeholder management to direct comparisons between this event and the SailGP Dubai event.

I’m going to try and cover all of these things.. BUT FIRST we have a special interview with David Graham, CEO of World sailing…

David GrahamLive interview…

America’s Cup Preliminary Event in JeddahIn the interests of disclosure, we were not paid to attend this event. Not one flight. Not one room night, not one kick-back. We have no sponsorship from any of the organisations mentioned.

However, unlike many of the armchair pundits, we probably have a better understanding of what the reality of life in Saudi Arabia is really like. We’ve spent months on the ground around the country talking to business leaders and extra ordinary people.

Pre Event ControversyWhich brings us to the artificial ‘controversy’ and hypocrisy from sections of the sailing community and media in the lead-up to the event.

I want you to Imagine a regime. Since coming to power, these leaders have thumbed their noses at the international community in relation to human rights. You know exactly who I’m talking about – of course it’s the current UK conservative government.

Now imagine booking a trip to London to watch the Premier League or Wimbledon and being asked why you were supporting a government that is committed to pulling out of the European convention on Human Rights so they can send refugees to Rwanda.

Do any of us really want to be judged by some of the words and actions of our leaders? Should the next Ashes cricket test in Australia be boycotted on ‘sustainability’ grounds because a previous Prime Minister held up a lump of coal in the parliament and proclaimed it as the future?

Or maybe we should not attend the F1 in Texas on the basis of oppression of women by banning their access to abortion.

I’m tempted to say, “let he who is without sin, cast the first stone..” and speaking of throwing stones, doesn’t the USA still have the death penalty?

Of course, there is a lot of work to be done to change hearts and minds when it comes to the (re)building of brand Saudi in the eyes of the international community.

One way to do that is to invite people to visit, to experience it for themselves. To be made to feel welcome in a genuine way. That’s easier said than done.

There are thousands of tourist destinations to choose from all around the world. So how to give people a reason to visit.

Sport is a tried and tested way of literally putting cities on the map.

Sport as Destination Marketing StrategyIn fact, Sport may be the Ultimate Destination Marketing Tool.

Quick, think of a city in Saudi Arabia. Now think of an Australian city.

Competition for visitors and inward investment isn’t just between countries, it’s also between regions and cities within countries.

Back in the early 90s, the Australian Grand Prix was held in Adelaide. The MotoGP was raced at Eastern Creek in NSW. But Melbourne had a strategy to change all that.

Bringing the F1 Grand Prix to Melbourne was controversial. More controversial than running an America’s Cup preliminary event in Jeddah.

Firstly there was the cost. The right to host a Grand Prix is expensive. Money that could be spent on ‘better things.’

The race is a street circuit on public roads causing disruption to traffic and users of Albert Park for weeks before the race. Then there is the noise from the cars and helicopters and general disruption to thousands of local residents.

The first race was in 1996, and nearly 30 years later, some still complain about the nuisance.

But… for a few hours a year, the MELBOURNE brand is broadcast live around the world to a desirable demographic who follow Formula 1…. And with the popularity of new formats, like the Netflix documentary – Drive to Survive, the coverage reaches a wide audience.

Some of that audience might say – why don’t we go to Melbourne for the Grand Prix next year or… why don’t we hold our APAC regional conference in Melbourne next year or… why don’t we relocate our APAC HQ to Melbourne?

But Jeddah and Saudi Arabia has something that Melbourne doesn’t and it’s the thing that makes the strategy to host an F1 Grand Prix and an America’s Cup event so clever.

The WHO’S WHO of Elite(ist) Sport. Let’s start with a geography lesson. Saudi Arabia is the 13th biggest country in the world by land mass. Smaller than Greenland, larger than Mexico.

The total coastline of Saudi Arabia is 2,640 km or 1640 miles.. That’s roughly double the coastline of California

The Red Sea coastline of Saudi Arabia is 1,760 kilometers (1,100 miles) which is very-roughly double the length of the Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race or the Fastnet Race…

Here’s a fun fact – according to the Inter web net, there is only 3 nautical miles difference between the length of the Sydney Hobart race and the Fastnet race.

Like many countries in the Middle East, there is a rich maritime history in a city like Jeddah. With the right conditions, a desire to compete with the rest of the world as a venue for high-profile sporting events, and the backing of key leaders Jeddah is well placed to position itself as a world-class sporting destination for a very specific kind of sports fan.

If you listened to our report from the 2023 Dubai Boat Show, you will know that the goal of many of the ports in the Middle East is to tempt Superyachts to spend the Northern Hemisphere in the Red Sea rather than the Carribean.

Jeddah is closer to Mykonos than St Barts, but proximity is not enough. Many superyacht owners are sports fans. They will move their yachts to be close to the action. Whether it be the Football World Cup, the Rugby World Cup, the Olympics, the Monaco Grand Prix or the America’s Cup.

This elite target market could explain why the preliminary regatta was sponsored by Neom.

In addition to the mind-boggling LINE city project, Neom’s developments include SINDALAH, a purpose built Superyacht Island and Yachting Hub.

This isn’t just buying a Premier League team. This is a long-term strategy which includes building infrastructure and facilities, creating jobs and attracting inbound investment.

The Experience & JourneyAnd so to the event.. The America’s Cup Preliminary Regatta in Jeddah, presented by Neom…

Where does the experience begin? Well… that depends on who you are.

I’m going to digress a little bit more here before I get into our thoughts about the event, because it’s important to understand that experience is a relative concept.

A 10 year old Saudi girl who lives in Jeddah is going to have a different experience to a VIP Guest, watching from a Superyact or a jaded sailing pundit, albeit with a good understanding of the region.

To be fair, many events get this wrong. EIther there is no differentiation between the buyer personas and stakeholders, or only one group are focussed on – for example, VIP guests.

Fan Journey 1 – Getting to JeddahAs a foreign fan considering visiting Saudi Arabia, probably for the first time, the journey was very much a ‘sort it out yourself’ kind of affair. Perhaps it is not the job of the organisers to make it easier for people to attend the event, but simply linking out to the Visit Saudi website is not really sufficient.

I would imagine that most fans of New Zealand, USA, UK, Italy, France and Switzerland don’t know that passport holders of those countries can get a tourist visa for Saudi Arabia on arrival and that there are low-cost airlines that service Jeddah and there are both 5 star and 3 star hotel options throughout the city.

Most of the comms leading up to the event was not – SEE YOU THERE, but ‘THIS IS HOW YOU WATCH ON YOUTUBE IN YOUR TIMEZONE’

It would be very hard to work out what the foreign visitor impact of the event was. There were several other large events happening on the same weekend, including the ATP Next Generation Tennis finals…

I would imagine that when you fly into Barcelona in 2024, there will be signage and promotion for the America’s Cup at the Airport. There might be already. But flying in from Riyadh, there was nothing to advertise the event’s happening. Even the Red Sea Film Festival had decals on the floor of the airport, welcoming visitors.

I did spot a small, AC branded booth in arrivals, which presumably was used a few days earlier to welcome teams and their entourage. Again, for context, I arrived on Friday morning – 1 day into the 3 day event…

A note on scheduling. This is a tough one for events coming to the Middle East. The working week in Saudi is Sunday to Thursday. Foreign fans would need to take days off to attend the Thursday and Friday racing. International sporting audiences are used to the final day or race being on Sunday. So again, which stakeholders are you designing for? Locals? The Superyacht crowd? Die-hard fans who will take holidays to try something new? A Live TV audience?

Anyway… My experience is that I arrived into the domestic terminal. There was no presence or awareness building, not like the Red Sea Film Festival or the ATP Next Generation final or the FIFA Club World Cup.

Fan Journey 2 – Getting to the VenueIn year’s gone by, for other events, there would be a Volvo waiting for me to take me to the venue… that was BU – Before Uber. Both UBER and the local equivalent Careem have designated pick up points at the airport. Tick. There is no public wifi at the airport.

Now if you are optimising for the local or the superyacht crowd, then global data roaming is assumed. Luckily… and this is one of the wonders of Saudi hospitality – if you ask a nearby stranger to turn their phone into a hotspot long enough to order an Uber, they will do it gladly.

Incidentally, If I was Uber or Careem, I would install free Wifi hotspots next to their pick up points for those who don’t have international data roaming plans. Think of the edge cases!

The only venue I had seen relating to the event was the Jeddah Yacht Club and Marina. So that’s what I entered as the destination for the driver. Here is a free tip for event organisers – Do a deal with Careem. Have a promo code for rides to and from the venue and get Careem to educate their drivers where to go – because the driver relying on Google Maps is not enough.

About 1600 meters from the venue, flags promoting the event began to line the main road into the precinct. Signage began to appear about 600 meters out, along with traffic control and security.

Maybe the organisers were expecting 5,000 cars. Certainly there was parking for about 5,000 cars. But let’s just say that the negotiation with security from 600 meters out from the Jeddah Yacht Club (which is where I thought I was meant to be going) was not frictionless.

In fact, I had to go to the Jeddah Yacht Club Academy to pick up my credentials… but the entrance to the FanZone was another kilometer away.

Fan Journey 3 – The Fanzone. If you somehow managed to get to the official entrance to the Fanzone, you would have been greeted with a world-class setup.

Some of the sailing events in the Middle East take place on building sites or makeshift marquees hastily set up by the water’s edge – the Jeddah Corniche is a perfect spot to have a day out, eat, shop, watch sailing and more.

It’s not a coincidence that the Saudi Sailing Federation offices are located in this park. This is the difference between working with the local community to deliver an event and jetting in and out with no real understanding how the city works.

The Fanzone included an ‘immersive experience’ and an impressive stage where the final prize giving was held in front of a sizable crowd.

Though touted as ‘Stadium Racing’ this was not really the case. The prevailing wind for the last two days meant that the start line ran parallel to the shore about 2 or 3 hundred meters off the beach and boats sailed away from the crowd.

There were however numerous big screens which could be watched in the shade!

The only downside of the Fanzone was that I couldn’t find any merchandise. It would have been nice to have a memento of being at the first sailing event of its kind on the Red Sea.

Probably the best fan experience of any sailing event I have ever attended in the Middle East and better than many established western events.

Fan Journey 4 – The VIP ExperienceLet’s face it, this is the only experience that matters – right?

Again, thanks to the investment in infrastructure at the Jeddah Yacht Club and Marina, VIPS got to experience the racing in luxury at ‘the Pyramid’.

Rather than suffering the heat in an non-air conditioned tent, the AC Club featured a balcony view of the racetrack, hosted pre-race talks in English and Arabic, visits from sailors and the America’s Cup itself, a big screen and some great catering.

This was almost the ultimate seat in the house, because as we said, the prevailing wind meant that even from the balcony, the yachts looked rather small at the top mark and as the sun got lower in the sky in the afternoon and the mist rolled in, the boats became mere silhouettes on a gold / grey sea.

The best seat in the house (apart from watching on a big screen) was probably from the 51 meter superyacht Pearl.

Fan Journey 5 – The ShowEvents like this are a success or failure through conditions that are almost totally out of control of the organiser. No matter how good sailing rights holders get at designing boats that create a great spectacle in as wide a wind range as possible, the fact is that if the boats were drifting around in displacement mode, no amount of event management or organisation is going to make it memorable.

In other words, if the wind doesn’t blow, there is no show.

Fortunately, fans in Jeddah and those watching around the world were treated to some thrilling racing on the limits of the boat’s design. One local journalist asked me in awe – “they have no engine?”

Those watching the AC40’s foiling past at speed didn’t need to be patronised by converting knots to kilometres per hour. For some, this might have been, probably was, the first competitive sailing they had ever seen and it was nice to see that the coverage sought to educate rather than pander to the lowest common denominator.

There is hours and hours of content dedicated to the racing and the on-the-water action, that’s not what we are about. From what I heard from seasoned sailing commentators, they were impressed.

The DebriefThe America’s Cup Preliminary event in Jeddah delivered way above my expectations. This was a world-class event that showed off the city’s investment in marine related infrastructure and the hospitality of the people.

Small annoyances can be forgiven, since this is the first time the event has been staged. The production values and the delivery was better than many events that have been running annually for decades.

Jeddah could host the America’s Cup, but… there are challenges that probably make Barcelona a better choice, at least for 2024.

The biggest challenge is the weather. Even in early December it was hot and humid. It’s bearable for a few days, but it would be extremely difficult to run a longer event like the larger America’s Cup.

Hopefully, the event changed some people’s minds. Not the armchair whingers who pine for 12 meter yachts plodding miles off the coast of Newport, or those ignorant to the reality of life in Saudi Arabia and not willing to see for themselves, but people who were surprised by the warmth of the reception and the quality of the event and those who came expecting something and got something completely different.

Here are some soundbites from the prize giving ceremony in front of a big crowd… As with many sailing events – the number of people is not important, what matters is who they are. First up, the Chairman of the Saudi Sailing Federation Hassan Kabbani…

That’s it for this episode of the Yacht Business Podcast.

2024 will be a big year for sailing with the America’s Cup proper scheduled for the back end of the year, but before that we need to finish off 2023 with events like the Sydney Hobart race.

Don’t miss an episode, be sure to subscribe via your favorite podcast app, sign up to our newsletter or follow us on Linkedin where you can comment and join in the discussion.

I’m David Fuller. Thanks for listening.

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In this episode, I talk to Nick Houchin, Head of Marketing for sailing apparel brand Musto. We chat about how he got into the business, innovation and challenges around keeping a brand relevant and top of mind. Show Notes & Bookmarks The phrase “There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing” is often attributed to the Norwegian saying, “Det finnes ikke dårlig vær, bare dårlig klær.” This saying reflects the Scandinavian approach to dealing with challenging weather conditions. In regions with cold climates like Norway, Sweden, and other Nordic countries, people emphasize the importance of proper clothing to stay comfortable and safe in various weather conditions. It encourages individuals to be prepared and properly dressed for the weather, rather than simply avoiding or complaining about it. ChatGPT – What do you think?

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In this episode of the Yacht Business Podcast, recorded at the Sydney Boat Show, host David Fuller explores disruptive technology, innovation, and the state of sustainability in the boating industry. The Boating Industry Association introduced the inaugural Sustainability award, won by Go Boat. However, sustainable boating examples were scarce, with Eyachts’ RAND range being a standout. Interviews with Ross Turner and Peter Hrones from Carbon Yachts shed light on market trends and the game-changing fully foiling Candela boats. David Meehan from Mercury discussed the smaller, outboard engine boats. The Boat Show also featured a ‘Sailing and paddling’ showcase with interviews by Nic Douglas. Bookmarks & Show Notes

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An interview with Neil Patchett from the Australian Boating Industry Association about the Sydney International Boat Show (3rd – 6th August, 2023) In this episode of the Yacht Business Podcast, we preview the Sydney Boat Show. We talk about the state of the industry in Australia post-pandemic and look at efforts to make boating more sustainable. We also get into why getting out on the water makes us feel good and the benefits for society. Bookmarks & Show Notes

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In this episode, I travel to Dubai for the Middle East Yachting Conference and the Dubai International Boat Show. The world order is changing and things are moving. Can the Middle East be a rival to the Caribbean for superyachts during the northern hemisphere winter and can the regulations be changed to make yachting a key component of the economy?

Bookmarks & Show Notes

• 00:59 – The Race is On. How are the Middle East’s Mega Projects transforming the region into an iconic superyacht destination? With Captain Saif al Mheri, Managing Director Abu Dhabi Maritime & AD Ports Authority, Abdulla Bin Habtoor – Chief Portfolio Officer SHAMAL / Dubai Harbour and Luc Khaldoun – Chief of Staff & Director of New Projects Cruise Saudi.
• 01:39 – Co-operation between destinations is key to create a regional network. Destinations do not compete with each other in the Middle East, instead the competition is the Caribbean.
• 16:35 – Regulation and User Experience. Abeer Al Shaali – Deputy Managing Director Gulf Craft & Eng. Hanan Ekhzalmy – Head of Strategy Federal Transportation Authority for Land and Maritime.
• 23:30 – Dubai Harbour building a maritime hub and yachting destination.

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In this episode of the Yacht Business podcast, I speak with Gerben Visser and Keegan Leslie from Aquator Marine, an app designed to help with the management of large yachts. Then a bonus segment from the Pilote Podcast about using VR and AR for displaying and selling yachts.

Show Notes & Bookmarks

• 00:37 – Gerben Visser is CEO and Founder of Aquator Marine.
• 02:46 – Many yachts are still managed using paper log-books and Excel spreadsheets.
• 03:24 – Keegan Leslie is Business Development Manager of Aquator Marine. His career progression is from Deck-Hand to Chief Officer which is important when designing systems that are not used by ‘techies’.
• 05:07 – Superyachts have well defined ‘personas’ or stakeholders who require different things from a yacht management system – from owners, to a captain or people responsible for crew and maintenance.
• 06:21 – Customer-centricity is important when analysing complex organisations and designing software or tools.
• 08:00 – Not all yachts are the same, so the Aquator platform includes modules that be added as required.
• 08:57 – There are aspects of managing a yacht, like security, safety and compliance that can be very complicated. Keeping track of all that on a spreadsheet gets harder and harder.
• 09:56 – A superyacht has more systems, more staff, more suppliers, more regulatory requirements than most small businesses.
• 11:10 – Integrations for popular partner products are essential. For example, foreign exchange and international banking apps like Wise
• 12:57 – A lot of private data is transferred using unsecure methods like email or spreadsheets. Privacy and data security should be a focus of the industry. IoT monitoring and Digital Twins will also be used more, which also requires that data to be managed and stored somewhere secure.
• 17:10 – There are some large opportunities to combine data and insurance activities. The ability to customise insurance based on the actual activity of the vessel.
• 18:56 – A quick discussion about the Asian yachting sector.
• 21:41 – How VR and AR can be used to sell yachts, create virtual boat shows, save costs and create digital twins
• 22:33 – Links from the Pilote podcast relating to VR for trade shows, including superyachts.

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This is the Yacht Business Podcast – I’m your host David Fuller. In this episode we talk to a software entreprener mixing wearables with watersports. In this episode I am joined by Gabriella Hernandez who is Co-founder and CMO of KANARA Sportech.

Kanara is an app which is designed to help kite surfers and paddleboarders and sailors keep track of their data and share their sport with others.

Bookmarks & Shownotes

• 05:39 – Listen to our podcast from SailGP Dubai.
• 10:31 – 3D visualisations will become part of an augmented or mixed reality layer that we experience data through.
• 12:15 – The Samsung Gear 3 was launched in 2016 with GPS. Earlier models used the GPS of the phone connected by Bluetooth.
• 13:14 – Listen to our interview with WMRT’s James Pleasance
• 15:47 – Performance data could be used as part of sponsorship presentations to show training activity or how an athlete ranks against others.
• 23:33 – How will 5G wearable devices change tracking?
• 24:02 – Gamification is a key trend – not just for sailing, but for travel too.
• 26:28 – Full body haptic suit – Telsa suit is ONLY $12999
• 31:59 – Become a Patreon Subscriber
• 32:13 – The Yacht Business podcast is produced by Pilote Media

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Welcome to the Yacht Business podcast – I’m your host, David Fuller.In this episode, we take a look at the first ever SailGP event in Dubai, the fan experience, the challenges of running an event in a new market and a new environment and we talk to Tod Reynolds, director of Web3 strategy for SailGP. about the DAO based team owned by fans.

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James Pleasance – Executive Director of the World Match Racing Tour talks about where match racing sits in the wider sailing world and new initiatives to provide access and increase diversity in the sport. Bookmarks, Shownotes & Further Reading

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In this crossover episode I chat with Justin Chisholm. Justin a sailing journalist and host of the Yacht Racing Podcast. We discuss the way technology has impacted the sport of sailing from a media and communications point of view and what might happen next… 01:00 – Justin Chisholm is host of The Yacht Racing Podcast 01:22 – David Fuller also created Yacht Sponsorship 03:23 – How will Web3 technologies impact the marine industry? 04:16 – ‘The Metaverse’ was coined by author Neal Stephenson in a cyberpunk novel called ‘Snow Crash’. He is now building his own version of the metaverse. 07:38 – How will weather work in the Metaverse? Whether there will be weather at all? 07:59 – European Digital Twin of the Ocean – The European Digital Twin Ocean’s ambition is to make ocean knowledge readily available to citizens, entrepreneurs, scientists and policy-makers by providing them with an innovative set of user-driven, interactive and visualisation tools. 11:12 – Check out our ‘Yachts for Science’ episode… 23:29 – The business models have changed. Through services like Patreon and pay-walls becoming more popular. The ‘content creator’ economy is also something that Web3 is looking to address, with creators getting a larger […]

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In this episode of the Yacht Business Podcast, Rosie ODonnell from Yachts for Science tells us about the initiative – It’s good for yacht owners and it’s good for science. Then I editorialise a little about the SailGP DAO. Bookmarks & Shownotes 00:57 – Yachts for Science came together in 2019. 04:20 – MY Slipstream will tow a net across the Atlantic as part of a new project. 05:29 – The organisation works with the Manta Trust on projects. 13:45 – Drones have made marine science a lot easier and cheaper. 17:00 – The Volvo Ocean Race has had some science done while during the race in various editions. 17:51 – How do you stay in touch? Twitter? Somewhere else? 18:09 – Editorial : The Sail GP DAO The Sail GP DAO – For the Fans… of NEAR Protocol In a previous episode, I talked about SailGP having to change things up a bit for the fans. The format, which forces nearly every race to be the same, is a bit like – you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all. It’s less about the skill of the athletes and more like ‘I hope there is a wreck to make it […]

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In this episode we talk to Jonny Dodge. Jonny works with F1, aviation, space travel and has a company called MY OCEAN which is disrupting the world of Superyachts by bringing cryptocurrency and Web3 thinking to a more traditional space. Bookmarks & Show Notes 00:15 – David Fuller talks to Jonny Dodge 03:23 – New technology will impact the entire end-to-end superyacht charter customer experience, from augmented and virtual reality in the design to paying for charters using cryptocurrency. 03:45 – A venture fund – MY OCEAN Ventures will be set up to invest in start-ups using Web3 technology to be applied to the superyacht market. 04:45 – It’s not just about technology. Cryptocurrency has changed the customers and brought a younger audience who want different things. This has an impact on the design of the yacht. 06:44 – MY OCEAN went messaging first. Using WhatsApp and Telegram instead of email. This was implemented through all parts of the business, including their law firm! 07:50 – There is real utility involved with accepting cryptocurrency for superyacht charter. Large transfers can take place across borders, quickly with lower fees. 09:20 – San Lorenzo have a green room which allows an owner […]

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In the first episode of the re-booted Yacht Business Podcast, David Fuller speaks with Harry Spedding, General Manager of AutoNaut about the technologies and edge cases that go into building autonomous, wave powered scientific research vessels. Bookmarks & Shownotes 0:17 – The Pacific Garbage Patch is a collection of debris in the North Pacific Ocean. Also known as the Pacific trash vortex, and eve there, waves exist. 04:17 – Foiling technology has been around for a long time, though more recently used spectacularly by waveman Laird Hamilton to surf giant waves and unseen waves. 07:46 – Some missions can collect up to a Terabyte of data, so getting the data off the vessel via satellite could become very expensive! 12:32 – Satellite connectivity is changing thanks to projects like Starlink, but might not work at sea for smaller vessels because of the way the antennas are designed. 14:43 – The edge cases around solar power. Ice helps, salt crystals don’t. Which shows the importance of R&D and testing. 15:46 – Blockchain is not really being used at the moment. There may be some user cases for storage of data in an immutable format, but there are issues. Just because data […]

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Mark Turner is a leader and innovator in the sport of sailing. Perhaps best known for the Extreme Sailing Series, Mark has a deep understanding of the balance between the performance side of the sport and the commercial realities. In this wide ranging discussion, Mark talks about the state of offshore racing, the success of the Vendee Globe and the French sailing industry ecosystem. He has some strong thoughts about the Offshore medal event which had been planned for the Olympics. We discuss the challenges of increasing diversity in the sport and how to make the most of sailing’s positioning in relation to sustainability.

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Welcome to the Yacht Business Podcast. This program is dedicated to the commercial side of yachting – from professional sailing to boatbuilding, marketing and associated industries. We are also launching a podcast within a podcast – ‘Deeper Water’ is a series of programs looking at key topics – from sustainability and diversity to talent development and mental health.

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