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Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Dwight Zcheielle. Dwight is Professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary. He’s the author of several books, including Embracing the Mixed Ecology: Inherited and New Forms of Christian Community Flourishing Together, also Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future, and Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the Church in America. Dwight is an ordained minister in The Episcopal Church.

Dwight, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. It’s so good to have you, and since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we’d like to know you a little bit, your story, projects you’re currently working on, and how you’re participating with the Lord Jesus Christ.

[00:01:40] Dwight: Thanks so much, Anthony, and it’s just so great to join you all.

I grew up in a secular home in California. I’ve lived in Minnesota now for 20 years, and so it’s pretty crazy that a Californian would survive 20 Minnesota winters. But I grew up really in a story that I think is pretty common now in American culture around really writing your own story, if you will, and having to go your own way and create your own sense of community and find meaning and purpose where you can. And I encountered Jesus and the gospel as a kind of young adult, and it really revolutionized my life, freed me, and reoriented me in every way, really.

And so, my work as a missiologist really comes out of a concern for those neighbors who haven’t heard the gospel and how the church can join those neighbors, love them, listen to them, and faithfully witness to the story we have in Jesus which is life. And so, that’s what my work has been on, and I’ve done that partly through just being involved in the missional church conversation and the kind of later stages of that in the early 2000s into the 2010s when that was a primary conversation going on around the church in America.

And then spending quite a few years really trying to figure out, okay, if we work out the theology on it’s God’s mission that we’re participating in, what does that really look like in practice? And so, I spent a lot of time working with local churches trying to figure out what are the practices that help them actually join God’s mission in their place — learned a lot along the way. And then recently I’ve been working on this kind of framework which comes from the UK, of thinking about a mixed ecology, of lots of different forms of church, traditional inherited church, as well as church plants, fresh expressions, creative out of the box forms of church that are needed to reach the variety of people who are in today’s neighborhoods. And so, that’s the last book that I did with my wife, Blair. And just trying to help expand some imagination around that and think about how these pieces fit together.

[00:04:08] Anthony: It’s fascinating work and it really does lead into the question I wanted to ask you of particular importance to me. I’ve seen evangelism done in such a way, Dwight, that it felt like it was completely unhitched with a faithful theology. And what I saw happening, and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this, the church could end up doing mission work for God, like “God, look what I’ve done. I’ve slayed the dragon. I’ve saved all these souls,” but without realizing the vitality of mission with God, that it’s God’s mission and that he’s at work in the neighborhood by his Spirit.

So, is that a fair assessment? And I’m just curious, how should Christology theology inform missiology. Do you address it in your book Participating in God’s Mission, and if so, how did it work out?

[00:04:58] Dwight: Yes. What you’re describing is I think what in the field of missiology is sometimes talked about as a kind of Copernican revolution that happened really in the mid-twentieth century around thinking about God’s mission and God as the primary missionary, if you will, that God’s Trinitarian life is a missional life. It’s a life that’s not closed in on itself, but it’s creative and outward reaching, ecstatic in the true kind of Greek sense of that, reaching beyond. And that it is primary in fact. And that we know that that mission through Christ and the Spirit, Irenaeus’ “two hands of God in the world today,” right?

And so, the church exists as a kind of product of and participant in that mission, which means that rather than the church having to think about, okay, “what do I need to do for God?” as you’re mentioning, it’s “what is God doing?” How might we discern what God is actively doing in our context? And then, how might we join in? And one of the really important pieces of that then becomes that discernment is really the primary posture, if you will, for the church.

So, I like to talk about, the Holy Spirit should be the primary leader of the church …

[00:06:21] Anthony: Yes.

[00:06:22] Dwight: … not any human leader, but the Holy Spirit. And then the responsibility of those of us who are entrusted with leading local churches is to help the community discern and join what the Holy Spirit is doing and to witness to Christ into the gospel in an embodied way, in joining what God’s doing in the neighborhood.

And I think the backdrop to this, which I think we should just name is in Western cultures, the kind of secular imagination that comes out of modernity where it’s so easy for people to simply experience the world with God’s agency and presence bracketed out, if you will. And it’s a long kind of philosophical history of that going back into the Enlightenment, which brought many gifts and also some real liabilities, if you will, to thinking about this question of how the church engages with neighbors. And so, part of what we need to renew and rediscover is imagination for God’s active presence in agency in our local contexts. And then the capacity to test the spirits, to faithfully discern and participate in those, the movement of God in our place.

And that’s something that I think for a lot of local churches, they’re simply not organized around or their culture is not organized around. It’s still often, mission is something we do over maybe 5% of the time with 5% of the people in some programmatic way, rather than a more holistic understanding where all of the whole people of God, all disciples, are called to discern and join in in all of life wherever God’s placed us with what God is doing and to be witnesses there. And, of course, we love those kinds of organized outreach activities that we might do. And they’re wonderful, and they need to be complimenting a much more holistic, whole of life kind of approach.

[00:08:32] Anthony: Preach. I’m really compelled by this conversation. I’d love to dig deeper. Maybe we can have a podcast at some point and just talk about this matter. But just really quickly, I’m curious you talked about practical expressions of this.

Can you give our listening audience maybe a practical way of group discernment? Say there’s a fresh expression of church. What would you advise, guide a church to do to really discern what the Lord is doing in their context? Any practical advice?

[00:09:05] Dwight: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think it has to begin with prayer and Scripture and a real capacity to pay attention to God’s presence and movement. So, prayer is again, … and I think multiple ways of thinking about prayer. I think the rich variety of traditions in the Christian, in our Christian heritage around how do we develop our ability to attend to God, right, to listen to God through prayer, is really important.

So, there’s lots of ways we can do that. But then we need to make sure that the primary story shaping our engagement with our neighbors and thinking about this is in fact the biblical narrative and not some other story, because we live in a culture that is very transactional. It’s very much about fixing and it’s very easy then to reduce our neighbors to objects either of attraction into our organized church activities or fixing — they’re our neighbors, we need to fix them, because there’s something wrong with them, right? Rather than, I think, a more holistic understanding of, God’s agency is primary. Our neighbors are agents as well, or subjects. And we’re called to be in relationship with them — that’s through listening and loving.

And so, yes, some concrete practices that come out of that. I think developing our prayer capacity, engaging in scripture. And there are a variety of ways that I’ve seen that happen in communities beyond a kind of more formal Bible study. So often that could be simply like a practice that I’ve used a lot. It’s called dwelling in the Word, and it’s a very simple form of lectio divina in community that builds people’s ability to engage Scripture with a kind of wondering curiosity. And then I think another piece to practice is simply intentionally paying attention to your daily life, right? So that might be, whether it be prayer walks, or whether it be investing some presence in relationship in a particular neighborhood space maybe you’re already connected in, but that you want to bring a kind of spiritual attention to and wonder about where God might be leading you to listen to or love or draw close to various neighbors. And I think the whole Fresh Expressions journey and a lot of those kinds of contextual Christian communities that are emerging right now began very intentionally not with trying to track people into a worship service, but really with joining, listening, loving, forming community, building trust. And out of that, then, discerning what does church need to look like with these people in this place. And it’s so easy. I think we often, as church leaders, we have great ideas for what church should look like. We dream them up and then they may be very different from what actually the Holy Spirit wants to create with particular people that we have in our neighborhoods.

[00:12:13] Anthony: Yeah, recently I saw a survey that only 70 or 77% of Americans state that they have not spoken to a single neighbor in the last two years. And my experience is that often the church mimics culture. And if that’s the case, we can see why we have so many issues, right? That’s got to change.

We’re called to love our neighbors and that means like our literal neighbors like the person that’s sleeping 40 feet away in the next house. They’re my neighbor. Sometimes I think we can get lost behind everybody’s my neighbor, so, I love all my neighbors, but I don’t engage anybody in particular. But we’re called to love our literal neighbor. That’s again, a fascinating discussion. Bless you for the work that you’re doing, Dwight.

Let’s move on to our lectionary text for the month. Our first text is 2 Thessalonians 1:1-4, 11-12. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. This is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 26 in Ordinary Time, November 2.

We must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. 4 Therefore we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith during all your persecutions and the afflictions that you are enduring.

11 To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dwight, if you were giving an expository sermon from this text, what would you herald to the congregation?

[00:14:20] Dwight: It’s a beautiful text and I love the spirit of it. And what I want to begin with is how the text begins with this posture of gratitude and thanksgiving. Right now, it seems like in American culture, one of the predominant emotions is resentment, which I think of almost as the opposite of gratitude.

There’s a lot of grievance. There’s a lot of divisiveness. There’s a lot of sense of scarcity, right? That’s zero sum, that we were all competing and if someone else is thriving, that means that I might, must not be, they’re taking it away from me. There’s all kinds of dynamics and you see it across the political spectrum right now.

So, to begin with a posture of gratitude, like giving thanks for this growth of faith that Paul is seeing in these sisters and brothers in love. It’s increasing, which — this is the game, right, that we as Christians are playing. It is growth in faith and it is love for one another and for our neighbors. And there’s a simplicity to that, that I think it’s easy to lose sight of, right? Growth in faith is about growth in our capacity to be led by God, to place our trust in God, to obey God, to be dependent upon God in a culture that says, informs us, has these messages around that you should really just be only self-reliant, look out for yourself. You can do it yourself. Justify yourself, right? I think we have a massive culture right now of self-justification in a lot of ways.

So, growing in a faith abundantly and loving one another is we learn how to live into, if you will, the life of the Trinity, this life of love that is also about differentiation. It’s like we don’t need to be the same, and yet we need, we can love one another and be joined in one community. So, the fact that Paul is boasting about their love and faith among other churches is I think a beautiful idea. If there’s anything to boast of, right? Paul boasted of his suffering and he boasts of other people’s faith and love rather than all the things that we might be tempted to boast about in a self-justifying way.

Self-justification is very much there in the church too right now. We think about it as all the ways in which, again, we’re trying to save ourselves or do right or deal with whatever sense of guilt we have on our own. And this is a text that just comes out of a spirit, I think, of freedom, spirit of love, spirit of celebration.

And then I want to just touch on verse 4, there, the end of verse 4: “During all your persecutions and the afflictions that you’re enduring.” So, it’s not okay, this is coming, that you’re growing in love and faith because everything’s just so easy. It’s actually very much in the midst of suffering and resistance and persecution.

And I think there’s a piece to that’s important to keep in mind as well. There’s a lot of resistance, just suffering happening generally for people in our world today. We don’t need to remind anyone of that, but also the resistance of what does it mean to follow Jesus in this culture that I think is increasingly post-Christian and many ways, increasingly kind of neopagan right now resembling more in some weird ways, the culture of the first century, Roman imperial context.

So, if I were preaching on this text, I would wonder what does it mean to live as a person of gratitude amidst resistance, persecution, suffering that happens. And to be free to grow and love even amidst that. And I think so often. We look back in our lives on those moments when we’ve faced resistance and adversity and we say, okay, those were the times I did grow in love and they’re painful, but what might God be doing in your life right now through those tough passages to grow you in faith and love?

[00:18:55] Anthony: I saw quote just recently, and I’m not sure who the source was, but it said, “Gratitude is the wine of life, and so, it’s okay to get drunk drinking gratitude. Live a life of gratitude.” And I agree with you, brother.

Verse 11 says, “God will make you worthy of his call.” What in the world does that mean, and how do we interpret that?

[00:19:21] Dwight: Yeah, it’s like another great text in this: “God will make you worthy of his call.” I think, again, just to go back to this basic theme of gratitude and gift. So, I hear this as a message about grace. Again, you don’t need to make yourself worthy of God’s call by being the one who’s just trying harder or again, justifying yourself. It is God’s gift. God will make you worthy. You don’t need to do it. It’s God’s work. And I’m a real kind of student of the reformation in the great breakthrough that Martin Luther had around justification as gift in this as I hear this text, so that we have this gift. God’s making us worthy of his call. And then it goes on to say, we’ll fulfill it by his power. By his power, not our power. By his power. Every good resolve and work of faith. So, you have this sort of justification then vocation, service, loving, work of faith that follows from that dynamic going on in this text that I think is really important.

And I think for us to be really clear about that. Again, I just think there’s not enough grace in today’s culture, in today’s society by any stretch, and not enough grace so often in the church as well. It’s so easy for churches to simply ask people, “What are you doing to make yourself worthy of God,” rather than just going back over and over again, “God will make you worthy.” And that is, it’s God’s action. It’s God’s claiming and calling, and then it’s God’s power that will bring forth from us those good works, those works of service so that God’s, that Jesus’ name may be glorified. I love again how Paul ends this passage with “according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ,” just in case you missed it. Let’s come back to the grace thing.

[00:21:37] Anthony: Yeah, this reminds me of a statement that Eugene Peterson made about discipleship, and I see a connection here, and what he said at first can sound counterintuitive because he said discipleship is focusing less and less on ourselves and more and more on Christ.

And it’s his work. It’s his power, it’s his presence. And yes, we have to be attentive to what the Lord is doing in us. I don’t think Eugene would ever say, you’re not attentive to that, but let’s fix our gaze on him. He’s the one who fulfills these things by his power. And that’s what I hear when we come to a text like this. This is God at work in us, right?

[00:22:19] Dwight: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I don’t know about you, but I just find that to be great news. Because if it’s up to me, forget it. And I think one of the reasons why we see a real kind of stream of dimension of despair and anxiety in our culture right now is because this theme of grace is less and less present.

And I think people who are living in a more secular or neopagan kind of cultural orientation where it’s all up to you to figure it out, it’s all up to you to secure your place — that is an enormously heavy burden to place on people. And the message of grace is just not being heard by people. And in fact, what you get instead is condemnation, judgment all over the place.

[00:23:23] Anthony: Yeah. If Romans 8:1 tells us there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, if he doesn’t condemn us, I don’t think he’s calling us to do it. Let it be so, Lord.

Alright, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, 13-17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 27 in Ordinary Time, which is November 9. Dwight, we’d be grateful if you read it for us, please.

[00:23:56] Dwight: I’d be happy to.

As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you?

13 But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 For this purpose he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and through grace gave us eternal comfort and good hope, 17 comfort your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word.

[00:25:29] Anthony: Amen. I see a theme that constantly is present in Thessalonians, and that is the coming of Jesus Christ, being prepared for the second arrival, an awareness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And I’m curious because sometimes I hear Christians talk about the kingdom to come in its fullness and it’s like we’re waiting around just trying to escape to that, as opposed to the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming, having a Word to speak to us in the here and now. What say you, how do you speak of the second coming of Jesus?

[00:26:07] Dwight: Yeah, so I think it’s really important to step back and think about how time is conceptualized in different cultures. And if you think about what’s so powerful about biblical faith is the sense of God acting in history, which is very revolutionary. I think we take it for granted, but compared to so many cultures in the world which see this sort of endless cycles of time repeating itself. But the idea that there is a beginning, middle, and end, if you will, to history, or there are these seasons, if you will, that are up to God is a really powerful biblical teaching. And so, this teaching on the Parousia is a way to stress that.

And I always want to approach it with fear and trembling and thinking about the depths of the mystery of all of this, because of course, very much one of the core messages of the Thessalonian correspondence is, okay don’t spend too much time trying to worry about exactly when this is coming, right? This is God’s thing. And so, we need to be living into a new reality in light of that future. But that future is in fact one of the healing and restoration of the whole world. It’s not simply the escape of certain people out of the world, which I think has been one of the ways in which this has been imagined.

And often we get a very diminished soteriology is a result of that. And so, I think the idea in our culture, which I think in the modern West, has a kind of narrative of progress that has been built in since the Enlightenment, which in some ways, again, would not have happened without Christianity, without a sense that time has a trajectory — that is really a Christian idea or at least a going back into the Jewish heritage as well — that we live in this culture that says things should be just getting better and better. Humans should be being perfected through technology, education, science, and all this stuff.

And of course, that is really over the last century since World War I, in many ways been deeply challenged and disrupted and broken down, and yet it still functions, I think, in many ways. And I think people get surprised when their vision of progress isn’t being realized and people feel like, oh, we’re going back. You hear this language a lot, right?

And so, the biblical teaching, which is not progress in that sense of self, human self-salvation or perfectibility through technology, science, or the sell, the state of the market, if you will, but rather that God is in control of history, that God is active in history, and we live in this in-between time where we have this tangible experience of a kind of down payment, if you will, on God’s future, on the kingdom that we experience.

We know it. It’s real. It lives in us and among us and around us in different ways. And yet we yearn for, we look for its completion. It’s bringing all of creation to rights and the restoring of relationships that are broken and the healing of all that’s been that’s been wounded and destroyed and all of that. We have that hope that is a proper hope that we can look forward to and we hold it with just incredible humble mystery, a posture of not trying to manage and fix when that future comes, but trusting that it is the ultimate story.

[00:30:02] Anthony: Looking at verses 13 through 17, how would you herald the God that’s revealed in Jesus Christ here?

[00:30:11] Dwight: Yeah. So again, I love this language of first fruits for salvation and this, again, this stress and this text around God acting to sanctify us through the Holy Spirit, to make us holy, to restore us to holiness, to right relationship with God and each other and the world. And to do that through truth, through a different way of understanding reality that is present in Jesus, right? Jesus as the locus of God’s Word, as the locus of that truth that we know tangibly through his ministry and his presence.

And so, again, the idea here that comes through in this of gratitude and God’s action to choose and claim us being primary, I think is really important to stress. And then, this message about glory is also really interesting, too.

So, what is the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ? You think about Paul’s cultural context. Glory had certain associations in a Roman imperial context, and it was all about military conquest. Military heroes were glorious. Glory of Caesar and all that.

The glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, right? Even using that word, kurios, Lord, which would normally apply to Caesar. Here’s the guy who was crucified shamefully by the Roman Empire. He’s actually the glorious one. How revolutionary this is!

So, if our ideas of glory are shaped by human cultures and empires, we will miss the profoundly subversive message here of glory being found in a God who is willing to join us, suffer with us, and for us. And claim us in the very worst of human circumstances. That’s the kind of glory we know that is a love that shows up, that is present and reaches through even the hate that we send and bring to that very person, right? If we’re the ones crucifying Christ and Christ is saying, “Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing.”

[00:32:33] Anthony: It’s such good news. Such good news. Yes. Yes, it is. And I like to say to churches, the gospel is good news and so, this is what we need to speak to one another. We speak life. If there’s one place, we should show up each and every week and expect to hear good news, it should be the church of Jesus Christ proclaiming his word. Amen and amen.

Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s 2 Thessalonians 3:6–13. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 28 in Ordinary Time, November 16.

Now we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from every brother or sister living irresponsibly and not according to the tradition that they received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not irresponsible when we were with you, 8 and we did not eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day so that we might not burden any of you. 9 This was not because we do not have that right but in order to give you an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this command: anyone unwilling to work should not eat. 11 For we hear that some of you are living irresponsibly, mere busybodies, not doing any work. 12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. 13 Brothers and sisters, do not be weary in doing what is right.

So, what’s Paul doing here? Is he inviting us to condemn brothers and sisters who are not living as we are living? He gives an imperative in verse 6, to keep away from people living irresponsibly and according to tradition. Easy for me to say. What’s going on here, Dwight?

[00:34:40] Dwight: Yeah. So, this is a very interesting text for us to wrestle with in today’s church because we, of course, become very uncomfortable often when we think about, we’re supposed to keep away from our sisters and brothers in Christ. And often a lot of churches for good reasons, really want to have a generous spirit of inclusion and not shame or exclude people. But I think part of what we need to get back to is what does it mean to live faithfully in this in-between time as a community, again, justified and sanctified by Christ in the Spirit for a particular purpose of witness and faithfulness in the world? And I wonder to me if Paul in this isn’t saying, look, there are people who are bringing discredit to the gospel in the ways that they are living again, living irresponsibly. Maybe it’s just that they’re like, hey, we don’t need to do any work because we’re expecting Jesus, to come back and take care of the mess. We’re not going contribute to our own livelihood, to loving our neighbor, to serving our neighbor, to being productive kind of citizens of the community

Paul’s saying, “Hey, wait a minute, you’re really missing out on what it means to live in this in-between time and to be the Body of Christ.” And so, I think what’s at stake in this is something really bigger than simply shunning someone. It is about, what is the integrity of our vocation as the church in this time, right? So, when he talks about people living irresponsibly, not doing any work: if to follow Jesus to be a Christian means that we just give up on loving and serving our neighbors, Paul has no patience with that. I think he’s saying, no, no, no. Our witness to our neighbors is going to be not in us withdrawing in that way, but in us actually loving them and serving sacrificially and as Jesus did, and being able to name a reason for the hope that is within us as to why we do that.

I think there’s, of course, lots of different moments in church history. We can look and say people withdrew and gave up everything waiting for Jesus to come back. And then were disappointed in some way and I think God doesn’t really want that. God wants us to be engaged with our neighbors in a way that is, you know, generous and fruitful, because that’s where the witness takes place.

[00:37:33] Anthony: I love how you talk about vocation in the in-between times and this inaugurated eschatology and this vocation, this calling can feel like work, right? At the end of the day, it can feel like work, a heaviness to it.

And Paul gives the statement to not be weary in doing what is right. And so, I’m going invite you to maybe make this personal. Have you experienced weariness in doing good and or witnessed it in others who are close to you? And if so, what would you suggest is underneath that lived experience? And how do we address it?

[00:38:23] Dwight: And yeah. Absolutely. I absolutely have experienced weariness like I think so many of us have, right, in trying to both to follow Jesus and to love others in the context of that. And I think underneath that so often is, what’s our relationship with God? How goes your walk with Jesus, in the sense of, are you grounded in the practices of spiritual presence in which God’s grace is made known to you daily in which you can sink into that embrace?

I think often when I’ve grown weary, it’s when I have fallen into a pattern of self-justification, when I think it’s all up to me, and I’ve got to just work harder, and my own spiritual rhythms and practices have gotten out of whack. And I’m not keeping a Sabbath or I’m not doing the kind of practices of prayer and scripture reading each day or whatever that would ground me in God’s presence.

And I see this sometimes with leaders. It’s very easy as a leader, it can be heady to be at the center of everything and to be the one who’s bringing the energy and really trying to fix everything for everyone and do it all. And I think when we fall into that trap, we very easily grow weary as a way of just missing, I think again, this basic premise that central to faith, a life of faith is trusting that God’s ultimate. And it’s just hard to remember that and practice out of that kind of place. And when we don’t, we really do very easily grow weary and, gosh, we think of a lot of leaders of various sorts, not just pastors, but other kinds of leaders who end up falling into all kinds of misconduct and things like that because they’re just not grounded in that way.

And so, I think it’s important when we think about the importance of spiritual practices in our lives not to think of those as justifying activities on a list of many things to do, we’ve got to tick those boxes, but rather as the spaces through which we are rooted in the vine as branches as in the John 15 kind of way of Jesus and his love. And if we’re living out of some other kind of rootedness, some other kind of soil, if you will, ultimately, we’re not going to bear fruit. We’re going end up burning out.

[00:40:57] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word. And I agree with everything you said and you just were speaking about rootedness. I have also found in my own personal walk that when I isolate from community in any way, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that’s where weariness sets in. I just firmly believe healing happens in community. And should we be surprised by that we’re made in the image and likeness of a triune God, Father, Son, and Spirit, a community of other-centeredness. That’s where the good stuff happens. And if we isolate in any way, it’s just not good. It’s unhealthy and, at least for me, that’s where weariness and burnout can set in. A word for all of us. Yeah.

Our final pericope of the month is Colossians 1:11-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Reign of Christ Sunday on November 23. Dwight, this is one of my favorite passages, so read it well, brother. No pressure.

[00:42:02] Dwight: All right, so here we go.

May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, so that you may have all endurance and patience, joyfully 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

[00:43:20] Anthony: Whew. That is a doozy of a passage and I want to give you an opportunity to proclaim it, to just riff on the supremacy of Christ. So, preach, preacher. What would you say?

[00:43:31] Dwight: Oh, yes. This is such a rich — it’s really almost a hymn, I think, or a poem almost, in the way that it is just so rich. And I think where I want to go in this is thinking about these terms, strength, and power: “may you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power.”

His glorious power, right? From God’s glorious power, from Jesus’ power, which again, is power that’s made known in weakness, that’s revealed on a cross, “so that you may have all the endurance and patience, giving thanks to the Father.” So, this sense of needing to endure patiently. And the root of patience, of course, is to suffer, right?

[00:44:15] Anthony: Yes.

[00:44:16] Dwight: As we’re taking this journey together with an eye toward an inheritance, right? We have this gift that’s coming from God and he’s transferred us from the power of darkness, from the dominion, if you will, of the world and its powers into this kingdom, this reign of his Son, which is this upside-down reign where the crucified God is the ultimate authority, right? It’s turning on its head so much of what we see in our world and its structures. And being transferred into that realm, if you will.

I used to live in Virginia and I used to joke when I lived the, in Virginia, as we talked about, the old dominion and the new creation. I like it. And so, even though we were living still the old dominion of Virginia, we were living in the new creation, right? And so, we’ve been transferred into that kingdom, that new creation. And so, what does this yield for us? It’s this redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

And I think so many of people in our society are living haunted by the mistakes they’ve made, the estrangement and broken relationships that they suffer and don’t know where to turn for an alternative. How, what’s a way out of this, right? And so, people just double down. Again, as we talked about earlier, grievance or resentment or enmity, hate, and things like that.

But Paul here is saying, we have this gift that fundamentally reorients our relationships. And it begins with God’s relationship with us, and that is restored in Christ, right? The forgiveness of sins, the redemption, the freeing from whatever we’ve done, from all of the things that have kept us from God and from one another. We have been transferred into this other reality that we live in. And we have the grace and the power and the strength that comes from that so that we might suffer, endure, serve, minister joyfully, right? This paradox here of freedom and joy that comes through being restored to our kind of relationship that is not about our own kind of self-justification or self-aggrandizement, but really about being joined in Christ to God’s life and then through Christ to one another. We live not to ourselves, but to Christ.

There’s so much here in this text. But I think if we can unpack these words and bring it down to earth for regular people, saying, what is it that’s keeping you from the freedom of trusting that God has made you right with God and is freeing you to be right in right relationship with everyone else in your life?

[00:47:23] Anthony: You know this song, poem, hymn to the supremacy of Christ is a theological tour de force, right? And so, I’m curious from your perspective, what are the theological implications of the statement — and it’s just an awesome statement — that the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Christ.

[00:47:47] Dwight: So, I love, again, I love this. This is about the incarnation and I think so often, Christians don’t take the incarnation as seriously as we should. There’s a kind of lingering, often Docetism, I think, that happens in the church where people are kind of, “Yeah, yeah, God became flesh, but we’re not really comfortable with like, how that actually works.”

So, I don’t know if you’re a Chosen fan or if you watch The Chosen, but there’s a remarkable. documentary called Jonathan and Jesus. I don’t if you’ve seen that, but …

Anthony: Yes. I haven’t watched it, but I did see it advertised.

Dwight: So, it’s about Jonathan Rumi, who of course is the actor who plays Jesus in The Chosen. And it’s a little documentary following around his own story. It is really quite remarkable. He’s a faithful disciple of Jesus himself. But what’s powerful to me watching that is they show him being in public different places in the world and people will just come up to him and almost ask for a blessing from him or almost fall at his feet just because they know he’s Jonathan Rumi, the actor, and there’s something about the image, the presence of, here’s this person, embodying the Lord. Even it’s just in a show that we’re watching on TV, but the physicality of that, the tangible incarnation of that, has this effect on people. And you see these people just weeping and wanting his blessing.

And I think there’s something in that that’s a reminder of when Jesus came in human flesh to be with us to heal and redeem and restore us. That is the only way that God could restore human nature from the fall to its glory — that taking, sharing our place, taking our place, if you will, is the way, right? And it’s the kind of crazy claim of Christianity, the scandalous claim, right, from the very beginning it’s been offensive to all kinds of people and yet it is the good news for us that God has joined us in the flesh, right?

So, when I read in this about the fullness of God dwelling in Christ, it is to say that — I’ll go back to Martin Luther — that what we know of God’s love is what we see in the life, in the face of Jesus, and particularly in the suffering of Jesus, his willingness to join us in the worst of human experience.

And so, if we can trust that God’s love is that deep and that wide, and that profound, to meet us where we are, even when we hate him, even when we crucify him, then there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God, to get to Romans 8, that there is truly nothing that can that can separate us. And I just think that is a message we need to hear over and over again. We have a lot of stories, a lot of figures in our culture that are trying to be literally influencers, to influence us in different ways. And so many of them are leading us astray from God’s way.

And so, for us to recenter ourselves and say, if we want to know what ultimate reality is like, if we want to know what human nature, what abundant life, a good life is like, we need to focus on Jesus and we see it in him. We see it in the whole of his life, death, and resurrection. And we are to be conformed into that image through the power of the Holy Spirit, through the practices of the community in life together.

[00:52:06] Anthony: Amen and amen. There is no other God behind the back of Jesus. He is the highest resolution image that we have of the very nature and being of God as the writer of Hebrews tells us. And God was pleased to have his fullness dwell in Christ. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Gospel Reverb exists to help pastors and preachers and teachers proclaim the word. And I just want to remind our listening audience that I believe the best kind of preaching leaves the congregation talking about Jesus, not the preacher, not the sermon, but Jesus and the text that was read. So, thank you for what you’re doing.

Dwight, it’s been a joy having you on the podcast. It’s a delight to meet you and we praise God for the work that he’s doing in and through you, especially helping the church understand how we can be swept up in all the good things God is doing through his mission. Thank you so much for joining us, and I also want to thank our team of people who make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s a joy to work with them. And again, Dwight, thank you. It’s our tradition on Gospel Reverb to end with prayer, and we’d be delighted if you’d pray for us.

[00:53:21] Dwight: Wonderful. Let’s pray. God, our Creator, we just give you thanks for the ways in which you are renewing the world, the ways in which you have joined us in Christ and bound yourself in love to us to heal all that is broken and estranged and all of the things that keep us from living abundantly. And Lord, we just pray that your Spirit may encourage all of the listeners on this podcast, all of those who are entrusted with the sacred work of proclaiming your Word. May you give them confidence and clarity and wisdom. Help them to listen carefully to their people. Help them to be rooted in you and your presence and your love. And Lord, we just pray for all those neighbors outside of our churches who don’t know your gospel, Lord, that all your people may live into their vocations as witnesses and ambassadors of reconciliation. Lord, we pray for encouragement and hope always in the gospel. We pray this in Jesus’ name and in the power of the Spirit. Amen.

[00:54:32] Anthony: Amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

The post Dr. Dwight Zscheile—Year C Proper 26-28, Reign of Christ first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Rev. Dr. Eun Strawser—Year C Proper 22-25

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Reverend E.K. Strawser. Dr. Strauser is the co-vocational lead pastor of Ma Ke Alo o, which means presence in Hawaiian. These are non-denominational, missional communities multiplying in Honolulu. And, on top of that, she’s a community physician.

She’s the founder of `Iwa Collaborative, a consulting and content-developing firm to empower kingdom-grounded leaders to navigate change, grow adaptive capacity, and foster local flourishing. Prior to transitioning to Hawaii, she served as adjunct professor of medicine at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and of African Studies at her alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, where she and her husband served with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. She’s the author of the book Centering Discipleship, and she and Steve have three seriously amazing children.

Eun, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we want to get to know you a bit and one of the ways we’re going get to know you, first of all, I have to ask this question. Which of these three seriously amazing children is your favorite?

[00:02:06] Eun: I am a person who does not lie. We do have favorites. All you listeners out there who are parents, you all know you do have your favorite. Ours is our oldest, our three kids know this already, but that is my favorite part of my bio, that last line that Steve and I truly do have three amazing children.

[00:02:25] Anthony: It sounds like you do. And we’re praying for the other two. I’m sure they know they’re loved as well, but I’m glad you’re being honest because sometimes we do have favorites and usually for me, it’s the one that’s in the room at the moment. And so, as we get to know you a bit more, what projects are you working on? How are you participating with the Lord Jesus Christ these days, Eun?

[00:02:47] Eun: Man, if we don’t model that our everyday kind of choices in living is how we imitate Jesus and not just through, let’s say, “projects”, then I think for any of us who are in leadership positions we would be failing at what we’re actually calling those God has given us lead and love to actually do. So, a big chunk of my day, is obviously caring for my patients here in a local context — that’s my big contribution. But Steve and I love our neighbors. We love the neighborhood that we live in. We don’t just lead and love our congregants in our church, but we love the neighbors who live on either side of our homes and in and down our street.

And I think if we learned anything about how Christians are supposed to behave and act throughout the pandemic, that probably was an unveiling of how “Christian” are imitators of Jesus. Are we really at the level of how we do our daily lives? What kinds of decisions do we make on a day-to-day basis? So, we try to, I at least try to, put that in the forefront.

[00:03:53] Anthony: Yeah, I’m amazed that as I looked over your bio, all the things that you’re doing and involved in beyond just your family, which I know is a big priority for you as a doctor.

By the way, can I get a free consultation? Because there’s something that’s been concerning me. No, I’m playing. I’m playing.

Eun: Get in line.

Anthony: Right. Right. As a doctor and embedded in the community that way, how has that helped you as a pastor, as a leader of leaders within your church environment? Just curious about how that serves the neighborhood.

[00:04:27] Eun: Yeah. I think that, especially here in Hawaii, if you’re not locally rooted in any kind of field of work that you do, then there’s a huge suspicion about why you’re here. I’m not from Hawaii originally. My family immigrated from South Korea during like the third wave of the Immigration Act lifting up so that my family and a lot of East Asians were immigrating to predominantly the East coast. So, I did most of my growing up and adulting in Philadelphia, in West Philadelphia in particular. Everyone’s having the song go through their heads right now.

But then about 15 years ago, we moved our three kids, and my husband and I, we moved to Hawaii. And Hawaii has this thing about it. You don’t have credibility or a trust that you actually contribute to the community unless you’re here for 20 years. So even 15 years sound like a long time, but we’re still five years shy of what is culturally accepted as okay. You’re not just here transitioning. You’re here to actually be a part and with our community. So, I feel like being able to doctor on top of pastoring in church planting has given me a more sense of a deeply rooted presence for the folks here in Hawaii. It’s helped.

[00:05:51] Anthony: We’re so thankful, as Paul talked about, that we participate in the sufferings of Christ, that you’re suffering in paradise in Hawaii. Thank you for doing that for the sake of the gospel, Eun. But I did want to ask you —I know you’ve written a book and you have, if I’m not mistaken, another book coming out soon, and that’s the one I want to ask you about, because I grew up in a pastor-centric church environment and also a work environment where the mindset was, if you want it done right, do it yourself, which doesn’t exactly build teams, does it? But your latest book, You Are Never Meant to Lead Alone, I’m guessing, has to provide a better pathway forward. So, would you tell us about the premise of the book and what your hopeful outcomes will be for the readers?

[00:06:34] Eun: Yeah, absolutely. My first book Centering Discipleship, I always say that it was a love letter to my local church. I feel like it is not just a book on discipleship but something that helps to celebrate that when the entire local community gets behind discipleship actually being centered in your community, in your congregation, then it’s the work of that whole team coming alive, all imitating Jesus together.

So, a lot of the work that from this new book on You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone really came from that first work. But this new book, really, I always say that it’s a love letter to myself — probably a lot of the suffering and pains, growing pains, unsolicited pain that’s brought about just from leading.

Leading is lonely. It’s hard work. It leads to a lot of burnout, and it can also lead to a lot of domineering, hurtful leadership. And so, I really wanted to write not just a leadership story that also centers somebody who might be familiar, similar to me — someone who is a woman pastor, co-vocational who is an immigrant, who is a person of color. All of these things culminating in them — can someone like that also lead?

And what kinds of environments can should all people in the church lead? And if you’re taking a look at the first-century church, it really was that nobody was meant to lead alone. That the first-century church really modeled, especially if you read all throughout Acts, that leadership was shared amongst the most unlikely of characters and heroes together.

So, it really is a reminder, not a new concept, but a reminder to the church that if you’re burnt out, feeling lonely, or you’re in a situation of domineering leadership, that’s not what church leadership was meant to be like. It’s meant to be shared because power was meant to be shared.

[00:08:39] Anthony: It’s fascinating and I know in my church tribe, denominational tribe, we’re talking a lot about team-based ministry, so I think this book will be of great interest. Where would you, in terms of outlets, content outlet, where would you send people to go buy the book?

[00:08:56] Eun: Oh, it’s Amazon. Really?

[00:09:00] Anthony: Maybe people have heard of it.

[00:09:02] Eun: Everything has been on Amazon. Or you can go to IVP also, that’s our publisher.

[00:09:19] Anthony: Okay. Again, the book is called You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, and the author is Eun Strawser. Go get your copy.

All right, let’s do this. Let’s dive into the lectionary text that we’ll be discussing for this month. Our first pericope is 2 Timothy 1:1–14. I’m going be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 22 in Ordinary Time, October 5.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, for the sake of the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I am grateful to God—whom I worship with a clear conscience, as my ancestors did—when I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. 4 Recalling your tears, I long to see you so that I may be filled with joy. 5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that lived first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, lives in you. 6 For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands, 7 for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline. 8 Do not be ashamed, then, of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel, in the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, and this grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 For this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher, 12 and for this reason I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know the one in whom I have put my trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that day the deposit I have entrusted to him. 13 Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard the good deposit entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.

I’m curious, Eun, what role does family have in faith? Because Paul points out how Timothy’s grandmother and mother, were instrumental in his faith. And feel free to make this personal.

[00:11:49] Eun: Oh man, even just from that reading, I need to go sit in a corner, have a good cry. It was so beautiful, Anthony. Oh, it feels so convicting, right? Hearing those words — such a personal letter from the Apostle Paul to someone, a young man that he’s invested so much of his life and work and leadership into.

So, it’s just beautiful that he talks about, what is your origin story, right? He’s trying to make it really clear to Timothy that one, that his life is not his own, that there is a whole line, a trainload of people who have come before him to get him to this point now.

So, I think family is probably a pivotal for two different reasons, especially as imitators of Jesus. I think one is, it really makes a note for us to have to remember, what are the previous sacrifices and sufferings that other people have put in to get us to our point now? I know from my own story I’m one of the first in my family line to become a Christian.

But when I go back — and as a young person, I resented the fact that I was one of the first Christians in my family and how can my parents do this? And yet when I sit down and ask them stories and stories about what happened in their own life, I just can’t help but see all of God’s hands caring for them, leading them to the point where they got to know Jesus, even though it was after me, but in the way that it cared for me.

One particular example is when I was in my mother’s womb, my parents are really impoverished. I was the last child of many numbers of children and my mom hadn’t told my father that she was pregnant. And she wanted to go and get a secret abortion. At that time in South Korea, it was very shameful, so, nobody talked about it.

And, lo and behold, she’s in the cover of night and a person happened to stop her and it happened to be the local village pastor. She wasn’t a Christian back then. It was the first time that she ever even entered the building of a church, and he asked her to come so he could pray for her.

And she was very, very nervous and he prayed that this child would, that God would use his child to help his name be known to her family. And this is my mother telling me as an adult and I just think that, oh, all this time God honored, not just me, and saved me and rescued me.

But he’s been holding my mom’s hand whether she knew him at the moment or not. He was holding my father’s hand, my grandparents and all of those things. So, I love that Paul reminds Timothy of his, both his mother and his grandmother’s faith, and how much he has gained honor and all the gifts that he has because of that.

I think the second point about family is I think that God really emphasizes the fact how we view family. If we don’t begin to, as Jesus-imitators, see family the way that God does, then we will probably contribute to a lot of bias, a lot of competition, a lot of us-versus-them mentality that honestly, that is overdone in the world today.

I think the kingdom of God is trying to offer that. If we begin to see family the way that God does, that there’s an open adoption constantly at the ready, God’s constantly welcoming a new family member, a new kid, a new brother, a sister into the fold, I think that we would think about our own families a little bit differently as well.

[00:15:37] Anthony: Yeah, I was just sharing with a friend yesterday that thanks be to God that the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to see the family resemblance in others. And once you see that family resemblance, it changes. It changes relationships, it changes the way that you interact with people on social media, right?

This is a brother, this is a sister, this is the beloved of God. How dare I not treat them with dignity and respect? And also, I thank God for the brothers and sisters in the faith that God has given us this family. And I just in this moment, Eun, I’m just so grateful for that village pastor and your mom’s receiving of that, willingness to go into an unknown territory so that God could minister to her. Praise God for that. We’re so glad you’re here.

What do you think it means to not be ashamed of our testimony of the Lord? It’s stated in verse 8, and I’m just thinking about the times in Scripture where it tells us that God is never going put us to shame. He’s never going leave us at the altar. So, what does it mean to flip that around and not be ashamed of our testimony?

[00:16:44] Eun: Yeah, I think testimony is everything, especially in a culture now where storytelling and the narrative is king. I think whatever part of culture that best tells the best story about humanity, about what love is, about what, let’s say, leadership is, or what family is, I think that constantly tells the rest of the world, the rest of culture, how they’re supposed to behave and act and what kinds of decisions they’re supposed to make.

And so, testimony which is storytelling, which is storytelling that witnesses the faithfulness and love and kindness and mercy of God — that is king. If there’s anything that any of us as Jesus followers should be really honing in our gifts and strengths and work in, it’s really fine tuning and working on, what is the testimony? Would we be able to give it at a drop of a hat, right?

I know in our community being able to give our own testimony or a witness or storytelling, we always say it’s do you know your own story as part of God’s big story? That’s the equipping we do for all of our disciples. And it’s because we really want to prepare and equip all of the Jesus followers in our local community that their story is important, but also that their story is embedded within God’s beautiful story for us and for the world.

So, if our testimony is something that we’re afraid of sharing because we think we’re terrible storytellers or we’re not good communicators, what a loss of story, what a loss of narrative — that Christians should be able to be telling the best story, the best narrative about humanity to the world today.

[00:18:36] Anthony: It reminds me of Maya Angelou’s quote that one of the great sadness in human existence is an untold story living inside you. That story needs to be told, and like you said, it’s embedded in God’s story. That’s why when I think of the grand narrative of holy scripture, like when we preach and proclaim the gospel how dare us make it boring, because it’s such a fascinating story, right? It is beautiful and it’s fascinating and it’s glorious and I know some of us are maybe not as charismatic as others, but it’s such a magnificent story. Let’s tell it well. Amen. Amen.

[00:19:11] Eun: Yeah, and I think it’s also that it shouldn’t just be a small group of people who are professional storytellers who should be equipped to tell God’s story. The whole point is that the full gospel is meant to be shared by everybody, with everybody, right? I can’t do this by myself. I need to equip my local church to know God’s full story, that they practice articulating it, communicating it, not just training and equipping Jesus followers to be good hearers of God’s story. They should be excellent sharers of God’s story.

[00:19:45] Anthony: Ooh, yes and amen. The priesthood of all believers, right?

All right, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is 2 Timothy 2:8–15. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 23 in Ordinary Time, October 12. We’d be grateful if you read it for us, please.

[00:20:09] Eun: Absolutely.

Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David—that is my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship, even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, so that they may also obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. 11 The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us; 13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself. 14 Remind them of this, and warn them before the Lord that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.

[00:21:04] Anthony: Scripture tells us that the Word of God is not chained, Eun, as Paul wrote in verse 9. For me, this seems to be quite the theological statements and more what say you.

[00:21:16] Eun: Yeah, I love that if you think about that word “a chaining” most of us can have certain images, right? For some cultures you can think of imprisonment or enslavement. Others, it feels like restriction. But I love that whatever kind of image that comes in mind for us in the word “chain,” the Apostle Paul is saying that God’s Word doesn’t interact that way.

It’s not a dealing with any type of enslavement or imprisonment or being restricted — that there’s no bounds with it. It is never chained down. It’s never restricted. It will only do what it’s meant to do — constantly. And so, I love that the Word of God not being chained also doesn’t bear responsibility on us. There’s nothing that we can do to enhance it or limit it — that God’s Word is freely just constantly expanding and growing. It gets more and more beautiful as time goes on.

So, I love that Paul’s reminder to Timothy is, I think it really is, a word like, do your best for sure. Keep on proclaiming God’s truth, but don’t worry, your human failures and mistakes will never limit God’s Word. I think the other thing about God’s Word not being chained is that restriction point — that I think that it also is a word to say that God’s Word and God’s story — again, going to that full gospel — is that it needs to be not restricted by just one culture. That whatever locally rooted place that we may all be living in or be ministering in and loving Jesus and loving others in, that the gospel makes sense to that local culture too. That it isn’t some human culture that we’re trying to present, that it’s another effort to colonize or assimilate a different culture. It’s that God’s Word is not chained up or bound up by human deeds or mechanics. That God’s Word is understandable and relatable and beautiful and true in every single local context.

[00:23:30] Anthony: Yeah, and I sometimes, this is just a personal pet peeve of mine. I don’t know if you’d agree with me, Eun. But I’ll hear people say we’ve got to make the Word of God relevant. I just find it is relevant and you contextualize it to your situation, but it’s always relevant. And it was relevant then, and it’s relevant now. And as you said, it’s liberating.

And I was just pondering a text in Luke chapter 13 where Jesus encounters a woman who’d been bent over for 18 years and he says, “You are set free.” And that’s what God does and that’s what his Word does, right? It liberates people. And if it’s not liberating, it’s not the Word of God because that’s what the Word of God does. It may mess with you at first and it may get all up in your grill, but it sets you free because that’s who God is.

I find verse 13 to be so very encouraging. If we are faithless or feeling like we’re not full of faith in one day, we find that Jesus Christ remains faithful. Do you find that encouraging and what would you want to share with our audience?

[00:24:36] Eun: Oh man. It’s not meant to be convicting, that’s for sure. Or accusatory. I love that there’s so much mercy. But what a wonderful life and call that God gives us, right, that he’s saying that we are fully capable and able to live a life imitating Jesus, that this is good for us, this is good for our family, this is good for our neighborhoods, this is good for the world around us.

But it doesn’t bank on your strength. It doesn’t demand a perfection from you, that you can have bad days and God is full of mercy. This whole thing works. This big project of the gospel transforming all of us in the world around us only works, not because of our strength. It only works because Jesus is faithful, because he’s the faithful one. I think that it’s not meant to be convicting, that it’s supposed to be great encouragement that God is truly with us in this.

[00:25:41] Anthony: And he is the faithful one. And what I find is some people are afraid when the gospel, as they would say, gives away too much.

We don’t want to be faithful, so of course we don’t. But because we know he is faithful and we live and move and have our being in him, this is a faithful response — to be faithful because he’s so good, right? And so thankful that we can look to Jesus and see not only an example, but the one who abides in us by his Spirit, helping us to be faithful and strong.

Let’s move on to our next text. It’s 2 Timothy 3:14–4:5. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, October 19.

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have known sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work. 4 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I solemnly urge you: 2 proclaim the message; be persistent whether the time is favorable or unfavorable; convince, rebuke, and encourage with the utmost patience in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound teaching, but, having their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths. 5 As for you, be sober in everything, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, carry out your ministry fully.

Eun, I’d be grateful for your exegesis of 2 Timothy 3:14–17. Feel free to preach, preacher.

[00:27:52] Eun: It’s a hard one, right? I do love that. I think a lot of times when people read this passage, they miss the point. I think that they can misrepresent what Paul is trying to tell Timothy to do. And I think most of the time it’s really for Timothy to just be a good preaching pastor, or a good teaching pastor, right? But no, the biggest thing that the Pastor Paul is telling why he’s talking about what scripture is like and what God’s Word is able to do, right?

[00:28:31] Anthony: Yes.

[00:28:31] Eun: It really is because he’s saying equip God’s people for every good work. Get them to a point where they are proficient in what it means to be a Jesus follower. That doesn’t necessarily just mean preach to them or teach them a scripture. It means get them ready, get them prepared.

Are all of your congregants able to be proficient? Are they competent in not just knowing a lot about God and who Jesus is and those kinds of things, but are they actually competent to live like Jesus? Are they competent and proficient to do God’s good work with their neighbors through their family, in their workplaces, at the coffee shop that they go to regularly, in the grocery store, in neighborhood parties, or neighborhood meetings, right?

I think that’s what the apostle Paul is saying, can you do the good work? Can you be faithful and endure and do this good work of not doing God’s work on behalf of your church? It’s can you get your church equipped so that they are doing God’s work together for the sake of the flourishing of the neighborhood around them?

I think that’s a strong emphasis to remember that the Apostle Paul is not telling Timothy to be a good preacher. He’s telling him to be a good equipper so that his congregation can participate in the good work that God’s already doing.

[00:29:55] Anthony: Yeah, that’s an important word. Paul wrote in Ephesians 4 that our call is to equip the saints for the works of Christ. And I think the pastors moving forward, they really need to be taken a posture of a coach, one who empowers others so that we see the whole body mature into the head who is Christ, right?

And what this keeps us from doing is what we talked about earlier from being pastor-centric, right? If we’re equipping the believers, we’re going to do this together.

[00:30:31] Eun: You must have already read my book, Anthony.

[00:30:35] Anthony: I was going to say, if you need, if you’re a pastor and you need help in this area, I know somebody who runs a collaborative called `Iwa Collaborative. They may be able to help you out with this.

As we look on Paul writes to persist in proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times. I get the sense that right now in a post-Christian neopagan world, these are unfavorable times. So, what does it look like, Eun, to persist?

[00:31:04] Eun: Isn’t it so encouraging that the same problem that was written about all that time ago, it’s the same problem that we are facing today.

I think it’s great encouragement that Timothy and Paul are going through the same persistence in proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times, and so are we. And I love that the apostle Paul gives Timothy a lot of clarity around what that ought to look like, right? He talks a lot about our motivation to lead.

Man, that’s so convicting, right? He’s saying, please double check why you lead, why you think God has given you this group of people to lead and love. If it’s for selfish gain and selfish desire, then you probably ought not to lead. But if it’s so that, again you are trying to proclaim God’s truth because you believe that God’s truth is the only transforming power that will actually, in real life, in real time, transform a community of people to also want to participate in what God’s doing in the world around them, man, what a call for all of us. But if it has any inkling of a selfish desire or selfish ambition, and this is why we are fulfilling our call, then we probably should step aside.

So, I think that the first thing around proclaiming the gospel in unfavorable times is really to review our own motivations as leaders. Do we do this because we think that there’s a personal gain for us in it, we get popularity somehow? We get to have power and control. We just feel good having this mantle. Or do we do it for the sake of other people?

I think the second thing about persistence is, I love that it just relies on God’s truth. That if you really stick to proclaiming God’s truth, you don’t have to do this weird, convincing, performative perfection dance. Let God’s Word do its thing. I think that is what the Apostle Paul is telling Timothy — live out God’s truth. Proclaim God’s truth in every way that you are equipping other people or living your own life or making decisions. Like, if you stick close to God’s Word and God’s truth, … that is the way to persevere through unfavorable times.

God’s Word is not that popular most of the time. When we are speaking truth against power, that’s not popular most of the time. If we’re naming the fact that there are people who are ostracized and marginalized in society, that’s not popular to talk about. If we talk about that, really, essentially, the gospel is really very comforting, it ought to be comforting to those who are the most uncomfortable in society and make uncomfortable those who experience most comfort in society. That is an upside-down way of thinking, right? It should have an impact. And so, I think that gospel is made for unfavorable times.

[00:34:12] Anthony: It is, and I couldn’t help but think of that old statement that the gospel should comfort the afflicted. But it should afflict the comfortable. And that’s what it does, and I’m reading this a great new little book called Preaching in a New Key. And it’s about preaching to post-Christian societies like we’re living in.

And the author of the book said this. Are we — going back to what you asked — what is our motivation? Are we motivated because we’re called to preach or are we just offloading trauma? And I was like, whoa. It’s in your face, but it’s true.

We’ve got to check ourselves as ministers of the gospel. Is it love? Because that’s the motivation, right? It is love. The love of Christ may manifest in our lives, and that’s why we proclaim this good news in the face of opposition, for sure.

Alright friends, we’re down to our last text. Time is flying by. It is 2 Timothy 4:6–8, 16–18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 25 in Ordinary Time, October 26. Would you read it for us please?

[00:35:30] Eun:

As for me, I am already being poured out as a libation, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. 8 From now on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing. 16 At my first defense no one came to my support, but all deserted me. May it not be counted against them! 17 But the Lord stood by me and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

[00:36:17] Anthony: Amen. “But the Lord stood by me and gave me strength.” Those are such good words. What would you say to Christians who want to declare with confidence like Paul did, “I fought the good fight.” Maybe they haven’t finished the race yet, but they’re running the race faithfully. What gives Paul the right to make such a bold claim?

[00:36:37] Eun: Oh, I’m like crying in my little corner again, reading that passage. I actually think that it’s what Paul has been talking about all along. It’s that it’s because Jesus has already done that work. He’s already fought that fight. He’s already finished that race. And again, he is the one who is most faithful.

So, I feel like Paul’s bold claim isn’t really about him. His boldness and his confidence still rest in the fact that he can do all of these things and proclaim all these things about himself because he’s relied in utter, utter dependence on Jesus the Christ.

[00:37:17] Anthony: Preach. Yes.

[00:37:18] Eun: I think that, and I just love that the things that he talks about is he’s going receive this crown of righteousness and all these things, and it’s because all he did was long for Jesus, long to be in his presence, long for his appearing. I love that. That’s where the effort lies in. Do we like love Jesus that much?

When you think about a bold proclamation in today’s society that maybe humiliates us or makes us feel a little bit shy, but we still feel like it’s worth it to do it, it really always centers around love, doesn’t it? Romantic love and those silly stories and movies and things. So, we’re captivated by it because some, for some reason, it transforms people to do these things. And I love that at the end, Paul is proclaiming that he’s loved Jesus, that he’s loved God, that he’s longed for him all this time. And I think that’s where his boldness comes from.

[00:38:19] Anthony: The scripture says, but the Lord stood by me and gave me strength. Verse 17. As a final word, Eun, how have you personally experienced the Lord standing by you and giving you strength in your own life? We’d love to hear from you.

[00:38:35] Eun: Yeah, I think again, my new book You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, a love letter to myself, and I say this, embarrassed, a little bit shy about it, but I wept so much having to recall the suffering and loneliness and pain points in this life, really, really trying to lead in ways and minister in ways where it felt like suffering so many times. And I know that my only strength really is because the Lord stood by me.

I remember when my husband and I had visited Jerusalem and we were in the garden of Gethsemane. And it was such a busy tour and things, but they gave us one little quiet moment to be able to sit and reflect. And I remember just sitting in that garden and crying out to God because it was right after experiencing such a depth of betrayal within the church context.

And I feel like Jesus said, “I understand what it means to be betrayed.” This is him telling me in the Garden of Gethsemane. And he said, “And yet, I still moved forward. I still said a “yes” to being crucified because there’s resurrection on the other side of it.” And I felt like only Jesus could call me forward that way because he’s experienced all of the suffering and so much in greater amount than I ever will.

And so, yeah. The Lord stood by me and gave me strength in my darkest of times, in times of betrayal, in times of loneliness, in times of failure, the mistakes. The Lord stood by me and gave me strength.

[00:40:26] Anthony: And it seems that way to me, Eun. Thank you for sharing that story of your own experience.

The scripture time and time again takes us back to remembering, like, remember what the Lord has done for you. I’m thinking of Hagar in the desert when God meets her in her moment of just great distress and saves her, and she calls him El Roi, the God Who Sees. I think it’s so important that we remember, God sees us; he sees the pain; he understands. We have a high priest who understands.

And that’s just such a good word because anytime we’re standing up proclaiming the gospel in a church, there are people in the pews that are really, really hurting. And to be able to say … and I thank you for sharing your story, and I know you said it’s maybe hard to talk about, but I’m grateful for that because your strength that you receive from the Lord strengthens me.

And so, in that way, as I look back on my own life, I give thanks for the times that I was walking through the valley, the shadow of death, because it was in those times that I really sensed the Lord’s presence and his faithfulness and his strength. I give thanks for those times. I don’t want to go back. I don’t want to do it again, but I’m so thankful, and I think it’s just so important as part of our testimony, we share those things, don’t you, because I just think it strengthens the whole body. And so, we do that. And I just thank you for you sharing yours.

I’m grateful for you and I’ve told you this before, but you can be my pastor anytime. It’d be awesome. I’d love to move to Hawaii, but I don’t think that’s in the cards for me. But again, I’m just so grateful for you. And folks check out her books on Amazon, the two books that we’ve previously mentioned.

And I certainly want thank our team that helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. So grateful to work with them and, Eun, as is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we close with a word of prayer. So, thank you for being here and please pray for us.

[00:42:41] Eun: I’d love to. Jesus, I just thank you that you see us. Thank you for being the God who takes the time, makes the effort, values seeing each and every one of us, and I pray that you would give us the courage and boldness and deep sense of joy and love to also see you. Would you make us seeing you be visible and public to those around us? Would our ability to long for your appearing, long for your presence, long to see you face to face be such a love that proclaims to the world around them an invitation to enter into this kind of relationship with you. Where it’s full of flourishing and mercy and grace and truth and beauty that none of us could really imagine fully. Thank you that you understand suffering, you understand betrayal, you understand all of our failures and unfaithful moments, and you remain to be the one who is faithful and is for us. It’s in your good name we pray. Amen.

[00:43:58] Anthony: Amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

The post Rev. Dr. Eun Strawser—Year C Proper 22-25 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson—Year C Proper 18-21

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Rev. Dr. Jared Michelson. Jared is a Presbyterian minister and a research fellow at the University of St. Andrews School of Divinity. His research interests include but not excluded to the doctrine of the divine attributes and Reformed thoughts, the doctrine of God, and the crisis of modernity and theology and economy after Barth.

Jared, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us as a guest, we’d like to get to know you a bit, your story, projects you may be working on, and ultimately how you are participating with the Lord Jesus Christ.

[00:01:31] Jared: Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be with you.

Yeah, I live in St. Andrews, Scotland. I’ve lived here for about 12 years, but I’m from the states originally and came over here to study. But during that time, I was ordained in a denomination here in Scotland and have two young daughters. My wife is named Becky. She came over with me from the States.

We actually had only been married for one month before we moved here. So, our entire married life has been in Scotland. We just decided to do all of the transitions in one glorious and terrifying moment. So yeah. I’m a researcher now, which means in theory, most of my day is meant to be spent researching and writing, although in actual practice a lot of my time ends up being spent teaching and helping with the Divinity School. Here I’m involved with what’s called our Systematic and Historical Theology Masters, and I’m also still very much involved with the church here, both locally and nationally.

[00:02:32] Anthony: Since you’re at St. Andrews, I have to ask you this, because I’ve had friends who have lived there, either participating in the School of Divinity or just going to play a round of golf. And when I ask them about St. Andrews typically, Jared, they get this just far-away look in their eyes of enchantment. What makes St. Andrews so special?

[00:02:54] Jared: Yeah, a lot of things do. Obviously, the big thing I suppose is that it’s the home of golf, the oldest golf course in the world. And so, when you tell a golfer that you live in St. Andrews, and as I do not— you do not — play golf, it’s really like committing a war crime. It’s deeply idolatrous to them. You can lose friends very quickly when you admit you live in St. Andrews and don’t play golf. So that’s one of the reasons. But it’s also the oldest university in Scotland. It’s a beautiful, small town. But one of the things I’ve loved about living here is it’s also a place with a lot of need.

And having been in ministry here, anyone that’s been in ministry, in any community, I think you see there’s the kind of beautiful exterior and then there’s another side that’s maybe not as obvious. So, I love this community. Yes, you can come for a few days and be taken up by the mystique, but there’s also a lot of need, but a lot of wonderful people doing great work seeking to serve Jesus.

I was just for example, at a youth camp this week from a bunch of the different churches and Christian organizations in town — young people hearing about the gospel. So, there’s that side of it which is just as beautiful to me as the kind of golf course and cathedral and things like that.

[00:04:13] Anthony: We already have common ground because for me, that little golf ball Is the embodiment of the Satan. It’s just that I have friends that love golf; I respect them, but nothing drives me more batty than trying to hit that little golf ball.

[00:04:30] Jared: Yeah. We really do have that in common, because I have to confess, I did try playing golf at one point, and so perhaps I’m just a failed golfer more than anything else.

[00:04:38] Anthony: Maybe at some point our paths will cross and we can play golf badly together. So, how’s that? Hey, I wasn’t planning to ask you this, but maybe briefly, what are you researching right now, if you don’t mind me asking it?

[00:04:55] Jared: As you mentioned before, a lot of my work has been on the doctrine of God, which can sound a bit funny. When I first came here, the first three years I was here, I worked in a pub. And if you, obviously, if people say, what are you doing here? And when you say the doctrine of God, people have no idea what that means. So, very soon when people said, what are you doing here? I just would say, I study God, which would oftentimes start some very interesting and strange conversations over a pint.

But, to me, the issue of God’s character, who God is, why we can have confidence that we can know who he is — I see this as the perennial fundamental question of our time. Can we trust that we have good reason to know God? And what is God really like and what difference does that make to every facet of life? So that’s obviously a very general way of putting it, but those are the kind of questions that have motivated all of my academic work, and I’m continuing that trajectory now.

[00:05:46] Anthony: Oh, that’s good. And as we come to the text for this month, we’re always asking the question of theology — who is God and who has he revealed himself to be in Jesus Christ?

Let’s get to it. Let’s move to our first text of the month. It’s Philemon 1:1-21. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 18 in Ordinary Time, September 7, and it reads,

Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To our beloved coworker Philemon, 2 to our sister Apphia, to our fellow soldier Archippus, and to the church in your house: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.4 I thank my God always when I mention you in my prayers, 5 because I hear of your love for all the saints and your faith toward the Lord Jesus. 6 I pray that the partnership of your faith may become effective as you comprehend all the good that we share in Christ. 7 I have indeed received much joy and encouragement from your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, my brother.8 For this reason, though I am more than bold enough in Christ to command you to do the right thing, 9 yet I would rather appeal to you on the basis of love—and I, Paul, do this as an old man and now also as a prisoner of Christ Jesus. 10 I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me. 12 I am sending him, that is, my own heart, back to you. 13 I wanted to keep him with me so that he might minister to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your good deed might be voluntary and not something forced. 15 Perhaps this is the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might have him back for the long term, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother—especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. 17 So if you consider me your partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has wronged you in any way or owes you anything, charge that to me. 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand: I will repay it. I say nothing about your owing me even your own self. 20 Yes, brother, let me have this benefit from you in the Lord! Refresh my heart in Christ. 21 Confident of your obedience, I am writing to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

So, Jared, I wanted to ask you if you were preaching, proclaiming this text to a congregation, what would be the focus of your heralding?

[00:08:50] Jared: There’s loads of different methods that people have for preaching, ways that they organize a sermon. And I don’t think there’s any right one right way or wrong way. And obviously any kind of method like that becomes formulaic can be really unhelpful. And I think you want to be guided by the text itself, not by your method. Nonetheless, sometimes it does help to have something to help organize your thinking a bit.

And for me, one of the things I try to do, especially because when I do preach in St. Andrews, it is to a very diverse audience. It’s not … I can’t assume that people are interested in the gospel, that they accept the authority of scripture. And I feel even in that, to me, the first thing you want to say is you want to earn your right to be heard.

And in this text, I feel like in that sense, it’s very easy because it raises this just profound existential question. Paul is writing to Philemon asking him to accept back this runaway slave, Onesimus, and it raises these questions: Is Paul somehow endorsing slavery? Is he, even if he seems to be appealing on Onesimus’ behalf, but is he in so doing, is he somehow accepting the institution? Does this mean Christianity is pro-slavery? What do we do about the fact that at times Christians in the past were pro-slavery?

So, to me, I think that that’s right where I would go. And I think this passage, when we read it in context, I think it just has an incredibly liberatory message far from — this is a very controversial issue, but I’ll just jump right in — far from endorsing the institution of slavery, in verse 8 and 9, Paul says basically, I could just tell you to do the right thing.

In other words, Philemon, the right thing to do is to release Onesimus. That’s not in doubt. This is someone that is following in the way of Jesus. The question is, how do we move towards this vision of justice? And what I think we find in the New Testament is a text that is not laying out a political vision for society.

For example, when Paul instructs people in Romans 13 to obey the emperor, do we take that and say, “Ah, what this means is Paul is endorsing a politics that has an emperor and he’s opposed to democracy?” No, that, that’s not the sort of text Romans is. Paul isn’t giving his ideal account of how the government should be set up. He’s saying, given the situation you find yourself in, how can you behave in a way that reflects the ethics of the kingdom of God?

And that’s very much what I see Paul doing here as well. He’s not endorsing the institution of slavery. Again, he’s saying, I could tell you the right thing to do. But he’s actually appealing to a deeper motivation. He’s basically saying if you understood the gospel, if you understood the fullness of what you’ve received in Jesus, then this issue would resolve itself. You would realize that what you have here is a brother, and you would have to think through, how do I treat this other in light of their status as a beloved child of God? There is still something provocative for us, though, here, if I can keep going, Anthony. Is that all right?

[00:12:31] Anthony: Please. You’re on a roll, man. Let’s go.

[00:12:33] Jared: What is provocative about it is that we would like Paul to proceed differently. We would think, “Paul, this slaveholder is an evil, wicked person. Why would you possibly say to him, respond to his sin of slaveholding, in this roundabout way that appeals to the gospel of Jesus Christ rather than just exposing his utter wickedness?”

And the truth is, I understand that feeling, there’s something absolutely right about our modern reaction to this text, which lives in a culture that has been I think, informed by the ethic of the gospel and that sees slavery for the horror and the wickedness that it is. And yet what is so beautiful about the gospel is that it meets all of us where we are.

In other words, where the gospel meets the slaveholder in this culture is not at all endorsing their slaveholding, but is nonetheless trying to restore and free the slave, while also redeeming the slaveholder. And so, the challenge of this text is we oftentimes wish that Paul had responded to the slaveholders of his day much more harshly.

And yet, do we want the same for us? Do we think that if God looked at our own wickedness and our own brokenness and the things that we as a culture are totally blind to, that we would merit a different response? I doubt that.

I remember a good friend of mine recently — we were going through a really difficult situation. Someone had made a big mistake that was in our community. And they said to me, it feels like we are free in the church to say we’re sinners but we’re not actually free to commit a bad sin.

In other words, it’s absolutely fine if you get up in front of heaven and you say I’ve sinned in all sorts of ways and state it with generalities and vagueness, but as soon as you say something you’ve done and it is something that is destructive and that is harmful and that hurts another person, we suddenly don’t want people to get grace anymore. We want to go straight in with the law.

[00:15:00] Anthony: Sure.

[00:15:00] Jared: And so, part of what I think is scandalous about Philemon … look, part of it is it’s a difficult text. I absolutely recognize that. … But part of it is that I think it is a way of being utterly opposed to slavery, that is nonetheless opposing slavery with a gospel message and a call to what’s sometimes called evangelical repentance.

I don’t know if you’ve heard that phrase before, that the reason we repent is not just because of the law — though it’s not opposed to that — but it’s because of such a profound realization of the grace or the gospel that we’ve received. So, that’s part of the message that I see here. Yes. Part of the reason it’s scandalous to us is because we live in a culture that now where slavery is no longer accepted at all, which is a wonderful good thing, which I think again, we could talk about is partially produced by the gospel. Indeed, Nietzsche in his criticism of religion called Christianity a slave’s religion. He saw that it was a religion, when it says there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free; it was a religion that was from the beginning deeply for the downtrodden and the oppressed. And that is part of what has transformed our society.

But again, the other reason I think we struggle with it is because when people actually do real sins, they don’t just talk about sin in vague general terms. We oftentimes rush to want to see them destroyed and pushed down, not redeemed from within by the gospel.

[00:16:24] Anthony: Yeah, it’s powerful what you said. And I’m just thinking back to the very beginning when you said, when you proclaim the gospel, it’s often with people that are diverse in the group — there’s diversity there, but there’s also those that don’t necessarily believe in the authority of scripture.

Jared: Absolutely.

Anthony: And so, a text like this is very appealing because it really does get to the heart of the human condition. Not just slavery, but like you said, sin — whatever sin looks like in a person’s life. And it’s powerful to see Paul’s approach with the brother here.

And to me, it is it just shows how forgiveness, reconciliation — it’s all a part of the healing process. Which really brings me to the next question, because I’ve heard some people say that this appeal that Paul makes, it puts forgiveness and justice at odds. But is that really the case? What’s going on here?

[00:17:23] Jared: Yeah. I think that’s another huge issue, isn’t it? I think we know forgiveness and justice aren’t at odds, and part of the reason is because, again, if we just ask, do we think that what would be the best thing for a slaveholder is that they would be forgiven and they would be allowed to continue in their slaveholding?

I think the answer is obviously no, primarily, and firstly, because God cares for the good of the slave, but secondarily because God cares for the good of the slaveholder. There’s a quote from Herbert McCabe, who is a Cambridge Dominican theologian, and he said, “Look, sin always hurts the other. Sin always has harmful effects on the other, but what makes sin sin, what defines sin as sin, is actually what it does to the perpetrator. And what he means by this is, he’s not saying it’s more important, like the sometimes the bigger deal, so to speak, is what sin does to the other person.

But you can accidentally hurt another person. If you accidentally performed some action and then you intentionally perform the same action and it had the same result on the other person. One of those would just be a terrible accident. But the other that was intentional and deliberate would be sin.

So, if the effect on the other is the same what makes a difference? What makes one just a terrible accident? And the other a sin? And the difference is that sin mars, the soul; it destroys the sinner. And so, when you look at this all throughout the Christian tradition and then some — it has this long discussion on how in order for God to be merciful to the sinner he has to be just, because the best thing for us is to be freed from our sin which makes us less than fully human.

The tragedy for the slaveholder is yes, first and foremost what they’ve done to the other, but it’s also how they are marring and defacing their own humanity. This is a beautiful person made in the image of God who has somehow become so distorted that they can hold another in bondage. So, the way that God’s mercy works itself out in our life is actually through justice, through God moving us towards a more humane way of living, which is ultimately for the good of the world and for the good of the other, absolutely.

But it’s also equally for our own good and were God to give a kind of mercy that wasn’t transformative, a “cheap grace,” as Bonhoeffer said, that didn’t make us different, that would be a profound lack of kindness and mercy to us because it would be leaving us trapped in a dehumanizing way of living.

[00:20:07] Anthony: Now you’re meddling because … and I absolutely agree that God loves the perpetrator just as much as the victim, and he loves the perpetrator so much that he is just. And confronts him. And but boy, we just want … smite the perpetrator, Almighty Smiter! That’s our desire.

But that person is an image bearer of God. The Imago Dei is there and sometimes we forget how that’s harming that image within them, that God is still for them, but he is so for them that he is going to confront the sin. And thanks be to God. That is kindness. It is kindness to show compassion in such a way that faces up against that which would harm another. That’s what good news is to the other. “Stop it!” And that’s what Paul is telling Philemon here.

[00:21:02] Jared: Absolutely. Absolutely. We can sometimes have this kind of schizophrenic vision of God. I certainly did — I could tell a long story about that — where we think that God has two sides. The one side is loving and good, and the bad side is justice and wrath. And that orthodoxy means balancing those two sides.

And I think that is, yeah, I think that’s a kind of — I don’t want to overstate it here — but I do think that’s in danger of being a kind of pagan view of God.

[00:21:29] Anthony: Yeah.

[00:21:30] Jared: That God’s, as the Puritans talked about, God’s justice or his wrath is just the strange side of his love. It’s not something different. It’s not something in competition. It’s his utter and decided will for the flourishing of all he has made. And his settled opposition to what is defacing and dehumanizing and destructive. It’s a way his goodness expresses itself for our good.

[00:21:55] Anthony: Well said, my friend.

Let’s transition to the next pericope of the month. It is 1 Timothy 1:12-17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 19 in Ordinary Time, which is September 14. Jared, would you read it for us, please?

[00:22:15] Jared: Yeah.

I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because he considered me faithful and appointed me to his service, 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a man of violence. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the foremost. 16 But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display the utmost patience as an example to those who would come to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

[00:23:08] Anthony: So, you’re a researcher that focuses on the doctrine of God. So, tell us about this God revealed in Jesus Christ through this text.

[00:23:17] Jared: Yeah, it tells us a great deal about this God, doesn’t it? One of the things that really jumps out to me, and I think this does get to the character of God, maybe it’s getting there in a roundabout way, is that Paul seems to say something that is very implausible. Is it the case, that Paul is actually the worst of all sinners?

The fact that God enjoins us sometimes to enact what we might call moral fictions to counteract the ways we can go wrong by living as if something were the case. So, think of Philippians, I think it is, when he says, consider others more significant than yourself.

Does that mean that literally you are less valuable and other people are more valuable? I don’t think so. The way I sometimes describe it when I’m doing a wedding with people is saying, one of the things I had to learn for myself is that I have a remarkable capacity to keep meticulous detail of all of the chores I have done around the house, and to just so happen to not see all the ways, all the things that my wife has done. And I’m not doing that deliberately. It’s my kind of blindness. And so actually, if I just try to keep things 50/50, they won’t be 50/50 at all. I need to try to treat her as more significant than myself.

And I think that’s part of what Paul is saying here. This isn’t a kind of worm theology where Paul is saying, “I’m so bad” and he’s whipping himself. Instead, to your point, he is I think overwhelmed by the grace of God, the mercy that he has received. And that is him choosing to live a life that is continually aware of that. And that’s his motivating sensor.

One of the words that really jumps out to me is in verse 16 where it says, Jesus has showed patience with me. And this actually becomes a really important word in the Christian tradition. And funnily enough, it’s one of the words that helps create our modern idea of tolerance.

We sometimes think that tolerance just means being a relativist or being indifferent, but it doesn’t mean that at all. Tolerance means bearing with something that you find objectionable for the sake of maintaining communion or relationship or community with the others. And with the other. And this is what God does with us — that despite our brokenness, despite our sinfulness, God is continually bearing with that so that he can maintain union with us and communion with us and drawing us into deeper union with him.

So, to me that’s a part of the kind of beautiful vision of God’s character that Paul is talking about here. He’s not emphasizing his sin to beat himself down, but he’s overwhelmed by the fact that though he can look back and see all of his many missteps, that God has been walking with him through that all the time. He’s that kind of good shepherd, walking with us through the valley of death and being patient with us in countless ways we don’t know. So yeah, to me that patience is a wonderful kind of exemplification of God’s character and love.

[00:26:38] Anthony: Yeah, my eyes are drawn to verse 14, “the grace of our Lord overflowed.” Andrew Purvis talks about this super overflowing abundance in God. It overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Overflowing good. Yes … including the patience that you mentioned.

It seems odd to me that people would interpret the text this way, but I have seen some react to this interpretation that God is conditional, that Paul was strengthened by the Lord because he was considered faithful. Verse 12, he received mercy because he acted out of ignorance, not willfully. In verse 13. So, Jared, is God’s kindness based on conditions?

[00:27:27] Jared: No, but I think it goes back to a bit of what we spoke about before. There are conditions and there are conditions. Let me put it this way …

[00:27:40] Anthony: Tell me more.

[00:27:42] Jared: This is an analogy I’ve used before, where we can go back to this kind of idea of slaveholding. I’m not an expert on these things, but apparently this kind of situation actually did happen in the American South. You had the legal declaration that slavery as an institution was ended. And so, you had men and women that were held slaves, that lived in terrible conditions, that were forced to do backbreaking labor, that had very little agency and very little prospects in life.

Slavery was abolished, and then they went to live in the exact same houses. They worked in the exact same fields. They had the exact same limited prospects in life doing the exact same back-breaking labor, but they received a very small amount of money at the end of the week, which they had to use to pay for those very terrible houses they used to live in. Would we say that person is free?

Formally, perhaps their official condition is free, but if nothing has materially changed about the facts of their life, they’re not actually living as free people. They’re functionally still in bondage. And so, part of what the gospel … and I think sometimes we view the gospel that way when we say, is there no conditions? What is there isn’t is any standard you need to meet in order to be forgiven. Part of the kind of amazing discovery of the reformation is that Jesus has he has paid the penalty for sin. And that being united with him allows you to have in a sense all of the conditions met, but it necessarily will lead you into a new life.

And you are not actually being freed. You are not actually being saved. You are not actually living in Christ unless you are living a renewed, transformed, different life. Not so that you can earn God’s favor, but so that you can actually experience salvation. You can live as a free person and this too is not somehow something you earn off on your own.

It’s living into your union with Christ. It is grace upon grace. It is, as Paul said, working out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in you.

[00:30:06] Anthony: Yeah, that brings some great insight in terms of just the way that we experience salvation. And thanks be to God that salvation is not a one and done act. But it’s the ongoing perpetual reality of God that he is saving us, that he is delivering us from bondage each and every day. Hallelujah. Praise God for that. And so that makes sense. It almost puts a subjective reading on scripture like, yes, this is objectively true what God has done — forgiving me, but it’s there is this act of living into the salvation that he has so graciously given to us. I think that’s what you’re saying, right?

[00:31:00] Jared: That’s exactly what I’m saying. I think you’ve put it as, as often happens with me, I think you’ve put it far better than I have, so thanks for doing that. But exactly the New Testament speaks of salvation as something that is being completed and as something that is completed. It is both of those. And sometimes we can have this very unhelpful view that being saved is just simply a question of, am I going to heaven or not? And that is not at all how the New Testament uses this very multifaceted language of being saved. You are always in danger when you try to summarize the richness of the gospel.

But for me, the gospel is about the renewal, the restoration of our entire person. Indeed, it is about forgiveness. It is about eternal life, but it is just as much about living this abundant life in Christ now, being restored and renewed into his image, and then making this entire cosmos new.

[00:31:41] Anthony: That reminds me of a quote from Eugene Peterson where he said, resurrection is not exclusively what happens after we’re buried. It has to do with the way we live right now. The kingdom is near; the kingdom is here. Let’s be about the Father’s business.

[00:31:55] Jared: Absolutely. That is the meaning of that word.

[00:32:01] Anthony: Our next text for the month is 1 Timothy 2:1-7. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 20 in Ordinary Time, which is September 21.

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time. 7 For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth; I am not lying), a teacher of the gentiles in faith and truth.

This is a brief but powerfully rich theological text. God desires everyone to be saved, verse 4. Jared, what does this declaration tell us about God, the church, and anthropology, human worth?

[00:33:19] Jared: Yeah. I really like that last bit of the question. What does it tell us about anthropology and human worth? Because I think it tells us quite a lot. Verse 5 has this proclamation of monotheism: “for there is one God, and there is only one mediator between God and humankind, Jesus Christ.” This is actually profoundly significant for developing ideas of human dignity, human rights.

When you look at the ancient world, Christian monotheism was not just about how many gods there are. In fact, it wasn’t really about how many Gods there are or not, because at times Paul seems to say there’s lots of false gods. There might actually be some malevolent powers that are kind of God-like in a bad way.

It was more about the character of the one God and the one God that is revealed in Jesus Christ. Paganism had this way of relating to God, and you see the prophets particularly in what’s called the post-exilic text, particularly in the bits of the Old Testament that are when Israel is trying to reckon with the exile, they are constantly critiquing the pagan deities.

And the critique is less about how many gods there are. The critique is that your gods are needy —paganism in this way. And they had a vision of God that was based on exchange. If you want your crops to grow, if you want your nation to be protected, if you want to have a large nation, then the key is treating the god rightly. If you give the god the proper sacrifice, then he will make your crops grow. If you sacrifice just a little bit of something that is valuable to you, then he will give you something even more valuable. If you sacrifice a few of your crops, he’ll make your crops grow. If you sacrifice an animal, he’ll protect your nation. And on and on it goes.

And the kind of terrible dialectic of idolatry is that out of desire, out of seeking something that you think will make you happy, whether it is flourishing or protection or a large family, you end up giving more and more to the god. The gods are needy, they’re demanding, and eventually you end up giving the thing that is most precious to you for the sake of your own happiness, because of course, the horrible conclusion of idolatry. This idolatrous dynamic that the prophets critique is child sacrifice. You give literally the most precious thing in the world to you for the sake of your own desire.

And the prophets constantly have this exalted, transformed, monotheistic vision of God, which just cuts off that logic of exchange right from the beginning. In the Psalms, God will say, “I have the cattle on a thousand hills. If I needed anything, I wouldn’t have asked you. In other words, there’s no exchange needed here. My goodness doesn’t need to be bought. It doesn’t need to be bargained with. And the reason is actually because I am so full of life, I’m the Creator of all things. I’m not one small pagan tribal deity that you can bargain with that’s just for your nation and not others. I’m the God who made all things, and therefore I’m so endlessly rich that the needs of bargaining couldn’t even enter into the equation to begin with.”

But the other implication of this is that when you have a pagan god, when you say, we’re the Babylonians and we have Marduk and he’s our god, and we’re some Canaanite tribe and we have Baal and he is our god, your gods are for you and not for anyone else. They work for you if you pay them off, and they’re opposed to the other. And so, when you look at the ancient world, they don’t have our modern idea that all humans have shared dignity and value just because they are human.

When you read Aristotle, he has a very different view. He says, some people were born to be slaves and other people were born to rule. He said, some people were born Greeks or Romans, and some people were born barbarians. And they’re almost as if these are different sorts of species, as if to be a Roman and to have our gods makes us of a fundamentally different kind than these other sorts of beings.

And so, part of the revolution of monotheism and particularly Christian monotheism is saying, if there’s one God overall, then he operates with us out of his goodness, not by bargaining, but two, he is the God for all people, not just for us. As I said before, there’s no slave nor free. There’s no Greek nor barbarian.

And that’s why Paul on Act 17, when he comes to speak to the Greek thinkers, he says, this God is not far from any one of us. In him, you live and move and have our being. He’s the Father of all and he’s basically been reaching out to all of humanity from the beginning.

So, this vision of one God is actually profoundly significant. It is, I would argue — and there’s a lot of intellectual histories that have made this point — it is the roots of our modern idea that every single human person, no matter where they’re from, no matter what race they are, no matter even what religion they are, every one of them is worthy of dignity and value. And this is actually rooted in the idea that there was one Creator and Lover and good God over all. So yeah, that last question, I think this is absolutely essential to recovering a vision of the human worth and dignity of every person.

[00:39:00] Anthony: And for me, this is why it’s so important to point to this one God as triune Father, Son, and Spirit. Because if you have a unitarian God in isolation, he would have created out of need. And so, everything does become about neediness.

But within the triune nature of God, there was joy, overflowing harmony. There was no need. But out of the overflow of love, creation came to be. And therefore, all created beings, all of our human beings made in his image and likeness, not out of need, but because of desire of relationship, of wholeness. And as you said earlier, for the flourishing of all mankind. It’s so important to see the triuneness of God, the Trinity.

[00:39:45] Jared: I think that is absolutely right. And sometimes I say things like this and people will think that this is some sort of revisionary version of God. This is not true at all. You can find arguments like this all throughout the medieval, the idea that if goodness, if generosity is a divine perfection, if it’s part of what made God perfect, then if God was just a monad, then who could God have been generous to without creating?

So, what that would mean then is in order to be generous — and remember we said generous was, generosity is part of what makes God perfect — so, in other words, in order to be perfect, in order to be God, he would’ve needed to create, and in that case, God wasn’t creating the world in order to give. He was paradoxically creating the world for himself so he can become perfect, so he can become generous, so he can become the generous God that characterizes perfection. Instead, as you said, if God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if he is perfectly giving within his one essence from all eternity, then this world is, and I love this word, even though it’s a big word, is gratuitous. God didn’t need it for the sake of God.

[00:40:54] Anthony: Yes.

[00:40:55] Jared: God literally loved it into being out of that fullness and joy within God’s perfect triune perfection. He spilled out into the world. And again, sorry, I know I’m rambling here, but this does transform the way we think about quote unquote conditions, to go back to our earlier view. Because we oftentimes have actually that kind of an implicit pagan view of God that I was talking about before. We think God has saved us or God has promised us salvation. God has done all of these good things for us. And, therefore, he just asks a bit from us in return.

He wants us to do some good things, either to pay him back for what he has done or because this is owed in some way because of all of the good things he promises to give to us. But if God is this infinite triune God, that can’t be the case because God doesn’t need anything we have to give. So, anything he asks us to do can ultimately in some deep sense only be for us, not for him. It can only be to give grace upon grace, gift upon gift, to lead us into more humanity and more flourishing and more wholeness, not to take something from us that he was lacking.

[00:42:02] Anthony: Yeah, that’s so insightful because, and not to get into another subject, but that really does inform missiology. Like when we participate in mission with God, it’s out of the overflow. It’s the spilling out of his love, not just another box to check, but this is who God is and this is what he does by his Spirit. And, oh, there’s just so much to get into there.

Let’s continue on with this thought. When we look at verses 5 and 6, we see that there’s one mediator between God and humanity, and you’re in St. Andrews. So, I think of TF Torrance in his work, the Mediation of Christ. What are the implications of Christ Jesus, the man being the mediator between God and humanity? Is that just high theology or is there something very practical about this?

[00:42:50] Jared: Yeah, I think there’s a huge amount that is practical here and there’s so many ways you could get into it.

It is high theology. One of my favorite modern theologians is George Hunsinger, and he talks about how the view of the atonement that you have, the view of what you think Jesus needs to do to redeem us is almost inseparably and inevitably connected with who you think Jesus is. So, in theological terms, the atonement and Christology, what you think Jesus does and who you think he is are inseparable. And the bigger job you think Jesus has to do to restore us and to redeem us, the more exalted you need to think about him.

And I think that’s exactly what we’re getting here, that Jesus is the one mediator because he alone, as verse 6 says, gives himself as the ransom. And I think that’s a really powerful word. Look, I’m not a biblical scholar. They could get into all the details, but at a basic level it just means a means of release.

And that to me gets to the heart of salvation. The reason that we — salvation is a big job and it needs God himself, the one mediator Jesus Christ — is because the most difficult parts of sin are things that we feel powerless before. Again, we can be very judgmental and legalistic and think that if people just wanted to stop sinning, then they could.

And I don’t think that’s a very helpful way of thinking. I think we need to be released from something that stands over against us. I don’t know about you, but when I think of my most kind of intractable character flaws, for me to be completely honest, one of them is just people pleasing. I care so much about what people are thinking about me, I think they’re thinking about me much more than they are. And I usually think that they’re thinking much worse thoughts about me than they actually are. And I can just be consumed in thinking about what people think. And can I tell you if I could stop that, I would. I have wanted to be released from that kind of obsession with being worried about what people are thinking about so many times.

I think that might sound like a mundane, safe thing to share, but I think most of our biggest struggles in life are things that we feel helpless before. I think of my friends that have gone through AA and one of the foundational tenets is that you need a higher power because you cannot solve this yourself.

And that’s what that idea of ransom is about, that we need someone to release us from a power that threatens to hold us captive, and that to some degree makes us helpless, or at least makes us feel helpless. But if I could say one other thing about that idea, then, of the one mediator — what this does mean then is that in, in some profound fundamental sense, our relationship with God is direct. It is in a sense individualistic. It is straight through. There’s no one that needs to stand in the way, that God himself, in the person of Jesus has done what is required to release us from sin. And therefore, by relating to him we have union with God.

And yet what that one mediator doesn’t do is it doesn’t eliminate the fact that God still uses means. Paul talks about how Jesus is the one reconciler, and yet he’s given to us the ministry of reconciliation, that other people can be the means, the vehicle, the space at which we encounter the one mediator that is Jesus Christ. And if we had time, I could tell loads of stories about that. But that is what you talked before about mission.

Mission is not us going off on our own and through our own ingenuity or smarts or argumentative rigor or whatever it may be, winning people to Christ. It’s maybe being in the right place at the right time, where the one mediator, Jesus uses us as an instrument to show people Jesus. And oftentimes that’s not through our strength, it’s through our weakness. Oftentimes it’s not through our capacity. It’s through our own need for Christ ourself, which allows us to be that vehicle through which other people meet the one mediator that is Jesus.

[00:47:15] Anthony: So much could be said there, and I’m grateful for what you did say, because it’s a lot — that we have direct relationship with the Father. Jesus is not so much a middleman as it were.

Sometimes I think people can get that idea that he’s protecting us from the Father. That’s not what’s at play here at all, because guess what? The Father’s like Jesus and has always been like Jesus. We didn’t always know it, but now we do because he is the one mediator. Hallelujah. Praise the Lord.

Our final pericope of the month is 1 Timothy 6:6-19. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 21 in Ordinary Time, which is September 28. Jared, I would be grateful if you read it.

[00:48:02] Jared: Of course.

Of course, there is great gain in godliness combined with contentment, 7 for we brought nothing into the world, so that we can take nothing out of it, 8 but if we have food and clothing, we will be content with these. 9 But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.11 But as for you, man of God, shun all this; pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and for which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep the commandment without spot or blame until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. 16 It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 17 As for those who in the present age are rich, command them not to be haughty or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches but rather on God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, generous, and ready to share, 19 thus storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life that really is life.

[00:49:48] Anthony: I’m going to age myself. I went to university back in the nineties and there was a song that had a line, “more money, more money, more problems,” and it became really famous. And yet, here in the West we pursue money, Jared, as with fervor and gusto above everything. We, in the United States, we talk about the almighty dollar. So, what commentary would you give to the church in light of this and what the text declares?

[00:50:17] Jared: Yeah, I think we should definitely allow these. Part of what I think is so helpful about being in a church that reads the scripture, part of the helpfulness of the ritual of going through scripture, however you do that, is to be forced as a rich, wealthy person to hear words like this read over you. And by rich and wealthy, I certainly don’t feel rich and wealthy. But I mean that in the kind of global sense and in terms of wealth across time.

But again, even here there is a challenge. But I suppose this has been a theme throughout our conversation. I think there’s a way that this challenge comes to us, which is not for our condemnation, but ultimately for our liberation and for our good. I’m really struck by how later on it warns about the uncertainty of riches. And encourages you to towards another sort of riches. There’s a play on words there, right?

[00:51:17] Anthony: Yes.

[00:51:17] Jared: Don’t set your hope in the uncertainty of riches, but rather on God who richly provides for us with everything for our enjoyment. This is a point where to go back to where we started this conversation, I think the message, what might seem to be the challenging message of scripture, actually really resonates with our culture.

How many of our great works of art, or even silly films, are about the uncertainty of riches, about people who think that once I have everything, once I’ve attained success in my career, once I’ve attained a certain status of wealth, then I will be happy. And they find that it utterly fails them.

When, ironically, when I was on my vacation this summer, I was reading a new novel called Perfection. And it was about these digital nomad people that move into a major city and they’re working online and they were seeking the good life. And they and their friends had tried every different way. They tried clubbing for a while, then they tried great food, then they tried great holidays. They were trying all of these different things. And in the end, the story ends with them in this kind of wonderful house seemingly living the simple life they’d been seeking the whole time and yet utterly bereft of meaning and of significance and of the sort of life they’ve really been seeking.

And I think this is the message of this passage —not wealth is really great but you need to obey God and so, you shouldn’t live for it, not this lifestyle would be really wonderful but you’re not allowed to have it. Instead, it’s what it’s pointing us towards — a better, a more lasting, a more satisfying form of riches.

I love Jesus’s parable of the pearl of great price or the treasure hidden in a field where he says, someone goes and finds in a field this buried treasure. And what it doesn’t say is that this treasure was so important that God made him give up everything else. It says, when he found this treasure, it was so surpassingly attractive, so desirable, so worthwhile that out of joy, he went and sold everything else he had so that he could get this treasure. In other words, he’s pointing us towards a deeper, more satisfying form of riches, not wagging its finger at us, and saying, you are trying too hard to be satisfied.

[00:53:37] Anthony: Oh, that’s so well said. I love how you tie that together with where the true riches are and it’s in Christ where everything that is good and beautiful is found. And the New Testament tells us that greed is idolatrous. Yeah. It’s idolatry.

And yet so often we hold it up as a virtue. And it’s not that God is withholding for us, he just has the better thing to give to us if we would just receive it. And I think this is what the text is pointing to.

[00:54:08] Jared: Absolutely.

[00:54:09] Anthony: Yeah. So, what does it look like? This is a big question, and you can go a million different directions, but what does it look like to fight the good fight of faith and to take hold of eternal life? And maybe you can provide some commentary of how we’re doing it well and where you see us falling short as Christians.

[00:54:28] Jared: Yeah. I think, maybe to be slightly provocative, verse 7 says we brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it. There is a quite brazen appeal here to heavenly mindedness. And in the late 20th century, early 21st century theology and biblical studies, heavenly mindedness got a really bad rap. There was this idea that the problem with Christians is that we’re too focused on eternity.

[00:55:00] Anthony: Yes.

[00:55:00] Jared: And we’re not focused enough on this world, or the material things or physical things or whatever it may be. And I’m not very sympathetic to that way of thinking.

And part of the reason, I almost think the opposite. I think we live in an age that is consumed by the immediate, that is consumed by … sometimes when people would say to me every sermon needs to be practical, I would say I agree with you.

But sometimes what I think we mean by practical is this needs to be something I can put into practice on my way home from church today. And I think the most practical things in life don’t work like that. They’re not just little life hacks that you put into practice to change your life. They’re about who you are as a person. They’re about restoring you and making you new. They’re actually more about virtue than just about following a rule.

And I think something similar here in our culture right now, as you might know, there is a revival —particularly among young people — of Stoicism, of a philosophy of life which is combating this obsession with immediate gratification, which we all have. And Christianity from the beginning has had a very complicated relationship with Stoicism.

When you read these first few verses here about contentment, it’s saying, look, there is something right about that. There’s something right about delaying gratification, about living for something more than immediate gratification, living for a standard or a virtue that goes beyond it. Okay, so there’s a grain of truth to that.

And yet Augustine famously mocked the Stoics as well because he said do you really think that someone — because Stoicism says basically, if you have the right attitude on life, then it doesn’t matter what good things you lose, you should still be able to be happy, and Augustine said that was ridiculous — do you really think that if you’ve lost a loved one or lost a friend that you shouldn’t be troubled, that you shouldn’t be profoundly devastated in the face of that loss? And he looked at the person of Jesus as his is motivation here: Jesus, the one person that of all people was most living not for the immediate but for eternity, whose entire life, as Hebrews said, was for the joy that was set before him.

In other words, the reason he could go through a life of being rejected and of what seemed like failure and ultimately of death was not because he had given up on joy, but because he was living for an eternal joy where humanity was reunited to God along with him. And yet, even though he had that vision, that ultimately all things will be made new, his joy would be made sight, when he looked at his friend Lazarus who died, even though he was going raise him again, he wept.

[00:57:46] Anthony: Yes.

[00:57:46] Jared: He fully faced the loss and the tragedy and the sorrow of life. And that’s what that Stoic vision misses — the fact that life can be broken and imperfect and tragic. And yes, we have hope, but is a hope that is oftentimes through tears facing the reality of a broken world.

And in terms of your final question then, what does it mean to do that well? What does it mean to, on the one hand, yes, not think that I need to be immediately satisfied, to recognize that sometimes I will have desires that don’t go fulfilled, that sometimes life isn’t what it should be, and therefore it can be tragic and I can lament and I can weep, and yet also to do that with hope, trusting that there is a future joy, that this is not the end, and therefore I’m able to face those tragedies without being totally crushed, but still having in some broken way through tears and through suffering and maybe through therapy, hoping in something more. What does that look like? I think part of what it looks like, and this might be a strange thing to say, is accepting that things aren’t going to be perfect in this world.

[00:58:55] Anthony: Yeah.

[00:58:56] Jared: Accepting that what it means to be faithful is accepting when other people aren’t perfect, when your family lets you down, when the church isn’t what it should be, when the government isn’t what it should be, and saying, do you know what? This doesn’t make me give up. This doesn’t make me stop trying. This doesn’t make me stop fighting for justice and truth. This doesn’t make me hopeless. It makes me think that I can keep going. I can keep trying to fight for justice. I can keep pressing in relationships. I can keep doing all of that because I’m not expecting it to be perfect. I’m living for the joy that was set before me, which is already secured in the person of Jesus.

[00:59:34] Anthony: Yeah. That’s so important what you’re saying there. And I think this gets at why Paul can write a letter like that he did to the church in Philippi while he is sitting in prison. It’s sometimes called the epistle of joy. He’s just gushing with joy in the midst of his dark, dank circumstances because of who Christ is, who has been so rich to provide out of generosity to Paul as it is to us. So, even when, say, we have prayed and prayed that we would be healed of some sort of physical infirmity but it doesn’t happen, we don’t doubt God’s goodness, his faithfulness to us because he’s already proven that once and for all in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And so, I think you’re really getting at something — that this life ain’t perfect. It’s just not.

[01:00:25] Jared: No.

[01:00:25] Anthony: But it’s good. It’s so good because of you guys.

[01:00:30] Jared: I think you’re right, that those moments of loss, of prayers that are not answered — long prayers that are not answered — is where you, that’s where you know whether we’re alive.

This doesn’t mean you don’t grieve, it doesn’t mean you’re not incredibly sad. It doesn’t mean you, again, you might not be depressed or anxious or have mental illness. But one of the things I find really comforting, that I do try to encourage people with, is to say, when you say this person isn’t being healed, has God said no?

If it’s not too trite to say, God never says no. At worst, he says not yet. The miracles of the gospels, as a lot of biblical commentators have pointed out, when Jesus is going through this small land and he is healing people left and right, all of the illness and pain, it’s almost as if it’s wiping away what was.

And we say, why doesn’t Jesus do that now? Why doesn’t he do that for everyone? The answer is, of course, he will. That is a foretaste, a sign, the first fruits of the entire world being restored. Every person that was healed was actually a sign for us, that ultimately all tears will be wiped away. Ultimately, all pain and illness will be eliminated. All things will be restored. And so right now, yes, we lament, but we trust that the answer isn’t no, that the answer at worst is wait. The day is coming when those things will be set right.

[01:02:05] Anthony: That’s such good news. And for our listening audience, you may not realize this, but often when I’m interviewing somebody like Jared, I’m meeting them for the first time. During the recording, we’ve, Jared and I, have exchanged emails back and forth to prepare for this, but this is the first time I’ve actually talked to him, as is the case for several of the guests that we’ve had, and I’m so grateful that Andrew Torrance connected us. I really do appreciate you, brother.

You’re a researcher, but I hear the pastor-preacher in you, and it’s so exciting to hear you exclaim and explain and herald the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, thank you for joining us. And I really do appreciate the team of people that make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman — just a great team to work with that puts all this together.

But I wanted to remind our audience of something. Our friends, the one who’s gone before us, the great Swiss theologian, Karl Barth, said, “Christ accomplishes the reality of our reconciliation with God, not its possibility. It’s done.”

And so, as Jared said during the podcast, let’s go be ministers of the gospel. It is such good news and it shouldn’t stay with us. Let’s share it with all that we encounter. May it be so.

Jared, thank you for being with us and as is our tradition here on the podcast, we end with a word prayer. We’d be delighted if you said a word of prayer over us.

[01:03:27] Jared: Yeah. Thanks so much and thanks for your kind words.

Heavenly Father, we just do. We are aware that when we’re talking about these things, it can be very easy to talk about these issues in a podcast, whether it’s issues of racial injustice, issues of loss, of illness. And … speaking in a theoretical, abstract way is totally inadequate before the reality of what people are facing. But we do trust that in Christ you walk with us and enter with us into those injustices and into those tragedies, and you promise that injustice, evil, suffering, pain, none of this has the last word. And so, while we, and certainly my words are inadequate to evaluate those things, we trust that you are not. And in the name of Jesus Christ, your Son, we pray. Amen.

[01:04:12] Anthony: Amen.

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Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 13

Anthony: Our first passage of the month is Colossians 3:1–11. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 13 in Ordinary Time, August 3.

So if you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth, 3 for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever in you is earthly: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient. 7 These are the ways you also once followed, when you were living that life. 8 But now you must get rid of all such things: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices 10 and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator. 11 In that renewal there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, enslaved and free, but Christ is all and in all!

When we see a statement like Christ is seated at the right hand of God, we can too often think spatially, Ted. But there’s more to it, right? Tell us about it.

Ted: Yeah. Well, this passage, like the whole book of Colossians, is about the supremacy of Christ. And to speak of him as being seated is speaking directly to that and using thought forms that the audience that received this to begin with would be very familiar with.

I’m reminded that not too long, and not too many days ago, we celebrated Ascension Day, which is part of the liturgical calendar that sadly is often overlooked. But here in Colossians 3, Paul is clearly alluding to that as he refers to Christ seated at the right hand of God, which is indicating a key aspect of the reality of Christ, who Christ is, the eternal son of God, fully God, who via the incarnation, became and remains fully human, God in the flesh who lived, died, suffered, suffered and died and was buried, and on the third day, resurrected and 40 days later, ascended to the throne of God, where, in Paul’s thought form, he remains seated, which is to say exalted.

It is not seated, as in oh, let’s take a vacation. It’s talking about his exaltation, the granting to Jesus of all authority, which flies directly in the face of the one who claimed all authority, who was Caesar, that throughout the book of Colossians and elsewhere in his letters Paul pokes at, but Jesus has all this great authority as we’ll see in the book of Hebrews as we proceed.

He has that authority as our high priest who is compassionate and yet powerful and united to Christ via his humanity. Our humanity is ascended with him and therefore seated with him. We share in his power and authority. That is a stunning reality with respect to both Christ and humanity, a reality that was fundamental to Paul’s trinitarian, Christ-centered theology and his anthropology.

So there, there’s an awful lot right there in this passage that we could go on about, but that’s a little bit of a capsule of what he is talking about when he talks about Christ being seated.

Anthony: You mentioned, we are seated with him. Our humanity is, and in that way, we’re active participants of what’s happening to Christ, and Paul goes on to write in this passage that our lives are hidden in Christ.

Then he goes on to say that Christ is our life. Those are brief statements, but Ted, it seems to me there’s quite a lot theologically happening in those declarations.

Ted: That’s for sure.

Anthony: Help us understand.

Ted: Well, I’ll ask a question. Does my life perfectly reflect the reality that I’m seeing with Christ in heaven?

If I’m honest, I’ve got to say no. I’m not proud of that, but it’s the reality. Do people say about me, “Yeah. I see Ted seated with Jesus on the throne of God.” Yeah, probably not. But Paul, being a realist, knows that this is true of us and yet we don’t see it completely. And he would include himself in that and makes mention of that at times in his letters. He does not see himself as being perfected, but he does see himself seated with Christ in the heavenlies, where we share in his perfection.

And so, Paul is encouraging us to realize that truth, as remarkable as it is, as hard to grasp as it is. And he encapsulates that by saying that we are hidden in Christ. We don’t see ourselves, others don’t see us in his fullness, and yet we are in Christ. And by faith, we’re able to grasp that glorious reality of who we truly are in him. And what Paul is telling these Christians in Colossae and us by extension, is that we need to be grounded in that truth and let it define us and lean into that truth and allow it to change our minds and thus also our behavior.

And that is the essence of Paul’s trinitarian ethics, that we always acknowledge first who we are. That’s the indicatives. The declaration of the Gospel: it says, this is true, as crazy, as wild, as stunning as that seems. This is true. Focusing on that reality of who Jesus is and who we are in him, and let that reality guide and empower us to attend to the imperatives, the commands he gives here to live like Jesus according to the Spirit, to live the way of the new self, the new creation of who we are, truly are, and are becoming in Christ. And Paul uses that same logic throughout his letters as he’s dealing with problems that he’s seeing in these congregations that he is writing to and how relevant that is in our day too.

Anthony: One of the imperatives that you mentioned, if you don’t mind me asking a follow up question?

Ted: Sure.

Anthony: He said we must get rid of wrath. And yet in verse six we see that the wrath of God is coming. So, is God practicing something he’s not preaching? How … you know, somebody maybe that’s new to scripture and they see, I’m supposed to as a Christian to get rid of wrath in my life, but God has wrath. How do you reconcile those two things, Ted?

Ted: I think we have to be careful to not say: I don’t like that term, the wrath of God; so, Paul can’t possibly mean that.

Anthony: Yeah.

Ted: Paul’s giving a pretty definitive warning, but a warning is different than a proclamation of what is actually going to happen.

So there’s that. So, he’s not trying to guilt people into good behavior. He is not trying to scare the hell out of them, so to speak, but he is saying, look, this is a serious matter. But you can’t, you can’t deal with the issue of behavior through coercion, through shaming, through guilt. And so, he’s not intending to do that.

And I think one then has to have a broader view of what the wrath of God is. And he doesn’t address that here, but he does elsewhere that God’s wrath is fundamentally expression of the actual nature of God, which is love and all that he does toward us and for us is motivated by his love, is directed by his love, and that includes the times he needs to correct us.

And ultimately, God is going to remove from us those things that are contrary to the true reality of who we are in Christ. And so, if you want to term that an expression of his wrath, that’s okay, but you have to understand the context and you have to understand what God’s motivation is and the tactics, so to speak, that he uses.

And so, there’s a warning here. It’s like folks we’re talking about stuff that is really serious, and there were a lot of things going on in the church in Colossae that needed to be corrected. But ultimately his emphasis is on the indicatives, not the imperatives. The imperatives always follow behind the indicatives, and that’s really important to know.

Anthony: Amen. Amen and amen. And as I heard someone recently say, we can only grow as much as our willingness to be corrected in life and …

Ted: How true.

Anthony: It is a practical truth.

Ted: Yeah, that’s for sure.

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Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 17

Anthony: Our final passage of the month is Hebrews 13:1–8, 15–16. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 17 in Ordinary Time, August 31.

Let mutual affection continue. 2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels without knowing it. 3 Remember those who are in prison, as though you were in prison with them, those who are being tortured, as though you yourselves were being tortured. 4 Let marriage be held in honor by all, and let the marriage bed be kept undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have, for he himself has said, “I will never leave you or forsake you.” 6 So we can say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can anyone do to me?” 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

“Keep your lives free from the love of money,” verse 5 says, “and be content with what you have.” What might you say about this? A prophetic word, a social commentary. What does the church need to hear about this, Ted?

Ted: Don’t get me going.

Anthony: Well, I’m inviting you to, actually.

Ted: I don’t mean to get on my high horse because this speaks to my heart and is convicting, but I must say that the author of Hebrews …

Anthony: Yes.

Ted: … is certainly focusing in now on ethical matters. He is getting at the reality of his readers’ everyday life, and what they are thinking, what really motivates them, and therefore what they are doing. And he’s urging them to embrace, and through a Christ-like life, show forth the truth and power of the gospel.

You talk about evangelism; you talk about our Christ-like example in the world has a lot to do with how we live. And we don’t do it to impress people. We don’t do it for the favor of people. We do it because that’s the way Christ is, and we’re participating in his life.

And one specific behavior that he zeroes in on is living in contentment — free from a love of money is part of that. Money representing material goods, certainly an issue for these folks because following Jesus was often leading to them losing their way to make money. Their businesses were being closed down because of it. Their Jewish neighbors wouldn’t do business with them.

And that’s an issue for us today. Did they, do we, love money more than Jesus? It’s a challenge in a world that it becomes increasingly materialistic. Maybe we don’t have the same kinds of problems or temptations that they did in that respect, but we certainly face that challenge today.

And we are challenged to ask ourselves, are we generous with what we possess? Do we use our resources in order to offer hospitality to strangers, is the example he gives, which by the way, them being Jews familiar with the Old Testament, with Hebrew scriptures would have thought of those passages in the Hebrew scriptures that talk about the necessity of caring for people who are strangers among us — foreigners, if you will.

That’s certainly an issue in our world today, especially in the United States and other fairly wealthy nations. If you don’t mind, I’d like to read something that I ran across from Walter Brueggeman on that very issue. This is from Away, Other Than Our Own devotional for Lent. He said:

I believe the crisis in the United States Church has almost nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. It has everything to do with giving up on the faith and discipline of our Christian baptism, settling for a common generic US identity that is part patriotism, part consumerism, part violence, and part affluence.

That’s not an easy thing for people who are affluent and living in luxury — you and I, both, we live in luxury compared to most people in the world and certainly most people in history. And it’s easy to be seduced by that. And so, we have to look to Jesus, who though he experienced some physical blessings, I suppose you could say, would never grasp for those things. And he always shared what he had, even if it was very little. And we’re challenged to do the same thing, to show that kind of hospitality, to embrace strangers and to live in contentment, not to always be constantly trying to grasp for more.

And that is a challenge to us, and, I think, one that that makes me stop and think about it and we should stop and think we should be aware of that. The reason for it is in order for us to share more fully in the way of Jesus and to live a Christ-like life that can be seen by others and therefore help them to see Jesus.

And so there we are. He’s ending on a pretty strong note with these folks and it’s a word of correction for sure.

Anthony: It is, because if the church looks exactly like the world and its priorities, how can the church bear witness to Christ? How can it be an agent of change in the world?

You mentioned Walter Brueggeman. We’re recording this episode in June, and yes, Walter died within the past week and he was an Old Testament scholar, theologian, and a gift to the church. And I just want to commend his book on Prophetic Imagination to our listening audience. It’s a powerful word, and it’s a challenging word. And the church throughout its history has had to be challenged from time to time.

And I think what you just said is really an important word for all of us. Ted, we’re on the gun lap coming around to the end here, and I wanted to close with this. The writer of Hebrews says that Jesus will never leave you or forsake you, verse 5. The Lord is my helper, verse 6. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, verse 8. So why don’t we end the episode with a proclamation of that good news of God revealed in Jesus Christ.

Ted: Yeah. Both the passage we read in Colossians, and now this in Hebrews — those were written nearly 2000 years ago, are really relevant today. And the reason for that is because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

What that means is he is steady. He can be counted on. He is faithful, always faithful, and that’s great good news for us because Jesus, who is fully God and fully human, is very much alive and is with us and can be counted on at any time in any circumstance, whether that be true in first century Judea or 21st century North America or any continent on the face of this earth.

Jesus is the pioneer and perfecter of our faith and can be trusted, trusted to never leave us or forsake us. And so, we may place fully our trust in him. By God’s grace, trusting in Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, we may, we must trust and follow him with reverence, perseverance, gratitude, and courage.

Anthony: And there you have it folks. Ted, it’s great to have you back. We’ve worked together in various ministry capacities through the years and we haven’t had a chance to catch up in months. It’s great to chat with you brother about the good news revealed in Jesus and holy scripture.

Tec: Likewise.

Anthony: This has been really sweet to have you on. And as a final word to our listening audience, I want to remind you, God has torn the temple curtain.

Ted: Amen.

Anthony: And nothing you can do can mend it. It is done. It is finished. Grace has conquered. Jesus has conquered all. And so, as the writer of Hebrews pointed us to, and Colossians pointed us to, cast off that old life, there’s something better awaiting us.

The promise of what is to come, new heaven and new earth, and let us move forward in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I want to thank the team of people that helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s a joy to work with them. And again, Ted, it was a joy to have you on the podcast, and as is our traditional end, we’d like for you to close us with a word of prayer.

Ted: Sure. Let’s pray.

Father, as we bring this time and your word to a close. We thank you for the great cloud of witnesses that you have given us. We thank you for your faithfulness to us through your Son and by your Spirit, for the way you have led your people to testify by their lives, and sometimes their deaths, to your goodness and grace.

Father, in this life, we often face great difficulties. Help us when we do to not be discouraged or distracted. Help us not to compromise or give up. And Lord Jesus, our high priest, keep our eyes fixed on you. And Holy Spirit, turn our eyes and our hearts toward Jesus. Give us that grace of perseverance. Strengthen our faith. Grant us a compelling vision of the fullness of our salvation that is coming in a new heaven and a new earth, the home for which we long. And now, Father, may you who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead, our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, equip us, equip those who are hearing this, with everything good for doing your will.

And Father, may you work in us what is pleasing to you through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. In his name we pray. Amen.

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Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 16

Anthony: Let’s transition to the next pericope, it’s Hebrews 12:18–29. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 16 in Ordinary Time, August 24. Ted, we’d be grateful if you read it.

Ted:

You have not come to something that can be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that not another word be spoken to them. 20 (For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned to death.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”) 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 25 See that you do not refuse the one who is speaking, for if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject the one who warns from heaven! 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of what is shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable worship with reverence and awe, 29 for indeed our God is a consuming fire.

Anthony: Since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude. Hallelujah. Ted, Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant. Those are, that was, an eight-word statement, but a lot of work is being done there. It’s good news. Why is it such good news in the here and now?

Ted: Yes. If we had about 12 hours, I would explain it to you in detail,

Anthony: which we don’t, but

Ted: … we don’t. So, suffice it to say that the author of the book of Hebrews, whoever he or she is, is comparing and contrasting the old covenant with a new covenant. And this letter, this sermon really is addressed to Jewish Christians who are extremely familiar with the old covenant.

They’d grown up living by its precepts, but now have embraced Jesus who is himself the new covenant, and he is urging them and urging us by extension to understand the superiority of the new as compared to the old. Some of them, of course, were being tempted to turn away from the new and return back to the order of the old, because that was what was familiar to them. That was what was comfortable, was kind of safe for them.

And I don’t mean to condemn those folks. If I were going through what they were going through, I don’t know what I would do. But he wants them to keep their eyes focused on Jesus, who is the new covenant. To leave the new is to turn one’s back on Jesus, who mediates the new covenant. One might say as I’ve already said, that he himself really is the new covenant, the new relationship between God and humanity found in the person of the incarnate, Son of God, Jesus Christ. And here’s the good news and a source of encouragement to them, and I hope and encouragement and hope to us — Jesus is God and can be trusted.

Anthony: I say it again. We are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken because God cannot be shaken. So, we should show gratitude. It’s expressed in verse 28 and the writer of Hebrews goes on to continue the thought by heralding God as a consuming fire. I’m curious, how do these things go together?

Ted: As I mentioned before the author is drawing from the Old Testament, in other words, the Hebrew scriptures, which these Jewish Christians were very familiar with and using stories and symbols, events that were very familiar to them and the language that’s being used here he is drawing directly from Israel’s experience in the Exodus and which God revealed his presence to Israel in a cloud by day and by fire at night.

And even back to the story of the burning bush. These were signs of the presence of God that left the Israelites awestruck, but now the author is saying, you Jewish Christians, and all Christians today, now that you and the person of Jesus see how the new covenant operates, don’t lose that sense of awe, that sense of reverence that will allow you to turn your back on Jesus. Instead of under appreciating Jesus and what he gives us, be full of gratitude.

For it is, I’m going to say, reverent gratitude that so powerfully shapes our affections and directs our steps. Is worship important? It’s important because God is due worship, but it’s also important to the worshipers, because it instills in us that reverent awe, and that is extremely important, especially in the hard times, times when we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, to quote from that familiar psalm.

And so, to keep in mind of who it is that we are worshiping and to cultivate that reverent awe, that sense of gratitude towards God is extremely important for how we walk this journey with Christ, which sometimes can be very difficult.

Anthony: I think you’ve said something vitally important because there’s a misunderstanding sometimes, especially from critics of Christianity, that God is somehow this needy, self-absorbed God who needs our worship.

Ted: Yeah.

Anthony: He doesn’t.

Ted: No.

Anthony: No, but as you pointed to, he’s worthy of it for certain, for what he has revealed in Jesus Christ, but also it does something to us, just like praying. It changes the person who is praying, not the one being prayed to, he’s the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is good.

Ted: Yes.

Anthony: He doesn’t have to be conditioned to be good. He is good. But it does something to our hearts and I think that’s so important for us to see God.

God is not needy. He is completely full of harmony and love and is satisfied, but he chose to create out of love and hallelujah that we get to participate in that. And just a final word before we transition to our final passage of the month. As Hebrews says, Jesus’ blood speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hallelujah.

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Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 15

Anthony: Let’s go on to our next pericope of the month. It’s Hebrews 11:29–12:2. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 15 in Ordinary Time, August 17.

By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as if it were dry land, but when the Egyptians attempted to do so they were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had received the spies in peace. 32 And what more should I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, in order to obtain a better resurrection. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned to death; they were sawn in two; they were killed by the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, persecuted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.

Tortured, flogging, stoned to death, sawn in two, killed by the sword — what should we learn about, rejoice in, and soberly consider about our brothers and sisters of old?

Ted: Yeah, that’s quite a passage, sometimes called the Hall of Faith, right?

A little background here I think would be helpful. It’s important to understand that Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians who were bailing on the church. At least some of them were. They had accepted Jesus as their Messiah. They were Jews who accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah, and because of that, they were ostracized by the Jewish community in which they lived, even their own families.

As a result of that, they were targets of persecution. And some in order to avoid persecution, were returning to the Jewish faith. That’s the context here. And so, the author of Hebrews, whoever that was, we’re not sure, writes to them to encourage and exhort them to stay the course, to persevere, to continue following Jesus despite persecution.

And in this passage gives examples from their own history of men and women, who did just that, who remained faithful to God despite dangers in their journey, sometimes terrible persecution, sometimes even martyrdom. And all of these, we call them saints, died in the faith awaiting the fullness of what they hoped for, which they had not yet experienced.

And that’s the fullness of salvation, which is yet to come, in the coming resurrection. I mentioned that before. That’s the homeland for which we are looking and hoping and focusing on, and that is what helps get us through the difficult times that we often face. To sort of paraphrase Paul, if in this life only we have Christ and we don’t have this hope of the resurrection, we’re of all men most miserable.

Now, not a lot of us can say we’re being terribly persecuted for following Christ in this day and age, although I know some folks who in other parts of the world from where I am in the United States are indeed. And that’s part of the experience. And there is a real need to keep this focus on the future.

And it’s helpful to have this great cloud of witness that these examples of faithful Christians. Or faithful people of God. Some many of them were pre-Christian, if you will, who remain faithful despite the difficulties they face. And Paul, not Paul, but the author of Hebrews is wanting these people to remain faithful despite what they were going through.

Anthony: You mentioned the great cloud of witnesses. Hallelujah. Thank God for them found in 2:1. And what I want to ask you to do, invite you to do, is exegete Hebrews 12:1–2. And Ted, feel free to preach, preacher. Let’s hear.

Ted: Yeah, I have gotten into that already, but I mentioned these examples they were to follow, but it’s also important to say to them, and this is what Paul is saying, is that they are to remain faithful to Jesus, and Jesus himself is the epitome of faithfulness. These others point us in that direction, but it’s Jesus himself who is the great faithful one, who is the supreme witness, the pioneer and perfecter, the author says, of faith, of our faith, of the faith that we have been given.

How is that true? His own journey, his race consisted of enduring the cross and its shame. And by virtue of that endurance, he crossed the finish line and took his seat at the right hand of the throne of God. He triumphed. And the point is that in our journey, our race, which does require perseverance, sometimes there is suffering, but the message is, “But be encouraged — you do not run alone.” We have a faithful high priest — and he’ll speak about Jesus’ high priesthood later in this book — who has gone through it all before on our behalf, a high priest who understands, who intercedes for us, and perhaps not always delivering us from the trouble, but listen, but always there with us, encouraging, aiding, sometimes crying with us, sharing in our sufferings. So, my friends, be encouraged. Continue to run the race of faith, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith.

Anthony: What Ted just did there for our friends in the listening audience is the best kind of preaching, I believe, which leaves the congregation talking about Jesus, not the preacher, not even the sermon per se, but the God revealed in Jesus Christ. May it be so in our preaching.

Thanks, Ted.

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Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 14

Anthony: Let’s transition to our second pericope of the month. It is Hebrews 11:1–3, 8–16. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 14 in Ordinary Time, August 10. Ted, read it for us please.

Ted:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, and he set out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he stayed for a time in the land he had been promised, as in a foreign land, living in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he looked forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith, with Sarah’s involvement, he received power of procreation, even though he was too old, because he considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one person, and this one as good as dead, descendants were born, “as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.” 13 All of these died in faith without having received the promises, but from a distance they saw and greeted them. They confessed that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth, 14 for people who speak in this way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of the land that they had left behind, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better homeland, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them.

Anthony: The writer of Hebrews states over and over by faith. So, let me ask you this, Ted, what is faith and what role does it play in salvation? Is it an individual thing, a corporate thing, both or something else entirely?

Ted: In, verse one, as I read, faith, says the author, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Commentators disagree a lot about the precise meaning of the Greek words that the author is using here. And some translations look at faith as a feeling of being sure.

And other translations think of it as a substance or the content of our hope. Probably the latter is the most accurate. But rather than trying to define faith, the author of Hebrews is actually describing one of the results that faith has in our lives. So, it’s … I wouldn’t look at that necessarily as a definitive definition, but it is telling us this is what happens in your life if you have, if you practice faith.

Faith involves believing and acting on something that is not seen, something we cannot see. And this is the quality of faith that the author especially wants the readers to imitate. One possible translation would be faith is the reality of things hoped for, the proof of things not seen. And I think the thought here is that faith moves us in the direction of realizing things that are presently beyond demonstration.

By faith, we anticipate, and so, at least, in part, we experience the reality of what is believed. And though faith does not bring about that reality, contrary to some teachings, it does provide a window, if you will, through which we are able, at least in part, to view that reality, to see the unseen, so to speak.

We see this kind of faith lived out in Abraham’s life, and that is the principal, or a principal example that he gives. Without physical evidence to rely on, Abraham stepped out in faith in the direction of God’s promise — literally in that case.

And as believers we’re called to do the same. The reality we believe in and focus on by faith is our coming resurrection, which means our glorification entering into the fullness of our salvation. And though that reality is yet to be seen in faith, we rely on it. We move toward it, we lean into it, we allow it to shape our thinking, and thus, our behavior right now and doing so is not about earning salvation through faith, but about living into the promises of God who is faithful.

He can be trusted. That trust, that reliance is the essence of faith, our faithful response to the promises of our faithful God. So that’s kind of a definition, if you will, but it’s the results of possessing that faith that the author is interested in. And so, he offers the example of Abraham.

Anthony: Yeah, it’s somewhat akin to the work of the Holy Spirit, which is sometimes just described as this wind blowing. You don’t know where it comes from or where it comes from or where it’s going, but you see the evidence of the work and the presence of the Holy Spirit often in fruit, that it’s being born in somebody’s life.

And you may not see it in the moment, but you see the results. And what I hear you saying is you see the results of faith. It looks like stepping out and trusting, and ultimately, isn’t that what belief and faith are all about? It’s trusting the one who is good and is faithful to himself and to his promises.

Hallelujah. Praise God. Amen. The writer of Hebrews talks about desiring a better homeland as it’s put in verse 16.

Ted: Yes.

Anthony: What’s going on there? What does that mean? What does that look like? Tell us more.

Ted: He’s using an example for the fullness of salvation by pointing to something that his audience would’ve been very familiar with, and that is that the type of salvation in the Old Testament is the land of Canaan, called the promised land. It was the homeland that was promised to Abraham and his offspring. The homeland for us is defined in scripture as a new heaven, a new earth, the ultimate promised land, if you will. And that’s the reality toward which we, in faith, walk.

And I would add to that, even if the road is tough. And Hebrews speaks a lot about how tough that road can be, and urges us to persevere, for in faith we see what lies in the future for us. By the way we saw that in Colossians, where we are already there in that homeland, if you will — as our humanity, united to Christ is ascended and seated with Christ, just to point back to what we just saw in Colossians. But when Christ returns and we are resurrected and glorified, we will be home — home in all of its fullness, all of its glory.

Anthony: Quicken that day, Lord Jesus Christ.

Ted: Yeah, and that’s a better homeland.

Anthony: Amen, man. Let’s go!

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Ted Johnston—Year C Proper 13-17

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Ted Johnston. Ted is a faculty member at Grace Communion Seminary, where he teaches practice of ministry and Christian counseling. He’s the editor of The Surprising God, a blog focused on Trinitarian theology and its application. Ted served 32 years vocational ministry for Grace Communion International as a church pastor, district superintendent, denominational leader of youth programs, regional pastor, and publications editor, before retiring. He earned master’s degrees from Regis University and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

Ted, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is the first time we’ve had you on in a few years, welcome back. We’re curious how you are doing and how you’ve been participating with the Lord Jesus Christ these days.

Ted: Thank you, Anthony. It’s great to be with you. As you mentioned, I retired from employment with Grace Community International, and that was actually six years ago. It’s hard to believe it’s been that long, but time flies when you’re having fun or something and I have been having some fun. I continued to focus on a lot of the things I did vocationally and that includes the classes that I teach at the seminary, as you mentioned.

I also do some coaching of ministers and that’s really my focus in those things professionally, but also individually and personally, is to lean into and to live out of the life that we have in Christ. And that’s the truth of the gospel. It’s the truth of Jesus. It’s what continues to amaze and comfort and motivate me.

And to see Christ involved in the midst of all that, that spirit-led journey that we’re having with him is truly remarkable. Is it always easy? No, it’s not. We’ve been through some challenges in my family with health issues and a variety of things, but through it all I have found Jesus to be faithful. And my desire is to testify to that and to be thankful for that. And I am.

But real life happens, and sometimes real life is all too real. But the good news is that Jesus is always there. He’s the faithful, ascended, compassionate God-man who always is with us and for us. And by the way, we see that very clearly in the passages that we’re going talk about today.

[00:03:25] Anthony: Yeah. Hallelujah. Praise God that he is faithful. And as you stated so clearly, we want to bear witness to that, to testify to the truth of the goodness of God revealed in Jesus Christ. And Ted, as you were saying, we’re you don’t retire from the journey with Jesus. And we’ve got you on a journey during this podcast. We have five passages we’re going to go through, so we’re going to make you work, man.

Ted: Okay.

Anthony: You may be retired, but you’re going work today, and so let’s get to it.

Our first passage of the month is Colossians 3:1–11. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 13 in Ordinary Time, August 3.

When we see a statement like Christ is seated at the right hand of God, we can too often think spatially, Ted. But there’s more to it, right? Tell us about it.

[00:05:57] Ted: Yeah. Well, this passage, like the whole book of Colossians, is about the supremacy of Christ. And to speak of him as being seated is speaking directly to that and using thought forms that the audience that received this to begin with would be very familiar with.

So there, there’s an awful lot right there in this passage that we could go on about, but that’s a little bit of a capsule of what he is talking about when he talks about Christ being seated.

[00:08:18] Anthony: You mentioned, we are seated with him. Our humanity is, and in that way, we’re active participants of what’s happening to Christ, and Paul goes on to write in this passage that our lives are hidden in Christ.

Then he goes on to say that Christ is our life. Those are brief statements, but Ted, it seems to me there’s quite a lot theologically happening in those declarations.

Ted: That’s for sure.

Anthony: Help us understand.

[00:08:47] Ted: Well, I’ll ask a question. Does my life perfectly reflect the reality that I’m seeing with Christ in heaven?

[00:11:06] Anthony: One of the imperatives that you mentioned, if you don’t mind me asking a follow up question?

Ted: Sure.

[00:11:36] Ted: I think we have to be careful to not say: I don’t like that term, the wrath of God; so, Paul can’t possibly mean that.

[00:11:45] Anthony: Yeah.

[00:11:45] Ted: Paul’s giving a pretty definitive warning, but a warning is different than a proclamation of what is actually going to happen.

[00:13:28] Anthony: Amen. Amen and amen. And as I heard someone recently say, we can only grow as much as our willingness to be corrected in life and …

Ted: How true.

Anthony: It is a practical truth.

Ted: Yeah, that’s for sure.

[00:13:58] Ted:

[00:15:38] Anthony: The writer of Hebrews states over and over by faith. So, let me ask you this, Ted, what is faith and what role does it play in salvation? Is it an individual thing, a corporate thing, both or something else entirely?

[00:15:54] Ted: In, verse one, as I read, faith, says the author, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Commentators disagree a lot about the precise meaning of the Greek words that the author is using here. And some translations look at faith as a feeling of being sure.

[00:18:54] Anthony: Yeah, it’s somewhat akin to the work of the Holy Spirit, which is sometimes just described as this wind blowing. You don’t know where it comes from or where it comes from or where it’s going, but you see the evidence of the work and the presence of the Holy Spirit often in fruit, that it’s being born in somebody’s life.

Hallelujah. Praise God. Amen. The writer of Hebrews talks about desiring a better homeland as it’s put in verse 16.

Ted: Yes.

Anthony: What’s going on there? What does that mean? What does that look like? Tell us more.

[00:19:48] Ted: He’s using an example for the fullness of salvation by pointing to something that his audience would’ve been very familiar with, and that is that the type of salvation in the Old Testament is the land of Canaan, called the promised land. It was the homeland that was promised to Abraham and his offspring. The homeland for us is defined in scripture as a new heaven, a new earth, the ultimate promised land, if you will. And that’s the reality toward which we, in faith, walk.

[00:21:01] Anthony: Quicken that day, Lord Jesus Christ.

[00:21:04] Ted: Yeah, and that’s a better homeland.

[00:21:06] Anthony: Amen, man. Let’s go!

Let’s go on to our next pericope of the month. It’s Hebrews 11:29–12:2. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 15 in Ordinary Time, August 17.

Tortured, flogging, stoned to death, sawn in two, killed by the sword — what should we learn about, rejoice in, and soberly consider about our brothers and sisters of old?

[00:23:59] Ted: Yeah, that’s quite a passage, sometimes called the Hall of Faith, right?

[00:26:36] Anthony: You mentioned the great cloud of witnesses. Hallelujah. Thank God for them found in 2:1. And what I want to ask you to do, invite you to do, is exegete Hebrews 12:1–2. And Ted, feel free to preach, preacher. Let’s hear.

[00:26:53] Ted: Yeah, I have gotten into that already, but I mentioned these examples they were to follow, but it’s also important to say to them, and this is what Paul is saying, is that they are to remain faithful to Jesus, and Jesus himself is the epitome of faithfulness. These others point us in that direction, but it’s Jesus himself who is the great faithful one, who is the supreme witness, the pioneer and perfecter, the author says, of faith, of our faith, of the faith that we have been given.

[00:28:29] Anthony: What Ted just did there for our friends in the listening audience is the best kind of preaching, I believe, which leaves the congregation talking about Jesus, not the preacher, not even the sermon per se, but the God revealed in Jesus Christ. May it be so in our preaching.

Thanks, Ted.

Let’s transition to the next pericope, it’s Hebrews 12:18–29. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 16 in Ordinary Time, August 24. Ted, we’d be grateful if you read it.

[00:29:06] Ted:

[00:30:44] Anthony: Since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude. Hallelujah. Ted, Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant. Those are, that was, an eight-word statement, but a lot of work is being done there. It’s good news. Why is it such good news in the here and now?

[00:31:02] Ted: Yes. If we had about 12 hours, I would explain it to you in detail,

[00:31:08] Anthony: which we don’t, but

[00:31:09] Ted: … we don’t. So, suffice it to say that the author of the book of Hebrews, whoever he or she is, is comparing and contrasting the old covenant with a new covenant. And this letter, this sermon really is addressed to Jewish Christians who are extremely familiar with the old covenant.

[00:32:47] Anthony: I say it again. We are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken because God cannot be shaken. So, we should show gratitude. It’s expressed in verse 28 and the writer of Hebrews goes on to continue the thought by heralding God as a consuming fire. I’m curious, how do these things go together?

[00:33:10] Ted: As I mentioned before the author is drawing from the Old Testament, in other words, the Hebrew scriptures, which these Jewish Christians were very familiar with and using stories and symbols, events that were very familiar to them and the language that’s being used here he is drawing directly from Israel’s experience in the Exodus and which God revealed his presence to Israel in a cloud by day and by fire at night.

[00:35:11] Anthony: I think you’ve said something vitally important because there’s a misunderstanding sometimes, especially from critics of Christianity, that God is somehow this needy, self-absorbed God who needs our worship.

Ted: Yeah.

Anthony: He doesn’t.

Ted: No.

Ted: Yes.

Anthony: He doesn’t have to be conditioned to be good. He is good. But it does something to our hearts and I think that’s so important for us to see God.

Hallelujah.

Our final passage of the month is Hebrews 13:1–8, 15–16. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 17 in Ordinary Time, August 31.

Ted: Don’t get me going.

Anthony: Well, I’m inviting you to, actually.

[00:38:10] Ted: I don’t mean to get on my high horse because this speaks to my heart and is convicting, but I must say that the author of Hebrews …

Anthony: Yes.

And so there we are. He’s ending on a pretty strong note with these folks and it’s a word of correction for sure.

[00:42:43] Anthony: It is, because if the church looks exactly like the world and its priorities, how can the church bear witness to Christ? How can it be an agent of change in the world?

[00:43:56] Ted: Yeah. Both the passage we read in Colossians, and now this in Hebrews — those were written nearly 2000 years ago, are really relevant today. And the reason for that is because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

[00:45:12] Anthony: And there you have it folks. Ted, it’s great to have you back. We’ve worked together in various ministry capacities through the years and we haven’t had a chance to catch up in months. It’s great to chat with you brother about the good news revealed in Jesus and holy scripture.

Tec: Likewise.

Anthony: This has been really sweet to have you on. And as a final word to our listening audience, I want to remind you, God has torn the temple curtain.

Ted: Amen.

The promise of what is to come, new heaven and new earth, and let us move forward in the power of the Holy Spirit.

[00:46:19] Ted: Sure. Let’s pray.

And Father, may you work in us what is pleasing to you through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. In his name we pray. Amen.

[00:47:40] Anthony: Amen.

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Andrew Torrance—Year C Proper 9-12

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Andrew Torrance. Andrew is a professor of theology at the University of St. Andrew’s School of Divinity. He’s also the co-director of the Logos Institute of Analytical and Exegetical Theology, along with Oliver Crisp.

Dr. Torrance is a member of a group of scholars organized by BioLogos, exploring the nature of human identity and personhood. Recently he finished co-writing with Alan Torrance, the book Beyond Eminence, the Theological Vision of Kierkegaard and Barth.

Andrew, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on the pod, we’d like to know a little bit about you, your story, and how you are participating with Jesus these days.

Andrew: Okay. Thank you, Anthony. It’s really great to be here. And it’s always hard to know where to start, when I say something about who I am. But as you mentioned, I teach theology at the University of St. Andrews. I see that as my primary calling. And serving the church in this world through working with students and helping them to really know and understand who the triune God of love is, and how we in creation relate to that God. And so that’s my primary calling in this world. But I’m also actively involved in the church very well in the Church of Scotland as an elder.

And actually, recently though, I’ve been more involved in a denomination called United Free Church, where I’ve been attending a slightly different congregation for a while. I was very involved with in a fresh expression of ministry in St. Andrews, where we ran a breakfast church in St. Andrews. But for a variety of reasons, COVID wasn’t great for a breakfast church, and so we ended up having a hiatus, which sort of ended up finishing that ministry. Since then, I’ve been taking a bit of a season of time out from being more actively involved in church ministry. But I’m going to be starting doing a bit more preaching things again and being involved in different ways as well. Yeah, that’s me.

[00:03:03] Anthony: I mentioned in the introduction Andrew, that you wrote a book called Beyond Eminence, and I’m just curious. I haven’t had a chance to read it, but I plan to. So, what insights are you hoping somebody like me will take away from the reading experience?

[00:03:18] Andrew: Great. So, there’s a variety of different topics that we’re covering in that book. It’s primarily a book thinking about the relationship between Kierkegaard and Karl Barth. But I think what makes them so interesting as thinkers is that there are two thinkers that really center their theology and their Christian vision on the reality of Jesus Christ, what it means to participate in that reality and to follow Jesus Christ in a world that is always resisting that reality.

And particularly it’s interesting to think about them in the respective context as they sought to understand the gospel in ways that were resistant to forms of Christian nationalism, a Christendom context that’s kind of enculturated Christianity in ways that merged it with a lot of what was going on in society to the detriment of the gospel.

And so, what they tried to present was something that was entirely new and fresh, to really speak God’s words in a new way to their context, in ways that was both challenging, but also affirming people, and encouraging them with a hope for there being so much more to the nature of this world as a world that’s created by God, and while that’s created by God to find its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

[00:04:33] Anthony: And it sounds timely. And I’m just curious, you co-wrote it with Alan Torrance. Did your dad try to boss you around with the text, tell you what to write?

[00:04:44] Andrew: It was definitely an ongoing conversation. So, I actually did my PhD on Karl Barth, and so I actually wrote my half before he really started working on his half.

But then, yes, I wrote my part here at his house. And then I made a lot of changes based on what he wrote, and then there was a bit of, quite a bit of a back and forth over a few years. And yeah, yeah, there was no bossing around, but it was, yeah, there was definitely a constructive conversation going on.

[00:05:16] Anthony: Sure. Sure. I look forward to getting the book and let’s do this, let’s dive into the lectionary text that we have this month. That’s why we’re here.

Our first pericope of the month is Galatians 6:7–16. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 9 in Ordinary Time, July 6.

Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. 8 If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh, but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. 10 So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all and especially for those of the family of faith. 11 See what large letters I make when I am writing in my own hand! 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who try to compel you to be circumcised—only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Even the circumcised do not themselves obey the law, but they want you to be circumcised so that they may boast about your flesh. 14 May I never boast of anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation is everything! 16 As for those who will follow this rule—peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Andrew, how would you explain sowing to the flesh versus sowing to the Spirit, which we find in verse 8. And how can this text be read without being overly prescriptive or sounding like karma dressed up in Christianity?

[00:07:16] Andrew: Great, thank you, Anthony. So, the sow to the Spirit is to recognize first that the reality of something going on in this world that is so much greater than the ways in which we define the world for ourselves. And that’s something theological. It’s witnessing to the triune God and the particular ways in which God is working in the world. And following Pentecost, God works in the world through the Spirit, who is at work in the church animating and empowering our lives to express something that goes beyond what is on the kind of the surface of this world.

Those things that appear to us immediately. And so often, the habits of the way we interpret the world, is to reduce the reality to what is immediately in front of us, to allow our basic instincts to determine the direction of our lives, to let this world as it’s kind of closed in its own kind of bubble to be what defines all that there is in this world.

And what it means to sow to the Spirit is to seek the more to reality, and that more to reality is the way in which God is defining it from beyond the ways in which the world might try to define itself. Okay? And so that means that we are called to participate in something that is beyond our every expectation.

Okay? So, this kind of way we might think about balance and forms of karma, is to operate in very human categories. Where there it’s dealing with the work of the Spirit, there’s something incredibly inspiring and just very new, which means that we’re constantly required to seek God in ways that allow him to speak to us in new ways, to guide our lives in new directions.

And that means transformation — to receive and to sow our life to the Spirit is to be people that are transformed in ways that align us with God’s kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven.

[00:09:22] Anthony: I didn’t plan to ask you this question, so I hope you don’t mind, but as I’m looking at verse 9, it talks about not growing weary and doing good.

And there’s that preposition “if”, and it can sound very conditional: “if you don’t give up.” Is there a word of good news for somebody who maybe in their walk with Christ right now who is just feeling like they want to give up? Is there something we can take away from that as good news?

[00:09:51] Andrew: What this verse is doing with its “if” isn’t simply prescriptive, it’s descriptive. And what this verse is doing is telling you about the reality of things that gives people a sense of security and a groundedness that is beyond what they’re able to achieve for themselves. And it encourages people to rest, to embrace that kind of Sabbath reality.

And when they’re weary, to take time out to seek God and to seek a form of empowerment and inspiration and energy that they just don’t have the capacity to achieve. I think when some things are taken out of our hands, when we recognize that there’s something beyond us that is securing our lives in this world, that can give people a sense of peace and rest.

But with any answer like this, we’ve got to know the specifics of the situations and the struggles that people are facing, I think, in order to address them better. But I think simply being, simply recognizing that the gospel calls people to a sense of peace and rest in order for them to be empowered to be witnesses to the reality of the gospel, I think that’s something that should ease the minds of people that are experiencing stress and anxiety in their lives.

[00:11:09] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word, Andrew. You talked about just resting and I have found, just my own personal experience and you mentioned this as well, discerning the particularity of the situation. But when I grow weary, I’m trying to do too much on my own like by my own strength and my own might, which is fragile, anemic at best. And so, leaning on Christ, as you said. And we read here, Paul writes in verse 15, that new creation is everything. Okay, everything. So, what’s he getting at?

[00:11:46] Andrew: There’s so many things that can be got at with these words. How I take them is that Paul is challenging the ways in which we are living in the old creation. In some ways, as I said already, we settle into the patterns of this world and make that world everything. We settle into the patterns of the flesh, we make these patterns, everything.

And when we recognize the reality of who God is for us in Jesus Christ, and we recognize the ways in which we’re embraced constantly by the power of the Holy Spirit, that requires us to recognize that this newness is everything. It is everywhere. It surrounds us. It’s elevating us into experiencing reality in a way that is transformative. And to say that this newness is everywhere and that it is, everything, resists our desire to guess It.

I think when we, it’s so easy for us to compartmentalize in ways that puts our Christian faith into a small quarter in the room, into a small box, maybe a box we open on a Sunday morning, or maybe when we open a few times a day when we pray. And we compartmentalize our lives in ways that means that we’re not always living into that reality.

And what this verse tells us is to say, no, you shouldn’t be doing that. This is fundamental to every aspect of your lives, and unless you learn to interpret your bias, you’re calling in this world more than that, you’re going to be deluded. You’re going to be living into the old passions of this world, so into the flesh in ways that means that you’re missing out on what is actually going on. You’re asleep, you’re not awakened to the reality of the worth of the Spirit.

[00:13:33] Anthony: Wake up, O sleeper. Let’s go.

Alright, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is Colossians 1:1–14. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 10 in Ordinary Time on July 13. Andrew, would you read it for us, please?

[00:13:54] Andrew: Yes, of course.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ in Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3 In our prayers for you we always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 for we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel 6 that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God. 7 This you learned from Epaphras, our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he has made known to us your love in the Spirit. 9 For this reason, since the day we heard it, we have not ceased praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of God’s will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, as you bear fruit in every good work and as you grow in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, so that you may have all endurance and patience, joyfully 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[00:15:43] Anthony: Whew. That’s a mouthful. There’s a lot going on here. And I’m curious. Before I get into the questions, I wanted to ask you when we come to scripture, the first question of theology is, who is God being revealed in Jesus Christ? So, what would you want to say to a congregation, your congregation, about God as revealed in this text?

[00:16:04] Andrew: Very simply, it’s easy to think about God as this kind of transcendent reality that doesn’t really engage with us in this world in a way that we can really see and be receptive to, that is tangible. So often, when we talk about God, we think about spirituality in ways that are very removed from the world in which we find ourselves.

Anthony: Yeah.

Andrew: And that’s just not the case. The heart of the Christian message is the fact that God becomes one amongst us in and through the eternal Son, assuming human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, such that we are given a clarity into who he understands humanity to be, and communicates to us with a much, much greater clarity than anywhere else about who God is for us in this person. So, we can, we should, of course, take seriously the whole of scripture. But I think at the heart, the core of scripture is this revelation of God’s very self in this person of Jesus Christ that kind of gives us a center, a clarity as to who God really is. There is no God behind Jesus Christ. God is with us in and through the very person, Jesus Christ. And so, if we really want to know God, we look to this person.

And if we come … we often hear things that might make us nervous about who Jesus Christ is. And in those times, we can set our eyes upon Jesus and get a clarity. Just, I often find myself asking myself, “Can I imagine these words being in the mouth of Jesus Christ.” And if I can’t, I think that should really give me pause, in questioning, in asking whether it really is telling us something about who God is and the way that God relates to the world.

[00:18:02] Anthony: I’m really grateful for that, because as we come to my next question about walking worthy of the Lord, it’s a phrase that we see often in Pauline epistles. And if we’re not looking to Jesus Christ, we can be thrown back on ourselves, that, “Oh man, I’ve got to buckle up here and walk worthy.”

And there’s a both/and, right? There’s the fact that Jesus walked worthy of the Lord and thanks be to God. So, I wanted to know what does this phrase mean to the original hearers? And how should we interpret this imperative and live accordingly?

[00:18:42] Andrew: So, it’s always hard to work out exactly, but it means the original hearers. But I suspect it probably means something similar to how we would hear it today, insofar as I understand it this far. And that’s saying that we need to live in a way that is true to the person Jesus Christ, and also to his ministry, to the ministry to which he calls us — is to recognize the importance of embracing his call on our lives, to seeing his call as a story, descriptive of the ways in which we live our lives in this world. Okay? So very simply, I think it means that we need to live our lives in a way that takes Jesus seriously.

And it’s by doing that, that we come to reflect the reality of who he is into this world, that we live our lives in a way that bears witness to this reality of the gospel. And now, I think in some ways this is a … we have quite simple methods. We just need to follow Jesus Christ in ways that really take seriously who he is and what he is calling us to.

But this is something that all the time, I think the church is failing to do in this world. So many of the ways in which Christians are represented in the world, I just do not think reflect the reality of who Jesus Christ is. And I often find myself just thinking, when I hear Christians say things that I think are a bit dashed, I just wish they would really take a bit more time to reflect on the ministry of Jesus Christ and ask themselves whether the kinds of things they’re saying about what the church should be in this world is really reflecting on the ministry of Jesus.

[00:20:18] Anthony: And what you just said strikes me as thinking about Karl Barth. I think it was Barth that talked about how all of us need to be theologians, ultimately, which is our understanding of God, our God talk, our God speech, that we really do need to think, and God has given us his highest resolution of himself in the person of Jesus, right?

So, it goes to what you said — taking Jesus seriously. And so, with that in mind, I ask a question that we find parked in verses 12 and 14. It seems to me as we exegete those verses, God is making all the salvific moves, not us. So, what is your theological take for preachers and teachers who will be proclaiming this text to their congregations?

[00:21:05] Andrew: Yeah, I think it was just absolutely right. This verse says that our salvation, our redemption, is fundamentally grounded in what God is doing for us in and through the person of Jesus Christ. It’s not something that God is starting to do and then putting things in our hands to finish a job.

Everything about redemption is accomplished in and through the person of Jesus Christ. Okay, so redemption has been established as a reality for this world. It’s a reality for creation. This world has been made new in and through the person of Jesus Christ. But, of course, when you look around in this world, we see so many ways in which this world continues to be broken, to be confused, to be sinful.

And that’s because we’re sleeping. We’re sleeping to the reality of redemption, and we are needing to be woken up from our slumber. We need to allow the Spirit to empower our lives so that we can reflect the reality of redemption, the reality of this good news, of the fact that all things have been made new in and through Jesus Christ.

And by waking up we become people that are living into God’s kingdom, that are participating in God’s kingdom of redemption, and that enables us to become empowered as witnesses to that reality, to become people who are showing the inauguration of God’s kingdom in this world.

And when we do that, when we participate in God’s kingdom, one thing that I think that we need to become clear as we grow into this redeemed reality is that we need to stop pretending to be the kings and queens over our own kingdoms, to recognize that we’re participating in something that is far greater.

And again, this is in some ways, it’s an obvious theological point to make. But there’s ways in which we, it’s almost a default for us, to keep returning to seeing ourselves as the center of this world, the kind primary or authority over our lives. There are so many ways in which I think autonomy can be understood to be a good thing and a proper thing, but there’s ways in which you can often overemphasize it in ways that allows us to view ourselves as the primary meaning makers of what this world is all about.

And that’s just not the case. And so far as we are redeemed, we’re called to discover who we are as new persons, and through Jesus Christ we’re called to see this is what redemption means — that all things have been made new. And this is something that we need to see.

We need to open our eyes and our ears. We need to wake up and smell a coffee. And that’s not something that we can do again by ourselves, but something we depend upon the Spirit to do in our lives. We need to know. And we need to go to places to participate in life, in church, to go to practices, to pray, to read our scripture, because it’s through these things that the Spirit is working the world again, encouraging us to wake up and smell the coffee.

[00:24:08] Anthony: Yeah, that’s interesting, it’s been years since I’ve studied it, but if I remember correctly, the word redemption there in the Greek is apolytrōsis. Which means to be set free just for freedom’s sake, not to be used by the master in abusive ways, but to be set free.

And once you’ve been set free, you want to go with the one that set you free, who has made that salvific move. And to participate in his reality — like you said, to wake up. And this is something, I don’t know if you face it in the UK, but here in the United States, man, everybody wants agency and they’re just demanding agency.

But agency has to be understood in the light of Jesus Christ, right? That, yes, I get to participate, but I’m not the master of my own domain. I’m not the king or queen, as you said. That is such an important word, don’t you think for today’s scenario?

[00:25:10] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that we forget, in some of the ways in which we think about what freedom is, that we often think that freedom is the freedom to do whatever. But when we’re thinking about what the freedom is as it’s defined by the gospel, freedom involves us being awakened to see the prisons in which we are enslaving ourselves by sin, that it’s to open our eyes to the problem of sin, to make ourselves conscious of sin as something that is not freeing us, but constraining us in a state of bondage, and that we are tying ourselves down from embracing the reality of who we truly are as we are known by God. And when we do that, we don’t flourish in the way that we are truly called to flourish in this world. We can’t know who we truly are unless we know the one who truly knows us.

[00:26:02] Anthony: Bam. There it is.

Let’s pivot to our next pericope for the month. It is Colossians 1:15–28. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 11 and Ordinary Time, July 20.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. 21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through death, so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a minister of this gospel. 24 I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. 25 I became its minister according to God’s commission that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations but has now been revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 It is he whom we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone in all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ.

Glory hallelujah. This pericope is a breathtaking Christological tour-de-force. Take it away. Andrew. I just want to give you an opportunity to riff on the text.

[00:28:45] Andrew: Great, thank you. I know we’re not allowed to have favorite passages and scripture.

Anthony: Yes, you are. Let’s go for it.

Andrew: But this is definitely up there for me, and there’s just so much going on in this passage. And I could write books, if I had the time. But I just really want to focus in on something that I think is just really central in this passage that I think is so neglected by the church today. I think so often when Christians try to understand what creation is all about, how we understand the doctrine of creation, we often just turn to the early chapters of Genesis. And that sometimes means that we end up, in fact it does mean very often, that we end up with a vision of what creation is that neglects Jesus Christ. It is … what often ends up happening is, Jesus Christ ends up becoming this person that turns up later as kind of God’s plan B to make the world become good like it was in the beginning.

And what Colossians 1 tells us is that, no, from the very beginning, Jesus Christ was a part of the plan for creation. Now, God creates the world in, through, and for the person of Jesus Christ. We can’t understand what creation is apart from the conclusion for which God prepared it. The reason, the very reason that God created the world, was so that the Son could be born.

And what’s significant about that is that God, or at least the scripture, is revealing the fact that creation is to be identified with the person of Jesus Christ. And through him we are drawn to participate in the triune koinonia, the triune communion that shapes the life of God. We are not just created to exist in and of ourselves.

God doesn’t just create the world to live on its own terms, to leave it be, and then remove God’s self into the transcendence in which God lives. Now God is with us, not just through his presence, but in and through the very humanity of his Son, Jesus Christ. And it’s that to which God creates the world.

What is fundamental to understanding what creation is, is the person of Jesus Christ. God creates the world not to find its end in itself. And we often think about creation as having value in and of itself, as being an end in itself. But theology, Christian theology resists that. We’re not called to be ends in and of ourselves, but to be a creation that finds its end in God.

And the way in which we find our end in God is by God becoming one with creation, so that in him, in the very person of the Son according to his humanity, humanity would be, and not just humanity, but the whole creation would be at one with God. And so, it’s in this very person that creation finds fulfillment. And so, in order for creation to be all that it was created to be, it needs to come to know the way in which God has identified it with the person of the Son.

So, it is in and through him that we come to know what creation is all about. Again, when we just think about Genesis 1, it becomes very easy for us to just try to understand creation as something that God created that has its own kind of meaning and character that God has then left to itself.

But that’s just not the case. We have to always understand that the starting point for understanding creation, and the ending point, is this person of Jesus Christ.

[00:32:29] Anthony: Yeah. Just thinking about the telos, the ending — we’re in the Christian calendar in the season of Eastertide and last week we were in John 20 where Mary of Magdala encounters the risen Lord. And she thought he was a gardener. And I just think there’s so much there. You don’t want to try to extrapolate too much, but this divine gardener shows up who is tending to this creation that he loves, that he’s bound to. And it gives us meaning and purpose in him, like you said.

And I’m so grateful for that because we do start in Genesis, and often, we don’t even start in Genesis 1, we start in Genesis 3 with the fall, right? And then, that becomes the overall or at least the starting point for how people present the gospel, instead of original belonging and the purpose of, meaning of, creation.

As we look through this text, Andrew — and there is so much here, so it’s hard to pick and choose what to talk about — but I do, I did notice we know that Paul frequently talks about being “in Christ”, but it’s rare that we find the phrasing “Christ in you”, which we see in verse 27. Can you tell us more about this hope of glory?

[00:33:43] Andrew: Yeah.

Anthony: Great.

Andrew: So, I think to understand this verse, we need to understand it with reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. And Jesus Christ sends the Spirit into the world to be someone who represents the reality of Jesus Christ. And the Spirit dwells within us, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ dwells within us.

And so, yeah, when the Spirit is working our lives, there’s ways in which Christ really is within us. Christ is present in the life of believers, and as we grow in faith, he becomes more and more someone who’s at the very heart of the Christians’ lives, animating and empowering us to reflect Christ in the world.

So, by being transformed by the Spirit within, so that Christ is really present within us, our lives can then come to reflect the reality of Jesus Christ and the world. Our lives become mobilized. They become witnesses to this mysterious glory of Jesus Christ, who’s revealed to the world. And so, what’s really significant here is that Christ is revealed through us.

Not just us by ourselves, but us through the empowering work of the Holy Spirit. And that means that we have a key responsibility in this world to be people that are constantly bearing witness to that reality. And without us, without the church doing this work, there’s so many people that don’t get the opportunity to receive this reality in their lives, because God doesn’t do things without us. He might take priority, but God is very much creating a ministry that includes us and is using us to, to yeah, to spread the good news.

[00:35:28] Anthony: Yeah. And then, part of that is this reconciliation that we have in Christ. He was reconciling all things to the Father, and I remind us of what Karl Barth wrote, “Christ accomplishes the reality of our reconciliation with God, not its possibility.” And I think that’s an important word, and in the way that the gospel, quote unquote, is often presented to the masses.

All right. We have one pericope left in the month, so let’s transition to it. It is Colossians 2:6–15. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 12 in Ordinary Time, July 27. Andrew, we’d be grateful if you’d read it.

[00:36:15] Andrew: Yes, of course.

As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 Watch out that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fullness in him, who is the head of every ruler and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by the removal of the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses, 14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

[00:37:35] Anthony: Hallelujah. Yeah. I’ve heard a few preachers say philosophy is to be avoided because it’s humanistic. And verse 8 is often referenced to make their point. And I wanted to ask this question of you because you’ve written a book that, which in part looks at the theological vision of Soren Kierkegaard, who was a philosopher. So, can theology and philosophy work together for good? And if so, how so?

Andrew: Yeah. Great. So, one of the key things that we need to note in this passage is that the problem isn’t simply philosophy, it is philosophy defined according to human tradition, …

Anthony: There you go.

[00:38:11] Andrew: … according to the elemental principles of this world. Okay? So, philosophy is only a problem when its approach is grounded in a kind of naturalistic or an atheistic vision of the world, okay? … when it tries to become a its own form of theology or a theology, if you like … when it sees itself as a kind of human wisdom apart from God as being fundamental to think how we think about things.

But when philosophy is simply functioning as a discipline, that in which we think hard about the meaning of concepts, about how these concepts relate to another and how we can use these concepts to make sense of the world, to become part of our arguments to wrestle with moral questions, metaphysical questions, a whole host of other things that are part of the theological task, then it does not need to be a problem whatsoever. Indeed, my experience has been that I’ve been able to, yeah, really grow in my theology by engaging not only, I think, with Christian philosophers, but secular philosophers as well.

But what is really important is that we always recognize the fundamental role that theology plays in helping us to think about the philosophical task. So, philosophy always needs to be understood truly according to a theological framework. Okay, that means that when I’m doing, when I’m engaged in philosophy, I think that my approach to philosophy always needs to be a Christian approach. It always needs to, and therefore always needs to be theological in many respects.

And so, I think this has been the case. If there’s ways in which Christian philosophy actually can be seen as a form of theology. I think there’s maybe more going on in theology when we’re engaging with questions in church history, when we’re engaging in biblical studies, and when we’re doing … there’s a lot going on when we’re engaged in the theological task.

But I certainly think the one part of it can be the kind of work that we do with philosophy to develop our arguments, to understand the meaning of what we’re saying, yeah, in ways that can be more profound, really help us to be clear and more convincing about what we’re saying when we’re engaged in Christian theology.

[00:40:34] Anthony: As you look across the landscape of philosophy, is there a stream of philosophy that concerns you the most, that is according to human tradition, that’s elemental, secular, atheological, as you said? Is there one that gives you more pause and concern than any other?

[00:40:53] Andrew: It’s hard to just talk about a form of philosophy that is a particularly problematic. I think there’s ways in which different forms can have their own kinds of problems. I think in some ways, one of the approaches that concerns me, but I also think can be a very good thing, is certain approaches to say something like apologetics that suggests in various ways that in order for Christianity to be recognized to be true, we need to understand it in philosophical terms.

Anthony: I love it.

Andrew: There’s a real, there’s a real danger there that I think Christianity can become subject in certain approaches, and again, I definitely don’t want to generalize here, but there’s ways in which it can end up bending the knee, subjecting to authority that is primarily defined by human tradition, the elemental principles of this world.

And theology is testifying to something much greater. So, it can’t be kind of constricted with the mechanism of the boxes of human tradition. And it’s a danger when we’re doing apologetics that we try to defend the nature of Christianity in ways that means Christianity ends up being conformed to a particular narrow view of human understanding, which can cause it to become much smaller than it actually is.

[00:42:17] Anthony: It seems to me, Andrew, that in all things we have to have the highest possible Christology. Whether it’s philosophy, thinking about the way we live our lives, the way that we engage our neighbor ecclesiology, the way we think about the churches, it all comes back to Jesus Christ, doesn’t it?

[00:42:33] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:34] Anthony: If we want to end up in the right place. As simple as that.

[00:42:38] Andrew: Yeah. And it’s very simple. I think sometimes when we talk a lot about God, I definitely think we always have to talk about God, but God is, can be such a … God is transcendent. God is hidden. God is beyond what we’re able to grasp with our own understanding. God is invisible and so when we’re given an image of that invisible God, it gives us something to which we can tone our eyes, which gives us a clarity in the midst of the uncertainty, which I think can just give us a confidence about who God is in relationship to creation that we wouldn’t otherwise be able to find.

[00:43:17] Anthony: So, if you’re proclaiming this text to your congregation now in this moment, 2025, especially considering the geopolitical moment of uncertainty, what are you going to herald?

[00:43:31] Andrew: Yeah, I’m going to herald Jesus Christ. The reality to be …

Anthony: There you go.

Andrew: … but not just Jesus Christ. As I’ve said a few times, we need to recognize that there’s no knowing Jesus Christ without works having to be stirred up in the world, and that the way in which you relate to the risen and ascended Jesus Christ is through the power of the Holy Spirit. We also don’t want to neglect the Father, God the Father who is overall, that we need to not just have a Christology, but also have a trinitarian ontology such that we understand who Jesus Christ is as a revelation, not just of the Son, but of the triune God …

Anthony: Yes.

Andrew: … in and through whom God is working in the world to draw creation into the love that God is in himself, in God’s sovereignty, in these three persons, in this communion of three persons. And when we experience that reality, our lives can begin to correspond to the coherence that undergirds all things, that holds all things together.

And when we encounter that transformative power in our lives, I really think that the ways in which the world is divided can be overcome, that we can be drawn together in a way that means that we won’t escape the tensions and the disagreements, but those will never overcome the ways in which we learn to love one another.

And I think that’s something to which the church really needs to give priority at this moment of time and needs to be seen as something that’s bringing unity, like coherence to the world, that is trying to bring people together rather than tear them apart.

And there will of course be times when the church has to offer a challenge. I think there’s a need now for it to be bearing witness to one who is going to unite us, bring us together, despite the ways in which society might divide us. I’d love to see the church being a bit clearer on this point.

[00:45:37] Anthony: Do you have a moment where I can ask you one final theological question before we wrap up?

Andrew: Yeah. Yes, of course.

Anthony: … because you said something that really is interesting to me. It’s fascinating. I’ve often said that Christology is the tip of the spear of theology, because God has revealed himself in Jesus Christ. But you said something that’s really, I think, important to discuss. Is there a way for the church to focus so much on Jesus Christ in isolation, that it does any sort of detriment in terms of the way that we teach or think about Christian living where Jesus stands alone apart from the Father and the Spirit? Is there anything that concerns you in that way?

[00:46:22] Andrew: Yeah, we definitely don’t want to be doing Christology without a trinitarian theology. And there are so many dangers when we separate the two and neglect trinitarian theology. We can end up with a kind of view of Jesus Christ, as someone who is just an impressive philosopher, a teacher of wisdom who lived and died, and some people thought rose again 2,000 years ago. And then we miss out on the bigger picture. And so, we don’t want the church to just be a community that is following the philosophy of Jesus Christ. We’re following someone who is alive for us today and has continued to reveal God to the world as the one who’s the ground of our very existence, the very end for which, in which we find our fulfillment. And so, the danger with bracketing out the trinitarian theology is that we just end up with a much smaller Jesus, a nearly human Jesus. And when we go there, we miss out on the bigger picture.

[00:47:29] Anthony: Yeah. And it’s a beautiful picture of the triune God — Father, Son, and Spirit.

And I want to thank you for your time, Andrew. It’s been beautiful having this conversation with you. And friends, I want to leave you with this thought from Origen, one of the early church fathers. He said, “… for truly before Jesus, the scripture was water. But after Jesus, it has become wine for us.” So, as you drink in of holy scripture, may the Spirit mediate and may you be filled with the type of Spirit that leads you to intimacy with God.

I want to thank our team that makes this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman. It’s such a joy to work with these people who make all of this come together. And Andrew, again, thank you for your wisdom and insights of scripture as revealed in Jesus Christ. And as our tradition, we’d love for you to say a word of prayer for us as we close.

[00:48:26] Andrew: Yes. Oh, let’s pray.

Heavenly Father, we thank you for creating us to be so much more than we could ever be in and of ourselves, to become far more than we could ever imagine ourselves to be on our own, but to be people that are called to be united with you, to be people transformed by your grace and called of your glorious purpose as it is disclosed and in the person of Jesus Christ.

And Lord, we thank you for rescuing us from the darkness. And for drawing us into the kingdom of your beloved Son, not just as a reality to anticipate when you die, but to a reality that we can live into today to experience the reality of redemption, to experience the forgiveness of sins every day in this world, so that we might be a light that could communicate this joy, this glory to the world.

And so, Lord, to do this, we just ask that you would send your Spirit to fill us with the knowledge of your will, to awaken us to wisdom and understanding, and by the power of your Holy Spirit, Lord, be strengthened for us to walk in a manner that is worthy of you, to bear fruit with every good work, to grow deeper in our knowledge of who you are, and through that to understand more faithfully who we are all as witnesses to you and, Lord, just be asked that you’d root us in the hope of your glory, that Christ would be within us, so that we could reveal Christ to the world. Draw us close to you, Lord, that we might faithfully proclaim your wisdom, your grace, and your love to the world that so desperately needs it. We ask all these things in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Anthony: Amen.

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The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Jon DePue. Jon is the co-author of the book Beyond Justification: Liberating Paul’s Gospel, which he co-wrote with Douglas Campbell. He is also the co-host of the YouTube channel and podcast, “Apocalypse Here: Christianity You Can Live With.” (That sounds good.) Jon earned a Master of Divinity from Duke Divinity from right here in beautiful Durham, North Carolina.

Jon, thanks for being with us and welcome to the pod. And since this is your first time. Glad you’re here. We’d love to know a little bit about you, your personal story, and how you’re joining with Jesus these days.

[00:01:30] Jon: Sure, happy to. Thank you for inviting me on, Anthony. And yeah, if we want to go way back. I can narrate my story a little bit.

I grew up in the Des Moines, Iowa area, so I’m a native Iowan. I grew up in a family context that was not particularly religious or specifically Christian. But of course, that’s in the water. My grandparents were quite devout and Pentecostal to be precise. So, in terms of church stuff, it was mostly going to church with them because they lived in the area.

But going to college was the first time that I started interacting with ideas, like seriously interacting with ideas, about faith and God and Jesus and all of that. I went into college and started as a Philosophy major and ended up taking a couple of classes in the Religion department because at that time they were a combined department, Philosophy and Religion, and was struck by what I was reading in an academic setting about God from these ancient thinkers who were writing about God and Jesus Christ.

And I was struck by this sort of story that they were telling about a God of love being revealed in Christ and how that impacts their lives and how they think about reality, how they think about other people, how they think about what it means to be a person. And over the course of my college days, I got to a point where, and I can’t really name a precise moment, but I think I came to a point where I was like, you know what? I think this stuff is true.

So, it became — once an academic exercise in trying to write good papers and get good grades and all of that. But at the same time, it was becoming more and more clear that this stuff was drawing me in, the content of it.

And I’m in the God who is being spoken about by these key thinkers in the Christian tradition, people like Origen, people like Augustine, people like Gregory of Nyssa. All of that stuff was impacting me on a personal level. And yeah, I got to a point where I was comfortable calling myself a Christian and started attending a local Presbyterian church and getting involved there under the mentorship of one of my professors at that college.

It was a little liberal arts college called Simpsons college in Iowa. And toward the end of my time there, I started to feel a sense of call to further study. And I didn’t really know what that meant, but my advisor at my college was a Duke graduate.

And so, he kindly pushed me in that direction. And by kindly he said, you should apply there. And so, I did, and I got into Duke and started studying there at that MDiv program at Duke, trying to find my way through that and ended up, through what’s known as field education, basically interning at various churches in North Carolina specifically the Durham area, Triangle area (Durham, Raleigh, Chapel Hill), and getting involved in churches.

And I started to realize I had a real passion for teaching. In that context, teaching about God in that context and walking people through questions about faith, questions about God and all of that. So, I spent a lot of time in churches, in Christian education sort of settings and loved it so much.

And I worked for several years at a United Church of Christ church in Cary. And I should go back a little bit. I met my now wife at Duke as well, not to overlook that. I met her in a doctoral seminar that I was kindly let into.

[00:06:04] Anthony: That’s usually where it happens — doctoral seminars.

[00:06:05] Jon: Yes, that’s where the romance really sparks.

[00:06:05] Anthony: That’s right, the fire burns.

[00:06:06] Jon: Yeah, that’s exactly right, yeah. Pretty much everyone can relate to that. Yeah, so I worked in at the United Church of Christ Church, called Good Shepherd, in Cary for a long time. Then we ended up — my wife ended up taking a job in Virginia, so we moved to Virginia for a while, and then I ended up getting a job in Indianapolis, and we’ve been all over the place for the past few years.

But my love for teaching and my love for writing about the good news of Jesus Christ, of his love, and (as you said, in our prayer to kick things off) this love that never ends, that can’t be broken by anything we do. That is the sort of driving point for how I think about everything — how I think about other people, how I think about reality.

And that kind of connects back to how I became a Christian in the first place was becoming confronted with this unconditionally loving God revealed in Christ. So that’s my story in a nutshell.

[00:07:16] Anthony: But you said that you wanted to get good grades and I’m assuming you did — you graduated. So, congratulations! And that led you to do some writing. And so, I’m going to ask you about your recently released book, but before I do, I’m going to commit the cardinal sin of podcasting. I’m going to stack three questions into one for the sake of time, but you sound like a smart guy, so I’m sure you can handle it.

First of all, just tell us about the book Beyond Justification. What prompted you to write it? What do you hope readers will get from it? And what do you mean when you say beyond justification?

[00:07:54] Jon: So, to just take these in order. What prompted me to write this with Douglas, specifically. So, Douglas Campbell is a New Testament scholar at Duke, and he was assigned as my advisor at Duke. So, I followed him around like a bad smell for my three years there. I learned tons. I learned so much from him, and I really became persuaded by his kind of approach to specifically Pauline theology and more specifically to his reading or rereading of the book of Romans, especially the front end of Romans, which is a really tricky text — Romans 1-3.

And he wrote this giant book over a thousand pages back in 2009 called The Deliverance of God. And I became a pretty much obsessed with that book and what it was about, the arguments he was making there about how Paul is actually, in Romans 1-3, quoting an opponent and then going on to respond to that opponent that he set up and characterized in a certain way.

And what ends up happening is that Paul becomes really consistent in his thinking about who God is. And especially who God is in Jesus Christ specifically.

So, I was like, this is great, but it’s a thousand pages. It’s also very technical. You need to know Greek to really get it. He’s going through tons of different disciplines, semiotics, philosophy, theology, sociology, and bringing all of these things together in a way that is really intimidating, I think, for the everyday person.

So, after I graduated, my thought was, is there a way to make this stuff that I find personally and spiritually and academically meaningful, powerful and important — is there a way to make this clear for people? Because I want to get this out there, right? So, the impetus was that, trying to make plain some of his arguments in a way that hadn’t really been the case before.

And so how we made that happen was I had to twist his arm into co-authoring the book with me to get him to sign off on it. And we ended up pitching the book to Wipf and Stock, and they picked it up.

What I’m hoping that readers will learn in the process of reading this book — it’s 300 pages, so it’s better than a thousand pages. And it’s accessibly written. It’s in fairly plain language. What I hope readers get out of this is getting more in touch with the God that Paul is proclaiming is revealed in Jesus Christ, who loves and cares for you, even while you were hostile to God, while you were sinful. As Paul says in Romans 5, that God loves you so much that God will never, ever give up on you ever, that love is unending.

So, the main goal of the book is to get people in touch with that reality, I think. Because I think it is reality. It’s the reality that structures everything. Now the subtitle or the title, Beyond Justification, is indicating a couple things, and I can run through these real quick.

Justification gets read in a certain way, traditionally, especially among Protestants; and it’s that you’ve been declared guilty by God because you failed to meet up to God’s expectations for you. So, God looks at you, basically, with a no. God says, no. God is upset with you. And so, God sends Jesus to deal with that problem that God has with you. Christ takes out basically what you deserve on Christ on the cross.

And then through faith alone, you can have access to the good stuff. Basically, God says yes to you finally. And you’re justified in that, through that faith in Jesus Christ. So, Christ steps in, gets what you deserve. You believe in that, you get the good stuff from Christ, and that’s what’s known as justification.

You’re declared righteous at that moment. So that’s the traditional story of justification. What we mean by beyond justification is that’s not really the whole story of what Paul’s doing. And in fact, that particularly retributive, contractual account of justification is exactly what he is arguing against in his gospel.

His gospel of justification is a gospel of life. Justification for him is so tightly connected to the resurrection in his text when he’s actually unpacking his own theology.

Okay, so we’re not unhappy with the word justification. We’re unhappy with the way that it’s been characterized and mobilized and used that kind of gets in the way of really getting in touch with the God of unconditional love.

So that’s what beyond justification is getting at.

[00:13:07] Anthony: Is it fair to say, Jon, that especially in the West, in the way that we have this judicial, legal sense of justification, that we focus our energies there in the church? And what gets lost in that is the beauty of, say, adoption? We’re always talking about justification, which like you said, is contractual, but we miss the covenantal relationship aspect of what the gospel is sharing with us.

Is that fair, and does that come out in your book in any way?

[00:13:40] Jon: That definitely comes out in the book for sure, and I think you’re exactly right. And I think part of the reason why justification has become so centered, or a certain reading of justification gets so centered, is because of the order that Paul’s letters are in our Bibles, to be honest.

Because in Romans, you do get justification language right off the top. And so, if you’re just reading Paul’s letter straight through, you’re probably going to think, yeah, Paul’s all about justification. But if we step back and think where is the center of Paul’s gospel truly? It is all about — you use the language of adoption — it’s all about being involved in a family with God, which is why Paul calls us adelphoi, brothers and sisters. We’re adopted brothers and sisters in a family of loving relationships of Father, Son, Spirit. That’s the heart of Paul, I think, that we need to get in touch with. And I think some of it has to do with the order of the ways that these are written and the ways that these letters have been handed to us.

And that gets solidified, I think, in the West, especially through the sort of western ordo salutis or order of salvation. I think that kind of gets in the way of really getting in touch with what Paul’s [saying].

[00:15:01] Anthony: Yeah. That’s well said. And often when I hear Romans talked about, it’s like we’re driving down the road and we make a pit stop at chapters 1-3 as if that completes the letter. But the letter continues to go and it’s like, where’s 5-8 in this? And chapter 5 is so astounding, and it’s amazing.

Oh, I have confidence that there’s going to be people listening to this that want to get the book. So where can they find it?

[00:15:40] Jon: You can go on Wipf and Stock’s website to order the book or you can go on Amazon as well. There’s now a hardcover version for those bibliophiles who like hardcover books.

[00:15:49] Anthony: It almost sounds like you say that with disdain.

[00:15:53] Jon: No, I want Wipf and Stock to send me one.

But yeah, so really anywhere you can order books, you’ll find it there.

[00:16:06] Anthony: Good. I encourage our readers and listeners to go out there and get it. We’ve been a fan of Douglas Campbell for some time. He’s been a guest on other platforms that we’ve had here. So yeah, that’s awesome.

Let’s move on to the lectionary passages. That’s why we’re here. So, we’ve got four lectionary texts we’re going to be looking at this month. The first passage of the month is Hebrews 9:11-14. I’m going to be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 26 in Ordinary Time, which is November 3.

But when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation), 12 he entered once for all into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of the ashes of a heifer sanctifies those who have been defiled so that their flesh is purified, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God!

Jon, let’s make this personal. Why? How does it matter to you that Jesus Christ is a greater high priest of the good things that have come?

[00:17:35] Jon: Yeah, this is a great question. And I tend to follow the Torrances on this. I’m sure you know who the Torrance’s are. It’s a family, great family of Scottish reformed theologians.

And here I would lean on one of the lesser known Torrances, James Torrance. Jamie Torrance, who’s the father of Alan and the grandfather of a young theologian, Andrew Torrance. Both Andrew and Alan were kind enough to read the book that I was just talking about, Beyond Justification, and endorse it, kindly. So, I like those guys a lot.

So Christ as the high priest, for someone like James (and I’ve learned a lot from him), Christ is the high priest, is someone who draws people into himself to be a royal priesthood themselves, where we participate in Christ’s priestly status and offer God our whole existence to serve him with heart, soul, mind, and strength.

So, Christ himself is the one true high priest, and this is the only way we’re able to become priestly ourselves, is in him. Without his priestly status as true God and true human, there would be no point of connection there between God and humanity.

So, the priestly status is getting at something so vital for Christians — that it’s only through his priestly status as the true God / human that we’re able to participate in him and therefore in the divine reality.

We would basically just be groping around in the dark without that mediation coming from that high priest who is Christ. So as J. B. Torrance would say, as the high priest Christ worships truly (so Christ is worshiping), we’re enabled to worship ourselves and respond faithfully to God’s will for us through our own ongoing discipleship.

So, Christ worships, in him, we worship, right? There’s that tight connection there. So, it’s significant and it matters because it is only the high priesthood of Christ that enables us to be Christians and to participate in his priesthood, in his worship. And it follows from that, his life, death and resurrection and ascension as well.

And so just a book recommendation here. I’d suggest checking out J. B. Torrance for listeners, J. B. Torrance’s Worship, Community, and the triune God of Grace. That’s been so helpful to me.

[00:20:24] Anthony: No, that’s good. Since you brought up J. B. Torrance, I want to share with you something he said in one of his final lectures to his class. He said,

What we need is not a new doctrine or clear doctrine of the Holy Spirit, we need the Holy Spirit. What we need is not a better Christology, what we need is Christ. What we need is not Trinitarian doctrine, but a relationship with the Trinity. And that is the difference.

And that’s what you’re getting at because Christ is high priesting (if I can turn it into a verb), in this moment, mediating. In this moment, we are participating in that love relationship of Father and Son and the fellowship of the Spirit. Hallelujah. It makes all the difference, right?

[00:21:09] Jon: Absolutely. Yeah. Without it, we’re just lost. We’re stumbling around in the dark.

[00:21:13] Anthony: Well said. What a bloody passage this is. Several mentions of blood and here’s the thing, blood, it’s paradoxical. Blood can mean death and life. It can mean sickness and therapeutic healing, demise and redemption, innocence and judgment. Jon, what should we make of this bloody passage?

[00:21:37] Jon: Yeah. I actually have been persuaded that blood — so we’ve got to remember that Hebrews, for example, is drawing on tons and tons of sacrificial material from the Old Testament sacrificial system. That’s really key to understanding what Hebrews is doing, how it’s using it.

I’ve been persuaded that I don’t think blood in the kind of temple system in the Tanakh or Old Testament or in Hebrews really is referring to death per se or judgment really. I think you’re right about life. And I would add freedom because we’ll get to a passage that has blood connected with freedom as well. My dear friend, Andrew Rillera, who’s a Duke grad, recently wrote a book [Douglas Campbell is co-author] called, Lamb of the Free: Recovering the Varied Sacrificial Understandings of Jesus’s Death, where he goes over a lot of the stuff. But he’s drawing on a lot of material from scholars like Jacob Milgram, Old Testament scholar, David Moffat.

And they’ve really helped me see things a bit more clearly, I think, than I had in the past. So based on their scholarship, and many others, here’s what I think is going on with blood in Hebrews 9 and 10. I think it’s actually functioning in a participatory way.

What do I mean by this? We need to read this verse in context. Within the sweep of Hebrews, we should look back to Hebrews 6:20, where Jesus is called the forerunner there, which cannot indicate that Jesus died instead of us. Instead, he’s dying ahead of us. His blood is something that’s going forward in front of us.

Forerunners don’t do something instead of you, they do something before you go through it, and you’re a part of that. So, what Christ does as the forerunner through his blood, is he’s going to be something that’s emphatically purgative. It’s cleansing; it’s removing all the things that sort of contaminate us.

So, I don’t think we should shy away from blood here based on maybe what we’ve been handed about how it functions in certain traditions of understanding more specifically, namely as a judgment, that we would otherwise deserve or something like that. That Christ’s blood is something that we should have gotten ourselves; we shouldn’t have shed blood instead of Christ. We should lean into it. I think that Christ’s blood cleanses us and purges us of impurity and ultimately liberates us, it gives us life, even in the midst of what seems like it’s going to end up in death, full stop.

The gospel, I think, says no to that understanding the idea that blood refers to death. Even in the Old Testament, sacrificial system, which (like I said, Hebrews draws on a lot), if we start by thinking that death is referring to, or that blood is referring to death, it’s going to get us off on the wrong foot, I think. The blood functions to purge, in this sense, a sort of heavenly sancta, as the beginning of the passage suggests, it’s not made of human hands, right?

This heavenly sanctum of impurities is not to substitute for a worshiper as a punishment that they would deserve, is to cleanse them, right? So, the logic is just completely different from blood referring to some sort of substitutionary death or something like that.

[00:25:28] Anthony: So unlike when I had to watch “Dexter,” and I looked away because of all the blood, this is where we can look to …

[00:25:29] Jon: We should look to the blood there. Yes. Freedom and life.

[00:25:30] Anthony: Yes. I appreciate what you said.

All right, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Hebrews 9:24-28. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 27 in Ordinary Time, which is November 10. Jon, would you read it for us, please?

[00:25:55] Jon: Yes. All right.

For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the holy place year after year with blood that is not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

[00:26:50] Anthony: So, it seems to me, this passage shines the light on the reality that on our behalf, the anointed One, intercessor, this high priest that you just spoke about is in the presence of God, the Father. And when we think about that, his ascension and his presence with the Father, we may think he’s away from us.

What impact does that have on my life today, on Wednesday? Is there an impact that it should have in our daily following of Christ?

[00:27:21] Jon: Yeah. This kind of gets back to the participatory stuff I’ve been talking about which I love to talk about, as you can probably tell.

[00:27:31] Anthony: And we love to hear about it.

[00:27:32] Jon: Yeah. It should take a lot of pressure off us to get things completely right all the time because we know that there is a high priest who intercedes for us. He’s doing something on our behalf that we can’t do ourselves. It pulls us out of this way of thinking about behaving that we’ve been handed contextually (especially as Western modern people) that we need to do everything and get it right all the time.

We should be able to — this should allow us to relax into the fact that Christ has done all of this wonderful, amazing work for us, and we get to participate in that here and now by responding to it and living our lives in a way that conforms to him and his priestly status as little priests ourselves, right?

So, I would hope, because there are so many anxious Christians, I think, running around thinking that we have to get things right all the time. Am I having enough faith? Am I doing enough good, right? This plagues so many people, I think.

[00:28:50] Anthony: Especially as you think back to the conversation we were having on your book to the first three chapters of Romans, that can be anxiety producing. Oh, yikes!

“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” How many times have we had that quoted to us? And it’s true, but we need to know the rest of the story, right? Is that what you’re speaking of?

[00:29:00] Jon: Totally. That’s totally right. And I hope that this gives — and liberation is something that I’m really keen on as well, not just participation, but being liberated to make mistakes. We’re going to screw things up sometimes and that’s okay. God isn’t going to retract himself from us. God isn’t going to abandon us.

[00:29:27] Anthony: You know my backstory, huh? We all have the backstory of that, of messing it up.

[00:29:32] Jon: Yeah, but you’re right. Reading certain passages in a certain way, especially something in Romans 1 to 3, is going to push us toward anxiety. The text kind of encourages that on its face, right?

We’ve sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We’ve made mistakes. We’re under the judgment of God. God’s wrath is on us, right? Of course, we’re going to feel guilty and horrible about that.

But what I think this account of Jesus’ high priestly status does for us is to say, you’re okay. You’re okay. You’re going to mess up. There is going to be accountability when we screw things up, right? But that’s a very different thing than thinking that, for example if you’re a child, your parent is going to abandon you. If you disobey them, your parent is just going to kick you out of the house forever.

With this account of the priestly status of Jesus as the one doing the stuff on our behalf is to say you’re in this close, intimate relationship with this person that’s been established from before all ages for you. That should give us the freedom, the liberty, right? The safety to be people who can mess up sometimes and go back to God with repentance and know for sure that God is not going to give up on you.

[00:31:01] Anthony: Yeah. Ah, that’s well said. And it reminds me when I go to my Father and confess my sins, I’m not seeking a new forgiveness, but reconnecting to the forgiveness I’ve always had in Christ. It’s a returning and a remembering into the life, the divine life of the Trinity.

That’s so powerful because — you again mentioned the Torrances. JB would always talk about. We can’t throw people back on themselves. And that’s what a contractual-style of relationship with God does because, oh what have you done for me lately and how have you messed things up today. And just knowing that we will not be abandoned.

I really appreciated what you said. Your parents don’t throw you out and they’re not better parents than God, the Father.

[00:31:54] Jon: Yeah. Which I think sometimes that’s how some of our theology works is that actually our families are turned out to be better than God. And we don’t want to do that. We don’t want to commit to that kind of theology. But yes, I think that (as Paul would say) God’s loving kindness is what leads us to repentance.

[00:32:13] Anthony: Yes.

[00:32:14] Jon: It’s not anything else.

[00:32:17] Anthony: Amen. Hallelujah.

The text informs us that when Christ appears a second time, he won’t be dealing with sin. That’s good news, right? What’s going on?

[00:32:27] Jon: Yeah, I think what the author of Hebrews is getting at here is that in Jesus’s second coming, it’s not going to be to deal with sin anymore because Christ’s sacrifice is something that’s universally sufficient once for all. I think that’s the key point that the author’s trying to drive home there.

So what’s being emphasized with the second coming is that because what Christ has done is sufficient once for all, when he arrives again, it’s just going to be to bring this sort of heavenly sancta, this heavenly sanctuary type thing, to us who are still alive, namely those who are eagerly awaiting his return.

So, there’s nothing more that sort of needs to be added on to what Christ has already done. So, I think that’s the distinction here. The reason why Christ isn’t coming back to deal with sin anymore for the author of Hebrews is because that’s already been dealt with. We don’t need to worry about that.

That’s dealt with. What needs to be done for the author is Christ bringing this. “heavenly cleanse sancta” to people awaiting.

[00:33:28] Anthony: Yeah, that seems to be an ongoing theme in Hebrews, the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ. There’s nothing to add on. There’s nothing you can bring to God’s table to make it better.

It’s good and it’s done. And let’s respond and liberate and as we join him in what he’s doing, in the activity.

[00:34:13] Jon: That’s exactly right. I think that once we’ve removed kind of your contractual theology (which I like that way of talking about this negative kind of gospel), once we’re freed from that way of viewing things, these texts become much more clear and they become much more powerful for us, right?

Because now what it says is that Christ has done something for you once and for all. You don’t have to contract into this in order for God to love you in Christ, right? That’s already established. Once we removed all the damaging sort of trappings of a contractual, conditional gospel, we’re able to be confronted with this wonderful inclusive, liberative gospel that’s been there all along, but we’ve just kind of missed it a lot of the time.

[00:34:44] Anthony: And therefore, we end up, we don’t have to respond. We want to, it’s just like when you love somebody, you want to lean into that relationship.

[00:34:53] Jon: Yeah, that’s right.

[00:34:54] Anthony: But trusting that — like even repentance (which you mentioned earlier), if it were dependent on my repentance, Jon, it’s puny, it’s anemic. But Jesus’ repentance on my behalf and for me as the man, the forerunner, the vicarious man, he’s done it, and his efforts are enough. And so therefore I do want to repent. I want to say, Hey, ah I want to change my mind on that.

[00:35:25] Jon: That’s right. And it’s such a different logic than this idea that we need to be threatened with something in order to behave well. If there’s not some sort of impending doom that we’re facing, then we can’t want to be involved with God.

No, we want to be involved with God because he is the bringer of life and brings us into this reality that’s all around us. And when we respond to that it’s because we really want to. This is what we’ve been created for, as people, is to be responding to Christ and involved in, as you had said, adopted into this loving family.

[00:36:05] Anthony: Yeah. Wow. Gospel’s good, friends! It turns out it

[00:36:12] Jon: It turns out it is good news. Yes.

[00:36:16] Anthony: Yes, It is good news. Yes. Full stop. Full stop.

Our third pericope of the month is Hebrews 10:11-25. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 28 in Ordinary Time, which is November 17, and it reads:

And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, “he sat down at the right hand of God,” 13 and since then has been waiting “until his enemies would be made a footstool for his feet.” 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds,” 17 and he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

19 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain (that is, through his flesh), 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

So, Jon, let’s do a bit of theology here as we talk about sanctification. Verse 14 appears to tell us that Christ has already perfected those who are sanctified. And yet generally, when I hear about sanctification, it’s about the ongoing process of sanctification.

So, my question is it both/and? Or is it reading too much into a single verse or what is it entirely? Help us understand the nature of sanctification.

[00:38:39] Jon: Yeah, sure. In a certain sense, yeah, it’s a both / and.

And from the point of view of our perception in this fallen reality, because we said we’re not perfect in our experience (that’s just empirically true), it appears and is experienced as a process for us in our everyday lives. That’s how we experience it. But the more meaningful reality, I think, objectively is Jesus Christ and what he’s doing.

So, his perfection (I think that’s what Hebrews is getting at), his perfection is our perfection breaking in now, but not fully realized as people still constructed of flesh. We’re still in the flesh until the final consummation of all things when our flesh will be removed, and we’ll get this, what’s known as the soma pneumatikon, the spiritual bodies, right?

And that happens the final consummation of all things when God will be all in all. So, in reality, in the most fundamental sense, we are perfected because Christ is the most fundamental thing about reality. What Christ says about who we are is the most true thing. We have been transformed. We have been raised and seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father.

So, it’s helpful to think about these things in terms of overlapping realities from our point of view, we have one foot in the muck and mire and then one foot in the new transformed reality in Christ. And because we’re still in the flesh, because we’re still involved in this fallen reality, that’s how we experience it. But the most true thing about us is what Christ is saying about us, which is that we are perfected, and that will be fully realized from our point of view in the age to come.

A great work on this would be Jeff McSwain’s on simul sanctification. I think he does a wonderful job explaining this, pulling on Barth and adapting that in certain ways. But that’s how this passage strikes me and how to make sense of it.

[00:40:52] Anthony: Yeah. And just thinking about Barth, I remember his quote. “I was, and I am the old man. I am and I will be the new man.” And I think that speaks to sanctification that what is objectively true, nothing’s going to change that we have been perfected in Christ. And yet in my day-to-day journey, I can see growth. I can see letting down old habits by the Spirit. And both can be true at the same time.

So, I think that’s really helpful, especially there’s so much talk about backsliding in the evangelical church sometimes, to just remember what is already objectively true, what’s already been accomplished for us in Christ.

[00:41:43] Jon: Totally. And I think one way to illustrate this, (that I’ve learned from Jeremy Begbie, who is at Duke; he’s a musician as well as a theologian) is trying to …

[00:42:00] Anthony: And a previous podcast guest. If I may say so.

[00:42:01] Jon: (Oh, nice! Good. I love Jeremy.) … is trying to step into the world of music here, auditory stuff, instead of — we tend to be locked up into kind of visual understanding. So, overlaps don’t really make a lot of sense to us in the [inaudible] because you can’t have two physical objects actually overlap in the same space at the same time, right?

What can do that is actually music. So, if I were to play a, I don’t know, I hate to use death metal as the music of Satan or the fallen world because I love metal. But I’m just, for the sake of this illustration, I could play, if we’re in the same room, I could play a piece of metal music. And that would fill our entire heard space, right?

It would fill all of our auditory space at the same time in the same space. I could play. I don’t know, pick your favorite song, but what should we use?

[00:43:05] Anthony: You know what? I’m a child of the ‘80s, so let’s go “Safety Dance.”

[00:43:10] Jon: Okay. “Safety Dance” is the music of Christ.

[00:43:15] Anthony: I’m really going to be embarrassed. Thanks, Jon, for asking.

[00:43:19] Jon: That’s awesome. So, the “Safety Dance” is the music of Christ. I could start playing that on a different device, right? It would fill our auditory or heard space at the same time that this metal music is playing, right? There’s no real competition in terms of the heard space. They’re existing in the same space at the same time.

We can hear both of them simultaneously, right? One may be louder than the other, right? Like I could blast metal music, and we could play the “Safety Dance” a little bit lower, you can still hear it, right?

So, what it means to be a Christian in our journey of discipleship is trying to get in tune with the “Safety Dance.”

[00:44:03] Anthony: This conversation is going places. I should have said “Enter Sandman” or something.

[00:44:11] Jon: Does that make sense? I think the world of music can get us to understanding how we exist in this overlapping space. And eventually, what happens is the metal music, in the final consummation of all things, it’s no more. Finally. It’s no more.

[00:44:30] Anthony: Oh, that’s so good. I’ve heard Dr. Begbie do several presentations and just play different notes and the beauty of it, but how it works together. They are entirely different when they’re played, but they’re harmonized. It is such a rich way of looking at theology because we tend to be dualistic.

It’s either this or that. And that’s caused so many problems when we think about God. So, to think of it in more of a holistic harmonization is, that’s the way to go.

[00:44:59] Jon: It’s so helpful with thinking about Trinitarian theology, thinking about the hypostatic union as well, thinking about human freedom in relation to God. There’s so many awesome things to tap into in the world of music. So yeah.

[00:45:15] Anthony: Yeah. All right, Jon’s a metal fan, just note to self and keep that in mind as we move forward.

I’d be grateful if you would exegete verses 23 – 25. What does it mean to hold fast to our confession of hope? And maybe just in a practical way, what does it look like to provoke one another to love and good deeds and not neglecting to meet together? Is there a strict way of reading this? Is there more? What’s going on?

[00:45:51] Jon: I think what’s happening here in Hebrews is, especially with the — I’m going to start backwards, starting with the meet together thing. I think there is something wonderful about the way that we’ve been constituted as people; we are fundamentally relational because we’re made in the image of a relational God.

And when we shy away from meeting together — this meaning here, I think “meeting together” in worship context. When we resist that a bit too much, we’re not really living in the way that we’ve been created to live. We’ve been created to be in communion with each other, to meet together.

And that can be difficult. I’m an introvert. I don’t particularly like meeting new people all the time. But I know at the same time, the way I’ve been created is to be in community, to be in relationship. And when we offer ourselves into those spaces of relationship and especially relationships of trust and love, together we become more of who we actually have been created to be. We lean into that.

And I think that’s so important for us, even those of us with certain different personalities and different dispositions, different temperaments. It can be more difficult for some people than others. But I think it’s important at the end of the day.

And I think Hebrews is getting at that provoking one another to love and good deeds, do good deeds. I’m not quite sure how to exegete that language of provoking in a particular way. I think this could be read in lots of different ways. I think provoking could mean, by the way that we’re loving somebody else, by the way that we’re loving one another that could, by the act of doing that, provoke someone else to live in that same sort of way.

Someone could resonate with that. We’re creatures who like to imitate each other, right? We’re creatures who like to emulate what others are doing when we see good things happening, right? And so, I think that’s probably what’s going on here is that we, by the way we live, we can provoke others to do the same sort of thing by how we live, how we speak, how we interact with people.

And this is a good way of thinking about sort of witness to other people, right? It’s not just persuasion. It’s also just by the way that we ourselves are loving and communicating with each other, holding fast to our confession of hope. This is hard, right? It’s probably just as hard as loving people that you don’t particularly like at the moment. Hope’s hard, especially in this world that we live in.

We look around. You read the news; it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of hope for us. It’s hard. But given that (as we were talking about) we live in this overlapping reality, the most fundamental of which is Christ, holding on to the confession of hope is going to be holding on to that fundamental reality, even when it looks like it’s not there, even when we can barely hear the “Safety Dance,” even when we can barely hear the music of Christ, we know that it’s there and we’re trying to get in tune with that.

So, I think that’s what holding fast to it means. It’s trying to turn up the volume on that music of Christ. And that will lead to ultimately informing how we relate to one another in love. And that will inform of course, our desire, our draw to meet and to be in communion with each other.

So, I think all these are connected, which is why I started the opposite way around.

[00:50:00] Anthony: Yeah. I liked the way you tied it together because there are times when I show up in a space of adopted brothers and sisters where I don’t feel like I’m holding much of anything. And I certainly don’t feel like I have much to provoke others to love and good deeds, but their testimony, they’re bearing witness to the goodness of God helps me hold fast.

So, it’s very much — just scripture itself, we tend to think sometimes me and my Bible, but it’s communal. It’s meant to be read aloud in the body. It’s very much about the communion of the saints and our confession together.

[00:50:53] Jon: And Hebrews here isn’t talking about specifically the Holy Spirit, but the thing that binds us together, again, it’s not something we do.

We have [inaudible] intercessory figure who comes in and binds us together. It’s the Holy Spirit that does this. So, we shouldn’t come into a communal space thinking, Oh, just because I’m having a really crappy day, I can’t be engaged in communion with the people around me.

We have to trust in the reality that’s connecting all of us together. Even when I’m having a bad day, or even when I really, really don’t want to be there, because sometimes I really don’t want to be around people, that something is at work already, drawing us together.

[00:51:36] Anthony: Yes. Yeah, that’s good because even when you’re having that bad day, we have to remember our presence matters. Your absence, my absence, it makes the community not nearly what it would have been if I’d been there, even on a bad day. So that’s really [inaudible].

[00:51:58] Jon: And that, that just goes back to how we’ve

been created as people. We’re created, we are constituted by our attachments, by our loves, by people, even people we don’t really know, they constitute who we are. Which is a weird thing, especially in our modern Western context, where we think of ourselves as discrete individual subjects, but that is not true.

That is actually a lie. It is a lie that keeps getting spread, that we are autonomous individuals. We are not; we are connected beings.

[00:52:35] Anthony: And boy, how this world would look different if we understood that we belong to one another.

Friends, we’re in the homestretch. We’re at our final pericope of the month. It’s Revelation 1:4-8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Reign of Christ Sunday, which is on November 24. Jon, read it for us, please.

[00:53:01] Jon: Sure.

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

[00:54:04] Anthony: Amen. And amen. So, if you were preaching this passage to a congregation, your congregation, what would be the focus of your proclamation?

[00:54:11] Jon: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I think I would center in on verse 5. That’s the crux of what I would want to teach about. Of course this could change. I tend to not be too rigid in terms of preparation when I am preaching because sometimes things change. Something’s going on in the community that would change the focus that I would put on it, a certain text, sometimes world events would, all of that.

But just strictly for this exercise, I think verse 5 with the “faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood.”

I think getting into the blood stuff here could be an interesting sermon. Because this is a way to shift how we think about blood because if people have been schooled in this negative understanding of what blood is, that it’s death, that it’s judgment, that it’s this bad, ultimately bad thing — honing in on that blood is actually liberative. What’s going on there is freeing us.

It’s not something that happens to Christ instead of us, right? But that what Christ does as our forerunner, through his blood, is free us. And digging into what that freedom could look like for the community, I think that would be a starting point for me, to think about how to preach this to a congregation

[00:56:02] Anthony: As I’m rereading verse 5, thinking of it as a crux. There’s so much good news shoehorned in there. He is the faithful witness. He is the faithful forerunner, firstborn. He is the faithful ruler. We have so many bad rulers. He’s the faithful one. He loves us. And he doesn’t hold us captive. He freed us. There’s just so much to unearth there in a proclamation heralding of the gospel.

And that really does tie into the question I wanted to ask you next. It’s in terms of liturgical calendar, it’s known as Reign of Christ Sunday or Christ the King Sunday. And we’re recording this episode in September. We’ve got a national presidential election coming up in the U.S.

Just last night, there was a presidential debate. And so, for those listening, prior to that national election, how might the reign of Christ inform us about politics in our lives? Here’s a big one: the way we view people who vote differently than we do? And even the outcome of the election?

I just because that’s on our minds. And you even talked about you adapt the message sometimes. Always from the text, but how it informs what’s happening around us. So, what would you have to say about this?

[00:57:26] Jon: All right. So, you want me to get into this? With hesitation, I will, but I’m not really going to beat around the bush here.

I am both sick of Christian nationalist agendas where it becomes a kind of civic religion, right? I think I can be clear about that.

And I think just as much as I am, the sort of political quietism, or even kind of fideism where it becomes balkanized that results from what’s become a popular Christian slogan: Jesus is Lord; therefore, Caesar is not. Okay, that’s true. Jesus is Lord. The kingdoms of the world are not the Lord in the same way that Christ is. Caesar’s not God. Our presidential candidates aren’t God.

But the payoff, I think, of this other option — not Christian nationalism, but this sort of “Oh, Jesus is Lord, therefore Caesar is not; I can step back a little bit and not worry too much about the politics of the world because God’s in charge. Christ is in charge,” which is true. But it can take us in a couple different directions that worry me a bit. It can lead to one assuming this sort of “both side-ism,” which is different from loving your neighbor. It’s just saying that all these options are equally true or good or understandable.

And this “both sided-ism” is what Jesus really wants. Which tends to just re-inscribe a certain kind of — I mean this in a nonpartisan way, it leads to a sort of re-inscribing of conservatism in a way that says things can’t really change. Okay. That is, Jesus just looks like the sort of average citizen of a modern liberal democracy. Okay.

Secondly, it can lead to a kind of superiority complex, I think, where engagement in real political action in this world, can be looked down on because what really matters is this immaterial kingdom of God; what really matters is that. So, we don’t actually need to concern ourselves with real material realities.

I think that can happen, but we can trick ourselves into thinking that’s what the gospel is about. What I want to alert us to and point us to, in my witness is: what does Jesus, this high priest, talk about all over the Gospels? He talks about money. He talks about material realities of people. He talks about marginalized people. He talks about the poor. If our politics aren’t reflecting a basic concern for the material realities of ourselves and our neighbors, we’re not going to see Jesus there.

Let me say that again, because I really want to make this clear. If our politics aren’t reflecting a basic concern for the material realities of our neighbors, we’re not going to see Jesus there — because that’s what Jesus is concerned with. Always test our political thinking and action in the light of Christ and his concern for the poor and the oppressed.

Now this can open up different options for you. It’s not just saying, Oh, you have to be a socialist to be a follower of Christ, which some people say. I have no time for that either. But what Jesus alerts us to is being concerned with the material realities, the economic realities, the family realities of our neighbors. That needs to drive our political thinking!

We can disagree about how that works out. But if there’s something that occludes, if there’s a political position, or policy, or running platform, that occludes that way of thinking about things, I can’t, in good conscience, be a part of that. I can’t, because I’m trying to get everything — I’m trying to do what Paul would say, to bring everything captive, every thought, even political thought, captive to Christ.

So that’s a starting point. I don’t want to tell people how to vote, any of that sort of stuff, but that’s the starting point, I think.

Now in terms of relating to people who disagree with you, this is tricky, right? I have family members who disagree with me on politics. I have friends who disagree with me on political stuff. What’s important there is you don’t always have to talk about that stuff with them. Normally, the arguments tend to be online or like when you’re not around the person in person, and you’re talking to them.

But when you do engage with someone, you should do so out of a Christ-like way. We have the mind of Christ. So how does Christ interact with people he disagrees with? He can get angry. He can be pretty harsh, but he never gives up or lets go of someone else just because they disagree with him. Anger is okay.

[01:03:47] Anthony: That’s right. And it’s one of the reasons I don’t engage on social media in the political world and other controversial topics because it’s not relational. I mean it can be; I understand that but there are massive limitations.

And it’s amazing how people can bow up when they’re not face to face with you. I’ve heard people call them Twitter muscles, where you just coming in hard and strong about a subject, but it’s meant to be in relationship, always.

[01:04:22] Jon: So, I would say in terms of disagreements, treat it like any other sort of disagreement. The way to do that is if you have a relationship of trust with someone, you can be real with them about how you’re feeling and about how much you disagree with them. And it can be tense, and it’s going to be because you disagree, probably fundamentally about certain things in politics, right?

But it’s knowing that you’re in a relationship of trust with them, that they constitute who you are, as well, even if you disagree, and you constitute who they are. Love is a part of that too, a huge part.

I wanted to try to be as precise as I could, not beat around the bush, but also bring this back to how we need to be thinking about this in the light of Christ. Always.

[01:05:28] Anthony: Absolutely and I appreciate you going on this thought journey with me because you can’t escape it. The last few national elections, it’s been tough in churches. It’s been very tough on pastors because they’re trying to hold things together when people have really different viewpoints.

And my thinking on it, and this is a very general statement, I really want to be conservative on the traditions and orthodoxy, that we hold fast to our confession of Christ, and I want to be liberal in love.

Like you said, Jesus’ work is comprehensive, and it informs everything that we do, and we see and how we act. As we look on in this passage, thanks be to God. I hear what you’re saying, even as he is Lord, it doesn’t mean that there’s not an impact in our day to day living.

But thanks be to God that he is out in the Alpha and the Omega. He’s the end. He’s the telos. And it makes me think of what Julian Norwich said, “The end is good. So, if it’s not good, it’s not the end.” And as painful as it is right now, and as difficult as these conversations are, and I’m not trying to do escapism here, just thanks be to God that he is the king.

[01:06:46] Jon: And because that should frame how we’re thinking about these things, that ultimate reality. It doesn’t give us a cop out. It frames it, and it should lead us to engaging in the best possible way that we can as Christians.

[01:07:01] Anthony: Yeah. Amen. And amen.

Hey man, we’re just meeting for the first time. I really like you.

[01:07:05] Jon: I like you, too.

[01:07:05] Anthony: I’m thankful for you. I feel so grateful for this conversation. So, thanks for saying yes to something you didn’t really know much about, this podcast. It’s been just an enriching conversation, and I hope that you found joy in the process.

And I also want to thank our team that makes this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, our podcast producer, the editor, the one that makes it all sound good. Elizabeth Mullins, the transcriber who captures the fact that I said “Safety Dance” was the song of choice. Oh, I can’t believe that’s going to be documented to live in infamy.

[01:07:40] Jon: Heck yeah. And that rules; you should just stand by it, man.

[01:07:41] Anthony: Oh man, I just listened to it recently and that’s why it came to my mind. It’s synthesized. I just feel horrible about that.

And then Michelle Hartman, who’s our leader of the team. She does such a great job. Those. So, thank you, one and all, for your efforts.

And Jon, again, thank you for being here. As is our tradition on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. So, if you would, pray for our listening audience.

[01:08:06] Jon: Absolutely.

Gracious God, thank you for this time to spend with Anthony and to talk about these lectionary texts, to go through them. We ask that what has been said is pleasing to you, and we trust that you intercede for us, and that you have been present with us. Even through these microphones, through our computers, through the internet, we trust that you’re present.

And we are so thankful that you have provided us with a wonderful space and platform to be able to talk to one another about important ideas. And namely about the most important thing, which is Jesus Christ. The one through whom you revealed yourself most fully. The one who never gives up or lets go of anybody ever.

It’s irrevocable, your commitment to us. And we thank you for that. It’s the most precious gift that you are present with us in him. I also pray for those listening to this, that through our conversation, that you would speak a good word to them and to comfort them, to challenge them and to bring them deeper into the truth of God — that is your Son, Jesus Christ. And it’s in his name we pray. Amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

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Jared Neusch—Year B Propers 22-25

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it brings me delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Jared Neusch. Jared is a research assistant and project manager for the McDonald Agape Nicaea Project at St. Mellitus College. He earned a PhD in New Testament at King’s College in London, and his research interests include apocalyptic readings of Paul (that’d be a great episode), hermeneutics, and Christian passivism.

Although he’s American, Jared now lives in England with his wife and their three children. Jared, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d love to know a little bit about you, your personal story, and how you’re joining Jesus in his ministry these days.

[00:01:36] Neusch: Hey, thank you so much, Anthony. It’s great to meet you. And yeah, I’m really honored to be on the podcast. This sounded really fun, and it’s a privilege to be here. So, thanks for having me. And yeah, very happy to tell you a bit about myself.

As my accent gave away, I am American. I was raised in the South in Texas. So, I’m a Texas boy. I spent several years in pastoral church ministry when I reached adulthood, and my desire growing up was very much I want to be a church leader and lead a church ministry. But I ended up pursuing a Master of Divinity on the side of my job at the church, and I ended up falling in love with the academic side of things.

And so, then I finished that and began to explore PhD programs from there. And I ended up landing with one of your previous guests on the podcast, Dr. Chris Tilling. He was my supervisor for my PhD through King’s College London. Great guy, so I encourage listeners to check out that episode. It’s got a lot of great stuff to say.

So, my family and I made the sudden move to England. And we’ve been living here ever since for about five years. In terms of what I’m doing now I’m on the faculty of college in central London. Actually, you mentioned it. I’m working at St. Mellitus College and currently helping to project manage something to celebrate the 1700 year anniversary of Nicaea. That’s coming up next year.

But yeah, in terms of teaching, I teach a bit of Greek and New Testament, bits and pieces there. And then obviously the biggest and happiest part of my life is that I’m a husband and proud dad to three kids, eight, six, and three.

I guess, just as the last thing, this relates to another iron that I have it in the fire. I became a kid’s author with my good friend, Connor Shram, a few years ago. And we recently published a kid’s book series through Tyndale. And the first one is called Jesus Versus the Bad Guys. And we explore the question of how Jesus overcomes evil. And it’s aimed at introducing kids to Jesus as the radical forgiver, as the peacemaker, and an enemy lover.

Raising my kids, that’s one of the gaps I really felt and saw as I read books to them. There’s a lot of key bits that are presented about Jesus, but I thought man, I really want to bring out this enemy loving, peacemaking, nonviolent side of Jesus that we don’t often get enough of.

That’s a bit about me — a spattering of the various pieces of my world at the moment.

[00:04:45] Anthony: It’s fascinating to hear that you’ve written children’s books and the topics — wow! I have a feeling there’s going to be listeners that are like, where do I get this? Can you tell us where we can find the books if listeners would like to purchase?

[00:05:00] Neusch: Yeah, sure. And it totally was not a plan to begin with a plug for our product, but it’s a part of my world.

Anthony: It’s quite all right. I’m glad you did.

Jared: Yeah, so you can get it pretty much anywhere. If you just Google Jesus Versus the Bad Guys, it’ll be on Amazon and hopefully lots of local bookshops, as well. But it’s a three-part series, and the second book should be coming out next year. And yeah, we’re excited about it. Thanks for asking.

[00:05:30] Anthony: Absolutely. Jared, as we get into the content of our episode today, we’re going to be looking exclusively at the book of Hebrews, this beautiful, wonderful, and sometimes controversial text. So, context really matters. As we like to say, a text without a context can lead to a pretext of a proof text.

So, help enrich our understanding of the text. What context would you like to share that will help our preachers and teachers herald these texts?

[00:06:04] Neusch: Yeah. Great setup. One of the very, very unique things about Hebrews as a New Testament letter is that we don’t know the author, and this is rare in the New Testament.

And so, this makes date and historical context a bit of a trickier matter than, say, something like Romans where it’s explicit who’s writing, who is being written to, and what’s going on there. But not having the author again, we then have to be a bit more of a detective and try to figure out what’s going on and what the context is.

Just some interesting information. This was originally received — I say originally — in some of the early church, it was received as a Pauline letter. It was grouped with other Pauline letters in early Greek manuscripts. And so, we can see that they treated it that way for at least a time.

But then we began to find church fathers, like Origen, stating that the ideas were Pauline in general, but not necessarily the author itself was Paul. One of the reasons that we now are confident it’s not Pauline is the uniqueness of the Koine Greek that was used. It’s — I find this fascinating — it’s one of, without a doubt, the best and most beautifully written Koine Greek letters in the whole of the New Testament.

It’s really unique. It’s got poetic style and portions, short punchy sentences, in others, rapid questions, things like that. And even the vocabulary is just incredibly robust. It’s got I think 150 words not found anywhere else in the whole New Testament. So, when you’re looking at Paul’s corpus and then you look over at Hebrews, if you’re a Greek scholar, you’re like, oh, wow, this is cut from a different cloth.

And so, we can now know, hey, sure, there may be some Pauline concepts here, but we don’t think he was the author — and even things like not having a traditional Pauline introduction, like a greeting or thanksgiving. But it is a letter. And we do get some of the epistolary bits, especially at the end, talking about Timothy and stuff.

But in terms of date. Again, we don’t know for sure, of course, but many think probably in the 45 to 70 AD range cause there’s no mention of the destruction of the temple, which leads people to think it’s probably written just before that, just before that occurred in 70.

And then in terms of audience, we don’t have an overt mention of, it is this church in this location with these people. But the author does assume a really in depth understanding of the Torah from the readers. There’s an assumption that they understand the sacrificial system and Levitical laws and all of these things. And so, because of this, probably correct assumption is that the audience are Jewish Christians.

Hence the name of the book Hebrews. And it seems like these Jewish Christians were experiencing persecution and hardship. And so, in general, the letter is aiming to encourage these believers to remain steadfast and to really persevere in their faith, despite the various difficulties they seem to be facing, and maybe the temptation, as well, to revert to Judaism and abandon their faith in Christ.

So again, that helps explain some of the direction that the Hebrew author has gone in their text. So that’s a bit of the context and some of the best we can do without knowing who exactly the author is.

[00:09:58] Anthony: Through the years, Jared, I’ve heard maybe Apollos or Junia. Of course, there are those that still subscribe to the idea that Paul had written Hebrews. If I were to press in on you and ask you, who do you think it is? And I know it’s just speculation, but who do you think wrote it and why?

[00:10:16] Neusch: I will be explicit that I have no secret knowledge on this.

And you shouldn’t take what I’m saying to the bank at all. But I at least just like the idea that a woman wrote it. That to me seems fun. And it’s a kind of a fun idea to run with in terms of the kind of thing that the church would do, as inspired by the Spirit, to demonstrate the value for the female voice.

So, I am inclined to be persuaded by whoever it would be, Junia or Phoebe or someone like that. But I, of course, have no way of knowing that for sure.

[00:11:02] Anthony: That was an unfair question, but I appreciate you going along with me.

All right, let’s do this. Let’s dive into the lectionary texts, which we will be discussing for this month. Our first passage of the month is Hebrews 1:1-4, 2:5-12. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 22 in Ordinary Time, which falls on October 6.

Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

5 Now God did not subject the coming world, about which we are speaking, to angels. 6 But someone has testified somewhere, “What are humans that you are mindful of them or mortals that you care for them? 7 You have made them for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned them with glory and honor, 8subjecting all things under their feet.” Now in subjecting all things to them, God left nothing outside their control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to them, 9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. 10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, 12 saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you.”

So, Jared, what are your insights on the high Christology found in Hebrews 1:1-4? And how should it inform our understanding of God and Scripture?

[00:13:38] Neusch: It’s really quite a profound thing that the author says here to open this letter. It’s a really, really important start to this letter that helps us understand a lot of what’s going on here.

So, this author says for a long time, God spoke to us through a variety of ways by the prophets. But in these days, he now speaks to us by his Son. And then the author goes on to clarify how the son is the exact imprint of God’s being. And I don’t think it’s a mistake that there is a clarification of how this new way of God speaking carries the exact imprint.

There’s a suggestion there about the previous representations of God, if this new way is the exact imprint. So this speaks to the clarity. And one might even say the absolute reliability of God’s message now through the Son. And in short, I think this is saying Jesus is the supreme way God speaks.

And I find this text to be a beautiful companion to John 1. And versus 17 – 18 come to mind; obviously the whole chapter is great. (And I can hear you saying, yes.) So, it says the law indeed was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

And then just the author of Hebrews does same here, John then goes on to talk about the Son’s ability to represent God in a way that no one else has been able to. So then verse 18, no one has ever seen God. It is the only Son himself, God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. So, in both John 1 and here in Hebrews, there’s this sense of, hey, God has — sure he has spoken in these other ways and it’s beautiful. And it’s certainly a part of the story. And then there’s almost okay, the pin drops here. And it’s now he has spoken through his Son, and he clarifies: and the Son is the one that is truly, with absolute clarity, the highest resolution image of God that we’ve ever seen.

And so, there are some implications here. So Christologically, we get a message of hermeneutical priority. And what I mean by that — for there might be a spectrum of listeners here who have different experience with theology — but that just means in terms of interpreting Scripture, Christ takes center stage in directing that. And we have heard from God through some mediums, but now we have heard through the Son, who is the exact imprint.

And so, this is the highest, again, the highest resonance image we have. And so, Christ is the supreme hermeneutic when reading the scriptures the supreme interpretive ethic.

And although the revelation of Christ, in some ways, it seems to build upon what came before, but it is, nevertheless, also the beginning of the story and it is superior. And it is the center. So, I guess to summarize that Jesus is superior to all the ways God has previously revealed himself.

And so, our readings of Scripture should reflect that whatever else we might come across in reading Scripture about God and how he may be presented or represented in certain ways, the revelation of Christ must stand as the highest order of truth through which we filter all other revelation, all other depictions and images of God.

It must be our hermeneutical North. And I think that is a key thing here that this is how the author starts Hebrews, and it sets the tone for us.

[00:18:02] Anthony: I appreciate what you said about him being the highest hermeneutical ethic. Since it is about him, he is our true North, our starting point.

He is the hermeneutical key for all of Scripture.

And yet Jared, often when I hear preaching, it doesn’t start with him. It starts with us. Or I hear instead of exegesis, sometimes eisegesis. And I’m just curious. I didn’t plan to ask you this, but you, I know, love hermeneutics. So, what would you say to preachers, as a guide, to help them know that when I come to a text, I want to have the highest Christology, the highest hermeneutical ethic as possible.

Any steps, any guidance that you would provide to preachers and teachers in that way?

[00:18:52] Neusch: I mean, even your question is instructive for these preachers and teachers to make sure that they are keeping Jesus as central. And I think it goes down to the very center of how we understand the gospel.

And we probably won’t get into this in this podcast, but you mentioned at the beginning apocalyptic readings of Paul. And in short, that is readings of Paul that most centrally account for the impact of the revelation of Christ on Paul and the apocalypse or the revelation of Christ is central for Paul.

And it’s the beginning of the story for Paul. And it helps him make sense of the whole grand narrative of Scripture, but it begins with the revelation of Christ. Because as you rightly said, if we begin various theological explorations with a problem or sin, some of these other things or our story, then — it’s very subtle, and we often don’t even know we’re doing it — but we are framing the rest of what then comes, we are conditioning and contextualizing Christ in our story or in our problem. And then he appears as a bit of a cameo in something else that’s going on. And so, then the sin or the problem or the issue or our life or our story, helps make sense of Christ rather than the other way around. It’s the revelation of Christ that helps us truly understand what the sin problem was, helps us truly understand the narrative that we were in, and all these other things.

So, I think, yeah, to preachers and teachers, I think it’s a constant journey, but I think returning over and over to these key texts like John 1 or Hebrews, of course, the Gospels in general, to keep Jesus as the center and as the human, as the hermeneutical priority in Scripture.

And maybe this would be also a good checkpoint as well. If we’ve developed a sermon, and we’ve got bullet points at the end. And we see, I’ve done these three things that I’m communicating as maybe some sort of principle or guide or something, they need to be clearly consistent with what God has revealed in Christ by the Spirit. So, it needs to be incarnational. It needs to reflect Jesus. It can’t be at odds with what God has revealed about himself in Christ. Otherwise, we’re in some sketchy waters.

[00:21:42] Anthony: Oh, that is really helpful. And I hadn’t even considered maybe those bullet point, keys at the end of a sermon, but they still have to reflect the truth of what God has revealed in Jesus Christ. And it’s certainly as J. B. Torrance would say, can’t throw people back on themselves to work this all out without the work of the Spirit. Thank you for that.

Is there anything else from this text that you would want to shine the spotlight on for preachers and teachers in helping them prepare this Sunday’s sermon?

[00:22:18] Neusch: Yeah, I think I would want to maybe just to reemphasize that our theology is grounded in Jesus. So, I would want to communicate the reliability of Jesus to show us the Father, not just a part of the Father and not just, oh, this revelation of Christ clearly shows us this, but we have this competing idea in a different place. That’s just as equal, just as good, just as high.

Jesus is God’s supreme self-revelation by the Spirit. And so, this must make a difference in how we read the Old Testament. Not to be gloomy or negative here, but I do sometimes think our interpretations of the Old Testament wouldn’t change that much whether or not we had the story of Jesus dying on the cross.

We’d still say, oh wow, look at how great David was and look at this courage and look at the wisdom of Solomon, and look at Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son. All these things are great. And sometimes they have a nod to Christ. Oh, this looks Jesus being sacrificed. Or oh, David killing Goliath looks like Jesus defeating our enemies. And that’s a cool reflection, but it doesn’t go deep enough.

And I think it has to mean something for our interpretation of the scriptures that God has revealed himself in Jesus. And I think it sometimes requires radical readings and re-readings like we see the apostle Paul doing. And I think we need to be willing to be pushed a bit further by the revelation of Christ. And I think, yeah, Jesus is not just one section of our systematic theology, cordoned off in the Christology section. The incarnation is the cornerstone, the fountainhead of our theology as a whole.

I think I would just really want to emphasize that.

[00:24:32] Anthony: That’s a good word for all of us who have the privilege and the responsibility to teach. So, thank you, Jared.

Let’s move on to our next passage of the month. It’s Hebrews 4:12-16. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 23 in Ordinary Time, which is October 13. Jared, I’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:25:03] Neusch:

Indeed, the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.14 Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

[00:25:55] Anthony: It seems to me Christians generally understand the importance of reading the written word, as we’re doing. But this pericope, especially in the earlier portions of it, it points us, in verses 12-14 to how the ultimate Word of God, the living Word, Jesus Christ (which you just talked about in the last passage) reads us by the Spirit.

So, what would you want our listening audience to know about this particular double movement?

[00:26:26] Neusch: I’ll say kind of an introductory thing at first, and then I’ll get into that two-way movement bit, if that’s okay.

I don’t know about you, but I’ve mostly heard growing up this text taught in sermons as simply, and one dimensionally, being about the Bible: this just is a text about the Bible — which of course would have only been the Old Testament at this point when it was written. And the problem with that interpretation, that this is just saying the Bible is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, is that it’s insufficient.

It doesn’t quite cut it. And you can get that from context, just reading a bit about what it says, but also, more so theologically. And the letter, as we just read last was, it began with Hebrews telling us that God has spoken through other ways previously, but now he is speaking through his Son.

And so, the main thrust of Hebrews is about the supremacy of Christ, in general, as the way that God speaks now. And so, we do get the sense that with this Greek word, the logos, it’s not just Scripture. Although it very well may include, it doesn’t exclude scripture, but the logos is so much more big. It’s the logic of God. It’s the Word. And we know through John 1, it manifests as Christ.

Some movements of the church can slip into almost the deification or worship of Scripture a bit, especially when they use the “word of God” in this text to just mean the Bible. And I think we need to be a bit wary of that because the scriptures need to be read through the logos of Christ.

It needs the Spirit of Christ, as the life giver, as we read it. Because Jesus even says, you search the scriptures because in them, you think in the scriptures, you think you have eternal life, but it’s actually me that these scriptures are speaking of it in the first place. [John 5:39]

That’s one of the clarifications, which you said in the very beginning. It’s more than just Scripture. It’s the voice, it is the logos, the logic of God, who now we know him as the Son. And so, I think that’s an important way, an important frame for understanding this and being with him, being wary of just reducing it to our leather bound books on our bedside table.

[00:29:15] Anthony: Yes.

[00:29:16] Neusch: And also, because we know that the scriptures can be weaponized and used for very anti-Christ purposes. And so, we don’t just want to have a flat statement that, look what this book does. It needs the Spirit of Christ, the logos, for that proper interpretation and application.

In terms of the two way flow you were speaking about, I think this is part of the way — wouldn’t claim to do it well, but I aim to do biblical studies and theology. Because in some ways I am a scientist of sorts, investigating the text with my tools. I’ve got my exegetical scalpel, this and that.

And then we get from Karl Barth (and you can name so many people) this idea of the reality of God. And it makes it such that when we do theology, we are dealing with God himself here, not just an abstract concept that we can kind of fillet out on the lab desk and work with. So, I feel a bit like in the biblical scholar world, I’m using my Fisher price tools to try and chip away at the scriptures.

But ultimately, it’s the logos of God who is piercing to the division of my soul and spirit and is discerning the thoughts and intentions of my heart. It’s the logos of God that pierces and cuts and devise and examines us. We don’t then want to avoid investigating scripture. I think that’s helpful. And it’s part of the process and the journey of honoring the text, of valuing it and using our best tools to help us make the most sense of it.

But in doing so, we also have to step back and go, we are also dealing with the reality of God here, who we are theologizing about, who is cutting us in the process. And he is, in a good way, pruning us and doing surgery on us and helping us. So that’s just a bit of the way I tend to think about it.

[00:31:43] Anthony: That is a helpful frame. And we invite the Lord by his Spirit to do his surgery. And we’re reminded that all surgery is major surgery. There’s nothing minor about any surgery.

Jared, in the staggering reality of the ongoing incarnation of Christ, we have a high priest who gets us, understands us, who knows our weaknesses, our suffering. And just for a moment, I want to pull in a quote from George McDonald. He wrote, “Jesus is in himself aware of every human pain. He feels it also. In him too it is pain. With the energy of tenderest love he wills his brothers and sisters free, that he may fill them to overflowing with that essential thing, joy.”

And in that case, joy is paradoxical, right? Maybe this is the mercy that the author of Hebrews tells us about in verse 16, that we receive mercy. And that part of that is joy that doesn’t make sense in the midst of all that’s going on in our lives. But tell us more about this incarnate one who gets us.

[00:33:00] Neusch: Yeah, what a powerful and just a really profound reality. I think about it on a few different levels. On one level, it is incredibly meaningful, and it really encourages us that he has endured suffering, and pain, temptation and all these things, and we’re not alone in our trials. And that really does make a difference.

We have to imagine the possibility that it could have been a world in which God did not incarnate, and he was a distant, he or she was a distant figure on a throne who could not relate, wasn’t interested in relating. And that would be a bummer of a relationship with God.

But it’s such a gift that we have one who became man, became human. And that there is that identification and that solidarity with us. And that’s really, really, really meaningful. And it shows God by love.

It shows you there’s not much of a clearer demonstration of love than that and his coming and his willingness to incarnate and suffer and die to be with us. So that’s beautiful, and it really cuts deep.

On a second level, I tend to think of this also as a bit of a blueprint for us, for solidarity and peacemaking and love for others around us. I see this about Jesus, and I think we’re challenged to imitate him by seeing those who are marginalized, in danger, and in need, and we are then challenged to descend into their world, so to speak, to participate with them. And this is the nuts and bolts of how one lays down their life for others, which refers to in the New Testament, “no greater love,” and it speaks about laying down a life. I think this is some of what that’s referring to.

So, on one level, it’s hugely meaningful for us. I also am inspired by it and take it as a model. Oh, I think there’s an incarnational ethic there, that we can go into other people’s space where they need someone with them and join them and not just pray from a distance or something like that. I think that there’s something to grab hold of there in terms of our own living.

And then I think, maybe on a third level, I think about this that there is a participation here, as well, that now flows the other way. It’s not just that Christ has experienced our world — though, again, this is very meaningful — but in him experiencing our world and in his resurrection now, we now participate in his reality.

He has grabbed ahold of our wrists and pulled us with him when he was with us. Because of this, we’re not only, as Paul stated, crucified with Christ (there’s that participation there), but we’re also now sharing in the reality and the hope of the resurrection to come as well. So, him being someone who is with us and knows our suffering and weakness, it’s great that it’s meaningful that he’s there with us.

And then on the other side of the same coin, there’s this excitement that I’m now getting to share in his reality. So, he “gets us,” but now he’s made it such that I get to understand him and get to inhabit his space as well. I’m moved by that kind of participatory dynamic in this idea.

[00:37:13] Anthony: Jesus is the true human in my mind. As you referred to, we can look at him and see an example of what some might call incarnational living. And you talked about laying down your life for another, and I think of a Pauline text that tells us to esteem others greater than ourselves And Jared, I don’t know about you, but that does not come naturally for me. I’m really good at esteeming myself, but putting somebody else above my interests and needs, it does not come naturally, but it’s a supernatural thing by God’s Spirit. And to be active participants in that, in the divine nature, as you alluded to at the end, that we get to join him in his love relationship with the Father and that gets expressed with our neighbor. What I take away from what you just said is always, there’s more than meets the eye when we come to Scripture.

There’s such depth and richness and robustness if we would just allow the spirit to help us to see. Just a statement and a thought.

[00:38:21] Neusch: Really well said.

[00:38:30] Anthony: Let’s transition to our third pericope of the month. It’s Hebrews 5:1-10. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 24 in Ordinary Time, which is October 20.

Every high priest chosen from among mortals is put in charge of things pertaining to God on their behalf, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is subject to weakness, 3 and because of this he must offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as for those of the people. 4 And one does not presume to take this honor but takes it only when called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming a high priest but was appointed by the one who said to him, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you”; 6 as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.” 7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered, 9 and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, 10 having been designated by God a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

We read that Jesus is ultimately the greater high priest. And as you mentioned in the context of Hebrews, it wants to point us to the supremacy of Christ. But those can just be words if we’re not careful. So, I guess I’m going to invite you to make it personal. How is Jesus Christ the greater high priest and why does it matter, Jared?

[00:40:28] Neusch: Yeah, there’s a lot in that text. I think there is a lot that could be learned in that text. Especially if you really want to dive into the Old Testament and the roles of the priests and the priesthood and sacrifices and all of that. And I don’t consider myself an expert there. So, I think there’s just so much more that we can learn on this.

But in general, Israel’s priests had a role to represent the people of Israel to God and to offer various kinds of sacrifices. But some of the problem — I think there were multiple problems — but some of the problem was that the priests were flawed themselves. And so, they were even having to offer sacrifices for their own sin as they were going about this process.

But also, they were operating under a different covenant than we are in now. And through this process, ultimately, a new covenant was needed. And so, Jesus is the needed solution. But he didn’t come from the line of Aaron; he comes from a different line altogether, which the author says is the line of Melchizedek, which is, of course, a bit of a mysterious figure.

And you can dive in and see what different people think about that, but he appears in the stories of Abraham and in Psalm 110 as well. In general, there was an insufficiency in the system leading up to Christ. Like Paul tells us in Galatians, the law functioned as a tutor until the arrival of Christ.

It wasn’t in competition with Christ or something that needed to be destroyed. It was put in place as a bit of a pedagogue, as a tutor that would lead us there until the fullness of time. And this was great, but ultimately it was always insufficient. It was never meant to be sufficient.

It was meant to lead to Christ eventually. And so, it did not, it could not compete with the supremacy of Christ, his salvific work. And this is the same when we think back to the beginning of Hebrews 1 that we’ve talked about; there are ways that God has acted and moved and mediums he has worked through in many times, in many ways, but now his Son. And so, Christ is able to offer the ultimate deliverance in a way that we were obviously never able to.

I guess just to kick things off, that’s how I understand the previous system and its role in the story and how Christ mediating this new covenant is just supreme.

[00:43:32] Anthony: And thanks be to God that he is the mediator, and he mediates our relationships.

And I bring that up as a tip of the spear of what I’m about to ask. In its original etymology, the word arrogant means to claim for oneself what’s not rightly theirs. I say that because there’s just no whiff of arrogance in Jesus, even though he is the supreme high priest. He did not claim the honor of high priest apart from the Father appointing him. He did not glorify himself.

I’m curious what do you make of the humility of God revealed in Jesus Christ? And again, why does it matter?

[00:44:17] Neusch: This, you know, immediately makes me think of Philippians 2, which is the earliest Christ hymn that we have, at least we think. And it says, “He did not regard equality with God something to be grasped but emptied himself taking the form of a slave, assuming human likeness and being found in appearance as a human. He humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

The humility of the incarnation, suffering and death of Christ — and to me, this is a really, really big point in my own theology, in some of my writing, in some of my passion, even when it comes to Christian pacifism is this way of Christ, the humility, the willingness to suffer these things.

And this is not a 33 year blip on the radar of God of how he was this one time. Oh, in this moment, he was the slain lamb and nonviolent, but now he’s the lion of Judah and he’s coming back to retributively take everyone out.

No. This is not just a little blip on the radar of God that finished. This is a perfectly clear window into the nature of God. This is what God has always been like. It is what he will always be like. It is how he is.

And there’s — I need to stay on topic here, but you can get into the book of Revelation, and it reads in perfect harmony with this humble suffering, slain lamb depiction of God. We don’t need to take a right turn when we get to the Eschaton and go, all right, now he’s coming back for blood, and it’s going to be quite a violent story. There is a way to read this where it is the slain lamb and his army of martyrs. But we won’t get into that now.

This is then central, if we bring things back to hermeneutics or biblical interpretation, this humility, that God reveals in himself through Christ. This willingness to self-empty while we were still sinners and while we were still enemies and violent towards him, he positioned himself in this beautiful, canonic way.

And this sort of depiction of God, like I said, it’s not a blip on the radar. It is how he was and how he will always be. And I think this, understanding of God needs to be excavated a bit more rigorously in our reading of the Old Testament. And so, there’s so many reasons it matters.

That’s one of the ones that comes to mind. This needs to play out in our reading of the scriptures. We don’t want it to just be that we see this way or manner of God in tiny little pockets. And especially when we get to the Gospels, but elsewhere, we see a bit of a different view. This is how God has revealed himself most clearly, and it needs to matter in terms of how we read Scripture.

[00:47:59] Anthony: Yeah, it’s going back to what we said earlier about him being Jesus, the true human, showing us how life can be lived by the Spirit and the outworking of his humility. It can’t be compartmentalized; it must be reflected, embodied in the way that we live.

And referring back to the last pericope, we talked about the outworking of loving our neighbor, laying down our lives, esteeming them. But it’s a double movement as well, because I think one of the problems we’ve had, especially say quote unquote Christian missions, is we’re coming to save somebody. Or we’re coming in to be the hero and not in great humility, in Christ’s humility, asking ourselves, what can we learn from the other? How can they serve us? How can they be a blessing to us?

I think that’s part of the outworking here of Christ’s humility that abides in us by his Spirit is that, you know what, there is something for me to learn and to receive from the one that I’m going to serve. And so, there’s, oh, there’s so much we could say, but it’s just one of the thoughts that came to mind.

[00:49:12] Neusch: That’s beautiful, Anthony. And it’s so delightful to hear you say that. This sort of view of Jesus is the antidote to, you know, colonial missiology, where it’s going to coerce and dictate the way things are going. And instead, what you’re talking about is absolutely beautiful.

And it perfectly captures the way of Christ. So that’s amazing.

[00:49:45] Anthony: May it be so Lord.

Our final pericope of the month is Hebrews 7:23-38. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 25 in Ordinary Time, which is October 27. Jared, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:50:08] Neusch: Yes.

Furthermore, the former priests were many in number because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he has no need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; this he did once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests humans, who are subject to weakness, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

[00:51:00] Anthony: Amen and hallelujah. For the sake of time, I’m going to stack two questions into one. I don’t like doing this, but they do relate to each other. First of all, the statement “once for all” shows up repeatedly in Hebrews, and it’s really crucial, I think, to understanding the epistle. So, what does that mean and what’s included in that?

And also Jared, we read about this forever high priest who lives to make intercession for us, which is interesting because in Romans 8, we also learn that the Spirit intercedes for us. So, we’ve got the Trinity on alert on our behalf, but it’s not a once per year on a high day of atonement, but perpetually praying on our behalf. And that’s just almost too much to take in.

So, I wanted to ask in this “once for all” high priest, can we rightfully say Jesus Christ is humanity’s ultimate prayer partner, and when we pray, we’re joining him in his ongoing, already prayers to the Father? What are your thoughts?

[00:52:05] Neusch: Yes. Wow. It’s powerful imagery. That’s well said.

I think one of the ways we need to avoid thinking about him interceding for us is that Jesus is currently in heaven holding off the Father or petitioning the Father to forgive us or to be merciful to us because otherwise he wouldn’t.

But instead, we know obviously God was in the Son on the cross reconciling the world to himself. This has been his plan all along. So instead, Jesus is here, he’s something of a mediator of this new covenant. And as we are still a community in process, we’re still being sanctified.

Jesus is maintaining this covenant for us and praying for us. And so, we have confidence that regardless of us and our inevitable moments of infidelity, we can count on the faithfulness of Christ. This is, in the Greek, pistis Christou, and it’s a term used by Paul often and primarily in reference to the events surrounding Easter.

But here, I think we see the faith and the faithfulness of Christ continued in the heavens as he is faithful to continue interceding in for us and mediating this new covenant. And yeah, it’s this wild prayer partner but also, as you said, communing with the Father about us. It’s a really humbling and beautiful concept.

I wouldn’t pretend to understand it, but I am moved by it for sure. And, like you said, there’s this once for all peace as well. And this speaks to the sufficiency of Christ and the work of Christ. Much of what Paul writes about in Galatians, but also Romans and elsewhere, is that now we do not need to rely on the works of the law.

But instead — again, bringing back to pistis Christou — is the faithfulness of Christ, which justifies us and saves us. And so, our justification and salvation don’t come about because of what we have done or what we’re going to do. And we’re not holding things together. It’s achieved through his faithfulness, and in this position he has next to the Father, we can rely on.

And so, the “once for all seals” the deal on this. It is “once” meaning we don’t need more sacrifices and more works of justification or deliverance or anything like that. And then the “for all,” I would say, this is obviously a matter of scope as well. It is not a limited atonement or a limited deliverance. What we’re getting here is it’s total.

That would be my thoughts on that pericope.

[00:55:07] Anthony: Jared, you are a beloved child of God, and we love the way that your sonship is being worked out in your work that was brought to bear here today. I’m so grateful that you would join us.

And I wanted to remind our listening audience, and I take this from Michael Reeves, a fellow Brit. He said, “There is now a man, a real man with our flesh and blood, our experiences of the world, our humanity, in heaven. For all Christ’s heavenly majesty, seated on the throne, he is not now aloof and unconcerned. He knows, and loves, and intercedes for his own.”

Hallelujah. Praise god.

I want to thank our podcast team who made this episode possible, Reuel Enerio, our podcast producer, Elizabeth Mullins, our transcriber, and Michelle Hartman, our fearless leader. It’s just great to work with a team of people to make this podcast happen.

And Jared, it’s our tradition here on Gospel Reverb to end with prayer. So, I’m going to invite you to pray for us, please.

[00:56:13] Neusch: Yeah. Thank you.

Spirit, thank you for this time. Thank you for the ability to be able to dialogue about the written word, but also the living Word, the logos. And we can do this from a distance through microphones.

I just I want to speak a blessing over all those listening, wherever they are, just an encouragement. And I pray that the Spirit of Christ meets with you, encourages you, comforts you. And we just pray, Lord, that as we journey with you, as we get to know you, as we read the scriptures, that we would be enraptured by the logos of God, that we would be moved by it, that we would be divided down to soul and spirit by the logos and that as we read scripture, you would continue to work with us and speak to us about how the revelation of Christ changes everything.

And so again, Jesus, thank you for this time. And I pray that this conversation will lead to great questions, hopefully some truth, and it will form us ultimately into better and better followers and disciples of you. In Jesus’ name, amen.

The post Jared Neusch—Year B Propers 22-25 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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David Kowalick—Year B Propers 17-21

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest, David Kowalick. David is the founder and director of Godwit Ministries in Australia. Godwit is a resourcing ministry designed to equip church pastors and leaders in regions where theological training and resources are scarce. He is an ordained minister with over 30 years of full-time ministry experience in church, mission, and Bible college contexts.

David is married to Catherine, and they have four adult children. And if you’d like more information on Godwit and David himself, you can visit their ministry website, godwit.com.au.

David, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d like to know you a little bit of your personal story and how you are joining with Jesus these days.

David: It’s good to be on your podcast and thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure to share the gospel with anyone and everyone, which is one of our slogans of Godwit Ministries, is to share the gospel with anyone, anywhere, and everywhere, so we don’t want to limit it.

And technology, of course, makes that a lot more possible. So, it’s great that we’re able to talk from other sides of the world and still talk about the gospel in real time.

Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. And Godwit, it sounds like you’re taking resources to places where maybe those resources aren’t readily available.

Can you tell us a little bit more about the ministry?

[00:02:30] David: Yeah, sure. So, I’ve been involved in church ministry, pastoral ministry for a number of years, and I had this sense — it was almost a miraculous call, where I was told through a number of different methods that I felt the Holy Spirit was leading me to take every opportunity to share the gospel that came my way. And if someone, even someone from a place where they had no money, and there’s no way that it could be done, just to say yes anyway, and that the resources would be there to make it happen. And that’s exactly what did happen.

My first invitation was to a place in Papua New Guinea, which is a country near Australia. And there was a young pastor there who was really struggling, and they’d been doing some study here in Australia. And he said, “Look, we really need to get more Bible teaching up in our area. Would you be willing to come?”

And at the time, I thought, you’ve got no money and I’ve got no money. So be warm and fed. And that’s it; we’ll just leave it there. But then I had that nudge, that sense, no, just say yes and see what happens. So, I said, sure, I’ll come. That sounds like a plan.

And then, sure enough within days people just came and said, “I was led by the Spirit to give you this money towards something that’s coming up. I don’t know what it is, but I know that I’m meant to give it to you.” And it was the exact right amount of money to cover the costs of going there and doing a pastor’s conference over a period of a couple of weeks.

And it just snowballed from there. And so, every year, I was going up to Papua New Guinea or to Fiji, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and India. But India and Papua New Guinea have been the main places I’ve been visiting over the years. India, I’ve been to 11 times, and it’s been a really fruitful ministry.

It’s mainly aimed at Bible teaching with a Trinitarian view, with a grace orientation to a lot of these guys who are brilliant leaders. They’re way better leaders than I’ll ever be; they’re leading large thriving churches. But a lot of them say they’re struggling with preaching every Sunday because, to be honest, they would say, I don’t have the theological input that I felt that I needed.

Some of them have only had two or three months of Bible college. That’s all they could afford, all that was available, and the quality wasn’t really that good. And so, they knew that they were struggling, and so they really would take a hold of anything you had to give them, and they would run a thousand miles with it.

And the other thing that you notice when you’re in these places is that people will crawl across cut glass to hear the gospel. And when you’re in a place like Australia, and I know it’s probably like this in many parts of the United States as well, that people become a little bit blasé about the things of God and good Bible teaching, and they take it all for granted.

And sometimes you can feel like a soufflé chef, curating these beautiful little pieces of cuisine for people to eat, and they don’t even bother with it. And yet you go to a place like India, and they will take every word you say and will hang off every word. And then they will take that back to their villages, to their towns, and they will disseminate every single piece of that.

And they’ve even said to me many times, I’ve taken every single thing that you’ve said, I’ve written it down, I’m going to preach that same message precisely to my church. And that’s not seen as a bad thing, that’s seen as a compliment. So that’s it’s just a different world and it’s quite an amazing experience to see that sort of thing.

[00:06:35] Anthony: Praise God. We were chatting prior to starting the recording and just thanking you for your active participation in Jesus’s ministry. And just hearing more of the backstory, you saying yes to that nudging of the Spirit, stepping out on faith, not kind of. It was like you said, like, how is this going to come together?

And yet God provides, he is so generous. And so again, thank you for saying yes. And we will be praying, ongoing, for Godwit and your participation in it. It’s exciting what you’re doing. And you’re right — may we not become blasé to the glorious good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, let’s talk about Jesus and the word of God being made manifest here on this podcast. We’re going to look at this month’s lectionary passages, and we’re going to pivot now to our first passage of the month. It’s James 1: 17-27. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It’s the Revised Common Lectionary Passage for Proper 17 in Ordinary Time, which is September the 1.

Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave birth to us by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures. 19 You must understand this, my beloved brothers and sisters: let everyone be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for human anger does not produce God’s righteousness. 21 Therefore rid yourselves of all sordidness and rank growth of wickedness, and welcome with meekness the implanted word that has the power to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word and not merely hearers who deceive themselves. 23 For if any are hearers of the word and not doers, they are like those who look at themselves in a mirror; 24 for they look at themselves and, on going away, immediately forget what they were like. 25 But those who look into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and persevere, being not hearers who forget but doers who act—they will be blessed in their doing. 26 If any think they are religious and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

David, I’d be grateful if you would tell us about the good news that is shoehorned into verses 17 and 18 to start this passage, and what are the theological implications of what is said there?

[00:09:26] David: Yeah, James is one of those controversial books. It was Luther who said that it was a book of straw. I know that’s taken a little bit out of context because he still believed that it was meant to be in the scriptures, but he saw it as being not perhaps a top-shelf letter compared to some of the other letters.

And that makes perfect sense coming from his particular point of view and his background. He was so overwhelmed by the grace of God that it blinded him to everything else, I think.

And I think, sometimes I look at the church today, and I see that there are a lot of churches that are still very legalistic, and you see it as a performance. Prerequisites have to be fulfilled before God will bless you and all that kind of thing.

But then there’s been a large wave of churches that have embraced this message of grace. But then seem to have virtually lost the outworking of that grace in a life of (like the writer to James says) not only knowing these things but doing them. And I’ve fallen into that trap myself. I’ve experienced that because I had a profound experience of God’s grace that totally turned me around and it was shocking. It was amazing. It was wonderful. And then I began to preach a message of grace, but I preached it almost to the exclusion of everything else.

And I think what James is doing here is he’s taking the grace of God, right there at the beginning, he’s saying this is all coming down, it’s a gift from above, it’s all coming from the Father.

And it’s not burying, it’s just there’s no shadow of turning, as it says in the Old King James. But you can turn that light around, it doesn’t cast a shadow in any direction because it’s not a reflected light, it is the source of light. And so, God is consistent, he never changes, he’s good every day, doesn’t have mood swings. And so, you can be totally reliant on God’s goodness every day of the week and in every possible way.

But then, I think, this whole point of this entire letter is perhaps to bring correction for what he was seen happening in the broader church at that time. And I think that his letter is very relevant for the Western church right now, especially churches that have actually adopted the message of grace and have adopted it so much that they have almost seen things like good works as being very suspect that you could fall into works righteousness if you do anything that’s good or you strive too much.

And yet I look at the life of, say, the apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, where he says that he was the least deserving of all the apostles because he’d been persecuting the church. But he said, I am what I am by the grace of God, and I work harder than them all, that is all the other apostles. So, he’s saying he’s received a lot of grace, but the effect of that is that he’s thrown himself into service. He’s saying that the grace of God has an effect, it has an ongoing outworking.

And I believe that’s exactly what James is trying to say. If you have received this wonderful gift from the Father of Lights, then it will have an effect upon you, or it should have an effect upon you, unless, of course, you forget what’s really going on here.

It’s like looking in the mirror. And you forget what’s really going on, and you lose sight of the extraordinary nature of God’s grace and its ability to turn you around and cause you to live a life which is a complete variance to what you had experienced before.

It’s not just the relief of salvation; it’s the capacity to serve and the capacity to respond, in kind, to what God has done. I’ve had to personally go through that corrective experience myself. And I always looked at James and thought I don’t want to preach from James. I want to preach from Galatians or whatever.

And but as I’ve gone on in ministry, I’ve discovered, yeah, we really need to hear the fullness of the gospel of grace is not just about what we’re saved from, it’s what we’re saved into. And it’s not just all sitting in the lap of God and enjoying him as Father. It’s going on to become sons of God.

And I think we’ve stopped at just the familial relationship, but the term “son of God” means someone who’s been given the divine authority to rule. And the way we’re made to rule is by living a life that serves the purposes in the kingdom of God and speaks to the world around us.

And there’s work to be done, even in the life to come. It’s not going to be just one big, long celebration and endless worship services. There’s work to be done. And that work, I really do believe, begins in this life, in the way we serve those that we’ve been given to serve around us in practical ways.

And so, unlike what a lot of people seem to be saying, it is actually a book of grace.

I think I’ve raved on enough.

[00:15:11] Anthony: Ha, no, amen and I’m encouraged by what you said, grace turned your life around. Thank God for it because it’s turned all of us around and yet we look to a God who doesn’t turn. There’s no shadow there and thanks be to God for it.

And as I think about this particular pericope, David, it seems to me the remainder of the text is that outworking that you spoke about, our response to God’s grace, the reality that God is hyper generous and there’s no shadow or shady thing found in the Trinity.

So, if you were preaching this particular text, what else would you draw out from the passage to bless, to encourage, to challenge the community of faith?

[00:15:59] David: I’d be willing to reiterate just what we’ve already said that God’s goodness is unvarying and then to give that sort of practical application. But I noticed he talks about looking into the law of liberty. It’s the law. I believe sometimes we see the law as almost like an enemy.

And the law, God’s law, which I mean, I think from a Jewish point of view, it is just a list of moral requirements. It’s not just the Ten Commandments. It’s rather, it’s the whole of the Old Covenant, first five books of the Bible in particular, that story of those first five books sets up the history of the world.

And we see that we’re connected to that history, and that history actually being outworked in our time, in our lives, individually and corporately. And that what we together are — and when I say together, the entire church right across the world, all the believers, and all across time, too — are involved in the history of the outworking of the law.

And so, the law isn’t, again, it’s not just this kind of — I think evangelical churches tend to make the law into a moral code. And even if they say it’s more than that, it’s the feeling you get when you hear people talking about the law. That it’s merely a moral code when it’s so, so much more than that.

There is a moral aspect to it, but we can overemphasize that and miss the point of what the law was trying to do. Part of the law is the blessing of Abraham and the promise of the coming Messiah. And that promise is, in part, fulfilled through the church as the church demonstrates the people of God living a life which is, again, a variance to the ideologies of the world and the way the world lives.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience. These days you get to share the gospel, and when I was taught the whole “Romans Road” way of doing the gospel, which I don’t agree with anymore. But you can’t make people feel guilty anymore. People just don’t feel guilty. I talk to a lot of younger people, and they will actually say, “I’m the bad person? You’re the one with the issues. You’re bigoted. You have a narrow view of the world.”

And trying to give people that sense that they need salvation — boy, people just reject that out of hand these days. It’s the big story, it’s the meta story, it’s behind everything. I believe it actually informs us about everything that’s going on in the world.

And yet it comes down to this very practical thing of looking after those around you and loving those that are around you and bridling your tongue and caring for the widow and the orphan and so on. This is the way to people’s hearts, not by clashing ideologies. So, there’s very practical work and it’s very, I’ve got to say, it’s very challenging work too.

I’m way, way less than I ought to be. And yet there’s a trajectory that I see in a person’s life. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people say, I feel like I’m totally failing. I’m not like the people in the Bible. I just wish that I could be better. And then I say, you’re exactly like the people in the Bible.

If you had a long, hard look at the life of Peter, for instance, and seeing the way he fell flat on his face numerous times. Even Paul, he was no fun at parties, and all the Old Testament characters and David and half the Bible is written by murderers.

It’s mind banging when you see it that way and realize that you’re not expected to get your life completely sorted out by Tuesday next week. It’s an ongoing process. But when you look back over the last five years, if you became a believer or something like that, how much have you changed?

And that’s when the lights go on and they say, yeah, I’m a different person. I live a different life. And things that I used to do, I absolutely hate them now, and things that I had no care for, they’re the love of my life now.

And so sometimes just getting out and seeing what has actually happened, and that even though we may stumble from time to time, it’s a slow-motion miracle that we’re involved in.

It doesn’t happen overnight. And that’s true for everyone in the Bible. It’s true for all of the famous believers, these books we’ve read, and so on. No one is above reproach. But at the same time, there is a moral element. There’s a moral change, and a change of perception about the world and what we’re about.

And it’s that, I believe, that brings the moral change. The moral change, really in the end, is the fruit of all this other stuff. It’s not the cause of it. I guess that’s the big thing to get across and I think James does brilliantly.

[00:21:33] Anthony: Yeah. Slow-motion miracle. I like the way you phrase that. That’s what’s at work here.

Let’s pivot to our next passage of the month. It’s James 2:1-17. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 18 in Ordinary Time, which is September 8. David, would you read it, please?

[00:21:54] David: Sure.

My brothers and sisters, do not claim the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory while showing partiality. 2 For if a person with gold rings and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and if a poor person in dirty clothes also comes in, 3 and if you take notice of the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Have a seat here in a good place, please,” while to the one who is poor you say, “Stand there,” or, “Sit by my footstool,” 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor person. Is it not the rich who oppress you? Is it not they who drag you into the courts? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you? 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

[00:23:47] Anthony: Mercy triumphs over judgment. I’m not sure how it is in Australia, but here in the United States, David, far too many Christians hold up wealth as a sign of success and God’s blessing. Whereas poverty, it’s a curse based on, often, what is considered apathetic or lazy living. All of which can lead to a pathway of showing partiality.

From your perspective, what instruction does this passage give the church that we need to hear?

[00:24:17] David: Yeah. Sure. Again, I would be saying that there’s something extraordinary that takes place in a person’s life when they become a believer. And the circumstances of your life really have little bearing on the outcome of that because if grace is up to good breeding, good luck. Then that means that grace isn’t grace after all. It’s just pure luck.

And the fact that God can take anyone from any situation, even of the worst situation in the world, and not just poverty in a financial sense, but poverty in the way that they’ve been raised, their education, maybe health, whatever it is. And he can take that person and turn them into an extraordinary human being who can be involved in things that are beyond the imagination that they would have had under natural circumstances. That means we can’t look at those surface things like even your personality and your socialization, education. All those things count little in the end when it comes to what God can do with someone.

And in fact, it’s almost as if God deliberately turns everything upside down. And to me, one of the best examples of this is the choosing of Jacob over Esau. You remember the story where Ephraim and Manasseh were being blessed by Jacob later in life. Because Jacob had experienced being chosen by God over his older brother, which was exactly the opposite to the way things would normally take place.

And then when he goes to put the blessing on Joseph’s children, he crosses his hands, and he puts his right hand on the son who’s on the left side and his left hand on the son who’s on the right side. And he deliberately does this because that’s what he had experienced, because he’d seen God do that to him. God sort of deliberately crossed his hands, and he put the greater blessing on the lesser of the two sons.

And in a way, you can see that taking place at a broader sense that God puts the greater blessing on those who have the greatest poverty, whether it be in spirit or in finance or both or everything. And so often God’s choosing is not based on the ways that we judge people.

So, someone wanders into the church — and I think this is what James is really saying — don’t look down on someone who is poor, considering them to be less because in the eyes of God, that makes absolutely no sense.

And often God chooses the people that we would never choose to get the job done, like Jacob. Look, let’s face it, Jacob wasn’t the greatest [inaudible]. And yet he became the bearer of the message. And Paul takes that point and he says, nothing can thwart what God is going to do.

And so, if he’s going to cross these hands — beware, if you treat someone who in this world looks like they’re lesser, they may actually end up being the one who’s got the greater blessing. And you put your — I’ve forgotten the verse in the Old Testament where it says to show contempt to the poor is to show contempt to God.

And so if we look down our nose on anyone, then we’re really putting ourselves in a great danger, in a sense. And we make ourselves the judge of the situation, and if we do that, as it’s very plain elsewhere in the New Testament, that if we lack mercy, then we thwart mercy. If we don’t give forgiveness, then we shut the door to forgiveness.

I suppose that the story that really gets me every time is that story where Jesus said to Matthew, come and follow me. And so, he left his tax collecting job, and then he got all his reprobate friends around for a party. Then the Pharisees were talking to the disciples and saying, how come your rabbi hangs out with these lowlifes and what’s the deal with that?

And then Jesus comes out and he understands what’s going on. And he talks to them, and he says that a doctor only comes for the sick, he doesn’t come for those who are well. And I can imagine, and it’s not actually stated, but it’s implied that the Pharisees heard that and were thinking, oh, okay that explains why you don’t hang around with us because we’re healthy and we don’t need a doctor. Right?

And of course it was a thinly veiled rebuke, and they couldn’t understand it. But of course, they thought themselves above the sickness and above, in the spiritual sense, needing help. And of course, the ones who know they need help are first in line to receive it. And the ones who don’t know they need to, or don’t think they do, don’t line up for the grace of God.

There was an old TV game show that used to be here in Australia, probably you had something similar in the United States. It was called the Money or the Box. And in the game, if you acquired a certain amount of wealth in the game — let’s say you, you’d earned a thousand dollars in the process of the game. At some point in the game, you could choose to give up all of your money to get a box, which you don’t know what’s inside of it. Now inside the box, there could be a million dollars or there might be an old shoe.

And so, then you were given that opportunity to trade your thousand dollars for whatever’s in the box. Now of course, if you’ve got a decent amount of money, you’re going to be loath to trade it for what you don’t know. It could just be nothing, and you’ve given it up and it comes to nothing. But if you’ve only earned, say, 10, and then the offer is made to the money or the box, of course you give up your 10, and you receive what’s in the box, and who knows, you might get a million dollars.

And something like that is true between the person who is poor in spirit. Jesus said, blessed is the poor in spirit, the person who knows that they need help. They’re the ones that are going to trade in whatever they’ve got and say, I’m trading this whole thing in. And that’s exactly what Matthew did.

He said, I’m trading in my tax collecting business because I know it’s leading nowhere and I’m going to take a chance on this. Whereas the Pharisee or the person who’s rich in spirit or rich in things of this world, may be loath to do it and wants to hang on to it and doesn’t want to give up what they already have.

I guess the rich young ruler falls into that category. He was rich, he was young, and he was powerful. And it turns out that he was not only those three things, but he was also kept the Ten Commandments since he was a boy, he bragged.

Jesus said, how are you going with the Ten Commandments? He said, been keeping that since I was a boy, no problem. Got that sorted. And he’s like that kid at school, in your class, if you remember him. He was a good athlete; he was a great artist and brilliant at arithmetic and all of the STEM sciences as well.

He was one of those guys and Jesus said, would you trade all of that? Would you give that all up and come and follow me? And I don’t think he was saying, well done on the Ten Commandments. Now let’s go to the next level. You’ve got through the primary level. Now you go to radical discipleship.

I really think he was saying to him, are you willing to give up everything that you put your hopes in, which is your good, strong spiritual life, your wealth and power, which you would see as a blessing from God. And of course, at the end of that whole thing, after that guy went off, Jesus said, how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

And at the time, of course, those Jewish people would have been saying if a rich man can’t get in, a man who’s blessed and has got all the obvious signs of God’s blessing, then there’s no chance for any of us. And he wasn’t saying that. That being poor is a virtue, but he was saying that being rich can blind you to the things of God. But then, of course, the [inaudible] that Jesus gives is with man, it’s impossible. But with God, all things are possible. In other words, anyone, no matter who, can be brought into the kingdom of God and nothing can stop you being brought in.

But one thing that can stop you is being blinded by your own spiritual wealth or physical wealth or whatever it is, the sort of markers that the world says, these are good things.

And so, when we make those distinctions with our brothers and sisters in church, we are really muddying the pool of God’s grace very much.

[00:33:41] Anthony: Yeah. Amen. And we know that God chooses the weak and base things, the powerless. And I think we’d all do well to remember, that’s us. We want to project that onto others sometimes.

[00:33:55] David: I’m not having any trouble remembering that.

[00:33:58] Anthony: Let’s, for the sake of time, transition to our next passage of the month. It’s James 3:1-12. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 19 in Ordinary Time, which is on September 15.

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will face stricter judgment. 2 For all of us make many mistakes. Anyone who makes no mistakes in speaking is mature, able to keep the whole body in check with a bridle. 3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we guide their whole bodies. 4 Or look at ships: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, yet they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. 5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great exploits. How great a forest is set ablaze by a such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is placed among our members as a world of iniquity; it stains the whole body, sets on fire the cycle of life, and is itself set on fire by hell. 7 For every species of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species, 8 but no one can tame the tongue—a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse people, made in the likeness of God. 10 From the same mouth comes a blessing and a curse. My brothers and sisters, this ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and brackish water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brothers and sisters, yield olives or a grapevine figs? No more can salt water yield fresh.

David, you’re a teacher who uses your tongue as an attempt to communicate divine truth. No pressure, but this text is holding you and the rest of us to account. So what would you like to share with the pastors, teachers, and church leaders listening to this conversation?

[00:36:08] David: Oh, I think we might just skip over that one if that’s all right with you.

[00:36:11] Anthony: No, you’re not getting off that easy.

[00:36:14] David: Yeah, sure. Yeah, it did frighten me once when I was reading about the spiritual gifts that all of the spiritual gifts actually involve the use of the tongue. Even if you say the gift of healing, you speak something.

There’s a very profound passage, this. Because I think sometimes, we think it’s just the things we do, but everything we do is preceded by things we say. And it is an extraordinary thing that the things that have hurt me the most are not the things that happened to me physically, but the things that have been said to me.

And I’ve broken bones, I’ve had a broken back, I’ve done all those things and I count them as not significant compared to the things that have been said to me. And I got to say, to much shame, the things that I have said have done more damage than anything else I’ve ever done.

I can’t look at this passage and say, you got that one sorted. It’s a constant struggle. And again, we’re not meant to condemn ourselves over this, but at the same time, it does hold us to account. And so, whenever we read a passage like this, it is really easy to take this and then feel all despondent because we’ve failed or whatever.

But again, I go back to the fact that every single person, every major character in the Bible has failed at this point as well, says things they wish they hadn’t done, things they wish they hadn’t done. And the more you read the Bible, the more that becomes apparent too.

I’ve just been reading the book of Samuel lately (sorry, 1 and 2 Samuel) and just looking at the life of David and of Saul and all of it — it was a hot mess that was going on there.

And I look at that and yet I see the transformation that takes place of someone like David, or Paul or Peter or any of the characters. And there is a transforming work that takes place. And the outworking of that is our words.

So yeah, that’s a tough passage to preach. And I do take that very seriously when I say I realized that I’m going to be judged more harshly than someone who’s not a preacher. And yeah, that’s a concern. And again, I know that people will be perhaps even listening to this and saying how’s this got anything to do with the grace of God? Where’s this coming from?

And I guess I’d be saying, again, the grace of God has a long-term effect. It changes your life. But again, it’s a slow-motion miracle. And one of the ways you can see that some of the miracles take place is the way you speak.

I was reading the Didache some time ago and it struck me that the Didache is very much like the book of James. And when you see what was taking place in the church, and the church was really persecuted there in those early days, and it was under a lot of pressure. The way that the early church spoke, the words they said, the way they conducted themselves in the world, really did challenge the world. In fact, part of the reason they got persecuted was because of the way they acted and blessing those who curse you. That’s one of the hardest things in the world to do.

And again, I’ve found this difficult in my own life, but I cannot tell you how many pastoral conversations I’ve had with people saying, this person did this bad thing to me. What am I meant to do? And then you go back to the scriptures and say, what did Jesus say to do with those who curse you? You bless them, forgive those who sin against you. And it’s very straightforward, basic teaching, yet it’s nearly the hardest thing in the world to do to forgive someone who’s genuinely and powerfully hurt you.

And yet, there it is! It comes from the mouth, it’s the words you say, it starts with that. Bless those who curse you. And there’s something very powerful that gets released, I think, when a person does actually put this into action with their words, because those words produce other actions, but with an ongoing and rolling effect.

[00:41:09] Anthony: Go ahead.

[00:41:09] David: Yeah, go on. Go on.

[00:41:10] Anthony: I was going to say earlier, you had talked about, okay, where’s the grace in this pericope because it seems like it’s a difficult teaching. But as we think Christologically, James is telling us to bless those who curse you. And all we have to do is look at Jesus on the cross.

He was being ridiculed, being mocked, being killed, being murdered, unrighteously. And yet, his words are, Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing.

And yet in the face of these words that we’re doing anything but bringing life, we can look at our Lord and see, like a good teacher or a good coach, he’s not asking us to do something that he himself, in his own person, hasn’t already done, right?

And so, all we have to do is look at the life and words of Jesus to see it lived out.

[00:42:08] David: Exactly. The picture here of a rudder and of a small spark that can set a whole forest on fire, they’re good ways of looking at it because not only is that true in a negative sense, but it’s also true in a positive sense. If you reverse the order of that and you bring blessing where there’s been cursing, it can produce huge amount of good at the same time.

I think there’s a place for talking on both sides of that, talking about the blessing that comes from speaking well and of the curse that comes from speaking poorly. Both of those are relevant. But yeah, it’s a very confronting passage, the whole of James. I’ve got to say, you read it and you go, yeah, I’ve got work to do.

[00:42:58] Anthony: Yes, there’s no other way to walk away from it.

So, speaking of that work, let’s get practical. Especially in a divided world here in the U.S., we have a national election coming up later this year. And, as I skim through social media and talk to people, I know there’s a lot of cursing going on as we project our pain onto other people who are made in the image and likeness of God.

Do you have anything to say — you’ve already touched on it, but any practical words of wisdom based on this text and how we can bridle the tongue and speak words of life versus words of curse?

[00:43:46] David: Yeah, it’s definitely since social media has become a thing that the level of cursing going on just seems to have gone completely off the charts.

I heard somebody quip that the source of all evil is the comments in YouTube rather than the love of money. But we have a YouTube channel, and it’s amazing, even from Christians, some of the words that you get. It can be very disheartening.

So, I guess, practically just taking the straight teaching of James here and then contrasting what evil words can do. Again, I would reiterate, evil words can be more damaging than what can be done with a fist or with violence, even though that’s evil. That’s got its own thing going but there’s something extraordinarily powerful in words.

People talk about toxic masculinity, for instance, and how men can be violent and so on. I’ve seen the other side of that; I’ve seen toxic femininity, which can be all just done with words and doing character assassinations and so on. Yeah, none of us are above this. This is something that if we are under the grace of God, and we realize that we’ve been blessed, it changes your heart. It changes your perception of people, your perception of the world, and most cursing comes out of defensiveness or tribalism. And when you’re in the kingdom of God, that defensiveness disappears and evaporates, and your tribalism, it’s no longer necessary.

And yes, I am aware of this division that’s not only taking place in the United States, it seems to be happening right across the West. There’s this polarization between the left and the right. And yet, when I look at Jesus, he was neither on the left or the right. People would say, who would Jesus vote for? And you can’t answer that question because you can’t describe Jesus on the political spectrum. He’s coming from a completely different place. And if we are in the kingdom of God, we ought to be coming from a completely different place as well and representing that kingdom.

That kingdom is not of this earth. It is for this earth, and it is on this earth, but it hasn’t emerged from the earth. It has come from above, from the Father of heavenly lights, and it’s a different kingdom. It cannot be rated on the left or the right, or it’s not centrist, it’s not right, it’s not left. It’s completely other, it’s another kingdom. And the people of God ought to be from that other kingdom, and not just be considered left or right or centrist or whatever it is.

But we’ve got something better to say. We’ve got a different kingdom, a kingdom which is above socialism and above capitalism and above democracy and above all, any -ism you can think of. The kingdom of God’s above it and the people of God speak in a different kind of a language. And I believe that’s the kind of thing that James is saying.

Yet keeping in mind that the warning is there. And when we do fail, which we do, we stumble — anyone who can control their tongue is of course, perfect and we’re less than perfect. But we continue to get up, receive the gift of grace, the forgiveness of God and move on. But in that space, we have the power and the capacity to experience that grace and it gets inside of you.

Again, the slow-motion miracle takes place, and it changes the way we speak.

[00:47:54] Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Those are good words and I think timely words that you’ve just spoken. And given the text, that’s what we’re looking for: words that are fitly spoken.

Let’s move on to our next pericope of the month. It’s James 3:13-4:3, 7-8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 20 in Ordinary Time, which falls on September 22. We’d be grateful, David, if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:48:25] David: Okay.

Who is wise and knowledgeable among you? Show by your good life that your works are done with gentleness born of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be arrogant and lie about the truth. 15 This is not wisdom that comes down from above but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish. 16 For where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will also be disorder and wickedness of every kind. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. 4 Those conflicts and disputes among you, where do they come from? Do they not come from your cravings that are at war within you? 2 You want something and do not have it, so you commit murder. And you covet something and cannot obtain it, so you engage in disputes and conflicts. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly, in order to spend what you get on your pleasures.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

[00:49:56] Anthony: I believe all Scripture should have Jesus as the hermeneutical key since he said, all scripture is about him. So how might this pericope teach us about the God revealed in Jesus Christ?

[00:50:08] David: And again, I’ve got to say, as a preacher, you can look at this passage and you can say, that’s actually a bit of a challenge.

Because it almost seems to be saying that you earn your way into God. And again, I have to say, these kinds of rebukes that are not only here but in other parts of Scripture, including the words of Jesus, are in the context of grace. It’s always the backdrop of: God has been good to you, he’s been gracious to you, therefore this is how you should act.

And it’s not a “therefore, this is how you should strive to it,” but rather this is the outcome, the fruit of the Spirit. And of course, fruit doesn’t come immediately, but it takes time. But it is an inevitable outcome that will take time, will take place eventually. Plant an apricot tree, you will eventually get apricots, not tomatoes. And the same is true if we are planted in the good soil of God’s grace, we will eventually produce words and a life which is gracious.

And so, if that’s not taking place, then you’ve got to ask yourself the question where is your life planted? It’s very likely that you’ve planted yourself in the wrong place and you’ve got your mind governed by the way of the world rather than by the goodness and grace of God.

So, in the context of the Father of heavenly lights is giving this “every good and precious gift from above,” that is the river that flows down through the church and changes each individual in the church over time. And it becomes normalized to be peaceable and gracious and kind and all these things that James is talking about here.

And when we see that these disputes and that sort of thing taking place, it usually means that we’re insecure. We’re not secure in the grace of God, and the outcome of that insecurity always ends up being selfish ambition and so on.

I always remind myself that where Paul writes, listing the good outcomes of the fruit of the Spirit, love, kindness, and generosity and so on. He also puts this other list of things that come out of the flesh. And it’s easy to think what he’s talking about is there is all those terrible people outside of the kingdom of God. That’s what they do. But no, he was addressing that to people in the church. That was what happens to people in the church when they operate in the flesh.

And of course, the flesh here isn’t — he’s not talking about the physical body. He’s talking about a mindset where you make your own way and make things happen rather than relying on the goodness of God.

And so, I guess I’d be taking this passage, and I’d want to preach it in a way that says: are we governed by the grace of God? Or are we, in fact, governed by a kind of effort to climb the stairway to heaven? Because anyone who’s trying to climb the stairway to heaven will always be standing on the heads of those under them. But anyone who is being captured by the grace of God will actually be promoting others rather than trying to climb up the greasy pole of power in the church.

And it can happen in the church. I’m sure you’re well aware that people in the church can really crave power and crave positions and crave notoriety. And look, preachers, of course, are under more pressure than most because you know, we want — I want people to like me. Strangely enough, not everyone does, but I do want people to like me.

And it’s easy to fall into the trap of doing what it takes to get people to like you and then compromise and compromise the message of God. Or to preach in such a way that you can just make people feel good, and they say, what a great preacher! That kind of a thing. That’s all “anti” the kingdom. It sounds nice, but it can just be quite the opposite.

There’s one little thing here I noticed. He says, submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he’ll flee from you. And draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. That could easily be seen as it’s all up to you. It’s up to me. I’m going to go and pursue God and then God will notice me, and he’ll come my way.

I don’t think that’s what it’s saying. It’s more you see, you might find yourself trapped, you might find yourself trapped in a vice. Maybe you’ve got an addiction, maybe you’ve got someone you just cannot stand, or you’ve got an enemy that you cannot forgive, that kind of a thing. They’re insurmountable problems and when you’re in that vice of unforgiveness or under temptation, you’re easy pickings for the devil, in this case.

But what he’s saying there, I believe, is all it takes is just don’t give in. Don’t make it easy for the schemes of the evil one, rather just take a stand and trust that God’s going to look after you. And amazingly, when you do it, it actually happens. And if you give your attention to God, guess what? He is ready and waiting right there to pour out his goodness on you.

And he will come near to you — he’s already near to you, but he’s waiting for you to turn to him and then he just wants, he wants to shower you with his kindness and goodness, but we resist him by turning the other way.

I like to go fishing but every single fish I’ve ever caught, I’ve caught while I’m actually out there fishing, not when I’m at home thinking about it. And I think the same is true here. You don’t get a victory over the schemes of the evil one by just wishing them. You take a stand and the blessings of God, as you decide just to get on with the job and be involved in what God is doing and submit yourself to his plans. Guess what happens?

It just opens the door. And things happen that are well beyond your human capacity, and you find yourself in the middle of miracle making and think, this is obviously not me. This is something else.

[00:56:57] Anthony: That’s a good metaphor, for what you brought up about fishing. It makes me think of repentance.

I think one of the harms that has been done in the church is to think of repentance as a one and done scenario on our end. Of course, it is one and done in terms of Christ’s repentance on our behalf, for us and in us. And we thank God for that because that’s what allows us to repent.

But for me, David, repentance is an ongoing day by day, sometimes moment by moment experience. Because as I look at this passage, I’ve had bitter envy. I’ve had selfish ambition. I’ve been arrogant. I have lied. I have not spoken out of wisdom. I’ve done all the things it says not to do, not to take the stand. But by the grace of God, I’m seeing those things die slowly, a slow-motion death (to use your words), but it happens. And I think we have to see it as, we are where we are by the grace of God, and yet there’s more to go. There’s the work to be done. Let’s go fishing. Let’s go repenting and see God show up in amazing ways in our life.

Let’s move on to our final passage of the month. It’s James 5:13-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 21 in Ordinary Time, which is September 29. And it reads …

Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14 Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth yielded its harvest. 19 My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, 20 you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

As I look back at verses 13 through 16, it does strike me as showing the community of faith as being a place where the healing, and I’m talking about healing of the whole person, and the hospitality of God can be experienced through one another. So, my question is this, why are the relationships in the church so vital for us to experience the unfailing love of God here and now?

[00:59:45] David: Yeah, I look at this passage and I think there’s a kind of a real sense of realness about it because he talks here not as if being a believer is skipping along, singing hallelujah and everything’s going great all the time. He’s presupposing that there will be among you, sometimes there’ll be people who will be sick, and there’ll be people who have fallen over and committed sins.

And he’s saying to us, we should confess our sins to one another. He’s not saying you’re going to be sinless, but I think that we need to get that really clear that, in the community of the church, that we are beggars together. Or what was it? Being a believer is one beggar showing another beggar where to find bread or something like that. We’re all broken people together, but there’s something about a bunch of broken people who do actually care for and love one another and are gracious to one another that does have that healing effect.

And like you say, not just healing of the body, but healing of the mind and the soul and of every part of our being. And we can’t do this Christian thing alone. There’s something about gathering together with the saints and walking together, carrying one another, bearing each other’s burdens. Because it doesn’t matter who you are, it doesn’t matter how strong you are, the day’s going to come when you’re not going to be strong, for whatever reason.

Eventually if you live long enough, you get old and you need physical help, but every one of us faces times of tumult, times of tragedy. And it’s just part of the normal day-to-day life. But we also face facts of imperfections. And when you’re around a community of grace who picks you up and dusts you off and carries you along, that gives you the power, the capacity and the power to do the same for someone else as well.

And there’s something really extraordinary about the church. The church is ordinary on one level. I’ve been involved in a number of churches over the years. I’ve seen thousands of churches around the world, and they’re all pretty much the same. They’re just a bunch of ordinary people just getting on with their ordinary lives.

But there’s something extraordinary about what takes place in that you get people, all different backgrounds, all kinds of bizarre people get brought into the church and yet they are transformed by the gospel and by the grace of God. But it’s not just by the concepts of the grace of God, it’s by the reality of living with other people who actually experience that love and then let that love flow, flow through them to others.

And I have been massively healed, not just by individual people, but by the entire community of the church. And the church is a blessing. It’s part of God’s grace to us. And there’s something, there’s some kind of proving of us, a character building in this whole process. I really do believe that this world and the church is boot camp for the real thing that’s going to come later on. And this is our training, this is our training ground. And it just comes in the ordinary everyday things like forgiving your brother or sister when they sin against you or helping someone in need of praying for the person who’s sick, or calling to account someone who’s doing something which is bringing the word of God into disrepute, that kind of thing.

And the people who love me the most are also the people who tell me off, the people who correct me when I’m wrong, and they have the track record of caring for me in the past. And you have to listen to them, you have to hear them.

There is safety in numbers, which you just simply can’t have by yourself. So yeah, I just think this is a very practical, very human part of this letter of James. He’s not casting us as having to be cosmic saints who float around 15 centimetres off the ground. There’s something very real here, very earthy. But it’s still all of God’s goodness and grace.

[01:04:28] Anthony: Yeah, it is very earthy. And I think of several instances where Jesus is healing someone physically, but he’s doing something rather extraordinary in that he’s restoring them to community, whether it be the woman who had 12 years of the flow of blood, who had been seen as unclean and outside of the synagogue or the leper. Part of the healing goes way beyond just the physical aspect of the sickness they endured, their disease.

But rather being restored to community. It is in community, truly, that we experience healing. And of course, it makes sense. God as Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit, the triune God, is a community. And the church, like you say, is made up of just, as I often say, it’s people that I probably wouldn’t be friends with otherwise.

But God brings us together and calls us together, and we learn to love one another. And I like what you said that that carries on it. It echoes into eternity, and these are the things we will be doing ongoing because this is the divine life.

David, you’re a beloved child of God, and I love the way that you’re working out your sonship as you actively join Jesus in relationship and ministry. So, I want to deeply thank you for being a part of this podcast.

I also want to thank our team of people who make this happen. Michelle Hartman, Reuel Enerio, and Elizabeth Mullins all provide a great service in bringing the gospel of Jesus Christ forward in this podcast. And so, I want to say thank you each and all.

David, it’s our tradition here on Gospel Reverb to end with prayer. And so, I’d like to invite you to speak words of life over us.

[01:06:14] David: That would be my privilege to do.

Father, we thank you that you are an unvarying God, that you have given us your own son. You shared him with us, and then he has shared you with us, and he has opened our hearts to you.

Father, we pray that as we open our hearts to you, and you pour your Spirit into our hearts, that we will open our hearts to those around us in the church and in the world around us. And that we will speak words of life and live a life which challenges the world around us, in Jesus name. Amen. Amen.

The post David Kowalick—Year B Propers 17-21 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Hello Gospel Reverb listeners!Due to unforeseen circumstances, the August episode will be delayed. Please check back on August 15 for the updated release. We apologize for any inconvenience and appreciate your patience....

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John MacMurray—Year B Propers 13-16

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello friends and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest, John McMurray. For over 45 years, John has taught the Bible, theology, and photography in churches and schools, serving in both staff and non-staff leadership roles. Known best for communicating with university age students, he has led college groups, served as an adjunct professor of Bible Literature, and taught for various school and organizations internationally.

And a lifetime of teaching led John to start and direct the Northwest School of Theology and the Open Table Conferences. John is also an award-winning landscape nature photographer. Somewhat of a rarity in the world of professional photographers, he still captures images on film using a large format camera. I love it, John — old school! His images have appeared in Sierra Club, National Geographic, and Audubon.

So, John, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb. We’d love to know you a little bit about your story and how you’re joining with Jesus these days.

John: Thanks, Anthony. It’s a pleasure to be here. It’s a privilege to be here. Boy, we could spend a lot of time on just the first question, but we won’t. I’ll just maybe go through a couple of quick things. I went to a Bible college and worked in ministry for about four years. Went on after that to seminary, and then after seminary, I took another position in ministry pastoring in a church with a couple other of people.

And about two years after that, all during that time, Anthony, I felt unsettled. And what it was I just felt like I loved the idea of talking to people about Jesus and theology and philosophy and their worldview and just how they’re living, all that kind of stuff. Especially, like you mentioned earlier, with university students, because those are the people that I think a lot of times are just asking a lot of questions and trying to figure out who they are and what life’s about. And so there seems to be a more openness and a more willingness to communicate, to talk about it.

I would do that, and I love doing that, but I just had this unsettledness about ministry as a job, as a vocation, like taking a paycheck from it. And so, I quit, and I became a nature photographer, and that’s been my career. That’s how I’ve made a living, but I continued to do ministry as a volunteer throughout my life.

And as you said, that led me to starting, back in 2007, the school, Northwest School of Theology, which is a week-long intensive. And we bring in teachers, speakers, authors and ask them to talk about something, put it on the table so that we can discuss it.

It’s not a lecture thing. It’s not a “here, I’m going to share with you all of my research, and I want you to agree with me.” It’s really open, and every question is welcomed. We want it to be a place where maybe you haven’t been allowed to ask questions before, but this is a place where you can, and you’ll be treated with dignity and respect.

Because I don’t think God’s afraid of questions. I just don’t. I think that’s the nature of relationship, isn’t it? It’s communication and sharing in what we’re learning and thinking, so that it actually transforms our lives. So, we welcome that.

And I started that back in 2007 because I was involved with some people over in Europe in a mission and they wanted to put something together like a — I don’t even know what to call it; they called it creech. That was the word they had. That’s a Slovene word. But the idea was just for the young people to have a place where they could go. And if they wanted to dig deeper into the Scriptures or what they mean and what it means to their life, this was something they could do.

And so, I helped them do it, and on the way back home to the States, I was thinking this was great. I love this idea, and I wonder if anybody’s doing it back where I live. And so I poked around a bit, couldn’t find anybody. So, I decided to try and start this, doing it on my own. That was 2007, and we’ve been doing it ever since.

And the Open Table Conference grew out of that. And I’ll just say this real quick. I think the thing that makes it unique, because there are a lot of — I don’t know, I don’t even know what to call them — just conferences. The amount of information that’s available to you on the internet, you’ll never get through it all in your lifetime.

So, it’s not like we needed another thing. But what I didn’t find was a panel of people trying to facilitate a discussion about something on a regular, consistent, continuous basis. It was always a single individual, more of a lecture. That’s the default mode almost of how at least I learned when I went to school.

And I just felt like there’s a better way to do it. So instead of having, say, one teacher reflect and teach you what they learned from studying the book of John, you have six teachers discussing what they’ve all learned so that you have the opportunity to hear this back and forth of pros and cons of different thoughts and perspectives so that the Spirit can lead you.

I just think that’s just a better way to do it. There’s people who don’t agree and that’s fine. There’s people who do and those are the people that come and then enjoy the conferences and the classes and discussions that we offer online. So that’s what I’m doing. That’s not really your question though.

You’re asking me how I’m participating, and I don’t necessarily see what I would call my activities as the only way or the exclusive way in which I would participate. I think participation is much more — I’m trying to think of the right word here too, I was going to say banal, but that’s not the right word.

It’s just more down to earth. It’s just loving people and being loved and living in the world and bearing witness to the love that has captured your heart. That’s how I’m participating. And sometimes that comes out in the activity of an online discussion. Sometimes it comes out because I mow the lawn for my neighbor.

Does that make sense? I don’t know if I’m making sense there with that.

It does. You mentioned relationship with the School of Theology that it isn’t relationship unfolding. It’s a process of discovery and we’re in relationship with the triune God by the Spirit.

[00:08:10] Anthony: And it’s an unfolding. Sometimes, as you said, it looks like mowing the lawn for a neighbor. Sometimes it’s teaching. Sometimes it’s being a student. It’s entering all of it with this sense of wonder and humility.

And I haven’t yet participated in an Open Table conference setting though. I’m friends with several of the people that you’re talking about who serve as instructors, but one of the comments I’ve received from people who have participated is what you just stated, different viewpoints, but there’s so much love and respect honoring of the other, even in maybe seeing it from a different perspective.

And I think there’s something good and godly about that.

[00:08:54] John: Thanks. I do too. I do too, because I don’t think unity is this — I don’t mean to be trite or use a phrase, but it’s not uniformity. It’s not, we all think the same. It’s that we all are connected to the triune God, and he has included all of us in him.

And that’s the point of union. It’s union with him. And then we all work that out in our uniqueness. And I think that is beautiful. That’s spectacular. I think most of my life as a young man, I thought my goal in life was to try and convince everybody to my point of view. That was assuming that I thought I was right.

And it wasn’t completely arrogant, Anthony, there’s arrogance there. But a lot of it was youth. There was sincerity. I just wanted to tell people about what I discovered, because I assumed what I discovered was true, and a lot of it was. It was changing my life. But we did — I won’t say we, I’ll say, I crossed a line and I think it became more about me being right than it was about a love of the truth.

And that’s not good. That’s not healthy in any way, really. So anyway, yeah, go ahead.

[00:10:22] Anthony: I was going to say, you mentioned that we worked this out uniquely. And I was thinking about that because I do want to ask you about photography. I have not seen your work, but apparently, it’s an exceptional work of art that you’re doing. And I’m just curious, you know when you’re out there taking shots of nature, it goes without saying, on some level, you’ve experienced the wonder and splendor of God. And let me say up front, I apologize. I take photographs with my smartphone. So, I’m not on your level, but I love it.

But tell me how you’ve experienced the presence and just the closeness of God as you’ve captured landscape moments.

[00:11:11] John: Sure. I’d love to do that. I didn’t know if we were going to go there or not, but I welcome that. Let me tell you a story real quick. I was I was going to the country of Chile in South America, and I was going all the way down to an area called Patagonia, which is all the way at the Southern tip of South America.

[00:11:35] Anthony: Sure.

[00:11:36] John: It’s where if you’re going to do an Antarctic expedition, most people will start from the tip of South America and head to Antarctica from there. And so obviously from Portland, Oregon, that took — I don’t know — some crazy number of hours just to get there, 40 some hours, school buses, planes, it was wild.

And the weather in Patagonia is notorious for being bad. It’s a skinny piece of land. If you look at a globe and you look at the bottom of South America, it gets real narrow and all the weather comes off the Pacific, hits the mountains and dumps rain and snow.

And so, the Patagonia ice cap, the glaciers, it’s the largest ice field in the world other than the two poles, the North and South Pole. And that’s because it gets all this bad weather all the time. So, we get there. I was with a couple of friends, and for five days, I don’t even think I saw the sun. Like it was bad. And you just have to, if you’re a backpacker — that’s what I have been doing because the photography I’ve done has been essentially wilderness or nature photography, people or sports or architecture or stuff like that. It’s nature. And I’m backpacking in this weather, and it’s miserable. And I’m miserable because it’s raining and it’s windy and it’s snowing and it’s thundering and lightning. And we can’t even see the mountains that we’ve come to. The sun hasn’t even poked out. And this goes on for five straight days.

And on the fifth day, we’d hiked about, oh, 8 or 10 miles with about 65 pounds on my back. Again, for a backpacker, they’ll know that’s not easy. That’s hard. And we got there and at the end of the day, it started to clear off and. And I told my friend, this is the first even possibility of clearing that we had experienced.

It looked like it was going to clear, but you never know. And I told my friend, I said, if it does clear, I need to get out of where we are because the best photographs are going to be of this area. The area is called Torres del Paine National Park. And so, sure enough, the next morning, clear as a bell, not a cloud in the sky.

It was absolutely gorgeous, stunning. And so, I hiked out, but what that meant was we had to separate. So, he took the tent and the stove. I took some food because my goal was to go out, get across the lake because that’s where the photos would be. And I was just going to literally throw my sleeping bag down on the ground and sleep outside under the stars because it was clear.

And that’s where I would get the photograph in the first light in the morning because I knew that would be the best light on the mountains. So, I hike out 8 or 10 miles, I get across the lake and I’m walking down this gravel road. It’s the only gravel road in the National Park. And this car comes up behind me and it slows down.

And it stops, and I stop, and they roll down the window. And it’s a couple, a man and a woman, man’s driving, woman’s in the passenger seat. And she says to me, are you a photographer? Because I have this gigantic tripod sticking out of my backpack. And I laughed, being from Philadelphia, I wanted to say something really sarcastic, but I didn’t.

And I said, yeah, I am. She said, she looked at the guy, she looked back at me, and she said, could we hang out with you? And I’m like. Okay, I’ll make you a deal. If you’ll take me around in your car, I’ll be more than happy to show you places where you can take photos and stuff like that. So, they said sure.

So, I jumped in the car, and I spent the day with this couple. They were from Germany, and they had a private photography lesson for an entire day in Torres del Paine National Park. And at the end of the day, we had a great time, but they got me to places I would never have been able to get to because I didn’t have a car.

And so, it was great. So, at the end of the day, they’re like, what are you doing? I said I’m just going to spend the night back not far from where you picked me up. And they said we’re staying in this refugio in South America. That’s what they call a hostel is a refugio. And they said, it’s like 10.

Okay. Now remember I haven’t had a shower. I haven’t slept in a bed now for six days. So, the idea for 10 that I can get a hot shower and sleep in a bed. It’s like off the charts, and I’m like, okay, and they said it’s 10 miles from here. It’s going to take 20, 25 minutes’ drive there.

And I said, are you, would you be willing to bring me back here in the morning for the first light? Cause that’s the shot. That’s the picture. That’s what I’ve come here for. And they’re like, absolutely. This is what we want to do. And I’m just like, okay, great.

So, I go with them down to the refugio. I pay my money. I get my key. And as we’re going to our rooms, they go to their room and he comes back to mine and says, Hey, I’m really sorry, but my girlfriend is just too tired. She doesn’t want to get up at five in the morning to go get the first light. And I look at them cause we’re I’m now about 12 miles away from where I need to take the picture.

And it’s like 11:30 at night. The sun comes up in six and a half hours. If I leave right then, I might make it walking. Maybe. And that’s walking through the night. So, I looked at the guy, and I took out my wallet, I took out my passport, and I handed it to him. I said, look, I’ll give you these if you would let me use your car so that you know that I’ll bring the car back.

And he thought about it for a second. He says but what if something happens? You’re not insured. The car, we would be responsible for that. And I said, you’re right. But I would pay for it. He goes, yeah, but I don’t really know you that well.

Okay, so that was that and he went back to his room. So I go into my room, and I’ll be really honest, I was pissed off. I was mad, I was like God, what in the world? So, I take a shower, I repack my pack, and about 2 a.m. in the morning. I start walking and I’ve been walking for almost four hours. It’s about 5:45 a.m. and the sun is not up yet.

There’s light everywhere. It’s dawn and I can see the mountains and there’s these wispy clouds hanging around the mountains. And it’s stunning, but I’m still probably two to three miles away and I’ve only got about 15 minutes. I know I’ll never make it. And I’m just totally, completely discouraged.

I can’t describe this to you. There’s anger. There’s disappointment. There’s just all these emotions running through me. And about five minutes later, these headlights start coming up this dirt road that I’m walking. And my first thought, it was that the couple, and they changed their mind. But it’s a pickup truck and they didn’t have a pickup truck.

And so honest to God, Anthony, I stood in the middle of the road with my hands up. So, this guy was either going to run me over or stop. And obviously, he stopped because I’m still here and I ran to the front and I said, Hey, can you give me a lift just up the road to the lake? He said, sure, hop in. So, I threw my pack in the back, jumped in.

We drove up. I grabbed the pack. I said, thank you. I put it on my backpack, and I ran to the lake. I’m throwing stuff out of my pack. And again, most people don’t know this. You do. But I shoot a four by five camera. That’s what I use. And so, for people that don’t know what that is, imagine like the old cameras, like 150 years ago where people would get under a cloth and put plates in, that’s the camera.

So, I’ve got to put this whole thing together on a tripod and then get under a cloth and focus, do the light measurement, all that stuff, put the film in and then take the shot. So, I’m doing all this as fast as I can because the sun’s starting to hit the peaks. And it’s just, it’s unreal. It’s surreal.

I feel like I’m in a C.S. Lewis novel. It’s that stunning. And I pull the film out. I take a shot. I cover it up. I pull it back out. I turn it around because there’s a piece of film on each side of the slide. I take a second shot because that way I have two in case I don’t develop one of them correctly. And then I sat there, and I just started weeping for so many things, Anthony, like all the disappointment, all the anger of having spent seven days trying to get to this place, this spot to take this photograph and thinking I wasn’t going to be able to do it.

But God got me there and I participated with him, in him, and doing it. And what I saw was not only one of the most amazing sights I’ve ever seen in my life, but I was the only one that saw it literally on the planet of 8 billion people or however many people are on the planet. There was nobody else looking at this sunrise on the peaks of Torres del Paine that day. It was me and God. And I just started weeping. It was a worship experience that was unique. And I’ve had others like that. Maybe not quite as dramatic with the timing and all that stuff.

But that photograph has appeared in National Geographic, on the covers of books. It’s hanging in my house on the wall. It’s beautiful. It’s amazing. I’ve had people look at it and they go, it doesn’t look like a photograph, it looks like a painting. That tells you how surreal it looked, and it was stunning.

And so, like in nature, I could have answered your question in one minute instead of 15 with one word. It’s beauty. Beauty is what stirs my soul. I don’t know if it does to everybody else, but I think it’s universal. I think beauty is the thing that speaks to people, to human beings.

And when you look at the beauty of nature, the question then comes up, why is nature so unnecessarily beautiful? Cause it doesn’t have to be.

[00:22:34] Anthony: It doesn’t have to be. And it’s like our friend Brian Zahn says, beauty will save the world. And there’s nothing more beautiful than our Lord Jesus, and I just felt myself in gratitude that you had that moment. [“Beauty will save the world,” is originally a line from the novel, The Idiot, by Fyodor Dostoevsky.]

And I’m going to look up that photograph because that’s one on our bucket list, Patagonia.

Let’s transition to the lectionary passages that we have in front of us for this month. Our first one is Ephesians 4:1-16. I’m going to be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It’s the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 13 in Ordinary Time, August 4.

I, therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace: 4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high, he made captivity itself a captive; he gave gifts to his people.” 9 (When it says, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things.) 11 He himself granted that some are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. 14 We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine by people’s trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s growth in building itself up in love.

John, what should we know? First, let me backtrack. We know that Scripture is pointing us into truth. And the fullness of truth, as Jesus himself said, is him. So how is the scripture teaching us about this one God and Father of all revealed in this section of scripture?

[00:25:30] John: Oh, man, can you say “loaded question” with me?

Yes, but a great question because this is such a great text. there’s so much here for me. There’s a couple things that I think popped out just on initial, casual reading. And then there’s more that pops out as I actually start thinking about what is being said.

So, for me, Anthony, what it reveals about the one God and Father, the first thing — and this may be like oversimplification, but I think it’s something that we shouldn’t take for granted because there’s a lot of people that don’t.

And that’s this. If what this is saying is true, which we both believe it is, God is for us. God is on our side. All of this stuff, he’s done for us. And I know, again, I grew up with the idea that God was — the vote was out on whether he was on your side or not. He was only on your side if you did what he wanted you to do, if you lived up to your end of the bargain, so to speak. And if you didn’t, if you disobeyed him, he wasn’t on your side. And I don’t see that here. He’s the one God and Father of all, of everyone, and he’s on our side. What he’s done is for everyone. I know there’s people who disagree with that kind of thinking, but that’s one of the things that I see in this text.

The other thing is what for me, it says there’s a — again, I’m trying to think of a good word here. The word that popped in my head was strategy, but God has an intention. This God has — I hesitate to say plan because I don’t know if an infinite being that’s always existed planned anything, if they’ve always known everything. But you know what I mean by using the word plan? He’s set things in motion.

For example, this phrase “the whole body joined and knit together by every ligament,” which is his equip as each part works properly, promotes the body’s growth, building itself up and low. Okay. Who designed that to work that way? God did.

And so, what we were talking about earlier, this is one of the passages that I think helped shape my thinking about when we do these discussions. Do we want an individual teacher, or do we want a panel of people? This passage is talking about the way it works is we’re like ligaments and we’re joined together.

And when we work together, this is what happens. We’re not in isolation. So, I wanted to try and see if we could do this. And for me, it’s just better than the way that I tried to learn and grow in my life as an individual. We were never meant to do it alone and that’s because this God is not alone.

He’s not an isolated individual, right? I hesitate to say he, but I don’t want to say it. God is Father, Son, and Spirit. He’s three persons. He’s a tri personal being. Relationship is at the core, not only of what God is, but of the way in which we live and grow and learn. And that tells me that he has something in mind, and it’s for our good because he’s good and this is the way it works.

And so those are a couple things that popped out to me right off the bat. But can I say something else real quick that’s not necessarily about the one God? It’s more about the way in which he does things. Because the whole text starts with an exhortation, almost a plea. I think there’s some translations, like the one we read actually says, beg. “I beg you to walk in a manner worthy of your calling to which you’ve been called.”

So, this whole text is about how we’re supposed to live in response to this God. And what I love about it is the way we’re supposed to live are the characteristics of this God, the way this God lives. He’s humble, he’s loving, he’s gentle, he’s patient. That’s him and he wants us to live like he does.

And I find that something that for much of my life was elusive because I was trying to get there as an individual. I wasn’t trying to get there through relationship. Does that make sense? It was me and God doing my own personal thing, my own spirituality. Thank you.

Whereas this whole text is going, no, that’s no, that just doesn’t work that way.

[00:31:36] Anthony: He’s the only God, but he’s not a lonely God. And that should be reflective in the way that we live. And as you alluded to, none of us can do it alone. None of us, and we need each other. And I think, theologically, it’s important for us to acknowledge that we belong to each other. There is just a togetherness.

And even listening to you testify about the goodness of God, that he is for us, it strengthens me, John. This is the way it works. Which brings me to the next question I want to ask you.

Paul talks about unity quite a bit —not unitarian, not one — unity amongst the many. Talk to us about that because in verse 3, we see that we already have the unity of the Spirit. We don’t have to somehow make that happen. It already is ours, but we work to maintain it. Why is it such an important topic to Paul and for us, do you think?

[00:32:20] John: I want to go back to what you just said, and I’m just going to tweak it a bit if that’s okay. And then you can tweak back.

We do have this unity. But unless we do what he says, we don’t experience this unity.

[00:32:39] Anthony: Sure.

[00:32:40] John: That’s the difference. Instead, again, I think in my life, I was trying to do things to somehow get this unity. When Paul says, it seems to me what Paul’s saying here is no, you already have it.

This is the truth of your being. This is the nature of who you are. But you need to live in right relationship with it, in harmony with it. And as you do, you’ll actually experience the truth of this, that it’s really true.

And I can’t tell you how much I’ve thought about, worked with, been beat up with, the very first word that comes off his pen, so to speak, or quill, whatever, is humility. I, that is not anybody in my tribe would have said.

If you would ask someone in the culture that I grew up, “Okay. What would be the most important thing you’d want to know about how I should live my life in a way that’s worthy of the calling that God has called me, invited me, and brought me into this relationship with Him? What would you say is the most important thing?” I would have said something like, I don’t know, tell other people, know God, obey him.

And the first thing Paul says is live with humility. And I was stunned by that as a young man because I think humility was elusive to me as a young man.

I got to tell you this story too really quick. I’m sitting in Bible college. I’m a senior. I’m almost done. It’s last semester. I don’t remember the class. I remember the teacher; I remember where I was sitting. And we were sitting in a little desk, one of those things where the arm folds down so you flip it up and you can put your notes or whatever so you can write. And I had it flipped up, and I don’t even know what the guy was talking about, but I remember in my mind, sitting in the class — there’s probably 60, 70 students in this class — and I think, silent prayer, God, I want to be a humble man.

And as soon as I said it, this question popped in my head, and it was: why? And in a moment of unguarded honesty, like I didn’t have my guard up, I went, so that other people will know that I’m humble. And when I realized what I had just thought in this little kind of mini conversation, my head. I literally just crumpled over and put my head on my desk.

And I said, I am so screwed up. You have no concept of what humility is. I want to be humble so other people think I’m humble. That was me at 22 after four years of Bible college.

So, I’ve worked with this a lot or God’s been working in it, in me a lot, and I feel like one of the things that draws me to Jesus is his humility.

I think of Matthew 11, “Come to me all you who labor are heavy laden, I’ll give you rest, take my yoke upon, learn of me, because I am meek, I’m humble, I’m lowly of heart.” It’s not, I’m great, I’m powerful, I’m super intelligent. No, I’m humble, I’m gentle.

And that’s a complete upside down way of looking at life for me. And the thing that’s great about it, Anthony, is that it’s true. It’s beautiful. And it works.

[00:36:55] Anthony: It does. And it does.

[00:36:56] John: Even though it’s upside down.

[00:36:58] Anthony: Yeah. And it brings about unity. I think of John 13, Jesus walks into the room. Scripture tells us that all authority is his heaven on earth. Not to put it in the modern-day vernacular, but that’s what I’m doing. He’s large and in charge and he knows it.

And so, every eye in the room is on him when he walks in. So, what does he do? He quietly and with great humility gets up from his reclining place and washes his disciples’ feet. This is what Jesus does because this is who he is. God can only do what he is. And therefore, unity is brought about with great humility. And I’m just so grateful that our Lord.

So, whenever we talk about humility, bringing about you unity, we don’t have to work something up. That is just an example for Jesus isn’t just an example. He abides in us. So, by the power of the Spirit, humility can actually flourish —hallelujah, praise God — and bring about this unity we desire.

Hey, we’ve got a transition to our next pericope for the month. It is Ephesians 4:25 – 5:2. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 14 in Ordinary Time on August 11.

John, I’d be grateful if you’d read it, please.

[00:38:18] John: Absolutely.

So then, putting away falsehood, let each of you speak the truth with your neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not make room for the devil. 28 Those who steal must give up stealing; rather, let them labor, doing good work with their own hands, so as to have something to share with the needy. 29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths but only what is good for building up, as there is need, so that your words may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption. 31 Put away from you all bitterness and wrath and anger and wrangling and slander, together with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you. 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children, 2 and walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

[00:39:27] Anthony: John, you’re a preacher teacher, and I want to give you a chance to preach. If you were focusing on this gospel declaration, what would you zoom in on? And let’s go ahead and add that second question that I wanted to share and ask with you about grieving the Holy Spirit.

What would you talk about with the congregation?

[00:39:47] John: Yeah. Great congregation. Great another great text. In fact, the second half of Ephesians that we’re reading is awesome. Thanks for giving me this passage. This is awesome.

If I’m going to preach this — and I’m not a preacher — but if I were to preach it, I’d call my sermon, “Be imitators of God.” Because that’s like the end but then he describes what he means by that. And that’s what’s been going on is this description of what it means to imitate God, to walk worthy of your calling.

And in a phrase for me, Anthony, it’s walk in love as Christ loved us. But I walk in love because I am a beloved child. In other words, the love doesn’t initiate with me. It initiates with him. It’s like what John said. We love him because he first loved us. So, because I’m a beloved child, live this way, live in love.

And what does that look like? It looks like kindness, tenderness, and gentleness and forgiveness, not just forgiveness, but forgiveness like God has forgiven, which means I don’t bring it back. I don’t I don’t step on your throat again when it comes back up.

That’s where I would want to spend time. I’d want to talk about what does it look like to live a life of love? Love, it’s an overworked word, and it’s used with such, I think, commonness that we don’t really think about how powerful it is. You mentioned Brian Zahn said beauty will save the world. And Brian and I have had this discussion and I always go, beauty slash love, because we talk about that a lot.

So that’s where I would go. I’m not going to preach it. That’s where I would go if I were to preach it.

As far as grieving the Holy Spirit, and again, for me, contextually, immediately, the immediate phrases around it have to do with what’s coming out of our mouth, with the way that we speak and talk and relate to one another.

And if we do this with bitterness and wrath and anger and slander and malice, this grieves the Spirit of God. God doesn’t do things like that. Also notice it doesn’t say this makes the Spirit of God want to punish you. It doesn’t say that, although that’s the theology I grew up with. It says it grieves him, it breaks his heart, and I’ve had my heart broken, I’m sure you have too, and I don’t ever want to experience that again.

And so, when I think about things that I say or do, if I’m living in a life that’s not loving toward others, it’s breaking his heart. And that actually says something to me. It moves me. I don’t want to break his heart. I don’t. And when I realize that it does — and again, I realize I’m, like you said, using popular vernacular here, but that’s how I think of it. It helps me avoid and pay attention to the exhortation to live in love. And forgive as he forgave me.

[00:43:31] Anthony: I appreciate you putting it in its context because as we like to say a biblical text without a context is a pretext to a proof text, right? And I’ve done it; I’ve proof texted before. And the entire context is Jesus.

And you’re talking about grieving the Holy Spirit and avoiding speaking with bitterness, wrath, anger, wrangling, and so on, immediately what came to my mind was our Lord on the cross. And if anyone had the divine right, so to speak, to speak with bitterness, it would have been Jesus in that moment. But his words, “Our Father, forgive them.” And all our wrongheadedness being brought to bear in that moment, and yet he speaks such words of tenderness and love and forgiveness.

And this is why even when we come to the Scriptures, yes, we speak of theology, but it starts with Christology. Who is this Christ and what has he said? And that’s what he says. And I think that’s our way forward, that we do the same, even in the face of a world that wants to speak bitterness and wrath, right?

[00:44:52] John: Absolutely.

Just think about the movies you watch and how much vengeance is the key motive in the plot.

[00:44:59] Anthony: That’s right. We’re so punitive. Yeah.

[00:45:01] John: Yeah. And what you were saying, I agree with so much, Anthony. And all of that is in the first half of this letter; we’re not reading that, but he’s already laid that down for us. This is all about Jesus. He’s the foundation. And yeah, I would just encourage people that if you’re listening to what we’re saying, go back and read the first couple chapters of the letter, what we call chapters. And you’ll see what Anthony’s talking about the Christology.

[00:45:37] Anthony: Oh my gosh, just sweeping text, sweeping!

All right. Our third passage of the month is Ephesians 5:15-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 15 and Ordinary Time, which is August 18. And it reads,

Be careful, then, how you live, not as unwise people but as wise, 16 making the most of the time, because the days are evil. 17 So do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 as you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to one another, singing and making melody to the Lord in your hearts, 20 giving thanks to God the Father at all times and for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

So, John, what does it mean to make the most of the time since these days are evil? Help us understand.

[00:46:36] John: I’m not sure I can, but I’ll give it a shot.

[00:46:39] Anthony: Sure.

[00:46:40] John: What I can tell you — I’m better at telling you what it doesn’t mean, what I used to think it meant. We used to use this text as a proof text, as you just mentioned, for why we should be out telling everybody about Jesus all day long because time’s running out. People need to know, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

It’s nowhere in the context of anything that’s being talked about here, but what is in the context, what Paul has been saying, in fact, what he started this with was, “I beg you, live a life in a manner that’s worthy of the calling that you’ve been called with.”

What does it mean to make the most of the time? It means to live that way. In a manner that’s worthy. Don’t waste your time. Can you drink wine? Yeah. But don’t waste it by getting drunk. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Make the most of your time because the opportunity to live a life of love is now.

It’s not next year. It’s not next month. It’s not when you die and blah blah go to heaven. It’s now, because we bear witness to this fact and on top of all of it, if we haven’t gotten this yet from the passages we’ve already read, if you’re a pragmatist, this is actually the way it works. If you can waste the opportunities and then you’re going to blame God — and I’ve done that and I’ve had friends do that. And what ends up happening is bitterness starts to sink in and get a hold of us.

These are all the things that he’s been talking about. So, I think the will — let me put it this way, Anthony. Again, I’ll try and make it more concise. He says, understanding what the will of the Lord is, we know what that is. He already told us that a couple paragraphs earlier. The wisdom comes in actually living this way. Instead of wasting my time and choosing to live a different way. And if for no other reason you can say to your pragmatist friend, it actually works There’s better reasons than that.

Obviously. I think that’s my shot at it. Yours,

[00:49:09] Anthony: I think you’ve said it. And I like what you just said, you can get to the most basic pragmatic level, and hey, we’ve got to start somewhere. But this is the life, again going back to what you said, this is who God is; he’s not wasting time. He wastes beauty on us, but he’s not wasting time. He’s the lord of it.

He’s redeeming it, and man, we want to get in on what he’s doing! John, for me, this walk with the Lord is often really just growing in my awareness by the Spirit, of what he’s doing and just hitching my ride to him. And it looks like this. It looks like this, and by the way, he says sing psalms and hymns.

So, are you ready to sing live for us for our listening audience? No

[00:50:00] John: No. Not going to happen.

[00:50:02] Anthony: Come on, John.

[00:50:04] John: That would not minister grace to you.

[00:50:09] Anthony: Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Let’s pivot to our final passage because there’s a lot here to get to. It’s Ephesians 6:10-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 16 and Ordinary Time, which is August 25.

John, we’d be grateful if you’d read it.

[00:50:26] John:

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power; 11 put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, 12 for our struggle is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to withstand on the evil day and, having prevailed against everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand, therefore, and belt your waist with truth and put on the breastplate of righteousness 15 and lace up your sandals in preparation for the gospel of peace. 16 With all of these, take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray in the Spirit at all times in every prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert and always persevere in supplication for all the saints. 19 Pray also for me, so that when I speak a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak.

[00:51:45] Anthony: Amen. Verse 12, I’m quoting it, “for our struggle is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.”

Help us to consider, make an attempt, what the Spirit is inspiring here to be written, within the context of “the strength of his power,” when Paul begins or how Paul begins this pericope. I think it’s important to have that context. What’s going on here?

[00:52:20] John: All right. I’ll give it a shot. But part of this one, Anthony, because I think the context is actually back in the pericope where he’s talking about submission, and he brings up husbands and wives and the church and all that stuff.

And so, I think there’s a continuity between this mutual submission idea and the armor of God. And that’s where strength lies. Strength lies in mutually submitting to God and to one another. Like we didn’t look at that passage, but it’s there. It’s in between the two that we did read.

So, I think that’s the immediate context. I also like the fact that Paul used — it would be like you and I using computers to illustrate something that is true or real in our life. And we make an illustration out of it. And he, I think that’s what he’s doing here.

He’s picking up something that everybody’s familiar with, the armor of a soldier that everybody knows. Most of that world is occupied by Roman soldiers. And you look at him and say, yeah you want to protect, guard you with these things, but this isn’t something that you provide for yourself, and I think that’s important. I think that’s key.

What he’s telling us to do is to experience it. Put it on. He didn’t say make it. He didn’t say create it. He didn’t say polish it, develop it. He just said put it on. You have it. It’s there, and what is this that I’m putting on? It’s this perspective of submission to what the will of the Lord is in my relationship with him and with each other.

That makes sense to me. That’s not the way I learned it. Like I said, that’s why I said give it a shot. I’ll stop. Your thoughts?

[00:54:32] Anthony: Yeah, I like the fact that you brought in chapter 5 as context. And I heard you say earlier, “what we call chapters.” It’s a letter, right? I mean it helps us read it in the modern day, but boy oh boy, to isolate individual scriptures, which is so what we do and build a whole dogmatic statement. I think it gets us in so much trouble.

And you’ve talked and you’ve alluded to several times having to unlearn things. I’ve had to do the same. I grew up in a legalistic environment, had to unlearn so much because I thought God was aloof. And he was over in his corner, and I was fine because if he came over to my corner, he’d see all the wrongdoing and he wouldn’t want to hang out with me anyway.

So, when we think about unlearning. Let’s take it down to this whole armor of God perspective. What might be still lingering in people’s minds and hearts that they would have to unlearn? And I know it’s, again, it’s an attempt, but anything stand out where people have used this in a way that just falls short of the goodness and glory of God?

[00:55:49] John: Oh man, we could go with this in a lot of different dimensions. Yeah, here’s one because the metaphor is of a soldier and the armor that the soldier wears.

[00:56:03] Anthony: Yes.

[00:56:04] John: We immediately think that it’s a violent task, a warring task, and it is a war task, but it’s not a warring task against another person.

It’s against these powers; this evil one. It’s not another human being. But yeah. Again, you asked me about unlearning. The way it was always presented to me was stand up against this person, condemn this action, condemn this statement whatever, whether you’re talking about politics, but it usually becomes a moral issue.

And I’m not saying that it’s not that morality is not involved here, but I don’t think that’s the primary thing that’s going on. That’s why I went back to chapter 5. I think the primary thing is this living in submission. But that would be one thing is our tendency to violence with something like this.

The other thing I already mentioned was our tendency to think that we somehow create this armor or make the armor better by how we improve or what we do. There’s none of that here. It’s just, you’ve made too much of this, just put it on. Live a life that’s worthy of the calling.

And look at the things that he’s telling you to put on. Has he not talked about these things earlier in this letter? Truth, righteousness, the gospel, faith, these are all there.

That’s a couple things that I would say that I’m still unlearning. Because the problem with learning something a certain way for me, Anthony, especially when it’s the first time you learn something, it never really goes away.

It’s like your default button. It’s always there and you can always go back to it because it was the first time you heard it. And I have to remind myself or listen to the Spirit reminding me.

I loved what you said earlier that your life is becoming more and more of just simply trying to listen and hear and become aware of what God is doing so that you can participate in it. You can be a part of it.

I think that’s much closer to what life actually is supposed to look like than the way we typically do it. I’m going to get myself girded up. I can tell you, I can remember youth sermons, and the title of the sermon was, Gird Yourself Up. And again, I get it because Paul has said, put this on.

But the emphasis was all about what you do, and you make this happen. And I’m like, yeah, I tried that, and it didn’t work.

[00:58:58] Anthony: That’s right. And we have a bent toward violence. And this is why it’s so important to know the context is Jesus the Christ, because you can read the Old Testament and get so askew of who God is because of the violence we see there.

But it’s the same God in Jesus Christ that told Peter to put down his sword. It is the same God nonviolent at the cross. This is the God revealed in Jesus Christ and man, there is so much unlearning that goes on with that. And that’s why we keep coming back to the gospel. And this is why we bear testimony, bear witness to it because it is so easy to go back to the default setting of retribution

And this is not a God who is of retributive justice. He’s redemptive justice. He redeems things. And so it’s so important to look to him as we talk about what can be abuse, to look like a very aggressive, violent thing toward other people. But that’s not the God revealed in Jesus. It’s just not.

The beauty is as we share these gospel texts, we have listeners all around the globe that are preaching and teaching, and they’re Bible students. And it’s so interesting how, when I give a sermon, I think this is the point and somebody has heard something else that has been inspired for them. And that’s the beauty of this.

And so, I think there’s a lot that’s good news that we’ve already talked about. Thank you for being with us, John. You are a beloved child of God. You’re fearfully, wonderfully made in his image and likeness. And it’s a joy to know you as a brother, keep doing what you’re doing.

And I want to thank our podcast team. They do such a great job. As we talked about in these passages of Ephesians, nobody can do it alone. I can’t do it alone. Reuel Enerio is just a terrific podcast producer. He’s a digital content creator. My wife, Elizabeth, does the transcript so you can read every word that John said and hold him in account, call him up.

And I’m just so grateful that you’re here, John. And as is our tradition on Gospel Reverb, we like to close in prayer. And I’d invite you to say a word of praise for us.

[01:01:14] John: Absolutely. Before I do that, Anthony, thank you for having me and I’m honored and privileged to be able to do it and talk about it. I’m always stunned when someone says, “John, what do you think about this?” And really, you want to know what I think about this. So, thank you very much.

Let’s pray.

Father, you are good and you’re good all the time. You know no other way of being; you can’t be any other way. And for that, we need to be reminded.

And so thank you for reminding us this morning through these texts of your goodness, your love, your humility, your gentleness, your kindness, your forgiveness — all of these things. And the way that you treat us, the way you relate to us, all of us, you don’t show favoritism or prejudice towards anyone. This is true for everybody, and I’m so grateful that it’s true for me, and I’m learning it.

And I pray that you’ll take our words this morning, take your text, and as Anthony prayed earlier at the beginning, that what we need to hear, each of us, the Spirit, you would take that, and just remind us. Don’t let us go until we get it, pound us, and the ones that we’re doing well in, ah, sometimes we need some encouragement. And so, help us with that, as well to know that this is a good thing. Keep going.

We are so grateful that you not only offer us direction and guidance like this in our lives, but you provide it. So, we trust you. We worship you. We love you. And we thank you for today, in Jesus’ great name.

[01:03:06]Anthony: Amen.

The post John MacMurray—Year B Propers 13-16 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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The Fullness of God w/ Simon Dent

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest, Simon Dent. Simon is the lead pastor of the Coromandel Valley Uniting Church, often referred to as the CoroUniting Church, near the city of Adelaide, Australia. I got connected with Simon through our mutual friend and a previous podcast guest, Jenny Richards. Thanks, Jenny.

The Uniting Church believes in God as the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. They believe God is at work, hallelujah, reconciling the whole of creation in Christ, and that they are called to be coworkers in that vision, and that’s a vision we can all get behind. Simon is married to Carolyn, and they have three daughters, Jessie, Tilly, and Trinity.

Simon, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d like to get to know you a little bit, about your story and how you’re joining with Jesus’ work these days.

[00:01:49] Simon Dent: Yeah. Thanks Anthony. It’s great to be with you. And I’ve just really been blessed by listening to the Gospel Reverb episodes in the past.

Yeah, it’s been a wonderful joy for me to share and walk with Jesus as a minister in the Uniting Church. I actually became a believer when I was 21 years old. I grew up in a troubled family and was really seeking to know something of God, the love and the meaning of life.

I basically got loved into the kingdom by a group of people who joined me, asked me to play volleyball with them through the youth group. And I was 21 years old and just drawn into that. And there was a moment when I went to a church camp and the Spirit just pointed me again to Jesus and actually said, “Can’t you just see how much I love you? Just come.”

And I had all sorts of questions I needed to work out. But he said, look, we’ll work on these questions as we go. The main thing is for you to know my love for you. And it just transformed my life, that moment. And from that moment, I just got to join with Jesus in sharing the gospel with people.

And yes, I’ve been doing that for nearly 20 years now in the Uniting Church. And I started off actually as a TV cameraman, so I was doing that for 15 years. So, it’s been quite a changing career. It’s been a great joy for me to do that.

[00:03:26] Anthony Mullins: I’m just fascinated by the way you phrased it: you were loved into the kingdom through volleyball. What a beautiful image, and God is at work in our play, in our work. Hallelujah, praise him! May we all be loved further and further into the kingdom.

All right, let’s do this. We have several lectionary passages we’re going to be discussing today.

Mark 6:1-13, “Shake It Off”

Ephesians 1:3-14, “Chosen”

Ephesians 2:11-22, “But Now”

Ephesians 3:14-21, “The Fullness of God”

The first passage of the month is Mark 6:1-13. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 9 in Ordinary Time, July 7.

He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. 2 On the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, “Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 Then Jesus said to them, “Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown and among their own kin and in their own house.” 5 And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. 6 And he was amazed at their unbelief. Then he went about among the villages teaching. 7 He called the twelve and began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. 8 He ordered them to take nothing for their journey except a staff: no bread, no bag, no money in their belts, 9 but to wear sandals and not to put on two tunics. 10 He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave the place. 11 If any place will not welcome you and they refuse to hear you, as you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.” 12 So they went out and proclaimed that all should repent. 13 They cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them.

Simon, Jesus was on his home turf in Nazareth, and the thought process is that the locals will receive their homegrown prophet, right? And yet, they found him offensive, and as a result, they didn’t experience his power full on.

What should we know and learn from this?

[00:06:13] Simon Dent: I think one of the main things we need to know and learn from this is we just take Jesus on his own terms and not just to look at him through the lens of our own weakness. There’s a phrase we will know: familiarity breeds contempt.

And I think I’m particularly challenged by verse 5, which says, Jesus could not do a deed of power there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and cured them. Man, if we were doing that, we would be pretty amazed, wouldn’t we?

But he was amazed at their unbelief. I think they had such a low expectation of Jesus because they saw him through their own shame. And they desperately needed him not to show up their own weakness. He was one of them. We have this idea that we know what people from Nazareth are like and what they should do.

And to have a guy who stands before them doing these amazing deeds of power with the anointing of the Holy Spirit (as Luke picks up in his version of this story), to proclaim the good news to the poor, freedom for prisoners, recovery of sight for the blind, setting the oppressed free. Oh, absolutely amazing!

But guys from Nazareth don’t do that. And so, his glory, his humanity really showed them up. We probably understand this from my cultural context in Australia. We have a very high value on egalitarianism, but we also have this phenomenon called the tall poppy syndrome. And we basically can tend to criticize or cut down people if they’re too successful, primarily because they show the rest of us up.

We don’t like being shown up by their success. I went to high school, and we had a nine-year-old who was doing year 12 maths. And he was this amazing guy. And man, did I look dumb next to him in terms of maths ability.

So, I think the beauty of Jesus’ humanity here really showed the ugliness of theirs, and they had a real problem with that. And they couldn’t see that, like all of us, they’ve got two choices. They can either give themselves to his beauty, to his grace, by him taking them in all of their brokenness. Or they could just push Jesus away. And they either see Jesus through the lens of their own failure, or they try and take him from his own word as to who he is.

The apostle Paul talks about the offense of the cross. I think the similar thing is going on here. If we live in the denial of our corruption or our need for God to remake humanity in Jesus’ death, then his death is going to be an offense and a good reason, ultimately, for us to reject Jesus. The writer of Hebrews in chapter 2 says, “He had to become like us, his brothers and sisters, in every respect, so that he might become the merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of people.” [verse 17]

So yes, we can see familiarity can breed contempt, but familiarity saves us. And thank God that Christ has become one with us. And his kindness and his knowledge of our humanity, his familiarity, what it meant to be human and his death on the cross — in all of that, leads us to repentance and a change of mind about who Jesus is.

Romans 2 also says, “Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” [verse 4] What might we hear in this? I think we need to hear something in terms of our expectations of what Jesus can do amongst us.

That we take Jesus on his own terms and not just look at him through the lens of our own powerless humanity. And in many ways, just start seeing him as he is. And allow our expectations to rise as what Jesus might actually do through us and in the world as we just see him, rather than just see him through the lens of our own human brokenness.

[00:11:02] Anthony Mullins: Well said. Can anything good come out of Nazareth, right? The very best thing can. And I can remember feeling as a young kid, because I came from a small town in the hills of Kentucky, feeling less than. But what matters is the power and presence of God at work in the lives of people, regardless of where we’re from.

And I tell you what, it’s a sport over here, Simon, where we love to build people up, but we love just as much, maybe even more lustily, to tear them down. And you’ve pointed out that was at work here in this passage.

Simon, Jesus told his disciples to shake off the dust as a way of showing that their testimony, the good news wasn’t received. And as I was thinking about this, I thought of the contrast of Jesus, who is the embodiment, the fullness of good news, when he spoke the words of forgiveness from the cross, he wasn’t received by his own. So, in thinking of that, help us understand and maybe reconcile, as it were, the difference and how it impacts our participation in God’s mission to the world.

[00:12:16] Simon Dent: Yeah. Because the question behind that is, will Jesus dust off his feet to me, in a sense, if someone’s not [inaudible]. And so, I think we really need to make a distinction between who Jesus is and what Jesus has done for the whole world in his death and resurrection, and ultimately what the disciples are called to do as witnesses and proclaimers of what Jesus has done.

I don’t think we are saying here that Jesus is going to see anybody in the world and say, you are the ones that I’ll accept, and you are the ones I won’t, because before the foundation of the world he died for us. None of us are worthy of God’s mercy and grace. It was just his pure unadulterated love for all sinners in the world.

So that Jesus’ own reality to the people, those who receive him, those who reject him is not a sign necessarily of his love or what he’s done for them on the cross.

So, I think what Jesus is ultimately saying in that phrase (if they don’t receive you, dust wipe the dust off your feet), he’s basically saying to the disciples, just this is a warning for them. It’s, in some ways, a symbol for them that they’ve got to put their faith and their hope in Christ because they can’t save themselves according to their own efforts.

But it’s also to the disciples to recognize your own responsibility and what is actually possible for you. What are the limits of what you can actually achieve?

I was really helped some years ago by a book by Andrew Purves, The Crucifixion of Ministry. You may have read it. One of the things that’s so profound from there is as soon as I take up my ministry as my ministry Jesus will gladly crucify us on that. It’s a mercy where he says, no, it all belongs to me.

And sometimes we can look at our friends and we can — even every Sunday when I get up and I start preaching the gospel, I think this is amazing. Everybody’s just going to bow down and worship God and hear this. And often there’s just dull faces where, yeah, we heard this before.

And I sometimes think, man, if I know I could take the power of the Spirit that is in Christ and allow people to see these things and their lives is suddenly going to change. And I just realized there are limits as to what I ultimately can do.

I think what Jesus is saying here. When you’re going into a town and you’re sharing the good news of the gospel, and people are not responding. And it might even be a close friend of ours, that we’re just sharing about Jesus, and they’re just not responding. We have no reason why they are not responding, reacting in the way that we’ve reacted to that. So, Jesus is actually saying move on.

There are other people who do actually welcome that, and don’t spend all of your time and your energy in some ways, trying to do something which in your own strength are not going to be able to do, but turn around. There’s maybe somebody else in that town or that community that’s really going to respond to the gospel.

And Luke calls these people the persons of, the people of peace, people in some ways who God has already prepared to receive the gospel. Bring that word to them. And ultimately, we’ll leave everybody in the hands of God here. God is a God of mercy and grace, but for those of us who are called to bear witness to the gospel amongst our friends and in our families, realize that we can’t raise the dead. But we’re called to proclaim the wonders of Christ.

And if some people are closing their eyes to that, it doesn’t mean we stop loving them, or we stop praying for them. But it does mean don’t get so uptight as though somehow, it’s up to us to try and bring salvation to these people. Move on to others who may actually be more responsive to the gospel.

[00:16:25] Anthony Mullins: Yeah. Go with those that want to go with you. And likewise, and I love what you said about the book from Purves, Crucifixion of Ministry. And another way I see that at work, you mentioned when you preach a good one, you think everybody’s going to receive this.

But on the flip side of that, I’ve given some real stinkers of sermons thinking, oh, I’ve just let everyone down. And that’s when people respond. It’s just an extraordinarily humiliating, but in the most positive way, thing to realize it’s Christ’s ministry. It’s not mine. His good purposes are going to prevail with or without me, but he chooses to do it with me.

Hallelujah. Praise God.

[00:17:10] Simon Dent: That’s brilliant. So good to know that Jesus is the one in control of his ministry and his love. And he invites us into that amazing gift of what he’s actually already doing. And just to put our trust and our hope in that means you can have a dud of a sermon or an amazing sermon, that ultimately doesn’t really matter because Christ is at work.

[00:17:34] Anthony Mullins: Yes, Simon, it allows you to exhale. And just be like, ah the pressure’s off. There is a response ability by the Spirit, if you will, we can respond to what God is doing, but that’s it. He’s already at work. So, Lord, give us eyes to see what you’re doing and the courage just to join in with our whole hearts.

Let’s pivot to our next passage of the month. It’s Ephesians 1:3-14. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 10 and Ordinary Time on July 14. Simon, would you read it for us, please?

[00:18:18] Simon Dent: Love to.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and insight 9 he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; 14 this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory.

[00:20:00] Anthony Mullins: Whew, man that’s some full-on good news right there. I tell you what, this pericope is a theological tour de force. So, I want to give you a few minutes here just to riff on the good news contained within. So, preach, preacher. Let us hear it.

[00:20:22] Simon Dent: When you gave me this passage, I was thinking, Oh man, this is brilliant, what a great passage to talk about.

And then I thought five seconds later, man, how can I ever do this justice? It is such a vision of the amazing grace of God that’s come to us in Jesus Christ. And the drawing in of us by the Father in all that Christ is in his relationship in the power of the Spirit. And it’s just a beautiful gift for those of us who don’t deserve such an amazing thing. And yet it is God’s heart and is God’s love upon us, which flows out of this.

One of the things that we’re preaching and teaching on a text like this — it’s so easy for us to pull out the component parts and somehow lose the fact that this is really just an overflow of Paul’s heart. It’s an expression of worship and praise to God, as God has revealed all that he has done in Christ. And we just need to join with him [Paul] in praise, in some ways.

And the challenge is trying to hold onto the fact that — maybe it’s not a challenge — actually the joy of this is that we get to hold on to the great joy of this relationship that God has given to us in Christ. It’s so big and in some ways, you have — how do we even start with this? But I’ll have a go.

One of the key echoes in all of this is that we are in Christ. We are joined together in the relationship that Jesus himself has with his Father through the power of the Spirit. And that’s staggering and wonderful. And Paul goes into some theological depth as to what ultimately that means.

One of the key words in the very first passage — of verse 3, sorry, speaks of “bless” three times. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. The word there for bless is eulogetos, and it’s the word that we get eulogy from — a eulogy at a funeral where you speak words of praise to the dead loved one who’s just passed.

And so, he uses this word as the blessing or the praises from us towards God, praising God for all that he’s done. But the second time, the same word of bless is used actually from the Father, that the father has blessed us, or in some ways, the Father has eulogized us in Christ.

In other words, the word that Jesus says that the Father says about us is a word of God’s praise. Because we’re actually in Christ. What I mean by that is God has eulogized or spoken a good word about us. God has noticed us. He said something about us. And we all desire to be noticed and loved and what a blessing that is.

And God speaks that good word to us. And the word that he’s spoken is the word of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1 says, “Long ago, God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days, he’s spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things.” [verse 1]

So, Jesus is the good word, the word of praise, the word of joy, that the Father actually speaks about us, speaks to us. Every spiritual blessing in Christ, every good thing that can be said in heaven, we have in Christ. His relationship with the Father, his dynamic of love and the Holy Spirit, the freedom that he has, freedom from our own sin and our own brokenness, all of that has actually been given to us in Jesus Christ.

That’s what ultimately that blessing is for each of us. It is incomprehensible, but it’s true. Particularly when we’re so aware of our own sin and our shame this is an amazing grace, but it is all a part of a plan, as Paul says. And the plan says for the fullness of time to gather all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

So, when you get up, you look around the world, you look at yourself in the mirror, you look at our churches, our families, we say God’s got a plan. He’s going to gather all of this up in Christ. And that’s ultimately where our hope is. And I think that’s part of the expression of life and joy that Paul expresses here.

So, it’s like he chose us even before the foundation of the world. So, we don’t think of ourselves according to our behavior, whether we think ourselves too highly so that God’s chosen me because I’ve done all the good things, or that God’s rejected me because I’m a bad person and therefore I wasn’t chosen.

Before the creation of the world, Christ was chosen, and we were chosen in him to be holy and blameless. And this idea of holy and blameless is set apart relationally in love. It’s not just about morality. It’s not just about doing good or doing the right thing. Although that’s certainly very much a part of it, but it is primarily about relationship. That God has drawn us into this relationship of love, and everything is removed. All unholiness is removed because we are set apart to be in relationship with the Father. And that was his plan before the foundation of the world. And it goes on, so much more — destined us for adoption as his children according to his good pleasure. I love, all through this, you get these moments where Paul is expressing: God has not done this begrudgingly.

He’s not just saying, oh, I’m a good God; it’s my job to save these people. I will say, this is according to his will and his good pleasure. He’s chosen us. And so, what a joy that is to be delighted in and chosen. And that word adoption, it’s just a beautiful family word: given full rights of sons and daughters in Christ.

And yeah, just a great gift of all that we have in Christ: redemption through his blood; that gift of being saved and healed in the death of Christ; the forgiveness of our sins. And again, it’s according to the riches of grace that he lavished on us. It wasn’t under compulsion that God forgave us. It was because of the riches of his grace.

And that word lavished — I just think of eating too much cream on a bun or something like that. It’s a lot of — an overflow of his love. And with that, he doesn’t just save us, but he’s included us into his own knowledge of that will and purpose and plan.

We read in other places where we’ve been given the mind of Christ in that. So, we become full participants really, on the knowledge of God in all of this. In Jeremiah, we read:

“No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more.” [Jeremiah 31:34]

Yeah, we’ve been drawn not only into this relationship, he’s revealed not only himself and his love, but also his plan to gather all things up together in Christ. And finally — sorry, there’s so much here, isn’t there?

And finally, I’ll just say, all of this, ultimately, is for the praise of God’s glory. And say, what does that ultimately mean? It means as partners together with Jesus Christ, as participants in the divine triune life, being adopted as sons and daughters in Christ, we therefore become eulogizers of God so that many others may hear the good news of the gospel and be sealed by that down payment of our Holy Spirit.

To be eulogizers of God so that others may also be sealed with the down payment of our inheritance, the Holy Spirit. So it is all, great grace and love and that calling to bring glory to God is participating in that good work of bringing everything together in Christ (as Christ is doing it), by speaking good words about who God is and what God has done for us, because God has spoken a good word about us in Christ.

[00:29:17] Anthony Mullins: Yes. Thanks be to God that he is not reluctant in his salvation, that Jesus was not a reluctant Savior. But for the joy set before him, he went to the cross. And we know the atonement is just part of salvation, but it’s a significant part. And we’re so grateful for the words contained in it.

It’s almost like Paul is just bursting at the seams with good news. And it’s hard to contain the words in such a brief passage. And you pointed us to verse 4. God chooses us in Christ, the Father chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, which tells us something about us. But I think more importantly, it tells us something about the chooser, the God who chooses.

And that brings me to the next question I want to ask you. It just seems to me, Simon, that the big “C” church, the global church, has really emphasized the doctrine of justification. And thanks be to God that we are justified, right? But on some level, we have therefore de-emphasized or not emphasized our adoption as children through Jesus Christ.

And you alluded to it’s a beautiful familial term. So, is that a fair assessment? And if so, why should adoption take more, let’s say homiletic prominence in our churches?

[00:30:39] Simon Dent: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that. And yes, I think the emphasis has been largely on justification and maybe not enough on adoption, partly because we see, again, perspective from our own views of what is needed. We see the glory of God. We read the Old Testament, and we see how God has provided means of justification for the Old Testament people through the sacrifices.

We read the New Testament. We see such amount of time given to the death of Christ on the cross — that is usually the pinnacle moment of our story. And yet, so little time really [given] to the resurrection and life beyond that. I think what Paul has given in this opening passage of Ephesians is, in some ways, a step back and actually see the ultimate purpose and the plan for what [inaudible].

And the plan actually is adoption. The plan is that they would be — that the whole world would be justified. That we can actually be in relationship with the Father and enjoy the joy that God himself enjoys as Father, Son, and Spirit in this dynamic of love and joy and all of that. It’s something that God wants us to participate in.

I think for a lot of us, we see through the lens of our own sin and our shame and our brokenness. And we look to the solution, and we see here on the cross is solution. And in many ways, some of our preaching has been about how do we get people to come to this moment of faith where they can put their trust in the fact that their sins are forgiven, and they’re brought into relationship with God.

And yet we fail in some ways to see what that life ultimately means, which is adoption and joy and delight. And maybe that’s one of the reasons why we haven’t emphasized adoption much because we feel as though we’ve got to get to the problem. Let’s get people saved rather than recognizing Christ has saved us.

Let’s just walk in the joy of what that means. And the more we can walk in joy, the more beautiful our proclamation ultimately will be about justification.

[00:33:02] Anthony Mullins: Well said, sir. Thank you.

Let’s pivot to our next passage of the month. It’s Ephesians 2:11-22. It’s the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 11 in Ordinary Time, which is July the 21. And it reads:

So then, remember that at one time you gentiles by birth, called “the uncircumcision” by those who are called “the circumcision”—a circumcision made in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us, 15 abolishing the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone; 21 in him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.

Simon, for me, the two words “but now” are two of my favorite words in the entire New Testament, because it links what was to what is the reality in Christ. And verse 13 is one of those, “but now” bridges. Would you tell us about it, please?

[00:35:14] Simon Dent: Yeah, it’s a beautiful picture of looking back seeing what was, but looking who we are now in Christ.

I think of Karl Barth’s, “nevertheless of God’s faithfulness,” here. All that we can see about ourselves, all of our sin, all the ways in which we are not ultimately what we’ve wanted to be. And yet we hear that great word of “nevertheless.” You’re mine. I’ve chosen you. I’ve loved you. And I will do what I need to do to make sure that you are restored and renewed and brought into fellowship with me.

And so we just see all of the “was”’s there as well: dead in transgressions and sins (earlier in chapter 2), enslaved to the lusts and the desires of the flesh; deserving of God’s wrath; separated from God’s covenant people; outsiders of the promises given to Abraham without the fulfillment of the covenant in Christ, or not knowing that; aliens without hope and without God.

And then, but now we have that moment. Once we were far away, now we’ve been brought near by the blood of Christ. We’ve been raised up with Christ by grace, not by works, but just by his amazing grace. And now we’ve been given good works to do. So not only have we been saved and brought into this relationship, we participate by the Spirit in what God is doing.

And ultimately that means that we have peace, deep peace with God, but ultimately that calling of peace to one another where what separated us has been broken in the death of Christ. And ultimately that’s the wall of our judgment of each other, according to the law.

But we’ve all been judged in the death of Christ now. And we’ve been justified in his resurrection. And so that’s the peace we have with God. Therefore, we see each of us on the same plane in that. And the calling then is to walk in peace with one another.

[00:37:33] Anthony Mullins: Verse 14 tells us that Jesus himself is our peace. And we read about, as you just talked about, this one new humanity, the dividing wall of hostility has been crushed in Christ. As I look about me, there’s wars, ideological differences, sectarian strife, suspicion of neighbor and nations, political rancor, and just a general lack of respect and civility for the other.

One new humanity living in peace and reconciliation, it can seem like it’s pixie dust or a fairytale instead of Christological truth. And yet we trust that scripture is pointing us to the truth. So, tell us about that. What’s going on? And what do we do in light of this gospel proclamation?

[00:38:27] Simon Dent: Yeah, I think we live in the now and not yet, where all of this is true about us. And yet our own minds still need to be further transformed by the Spirit so that what is ultimately true about us can be something that is demonstrated in a way that we live and accept one another.

In many ways, you look at the world and you see everybody is either ruled in or ruled out according to some kind of law, whatever that might be — a way of seeking to have power over others. But the reality of what Christ has done in actually coming and saving sinners, lifting them up to, be adopted in Christ and to know the joy of the Father, and therefore be those who demonstrate peace is something that takes a while for our brains and our hearts and our minds to really understand.

And so, we continue to go back to the gospel, we continue to hear this truth, we continue to listen to podcasts like yours, so that the Spirit can take what is true to that reality, bring peace to our own hearts. When we have peace in our own hearts, then we can extend that peace to one another.

But yeah, you look at the world and this vision of union, even within churches and within our own families, even in ourselves, when we look at the mirror, this is not ultimately what I see, but we live in hope.

And the hope is there is an objective reality that’s happened to us in Christ. And if we fix our minds on that, fix our minds on him, the author and the perfecter of our faith, we find that the Holy Spirit does bring us a deeper freedom in that. So, we are enabled to deal with issues, face the difficulties that separate people, and seek to bring a word of peace in that situation.

But it is a vision for really the end of time as well. Ultimately, we long for that day when Christ will actually put an end to all types of division with people. And that is the day that’s coming.

[00:40:41] Anthony Mullins: Hallelujah. Praise God that it is, and we do long for it.

And I appreciated what you said about, I’m talking about what I see about me on the exterior, but you also identified this warring is going on internally that way. I want to believe; I am a believer, but help me in my unbelief, Lord.

And I think of what Bart said, “I was, and I am the old man. I am and will be the new man.” There is still this tension as we long for the not yet aspect. Yeah.

[00:41:18] Simon Dent: Yeah. Amen. And that gives us hope, doesn’t it? To make sure that there is a not yet, means that you can look at this world and actually say, but the yet, it’s coming.

[00:41:31] Anthony Mullins: Amen. We’re in the home stretch.

We’re moving to our final pericope of the month. It’s Ephesians 3:14-21. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 12 and Ordinary Time, which falls on July 28. Simon, we’d be grateful if you’d read it.

[00:41:49] Simon Dent:

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name. 16 I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit 17 and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, as you are being rooted and grounded in love. 18 I pray that you may have the power to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

[00:42:47] Anthony Mullins: I want to read that again. “He is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can dare ask or imagine.”

And I’ve got a pretty vivid imagination, Simon, but that’s astonishing that this is the God who we’re in relationship with. Verse 19 gives a prayerful statement from Paul that all would know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge. And a little insight on me, my faith tradition as a youth held up knowledge, especially biblical knowledge, as the pinnacle of Christian life.

For those in our listening audience who may have had a similar experience as the one I described, share with us how the love of Christ is superior to the factual comprehension of the scriptures.

[00:43:38] Simon Dent: Yeah. It’s not to deny that knowledge and having good information about Christian faith, about who God, is not important. We read in Proverbs that call, “Get wisdom, get understanding.”

But we see that it’s a problem that has happened throughout history. We see that in Jesus’ own reaction with the Pharisees. In John 5, he speaks to the Pharisees and said, “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think in them that you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.” [verse 39]

So, Jesus is clearly saying the scriptures don’t actually have the eternal life. I am eternal life, and these scriptures actually testify about me, and you need to come to me to actually experience eternal life. One of the problems about a community that’s so focused on knowledge is that relationally you can tend to rule people in or out according to whether they fit within your particular understanding of what you’ve gained.

I was once in a community that was all about preaching the grace of the gospel. And often what they taught was just so beautiful and life-giving, it made your heart sing. But I never really felt safe amongst those people, in case, I suddenly maybe had a slightly different take on something that was in some ways the accepted norm.

And it just made me realize maybe even in preaching the good news of the gospel and understand the good news of the gospel, we can, in some ways, rule people in or out because we are trusting more in our knowledge and our understanding and our theology — of getting it all right rather than actually allowing that theology to actually lead us to Jesus Christ and his expansive beauty that embraces us all, that gives us the freedom to maybe explore a little, play a little with our understandings of the scriptures without that sense of necessarily being ruled in or out because we haven’t actually got it right.

So yeah, unless knowledge leads us to a relationship with God, then it’s not the knowledge that comes from the Spirit.

[00:45:59] Anthony Mullins: That’s right. If theology or understanding of God and the scriptures, they don’t lead us to worship, something’s wrong. If they don’t lead us to love, something’s amiss, right?

[00:46:10] Simon Dent: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And it’s not just love for God. It’s ultimately that love for one another and expansive openness towards one another as well.

And I think in the tradition that I grew up, there was very much a lot of love for God, but there were barriers, and we were wary about other people, particularly people who might think a little bit differently. So, it didn’t necessarily lead us out to that love of one another.

[00:46:35] Anthony Mullins: Yeah, that’s so well said.

I’ve met people (and I’ve done this on some level myself) where because the scriptures were held up as the pinnacle and knowledge of them — and again, like you so well stated, we need to know the scriptures for sure, because they do point us to Jesus — but I’ve known people that had spent hours and hours studying their Bible every day, but they didn’t allow the Bible to study them.

And what I mean by that is to examine their lives, to call them to have an unction to go out and love their neighbor. This has got to get expressed somehow to your fellow brother and sister. And if it doesn’t, then again, we need to go back and allow the word to examine us, as we read the written word for sure.

Simon, as a final request before we end our podcast episode. I’m just going to ask you to share how you’ve personally experienced the gospel glory that God is able to accomplish abundantly more than you could ask or imagine.

[00:47:38] Simon Dent: This is a very special verse for me because it was a verse that I shared at my wedding day, when I looked at my beautiful wife. And I just was thinking, man, who am I to be blessed in such a way to have such a beautiful person to journey life with?

And I was just struck by this first that God knows us and gives us more than we ever ask or imagine. And so that was a joy for me, particularly for me coming from a family where there was a fair bit of dysfunction. There was love there for us, but I grew up as a child feeling pretty insecure and unsafe because there was a bit of violence in our family.

And to be brought into a place, a home, if you like, where you’re actually deeply free and loved and accepted as you are and delighted in (as the first few verses of Ephesians tell us), it’s quite transforming.

I used to be a TV cameraman and before I was a believer, I had this desire of actually being a news correspondent where I’d travel the world and do all these amazing things. And my whole identity was really built up in my success. When I became a believer in Christ and I discovered Christ’s love for me, I said, I don’t really want to do any of that. I just want to give my life completely to Jesus and do whatever Jesus wants to do, because this is the most amazing news for me.

And basically, the job that I had finished up, so I started going to look for some freelance work and I knocked on the door of one company that was making videos. I had no idea about this, [inaudible] some videos for Christian mission organizations overseas. So, I traveled for five and a half years with this company making prayer videos, promotional videos for mission organizations based overseas, and traveled to 75 different countries.

And it was as though Christ had given that desire that I had before I knew him to travel the world, and he just magnified it and used it for his glory. And that was beyond what I asked or imagined. I thought I was just giving it up, but he actually just provided such a way that I could just use my gifts and serve him and love him.

The very final thing I’ll say on that, and this is a special story for me. From that moment, I felt the call of God to be a pastor. Other people fed into my life and communicated that. We have a number of processes to be ordained in the Uniting Church. And I was at one of the last processes where I was going to sit before the panel that would make a decision as to whether I would go through or not.

And I was at a church near the bush, and I was just walking around in the bush beforehand. It was quite early, and I was full of concern. I said, oh Lord, are you actually calling me to this? I want to say, I don’t think I’m able to do all of this.

And as I was walking through there, I was in the bush and I said, oh, Lord, I’d love to see a koala. It was just this side point. And as I was walking through there, I saw a koala going up in a tree. I said, oh Lord, that’s fantastic. Thank you for that.

And then I turned around. Seriously. Three seconds later, there’s another koala in the tree there. Oh, wow. That’s cool. Four steps down the track — this has seriously happened — a mother koala with a baby on its back walked across the path in front of me and then up the tree. And I suddenly just took that as a word. This wasn’t just something that was happening.

This is God saying, this is my call for you. I’m going to provide for you. But more than that, I’m going to provide for you abundantly, give you more than what you ask or imagine.

And I went into that process with a deep confidence of God’s calling for me in this ministry. But more than that, his own provision for me to do what he’s calling me to do. So, a great grace.

[00:51:45] Anthony Mullins: I’m so thankful you shared that. What a beautiful expression of the goodness of God, the tenderness of God, the closeness of God.

And it points us to the reality of the incarnation that God comes and meets us. It’s like a friend of mine says, he didn’t just write us a letter. He paid us a visit. He shows up even in the bush, right?

[00:52:06] Simon Dent: Yeah, that’s right.

[00:52:08] Anthony Mullins: In burning bushes and in the bush in Australia, he shows up. And oh, thank you.

Thank you. That was just a fitting way to close this podcast. I’m so glad you joined us, Simon. It’s a joy. We have never met personally, but I hope our paths will cross one day and that would be so lovely.

And I want to remind our friends that are listening: Jesus Christ is the sermon God is preaching. So, let’s keep listening to him. Let’s keep pointing to him and let’s keep heralding the good news of his gospel.

I want to thank Simon. This was so sweet. I also want to thank our team because this podcast couldn’t happen without the likes of Reuel Enerio, our producer and our digital content creator, and also my beautiful wife, Elizabeth, who does the transcription, so you can read every word that Simon has said.

Thanks again, Simon. We’re so grateful. And as is tradition, we’d like to close with a word of prayer. So, would you please pray for us?

[00:53:09] Simon Dent: Yeah, I’d love to. Thank you, Anthony.

Father, we bless you. We thank you, Lord, for the revelation that you’ve given to us, that you have loved us in your son, Jesus Christ. And more than that, Lord, you have joined us in him, into this amazing dynamic relationship of peace and joy. You’ve granted us the gift of your Spirit, so Lord that we may know you, but also Lord that we may walk with you in the world.

And Lord for all of those who are listening to this, those who are preparing to teach on these passages, we ask Lord that they may know in the depths of their being that you are the one who has called them, you are the one that has adopted them into your family. And Lord, that you’re the one that’s given them the gifts of the Spirit so that others also may hear and have the types of experience that Paul himself had.

And Lord, we bless you for your amazing goodness to us. Bless all of those who are listening, those who are teaching and leading. And we pray, Father, for great fruitfulness from all that they do through the work of your Spirit. In Jesus’ name and we pray. Amen.

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Rise Up w/ Chris Tilling

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest, Dr. Chris Tilling.

Chris is the Head of Research, Graduate Tutor, Senior Lecturer in New Testament Studies at St Mellitus College in London, England. He is the author of the critically acclaimed book Paul’s Divine Christology and co-author of How God Became Jesus along with Michael Bird. And he wrote a brilliant forward to Jeff McSwain’s latest book, Hidden in Contradiction. Chris has published numerous articles on topics related to Christology, the apostle Paul, justification, the historical Jesus, Karl Barth and more. He’s also on the Advisory Board for the TF Torrance Theological Society.

Chris is married to Anya, and they have two children. In his free time — and I do want to talk to him about this offline sometime — he loves to play golf. Chris, there’s nothing in my life that brings more frustration than trying to hit that little white ball. So again, we’ll talk about that offline.

Welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d love to know a bit of your personal story and how you are participating with the Lord these days.

[00:01:54] Chris: Oh, thank you. It’s a real honor to be involved with you guys. I’ve looked at your previous podcasts, and you’ve had quite a few big names on, so it’s obviously an honor to be involved to chat with you guys.

But me, my personal story, goodness — I became a Christian in my late teens and in quite a conservative background, even for American standards, quite conservative. And it was choppy, choppy waters for me, especially the deeper I got into theology, moving from very defensive, through to just engaging every possible question and doubt, through to finally orientating myself on God’s movement to us in Jesus Christ.

So, understanding Christian faith on God’s terms, as it were. So, it wasn’t something I possessed, something I could control, but rather was the joyful movement of God to us in Jesus. And that’s really where I am now. I am so grateful for that more conservative background that has given me a rooting in Scripture, a love of God’s word.

But now I’m orientated more forthrightly to evangelizing everything about my thinking in light of Jesus Christ. And that’s where I am now.

[00:03:09] Anthony: I love how you put it, the joyful movement of God in Jesus. And it is a joyful double movement of grace. Each pericope we’re going to look at this month, Chris, is found in Mark’s Gospel.

You’re a New Testament scholar, so you know way more about this than I do. What insights would you want to share with our listeners about the book of Mark that could enrich their preaching and teaching, especially as it relates to how Mark views the historical Jesus?

[00:03:39] Chris: Okay, I’m going to say something general about the Gospels.

Obviously, it’s applicable to Mark’s Gospel as well, but it’s crucial to get genre right. And I think this is the most important aspect that we need to take home when it comes to preaching and teaching as well. Genre matters, right? We wouldn’t read the comments section on Fox News the same way we might read a cooking book or a tweet. Genre matters.

And Mark, together with the other Synoptic Gospels, approximates to ancient biography. And the crucial thing about ancient biography is that they offer an account of a person. (I’m quoting Richard Burridge.) And that means that to read the Gospels aright, according to their genre, means to be obsessed with the person of Jesus Christ first and foremost, not with a moral code, not with lessons on how to pray better, or how to deal with finances, or whatever else it is, not with a philosophy of life, but with Jesus himself.

That’s the hermeneutical key for reading these texts. We are drawn to the Son of God, to behold the beauty of the Son of God. And this is obviously the case of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, because they all look at Jesus in different ways, but that would be my top tip for reading Mark’s Gospels.

[00:05:03] Anthony: That’s a good word. It’s Jesus the Christ, the living Word, who is the infallible word of God, right? So, we look at him. And theology should always lead us to doxology, this praise, this joyful praise of the Lord.

All right, let’s do this. Go ahead, Chris, please.

[00:05:24] Chris: I was just going to say, because I say it’s crucial for preaching. The number of sermons I’ve had to sit through on the Gospels that tend to be moralizing that tend to be guilt inducing, or you need to do this, that, and the other. There’s a place for that.

But if they’re not also, and first and last, pointing us to Jesus and his reality, then it’s like reading a cookery book, as though we’re reading poetry. There’s a genre mix up there.

[00:05:55] Anthony: Yes. I just said to my wife this past week that so many sermons I listen to, first and foremost, ask questions of anthropology instead of Christology. And so, we’re trying to find ourselves in the scripture, but let’s go looking for God and what he’s done in Jesus Christ on our behalf. So amen, brother.

All right. We have five lectionary passages we’re going to be discussing this month. So, let’s get to it.

Mark 2:23-3:6, “Lord of the Sabbath”

Mark 3:20-35, “Family Feud”

Mark 4:26-34, “My, How You’ve Grown!”

Mark 4:35-41, “Don’t You Care?”

Mark 5:21-43, “Rise Up”

Our first pericope of the month is Mark 2:23 through 3:6.

I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the Updated Edition. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 4 in Ordinary Time on June 2. And it reads,

One Sabbath he was going through the grain fields, and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food, 26 how he entered the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions?” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for humankind and not humankind for the Sabbath, 28 so the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

Again, he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 They were watching him to see whether he would cure him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come forward.” 4 Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

Chris, what are the implications of Jesus’ statement, the Sabbath was made for humankind and not humankind for the Sabbath, because he is the Lord of the Sabbath?

[00:08:33] Chris: Yeah, great question. That really does sum up the entire pericope. There’s a hermeneutic here: how to read and understand the law. What is it to live under Torah? What is it to be faithful to God’s commandments?

And ultimately, there’s a battle about what that entails, what that means. And Jesus is making it clear that the law was always there. The Torah was always there for human flourishing. It was there in order to facilitate healthy lives and balance and good relationships.

And the danger is that the law becomes something that bludgeons, that becomes a blunt tool that sees everything as a nail and so you need a hammer. So that the only thing that is required is unconditional, unthinking obedience to the letter. And Jesus responds to this by saying, actually, that’s not quite how this works.

Is it better to give life or to kill? Depending on the circumstances. There’s a hermeneutical battle here, in other words, about what it is to be obedient, which is why he goes to David. Have you never read what David did? Because according to the letter of the law, David and what his companions did, was disobedient. It was unfaithful to Torah. But actually, in the grand scheme of things, in light of the particularities, it was just the right thing to do. So, it’s clearly a hermeneutic going on here.

But the key, as always with these things and as we’ve already discussed about the Son of Man being Lord of the Sabbath, okay, there’s debate. Does this mean all humans, or does it mean Jesus? That’s probably a false “either or,” because the key to the hermeneutical understanding going on here, I think is, again, the reality of Jesus Christ. And then we can negotiate these choppy waters.

So, in other words this, the implications of this are huge. The implications are all about how do we read the Bible, as a whole, in light of Jesus Christ and in view of human flourishing?

[00:11:00] Anthony: Speaking of human flourishing, I was struck again as I was just reading this passage aloud, how frequently there’s a pattern in Scripture where God, of course, could do a work, a miracle without our participation, but he often invites us into it.

He said to the man with the withered hand, come forward, stretch out your hand. We see in other parts of Scripture, pick up your mats or the battle will be won. You’ll see the victory of the Lord, but go down and face it, even though you’re not going to lift the sword, kind of thing. Anything you’d want to say about our participation and what the Lord is up to?

[00:11:39] Chris: Anything I’d want to say about our participation? There seems to be a very real participation here, right? In other words, our agency, which is very real and honored, is given that Christological frame in this particular text. You stretch out, to the withered hand. Come forward. In other words, that responsiveness — in any theology, any dogmatic theology, that claims to be Barthian and doesn’t have a rich account of human responsivity is mistaken.

And Bart was very clear on this as well. We need to have a good account of human agency and what we do. But the ultimate bracketing of that human agency — no, it’s not its bracketing. Its constitution is Jesus Christ. Our real human agency is incorporated into the liveliness of Jesus Christ himself in a way that doesn’t obliterate that agency, but actually gives it its texture.

It’s slightly theoretical perhaps, but that’s where I’m going with your question.

[00:12:52] Anthony: Anything else you would like to bring forth out of this passage?

[00:12:56] Chris: There’s always a danger in reading this passage when the “not lawful,” thinking that Jesus is opposed to Jews and Jewish legalism and that kind of rhetoric, which is a huge mistake.

Jesus is picking up on very biblical principles for understanding the Torah. The Pharisees and their particular legalistic take, if that’s the right way of describing it, isn’t representative of all Judaism. As though Christians, we’ve left legalism behind, but the Jews haven’t. That would be a misreading of this passage, profoundly misleading.

But perhaps it’s also just worthwhile meditating on the fact that Jesus has caused so much consternation that he causes the Pharisees and the Herodians to conspire against him. This is the last verse. They are chalk and cheese. [“Chalk and cheese” is a British idiom meaning two people or things that are completely different from each other.] The Herodians (they’re not party as such, but they’re a bunch of people who are loyal to the Herodian dynasty) and the Pharisees are not natural friends.

So, when we get legalistic, when we put principles above people and above Jesus Christ, it can cause us to really put things out of kilter. And do the craziest things and that’s why the Pharisees here are even conspiring with the Herodians.

[00:14:20] Anthony: That’s a good word.

All right, let’s pivot to the next passage of the month.

It’s Mark 3:20-35. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 5 in Ordinary Time, which is June 9. Chris, we’d be delighted if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:14:34] Chris: Great.

Mark 3:20-35. This is for an Ordinary Time, June 9.

Then he went home, and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat. 21 When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, “He has gone out of his mind.” 22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of the demons he casts out demons.” 23 And he called them to him and spoke to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but his end has come. 27 But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his property without first tying up the strong man; then indeed the house can be plundered. 28 “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 for they had said, “He has an unclean spirit.” Then his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside asking for you.” 33 And he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34 And looking at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

[00:16:13] Anthony: My wife and I occasionally watch British TV, and we always comment about how anything a Brit says, sounds fantastic. Well, done, sir. Well, done.

[00:16:27] Chris: That’s the one card I’ve got going for me, I think, that one.

[00:16:30] Anthony: Tell us about the God revealed in Jesus in this pericope.

[00:16:34] Chris: Oh, wow. That is a big question. I suppose one of the things I’d want to talk about is how Jesus casts relationship with him, and therefore relationship with God, in familial terms, with familial metaphors.

It actually came as some shock to me to realize that the New Testament doesn’t tend to speak of Christ followers (it does, but not as often as you’d expect) as believers. Rather more often, with familial terms as brothers and sisters. And this is key in the teaching of Jesus. Richard Bauckham, who’s a New Testament scholar, he says of the Gospels, with every major area, there comes a new revelation of the name of God.

So, you had Adonai; you had the divine name, the Tetragrammaton; and with Jesus, you have “Father” as the divine name being revealed, which was a fascinating way of putting it. But one way or another, this is key to the understanding of Jesus with those who are around him. You are my brothers.

We’re called into a family; we’re called into a relationship with a Father who loves us even more than the best human fathers can love us. So that would be the first place I would go for understanding, but much more could be said, of course.

[00:18:04] Anthony: Wow. I’m just thinking about what you just said there. We so often want to make it our relationship with God. We talk in terms of judgment and not always as family. So that was brilliant. Whoever does the will of God is my, here we go, familial brother, sister and mother.

So sometimes we’re reductionist when we talk about the will of God. What’s the will of God for this or that? But just big picture: what is the will of the father in the context of this text?

[00:18:43] Chris: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this question and realized it’s quite difficult to answer. Mark is famous for not giving us much content in terms of the actual teaching. There’s a lot of talk about what Jesus taught without going into the content of that teaching.

Matthew and Luke do that much more. Mark’s Gospel, which is often depicted as a lion with images, is fast-paced. It runs through texts with a lot of stories with lots of “immediately’s.” “This now happened.” “Immediately that” and “immediately this,” without stopping to pause and give us some more content.

So, there’s a sense in which — there isn’t too much to go on here, but what can we say? That the immediate pericope seems to link doing the will of God with works of power. And this isn’t something that is necessarily comfortable to hear but there Jesus is casting out demons. And it’s very much caught up in the debate about that.

And Jesus is not casting out demons by Beelzebub, but by the Spirit of God. And of course, linked to this as well, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And therefore, the will of God must be something about honoring the Holy Spirit. But can I just say something about that, actually? Because this is a what has been known as a text of terror for some.

[00:20:18] Anthony: Yes.

[00:20:19] Chris: And for those, especially those who struggle with religious scrupulosity and obsessive compulsive disorders, this is a verse that many have given up faith because of this. Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin. Oh, have I committed that eternal sin?

And lots of introspection and pain and psychological trauma is based on this. Let me just say something about the word here. Aiónios is the Greek word behind eternal there. And I think it’s better to translate that not as eternal. Ethos would have been a better word to have in that particular passage. Maybe it’s until the age or for an age, is guilty of sin until or for the age, by the way.

So, I think that’s a better way of understanding that particular passage. And for those who worry that they’ve committed the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, you almost certainly haven’t, because then you wouldn’t be worried about it.

It’s about the continued resistance that we put up against the Holy Spirit, which ultimately, I think God overcomes as well because God will be all in all. But there’s much more to talk about there. I just wanted to flag that particular passage.

[00:21:37] Anthony: I’m glad you did. I thought about asking a question about it, but it seems to me when people come to this pericope, they get hung up there and they don’t see anything else within the text.

But even though it’s not in our passage here, in our focus, I think of our Lord on the cross. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. The Spirit was there. And certainly, we were all blaspheming in some form or fashion against God. And Jesus’ words were, “Father, forgive them,” revealing the heart of God, not shielding us from an angry God, but revealing God’s heart as it’s always been.

Thank God for it. I appreciate your words.

Let’s transition to our next passage. It’s Mark 4:26-34. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 6 in Ordinary Time, which is June 16.

He also said, “The kingdom of God is as if someone would scatter seed on the ground 27 and would sleep and rise night and day, and the seed would sprout and grow, he does not know how. 28 The earth produces of itself first the stalk, then the head, then the full grain in the head. 29 But when the grain is ripe, at once he goes in with his sickle because the harvest has come.” He also said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable will we use for it? 31 It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth, 32 yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes the greatest of all shrubs and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.” With many such parables he spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it; 34 he did not speak to them except in parables, but he explained everything in private to his disciples.

So, Jesus here describes the kingdom of God as growing, yet the workers don’t know how it happens in verse 27. And yet, Chris, I sometimes, or frequently, hear Bible teachers giving a five step plan on how we make the kingdom of God grow.

So, am I missing something here? Help us understand.

[00:23:50] Chris: No, you’re not missing a thing. I think there’s a temptation to turn the kingdom of God into a human project. And this is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of discipleship, which belongs to God. It’s not ours to control, as I said at the very start.

That was one of the key insights I remember battling my way through back then — what we’d now called deconstruction. It wasn’t trendy back then. But it was certainly a key moment for me.

There’s some wisdom to be gained from having, let’s say, five steps from not being a sluggard. We could get that from Proverbs. Understood.

But when it comes to the activity of God and God’s own reign, which effectively is what God’s kingdom means, this is all about the gracious activity of God, rather than something we master and control. We remain disciples in this whole process, not masters.

So, I don’t think you’re missing a thing. I think you’ve hit on something crucial to the life of faith, which frees us from taking ourselves so seriously. We don’t need to, you and me, Anthony — we’re not the middle of any of this. We’re not the center. Jesus Christ is the center. That frees us to enjoy the life of faith in discipleship without doubts, without stupidity, without whole swathe of misunderstandings and so on, intact, because it’s not about us.

It’s about Jesus.

[00:25:36] Anthony: And it’s so good! And some people receive that as not good news because they misunderstand agency, and they want to be able to control. But it is good news that we’re not in the center. As Barth would say, genuine freedom is realizing Jesus Christ is not a freedom from God, but a freedom for God, that we get to actively participate, even if we don’t know how it’s happening.

And I think it was Eugene Peterson that said this in terms of discipleship, that it’s focusing more and more on Christ’s righteousness and less on our own. And boy, we get that backwards, don’t we, Chris, so often?

[00:26:19] Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. A good understanding of human agency, I think, is one of the crying needs for many in the church.

[00:26:28] Anthony: While we’re on the topic of things that puzzle me — and that’s not difficult. I’m not the sharpest chisel in the shed. So, let’s talk about the parables of Jesus. My life left eye begins to twitch when I hear people say the parables are simple stories or this parable clearly means whatever, fill in the blank.

So, I ask you, New Testament scholar, am I just a contrarian or is there more profundity there? Is it something in between?

[00:26:59] Chris: Oh, goodness. You’re not the only one that the parables puzzle. New Testament scholars debate endlessly questions relating to how they’re best understood, how they’re best classified, what genre they better approximate, whether there’s one meaning or whether there’s multiple meanings, what the purpose of these parables are.

Is it to disclose? Is it actually to cover and to hide? In other words, the confusion is one shared by New Testament scholars. Yeah, I mean, the only thing I could think that we could learn from New Testament scholarship in that regard is to realize that we have now recognized that we can’t speak in simplistic terms about the parables.

We can’t speak in simplistic terms about their genre, their historical precedence. Certainly, we can’t say that a parable has a single point. Rather, scholars these days tend to say that the parables are polyvalent. They have lots of ways of being understood. And it’s almost as if, to come back to the human agency thing here, Jesus is, in using parables, calling for our active participation in pondering, in thinking, in puzzling.

So, you said that these topics puzzle me. I think that’s the point of the parables. They’re made to evoke our wonder and response. Isn’t that interesting? Jesus isn’t there simply giving us a list of things to believe, right? Now that’s it. Now you’ve job done, like a good lecturer.

He’s causing, he’s evoking our participation in the process, in wondering, and in pondering.

[00:28:55] Anthony: Eugene Peterson has a brilliant book called Tell It Slant, and he’s quoting a poem from Emily Dickinson when he says this. But that’s what fiction can do. This is what the parables can do. It comes at you slant, not blunt force.

Like you said earlier, it evokes our imagination. And this is why I think there’s always more profundity than we can apprehend. We don’t ever comprehend. We just get glimpses.

Let me ask you this, Chris, as a follow up. If you were preaching this particular text, what would be your focus beyond anything you’ve already said?

[00:29:40] Chris: I don’t know if this is something I would preach on, but it’s certainly something I’d want to talk about now. I’m certainly — if I’m going to preach on this, it’s going to be, it’s got to be focused on God as I’ve said so many times, and I’m going to say till I’m blue in the face. It’s about God revealing himself in Jesus Christ and in his movement to us.

And God is creating this growth. God wants to do this. He’s for us. He’s with us in Jesus Christ. That’s certainly where I want to go for preaching. But for this particular discussion, I’d want to just meditate a little bit longer on the issue of parables. Because, if you were to flip open a dictionary of the New Testament or turn to a New Testament scholar who’s written on the parables, then very often you get questions of historicity — that is to what extent do the parables in Mark give us a window onto the historical Jesus or some such.

Can I just say something about this? Just because here, it seems to me, is where we need some of our metaphysics evangelized. There is no historical Jesus just existing in the past; we’re now in the present, separated from that past. If that’s the case, then Jesus isn’t who we think he is and confess him to be and worship him to be.

Rather, we exist in the time of Jesus Christ. We are crucified with Christ. We will be raised with Christ (to pick up on language of the apostle Paul and other New Testament passages use.) There is no neat history apart from us. We are incorporated into Jesus’ story and history.

So, the whole idea that we can get to a historical Jesus is to look with (I think it was John Webster put it) with methodological infidelity. I think was his turn of phrase. But more importantly as well, the historical Jesus can never be the real Jesus.

And I’m drawing distinctions here that a German scholar, Michael Wolter, has used. Historical studies can only give us an approximation based on probabilities and such, and that’s never going to be the same as the fullness of a person, a historical person. If someone, in 200 years, looks back at your life, Anthony, and tries to look at the trace you, of your presence online, interviews, descendants, looks at things that you’ve written online and things that your family said about you, they’ll come up with an approximation, but it’s not going to be the real Anthony.

And the thing about Mark’s Gospel is that it points us, not to a historical Jesus, but to the real Jesus. And I think these are really important distinctions to bear in mind in light of New Testament scholars. Because many will go, what are parables then? They’ll pick up a New Testament scholarly text, and they’ll get profoundly disappointed.

Don’t be. For the reasons I’ve mentioned, ultimately, it’s about pointing us to the real Jesus.

[00:32:59] Anthony: Yeah. I appreciate what you said there because I think that can be another lie about separation from God. Separation from the historical Jesus. Thank God that when one died, all died.

All right, Chris, our next passage is Mark 4:35-41. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 7 in Ordinary Time, June 23. Would you read it for us, please?

[00:33:30] Chris: Certainly.

On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side.” 36 And leaving the crowd behind, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. Other boats were with him. 37 A great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that the boat was already being swamped. 38 But he was in the stern, asleep on the cushion, and they woke him up and said to him, “Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?” 39 And waking up, he rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Be silent! Be still!” Then the wind ceased, and there was a dead calm. 40 He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Have you still no faith?” 41 And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”

[00:34:22] Anthony: That’s the question, isn’t it? Who is this? So, from your perspective, was Jesus knowingly sending his friends, with himself, into a raging storm?

And if that’s the case, what are the implications not only for them, but for us, if anything?

[00:34:39] Chris: Yeah. The text doesn’t specify, does it, whether Jesus was sending them there knowingly. Of course, that evokes lots of questions about the omniscience of Jesus in his being human, but also God, fully God.

These are questions that have occupied theologians for many years. In fact, I’m just reading a book by Austin Stevenson for an OnScript podcast next week. The book is called The Consciousness of the Historical Jesus, and he’s got a few chapters thinking about: how do we speak of the omniscience of Jesus in light of particularly passages in Mark where Jesus seems to admit that he doesn’t know everything?

That’s a bit of an aside. But here’s something we can say: that God does send us into difficult times. I think of the baptism of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, upon descending on Jesus, immediately sends him not into a nice place, but into the desert. So sometimes the Holy Spirit isn’t being friendly, in whatever way we might understand the word friendly. So, it wouldn’t be beyond the pale to understand Jesus putting them through this knowingly, with all of those theological footnotes in place.

But I do think that we are now encountering something which is essential to the fabric of faith. That question: don’t you care? Being a disciple of Jesus isn’t being a Buddhist and just having perfect peace about everything.

It’s about wrestling with psychological strain and questioning: how can this thing happen? Most of the Psalms or many of the psalms, they’re psalms of lament. The psalmist might turn around and say, look, we’ve done everything right, God, but you have fallen asleep. Wake up.

It’s evoking precisely these kinds of psalms where the faithful in Israel are perplexed that their enemies are taking over. So, this is the question of faith, not the question of atheism.

And just yesterday or the day before, I came across this Facebook post where someone was saying, the most devastating critique of Christianity is the presence of evil. And someone clever responded and said in the comments — I don’t know why I look at Facebook comments; it’s not very good for me — but someone clever responded in the comments, “How can an atheist say anything about evil because you don’t have a standard of which to talk about evil because you’ve given up faith in God?” And they turned around and they said, “Ah, this is an internal critique of Christianity.”

And I thought, okay, I follow the reasoning, but it’s actually a critique of faith, right? The question: don’t you care? That’s what believers, it’s what disciples ask, not an atheist.

And so, Jesus responds to us then in that light, as those who are his brothers and sisters and mothers. Why are you afraid? Have you still no faith? In other words, there isn’t this you’re on the verge of being an outsider now kind of condemnation. Why are you afraid? Have you still no faith? This is the kind of questioning that Jesus puts to his brothers and sisters and mothers, which then causes us to be filled with great fear and ask, who is this Jesus?

The questions, in other words, continue right off the back of that.

[00:38:18] Anthony: You mentioned the Psalms and I recently read Walter Brueggemann’s book, The Spirituality of the Psalms, and he helped me see a rhythm in scripture, specifically the Psalms. But you see it in the Sermon of the Mount and the passages where he talks about orientation, disorientation, and reorientation.

We come to Jesus with a certain orientation, what we think we believe about him. And then we’ve got to wrestle with that. Like you said, like there’s a windstorm and he’s asleep. What do we do with this? And then he says, be silent, be still. He orients us to the fact that he is God, and he is Lord of the weather and all that is. And that’s why we have to wrestle through this to get to the space where we actually see him and who he is.

And so, I’m going to invite you, Chris, before we depart from this pericope to get personal with people who may be shaking their fists at the sky saying, don’t you care? Because of whatever they’re facing in this life, the evil that they’ve encountered.

What would you say to them? So instead of giving a lecture, maybe what I’m asking you to do is preach and share a word of consolation to those who are wrestling right now.

[00:39:42] Chris: Oh, yeah. I’ve been there, Anthony. I’ve been shaking my fist at God and utterly perplexed with what is going on.

And all I would say is, this is the life of faith. This is what it is to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. We’re not inoculated from these kinds of questions, from these complaints. But what we can do is when the storm starts to subside, we can remember that we stand on a rock and that rock is the God revealed in Jesus Christ. And the God revealed in Jesus Christ is our eternal Father. Jesus says, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?

Think comparing that with the love of the perfect earthly father. This is what Jesus is pointing us to. God loves us so dearly, much more, but analogous to the way in which the best human father loves their children.

I’m a father and I’ve got to say, I don’t know a love like that. I’ve often thought, would I give up my life for my wife? And I’d like to think I would. If I had to step in front of a bus to save my wife, I’d like to think I would. But here’s the thing. If either of my two children were in danger and I needed to give up my life for them, I would do it in a heartbeat, a thousand times out of a thousand instinctively.

That’s the kind of love that a father has, a good father has for their children. And Jesus is saying, this is the way in which God loves us. So, let’s question, let’s rage against the silence. Let’s question, because this is the kind of story that gives us permission to do just that. Evoking those psalms of lament of God’s silence, of God falling asleep.

But remember, that when the waves subside, we can ask in astonishment, who then is this Father, this incredible love, an eternal love from before all eternity?

[00:41:52] Anthony: Preach, preacher. That was a good sermon. Thank you.

Our final pericope of the month is Mark 5, 21:43. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 7 in Ordinary Time, June 30.

When Jesus had crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered around him, and he was by the sea. 22 Then one of the leaders of the synagogue, named Jairus, came and, when he saw him, fell at his feet 23 and pleaded with him repeatedly, “My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well and live.” 24 So he went with him. And a large crowd followed him and pressed in on him. 25 Now there was a woman who had been suffering from a flow of blood for twelve years. 26 She had endured much under many physicians and had spent all that she had, and she was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 for she said, “If I but touch his cloak, I will be made well.” 29 Immediately her flow of blood stopped, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30 Immediately aware that power had gone forth from him, Jesus turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my cloak?” 31 And his disciples said to him, “You see the crowd pressing in on you; how can you say, ‘Who touched me?’” 32 He looked all around to see who had done it. 33 But the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came in fear and trembling, fell down before him, and told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.” 35 While he was still speaking, some people came from the synagogue leader’s house to say, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the teacher any further?” 36 But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the synagogue leader, “Do not be afraid; only believe.” 37 He allowed no one to follow him except Peter, James, and John, the brother of James. 38 When they came to the synagogue leader’s house, he saw a commotion, people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 When he had entered, he said to them, “Why do you make a commotion and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping.” 40 And they laughed at him. Then he put them all outside and took the child’s father and mother and those who were with him and went in where the child was. 41 Taking her by the hand, he said to her, “Talitha koum,” which means, “Little girl, get up!” 42 And immediately the girl stood up and began to walk about (she was twelve years of age). At this they were overcome with amazement. 43 He strictly ordered them that no one should know this and told them to give her something to eat.

Jesus proclaimed, “Talitha koum.” Girl, rise up.

This pericope tells us of a dead girl coming back to life. And a living woman who was dead to her community before a life-giving encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ. As best you can, Chris, proclaim the astounding gospel declaration contained in these stories.

[00:44:56] Chris: Yeah, the gospel isn’t about sin management. You notice how as you put it, it’s about death to life. Where there’s death, where there’s separation Jesus comes along and brings life and incorporation.

And where the Gospels go, some have described them as extended prefaces to the crucifixion and resurrection narratives, which is slightly exaggerating, but there’s truth to that. Ultimately, Jesus is going to enter death and from within death, defeat death because he is life. He is the opposite of death.

And this is ultimately the gospel. It isn’t just about pulling up our moral bootstraps and making sure we’ve prayed the sinner’s prayer. It’s participation in the death and, therefore, in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, as you put it. We believe that one died, therefore all died. This is the gospel as best as I know how to describe it. God in love sent Jesus Christ to assume our enslaved Adamic nature. It’s terminated on the cross, and then God raises Jesus from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. And the gospel is this: that story, that Trinitarian story, is our story. It’s your story, Anthony. It’s my story. It’s the story of every human.

We die in Christ. We believe that one died, therefore all died, and therefore we believe that we will be incorporated also into his resurrection. Because what these stories tell us is that Jesus is in the business of bringing life where there is death. And that’s the hope of the world.

[00:46:45] Anthony: Yes and amen. And we see these stories of the woman who had been bleeding for 12 years, the little girl, and these were resuscitations, right? Eventually that little girl died. Eventually the woman who had been bleeding died. Jesus died. I think of our mutual friend, Jeff McSwain, who I heard say once that we have to be reminded that God, the Father, did not save Jesus from death; he saved him through death.

And that is our story, but on the other side is resurrection.

Hallelujah. Praise God. As we just celebrated Resurrection Sunday. And he has, not only the first word, but the final word. And that, my friends, is good news. And I want to remind you to take heart: you do not know what is coming, but we know who is coming. And that makes all the difference.

Chris, I want to thank you for being with me today. It’s such a pleasure to hear you herald the gospel. It’s made my heart leap with joy and I’m so, so grateful for the way that God has you participating in his ministry. Keep it up, my brother.

And I think I heard you mention a podcast that you host if people want to listen further to your great British accent and your takes on theology.

How do they find your podcast? Where do they go?

[00:48:06] Chris: Yeah, it’s OnScript. Just type in “on script” and you will find it. I’m one of the cohosts, and we simply interview authors about their recently published works, among other things. We’ve done a few other things as well, but that’s largely what we do.

[00:48:25] Anthony: Fantastic. I want to thank our podcast team, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and David McKinnon for their excellent work. It’s behind the scenes. You don’t actually often see it. But it’s what makes this podcast go, and I’m so grateful.

Chris, it is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb to end with prayer. And I’d be thankful if you would give thanks and praise and offer a prayer on behalf of all of our listeners.

[00:48:52] Chris: I certainly will. Yeah. And just remember, folks, Mark’s Gospel is there to point us to Jesus. And this is who he is this incredible, glorious Son of God who brings life where there is death.

And Father, we thank you for the hope that we have in Jesus Christ. Thank you for the word of love, of life, of power that you have spoken in him. And Father, we pray that we would be faithful children, brothers and sisters and mothers of the Lord Jesus Christ, remembering that you love us as the greatest and the most glorious Father.

May we bring life in Christ where there is death. May we be agents of incorporation, of goodness, of wisdom. May we not be like the Pharisees at the beginning and conspiring with Herodians. May we be wise, skillful readers of Scripture, always pointing to you, risen Lord. And in your triune name, we give thanks and praise. Amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

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Bonus Episode w/ Andrew Root

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to a bonus episode of Gospel Reverb. We like a bonus, right? Extra fries at the bottom of the Five Guys’ fast food cheeseburger bag or overtime of a great sporting event, bonus episode of the favorite TV show or a BOGO special at the grocery — we like bonus! And so here we have a completely free and bonus episode.

Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest Dr. Andrew Root.

Andy is a Professor of Theology, Youth Ministry and Culture at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He’s written a number of books and given lectures and presentations across the country and around the globe to church groups, universities and academic communities. In this episode, we will discuss Andy’s book Churches and the Crisis of Decline. I’ve read the book, listened to the audio book, and it’s insightful. And it’s challenging. Do yourself a solid and pick up a copy.

Andy, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’re glad you’re here. We’ve been trying to do this for a while. We’d love to know a bit of your personal story and how you are participating with the Lord these days.

Andrew: Yeah. First, thanks for having me. And yeah, I guess probably the most direct way is talking to folks like you and just doing a lot of podcasts and a lot of teaching. But I would say right now my vocation around this series, which this book Churches and the Crisis of Decline fits within, has really pushed, I think, my ministry.

And I guess I believe, in fear and trembling, where God is moving is just helping people who have been in ministry stay in ministry by seeing some of the larger forces that are making ministry really hard right now. I hope that I’ve been a fellow companion as people have wrestled with the frustrations and the joys, but a lot of the sufferings of ministry right now.

Anthony: Do you have a favorite book in the series that you’ve written?

Andrew: Yeah. A bit, I think that’s like asking, what’s your favorite, which child do you like best?

Anthony: You have a favorite.

Andrew: I’m definitely not going to say that on the air.

Anthony: Okay. All right. We tried.

Andrew: The story always goes, no one has a favorite child, and then you name the one that is your favorite. And I’m not going to do that.

But yeah, this one I do like a lot because, I think, it’s trying to put together some pretty divergent things like the story of Karl Barth with a fictional story of a church that I’ve written. So, I like this one quite a bit, but I don’t know. The one that I always like the most is the one I’m working on right now.

Or the one that hasn’t seen the light of day yet or something. There is something like parenting where you try to do everything you can to kind of birth this child and give it the best chance to exist in the world. But once they leave your house to go to college You got to realize they’re out of your control in some sense.

And yeah, so I look at them all fondly. They all took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. But yeah, probably the one I’m working on right now, which in some sense, I can’t even talk about which one I’m working on right now. Not because it’s a secret, but because when you’re in the middle of it, it takes a while to figure out how do I even talk about what I’m thinking and what I’m trying to get out on the page now.

That’s, for me, the way it is. I heard one very famous French philosopher say once they write a book, it’s dead to them. Like they never think about it again. And that’s not quite me, but I do understand this, just moving forward, working on the next thing. And now let the books that are out do their work out there.

[00:04:30] Anthony: I’m curious — I’ve never written a book; writing’s intimidating to me. And I’m just curious if you’ve faced this. I think it might’ve been Rob Bell I heard say this once: when you pull up your Word document (or whatever you work in) and that blinking cursor, it’s so intimidating. Like where do I start?

Do you have that issue ever where you have writer’s block or just getting started is really hard?

[00:04:55] Andrew: Yeah, for sure. For sure I have that. And I also have just the constant — really, to be honest, I see writing as a spiritual discipline. That makes me seem very pious and holy, but it’s a form of suffering really.

I think it is. Writing is something you have to suffer. And I do think it’s a calling in that way that there are those days where just nothing comes out. Or even you’ve written a chapter or two and you’re like: I thought this was really good yesterday, and today I think it’s really awful. And you’re battling this.

Or you have someone in the back of your mind, you think is going to read this that you’re writing to, and you’re not sure that you can meet their critiques or something like that.

In some ways for me, I would never write if I did it only when I felt like it. It has to be a kind of discipline that I just return to and put myself in jail and work my three and a half hours and then go away from it and work it again. And it is a bit like a craft for me.

Like you’re just working a piece of wood or working a stone, and it definitely bloodies my hands. And there are some days where you wrestle to get 200 words out. And then there’s days where all of a sudden 2, 500 words come or 4, 000 words come.

And those are great. But the majority of it is just trying to scrape something coherent out of your brain.

[00:06:20] Anthony: Gotcha. Before we get into the content of the book, let’s tackle an immensely important subject. You wrote it during the height of the COVID pandemic. And like all of us, we’re watching a lot of streaming TV shows. Now I don’t need a pandemic to watch a lot of TV. I don’t know if you have that same issue.

But anyway, let’s fast forward to 2024. Do you have a TV show or two that you would recommend to us that you really like right now?

[00:06:48] Andrew: Yeah, probably the best show I’ve watched, say, in the last two or three months is the new season of Fargo. It is amazing.

And the way it ends in the final episode, which I won’t give away because you need to just experience it, but you do need to know if you start into the newest season that it ends in an utterly beautiful way. So, every episode was great, but the ending just is something really, just something magnificent.

So that would be one. The other series I just finished recently was the newest True Detective on HBO. And the final episode is worth exploring, but for the opposite reasons, it doesn’t open up anything transcendent to mystical. It closes it down in a certain way.

And I won’t ruin the ending of that, but I found myself more screaming at the TV in disappointment after that one. But both I think give anyone who’s watching with a kind of theological lens or trying to think about our cultural moment, both will leave you a lot to think about.

[00:07:58] Anthony: Yeah, of course, Fargo may be some geographical bias up your way in Minnesota, right?

[00:08:05] Andrew: According to the show, there’s a murder every few hours here in the Twin Cities.

[00:08:13] Anthony: Get out of Dodge, man. Get out of Dodge, man.

All right. So, let’s talk about the book. What prompted you to write Churches and the Crisis of Decline?

[00:08:22] Andrew: Yeah, probably the prompt was — first of all, it’s a failure in some ways because the series that I was writing, Ministry in a Secular Age, which was really a kind of wrestling with the Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor’s epic work called A Secular Age and trying to apply it to ministry, but really be more inspired to do theological construction from it.

It was supposed to only be a three-volume series, and this was the volume that made it four. And made me a liar to everyone that I was going to make you read a lot more. And it became actually six volumes, and we finally decided to shut it down. But this book really did come out of this sense that there was obviously more to say.

And I wanted to do a kind of full ecclesiology in the final volume of this series. That was a book called The Congregation in the Secular Age, but as the title says, it kind of points to it, it became more just focused on the congregation and not a full ecclesiology and then I thought I’d do a full ecclesiology in this book.

And it kind of became that, but kind of not. And there’s just more to say. And I was particularly really fascinated with thinking about a kind of theology, a modern theology that could break into what Charles Taylor calls the “immanent frame.” And what he means is this kind of predisposition we have as modern people to presume the world is made up of natural material things as opposed to transcendent or supernatural things, and that we live an innate kind of bias that tends to see the world as more immanent natural material.

And yet, I think there’s been some really interesting ways of trying to imagine a way God breaks in and trying to think of the church as a community that can find life through an inbreaking God as opposed to — which really becomes the kind of enemy and opposition in this boo — narratives of decline. The book has an incredible clickbait title: Churches in the Crisis of Decline. But really, it’s a little bit of a red herring in the title. I’m a little bit too worried that we have narratives of decline that we’re trying to solve in the life of the church instead of being communities that really seek for the living act of God.

And that if we attend more to narratives of God’s action or more take on practices that conform our imagination that way, that those will serve us much better than thinking, “Why do we have such few resources, such limited relevance, and how could we win both those two R’s back? How could we win resources and relevance back?”

I’m trying to recast what we think about the future of the church in a different way than thinking that we’re in a kind of narrative of declension, in a narrative of loss.

[00:11:19] Anthony: You framed the book by turning back to Karl Barth, which you’ve already alluded to, but especially his early years as a pastor and theologian-in-the-making to shape the hopeful ecclesiology to some degree of the book.

And so, my question is right now, many denominations of pastors are seeking the latest and greatest strategy of church survival and growth because they’re experiencing decline. So, my question is why hearken back to the dusty pages of Barth’s theology and ecclesiology?

[00:11:52] Andrew: Yeah, it’s a good question.

And in the worlds that I live in, interpretations of Barth, either even mentioning the name Barth makes people roll their eyes, or you enter into wars on the right way to interpret him. So, it was probably not the smartest thing in the world that I did, for my own self-preservation, to enter into a dialogue with Barth.

But one of the things that I found really interesting, particularly about the early Barth that I think can be informative to us is that Barth, most definitely, and the whole theological movement around him at the time, particularly as they responded to the crisis of World War I, that they even named themselves (or it was shade throw on them that they then took as a kind of badge of honor) is they were called “crisis theology.” They always had this deep sense that there was a crisis.

And I think overall in American Protestantism, we feel like we’re in a crisis, but I think what’s happened and I’m trying to get at in the book is that we’ve got the crisis wrong. The crisis isn’t one of decline; the crisis really is how do we speak again of a living, acting God?

How do we help people in our congregations have an imagination for a God who moves in history and speaks and is bringing salvation to the world? That becomes our crisis. And I do think we’re at moments, like you’re saying, where pastors have to be — we’ll lose some sleep. People who are leading congregations, maybe even leading denominations, probably need to have some sleepless nights tossing and turning.

But I think too often those sleepless nights really are around, how can we be more relevant? How can we get more of what we don’t have? And some of that is legitimate. Most churches in America are one roof leak away from being done, not being able to survive financially because of that.

So, I don’t want to be naive about that. But I think the real crisis before us and the real crisis of what it means to live in a secular age and to inhabit this immanent frame is not the crisis of having less, not the crisis of decline, all of the title. It really is the crisis of: how do we form people to have an imagination to hear again a living speaking God?

So, I wanted to go back to Barth because Barth is this very interesting theologian who wants to be modern. He’s not interested in throwing off modernity and going back to some pre-modern time or recover some pre-modern conception. He wants to be a modern person, but he really wants to explore how even in a modern world God can speak and move, that even inside the immanent frame, which we don’t get to opt out of.

It’s just thrust upon us. It’s the lens that we get from our larger cultural reality. Nevertheless, God can still act and move and speak. And I think that’s a word that American Protestantism needs to hear again. Really, what the church is about is the crisis of wrestling with a God who’s an agent and who speaks and moves in the world.

And that can give us life. It’s its own kind of suffering and struggle in bearing that crisis. But also, there’s something really generative in it that I think can renew us.

[00:15:02] Anthony: As I’ve read Barth, especially Pastor Barth, I’m grateful for somebody who — we often think of Barth as a “dogmatician” and full of dogma, but yet as a pastor, you’re wrestling through these things with a community of people. I think it was George Hunsinger I heard say that I prefer to read theologians who preach sermons at a local church, they have to work this stuff out.

And that’s where Barth is so helpful. It helped frame his theology. In the book, you talk about churches tend to center themselves by centering their survival as the main focus of their speech and energies. But you want us to redirect those efforts, as you’ve already talked about, to the living God.

And the phrase (though it seems simple, is very profound) “God is God” appeared many times in the pages of the book to acknowledge this transcendent and immanent God. Why should “God is God” be so important to a declining church?

[00:16:11] Andrew: Yeah, I think it is kind of a nonsensical statement. Eberhard Busch (who is Karl Barth’s last secretary, administrator, teaching assistant and then his first real significant biographer) talks about this phrase that kind of started Barth’s revolution. “God is God.” It’s almost a nonsensical phrase; it’s only two words, three words total, two distinct words: God is God. And what are we actually getting at here?

But it is this really profound assertion that God is uncontrollable, that God cannot be controlled. And I think one of the issues we have in just the context of modern life, but particularly American Protestantism’s response, is we feel so much like we’re in decline that we want to turn God into a product that we can sell.

We want God to somehow serve our needs or the church’s continuation, not that the church needs to be drawn deeper and deeper into God’s life. So, the assertion that God is reminding us that God is uncontrollable, that God acts, and God moves, that God is not at our beck and call. But what we’re called to stop and try to discern how God is moving with within our lives.

And I think that’s really important. Like I said at the beginning, I was trying to at least move towards a kind of full ecclesiology here, and I don’t think I got there, but I was starting to take the steps there. And I think one of the first things we have to say in ecclesiology, about trying to ask, what is the church, was that one of the important theological points is that the church cannot be the star of its own story.

And I think almost every consultant who comes to a church that feels like it is in decline or that it is losing out market share in its community, almost the first question is, so what’s your church’s story? What’s your story? What differentiates you within this market? What is your story that we need to tell as a kind of marketing move?

And there some of that, of course, is necessary just as we deal with institutional structures and things like that. But theologically, the church has no story. The story that the church attends to is the story of God. The church has no story of its own. Its own story isn’t what matters. What matters is God’s story.

And the church doesn’t even get to be best supporting actor in this drama of God’s work in the world. Really, the world is. God is ministering to the world. And the church plays a significant role to narrate that story, to participate in it, witness to it, and point to it. The story that matters, that will fuel the church, is this story of how God is acting in the world.

I just hear so many churches that are always looking for their unique story. What do they innovatively do within their community? Maybe there’s some of that’s necessary, but I worry it decenters the very act of God in moving people to be interested in attending to how God is acting and telling those kinds of stories, as opposed to telling stories about what sets us apart in the market.

So, I really want to push that “God is God,” and therefore it’s God’s story that really matters here. And that our job is to try to attend to that story, to try to discern what God is doing in the world.

[00:19:44] Anthony: I appreciated the emphasis that you put on God “is”. There is a here and now, “I am” dynamic.

So, when we proclaim the name, Emmanuel, God is with us — not God was with us and now he’s disappeared and no longer on the scene, but he’s actively at work. And what is he doing? Like you said, discerning what he’s up to in the neighborhood where you’re at in your context. And so, it seems to me, what you might be saying is: we’re talking about anthropology when we should be talking theology. Who is God and what’s he doing?

You wrote, and I quote, “Fifteen is no shame. A community of fifteen people seeking the living Christ is beautiful.” You wrote it. So, I assume you believe it. Though I’ve come back and listened to some old sermons and I’m not sure I believe everything I say, but I’m going to trust that you believe it.

So, if you do, help us to understand how that’s a truthful statement.

[00:20:45] Andrew: Yeah. I think there is this certain late modern, kind of scrim we see the world through, that we haven’t been attentive enough to, which is that we live with a certain logic of escalation and that all things that are good continue to escalate and get more and grow.

And you’ll hear people say that only healthy things grow, which I suppose is true. Like the doctor says, your eight-year-old is not where they should be for their age. That’s a huge issue. But however, on the other side, like if you had an eight year old and your eight-year-old was 6’ 9”, you’d also be really worried. That doesn’t necessarily mean there’s health there too.

So, my point is, just things escalating and just things growing at the level of resource and say, relevance (to use those words again), I don’t think that’s the measure of a good church. I just don’t think that that can hold weight to really what the measure of a good church is. A church theologically that is good is one that is proclaiming Christ and him crucified, is living deeply in each other’s lives, is witnessing out in the world, as well as within their own life. This God who takes what is dead and makes it alive, they are living that story out. They are being sent into the world to minister to it.

So, I think there is absolutely no shame in being a small community. I think that is absolutely beautiful. And I think so much of our perspectives in Protestantism is to think what is big is better.

And I don’t know if that’s always necessarily the truth. And I guess that becomes part of the problem with this whole narrative of decline and thinking that’s our biggest issue is that the only way out of that, you imagine, is what the sociologist Hartman Rosa, the German sociologist, talks about as dynamic stabilization.

That we think the only thing that can stabilize our institution is further and further growth. And then this logic of escalation just then never stops. You just have to keep growing and growing and growing. You have to keep going faster and faster. You need to keep innovating and finding new and go and go.

And yet I’m not exactly sure that’s reflective of what God calls us to or of the biblical narrative. I don’t know that there’s this deep sense of continuing to escalate things as much as what it means to participate in. So, growth isn’t about just getting more and more. I think biblically it’s about growing into something, growing into being in Christ, of a deeper sense of participation in the Trinitarian life.

And you can do that with 15 people really sharing each other’s humanity isn’t dependent on thousands of people or thousands of dollars in a budget. So, I just want us to have a bit of a different kind of moral framework about what makes a church good. And I think it really is goodness is embedded in what it means to proclaim the gospel and participate in each other’s lives as a way of participating in God’s life and growing into being reflective of Christ’s ministry in the world more than it is to substantiate our institutions by having excess resources, more capital than we need, enough capital to always be able to exist beyond the day or the year or the decade.

[00:24:29] Anthony: I appreciate what you said about what are we growing into? It really is: how do we see growth? And I want to ask you a question. If you were sitting with a pastor of a church, a small church, and in my context, most of our churches are small and sometimes pastors feel defeated, like somehow, they’re doing something wrong.

If you had the privilege to sit with one of these pastors and you’d want to speak truth into their life, in their feelings of frustration and shame that they’re not accomplishing whatever someone else says they need to accomplish. What would you say to them?

[00:25:07] Andrew: Yeah, my answer would be, and maybe this dates me a bit, but it would be a little bit of a Goodwill Hunting response. At the very end of that Matt Damon, Robin Williams, Ben Affleck movie, where Robin Williams’ character tells Matt Damon’s character: it’s not your fault. In some sense, what I want to communicate to pastors right now — because inside this kind of logic of escalation, inside these kinds of senses of dynamically stabilizing things only through a growth, not a growth into, but a growth of more and more — it’s very easy, what happens in that as you enter into hyper competitive spaces.

So, you’re always competing for these resources. There’s a limited amount of them. How do we get more and more? And therefore, when you start to look at your church, and it’s small, or you haven’t done what you think when you came out of seminary or you took your first call and you thought this is what I was going to do, and there’s just been frustration. It’s very easy to either blame yourself or blame your people. It’s my fault. Gosh, if I only was talented enough. If I only was a better preacher, if only this community’s demographics were different.

Or you start to blame your congregation. If these people weren’t so hardheaded, if these people would just give more money. You start to either blame yourself or blame others.

And that will just suck the life right out of you. And there’s really no renewal in the midst of that because it will create forms of resentment where you either resent your congregation or you start resenting yourself. And I think, so my words would be — and this is really why this whole series was written is to say these forces are making ministry hard.

First of all, as I say, ministry is really hard right now. Yes, it is. And it is hard for really large cultural realities. And this is not the golden age of church leadership. And that’s okay because God will see us through. So, I think that’s ultimately what I want to say is it’s not your fault.

And that is also not your job to save the church. It is a certain kind of odd chauvinism to think it’s our job to save the church, as if God needs us to somehow save the confession of Jesus Christ in America. Now the church is God’s responsibility, and we will be called to deep forms of responsibility in obedience to God.

But really what we’re to do is to embrace the beauty of the gospel itself, to remember the absolute pleasure, the absolute wonder and a hardship, but wonder of walking with people in life and death, of pointing to this very narrative bound in the actuality of our lives of a God again, who takes what is dead and makes it alive.

The gospel itself is so beautiful and the ministerial task, the pastoral task is so profoundly important to just walk with people and prepare them to die well and live well, to celebrate before God and to find forgiveness and healing with one another. That is such an amazing task to remember that, to remember the beauty of that.

And yet I’m so concerned that all gets wiped away because we say to pastors: you got to grow this thing by 30%, 40%. You got to win market share. You got to go, you got to go, you got to go. And all of a sudden just being with a couple when the husband gets diagnosed with dementia or a young woman gets diagnosed with breast cancer and just praying with her and seeing her through this long battle and then helping her die well, and then preaching the gospel at her funeral is unbelievably beautiful. It is hard. It is heart wrenching, but it also is beautiful.

So, I’d ultimately just want to remind us of the incredible gift that we’ve been given, called to, which is to proclaim the gospel in the real, lived concrete lives of walking with people.

[00:29:33] Anthony: Well said. Plus, you got a Goodwill Hunting reference in there. Well, done, sir. That scene where Robin Williams and Matt Damon are sitting on a bench, and Williams is challenging him about the experiences of life was just so beautiful! But that was really well said.

The book articulates how if a church is going to take seriously engaging the living God it has to be a church that waits on God. Andy, this waiting ain’t popular, man. It feels passive and therefore unproductive. Can waiting on God really be the way? And if so, what does it really mean to wait on God?

[00:30:19] Andrew: Yeah, I say this to groups of people all the time, like right before I drop, it’s about waiting.

I say, you’re going to hate this. You’re just going to absolutely hate this. And for the most part, I’ve been proven right. People hate it. Especially as middle class, upwardly mobile people, we hate waiting. And in many ways, waiting is the enemy of a kind of late consumerist society.

We’re trying to, as one social theorist says, we’re trying to take all the waiting out of wanting so, part of the consumer society is to get you whatever you want without waiting. So, your Amazon droid is going to be dropping off your package as soon as you click it at some point. So, we want that to occur.

So, I understand that. And there are forms of waiting, don’t get me wrong, where — I’d actually say I’m not the most patient person in the world. So waiting is not easy for me. And I did have an experience just a few weeks ago of being at the Apple store and getting my watch upgraded and them asking me if I wanted to pair the watch while I was in the store.

And I figured that takes something off my to-do list. Let’s do that. But then it had to do a software update. So, I had to sit there and watch the percentage of the software update download happen. And it was a busy Sunday, and the bandwidth was being eaten up and it was excruciating. It was the most awful form of waiting ever. It felt just like a certain kind of hell. I get it — there are a lot worse things in life than that, but it was not a fun form of waiting.

So, this is usually how we think about waiting is that waiting is some kind of blockage to action. But there is a different, I think, sense of waiting that is really much more profound that I’m trying to get us to. And it all does go back to this idea of God is the one who acts. If God “is, and that “is” means that this God is an actor, that this God acts and reveals God’s being and God’s action, then the disposition we need — to be able to discern and interpret God’s action and to participate in it because we’ve encountered it — is to stop and wait, is to wait on this God.

And we have these biblical themes everywhere. The great Psalm, “Be still and know I am God.” I’ve been told by some Old Testament experts that one way you can interpret that or translate that in the Hebrew is put down your hands and know I am God. In other words, stop fighting me and stop trying to do all this stuff. Stop trying to do more and more. Just put down your hands and receive something that I have a gift to give you.

And Martin Luther, too, thought that the Christian life becomes a fundamentally passive life. Not that we don’t act. He thought we acted. We have to act for our neighbor. We have to minister to our neighbor. We have to proclaim the gospel to the world, but it becomes a passive act of a response to receiving a gift that God is the one who acts to justify, to save, and that our waiting is to receive the gift of salvation.

And really, we forget this, but in Luke Acts, and in the movements from Luke to Acts, the first command that starts the church — we love thinking of the church being birthed in Acts 2 with Pentecost, and we particularly love the text, “And then thousands were added to their number.”

For dynamic stabilization and for where we are at in our modern context, that’s just a luscious text. “Thousands were added to their number.” But we forget that the first command that forms the church, that really gathers the community is to the men on the road to Emmaus, where Jesus tells them to return to Jerusalem and to wait. So that’s a waiting together in community. That’s a waiting by telling our stories of loss and suffering of confusion. It’s waiting as a process of discernment.

And so, I think waiting becomes an essential way that we turn our bodies, that we turn our lives towards one another and towards the anticipation of God’s action. The distinct difference about me waiting for my software to download, and the kind of waiting I think is really quite a holy act, is that the kind of waiting that I’m calling for is a certain kind of attentiveness. It’s being attentive to something. It’s waiting with a story, what I call in the book a watchword: a word that we’re on watch, a way we [inaudible] know God moves. Like when there’s no way this God makes a way, out of death comes life. We hold those stories as we wait.

And then as we start to testify to our experiences, to our experiences of loss and of hope and of need and of want, we start to even just look at those stories through our watchword. And I’m trying to discern what God is doing and how God is acting, and I think we become very attentive to the movement of the Spirit in that way.

So, it’s a kind of waiting that reminds us again that God is God and to discern, to be a community, that the job of the church is fundamentally discern how the Spirit is moving

[00:35:27] Anthony: There have been friends in my circle, pastors, lay folks who have experienced their church closing, and they have actively waited on God, Andy. And they just feel broken when their congregation has to close.

You wrote in your book, “It’s no shame for a congregation to close—no failure necessarily, for a pastor to journey with a congregation into death.” Whew. That can feel icky for people experiencing a church closure.

So, can you help us unpack that? I think you’ve touched on it, but can you develop the thought further?

[00:36:06] Andrew: Yeah. I think it’s not surprising to me that around our discourses around the church, that one of the things we feel the most shame around is having to close the church. And I do think that there are leaders whose responsibility it is to continue to plant churches, to continue to think about how churches can have a sustained life.

But there also is a kind of denial of death that we can enter into here if we don’t recognize that sometimes the tragic occurs and that a church has to close and that isn’t always a church’s fault, that someone needs to be blamed for it. Sometimes it’s just life.

And this is a weird age we live in. One of the main things I’m trying to get at in these six books is that this is a kind of weird age. And what it really means to live in a secular age is to live in a time where you can go a long ways without thinking about God. Like you can go a long ways.

People will even say things like, I was going to church for a while, but I’m just going to take a break from God for a while. I just decided I need a break from God. You could never imagine a medieval person being able to say that. They couldn’t even imagine that was a possible thing that you could say.

But we live in a cultural context where people can go a long way, not thinking about God. That’s quite weird in the whole landscape of human history. It’s just as weird and pretty interconnected, I think, that people can go a long way in our cultural context not remembering, forgetting, not thinking about the fact they’re going to die, that they are finite creatures.

And the churches, congregations, the church universal, I think exists in a different way in a different place in God’s economy. But congregations, gathered expressions of the church, are made up of bodies, of human bodies. And Bonhoeffer reminded us in Life Together that to love the church is not to love the idea of the church, but to love the real church, and that always means real human bodies. And communities that are made up of real human bodies will have a lifespan.

So and so First Baptist, First Presbyterian, First United Methodist, First whatever, these are not eternal forms. They are gathered communities that gather and through our bodies proclaim the resurrection of Jesus Christ. But I don’t think any of them will exist in a thousand years, you know probably not. The church will. The church will continue to gather in some way.

But these are historically bound realities, and the very confession of the incarnation reminds us of that. The very confession of the Ascension, that Jesus bodily ascends, reminds us that we are always bodies in a place, and that pastoral ministry is always done as a body to bodies. And that does mean that some of us will have the ministry, and have the heavy burden of closing churches, because the bodies have died off the that they can no longer. The community itself can no longer sustain the life of these people.

And there isn’t shame in that. There would be as much shame in that as the shame of doing a funeral for a person, which is not any shame. It is an incredible, like I said, honor and privilege.

And maybe in the same way, it’s heavy, but that’s the same kind of way of closing a church. It is painful. Just like it’s painful for someone to die, but it also is part of what it means to be a finite creature.

[00:39:44] Anthony: Death is the dynamic, in a sense. As a friend often says to me, the Father did not save the Son from death but saved him through death. And death is a part of the experience, and it is not shameful. And I really appreciate your words. Because again, I know we have people in our listening audience who are hurting from this and that’s okay. God is still on the move.

And speaking of the books that you’ve written, Andy, (and you’ve written over 20) you’ve mentioned this is part of a six book series beyond the book that we’re talking about right now.

And I know you’ve already said, hey, my favorite book is the one I’m writing. But would you recommend a particular book or books to us that help further this framing of ecclesiology and what God is doing in the church.

[00:40:41] Andrew: Yeah, I actually think probably the place to start, the maybe entry way in, probably the best way, is a little book that just came out last year called, When the Church Stops Working, (which also is a very clickbait title). When the Church Stops Working.

But I really do mean it in a double kind of meaning. Obviously, you know there’s a sense we have that the church isn’t working well. But there also is a sense that what might heal us, what might renew us is not doing more, but actually working less, in receiving God’s gift.

But it’s a book that is in some ways a synthesis of the six volumes that really is written more for lay people. I think it’s a book that pastors can read with folks in their church. It’s what it’s written for. And so, I think it’s a good way in. Even if you feel like you want to get into the six volumes, this would be a good gateway drug, for use of a bad analogy.

[00:41:51] Anthony: Drug usage, as well. This podcast is off the rails.

[00:41:50] Andy: I mean like NyQuil or Tylenol or something like that.

[00:41:53] Anthony: Sure. Sure.

Finally, let me ask you this. What is your hopeful vision of the church in this era of history in a secular world?

[00:42:04] Andrew: Yeah, my hopeful message is that God still acts, and that God will be faithful, and that Jesus Christ is on the move, that the Spirit is being poured out and that God is at work. And yeah, these are hard times. But God is moving. And I think that, like I said, there’s just utter beauty and significance in gathered communities that pray, of pastoral leadership that leads us to celebrate our joys and suffer our great losses. And that this is a valuable thing. And God is moving within it. And I think remembering that the church is God’s responsibility.

And that also this seems like a kind of counterintuitive positive word, but there have been worse times. There have been more difficult times, and the church has made it through. And so, I think we can hang on to that, that God is faithful.

[00:43:16] Anthony: Yeah! Friends, the book is Churches and the Crisis of Decline. I certainly recommend it too, and I’ve read several of Andy’s books. There’s not a bad one out there that I know of; maybe he knows of something I don’t. But thank you so much for being a part of this podcast.

And I want to say on a personal level. I’m so grateful for your labor of love in Christ’s service. In our denominational context, Grace Communion International, we talk frequently about place-sharing, which is a wink to you and your work and engagement with Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Relationship is an end to itself. The beauty of, as you said earlier, of sitting with a person who has a diagnosis that breaks their heart and not trying to move them from A to B, but just sitting with them, being with them, and their joys and sorrows, their pains, their doubts, their confusion, as they sit with us. That’s the beauty because God is there.

So, thank you, Andy.

[00:44:12] Andrew: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

[00:44:13] Anthony: Absolutely. And it’s our tradition here at Gospel Reverb to end with a prayer. So, would you pray over the church?

[00:44:19] Andrew: I would.

God, thank you for this time together, and thank you for these people who are listening. And may you encourage them, even right now, as they’re listening, that you are pleased that their ministry is witnessing to your movement in the world. So, God, would you renew us again and again? And give us visions of your continued action in the world. Amen.

The post Bonus Episode w/ Andrew Root first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Can I Get a Witness? w/ Terry Ishee

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest, Terry Ishee. Terry is the executive director of Forge America, a community of practitioners, cultivating practitioners who joined the everyday mission of God. He’s also the co-founder and executive coach of Sequoia’s Coaching and Consulting.

And I spent a year learning and gaining new insights from Terry as he coached me in church planting. And it just seemed every conversation we had an “aha” or sometimes the “oh,” which could be really valuable to my participation in the Lord’s ministry. Terry is married to Amy, and they have [a daughter] and he lives in Texas. Big football fan.

Terry, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d love to know a bit about your story. And how you are participating with the Lord these days.

[00:01:44] Terry: Thank you, Anthony, for having me on. I love you; I love your tribe and I love your people.

And it’s been fun to get to meet several of your pastors and leaders from around the country. And man, it’s just a joy to be here with you today.

[00:01:58] Anthony: Awesome. Our some of our listeners will be familiar with Forge America and some won’t. You’re the executive director. So, we’re going to go straight to the source.

What is Forge America? And what is the organization’s relationship with the church?

[00:02:13] Terry: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, Forge America is actually a part of a larger global movement. Forge Global is an organization where we hold the missional incarnational impulse of Jesus and kingdom movements. We hold that up. We champion that.

And so, we exist in eight countries around the world. Forge America is about 14 years old, and I’ve served on the team for about 13 of those years. And where Forge intersects with the church, we really believe in a practitioner way of community.

And what we’ve discovered, especially in the West where we’re seeing church decline — and I’m sure that we don’t need to go into all of that and all the issues that where we see ourselves in the current landscape of a church in America — but what we’re trying to do is recapture a practitionership, an apprentice style of discipleship, where we are seeing ourselves one in the image of God.

But also, we’re the sent ones of Jesus. And just as the Father sent the Son, the Son and Spirit have sent us to be his ambassadors, to his advocates, to be the hands and feet to be love manifest in the world. So, we actually come alongside church leaders and organizational leaders and help them actually cultivate this type of practitionership, this type of disciple making.

And Forge is an organization where no one does Forge full time, which I find to be just a fascinating thing in my own life. And so, I you mentioned Sequoias. I do a lot of coaching and work outside of Forge. Forge kind of is the big paradigm shaping organization. I work with a lot of people who are wrestling with the big picture piece. Sequoias really serves as an organization that comes along in the implementation piece. And so, Forge is very much a visionary type organization; Sequoias is very much an integration implementing type organization.

And then I’m also a pastor. I’ve been a pastor for 27 years. I’ve planted five churches, and as a church planting catalyst, I’ve worked alongside 150 plus church plants and church planters. And that’s just been a joy.

And I am a pastor; I’m a missionary in my everyday life, and that is my primary thing that I give my energy and time to. And everything I do with Forge, everything I do with Neighborhood Church Collective, and everything I do with Sequoias is an overflow of that practice. And so we are, I’m very much a practitioner first type of guy.

[00:05:09] Anthony: Yeah, that’s encouraging to hear because we’re going to talk Scripture and theology, but if it’s disconnected from the actual work of the church and the life of the body, something’s missing, right?

The fact that you’re focused on practitioners is a beautiful thing. So let me put you on the spot. If somebody wanted to find out more about Forge or Sequoias or the neighborhood organization you mentioned, how would they find you?

[00:05:34] Terry: Yeah. So forgeamerica.com is the website. If you’re looking for some tangible practical tools, forge.teachable.com has our membership portal. It’s where people who are part of our tribe that are like, hey, this is how I’m actually cultivating. This is where our resourcing is found. It’s where our training is found, but forgeamerica.com, forge.teachable.com — lots of great information.

And there’s some great freebies. And so, you don’t — we try to be a very generous organization. That’s the beautiful thing about not having full-time staff is you have low overhead, so we’re able to give away quite a bit and be generous with the church. And that’s a great place to find that.

And then Sequoia’s coaching and consulting. One of the things we found out when we named our organization, Sequoia’s, we actually got it from Wendell Berry’s poem, where he’s speaking in Mad Farmers Manifesto [sic] [Manifesto: The Mad Farmer Liberation Front], where he says, “Ask the questions that have no answers. Invest in the millennium. Plant sequoias.”

And so, we love this idea of lasting impact, that what you do today can have an impact a hundred years from now. Sequoias, those redwoods take forever to come to full maturity. And so, the picture of lasting impact was really a big part of why we named it Sequoias.

The problem with that is Sequoias is a hard word to spell. I think every vowel that exists is in that word. And so, on a day-to-day basis, I can’t remember the order of those vowels. And you can find us online at bigtrees.cc. Yeah, if you know how to spell sequoias, you can find us at sequoias.cc for coaching and consulting, but you can also find us at bigtrees.cc. And there’s lots of information; it shows the 50 plus organizations that we’ve had the privilege of working with in coaching. And yeah, that’s how you can find us.

[00:07:32] Anthony: I’m glad Sequoia is not a wordle word five letters, because I would never get there. I’d never spell it. That’s right. And thank God for Wendell Berry. Any guy that’s from Kentucky he’s a good guy.

All right, let’s get to it! Here are the lectionary passages we’ll be discussing:

John 15:9-17, “A Long Obedience in the Same Direction”

Luke 24:44-53, “Can I Get a Witness?”

John 15:26-27; 16:4-15, “Truth-Teller”

John 3:1-17, “Born Anew”

Our first passage of the month is John 15:9-17. I’ll be reading from the Common English Bible. It’s the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the sixth Sunday in Easter, which is May 5.

“As the Father loved me, I too have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have said these things to you so that my joy will be in you and your joy will be complete. 12 This is my commandment: love each other just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love than to give up one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 I don’t call you servants any longer, because servants don’t know what their master is doing. Instead, I call you friends, because everything I heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You didn’t choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you could go and produce fruit and so that your fruit could last. As a result, whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give you. 17 I give you these commandments so that you can love each other.

Terry, if you’re exegeting and preaching this sermon or a sermon from this text, what’s going to be your big idea or your central theme?

[00:09:37] Terry: Yeah. Man, this is such a wonderful passage. And I love that it’s love. I think you can’t look at this passage and not really let your theme be this idea of love and to embrace and receive the love of the Father. I think is often missing in the church today, especially in the West.

I think we carry so much shame, and we carry so much baggage from our own lives that sometimes receiving the love of the Father is really difficult. And then that’s the idea of remaining in love. How do we actually remain in love? It’s a big deal.

And then out of that — like I said, I’m a big action guy and so super pragmatic. And so out of receiving the Father’s love, finding those postures of remaining, and keeping place with love because God is love, right? He is love, loving to us. And then out of that, what does it look like to love each other just as we have received the love from the Father?

And so that’s, I think that’s where I’m camping. I want people to understand that at the end of the day, your formation, your discipleship, your worship, it should all be moving towards developing this sort of love that when we are in circumstances, when we’re in life, how do we respond to the world around us?

I find myself struggling with this at times where it’s easy that someone will say something, or someone will do something and it’s inconvenient to myself. And so, do I have a sharp response to that? Or am I able to actually absorb that and respond in love? I’ll give you just a quick example of this.

Recently, me and my wife, we went and did a little date night last week. And we went and saw the new Bob Marley movie, which is, it’s pretty good. I really enjoyed it. And it’s “One Love.” And so, there’s lots of concepts in talking about love and the bigger picture and a that whole thing.

And there was a couple that was behind us and they — Anthony, I’m not kidding, man — they talked the entire time. And it was one of those things where there’s some people, they have — they’re just so clueless to the volume of their own voice. They thinking they’re whispering and making little comments, but they’re talking full volume.

And I can sense my wife next to me, who’s just — she’s boiling. I can feel it. She’s like, oh my gosh, she’s so [inaudible]. My wife has such compassion and is such a rule follower that anytime anyone inconveniences — like her whole life is to not inconvenience people. She just wants to honor and love people so well, but sometimes in the pursuit of, in the idea of inconvenience, she cannot be loving at times because just like you’re inconveniencing people; you’re wrong.

And so, we’re sitting there, and I found myself getting frustrated because movies are like, that’s my spot. Like, this is where I connect with God. And I just remember sitting there and that idea is you know what? I’m, just going to absorb this. I’m going to, yeah. Is it frustrating? Is there something inside of me that wants to stand up and look behind them? Hey, I’m six foot, 280, man; I’m a big guy. I need you to be quiet right now.

Like everything inside of me wanted to do that, but no, that’s not love. That’s not what Jesus would want for me. And so, are we able to, in circumstances, absorb the things that frustrate us? Absorb the things that make us want to operate and respond out of our own worldly flesh and to say, you know what I’m going to respond in love?

I’m going to love; I’m going to love others because Jesus has loved me. And if I were in a movie theater with Jesus, I would probably talk and annoy him too. And he would show me love. And so, in that moment I got to actually exercise my faith and show love and be generous.

And when the movie was over, we made eye contact with the couple. And I just put a big smile on my face, and I hoped my presence and my smile would just be a sense of blessing to them. Hey, you’re good. You’re wonderful. You are loved.

And it was great, and it didn’t take anything away from the movie. It actually enhanced the movie for me because it was a reminder that we’re to be a people of love. And so that’s where I would take that.

[00:14:09] Anthony: I would have stood up and said, get behind me, Satan! Because Jesus has done that. So right. You’re a better man than me. That’s for sure.

It states in verse 16, the Lord chose us. And He loves us, verse 9. And so, we are empowered by the Spirit to produce lasting and sustainable fruit. And that matters to God. So, Terry, talk to us about the long haul of discipleship in a world that frankly values the next shiny object, what’s going viral, quick fixes.

Talk to us about lasting fruit.

[00:14:44] Terry: Yeah. I think lasting fruit is something that’s not talked about enough. And we live in a world where the fruit we actually discuss are — we talk about the fruit of Mother Teresa, and we talk about the fruit of Hudson Taylor, and we talk about the fruit of these giants in the last 50, a hundred years of the church.

And we look back and we talk about the heroes of the faith, and we speak of their fruit. But man, I think there’s something that we miss about this idea of fruit that is happening slowly over a long period of faithfulness. I think it’s Eugene Peterson who uses that phrase “a long obedience in the same direction,” right?

And so that’s one of our themes for this conversation. And I think that’s what we have to get back to. I think when we think about lasting fruit, I’m not looking for guys and gals who just get up and do these grand slam, home run type things. But what does it look like in my every day walking around, my sleeping, eating and breathing life to be faithful, to be formed into the likeness of Christ? Will I actually submit and surrender my life to practicing the way of Jesus to be shaped and becoming like him? And will my life exhibit fruit from that journey?

I’m a firm believer. I think Jesus keeps it pretty simple that if we would simply be with Jesus over time, the more we spend with Jesus, the more we spend with Father, Spirit, and Son we will become like God. We’re pre-wired, right? We were created in the image of God.

And so that’s actually a more natural progression and direction for our lives. The problem is we don’t often prioritize that space of being with God, like that taking time to just to sit and be silent and maybe even at times find a little bit of solitude and just be with God.

One of my favorite passages is just simply, “Be still and know that I am God.” And so, I will find myself — and I tried to do this every day, where I just sit quietly. And I redirect my focus, my senses on the fact that God is with me right now. And even as we have this conversation, as you’re in Raleigh [NC], I’m here in Austin [TX], God is with both of us right now.

He’s in this moment. And as you’re listening to this and you’re on the podcast, whether you’re sitting at your desk or you’re driving in your car or wherever you might be, God’s presence is with you. And all we have to do is take our crazy focused attention and direct it towards his presence.

[00:17:57] Anthony: Yeah. And we’re there with him.

[00:17:59] Terry: Yeah.

[00:17:59] Anthony: Yeah. Amen. I have been rereading a book from Julie Canlis and she makes the statement, “All of life is spiritual. Work. Bearing children. Hobbies. Friendship. Repairing gutters. Commuting. This is our worship – the offering of our everyday stuff to God.” [A Theology of the Ordinary]

And the powerful formation of that is when we recognize that. That even as I’m podcasting, I’m sharing this with the Lord who is present, as you mentioned. And that is forming.

And I love that book that you referenced from Peterson, A Long Obedience in the Same Direction. And frankly, lasting fruit, that slow fruit doesn’t look very impressive always, right? But it’s the accumulation, over time, of it. We look back and we go, oh, there’s wisdom. I see God at work there.

Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the month. It’s Luke 24:44-53. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Ascension Sunday, which is May the 12th. Terry, would you read it for us, please?

[00:19:02] Terry: I’d be honored to.

Jesus said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you—that everything written about me in the Law from Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. 46 He said to them, “This is what is written: the Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and a change of heart and life for the forgiveness of sins must be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 Look, I’m sending to you what my Father promised, but you are to stay in the city until you have been furnished with heavenly power.” 50 He led them out as far as Bethany, where he lifted his hands and blessed them. 51 As he blessed them, he left them and was taken up to heaven. 52 They worshipped him and returned to Jerusalem overwhelmed with joy. 53 And they were continuously in the temple praising God.

[00:20:03] Anthony: I can hear Kirk Franklin in my head chanting, “Can I get a witness?” Yeah, and Jesus said you are witnesses of these things. But I’m curious; maybe we don’t have a full comprehension of what it means to be a witness. Is it just seeing the goodness of God?

Privatizing that or is there more to it?

[00:20:22] Terry: Yeah, I think that’s a fantastic question. Again, I think we have to keep it simple. I think if you are born anew, if you are a follower of Jesus, if Jesus is king and Lord of your life, there has been something transformative in you, right?

God is doing a work in us. And that is something that we witness. And by faith, we witness who Jesus is, that he is the incarnated God, that he came and lived a life amongst us and lived it as perfect as you can. No one could live a better life. And even in spite of that perfect life of doing no wrong was found by man to be wrong and died on our behalf and in his death, not being defeated, rose again and ascended. Here in this passage, we see him returning to heaven, being taken up.

We are a witness of this. There is a tradition that we are a collective witness to who Jesus is and the work of the Father. I do believe that one, being a witness is a bit self-serving and I don’t say that negatively. It is good. I am grateful that I have eyes to see who Jesus is. That is a blessing and a gift from God. And I have people in my life who do not have that gift. That they, for some reason, they just cannot wrap their mind around the idea of Jesus as Lord, as Jesus as king. And my heart grieves for them. But I don’t think that witness stays there alone.

Being a witness isn’t for my own purpose, my own satisfaction, my own worth, but I am to be a witness for the world; I am to give a report of what I have seen, right? And here’s the thing. I think again, this is so natural in what it means to be human. I think the human experience is to be a witness because we give testimony to all sorts of things, right?

There’s not a person on this earth that doesn’t give witness to something. The question is what are you giving testimony to? And I’m not advocating that we just walk around and talk about Jesus ad nauseam. I don’t think that’s what Jesus would want.

But I think in our everyday life, are we able to attribute who we are and what we exist for? Do we give attribution? Do we give credit to who Jesus is in our life? Can we actually speak of the king and kingdom?

And yeah, so that’s my quick answer. I think we have to be active that it’s not just simply, oh yeah, I saw this, I received this and then it ends with me receiving. But I think there is a sense of receiving and now giving back to others.

[00:23:41] Anthony: Yeah, you mentioned it in one of the previous passages about, or the previous one about love. It moves. There’s a movement. Love cannot be static. It’s got to move toward the other. That’s what it always does. And witnessing, birthed out of love, has to move toward others, right? You can’t keep the story to yourself, man. What good is that? Share it with your lives.

Speaking of the Ascension, it’s often considered one of the big six of Jesus’ earthly activities: birth, baptism, transfiguration, death, resurrection, and Ascension. But it seems to me the Ascension is the one that’s a little bit overlooked and under discussed.

So, from your perspective, Terry, if you agree, why pay attention to Jesus ascending back to the Father?

[00:24:33] Terry: Fantastic question. I agree wholeheartedly and a little soapbox is going to pop out. So, if you want to get your preacher Kirk Franklin on, here we go. No, I won’t go there.

I think one of the reasons why we don’t discuss the Ascension as much is because you can’t talk about the Ascension without a commission, the ascension and the commissioning that Jesus has for us as the witnesses — John 20:21, as the Father has sent me, I now send you. Throughout all of Jesus’ life, he was hinting towards this idea that we are the sent ones that will go and bear witness into the world. That we will go from Jerusalem into Judea and to the ends of the earth.

That’s who we are. It’s part of our identity. We are both created in the image of God, but we are also created as the sent ones of God. And we don’t talk about the ascension because we don’t want to talk about the commission, at times, because the commission costs, right?

I heard someone recently was preaching, and I was fascinated. And at first thought I was like, oh, I got to wrestle with the theology of this. Is this correct? And I haven’t yet pulled away from it. I think it’s spot on. And what they were saying was Jesus’ work towards salvation is free. It costs you nothing except to receive it. It is grace and grace alone that we are found and made right with Jesus. But discipleship, obedience, apprenticeship to Jesus as king and Lord, that cost.

That’s the cost of taking up your cross, to deny yourself. And so, when we talk about the Ascension, it’s just impossible to talk about the Ascension and not talk about that. We will be witnesses.

And the beautiful thing about that is part of the Ascension is that he gives us this power. He gives us the Holy Spirit. We have not been sent to do this of our own accord or our own will, our own power, but that we have been supercharged through the Holy Spirit. That the Spirit is in us, dwells inside of us, and flows from us. And all we have to do is find where God is moving and working and join him.

And there’s something that just comes alive inside of us. And it doesn’t matter how charismatic you are on that scale, and that’s fine. But the Spirit is the Spirit. And so, if it moves you at one mile per hour, it moves you at a hundred miles per hour, it’s the same Spirit. And so can we give way to the Spirit and say, Lord, move through me as I just live an obedient life.

I think that’s how I see it, that I think the Ascension and commissioning are just so intertwined because it was his last thing said for us is that the Spirit is coming, it’s going to indwell in you, and from there you will go and be my witnesses.

[00:27:40] Anthony: Yeah. And that’s that word in the Greek and Acts 1, that you’ll be my witnesses. The word for witnesses, martyr, it’s martyrdom. You talk about costly! Like you were referring to, this will cost you your life and it will give you your life. Paradoxical. Absolutely.

And that makes for a great segue into our next Bible passage, which is for Pentecost. Jesus said, I’ll send the Spirit and the Spirit is sent. John 15:26-27 and 16:4-15. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Pentecost, May 19.

“When the Companion comes, whom I will send from the Father—the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 You will testify too, because you have been with me from the beginning.

But I have said these things to you so that when their time comes, you will remember that I told you about them. “I didn’t say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I go away to the one who sent me. None of you ask me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Yet because I have said these things to you, you are filled with sorrow. 7 I assure you that it is better for you that I go away. If I don’t go away, the Companion won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will show the world it was wrong about sin, righteousness, and judgment. 9 He will show the world it was wrong about sin because they don’t believe in me. 10 He will show the world it was wrong about righteousness because I’m going to the Father and you won’t see me anymore. 11 He will show the world it was wrong about judgment because this world’s ruler stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, but you can’t handle it now. 13 However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you in all truth. He won’t speak on his own, but will say whatever he hears and will proclaim to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and proclaim it to you. 15 Everything that the Father has is mine. That’s why I said that the Spirit takes what is mine and will proclaim it to you.

So, on this Pentecost, Terry, we celebrate the companion, the Holy Spirit coming to us to guide us into all truth. I’m going to ask you to get a bit personal here to testify. So how have you personally experienced the presence and the truth guiding power of the Spirit?

[00:30:12] Terry: Yeah. I’ve been a pastor for 27 years and I …

[00:30:21] Anthony: You’re getting old.

[00:30:22] Terry: I’m getting old, brother. I’m getting old. I started crazy young. I started crazy young, but I didn’t grow up in the church. But when I found the church, it was a Baptist church. And it’s a tribe that I love, and I try to love. Man, sometimes they make it really hard to love them.

And the Trinity for — and this is the old Baptist joke — the Trinity for the Baptist is Father, Son, and Bible. And that’s really what it feels like, right? It’s just study the Bible.

And so early on in ministry, the Holy Spirit was this real stranger. Of course, we acknowledged it as part of the Trinity, but it was the mysterious part of God. And we just left it at that. And then I’m casting a large shadow on a large group of people, but typically that’s the experience of that denominational life.

And as I grew in maturity and grew in my own leadership, I became more and more fascinated with the Holy Spirit. And by no means am I charismatic or I know I’m — it depends who you talk to, right? We’re all shades of different kinds of charismatic. But man, the Holy Spirit has been something in my life that has truly transformed and has made a significant impact on my spirituality. Of every discipline that I have in my repertoire — my daily, weekly, creating a rule of life and a rhythm of seeking to be with God — a silence and reflection on the Holy Spirit has been probably number two.

Man, someone, when I was a young kid — I started ministry when I was 19 years old. I joined a church planting team, and someone said, as a young pastor, I never wanted to come across as a moron or an idiot, which was just hard to do when you’re that young. Of course, you’re going to come across that way.

But someone said, Terry, God makes a promise. He says if you pray for wisdom, he will be faithful and give you wisdom. And so that is my number one spiritual practice is I plead for wisdom from God Father, Son, and Spirit. And I believe wisdom is a beautiful gift that God gives us.

And then right behind that pleading that almost, incessant pleading for wisdom — and it’s even a joke in my family. My daughter, like she’s contemplating dating some bonehead. And I just tell her, “You’re 18. I love you. You love Jesus. I know your life call, your core values, and who you are in the kingdom. Make wise decisions.” And they always make fun of me because that’s my go to: make wise decisions; make wise decisions. God will give you the wisdom to make a wise decision.

But second to that, making wise decisions, seeking wisdom, is I want to hear. I want to hear from God. I want to hear from the Holy Spirit. And so, I actually try to carve out significant time and just sitting still. I’m not the best meditator.

I’m not the best kind of silence person. My mind wanders and I’m all over the place. But one of the things that I’ve discovered is absolute silence isn’t the point. God wants that the journey that our minds go on when we sit and try to be still, Jesus just wants to jump in on that. The Holy Spirit wants to guide that and be in that. And so, I will carve out significant amounts of time to simply, Lord, what’s your next step?

And even Anthony, I don’t think I’ve even told this to you. So, I’ll tell you right here. My daughter is 18. She’s about to graduate high school and go off to college. And we’re going to be empty nesters. And so, we’ve been praying Lord, what’s next for us? So much of our ministry over the last 15 years has been neighborhood based and school based because we are highly missional incarnational people. And all of a sudden it feels like our neighborhood, we’ve lost more neighbors in the last three years than we had in the last 17.

We’ve been in this house for 20 years. We’ve just valued incarnating into one place and sticking, staying put. And we’ve lost more neighbors in the last three than the first 17. Amen. And so, the neighborhood is turned over. It feels different. Almost feels like there’s a release here. The school, obviously we don’t want to be the creepy people that keep coming to school after your kid graduates, which those people exist. And so, we don’t want to be like that.

So, we’ve just been discerning and praying to the Holy Spirit. Lord, what’s next? What’s next for us? Where might you be leading us? And I carve lots of time out just to sit and listen.

And the Spirit has been so faithful that I can look back in my life. Every church plant that I’ve been a part of, the decision to start two separate coaching and consulting firms, joining Forge America 14 years ago, taking on the executive director role two years ago — every one of those moments, there was a season of just sitting in silence and just hearing like, Lord speak.

And if you were to ask: Terry, have you heard the audible voice of God in 27 years, 32 years of following Jesus? I haven’t, but have I felt the nudging and the prompting of the Holy Spirit? I hear it all the time. I feel it all the time. And it’s one of those things where I think it just comes to: can you sit still enough?

And again, it’s a presence issue. We have to enable — if you’re to be a great missionary, when we do missionary training, we want you to have presence with your neighbor. You can’t truly share good news if you don’t know what good news would be to them. So, you have to build a sense of presence. And in order to build a sense of presence, you have to build a sense of proximity, right?

I can’t know what would be good news to my neighbor, if I don’t know my neighbor. The only way to know my neighbor is to be in proximity to my neighbor. The same thing is true of the Spirit. We can’t expect to have presence with the Holy Spirit if we aren’t in proximity with the Holy Spirit. Now, I know that the Holy Spirit is with us at all times. And so, we are technically in proximity of the Holy Spirit all the time. But are we intentionally putting our minds on that proximity?

And so that has been a game changer for me. And for me, I really truly feel like every decision that I’ve made has truly been, and every blessing that God has bestowed on our family has been in cooperation with God and in seeking him and seeking wisdom from the Spirit.

[00:37:53] Anthony: Yeah, that’s good. I like that — proximity, the intentionality of that proximity. And with that proximity, in my mind, I’m seeing the picture in scripture of Jesus with Peter at Caesarea Philippi, where Peter proclaims that Jesus is the Son of God, Messiah to the world, and Jesus affirms him.

And then in the same scene, Peter’s opposed to the mission of God, therefore, the cross. And he says, get behind me, Satan. You’re like, Peter’s got to have whiplash. I just was affirmed and now I’ve been corrected.

And earlier I’d mentioned it comes with coaching the aha’s and the oh moments. And the Spirit is leading us into truth, meaning also revealing what is wrong in the world and what doesn’t look conformed in our lives to the Son of God.

Anything you want to talk about regarding that? How the Spirit is leading us into that kind of wisdom, the aha’s and the oh’s?

[00:38:56] Terry: Yeah, so repentance has been something that has been a bit of a theme in my life. A great friend of mine and actually the founder, one of our founders, a co-founder of Forge America, Alan Hirsch has written just a wonderful, beautiful book on this idea of repentance, reorientation. And it’s called Metanoia. And so, the metanoia moment is that pivot moment, that pivotal moment of turning.

And in my own life, I had a dear friend, Paul Gokey. He’s now in the Houston area. We used to early in our church planting journeys, we’d commiserate with one another because planting a church — which Anthony, I know you’re a church planter and you’ve worked with lots of them — it sometimes can be a very daunting and hard task.

[00:39:50] Anthony: Sure enough.

[00:39:51] Terry: And we would commiserate, and we’d sit, have lunch, and talk. And I remember one afternoon, we were sitting there just chatting and Paul had said, hey part of my life, I seek to live with an ongoing posture of repentance.

And man, that was a seminary class, that was a seminary degree in a conversation. It changed so much for me, how I viewed God, and how I view my response to God. And as we got into it and dug into it, it wasn’t an ongoing posture of repentance that he was beating himself up or constantly in confession of every little thing he did, but it was a posture of repentance or a posture of reorienting himself around Jesus as king.

And Lord, and when I began the task, the challenging task of, can I live my everyday walking, breathing, sleeping life, attempting to orient my life, to make everything the focus of my life, put on everything I see, put on the lenses, the glasses, the sunglasses, the lenses to see Jesus as king? Could I begin to live that sort of life?

And as I began that, what I found was this idea where you walk with the Spirit, and this ability to acknowledge the areas of my life where the world has won over the Spirit, and how do I begin to surrender that piece of me, that God might invade that part of my being and fully make me whole as he intends me to be.

And that’s been a life-changing process. Do I do it perfectly? No. Do I struggle with it? Absolutely. But there is this sense of I’m going to give it the old college try. I just want when my feet hit the ground in the morning, I want to orient my mind: Jesus is King today, just as he was yesterday, and he will be tomorrow.

And so, what are the implications of Jesus is King and Lord of my life? What’s my implications for the next hour and trying to live life that way. And some might be listening to this and say, Oh my gosh, that sounds horrible. That sounds like a, such a burdensome way to live. And like you had mentioned earlier, it sounds like I’m giving up my life, but I have found so much joy and happiness and contentment in that very life that there is something freeing in knowing that in a moment’s notice, I can turn my attention to Jesus as king and say, “You are king and I am not. I give you my life, do with it as you see fit. Change me, form me, make me into the person you want me to be, Lord.”

And man, there is something so freeing in that because it’s not about me. It’s not about, Lord, what do you want me to do to change me? But it’s, Lord, you change me, you do it. I’m certain all he wants for me is to surrender. And so, when I can live a life of surrender of reorientation around him as king it’s been life changing. It has been the greatest sense of connectedness and intimacy with God that I’ve ever experienced.

It’s wonderful.

[00:43:21] Anthony: Yeah, that’s so good. I had a similar experience where my friend and brother said that exact same thing, that repentance is ongoing in life. It’s not a one and done scenario at all. And you mentioned Alan’s book, Metanoia, this whole changing of my mind, which changes my action.

And I find for me, Terry, that’s where the rubber meets the road when it comes to repentance. Does what I say have congruence with what I do? And generally, when there’s a disconnect there, that’s where repentance has to be once again offered up like, “Lord!”

It’s like somebody might ask me, are you faithful? And this is where Karl Barth helped me; it’s a spectrum. To the extent that I’m faithful, I’m faithful. Help me in my unbelief Lord, right? That is ongoing repentance.

Our final passage of the month is John 3:1-17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Trinity Sunday on May 26.

Terry, we’d be grateful if you read it for us, please.

[00:44:23] Terry: Yeah, absolutely.

There was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a Jewish leader. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one could do these miraculous signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered, “I assure you, unless someone is born anew, it’s not possible to see God’s kingdom.” 4 Nicodemus asked, “How is it possible for an adult to be born? It’s impossible to enter the mother’s womb for a second time and be born, isn’t it?” 5 Jesus answered, “I assure you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, it’s not possible to enter God’s kingdom. 6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Don’t be surprised that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ 8 God’s Spirit blows wherever it wishes. You hear its sound, but you don’t know where it comes from or where it is going. It’s the same with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said, “How are these things possible?” 10 “Jesus answered, “You are a teacher of Israel and you don’t know these things? 11 I assure you that we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but you don’t receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you about earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Human One. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so must the Human One be lifted up 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. 16 God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life. 17 God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

[00:46:18] Anthony: There’s a lot there and I’m not asking for a dissertation here, Terry, but the Trinity, in my mind, so often gets reduced to some abstract mathematical conundrum instead of a relationship. And so, on this Trinity Sunday, what would you say to the listening audience about the triune God?

[00:46:37] Terry: Yeah, this again goes into this crazy mystery of God in three persons. The way that I’ve been able to wrap my head — what little I can wrap my head around this wonderful, beautiful, mysterious thing — is that I really see it as a divine dance.

There’s this Greek term parakinesis [sic] [perichoresis] that speaks to the idea of a kinetic movement, right? And I’ve heard people refer to it as a divine dance where Father, Son, and Spirit dance in step with one another, that there’s a constant moving connection between the two.

And really the best way that I can wrap my head around this is that God in three persons speaks to us that we are to live life in community, that all of life is to be communal. This individualism which is tough in our current culture because we live in a highly individualistic society. But we weren’t created for individualism. We were created for a communal expression.

And just as Father and Son and Spirit surrender to each other, and they’re lockstep with one another as the best way to dance, to explain this kinesis, this kinetic movement is a dance that it is a free flowing, free formed version of movement. And it is the example that is on display for us beautifully for us to mimic. That as humans, as the ones created in the image of God, we are to mimic the way of God. And how are we, who are we in lockstep with in our life?

And so, the Trinity for me is a great, beautiful reminder of who am I choosing to dance with. Who’s on my dance card in my everyday life? Am I dancing with the right people? In the relationship with my wife, in the relationship with my daughter, what is that? What is the kinesis?

What is the kinetic? What does the movement, the relationship look like in that? Does it more represent the world, or would it more represent king and kingdom? The same with my neighbors and my coworkers and the people that I just spend time with, whether they are found in Jesus or not yet followers of Jesus. We choose to dance with the people around us that there’s this cosmic dance that is at hand.

And so, what does our dance card look like? Are we finding this beautiful rhythm that God has laid before us that we can be in sync with Father, Son, and Spirit? Or are we doing our own thing? Are we out of step? Are we choosing?

Are we going so freeform that it’s — I know, I love some jazz, but there are some like freeform jazz that’s just way out there. And is this pleasant to my ears? It doesn’t feel pleasant to my ears. It feels very weird. It’s all over the place. And sometimes we choose to live life where it feels so disruptive.

And that’s been something that’s been meaningful to me is looking at how Father, Son, and Spirit are interconnected with one another, one whole but relational.

[00:50:16] Anthony: Yes. This next question I’m going to ask you, the answers can spark fighting words. And the question is this, what does it mean to be born anew or born again or born from above for you, Terry? What does this mean?

[00:50:34] Terry: Yeah, for me in the most simplest terms, it means I have surrendered control of my life from myself or from the world, and I’ve given it to Jesus as king.

And I was, [in] 1993, sitting on a stoop at a boys’ home. I grew up in a boys’ home from the age of 12 to 18. And I had a house parent who was a giant of a human being. [He] was like six foot six, six foot seven, just a huge human being. And because he was a huge human being, I respected him because I was a big kid.

And he would do these weird things that would just like, I don’t understand this guy. This guy cries when he talks about God. That’s weird. No one that big should cry because they talk about God. It didn’t compute for me, Anthony. I didn’t get it. And he would speak so softly about Jesus, but at the same time he was a man’s man, like he was like, I like this guy.

I’m going, if I could be like him, I’d be cool with that. But man, I had so much anger, I had so much frustration, I had so much just from my childhood that was so like inside of me, it was just insanely toxic. And I remember one night we were sitting there, and Howard came up to me and said, “Are you done? Are you done being angry? Are you tired of it yet?”

And just in a weeping voice, exasperation, “Yes, I’m done. I am tired. I’m exhausted from being angry at everything and everyone.”

And he said, “You can give all of that to Jesus, but you have to surrender your life to him.”

And that’s when I was born anew. That was my moment of being born again when, in that moment, said, “I can’t do this on my own. I’m trying to figure out life and I’m just doing it miserably, but I can surrender and say, ‘Jesus, you can make me new. You can make me you can make me a new creation.’”

And in that moment, and I truly believe I became a new creation, that the old in me had passed on, that passed away and that a new, a Spirit had indwelt [sic] in me and that a new creation, a new being had taken place.

And those next two years were just a weird journey towards discipleship and really towards — when I say Jesus became my Savior when I was 15 but he became my king and Lord when I was 17. And this journey towards discipleship was lots of questions, but that’s what born again to me means this idea that I was made new in Jesus because I surrendered to him.

I allowed him to make me new and his Spirit indwells in me and has indwelt in me since then.

[00:53:36] Anthony: As you tell the story about this giant of a human being, it reminds me of what we said earlier about testifying, telling the story, bearing witness to the goodness of God.

And I have found it’s really hard to do what you’ve never seen done, and the fact that he was willing to express to you, this is what it looks like. It’s a reminder: we all need mentors and guides in our life, right? Coaches, people that come alongside of us and say, ‘You know what? The Christ life, it looks like this. And you don’t have to carry this around anymore. You were never meant to carry that around.”

So, brother, I’m thankful for whoever that guy is. Howard, go, man And keep doing what you’re doing, Terry. We so appreciate your active participation ministry. You’ve been a blessing to me and I’m sure to many others. So, keep doing what you’re doing.

Thank you for being a part of this podcast. I want to thank Reuel Enerio, our producer, who does such a bang up job. There’s no way we could get this out without him, and my wife, Elizabeth, who does the transcription. So, you can see every word that Terry said. It’s going to live on in infamy. And you talked about how the things we do can have an impact a hundred years from now, so there you go, Terry.

But it’s been awesome, man. Thank you. And as is tradition with this podcast, we love to close in prayer. So, if you’d pray for our audience, we’d appreciate it.

[00:55:01] Terry: Yeah, absolutely.

King Jesus, we pause to just orient our presence on you and your Spirit as you work in and through us. Lord, wherever people may be as they listen to this, Lord, I pray a sense of an indwelling, that they would be so in key and in tune to who you are, who they are in you, Lord. And so, Lord, fill them up.

Lord, I thank you for those mentors, those guides who really exist in my life that have allowed me, as I apprenticed to Jesus, as I surrender to his way and practice his way, that they have served as guides and mentors and coaches to help me do that better. That as I spend time with you, Jesus, you have transformed me to become more like you. And Lord, that’s my prayer for everyone who is listening to this, that as they spend time with you.

Lord, that they would sense over a long period of obedience, they would be transformed. That Spiritual formation would occur, and they would walk in the likeness of who you are, and they would manifest love in every place and space that they take.

Lord, we love you. We thank you. Spirit, we ask that you would move in our church, that you would move in our world, you would move in and through every leader, that we might proclaim your goodness. We love you. We offer our lives as worship, and we give this to you. Jesus’ holy and precious name. Amen. Amen.

The post Can I Get a Witness? w/ Terry Ishee first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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The Weight of Glory w/ Jon Ritner

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest, Jon Ritner. Jon is the author of the book, Positively Irritating, which is about embracing a post Christian world to form a more faithful and innovative church. He’s also a coach and consultant to Christian leaders. And I’ve personally gained tremendous insights from Jon as he coaches me in planting a new church in Durham, North Carolina.

Jon has pastored churches himself in Virginia, California, and of all places, Belgium. He’s been married to Kristyn for over 20 years, and they have two children, Addy and Jackson. And it’s our desire that this podcast would be positively irritating to you, and I’ll let Jon explain.

Jon, thanks for being with us. Welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, what took you so long? We’d love to know a bit about your personal story and how you’re participating with the Lord these days.

Jon: Yeah. Thanks so much, Anthony. It’s great to be here in this setting with you, and I really have enjoyed getting to know you and Dishon, and so much of your tribe there at GCI at the event last year. I’m sure the reach of this even extends beyond that.

Briefly my story… I met Jesus in a fraternity house at the College of William and Mary through some guys who were followers of Jesus and were living kind of a missionary life in that environment. And I eventually felt God calling me into full-time equipping ministry, went to seminary in Chicago, met my wife Kristyn there. And we took a call at the same church that I had been attending when I was a college student back in Williamsburg, Virginia. We served there for 10 years, watched it grow significantly.

And after about a decade, we felt a little bit of a sense of questioning of our effectiveness and our strategies and whether or not we were really making the quality of disciples that I felt like Jesus was longing for in the world. And as I began looking around the world, asking, how is God moving in new ways and what are some more effective ways that are resonating with this post-Christian future that I was sensing was coming, God called us to Brussels, Belgium.

So, we spent three years there on a missionary visa, planting micro churches, we called them, small, contextualized expressions of church that resonated with local communities. They were less about gathering people for worship and more about sending people out into mission, joining the life of Jesus in the places that they live, work, and play. And then from those missional experiences, creating smaller communities. And then trusting that the Holy Spirit would be leading people to become worshipers.

And that was an incredible time of growth for us and paradigm shift. And after three years there, we felt, man, the American church needs to experience this sort of innovative approach—and honestly, this ancient approach, more of a first century approach to doing church.

And so, we felt called to come back to the U.S. and help other churches adapt. And ended up of all places in Hollywood, California. And so, I worked for seven years leading a church of artists and storytellers and creatives who were resonating with the fact that traditional ways of making disciples were no longer working in their environment, that a discipleship strategy that relied on professionals, property, programs didn’t really resonate with the people that they were meeting on set and on studio lots. And yet they weren’t really sure how to make disciples themselves, or they didn’t know what it meant to be a disciple making person who didn’t rely on the institutional church.

And so, we spent seven years trying to equip and empower individuals to do that. And we started some missional community things that we called food truck churches rather than restaurant churches—small, nimble, scalable, adaptable teams that could go out into the community and offer up a gospel meal rather than simply having to invite people to a brick and mortar location.

And along that way, I ended up writing a book, that we entitled Positively Irritating, which was really about embracing the irritant of post-Christianity as a positive force for change in the local church. And so now after 20 years of pastoring in local communities, I do work with pastors and planters and even denominations to help them adapt to this new reality and to better understand what sort of disciple making pathways are needed for this new world that we live in, that is becoming increasingly post Christian.

So that’s a little bit of my story. And as always, in an urban environment, of course, it’s right now that we start this podcast that the garbage man decides to come empty the dumpsters outside my window. So, life has a way.

[00:05:34] Anthony: Life has a way. I’ve gotten to know you a bit over the past year or so and what stands out to me, Jon, in you the person, and the book that you wrote, is your love for Jesus and his body, the church. And in that book, Positively Irritating, you devoted a chapter encouraging readers to embrace and empower the different gifts the Lord gives to his body and to his people. And you highlighted the gift mix that I find fascinating in Ephesians 4 of apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher often people know the acronym of A.P.E.S.T.

So why should people be familiar with A.P.E.S.T.? And in your opinion, where is the church getting it right, where are we pointing people to this gift and fanning the flame? Or where is there room for insights and growth? And can you tell us all of this in seven minutes or so? Maybe that’s the impossible thing.

[00:06:34] Jon: Yeah, no, you’re right. This really has become a passion of mine, and I’m so thankful for authors like Alan Hirsch and others who have done such a great job trying to articulate a better kind of theology around Ephesians 4 and these A.P.E.S.T. gifts. And really, my motivation for diving into this so deeply is just, I think the church needs to look more like Jesus.

We are called to be a conspiracy of little Jesuses out there in the world. And there’s something about the modern discipleship that is not forming people into the image of Jesus in a way that really reflects who I believe Jesus is. And I think that Ephesians 4 gives us a lens or an understanding of why that is and how the church may have distorted that.

Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher. Those were all ancient professions in the first century. And when Paul is articulating them as gifts, I think part of what he’s getting at is this idea of functions or ministries. That these are five different ways that Jesus expressed the mission of God.

I won’t dive into all of them, but apostolic is more of a pioneering. The prophetic is more of a listening, interpreting, connecting with God. The evangelist was the storyteller, the recruiter. The shepherd we know as the heart and soul of a community who cares and nurtures. A teacher is an instructor, a legacy leaver.

All those functions are needed within a healthy church in order to fulfill the mission of Jesus—Jesus himself being an apostle, being a prophet, being an evangelist, shepherd, and a teacher. And as a local church tries to assess and analyze, are we living like Jesus, this becomes a tool in a way of understanding how Christlike we are.

And in my experience, the local churches tend to be really good at expressing the functions of shepherding and teaching. They’re good at care. Maybe they have community groups and fellowship halls that have meals and gatherings and support groups even. They do a good job caring for those who are widows or maybe divorced or going through addictions—a lot of shepherding care ministries. And then they’re fantastic at teaching Bible studies and Sunday school classes, and maybe a fantastic communicator on Sunday morning who opens the scripture and helps us understand God better.

Where we tend to struggle is with those “APE” gifts, the apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic gifts in that acronym of A.P.E.S.T. I joke in my book that the “APE” has become almost extinct in many American churches. They aren’t functions that we do well. And part of that is just because when we have lived the last 1800 years or so in more of a Christian culture, even a Christian worldview, those gifts were taken for granted.

We didn’t need to pioneer and take new ground. What we really needed to do was to do the shepherd teaching stuff, which was more about supporting and building up those who were already Christians. But now that culture is changing, there’s a need to really reclaim those three functions that we’ve missed out on and that we need to show the world what Jesus looks like as an apostle, a prophet, and an evangelist.

And so, in Ephesians 4, Paul takes those five functions, and he turns them into gifts and makes this incredible argument that in Jesus’ resurrection and ascension, he gifts to the church those five functions and gives everyone an individual gift.

And I’m a big basketball player, still in my late forties. And I’m still trying to relive my glory days. And the best analogy that I’ve come up with for kind of this idea of A.P.E.S.T. as it relates to gifts is thinking about a starting five basketball team. There are five primary functions that a basketball team needs to embody to be successful.

They need to handle the ball and distribute it. They need to shoot the ball. They need to have someone who’s able to cut to the basket and be a slasher. They need to rebound missed shots, and they need to defend the basket as well from the other team trying to do that. And so all five of those functions are needed for a healthy team.

But it’s rare that any one individual is great at all five of them. And so, what coaches do is they try to identify five individuals who are gifted in at least one, maybe two, of those functions. So, you get a point guard who’s good at dribbling and passing. You get a shooting guard who’s primarily responsible for making long distance shots; you get a forward man, a power forward who can rebound and defend inside. And then you put that team together and you say to everyone, hey, play to your strengths, but you also have to be growing in the other skills.

There will be a time when even the center is going to have to dribble the ball and take an outside shot. So, you can’t just throw up your hands and say, that’s not me. I don’t do that. And so, as a coach, your goal is to get everyone to learn from each other, grow from each other in these five areas of skill so that they are more skilled as a team.

And I think that’s what the argument Paul’s trying to make is that Jesus has given every individual a primary gift or skill that allows them to represent the nature of Jesus and to be part of the Jesus team, the church, and that we’re all learning and growing from each other. And as those five ministries work together, they will better represent the fullness of Jesus in the world.

[00:12:22] Anthony: I grew up on the Chicago Bulls, and I was just trying to imagine a team that was made up of all Dennis Rodmans. You could rebound, but nobody could shoot or dribble effectively. It’s so powerful when the entire body is working together.

And I felt a twinge of sadness when you talked about the apostle, prophet, evangelist being muted in the church, because what have we missed out on by that, right? Because they’re sitting there, or they’ve gone elsewhere because those gifts weren’t being exercised. So let me ask you this just as a follow up question. If I’m a pastor of a church and I’m thinking, yeah, I can see that with us. We’ve shepherded well, we’ve taught well, but we’ve really been missing out on the other parts of this gift mix, what would you say to them? How would you encourage them to reconsider the entire breadth of A.P.E.S.T.?

[00:13:14] Jon: If we really believe that Jesus gives these gifts to the local church in order to empower his ministry, then I believe the gifts are present in the lives of people in your local community.

The challenge is that the way the local church is structured, it often makes people who are gifted as apostles, prophets, and evangelists feel either diminished or feel a little bit constrained. And so, what tends to happen is they exist in the community, but they start their own ministries. They start parachurch ministries. (Young life is a great example of a highly evangelistic ministry to young people in the community.)

Or they feel a call to pioneer and go into areas in your neighborhood that others aren’t reaching. And so, they have this apostolic side, and they come to a pastor and say, I have an idea for a new ministry. But their new idea doesn’t fit with the existing structure. So, they just go do it on their own.

There are many prophets who are very wired towards issues of justice. They would sound just like the Old Testament prophets saying the heart of God is missing in this community; we’re not caring for certain people. And so, when they come to the church and say, we want to start a justice ministry, honestly, a lot of churches have struggled to incorporate a theology of social justice or theology of communal justice with their own individual evangelism relationships. And so, they don’t know what to do with them.

And so those people say forget it. I’ll just go do it on my own. And so, what I say to pastors is the first thing you need to do, if you’re missing the APEs, is you need to just be curious and do an assessment of your local community and say, where did they go and where are they working?

And rather than trying to colonize them or even recruit them back to your thing and say, hey, we miss you, we need you back in the church, come alongside them and say, hey, what you’re doing is a valid expression of the life of Jesus. How can we serve you? Do you need finances? Do you need prayer? Do you need volunteers? Do you maybe need care and teaching ministries to support your apostolic evangelistic efforts? But we want to start by serving you, believing that you have something that has value as well.

So those APEs are usually pretty skeptical about being recruited back into the church. They’re afraid that a pastor is going to domesticate their wildness, but if you embrace their wildness and offer to serve and support them, you’ll often find that they actually are in need of that level of champion in their ministry.

[00:15:54] Anthony: I think there are probably people listening going, oh, I want to know more; I need to think about this, need a process. So, I would highly recommend to any of our listeners to get the book (wherever you get your book content), Positively Irritating. It’ll be well worth your time to read it.

All right, so let’s do this. We’re here to talk about the lectionary passages. We’ve got four pericopes this month.

John 20:19-31, “Peace Be With You”

1 John 3:1-7, “The Weight of Glory”

John 10:11-18, “The Lord is my Shepherd”

John 15:1-8, “Sugar High”

Let’s transition to our first pericope of the month. It’s John 20:19-31. I’ll be reading from the Common English Bible. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday in Easter, which is April 7.

It was still the first day of the week. That evening, while the disciples were behind closed doors because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.” 22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven.” 24 Thomas, the one called Didymus, one of the Twelve, wasn’t with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples told him, “We’ve seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger in the wounds left by the nails, and put my hand into his side, I won’t believe.” 26 After eight days his disciples were again in a house and Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus entered and stood among them. He said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe!” 28 Thomas responded to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus replied, “Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who don’t see and yet believe.” 30 Then Jesus did many other miraculous signs in his disciples’ presence, signs that aren’t recorded in this scroll. 31 But these things are written so that you will believe that Jesus is the Christ, God’s Son, and that believing, you will have life in his name.

Jon, Jesus came to his frightened friends and said, “Peace be with you.” And then goes on to say, “As the Father sent me, I’m sending you.” And this seems to be significant in understanding who God is and what God does and what he would have us to do. What say you? What does this have to teach us and compel us to do?

[00:18:58] Jon: Yeah, I’ll be honest. This phrase, peace be with you, is a phrase that continues to grow and expand as I mature in my own theology, I think. I was born in ‘75 and grew up and in and around the church without it really being something that was a personal relationship with me.

And when I heard phrases like, peace be with you, offered as a benediction—I can remember even one of my parents who would finish their letters, peace and joy, the word “peace” for me was always a 1960s and 70s definition of peace, right? It was either global peace, world peace, or we don’t want wars. So, peace as an absence of conflict. But I was like, that’s not what my parents are writing in their letters.

What I thought they were writing was more of a hippie ‘”peace,” more of “cool out, man,” like a relaxed chill. As if Jesus shows up and he can sense that everyone’s super anxious and he is, cool out, boys; I’m with you.

And the more I grow, the more I understand the essence of this word “peace,” and its Old Testament roots in this Hebrew version of shalom, I realized that it’s not either of those things completely, right? Yes, God’s peace might offer calm from our anxiety and yes, God’s peace does ultimately maybe get expressed as an absence of conflict, but at its root, this word shalom is the defining characteristic of God’s kingdom.

It’s not just the absence of something; it marks the presence of God’s power, of God’s Spirit. It’s God’s rule and reign wrapped up in one word. So, shalom is justice and love and beauty and harmony and reconciliation. God’s shalom captures the redemption and renewal of all creation into the way that the world was meant to be.

So, I think what Jesus is trying to do when he shows up to these disciples, some of whom haven’t seen him yet, is he’s trying to mark the inauguration of this new kingdom they’ve been waiting for, that has been coming. But literally his resurrected body is the first physical object that is completed in this kingdom.

It’s been he’s the first person who’s resurrected. And so, what he’s saying is, I come with this new peace we’ve been waiting for. I come and I’m ushering in my kingdom in this shalom. And so, because of that, everything has changed.

I’m not alleviating all conflict. My gosh, these men will all die for their faith. More conflict is coming. And I’m not getting rid of all anxiety because there will be much anxiety in the years ahead as they try to follow Jesus into ministry. But what he’s saying is that the peace of my kingdom has become even more real now through my resurrection. And the story is taking on a new chapter, so to speak.

And I love the idea that when he says, peace be with you, I think also what he’s hinting at is peace is with you because I am peace. That peace is a person, and so his body—the fullness of who God is in the Incarnation and now in the resurrection—is the first expression of the fullness of God’s peace.

And what’s crazy to me—and I’ve always wrestled with this—is why does he still have holes in his hands? Why does he still have scars? Shouldn’t the peace of God, the restoration of all things have removed those scars, those wounds, the marks of the wounds, right?

But I am so encouraged as someone who has wounds in my life, who has emotional scars in my life that have continued to be part of who I am even as I follow Jesus, to recognize that God values those experiences and transforms them. And I remember hearing a sermon on this years ago, and it brought tears to my eyes. This moment with Thomas, Thomas says, the only thing that will prove God’s presence to me, the only apologetic I’m going to believe are the wounds. The only evidence that God is real will be if I see Jesus and I see these wounds.

And I have found in my life that as many times as I’ve tried to argue people into the kingdom with apologetics around the validity of Scripture or the historicity of our faith or arguments to the nature of God, what often really connects with people on a deeper level is when they see the healing that has come in my life that Jesus has brought in areas of my woundedness. And so, I’ve learned to steward my pain and suffering and weakness and to be honest with that and say, hey, you want to stick your hand in the hole? Stick your finger in this hole. You want to see my scar, so to speak? Because I’m not bleeding anymore and Jesus is not actively bleeding, but there’s still an indicator that pain and suffering took place. And yet he has transcended that and that’s part of that peace, too.

[00:24:07] Anthony: So, taking that a step further, and I agree with you, I heard somebody once say, Jon, that I trust men who keep their wounds where I can see them.

And I wonder, how can we embody that sort of transparency, like here I am scars and all to a world that needs to know that’s okay. Because it just seems to me, we’re often trying to hide the wounds and especially in a social media age where everything needs to look perfect when we know it’s not.

So, what would you say when you’re going out into your parish, your neighborhood, talking about how could you embody peace be with you?

[00:24:45] Jon: Yeah, the way you said that reminded me of that famous scene in Jaws where the two men are under deck and they’re basically having a competition of to show off all of their scars and wounds. Oh yeah look at this one, [he] shows the gash in his arm. Then the guy pulls up a shirt, oh, yeah look at this one. And there’s this bonding that is taking place. They go from competing with each other to actually appreciating, okay, you are like me. And we don’t need to compete anymore. Let’s just celebrate that. We both had these experiences and we both survived them.

And I think in our culture around us when people’s wounds are being exposed, when we see someone going through something that might initially bring judgment from us, maybe they’re going through a divorce, maybe they’ve had a catastrophic moral failure, maybe they are embarrassed from something has come out that is a wound, that is a trauma, the natural human fleshly tendency is to either distance ourself from them or to judge them or to say, thank God I’m not like them.

But I think what Jesus is inviting us to do is actually to draw near. And say, your wound has been exposed. Can I show you my wound and can I maybe point you to the one who has healed me of my wound? And so, it’s not that I am without scars or without wounds or without faults, but actually I am bearing them up in a way that might allow me to connect with you.

And that’s where the real hope for that person might come from. So, it’s ironic. You said about social media because it’s something that I’ve wrestled with a lot. And I in my on again, off again, use of social media, it’s very hard to figure out how to be transparent because it’s not a medium that seems to welcome or celebrate that.

And I have seen people try to post like, I couldn’t get out of bed today and I’m really depressed. And I often feel like I don’t know how to even respond because there’s no intimacy of community right now. I’m in my house here, you’re at your house, stuck in your bed. And it does feel artificial. I don’t want to say inappropriate, but artificial. It’s very different than saying to someone over coffee, hey, can I let you know something.

[00:27:28] Anthony: That’s absolutely it. Jesus did not say the words, peace be with you, on a phone call or a zoom meeting. He literally came through the walls and showed up and was present with proximity. I think you’ve really nailed it. It’s about proximity and relationship, eyeball to eyeball.

I’ll repeat something I’ve said in the past, I think God and his brilliance put tear ducts in her eyes because our tears are meant to be seen by others in trust and relationship, that people can say, yeah, I’m here; I’m with you, as Jesus did.

Thomas was gifted with this experiential encounter, a very personal one with the risen Lord and his doubt melted away into one of the greatest proclamations of faith in the entire New Testament: my Lord and my God!

What does this encounter have to say to us beyond what you’ve already said? Anything you want to add there?

[00:28:19] Jon: I think it’s a great pattern for us to understand how the kind of modern secular individual is drawn into faith in Jesus—maybe even “postmodern” is a better word. In modernism, there was such an emphasis on the apologetics of information. Paul Little. Josh McDowell. All of you probably have all the same books I have on how to argue, how to articulate your faith, how to answer every question that someone has so they have certainty.

I’ve got two teenagers in my house. That’s not their starting point anymore. They want to know, is this Jesus that you keep talking about, dad, is he real? And if he is real, how do I experience him? When you say that the way we experienced Jesus is through the Holy Spirit today, what is the Holy Spirit? How does he engage with us?

And so, this generation, this more postmodern secular culture, is longing for spiritual encounters, spiritual experiences. And so, Jesus is, like you said, drawing near, inviting them in a relationship, saying, reach out and touch.

He’s validating that. He doesn’t say to Thomas, you man of little faith, I can’t believe that you had to encounter me before you’d believe the testimony of your friends. They testified to you that I was alive, and you didn’t believe them. Gosh, be gone. He goes, no, I get it. Some people, that’s what you’re going to need. So, I’m here. So, touch it. What do you want to do? You want to touch it? You want to hug me? What are you going to need to have an encounter with the resurrected Jesus? And when he has it, it clicks.

We are now the incarnation of the resurrected Jesus as the local church, and it’s our responsibility to be praying for people to have encounters, to help facilitate those encounters through our own expressions and activities and to validate this need that people have to really encounter God alive and at work in the world around them.

[00:30:44] Anthony: It’s amazing to me, Jon, how frequently you see people of Scripture having doubts. And so often we want to push them aside, like you said, ye of little faith, but God doesn’t seem to be too worked up about that. He keeps showing up, keeps pursuing, and keeps drawing all people to himself. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the month. It’s 1 John 3:1-7. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Third Sunday in Easter, April 14. Jon, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:31:00] Jon: Absolutely.

See what kind of love the Father has given to us in that we should be called God’s children, and that is what we are! Because the world didn’t recognize him, it doesn’t recognize us. 2 Dear friends, now we are God’s children, and it hasn’t yet appeared what we will be. We know that when he appears we will be like him because we’ll see him as he is. 3 And all who have this hope in him purify themselves even as he is pure. 4 Every person who practices sin commits an act of rebellion, and sin is rebellion. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and there is no sin in him. 6 Every person who remains in relationship to him does not sin. Any person who sins has not seen him or known him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you. The person who practices righteousness is righteous, in the same way that Jesus is righteous.

[00:31:59] Anthony: Verse 2 heralds, the children of God haven’t appeared yet as they will be. And as I was thinking about this, it reminded me of C. S. Lewis’ great sermon, The Weight of Glory. And in that, in part, he wrote, “There is no ordinary people, or there are no ordinary people. You’ve never talked to a mere mortal.” He furthers his case by saying, quote, next to the blessed sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses.”

Really, can this be true, Jon?

[00:32:34] Jon: Yeah. I love that image of viewing every person you meet with this kind of holiness, the sanctification of almost like sunglasses that you could put on that would allow you to see them not just as who they are, but as who they are becoming and who, in Christ, they will ultimately be.

And there’s a relational optimism that comes with that. There’s an ability to believe the best about someone. That ultimately would make me feel incredibly loved if someone treated me that way, if someone constantly gave me the benefit of the doubt, if they believed that I was a work in progress and not yet to be judged, so to speak.

And you would hope that the church would be some of the best in the world at doing this. And yet I think it’s one of the areas we really struggle with. And part of it, to me, goes almost back to a theological starting point of whether we view those around us through the lens of Genesis 1 or Genesis 3.

It’s become very common in the evangelical world and from a reformed theology to start our anthropology from Genesis 3, and to believe that humans are inherently sinful and fallen and corrupt and everything they do is—even if it looks good, it comes from a bad motivation. We are sinners first and foremost in need of redemption. And yet that’s not the origin story of humans.

The origin story is Genesis 1. We are made in the image of God, that we have inestimable worth, that everything about us cries out something about the nature of God that can be discovered and understood. And then after that, there was a fall.

But I believe that there is still the potential to look at any human being around you and identify those traces of God’s goodness in them, whether it’s in their motivations or in their actions, or even in their longings, that they’re not able to live out with perfection. And so, what I hear in this text here is John inviting us to see the world, not as it is, but as it will one day be, and to treat every person, not as they are, but as Jesus would want them to be.

In Brussels, even I had a friend who I heard him using a phrase over and over again. He didn’t call people Christians and non-Christians. I finally said to him, you keep using this phrase. Why are you call people not yet followers of Jesus? Who are you talking about? You mean non-Christians?

And he said to me, yeah. He goes, I used to use that phrase non-Christians, but I realized it was a binary, inside outside language. And I prefer to believe that Jesus is calling everyone to him, and that they’re on a journey. And I want to have an optimism towards that person, that what I see now is who they are now. And it’s only because they’re not yet a follower of Jesus.

And so, I thought, man, what an incredibly optimistic way of referring to someone who is not living a life that honors God. He’s doing exactly what John says here, viewing them through the lens of who they will one day be. And what that does, I think, is gets to the C.S. Lewis quote. It confers back on them the value of being made in the image of God, of being a sacred and holy individual who reflects God’s presence in the world, even though that presence has a way of being corrupted and bent that is not perfect.

[00:36:12] Anthony: I heard it said that love is the ability to see another person, not as you want them to be, but as they are, and offer them genuine warmth that they belong to the family of Christ.

And it gets to the heart of a conversation I had with a friend over a meal a couple of days ago. And I was saying to him, I think a good starting point with our neighbor is mutuality. And in mutuality, we see them as being people of dignity, of worth, of value. We respect them. We honor them.

That’s good, but I think to take it to the next level, to really embody the heart of our Lord is kinship, is seeing that we actually belong to the other. Not separate, but we belong to the same family.

And as you said, all of us are made in the image of God, and they too are included in his love, whether they recognize it or not. And to relate with people that way. That’s my brother, my sister; they may not know it, but I know who they are. And it just transforms the way that you interact with people even if they’re not acting the way you want them to. I don’t always act the way I want to, so somebody is going to have to show me grace over and over in my life.

So, it just seems to me, we live in a very disconnected world, Jon, and we’ve got to do better. We’re recording the day after the Kansas City Chiefs held their celebration parade for winning the Super Bowl. And there was a shooting someone died. Children are injured gravely. We’re just so disconnected, and we don’t see the value that God places on every human being to our detriment, I think.

Well, moving on to our next passage, it is John 10:11- 18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fourth Sunday in Easter, which falls on April 21, and it reads,

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 When the hired hand sees the wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away. That’s because he isn’t the shepherd; the sheep aren’t really his. So the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them. 13 He’s only a hired hand and the sheep don’t matter to him. 14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own sheep and they know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. I give up my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that don’t belong to this sheep pen. I must lead them too. They will listen to my voice and there will be one flock, with one shepherd. 17 “This is why the Father loves me: I give up my life so that I can take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I give it up because I want to. I have the right to give it up, and I have the right to take it up again. I received this commandment from my Father.”

Jon, if you were preaching this text, what’s your sermon going to be?

[00:39:24] Jon: It’s one of the first Bible studies I ever led as a summer camp counselor, maybe eight, nine months after I had given my life to Jesus. And it was this. It was on, I am the good shepherd. We were teaching through the “I am” [statements].

And I was reflecting this week on whether I would have the courage to teach it today the way I did then, because what I did on that day was I took everyone outside and I scattered the high school kids around this field. And I gave them all blindfolds and from the point where they started in this scattered dispersed area, I told them to put on the blindfolds.

And then I stood at one spot in the field, and I read this text, and I told them to follow me as I read. And I wandered around the field reading through John 10, while these blindfolded people tried to follow me. And then eventually I invited everyone to sit down, take off their blindfolds and look around the field.

And some were amazed at how far away they were from me. Some were very close. And then we gathered around, and we just had a debrief conversation of what was it like to try to follow someone simply by their voice. And some of the kids said it was scary. I bumped into a tree, and I quit. I just sat down. I was like, I’m not doing this.

Others said, I found your voice pretty quickly. And the closer I got to you, the more confident I felt. And when I realized I was right near you because your voice was so clear, I knew I was safe. I remember others who said, along the way I bumped into somebody else. And we started holding hands and I had great comfort knowing that I wasn’t alone trying to follow this voice.

And I was like, y’all this is incredible. This was such a sermon that they were writing of what the Christian life is like and what it’s like to follow and the discouragement that can come from being all alone and wanting to quit versus the comfort that comes from community, and what it’s like to be close to the voice versus far from the voice.

And I think more modern communicators need that level of experiential learning. I know it’s hard to do on a Sunday, but I think there’s a lot of lessons in there that someone could gather from that experience.

The other thing that came to my mind is really contrasting this text with a lot of the prophetic critiques of the leaders of Israel in the Old Testament. Because this idea of being bad shepherds or false shepherds, even evil shepherds, is used a lot in the Old Testament, prophetic writing that the Jewish leaders did not really care for the people that they were like these hired hands that were in it for their own interest and versus the shepherding impulsive of Jesus as the good shepherd.

So, there’s bad shepherding and good shepherding and understanding those motivations. And then I might actually even then connect it over to Ephesians 4 with this shepherding function that we’re all called as a church to fulfill. So how do we identify the characteristics of a bad shepherd who’s in it for their own glory versus a good shepherd who’s willing to lay down their life. And then how do we embody that as a community as we try to shepherd those in the world around us?

[00:42:35] Anthony: It seems to me that verse 16, Jon. gives us a hopeful word to people sometimes deemed as outsiders. We love to do that, don’t we, as human beings? Who’s in? Who’s out? But we sometimes see them as outsiders to God’s care and promises.

So, I wanted to ask you, how would you exegete this scripture for 16? And it says, “I have other sheep that don’t belong to this sheep pen. I must lead them too. They will listen to my voice and there will be one flock with one shepherd.”

[00:43:09] Jon: It’s funny, that summer camp I had I did this lesson for seven weeks, right? You’d have different campers come through. And somewhere along there, a kid said to me, is Jesus talking about aliens? I said, wait, what?

He goes, he says that there are some who are of my flock who are not here yet. And one day they’ll [inaudible]. Are those aliens?

And I thought, what a valid question a kid would have. What is Jesus talking about?

[00:43:37] Anthony: So, what did you say, by the way?

[00:43:40] Jon: Yes, of course, there are aliens. And if there are aliens, Jesus is calling them too.

I think the ancient context to this, in the ancient Near East, was that he is trying to prepare his people to understand that there’s going to be a Jew and Gentile mixing. That Jewish community that has thought of themselves as insiders and God’s holy, protected people are soon going to be mixed into a community that involves those who were deemed as outsiders.

And those are Gentiles. And so that begins to happen, of course, in the book of Acts. But Jesus knows that is coming, so he’s trying to prepare them for that. I think today where we don’t think in terms of Jew and Gentile, the natural way to translate this would simply be to say, who around you, what communities around you, do you feel like don’t belong to you?

Because of their lifestyle, because of their socioeconomic reality, because of their race, class, gender, sexuality, who is it that you feel like doesn’t belong in the pen, so to speak, with you? And what would it be like if Jesus called them to join you or Jesus called you to join them to be in a pen with them?

How do you prepare your own heart for that? How do you recognize that you are not unique or special because he’s called you? There are others unlike you.

And I think that opens up us to be better prepared for multiethnic communities and communities that have come from different socioeconomic backgrounds and communities that are open to people with all sorts of different lifestyle choices who want to come investigate Jesus alongside them and recognizing that the sheep don’t get to say who’s in the flock, the shepherd does.

And so, the shepherd might invite some people in here that you’re uncomfortable with and that’s okay.

[00:45:37] Anthony: Yeah. And in reality, as the Savior of the world, he has. I think it was Bob Goff I heard say, God drew a circle around the world and said, you’re in. And now let’s go about proclaiming that and inviting people to live into that reality that he has died and been raised to life for them too.

Our final passage of the month is John 15:1-8. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fifth Sunday in Easter, which is April 28. Jon, would you do the honors, please?

[00:46:08] Jon:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vineyard keeper. 2 He removes any of my branches that don’t produce fruit, and he trims any branch that produces fruit so that it will produce even more fruit. 3 You are already trimmed because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. A branch can’t produce fruit by itself, but must remain in the vine. Likewise, you can’t produce fruit unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, then you will produce much fruit. Without me, you can’t do anything. 6 If you don’t remain in me, you will be like a branch that is thrown out and dries up. Those branches are gathered up, thrown into a fire, and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified when you produce much fruit and in this way prove that you are my disciples.

[00:47:05] Anthony: Whew, there’s a lot in that passage, but we’ll start here. Jesus is the true vine, and he is the nourishment we need—whether we know it or not—of real life, vitality, relational sweetness, and the kind of sustainable fruit we ultimately desire. So why, Jon, do we so often seek a sugar high from somewhere else?

And because we know what comes with a sugar high, comes a crash. So, talk to us about that.

[00:47:35] Jon: Yeah. What an incredible kind of agrarian reference that still holds true for us today as we think about vineyards and wine. Even out here in California and wine country, this passage comes to my mind every time I drive by a vineyard and just think about how Jesus was just wandering through a field like this with his disciples making this point.

But the essence of this passage to me is the connection between roots and fruits. And from walking around any sort of farm, that there are seasons in which all of the work is being done underground in the roots. And that the roots are deepening, they’re getting the moisture, the nutrients they need, and that eventually they’ll produce the stock, and eventually in the right season they’ll produce the fruit.

But that takes a long time. You cannot go out to a vineyard 365 days a year and grab a grape, so to speak. There are only certain times because of the length of it. And I think part of why we look for sugar highs in life is because sugar highs are instant. There’s an immediate gratification that comes that we can do something right now to experience some sort of artificial, superficial rush. In order to experience it the correct way took, takes a lot of work and work that needed to have started before now.

And so, if I haven’t planted any roots and if I haven’t cared for my roots, if I haven’t done the pruning of the vine, there may not be any fruit on the tree. And so, if there’s no fruit for me to experience in that moment, it’s going to lead me to go somewhere else to buy that. So, I think what I resonate with is just the temptation to immediate gratification, to always looking for cheap artificial solutions offerings for the things I really want, which I believe can only come from the Holy Spirit in us.

So, I remember a pastor once saying of this text: if you’re rootless, you’re fruitless; and if you’re fruitless, you’re useless. And that has stuck in my head for many years. Anyone who wants to be used by God needs to have the fruit of God’s, of the Holy Spirit’s, presence.

But the way that starts is with our own rootedness in him. And those roots are really where I think this begins for us. And ultimately, the quality of fruit that we give in the world needs to be better than any of those superficial offerings.

[00:50:03] Anthony: Yeah. I think it was Watchman Nee that said, Negligence and prayer withers the inner man.” The fruit just withers.

I’m looking at verse 5. Jesus said, without me, you can’t do anything. I think he’s being literal. You can’t do anything without me. And so, we must be drinking in that relationship first. What’s that old saying? You can’t give what you don’t have. And so, let’s be rooted in the one who is the true vine.

My brother, we’ve talked about folks being in and out, and I wanted to remind our listeners that the Greek word for hospitality literally means the love of strangers. And like it says in Hebrews 13:2, look, don’t neglect to show hospitality to strangers. So, as you drink in from the true vine, as we learn from him and his ways, and as we engage our neighbors, let’s show hospitality, love a stranger, because that’s what the Lord is doing by the Holy Spirit.

Jon, it’s been a joy having you on the podcast. I’m so glad you said yes. Thank you for your labor of love in the ministries that you’re participating in as a coach and counselor, and as a prophetic voice to the church.

We’re grateful for you. And it’s been a lot of fun. And as typical for our podcast, we like to close in prayer. And so, would you do the honor of praying over us, Jon?

[00:51:33] Jon: Absolutely.

Jesus, I thank you for this word picture and just reading it afresh today. I believe there are people listening to this who have this image on their walls or on stained glass in their sanctuaries or on prints on their nightstand, Lord. And yet it can be so easy to walk right by that every day and forget the essential spiritual truth of it, which is that we are called to cling to you, to abide in you, to be rooted in you, that all of our nutrients that we need in life solely come from you.

And I pray for everyone listening, Lord, that even this week in this season that we have, as we draw near to you and think about spiritual practices. And we just pray, Father, that you would help us to sink our roots into you, that your Holy spirit would be the life blood flowing through all of us, that, Father, the fruits that come out of our life would be out of the abundance of the work that you’re doing in our life.

And we just truly believe the truth of this text, Father, that is we can’t do this, but you can. And you are in us, and we are in you. And Lord, there’ll be days we don’t even want to live the Christian life, but you want to. And you are in us, and we are in you.

And Father, at the end of our lives, when we look back at any fruit we may have produced, we want to be able to say, we didn’t do any of this, but you did because you were in us, and we were in you. So, I pray this week, Father, that we might cling to you, cling to the vine, prune out anything that needs to be pruned, Lord. Cut those things that are not worthy of your kingdom, throw them in the fire, Lord, that we might continue to grow and celebrate those as cutbacks and not just setbacks in life, Lord. And we pray that ultimately through this, we might become a flourishing, fruit bearing plant that has great value to you and your kingdom. We pray this in Jesus’ strong name. Amen.

Anthony: Amen.

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The Hour Has Come w/ Dr. Jenny Richards

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and I’m just so delighted to welcome back our guest, Dr. Jenny Richards, our dear friend from Australia. Jenny, welcome back to the podcast. It’s been a couple years since we had our previous podcast conversation, and you’ve had a lot going on since then.

You have earned a doctorate! I wish we had some sort of celebration soundtrack to introduce you. We feel so good about this labor of love and the intense work that you have done to earn this great achievement. But why don’t you—I don’t want to steal your thunder. So why don’t you tell the listening audience what you’ve been up to?

Jenny: Thanks so much, Anthony. It really is a delight to be back with you again.

And as you’ve said, yes, I guess my main report is that I have just finished a doctorate in law. And I did have to go back to see where things were up to when I was last here, but I think I was about halfway through.

My doctorate did involve theology as well and also social work because it looked at ways in which to assist Christian women who are experiencing domestic and family violence or intimate partner violence as they deal with questions about engagement with the criminal justice system. And I particularly looked at ways in which to develop a response where faith issues and legal issues could be brought together in an integrated response rather than being seen as separate from each other or perhaps even alternatives to each other.

So that’s been the main thing I’ve been doing and along the way, out of that, I was very pleased to have the opportunity to contribute a chapter last year to an edited volume, which is: Thomas F. Torrance and Evangelical Theology: A Critical Analysis, which was edited by Myk Habets and R. Lucas Stamps and published by Lexham Academic Press. And I included a chapter in that volume on using the work of T. F. and J. B. Torrance to address domestic and family violence against Christians, as theirs was the work that I drew from for the theological issues in my thesis.

It’s an excellent volume, I think, which covers the intersection of pastoral work and theology. So, there are all kinds of chapters in there on various issues relevant to pastoring and discipleship and things like that. And I was so grateful to be a part of that project because theology isn’t something for the ivory tower; it exists to serve and further our knowledge and experience of the God who loves us.

And what I loved about contributing to that project was that it aims to provide input that’s immensely helpful to everyday issues and questions. And there’s nothing abstract about that. So, it’s been quite a ride since I was last here. And I’m very grateful to have arrived at the other side, and I’m very excited about what might be next.

[00:03:51] Anthony: I really appreciated what you said about theology not being in the ivory tower. Done right, it’s very practical and leads to a way of being, a way of living. And it’s concrete. It’s not ethereal. And your thesis, as you’ve already touched on, at least in part, tackled how domestic and family violence can be addressed by the theology of Tom and James Torrance.

So, what I want to invite you to do—and I hope that we can record sometime soon a full bonus episode where we talk about this in depth—but why don’t you give us a brief synopsis of how you see good theology—and subsequently, flowing out of that our actions—how that can confront this particular injustice in the world of domestic and family violence?

[00:04:50] Jenny: I would love to record another episode. And I think I would need to because I can give you a synopsis, but it’s not easy to make it a brief one. I’ll start by saying there are a range of ways in which good theology confronts and responds to violence of all kinds and particularly something like domestic and family violence that reinforces concepts of inequality.

So, the Torrance’s work is certainly not the only source, but I used that because that was what I knew, really. But the main thing that I used their work for was, at the theoretical and conceptual level, to enable that kind of integrated approach to be taken to this issue, that doesn’t separate out faith and law as we begin to address violence. T.F. Torrance’s work calls for Christian theology to be faithful to God’s self-revelation in the personal work of Jesus Christ and to take particular note of the way in which everything is held together and interrelated in Jesus. And what that means for our understanding of reality, as well as our understanding of aspects of Christian belief.

So that was the starting point. So, for example, in Western philosophies, which still govern the way many of our societies conceptualize things, there are a variety of dualisms operating. And dualisms presuppose, not connection or interrelatedness, but separation and distinction. So, dualism as a term has a variety of meanings.

And the Oxford English Dictionary defines it as the condition or state of being dual or consisting of two parts. So, a twofold division or a theory or system of thought which recognizes two independent principles. So, dualisms tend to view these two entities or principles as contrasting, somehow not only independent and existing entirely separately from each other, but with a difference that involves inconsistency between them.

And common examples would be your mind, body, Cartesian dualism or Plato’s dualism of the realm of physical matter and spirit or intellect. And Torrance uses a generalized concept of dualism, which is the division of reality into two incompatible or independent domains. And these kinds of understandings aren’t Christian.

For example, if the spiritual world was separate from the physical world, there’d be no Incarnation, right? Nonetheless, we’re so used to viewing things dualistically that we rarely question it. And these kinds of thinkings influence the church as well.

So anyway, my research identifies two of these divisions or dualisms that are particularly relevant for domestic and family violence. One of those is the sacred–secular divide, and the other is the public–private divide. Because of those things, we tend to often see the appropriate Christian response to domestic and family violence as being a spiritual response, rather than a legal one because a legal response can be viewed as a secular response. Do you see what I mean?

And we see domestic and family violence as a private family matter with the law, which is part of the public sphere, only getting involved as a last resort or in the most extreme circumstances. That’s how the first two dualisms affect responses to domestic and family violence at a conceptual level or theoretical level.

And then compounding that, dualistic understandings of faith beliefs can lead them to be disconnected from each other rather than applied together. And where that happens, we might see the classic example. We might see forgiveness being emphasized as the main thing that’s needed in a Christian response, rather than seeing justice as being part of a Christian response and seeing the involvement of the criminal justice system as being a perfectly appropriate thing to do, if that’s something that the woman wants to engage with.

Many people don’t want to engage the criminal justice system for all kinds of reasons, but the main message of my doctorate on that point is that engaging the criminal justice system is not an unchristian thing to do. A Christian doesn’t need to forgo justice as an expression of their faith. It’s quite the opposite.

So that brings me to the other way that I drew on the work of the Torrances, and the way that good theology can help which was in providing content for what a theological understanding of justice might look like in these circumstances. Particularly where various teachings and norms would be held together holistically rather than separating them out and viewing them dualistically.

So, an understanding of forgiveness can be brought to the table that does not exclude justice and an understanding of how our personhood and dignity and identity as children of God factor into that. I used J. B. Torrance’s work on covenant for that, and also for how to understand what covenant faithfulness in a marriage looks like.

In news that will hopefully surprise no one, there is no tolerance for spousal abuse in a Christian marriage. None whatsoever. There just isn’t. It’s the opposite of covenantal love. And where a person has wronged another, it’s actually their responsibility to see that justice is done as a part of unconditionally repenting of that conduct.

And that too is part of J. B. Torrance’s model of what covenantal relating involves more broadly. In many churches, not all, but in many, where we disconnect teachings about forgiveness from other teachings, it just puts so much pressure. on abused spouses, pressure to stay together for the sake of the kids or the sake of the marriage because we’ve disconnected the institution from the people in it, or pressure to pray for their spouse to change, pressure to forgive, pressure to change their own behavior to reduce the chances of violence.

All of that puts the emphasis on the victim of violence and the way that they should be responding. And all of those things profoundly misunderstand the heart of the Father, Son, and Spirit, and the nature of domestic and family violence, and where the responsibility for it really lies. And those misplaced, disconnected, and incomplete emphases also block capacity for freedom and healing and safety.

So good theology not only illuminates the profound damage that domestic and family violence does and how contrary it is to the gospel, but it enables the insidious nature of that damage to be addressed at its core by addressing the depersonalization that’s inherent in that violence. And the gospel profoundly dignifies human beings and reveals us as unconditionally loved beyond measure by the Father, Son, and Spirit.

And so, it speaks a powerful word of love, justice, and freedom for anyone who’s experiencing violence. And particularly it provides a powerful corrective where that occurs in a marriage.

[00:12:22] Anthony: I’m just in stunned silence because I just think this work is so important, Jenny. This is my opinion, just take it for what it’s worth, but I think family violence, domestic violence, spousal abuse is one of those hush items that has lingered in the church, and it needs to find the light of day.

And so, I’m just so appreciative of this work you are doing, and I know you plan to publish your thesis And I certainly hope you will because I think this work needs to find the light of day. And we need to not only talk about it but move toward a kingdom ethic of justice.

Well done, friend! We are cheering you on in prayer. And again, I look forward to diving deeper into this topic and the Lord’s will be done in your work. It’s fantastic.

[00:13:21] Jenny: I might just add this. There’s a lot of really powerful and fantastic work being done in relation to responding pastorally to domestic and family violence in churches.

That’s been going on for a really long time. And there are some incredibly powerful programs. In the Rave project over in North America, there’s all kinds of different resources and work being done. And you’re right. It needs to be brought to light and that’s increasingly happening.

And what I’m hoping my little slice of the pie to contribute to that, which I’m so grateful to have been able to do. I really appreciate your encouragement on that. My little slice in that sense has been to try to bring the criminal justice system and engagement with the criminal justice system into that conversation about pastoral responses, so that churches can work together really specifically and deliberately and intentionally with domestic and family violence services, on not just the practical safety issues but also the theological issues that are involved.

[00:14:34] Anthony: Holistic approach. And of course, it’s in the light that healing can actually take place and the wounds can be transformed.

All right let’s do this. We’re here to talk about the lectionary passages. These are the ones we’ll be discussing for this month.

John 2:13-22 “Zeal For Your House”

John 3:14-21 “Lifted Up”

John 12:20-33 “The Hour Has Come”

Philippians 2:5-11 “Humble Obedience”

John 20:1-18 “Resurrection Reality”

Our first pericope of the month is John 2:13-22. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday of Easter Prep/Lent, which falls on March 3.

The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, with the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 He told those who were selling the doves, “Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father’s house a marketplace!” 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.” 18 The Jews then said to him, “What sign can you show us for doing this?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking of the temple of his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Jenny, Jesus overturned the tables, and it got me thinking and wondering, metaphorically speaking, what tables do you think we modern people try to have a seat at that Jesus would actually overturn?

[00:16:56] Jenny: I think my response to this would be to say, oh dear, because my instinct, and the first thought that came into my head when you say that is, all of them, Anthony. All of them. And the first ones to me, the ones that are reflected in this passage, spiritual power, or just any power and mammon, the love of money. Because for profit, the money changers in the temple were holding onto the spiritual keys of forgiveness, right?

So, you’ve got both of those there, spiritual power and mammon. So, they’re controlling the access of the people to the sacrifices that they could offer to make themselves right with God. They’re interrupting that process and controlling it for profit.

And I think very often we still seek influence; we still seek power both within our churches, but also power for our churches in our culture. And there are a lot of movements trying to jostle for influence and power and maintain hierarchies and oppression of minorities. All of that stuff’s going on in our societies, right?

Those tables all need flipping, and yet we want power and fame and influence. And we try and sit at those tables instead. And sometimes I think as I reflect on that, I think we actually spiritualize our search for that. Sometimes to try to justify it, we spiritualize taking those seats at those tables.

We seek political influence as though Jesus needs our help and is not actually already Lord of our particular nation. We say that we want to earn more money than we really need, and we build wealth so that we can, I don’t know, fund missions or something.

And having money in and of itself is fine, right? And of course, donating to missions and helping to fund that kind of work, there’s no problem with any of that. I know quite a few Christian philanthropists, and all any of us need to do is be good stewards of whatever money is entrusted to us.

I also know a lot of people who, by default, even if we don’t want to sometimes, put our trust in the size of our bank accounts—even when the size of that bank account has been accumulated at the expense of others. We’ve got a housing shortage in Australia and yet—and it’s probably happening elsewhere in the world too, I think—and yet many people buy as many properties as they can as a source of passive income and try to retire early like they’ve arrived, they’ve won the race or something. And I’m pretty sure that most of the time, if we search our hearts, more is going on in all of that. The gap between the rich and the poor is widening all the time here, and no doubt in other countries as well. I read something the other day by Pastor Matt Tebb, which said that roughly 44 percent of the world’s wealth is held by 1 percent of the population.

And it suggested that this should shock and offend a Christian worldview, and I agree. And yet so often, the opposite happens. Power and wealth and status and being at the top of social hierarchies are all held up as something to emulate. And in some places, including here in Australia the word Christian is becoming synonymous with bigot and with someone who’s power hungry, who seeks to control, including political control, through religion.

And Christianity is meant to be the opposite. All of that reminds me of one of my favorite books by C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory. And he says, and I’m paraphrasing him, but he says, look, it’s natural for us to want fame, to be seen as worthy, to have people think we’re fabulous and to be seen as having value and so on. But that’s because what the heart of every person really needs, what we were created for, is to have that recognition and that level of acceptance from God, to have what Lewis refers to as fame from God and with God.

And the gospel message is we actually have that. We do. That is the result of the person and work of Jesus. That’s what the gospel is all about. We’re beloved of God the Father in Jesus by the Spirit. But it can be hard for us to see and truly engage with that love, I think, especially if we’re full of our own insecurities and self-doubts. So, it’s easier for us to seek after and engage with power and influence and accolades from people and from society.

It’s quite beautiful to me incidentally, particularly as we read through the implications of that passage, that in overturning the tables, Jesus wasn’t just making a point to the money changers (although I think that was the main point that was being made). He was also removing the capacity of the people to provide their own sacrifices. That was probably just a consequence of all of the animals and doves and whatever winding up being driven out of the temple. But I love the symbolism of that.

[00:22:35] Anthony: Jenny, you and I were chatting via email earlier today and about this particular passage and I made the comment, Lord, your kingdom come. We want you to flip these tables today.

And then I just stopped in my tracks when I realized: no, in actuality, he is already flipped the tables of greed, of bigotry, of racism, sexism, misogyny, all of it, because it has no future in the kingdom. It has been dealt with once and for all in the person and work of Jesus.

And the Christian response is to listen to our Lord and respond in kind to be a part of the kingdom ethic that’s breaking into our dark reality in the here and now, because that evil, that sin has no future. Lord, we invite you to—you’ve already flipped them, but if we’re still trying to sit at certain tables that you would have flipped, flip them! Because we don’t want any part of it, right? That’s the lesson.

[00:23:48] Jenny: That’s right. There’s nowhere to sit. Those tables are gone. There is nowhere to sit at those. The only table we can sit at is the table that’s prepared for us and has been prepared for us and it’s there. The family table, the kitchen table of Father, Son, and Spirit, that we’re drawn into as his children, that’s the table to sit at.

[00:24:09] Anthony: Yes. Hallelujah. And amen. As you look at this particular passage, Jenny, are there any other preaching teaching nuggets that you find that might be a blessing to our listening audience?

[00:24:21] Jenny: Probably just that last one that I made, the point about removing the capacity of people to provide their own sacrifices. Because to me here, Jesus is ushering in a completely different way for people to approach God, especially in relation to their wrongdoings and their failures and the things that they have come to the temple, so to speak, to feel that they need to make up for. So not only will Jesus not allow those issues to make them vulnerable to manipulation from others, but he himself becomes the point at which fellowship with God occurs and that right-standing is restored.

It’s not the money changers tables anymore, and it’s not the sacrificial altar that they would then go and take those animals to. He himself is our peace, we’re told. He himself is our salvation. Isaiah speaks of that. He himself is the covenant between God and humanity. And I think that starts to come out in this passage as well.

[00:25:24] Anthony: Thank you, Lord, that you have prepared a table. We long for the feast, the fullness of the kingdom of God, the celebration feast. But in the meantime, we are so grateful for the table of fellowship, the Eucharist table, the communion table, that we experience your peace when we come forward. So, thank you, Lord.

Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s John 3:14 – 21. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday of Easter Prep, or as we sometimes call it, Lent, on March 10. Jenny, would you read it for us, please?

[00:25:59] Jenny: I’d love to.

And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. 17 “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. 21 But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.”

[00:26:56] Anthony: The apostle John references Numbers 21 where—this is just a crazy story—Moses lifted up the bronze serpent and people experienced healing. What is the connection and significance to that, and the Son of Man being lifted up?

[00:27:13] Jenny: I was always taught about that, that it’s a parallel or a signifier of the saving nature of Jesus’ work on the cross because crucifixion involves being lifted up and seen. And the serpent was what was looked to for healing, right? The people just needed to look at the serpent, they didn’t have to do anything, they just needed to look at the serpent.

And in the same way, even though in Roman practices the intention of the victim being publicly lifted up in crucifixion is humiliation and mockery and is basically part of the torture, God the Father’s intention was to accomplish the redemption and healing of the whole human race.

[00:27:54] Anthony: That’s just a magnificent statement you made.

Just to be clear, the people of Israel, the Hebrew, Hebraic people didn’t have to do anything. They just had to see their salvation, their healing. And so do we. So much of religiosity is doing this or that to appease the god, but in Christian thought, in Christian theology, God has done it all. And look upon the Son of Man who was lifted up for the salvation of the world.

And speaking of salvation of the world people often think of John 3:16. It’s probably the most famous verse in the Bible, but it seems to me very few continue the thought that is found in verse 17. Why do you, Jenny, think it’s important to hold these verses together?

What context is given there?

[00:28:58] Jenny: To me it’s important because otherwise we only hear half of the message that’s contained in it. I’m not theologically trained particularly myself, but I’ve certainly heard scholars who speak about the fact that the numbering of the verses was added in later to make it easier to read, right?

It is there to help us in understanding it. And those sentences are meant to both be, I think, understood and held together.

There’re a few key elements here, I think. The first is something that Baxter Kruger emphasizes often. Verse 16 does not say for God so loved the Christians, which I think is what you were thinking in your comment before too.

It says for God so loved the world. And it’s so easy for us to view salvation as the thing that makes God the Father love us. No, in reality, he loved us from before the world began and he loves everyone. Because love is who God is in his innermost being. It’s not just Jesus who loves us, but God the Father and the Spirit too.

So, the next thing that’s there, which I think is really crucial, is something about how repentance operates. If we read the verses together, we see a picture of the gospel, which shows salvation as something that’s far richer and more beautiful and winsome than merely an opportunity that Jesus presents us with in order to appease God and change God from our judge to our father.

Salvation is not about avoiding condemnation. That’s not the gospel. T. F. and J. B. Torrance both warn really strongly against this. And Calvin did too. That’s where they’re drawing from on that. The gospel preaches evangelical repentance, not legal repentance. They’re two different types of ways of looking at repentance.

Evangelical repentance is based on the good news of what has already been accomplished. We are loved first. We are forgiven first. And because of that, we can then repent and believe. Whereas legal repentance would see salvation as a contract, as a transaction that has the effect of changing God’s mind about us and choosing to not condemn us because of Jesus’ forgiveness.

So legal repentance would have our repentance happening first and then the forgiveness and love coming afterwards. And it’s not that way. Sometimes we can think that, that Jesus is the nice and forgiving one who loves us and dies for us while we’re still sinners. But with God the Father, oh he’s hung up on the sin thing because he’s holy.

But he might change his mind and love us, maybe. But only because of Jesus, if we’re lucky and we pray the prayer right. No, a thousand times no. It’s actually literally the other way around. It’s because God the Father has loved and forgiven the world that anyone can repent and believe in the first place. T.F. Torrance endlessly would say there’s no other God behind the back of Jesus. So that tendency to think that Jesus is the one who loves us already and the Father is the one who will change his mind about us is completely incorrect. It’s a heresy. It’s a wrong way of thinking about the Trinity.

In his book, The Christian Doctrine of God, at pages 4-5, I’ve got a quote. If you don’t mind me reading it. He writes, “God is the kind of God who freely acts and passionately interacts with us in this world, for in his own eternal being he is the ever living, loving and acting God who will not be without us but who in his grace freely determines himself for us as our God and Saviour…. We can never go behind God’s saving and revealing acts in Jesus Christ and in the mission of his Spirit, for there is no other God. This is because God actively loves us, and actually loves us so much that he has given us his only Son to be the Saviour of the world…. He reveals himself to us as the Loving One, and as he whose Love belongs to his innermost Being as God.”

So, God the Father doesn’t have a different heart towards us than Jesus does. Another way he used to put this was to say, God is not one thing towards us in Jesus, and another in himself, in his own inner being, which I guess really is what that quote was about. The Father, Son, and Spirit are one. Their motivation in creating and sustaining and redeeming humanity is one of unconditional covenantal love.

We can’t change God’s mind about us; we’re not that powerful. He already loves us, and he always will. There’s no condemnation from God the Father towards humanity, whether they’re Christians or not. And to me, that’s why it’s so important that it was the Son who was sent into the world. Jesus’ Incarnation and his mediation as the Son of the Father is crucial here because Jesus shares his Sonship with us. The vicarious humanity of Jesus as the new Adam, the Son of Man means that what happened to him happened to the whole human race.

And that doesn’t mean that our own belief is unimportant. And the rest of the passage picks that up. We condemn ourselves if we choose not to believe this, but our belief is just what enables us to see this glorious truth of what is. It doesn’t create anything in and of itself. And I think it was Luther, it’s attributed to Luther anyway, who said something like faith is like an eye, it doesn’t create what it sees; it merely sees what’s there.

And yet sometimes I think if we don’t understand salvation this way, we get tempted to think as though our faith is what has created our salvation and our relationship with God, which means the emphasis is on us and that the pressure is on us to then sustain it. And it doesn’t work that way.

And in any event, we’re given the faithfulness of Christ—although that’s a whole different conversation.

[00:35:23] Anthony: Yeah, I grew up thinking that the intensity of my faith was more important than the object of my faith. Boy, that was wrongheaded thinking!

And what I hear you saying, Jenny, is we celebrate a God who makes the first move. And that’s what the Incarnation is. He moved in our direction before we made any attempt to move toward him. And he continues to do that because that’s what love does. It moves closer to that which is held in affection. Hallelujah. Praise God. That God so loved the world, not that he was so upset, so ticked off, so just ready to undo everything.

He so loved the world. And I think it’s worthy of saying that he didn’t just love the United States. He didn’t just love the people of Australia or people of the first world, as some might say. He loved the world. Even those that maybe we would cancel or despise, God loves them. And Jesus Christ is the fullness of their salvation.

[00:36:31] Jenny: Yeah. Praise God. Absolutely. I think your last sentence there too, Jesus Christ is the fullness of our salvation is so easy to lose track of. And I don’t know whether it’s because we sit in church sometimes—if we go to church—and we hear this so much that we lose sight of the depth of what’s actually being said there.

My other favorite—and I think it’s a favorite of yours too—my other favorite passage on what all of this actually means for how we preach the gospel, how that truly evangelical preaching is affected by the totality of what God has done in Christ. One of my favorite passages about that is from Torrance’s book, The Mediation of Christ page 94.

And if we’ve got time, I might read a quick section of that because in that book, he spends the early chapters of that book setting out the way in which the gospel is contained in the person of Christ as the mediator of the new covenant and how it centers Jesus. And in Jesus, it’s centering the work of Father, Son, and Spirit together, right?

Because every act of Jesus is doing what he sees the Father doing. And every act of Jesus—as Baxter Kruger quite often would say—is a trinitarian act. So, we’re not just talking about Jesus, but he spends so much of the book explaining that it’s actually not about us at all. And so then towards the end of the book, he then spends the last section looking at what that means for how we preach the gospel and where our own belief fits in.

And so, he asks this rhetorical question at the start, “How then should we preach the gospel in a truly evangelical way”, in light of the fact that all of this has been planned and established and accomplished in Jesus? And he then goes on to say, “Surely in such a way that full and central place is given to the vicarious humanity of Jesus as the all-sufficient human response to the saving love of God, which he has freely and unconditionally provided for us.”

So, it depends on Jesus’ response, not our response. And then he says, “We preach and teach the gospel then in such a way as this: …” And he sets out almost a little thing that could be said to someone who doesn’t believe. And what he wrote is, “God loves you so utterly and completely that he has given himself for you in Jesus Christ his beloved Son, and has thereby pledged his very Being as God for your salvation. In Jesus Christ God has actualized his unconditional love for you in your human nature in such a once for all way that he cannot go back upon it without undoing the Incarnation and the Cross and thereby denying himself. Jesus Christ died for you precisely because you are sinful and utterly unworthy of him, and has thereby already made you his own before and apart from you ever believing in him. He has bound you to himself by his love in a way that he will never let you go, for even if you refuse him and damn yourself in hell, his love will never cease. Therefore, repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.”

And I didn’t hear that growing up. I heard a lot about the love of God. I’m not wanting to discount that, but it’s so easy for us in our discipleship to think that God will love us more when we are a better Christian, and if we sin too much, we might scare him off and all of those kinds of things. And the beauty of this is that we’re not that powerful.

Of course, we need to believe that, but it doesn’t hinge on us and more to the point, Jesus is the one who responds as the faithful Son of the Father on our behalf.

[00:40:42] Anthony: Yes, friends, if it’s not good news, it’s not the gospel. That sounded like gospel to me. Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the month.

It’s John chapter 12:20 – 33. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday of Easter Prep/Lent, on March 17.

Now among those who went up to worship at the festival were some Greeks. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” 22 Philip went and told Andrew, then Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. 23 Jesus answered them, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly, I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain, but if it dies it bears much fruit. 25 Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there will my servant be also. Whoever serves me, the Father will honor. 27 “Now my soul is troubled. And what should I say: ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it is for this reason that I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd standing there heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not for mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die.

Jenny, if you were preaching this pericope, what would you herald?

[00:42:43] Jenny: In particular, I actually think this is one of the hardest questions that you’ve asked me to answer simply because there’s so much in this passage.

And I will say, am quite sure that I don’t see or understand all of it either. But to me, it does reveal several things about the gospel. And the first, unsurprisingly, being something that has come out in other passages. The gospel here is about the Father and the Son in the Spirit.

The reason I say that is there’s a whole lot of the use of the word glory here. First Jesus’ glory and then the Father’s, and that’s because they’re interrelated. Apparently, J. B. Torrance would always say to his students, the heart of the New Testament is the relationship between the Father and the Son in the Spirit.

And we see a lot of that reflected here in this passage. The hour that Jesus is talking about here is the hour that he is crucified. And he alludes to that again at the end when he’s speaking about being lifted up. And he says that this is the hour that won’t dishonor him, but it will glorify him.

And how on earth could that be possible? Is it because he’s been noble and obedient to the Father and sacrificing himself and going through that pain and suffering for us? He is doing those things, but I don’t think that’s what he’s alluding to here. He is obedient to the Father; he does give himself for us.

But there are a lot more layers inherent in the language here, I think. And that’s because to see something’s glory, as one of my pastors, David Kowalik, used to say, is to see it for what it truly is. So, in Jesus’ choice to do what the Father asked him, to be crucified as the Son of God and Son of Man, we see not only who he truly is, but who the Father truly is.

We see salvation revealed as an act of the Father, Son, and Spirit together to draw all of the human race to themselves as he’s lifted up and to repair the evil and brokenness of the world. We see Jesus mediating his knowledge of God as his Father to us and revealing him as far more than creator. We see Jesus being determined to go to the ends of the earth for us and that is a decision of Father, Son, and Spirit together.

So, the Father’s identity as Jesus’ Father is also now our Father. And that’s revealed not only in Jesus life, but also in his death and resurrection and ascension, because that’s all what’s about to unfold here in this hour that is going to glorify Jesus.

[00:45:34] Anthony: Jesus mentioned that his soul was troubled in verse 27.

Of course, that’s unique to him as he faced his brutal death that was coming. But I wonder if there’s some correlation for us, Jenny. And I don’t need to tell you this, the collective soul of humanity seems pretty troubled at the present moment. And since Jesus is the one who is the true human and shows us what true humanity looks like, what can we learn, if anything, and how can we be encouraged by this text?

[00:46:05] Jenny: I’d say two things here—three things I would say. I think you’re right. I would say two other things that come out of the text. And the first is just, it shows that it’s not unchristian for one’s soul to be troubled. Jesus’ soul was troubled, even though he actually knew what was really going on, and he still found it hard.

And if our souls are troubled when we feel that way, it probably just means we’re paying attention rather than trying to shut off what’s going on and the difficulties that are being experienced. Some people seem to think they should never feel negative emotion as Christians, or if they do, to quickly push them aside or something and focus on the good and things like that.

No, Jesus felt troubled, even though he knew that what he was about to do would accomplish the eternal purposes of God. If there was ever a time for boldness, this would have been it this was the turning point. It was all about to happen! And that’s why he said, I’m not saying save me, save me. I’m saying your will be done glorify your name.

That’s why he chose it. But the reality of the crucifixion is that it was brutal and torturous and abusive of Jesus, as well as having the spiritual weight of bearing the evil of the world and so on. So, if there was any other way, of course, Jesus wanted to take it. And not only was Jesus free to feel that emotion, he was also free to express that to the Father and be heard and understood. And so can we.

The other thing I think is apparent here is the way in which Jesus entrusted his troubled, yet resolute, heart to the Father. And in doing so, the Father was able to turn that around. So, there is space for all facets of what goes on in our soul, even at the times that are turning points, and we know we’re perhaps in the midst of doing something that we know we’re called to do. We can have compassion for ourselves and be assured of the compassion and provision and tenderness at the Father’s heart towards our own troubled souls. He doesn’t take any of that lightly and he’s already dealt with all of that in Christ.

I think elsewhere in the New Testament, and I’m terrible with remembering the exact verses so I can’t cite it for you, but it says we do not have a high priest who cannot empathize with our weaknesses and does not understand. And I think we see that reflected here in the pain that Jesus was experiencing.

[00:48:36] Anthony: I recently told a congregation that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah who was a suffering servant. But now having been saved through death, ascended to the right hand of the Father, being our high priest that, as you just mentioned, sympathizes, who understands. He was a suffering servant, but now he’s the servant to those who suffer.

He enters into the pain. It’s so powerful that he, that God doesn’t stand away at an antiseptic distance from our pain or sorrow or trouble, but he enters into the heart of that darkness and has overcome it. Hallelujah.

So, I appreciated what you said, because sometimes we do get this idea: he is our salvation; he’s done it all; everything’s got to be happy, clappy when it’s not. But to know that even as we go through the suffering, that there is one who is with us, who understands, who knows what it’s like to be troubled in his soul. Thanks be to God that he is with us. Hallelujah. Amen.

Our next passage for the month is Philippians 2:5 – 11. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Liturgy of the Passion, which is March 24. We’d be delighted if you’d read it for us, Jenny.

[00:50:04] Jenny:

Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, assuming human likeness. And being found in appearance as a human, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God exalted him even more highly and gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that at the name given to Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[00:50:49] Anthony: I love, love, love this Christological hymn, and every time I hear it, Jenny, I’m just staggered by the reality, the gospel that has been shoehorned into this short, breathtaking song. Let me start by asking you this. What do you think it means to have the same mind?

[00:51:12] Jenny: I feel as though I say this every time you ask me any question, but I do think there are some layers here. And to begin with we need to start with who Jesus was. So, there’s more to this passage than just saying, be humble. because if Jesus, who was God, could manage to be humble, you sure can.

I do think Paul is starting out by exhorting his readers to humility, absolutely. But then the passage morphs into a discussion of who Jesus really is, and just what was going on in his assumption of humility, by becoming human.

Sure, part of having the same mind as was in Jesus, is to choose to believe what he did—namely, that we should prefer others. And even if we do happen to have power, we should use it to benefit others and not lord it over them. There are some great practical hints for wise living there, surely.

However, Paul speaks often about us having the mind of Christ in other contexts. And when he does, he’s contrasting having the mind of Christ with our mind. There’s some of that here too, because our own instinct when it comes to power dynamics is certainly not to choose humility. We need the spirit for that, right? Otherwise, we will choose power every day and twice on Sundays.

But here I think Paul is saying more, particularly in light of the second half of the passage. We don’t just have the capacity to learn how to behave in a more Christlike way and be minded to do what we think Jesus would do.

Jesus shares his Sonship with us by the Spirit. That is how discipleship and sanctification work. And Jesus experiences the love and delight of the Father from the inside of the trinitarian life of God. He exists in covenant love with the Father in the Spirit. So that means that we’re not on the outside looking in and trying to emulate a lifestyle or get our heads around concepts of love.

We are able to experience that with him. He shares what he knows of the Father with us. He mediates his very life with the Father to us. And that is a different way I think of having the mind of Christ.

One of my favorite T.F. Torrance quotes (I think I’m up to my third now) is from the introduction to a book called Incarnation, the Person and Life of Christ, which is one of two volumes that was put together out of lectures that he’d given. I think on page X, like the Roman numeral X, in the introductory section, in any event, in the first sentence of the book, he says, “Our task in Christology is to yield the obedience of our mind to what is given: that is, God’s self-revelation in its objective reality – Jesus Christ.”

Part of having the same mind as Christ is to actively seek to believe the incredible love that has been extended to us and to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, because heck, none of us can just choose to believe that without the work of the Spirit.

And I think that’s why that particular passage really spoke to me, because it means letting go of all kinds of beliefs about ourselves and about God that are precious to us, like our pride, first and foremost, our belief that we can earn God’s love through our good works and that we’re better than other people or more deserving or whatever it might be.

I don’t think it’s any accident that Paul is emphasizing humility here. But we need to choose to believe that God is who God says he is, and that the truth of what he’s done with us and the amount that he loves us, and all of those things are actually true as well.

We need to choose to let him be to us who he says he is to us. And that’s hard and that requires us to see God the way that Jesus sees God. That’s why I think we are given the mind of Christ because we certainly can’t change that on our own.

[00:55:34] Anthony: Yes. Amen to that. I’m looking at verse 10 and 11, Jenny, and it proclaims that every knee will bend in honor of the Lord Jesus, every tongue will confess.

And in some theological schemas, this is treated as a very deterministic thing that God will coerce us or in the end, he’ll twist our arm to do this. But I just think when we come face to face with pure love, revealed in Jesus Christ, our Lord, what else is there to do?

He doesn’t have to coerce us in the face of that reality. We will fall to our knees and confess that Jesus is Lord because he is! What else is there?

But I’m curious for you, is there anything else in this passage that stands out for those who prepare sermons, who prepare to teach others? What say you?

[00:56:35] Jenny: I agree with you. To be honest, I’m not sure I have too much to add to that one. I agree with you.

And I think it’s that final line or those final two sentences—you referred to them as a hymn. It’s the culmination of who Jesus is and what was accomplished in the Incarnation and in the atonement. Those things were obscured when Jesus was on earth, right?

But when he became human, and the humility that was needed for that to occur, he wasn’t seen in all his glory then. He wasn’t seen for who he was as the Son of the Father there, but he is now able to be seen for who he is. So, when that is seen, every knee is going to bow.

And I agree with you. It’s not about coercion. It doesn’t need to be about coercion. The only need for coercion would be if people needed to be convinced to create their own connection to God. And we don’t have our own connection to God in that sense. We have been drawn into the life of God by Jesus. We can believe it, or we can choose not to believe it.

Although, as you say, why somebody wouldn’t, is an absolute mystery. Why some people won’t believe it, it’s an absolute mystery as to why they wouldn’t. It won’t be a secret. When the totality of who he is is revealed, whether people agree with that or not, whether they want to be loved by him or not, they won’t be able to deny that he’s Lord of the universe.

[00:58:24] Anthony: Speaking of the Lord of the universe, it’s time for Resurrection of the Lord Easter Sunday. We’re going to be reading from John 20:1 – 18. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Easter Sunday on March 31.

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3 Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. 4 The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the cloth that had been on Jesus’s head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed, 9 for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples returned to their homes. 11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb, 12 and she saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni!” (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not touch me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and she told them that he had said these things to her.

Jenny, why is the bodily resurrection of Jesus so vital to the veracity of the gospel?

[01:01:06] Jenny: For me, the centrality of the resurrection of Jesus is connected to his status as the second Adam or the true Adam. The point of the Incarnation of Jesus, the coming of God, the Son as a human being, was to bring and share the life of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit, with humanity, right? To adopt us as his children, to deal with everything that makes us feel separated in our minds from God and to bring us home.

And he’s mediating his relationship with the Father to us. So, we share in his Sonship. We’ve talked about those kinds of things. So human existence is transformed in the Incarnation. We’re dignified, we’re loved, and so on. So, his life affects us, and so does his death and resurrection, because it’s in his death and resurrection that all brokenness and sin and evil and all of those things are dealt with.

Everything that has diseased humanity, so to speak, is healed and restored. So, because of all of that, without the resurrection of Jesus’ body, God’s purposes for humanity would fall at that final hurdle because whatever happens to Jesus happens to us. So, without his resurrection, we wouldn’t be resurrected either.

The healing and the restoration wouldn’t be accomplished. Death would not actually be defeated. So perhaps it would be for Jesus, because of course he still would still be God the Son, even if he stopped being human. But for us, it would mean that we couldn’t truly share in his resurrection. We couldn’t truly be assured that we have been included within the life of the Godhead.

We’d be back to trying to find some other way to connect ourselves to God disconnected from relationship. That passage from T.F.’s book The Christian Doctrine of God that I quoted earlier, when it was speaking about the depths of the Father’s love and therefore his loving action towards us, he says this, “It is as this living, loving and acting God that he has come to us in Jesus Christ and unites us to himself by his one Spirit, interacting with us in creation and history, and in our human and physical existence in time and space, all in order to be our God, and to have US for his people.”

So that union of humanity with God is forged in Jesus’ humanity. And it’s lost if Jesus didn’t remain a man who was bodily resurrected. And everything that Jesus did, he did as a man as well as God. He responded to the love of the Father on behalf of humanity. He’s the faithful covenant partner that we could never be.

Our own response is to believe in that. God the Father has already accepted us, just as he has already accepted and loved Jesus, his beloved Son in whom he delights. We were accepted by God before we personally realized or believed that. And all of those things depend on Jesus’ vicarious humanity.

Alex Radcliffe, in her book, The Claim of Humanity and Cross, page 48 makes the comment, God’s unconditional covenantal claiming of humanity in Christ is an ontological event for the Torrances [paraphrased]. It affects our being. Salvation is worked out in the very depths of Jesus’ own vicarious humanity, and this transforms the very depths of our own being.

And in the bodily resurrection, not all of that occurs, but a significant amount of that occurs and would be lost if Jesus did not actually physically die and was not actually physically resurrected. So, it becomes crucial.

[01:05:05] Anthony: We see in this passage that Mary’s grief was transformed into gospel in her particularity. It is the story of humanity. Our grief has been transformed into good news.

This seems significant. Is there anything else you’d want to add to that?

[01:05:22] Jenny: I just think the word transformed that you use here in some ways says it all, and it was transformed into gospel, not by the gospel. Okay. Even though it was transformed by the gospel, but it became the thing that enabled her to be captivated (is the word that I’m thinking of) by seeing the fullness of what was actually happening.

What happened for her in the revelation of the gospel is that she saw that there was no need for her to grieve. Her grief got swallowed up and transformed. Jesus had not actually been taken. He was not actually lost to her. That’s what her grief had been about. And that by his ascending, she would also be transformed, because it’s Jesus’ ascension which enables Jesus’ Father to now be her Father and his God to now be our God and so on, as Jesus said it towards the end of that passage.

And all of that gets back to Jesus’ vicarious humanity, his life, his death, his resurrection, and his ascension as a human being are all part of redeeming the human race. And I would add to that, that this is accomplished in no small measure, I think, by the Spirit and by the fact that Jesus is in us by his Spirit, and we have that union with God.

And part of that is that he now experiences what we experience with us. And so just in the same way that he can sympathize with our weakness and so on, as we were saying before, what happens to us actually happens to Jesus. And pastorally, there’s something incredibly powerful there. And it’s not just Mary’s grief that was transformed into gospel here.

And I’m adding to the to the text a little; I’m taking that lesson and looking at what it means for us in our grief. Those griefs are also shared now. Pastorally, there’s something very significant that happens by the fact that the Spirit lives with us and Jesus is with us, not just walking next to us, but he’s actually in us, as well, by the Spirit.

And our griefs and our sorrows and the various things that happen to us, they happen to him. And the way in which the gospel can speak to those things and the way in which those experiences can be transformed is also immensely powerful here. Although that comes later in the narrative of the resurrection and the ascension and so on. That happens later, but it happens very powerfully.

And I think for us in our ongoing discipleship, sometimes feeling as though it’s just about what we believe individually and all of that kind of thing, we can lose that sometimes there’s a reason that Jesus said, in as much as you’ve done it to the least of these, you’ve done it to me.

And there’s a beautiful way, I think, that grief is transformed into gospel.

[01:08:39] Anthony: Yes, he is risen indeed!

Dr. Richards, I’m just delighted that you are with me here, that you are a doctor. And we’re really just thrilled and proud of the work that you’re doing. Keep it up, friend. And certainly, we will look to you again here sometime soon to flesh out the details of your doctoral work here soon.

II want to leave our listening audience with this quote from Julian of Norwich. She said, “The greatest honor we can give Almighty God is to live gladly because of the knowledge of his love.” Can I get an amen, church, to that?

I want to thank Reuel Enerio who is the podcast producer. We couldn’t do this without him. He’s the digital content coordinator for Grace Communion International. Well done, Reuel. And certainly, my best friend, Elizabeth Mullins, who is the transcriber. So, you can read every word that Jenny said here today when the podcast comes out in February. Thank you, Elizabeth, for your hard work.

And Jenny, once again, thank you. You are a blessing and we’re just so thankful that you shared the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with us here today. And we’d be delighted if you would pray over us and for us as we close this podcast.

[01:10:10] Jenny: Thanks, Anthony. It would be my pleasure.

Father, there’s so much in the lead up to Easter that we’re reflecting on, and there are so many layers to the gospel message. And your love for us has far too much depth for us to really be able to get our heads around. So, this Easter, please work in our hearts, reveal your love to us by your Spirit.

Help us to see it and believe it, bit by bit. And help us to share in the humility of Jesus and just to rest in your delight in us, who are your children in Jesus by your Spirit so that we can love others with the love that you share with us. And we just pray that the world may see that and know that, and in doing so, see you and see your love for them. Amen.

[01:10:56] Anthony: Amen.

The post The Hour Has Come w/ Dr. Jenny Richards first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Into the Wilderness w/ Brad Turnage

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Brad Turnage. Brad is the director of youth and family ministries at Westminster Presbyterian Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. And he has worked in youth ministry for nearly 20 years and has served alongside his wife, Jamie, since 2009.

And they both feel a deep calling to work with teenagers and their families and are committed to walking alongside both as they come to understand the deep love of God, which he has for them in Christ. And in his free time, Brad loves traveling (amen), photography, darts (hey, Ted Lasso), and disc golf.

My friend, thank you for being with us. Welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d love to know a bit about your story and how you are participating with the Lord these days.

Brad: Yeah, I have worked with teenagers pretty much just about every year of my adult life—different churches. And also spent a few years working with Young Life.

And I keep trying to do other things, but God just keeps bringing me back to working with teenagers. And I think really, it’s just such a hard kind of season of life. And especially for our kids that are growing up in the church and trying to find that space to honestly figure out, what is it that I believe? And is God real? And I just really come to life getting to walk alongside these students who are coming in and out of the great love of their Father.

But over the last few years, I’ve really more so been drawn to working with families. The best youth ministry happens at home. And so, I love going into family’s homes spending time, not just with students, but with their parents. Students and parents together, just helping our parents figure out how they can navigate this terribly difficult thing called adolescence. That is just as difficult for parents as it is for our young people.

And so, I’m blessed that I’ve been able to do that pretty much my whole life, and my wife is a great partner in that she makes me a better servant of the Lord as she serves alongside me. So just so thankful. And currently I’m doing that in Charlotte, North Carolina at Westminster Presbyterian Church, and I’ve been here for about a year and a half.

[00:03:27] Anthony: Yeah. I so appreciate what you said as someone who has served in youth ministry for a couple of decades myself. I don’t think I’ll ever leave that behind, right? Yeah, it’s like you said, you’re trying to do other things, but God keeps drawing you back to the way he’s made you.

And thank you for your love for Christ and the love for the family. And that’s encouraging because I think one of the biggest mistakes I’ve made in youth ministry was trying to segment the teens away from their families. Not intentionally, but some of the activities and the way we went about our ministry did that. So, it’s good to see that holistic approach.

As I mentioned at the top, Brad, this podcast is devoted to sharing commentary on the scriptures from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view. That says a lot, but what does that say from your perspective? What does it mean to read Scripture in a Christ-centered and Trinitarian way?

[00:04:25] Brad: I would say two things to that. First, I think it just starts with an understanding that the entire Bible is one story. It is the story of how God will bring about his kingdom through the life, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus. So, no matter what you’re reading, that is the backdrop. That is the story—even if it’s before Jesus shows up on the scene. And of course, John reminds us that he was there from the beginning, that Word of God from the beginning. And so, I think having a Christ-centered view of reading Scripture is everything you read is through that lens.

And for me, practically how that I try to prepare myself to do that is I just live in the Gospels. Somebody told me several years ago, every month reread a Gospel, and I don’t do it quite that often. But I’m constantly reading the Gospels as I’m reading the Old Testament and Paul’s letters just as a reminder that everything I’m reading is about this person, Jesus.

And the next thing I would say is I would quote Karl Barth and say that Scripture is a witness to the Word of God, that Word of God, Jesus, as John 1 says. And not only a scripture witness to the Word of God, but because of the Holy Spirit that is active today, even now as the Spirit moves through those words of Scripture, it becomes the word of God here and now.

And so, you’ve got the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit so active in Scripture, and when we come to it, we have this opportunity, not just to learn about Jesus, but to be in relationship, to be in his presence. One thing I tell our students over and over again is if you want God, if you want Christ and Jesus and all of this to become real in your life, you got to read Scripture.

You have got to start with reading Scripture. It really is a living word of God today. And so that’s what I would say in terms of what it means to have a Christ-centered and Trinitarian kind of view of Scripture.

[00:06:30] Anthony: I was struck, Brad, by the fact that you said this is what it looks like in part to be in relationship with God.

Can you tell us more about that, what you mean? How do we come to scriptures when they’re just words on a page and it can feel flat and unalive? How does that enter into relationship?

[00:07:11] Brad: I think it’s a mystery. I can’t explain it. But I believe it because of my own life and pretty much everybody that I’ve ever talked to that have said, the time in my life that God really became real, and I felt that presence and I felt like I was in relationship with him was after I really took serious reading Scripture.

And I think the words are flat. But the practice of reading Scripture, I think, any practice when you start doing something. And if you want to run a marathon and you begin practicing, it’s challenging, it’s hard, but any practice, the more you do it, the more you come to life and the more that what you’re doing becomes easier.

And I think that just committing to reading Scripture is the only way to discover that mystery of there’s something about those words that are different. There’s something about the Bible that’s different. And I do think that all of Scripture is so important, but again the only way for the Old Testament to come to life is by knowing the one that it’s pointing to is Jesus Christ.

And so again, I think that’s why it’s so important just to live in the Gospels as we’re reading everything else.

[00:08:06] Anthony: Well, said, sir. All right.

Let’s do this. Here are the lectionary passages we will be discussing today.

1 Corinthians 9:16-23, “For the Sake of the Gospel”

Mark 9:2-9, “Transfiguration Glory”

Mark 1:9-15, “Into the Wilderness”

Mark 8:31-38, “The Way of the Cross”

Our first pericope of the month is 1 Corinthians 9:16-23. I’m going to be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition, which is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday after Epiphany, which is February 4.

If I proclaim the gospel, this gives me no ground for boasting, for an obligation is laid on me, and woe to me if I do not proclaim the gospel! 17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a wage, but if not of my own will, I am entrusted with a commission. 18 What then is my wage? Just this: that in my proclamation I may make the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my rights in the gospel. 19 For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might gain all the more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to gain Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might gain those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not outside God’s law but am within Christ’s law) so that I might gain those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, so that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I might become a partner in it.

Brad, I’ve heard it said that there’s a fine line between preaching with conviction and preaching with arrogance. And I think the fine line is humility. Paul writes, there’s no ground for boasting in the proclamation of the gospel. Tell us about that. What does he mean?

[00:10:20] Brad: I think there’s no place for boasting because the gospel begins with our death, and dead people have nothing to boast about. What is a dead person going to boast about? That you’re more dead than the next guy? That you’re better at doing absolutely nothing of any real value? And I think more than anybody, Paul understood that, especially coming from his old life that was blatantly sinful, right?

We all have that same darkness, but for Paul, he couldn’t deny it. He had this history, and he knew that any hope he had was that his life was now given to him in Jesus. In Galatians 2:20 he says, I’ve been crucified along with Christ. The life I now live I’m only living through the faith of the Son of God who gave himself for me.

There’s no boasting because you didn’t do anything and all you can do is hope that if you’re dead enough, someone else will resurrect you. And I think that’s what Paul means. And ironically the one thing that Paul does allow himself to boast about is the fact that he’s weak enough not to get in the way of what Jesus is doing in his life, that Jesus is his life.

And if we can just get out of the way, then then we get to participate in that. And so, I think it is this starting point of, our life has no value aside from the one that has filled us through Jesus Christ with this new self. So, I think that’s why Paul says there’s no boasting.

There’s nothing to boast about. You didn’t do anything.

[00:12:02] Anthony: That’s such a good perspective. And that reminds me of Robert Capon, and I’m quoting loosely here, but he talked about Lazarus coming out of the grave. What else was he going to do? Life himself told him to come forth, and he came forth. And that’s, I think, a metaphor for all of us, is it not?

[00:12:20] Brad: I think so. But again, you’re going to hear me say the words upside down and backwards a lot today. It is that mystery that the only way to life is in our death. And ultimately, that is true. That day that we pass on in our death, we come into the fullness of life and the kingdom.

But it’s also true right now that when we learn to die to ourself and we learn to let go, we allow for Christ to come to life. And that letting go that dying to ourself is such an important part of the Christian life. And I think you were right on when you said that fine line between preaching with conviction and preaching with arrogance is humility.

I think the harder question is how do we find that humility? Especially, preaching is such a terribly challenging job to stay humble because you’re literally standing on a pedestal in front of everybody. And people tell you how great you are, and people tell you.

For me, the pathway to humility is just being really honest about my own darkness. Years ago, I was preparing a talk on the Good Samaritan, and I was talking to my pastor, and he said the most important part of the Good Samaritan is that it reminds us that we have the ability to see somebody as less than human.

And I thought, no way. But the more that I just get honest about my sin, the more I see there’s some real darkness and there’s some real brokenness that is in my heart through my old self. And my old self is still a ghost that’s trying to cause problems. And the more I’m honest about my sin with myself, the more I hear the voice of God say, and yet I do not condemn; you now go and do likewise.

I think that’s how you are able to preach with boldness without it turning into boasting is if you’re just really honest about the fact that you’ve got nothing to give outside of Christ in you because of that old self that still ghosts around. But we try to let it go so that the new self will do what it does, and that is point to Jesus.

[00:14:47] Anthony: Yeah, I’ve been rereading a book by Eugene Peterson called Working the Angles and he talked about how the community of faith is a community of sinners and one of those sinners happens to be called pastor or preacher. That puts it in perspective. I’m just the one that, for whatever reason, the Lord is speaking a word but it’s his word.

And I have been raised to new life in him because I was dead, and I had nothing to do with it. So yeah, well said.

Paul really makes the point, leans into the fact that he’s trying to be all things to all people. And so, when you exegete a passage like this, I think the question has to be asked, what does it look like to be a slave to all, Brad? Help us. What does that look like?

[00:15:42] Brad: Yeah, good luck with that one. Slave to all. Is there a harder calling? It’s just everything, giving away of everything to all. I’m not there yet, but I continue on, trying to take hold of the one who has taken hold of me in Jesus.

And I think it starts with having a paradigm shift that you have really died with Christ and the life you now live is in Christ. It’s not yours. You are a new creation bought and paid for by the blood of someone else. And not only have you been bought with a price, the one who bought you has given you away to the world for the sake of the world. That is our calling.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, Be the salt of the earth. Preserve that image of God in this world, be the light of the world. You are the light of the world to be this reflection of God in the world for the sake of the world. And I think one of the things about modern Christianity, at least here in the West, is that we don’t talk enough about what our role is in the world.

And that it’s to live for the sake of the world to be the image of God in the world. God in Christ made himself a servant, and he gave himself away to all and his life is now our life. And so, we have that same calling. The calling to give your life away. And the crazy thing is that the hardest thing is that it’s not just for the believers around us, but it’s for those who don’t believe, and it’s not just for those who love you, but it’s also for those who hate you. To make yourself a slave to all, as Paul says to, starts with this realization that our life isn’t ours to begin with.

And of course, it’s easier said than done. But coming to an understanding of that, I think has to be the start. And again, that’s upside down and backwards, but most anything in the gospel is going to feel that way.

And then if I were going to say, practically, how do we live that out, this idea of being a slave to all? I talk about two things. I’d say, first is you got to figure out the places that you’re already a slave. Because you can’t be a slave to all and a slave to something else that has you, that’s controlling you.

So be really honest. Where are the places in your life that you’re a slave? And start figuring out how to let some of those things go. You can’t hold onto two things at once. What are those things that demand our attention and demand our obedience? Ask God to help you see those things and then to have the faith through Christ to let those things go.

And then I’d also say that if you want to be a slave to all, you have to start small. You can’t be a slave at all before giving your life away to some. So, what does that mean with your family? What does that mean for the people around you? If you can’t give your life away to your wife and to your neighbors, you’re not going to do it “to the all” that Paul calls us to. So much of that is just putting other people’s interest above yours.

And it’s a great tool for ministry. And it’s something that in youth ministry, I’ve really seen God use. Coming along somebody and learning to love what they love is a great way of being in relationship, in sharing Christ with somebody. I had a student several years ago that I had been trying to connect with, and I just never could really get him to lean in. It just felt every time I tried to talk to him, I was hitting a wall. But I found out from his mother that he was a big fan of this TV show that was on Netflix. And one weekend, I just binge watched the entire show. And then I learned to love what he loved. That was the starting point of coming alongside of him for a couple of years and really getting to share Christ and Christ’s love and to be loved back by him and to see Christ in him.

I think that’s what it means. It’s just this perspective change that it’s not all about you. And it can’t be all about you because again, you’re dead and the one that is your life is the king of giving it all away, the king of being the slave for all. The more we understand that the more we can find little ways to do it.

[00:20:29] Anthony: Friends, we just had church. Brad was our teacher. Thank you. That was rich and challenging at the same time, especially in our culture where it is all about me. And it’s not. But that’s the way we try to live, and there’s a reason it doesn’t end well, right? It’s not the way it was meant to be. Thank you, Jesus, that you were the servant of all.

Let’s pivot to our next passage of the month. It’s Mark 9:2-9. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Transfiguration Sunday on February the 11th. Brad, would you read it for us, please?

[00:21:09] Brad:

Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, 3 and his clothes became dazzling bright, such as no one on earth could brighten them. 4 And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus. 5 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us set up three tents: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 6 He did not know what to say, for they were terrified. 7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, “This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!” 8 Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more, but only Jesus. 9 As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead.

[00:22:06] Anthony: So, Brad, the liturgical calendar gives us Transfiguration Sunday every year. Why do we keep telling this story? What’s the big deal here?

[00:22:16] Brad: It’s the biggest deal. If I could choose any moment in Jesus’ life to go back and be a part of and see it’s without question, the transfiguration. It’s the moment of all moments, I think, in the entire Bible, at least of the moments that have already happened. It seems like there are going to be some really big moments coming later, but in terms of what’s happened, it’s the moment.

Because if we think about Jesus’ life, including his miracles, if we could watch them, I think we’d find them to be more mundane than we expect. There was no smoke and lights. There wasn’t this hoopla and probably from our perspective, nothing that seemed super spiritual. He used mud to wipe away a man’s blindness. That’s incredible, but it’s not a show. And you can probably walk away from that, convincing yourself, was that man really blind after all?

But the transfiguration, there’s nothing mundane about it. It’s the moment in the gospel that the curtain hiding the mystery of Christ is pulled back. And for a moment, the disciples see what they had been trying to come to terms with, this reality that Jesus is really God’s Son. He is God in the flesh bathed in the light, that he is bathed in this glory. And none of the gospels really matter if Jesus isn’t God in the flesh.

If Jesus isn’t God in the flesh, then what’s the point? There were a lot of people that did really good things. There were a lot of people that did the things Jesus did but only one of them was God in the flesh. I think that’s why it is so important. It is just that moment that tells us Jesus really is who he says he is.

[00:24:09] Anthony: He tells us that. But his good buddies, like Peter, missed the point of what was happening. Or at least they were so overwhelmed by what they were experiencing, they didn’t know what to do with it.

I’m just curious and I know this is a leading question, but can we miss the point too? Because they wanted to stay up there on the mountain, and Jesus is like, no we’re going down the mountain and there’s work to be done. What can we take from this, Brad?

[00:24:39] Brad: Poor Peter. He misses the point. But Anthony, what are you supposed to say? I think the only thing you can ever really say that gets the job done is just thank you. And then you just shut up.

I think that’s the only thing Peter could have said in that moment. Thank you, God that we’re here. None of the disciples knew what to say. Peter just proved that fact by trying to say something.

But as for the mountaintop, yeah, I think we miss it all the time. And back to what we were talking about earlier. I think it’s because of this paradigm shift that life really is from our perspective, upside down and backwards. Of course, we want to stay on the mountaintop. Of course, the mountaintop is where we assume that we’re meant to live.

We have to recognize why we have these mountaintop experiences and what they’re for. I think God gives us these mountaintop experiences so that we might actually trust when he says the really hard things like, take up your cross and follow me, when he tells us to give our life away. And that the only way you’ll actually find your life is by losing your life. If all we have is that? Without the mountaintop, then how do you do it? How do you live the challenging life of giving yourself away to others, aside from these moments where you get to really experience God and his glory?

And those moments are beautiful. And I actually think it’s a lot like the miracles that Jesus performs. And we really want Jesus to be the miracle worker. Of course, 2,000 years ago when Jesus showed up, they wanted God to be the miracle worker who goes around taking care of all of our problems, healing the sick, feeding the poor, but that’s not who Jesus is.

He does these miracles so that we might believe him when he talks about the real mysterious way that he’s going to save us. Think about it. He feeds 5,000 people with this amazing miracle. But then immediately after that, he says, but I am the real bread that will give you life and whoever comes to me will never be hungry again.”

If Jesus would have just started with. I am the real bread of life. People would have been like, what? What he’s talking about? But once Jesus feeds 5,000 people with a few loaves, you go, Oh maybe I should pay attention to what he says. He gives these miracles.

It’s the same way with the raising of Lazarus, right? He raises Lazarus from the dead, but moments before that, he says the real miracle, which is I am the resurrection and anybody who believes in me will never die. How do you believe that? Jesus says, all right, I’ll give you this raising of Lazarus so that you might actually believe the real miracle—that is that nobody who believes in me will ever die.

I think that the mountaintop is like that. The Christian life is hard, and it’s mysterious, and it’s upside down and backwards. So, to give us the faith to do it, God gives us these moments. But we don’t live there as much as I’d like to. It’s just not where life is.

We read Scripture. We learn about this mystery of God who includes us in his life, death, and resurrection, who says, trust me and follow me, and you will find life when, like me, you give yours away. And that’s hard to believe and even harder to do.

And we’re given these mountaintops, whether that’s a camp or at a conference, whether it’s through the Spirit when you’re praising or singing. Maybe it’s through experiencing a real miracle, seeing someone healed after you pray. But we’re not meant to live there. We’re meant to follow Christ into the valley of the shadow of death, trusting that the only way we’ll ever experience real life is through losing ours.

[00:28:47] Anthony: It makes me wonder if scarcity is also behind this desire not to go down the mountain. We’ve experienced the brilliance of God here, but will we experience the brilliance of God in the mundane. I think the communion table teaches us, we do in just the common, ordinary, what might seem mundane, like bread, wine. It’s always present. And I think we do that with a worship gathering too. We think sometimes we’re coming into the presence of God. And really what we’re doing is asking the Spirit to grow our awareness of the presence of God already there and already everywhere we go. Even as we come down the mountain, God’s there. He’s at work. Grow our awareness, Lord. Right?

[00:29:36] Brad: Yeah. And I think communion is such a great picture of that because he takes the most mundane things that the disciples would have seen every day. There’s not a single day that they’re not breaking bread. So, Jesus didn’t use this illustration of this great banquet. He took the most mundane thing and said, every day when you’re breaking this, I’m a part of that. I’m a part of not just the high, but I’m a part of the very low. And it’s beautiful.

I think what happens when we come to the table enough to experience that bread and the body and the blood of Christ? What happens if we do it enough that every time we sit down at a table to enjoy a meal, we’re reminded that God is present even here in every moment of our life?

Yeah, it’s hard to believe because it feels mundane, and we just assume that God isn’t mundane. But he’s just everything! So of course, even in the mundane, he’s a part of that.

[00:30:38] Anthony: Amen. Hallelujah. Let’s move to our next pericope of the month. It’s Mark 1:9-15. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday of Easter Prep / Lenten Season, which is February 18.

In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove upon him. 11 And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.” 12 And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. 13 He was in the wilderness forty days, tested by Satan, and he was with the wild beasts, and the angels waited on him. 14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the good news of God 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent and believe in the good news.”

So, Brad, if you were preaching this text, what would you say? How would you herald the gospel?

[00:31:45] Brad: I think you have to at least, first, start with the Trinity, right? If I’m not mistaken, I think this is the only place in Scripture where we actually see the three persons of the Trinity interacting together in this way. The Spirit descends on the Son like a dove and the Father proclaims, You are my son.

And you have those three persons of the Trinity all interacting with one another. And whenever you can point to the Trinity, you have to do it. Because I think the Trinity shows us—I talk about this a lot with the students that I work with, good luck trying to understand the Trinity. And even more luck trying to talk about it because you can’t talk about the Trinity without stumbling into some heresy, here or there, just because it is so mysterious, and it’s so out of our kind of context of what we can understand.

But even though we can’t fully understand it, we can learn from it. And the most important thing I think we learned from the Trinity is that God is relational. And that’s crazy. That’s crazy that God is not only relational, but that he invites us into that relationship. And so, we see a Father who deeply loves his Son, and that love is flowing through the Holy spirit.

And I don’t understand it, but I know that God has said I’m included in it. And I’m so thankful that that same Spirit is a part of my life that helps me love the Father in Christ. You could build a sermon around that easily. I could talk for so long about that.

But I think I could also build a sermon—I might focus on the way that Jesus is sent into the wilderness before he begins his public ministry. It reminds us of those times in the Old Testament that the wilderness was used to prepare somebody for God’s work. Jacob goes into the wilderness and wrestles with God and then Israel is born.

Moses meets God in the wilderness before freeing the Israelites. And David wrote so many of his psalms fleeing from Saul in the wilderness. So, there’s something about the wilderness in Scripture that allows for God to show up in a meaningful way. I would probably focus in on that, on the wilderness.

[00:34:12] Anthony: As I’m thinking about your thoughts and trying to process what I’m hearing, I agree. If the Trinity is there, point out the Trinity! And this is where [Karl] Barth is so helpful to me. He gives us a language of talking about Trinitarian action. And he says we can’t comprehend it. All we can do is apprehend, get glimpses. And I appreciate the fact that you said we’re going to dabble in heresy here or there, not intentionally, but we will, because it’s a mystery! And Lord, fill us with wonder again. Sometimes we just make Christianity so flat.

So that leads us, as you said talking about the wilderness—and I do want to go there because … why? Okay, so Jesus hears these affirming words of the Father, these words that express the truth of his love. And the Spirit takes him to the wilderness right away? Come on, man, can’t we just ease into this before we go there.

So, tell us more about the wilderness because so much, as you’ve already pointed out, of Scripture we see happening in the wilderness. There’s a metaphor that maybe we don’t want to talk about and realize. What else would you say about it?

[00:35:30] Brad: Anthony, there’s no easing somebody into the wilderness, even if you would have said, all right, Jesus, you have a week, go to REI [Recreational Equipment, Inc – an American retail store], get yourself some gear. It’s still going to be tough. It’s the wilderness.

Plus, Jesus doesn’t get eased in anything. He shows up in a manger. That’s his moment of coming into this world. In some ways, Jesus going into the wilderness was this picture of him coming into our world, God in the flesh, this light in the darkness. But I do think it’s important to understand why Jesus, as he begins his public ministry, begins it with this time of struggle and this journey into the wilderness and this fasting.

And I don’t know to what extent Jesus needed to be prepared for his public ministry. And I’m certainly not going to try to figure that one out. But a journey that’s going to end in a cross might as well start in the wilderness, I think. Mark doesn’t give us much here, just that Jesus was tested by Satan.

In Matthew and Luke, we get a glimpse of just how Jesus was being tempted. I think it all has to do with how Jesus will use his power to fix the world. Robert Capon, who you mentioned earlier, talks about right-handed versus left-handed power. And right-handed power is the power to control, to coerce, the power to force. It’s what we think about as power in the world we live in.

But left-handed power is mysterious. It doesn’t look like power. It’s the power of forgiveness, power of patience, endurance, letting go. And ultimately, this is the power that we see used by God and Jesus Christ through his death and resurrection. I think the temptation of Jesus was the temptation to do a fix-up job on our broken world, to use his power to make a bad world good.

But it was never that way. It was always going to be his death and resurrection that would bring about his kingdom. The world doesn’t need to be made better. It needs to be resurrected. And it’s the same for us. It’s the mystery that is revealed to the disciples and hidden in the parables. This mystery of we find life and death, and we’re not going to find it anywhere else.

And so, I think that this temptation, even at the beginning of Jesus’s ministry as he goes into the wilderness, as he’s tempted, it feels upside down. It feels backwards. But again, God’s kingdom shows us that power doesn’t look like power, that the way that God is working in the world is not going to be the way that we expect.

And Jesus going into the wilderness is a little picture of that.

[00:38:22] Anthony: I have no doubt that there are those in our listening audience who feel like they’re in the wilderness right now. And we all are. Living in an evil age, it is wilderness. But for those that are exceptionally feeling that right now, what would you say to them? How would you encourage them?

[00:38:39] Brad: I actually think that those of us that feel like we’re living in the wilderness maybe have this blessing because it’s a reminder that we actually need. I worry about the people that don’t need God, or at least that’s the way they see their lives. There’s a gift of being in the wilderness and that is that if eventually we are reminded that the only hope we have is through someone else, then we can find that person.

I would say to those people, yeah, you’re in the wilderness, but you’re not alone. Christ is with you. And in fact, that is where James talks about when you’re—what does he say? That this testing brings about endurance. And I can’t remember exactly what he says in that first part of James, but the wilderness will change you.

And it will make you somebody that’s more like God, and more like Jesus Christ, the light of the world and who he’s called you to be, as well. And if you’re in the wilderness, maybe it’s because God is making you into somebody that can be the light of the world.

And that starts with trusting that he’s with you right there. But it’s hard. It is hard.

[00:40:04] Anthony: And maybe in another podcast, if we can get you back here and we talk about this passage of scripture, again. We’ll talk about the Spirit leading Jesus out. There are those Christians who think that God does things to them to teach them, to grow them up, to mature them in Christ, to reveal his presence. God’s a good God. He’s faithful, and he’s kind. Anyway, I’d love to have that conversation at some point. How deterministic is he?

[00:40:35] Brad: Yeah, I know. The one thing we do know is that God’s just really good at reconciling and resurrecting. So, I think we experienced God in those moments, and it feels [like] God made me go through this. But God’s just going to go ahead and resurrect anything that will die if we let go. And if we’re in that place and we really do let go and give ourselves away to Christ, that’s where we’ll find the resurrection. Because you can’t resurrect what isn’t dead! I think that’s why it feels like oh, God made me go through this so that I would experience this. But I don’t know I’m not going to try to figure out understanding all that.

[00:41:19] Anthony: But you can’t resurrect what isn’t dead. Let’s remember that.

All right. Our final pericope of the month is Mark 8:31- 38. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Easter Prep / Lent, which is February 25. Brad, do us the honors, please.

[00:41:38] Brad: Sure.

Then he began to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes and be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He said all this quite openly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But turning and looking at his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.” 34 He called the crowd with his disciples and said to them, “If any wish to come after me, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it. 36 For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life? 37 Indeed, what can they give in return for their life? 38 Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

[00:42:43] Anthony: Not today, Satan! Poor Peter. This is the second time in our conversation that we see him getting it wrong.

Let’s not waste it. What can we learn from this interaction with Jesus? And why did Jesus rebuke Peter so strongly? And what does that rebuke teach us about the ways of Christ?

[00:43:15] Brad: Before we talk about this rebuke of Peter—because it’s maybe the harshest thing Jesus ever says to Peter, and maybe he says to anybody. Get behind me, Satan.

But I want to give Peter credit. Literally just moments before this, Jesus gives Peter maybe the highest praise he’s given anyone in the Gospels. Just a few verses before Jesus says, get behind me, Satan is when Peter confesses Christ and Jesus says, yes, and this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father. And from now on, Peter, I’m going to call you my rock, and I will build my church on you and the gates of hell will not keep it out.

I want to bring that up because I just love how Jesus lets the good be the good and the bad be the bad, right? He holds onto both of these things. So, in one moment that Peter gets it, he finds this beautiful response from Jesus. And the fact that Peter’s about to blow it, does it change what Jesus just said? And I think that’s so important because we go through our life and we have these moments where God calls us into his work and says, I’m going to do something with you. And then we blow it. And we’ve got to be able to, in those moments, shake it off and go all right, that doesn’t change what else Jesus has said and what else Jesus has called me to.

But this get behind me Satan that he says to Peter, I think it’s more than just calling out Peter. I think we have to go back to the wilderness, right? I think Peter’s doing exactly what Satan was doing to Jesus in the wilderness.

He’s trying to get Jesus to use his power in a different way. Peter’s saying, Jesus, you have the power to save the world without all this death and dying nonsense. That’s Satan. So, when Jesus says, get behind me, Satan, I think he’s talking to Satan more than Peter because what Peter’s doing is that same thing that we see Satan in the wilderness doing and trying to control the way that Jesus is going to change the world.

And Jesus is not going to have any of that because the only way to fix the curse of sin—Paul says the wages of sin is death. What we earn from our sin is death. The only way we’re going to fix it is through going all the way into that death and then resurrecting it.

And for Peter, there’s no way to saving the world that doesn’t involve Jesus’ death and resurrection. And we see that moment Jesus rebukes him, but I think it’s more this rebuking of what Satan is always trying to do, which is to have us not trust the real way that God is going to change the world and change us.

[00:46:04] Anthony: Yeah. And Peter’s going to give you a big old hug in the fullness of the kingdom for coming to his aid and reminding us that the good is good and the bad is bad.

And we all participate in it. That’s a good way of looking at it. Get behind me, Satan. So I’m looking at the verses 35 – 38, and in my mind, it’s filled with juxtaposition. Maybe you see it too. So how would you Christologically preach this portion of the text? What say you?

[00:46:35] Brad: I think Christologically, you just point to Jesus, because this is exactly how Jesus lived, right? He says those who want to save their life will lose it. Jesus loses his.

So, everything that Jesus is saying here that feels like juxtaposition (sorry, had a hard time saying that one) is because the kingdom really is upside down and backwards. And so, you point to Jesus, you point to all the ways that it’s upside down and backwards. You point to the fact that Jesus shows up in a time of history that he has such a small—in terms of at least globally—impact, right?

How far did Jesus travel from his home? Probably not as far as we’ll travel to visit family for Christmas. It’s upside down and backwards to think that’s the moment that God chooses to send his Savior into the world. You would have thought it would have been in a time where that person would be on TV, where that person would be able to get the message out in this big way.

You would have expected that it wouldn’t have been a—Jesus was basically a homeless man for the time of his ministry. That is upside down and backwards. The fact that Jesus says, love your enemies, the fact that Jesus forgives his enemies, even on the cross is so not the way that we would assume that any God of any taste would behave, but that’s the way our God is.

And so, what does that look like? It looks like giving away our lives and trusting that though it seems upside down and backwards, that really is the place where we’ll find life. And again, I think it’s because if we’re not doing that, then we’re not giving God the room to work. We’re not giving the Holy Spirit the space to do something meaningful because we’re holding onto that steering wheel and not letting go and letting him lead.

[00:48:48] Anthony: Yeah, and I’m looking at verse 38, Brad, and if I’m being real with myself, there’ve been times where I’ve been ashamed of Jesus and his words, especially out of my ignorance. And it says that the Son of Man will be ashamed. What do I take away from that? Where’s the good news there?

[00:49:10] Brad: So, in 38, “those who are ashamed of me and of my words.” I think in those moments, Anthony, I think you’ve got to, you got to just be really honest that you still have this duality of the old and the new. And the old self, we’ve died with Christ and in one sense, the old self is dead, but it’s a ghost. It has no future, but it’s still ghosting around.

And then the new self is the self that is really alive. And we live with both of these realities. I think that yeah, Jesus is [saying], your old self is the one that’s ashamed. And that’s why we have to put that old self away once and for all, and to disconnect the real you from the false you. And every day my old self makes himself known and but as I’ve gotten older, the more that I’m able to trust that that part of me is the part of me that when I’m dead is going to stay dead.

It’s not the real me. It’s the ghost of my old self. It’s the ghost of Adam. My life really is hidden in my new self, which is in Christ. It’s easy to think that our lives are this zero sum, that as I grow in faith, I become more righteous and less sinful and maybe the good Christian life is getting to 75 percent righteous and 25 percent sinful.

But the more I’ve been honest with myself, the more I think I’ve come to understand Scripture. The truth is my old self is 100 percent dead in sin. There is nothing of real life in my old self. The darkness is really dark. The evil is really evil. And my new self is 100 percent in Christ, resurrected and righteous.

And these two things they have nothing to do with one another, except that they’re both inside this person whose name is Brad. And so, when my old self kind of leads me into falling into sin or saying that thing, I just put it in its place and I’ll say, that’s not me. That’s not the real me and I think that’s what we have to do. I think in our death, once and for all, God will get rid of that old self in our death and then we really will be in the fullness of God’s creation made manifest.

[00:51:57] Anthony: Hallelujah that the lying Anthony won’t inherit the kingdom of God. That the one that was ashamed of Jesus’ words won’t inherit the kingdom of God. And I so liked the metaphor you use of ghosting. Wasn’t it Martin Luther that said, the old man was buried in the water, but I found out that old wretch can swim, and he keeps showing up in my life, right?

[00:52:20] Brad: And if we have time, I would love to tell you this story. One time I was teaching Colossians to a group of high school students. Colossians 3 has this language about the old self where it says, on account of these things, God’s wrath will be pulled poured out.

And I asked my students, I said, is there anybody that you would love to see God’s wrath poured out on? And they were like, no, how can you say that? And I said, there’s somebody in this room I would love for God’s wrath to be poured out on. And they were like, Brad, how can you say that? And I was like, yeah, and it’s me. At least it’s the part of me that is still struggling with sin.

It’s that old self I want God’s wrath to be poured out on my old self because if it’s not, and my old self gets into the kingdom once and for all, he’s going to ruin it for everybody else. As I live trying to follow Christ and that old self still gets in the way and still causes me to feel ashamed and question and get lazy and gets in the way of what God wants to do, yeah, bring your wrath on that part of me, God and kill it and let it stay dead forever. I’m okay with that.

[00:53:50] Anthony: I am too, brother. I have always enjoyed our friendship and your exegesis of Scripture. And this has just been a fun conversation, brother, around Scripture, something we both love. So, thank you for doing this.

And I also want to thank the team of people that make this podcast possible. We couldn’t do it without them. Reuel Enerio and David McKinnon and Elizabeth Mullins. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your labor of love in service to Christ with Gospel Reverb.

And Brad, it’s our tradition to end with prayer. We’d love to ask you to do it, but thanks again for being a part of this. I really enjoyed it.

[00:54:30] Brad: Sure. And thank you for letting me just come here and talk about scripture and Jesus. I love being with you, Anthony, and I really appreciate what you’re doing here. So, let’s pray.

Father God, thank you that you’re the God that resurrects the dead, that you’re the God that brings new life, and that because of your life, death, and resurrection we can experience reality. We can experience your kingdom even here and now, Lord.

So, help us do just that, Lord. Help us learn how to die to ourselves. Help us learn how to let go of those things that we are giving our lives over to, Lord. And let go so that in Christ we might live for the sake of the world. And that the world might see you through your people, Lord.

So, use us to be your light in the world. Lord, use the people that are listening to this to be your light in the world, that their communities, that their workplaces, wherever they are, Lord, people might know you and experience your great love through them. We pray all this in your holy name. Amen.

The post Into the Wilderness w/ Brad Turnage first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Grace Areas w/ Dan Rogers

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Dan Rogers. Dan is the pastor of Grace Communion Las Vegas and is a professor at Grace Communion Seminary. And until his retirement, he served as the U.S. Superintendent of Ministers for Grace Communion International. And Dan earned a Ph.D. from Union University.

Dan, welcome back to the podcast. And as you are a seminary professor of homiletics, which is the art of preaching, my question for you is this, as we get started, what advice would you give to preachers who desire to take their proclamation of the gospel to a new level?

[00:01:29] Dan: Thank you, first of all, Anthony, for having me on the podcast today, and thank you for that question. Because the first thing I would recommend is to take the homiletics and preaching class at Grace Communion Seminary. That’s a shameless plug, but very important, and I’m very serious in recommending that.

But in addition to that, I would recommend several things. Most preachers know a lot of research and study is necessary to produce a good sermon. However, prayer should never be overlooked nor relegated to a minor role. I think we probably all pray for inspiration upon our preaching, but we should not forget to pray for proper understanding of the pericope we’re going to preach.

We should pray that what we will say will be accurate and truthful, faithful to the meaning of God’s word. We should also pray for the hearing of the word, that people would hear in the message what God wants them to hear, as God wants them to hear it. We should pray as well that God will empower and motivate a response to the preaching, so that hearers can and will apply what they hear into their lives.

And also, of course, pray that God may be glorified by what is preached. But let me emphasize, I think, what is a much-needed point here. I urge all of us as preachers to preach with intensity and passion. And often when I listen to sermons, including my own, I feel that we have not preached with a passion that is appropriate.

And when I say that, preach with a passion of the text, not your own worked up emotion. Bring the written word of life with the passion, emotion, and feelings of the inspired human author. If you’re preaching from the apostle Paul, he’s encouraging, he’s sad, he’s happy, he’s exhorting, he uses diatribe, rhetoric, sarcasm, anger, and that needs to come through in the preaching of the text from the apostle Paul, as well as other writers of the New Testament.

So, I would just say, participate with the Holy Spirit in passionately calling for a response to God’s word and transformation in the lives of the hearers.

[00:03:58] Anthony: What I hear you saying is there should be integrity. That what we say matches the written word that’s been shared to us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I’m reminded of what Charles Spurgeon said, “It’s not a sermon till we get to Jesus.” It may be a great talk, may be professional, but Jesus is the point. of the sermon.

So, let’s move on to the lectionary passages. That’s why we’ve gathered here today to talk about the four texts in front of us for the month of January.

Mark 1:4-11, “We’re Not Worthy”

John 1:43-51, “Come and See”

Mark 1:14-20, “Follow Me”

1 Corinthians 8:1-13, “Grace Areas”

Let’s pivot to the first pericope of the month. It’s Mark 1:4-11. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition, which is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Baptism of the Lord on January 7.

So, John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 He proclaimed, “The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the strap of his sandals. 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with] the Holy Spirit.” 9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove upon him. 11 And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.”

Dan, why was Jesus baptized? And what are the theological implications of his baptism?

[00:06:08] Dan: Anthony, I’m glad this program is several hours long, so I can answer your questions fully. But seriously, I’ll try to give brief answers, but please realize these answers in no way will be exhaustive. Jesus’ baptism is often viewed as Jesus acting in solidarity with the people of Judea, as an example for his followers or as an anointing to his offices as prophet, priest, and king at the beginning of his ministry.

But the theological implications of his baptism are that it was a vicarious baptism on our behalf, done in our place and in which we vicariously participate. It was an act of substitution and exchange.

Jesus shared in our fallen humanity and was baptized into repentance, but it was not his own repentance of his own sins, but his repentance on our behalf. We could never repent totally and sufficiently, so he repented on our behalf. Jesus took our fallen nature, our sins upon himself, and gave us his righteousness in a great exchange.

He received the Holy Spirit and his humanity on our behalf, and heaven opened to us, and Jesus stood before the Father for us. He took what was ours and made it his, and he took what was his and made it ours. He united himself to us in an unbreakable bond and union. And as did Jesus in union with him, we now stand before the Father as his beloved child.

[00:07:54] Anthony: There’s the gospel. What do you make of God the Father’s, or this voice from heaven acknowledgment, affirmation, and blessing of the Son?

[00:08:04] Dan: In the Old Testament, Adam is called the Son of God. The nation of Israel is called the Son of God. David is God’s kingly son, and Isaiah refers to the suffering servant as God’s chosen and whom he delights and upon whom he has put his Spirit.

Now, Mark’s quoting the words of the Father at the baptism of Jesus and the beginning of Jesus ministry, echo these Old Testament identifications with the idea that they’re all fulfilled in Jesus, God’s true, unique son. The statement also identifies Jesus as God.

In Hebraic, though, the expression son of does not always mean a male child of the father. Its connotation is one having the qualities or attributes of. Now, when Jesus called James and John, for example, the sons of thunder, he meant that they were loud and outspoken. So being God’s Son meant Jesus had the qualities and attributes of God. So, in our pericope, we have God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit, all actively involved in the baptism of Jesus.

You can say, it was a Trinitarian thing.

[00:09:28] Anthony: It was a Trinitarian thing. And I want to remind our listeners that it’s Christ’s love that leads us to repentance and just keep that in mind as you preach. God doesn’t seem to be too fond of guilt trips. It’s his love that draws us. to him. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Let’s move on to our next passage for the month. It’s John 14:3-51. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday after Epiphany, which falls on January 14. Dan, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:10:01] Dan: All right. I’d be happy to.

The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him about whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote, Jesus son of Joseph from Nazareth.” 46 Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” 47 When Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him, he said of him, “Here is truly an Israelite in whom there is no deceit!” 48 Nathanael asked him, “Where did you get to know me?” Jesus answered, “I saw you under the fig tree before Philip called you.” 49 Nathanael replied, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” 50 Jesus answered, “Do you believe because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And he said to him, “Very truly, I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

[00:11:23] Anthony: There’s quite a lot in this text, Dan. So, let me ask you this, if you were preaching this sermon, what would be the focus of your sermon?

[00:11:31] Dan: I think a good title for a sermon on this text might be, Who is Jesus and Have You Seen Him? This is a pericope for the season of Epiphany, and Epiphany means revelation.

In other words, seeing something you haven’t seen before. The first chapter of the fourth Gospel begins with revelation and then a series of accounts witnessing to who Jesus is. Now the character of Nathanael is told by his friend Philip to come and see Jesus, who he believes is the Messiah. Now based on some facts and some prejudice, Nathanael doubts who Jesus is.

But upon seeing Jesus and hearing from Jesus, Nathaniel accepts that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. So, a point to bring out is that a conversation with a friend, even a doubting one, and an invitation to come and see Jesus and hear his message can lead to a doubter becoming a believer. Lesson: go and tell your friends about Jesus.

[00:12:43] Anthony: So, that really does touch on the next question, and you’re already digging into this. So, with the fact of “come and see,” it’s a repeated phrase, not just in this pericope [but] other passages in scripture. So, what more would you want to say about it? And is there any sort of relationship, a symmetry to the notion of go and tell?

[00:13:04] Dan: Come and see is such a seemingly innocuous but important phrase. Come is an invitation; it’s a welcome. And when you think about it, most Christian experience begins with an invitation from a previous believer. To someone who is seeking to come and see, to come and see means to experience this for yourself.

It’s when you experience Christ for yourself that you become a believer, but that usually follows an invitation from a believer who has gone to you and given you a message and an invitation to come and see. We see examples in the New Testament, such as the women at Jesus tomb, the Samaritan woman at the well, and in our text of Mark here, Philip going to Nathaniel.

The point? What does it mean? How does it relate? Tell people to come and see. Go and tell folks to come and see.

[00:14:08] Anthony: I’m going to invite our listeners to come and see our next pericope of the month. It’s Mark 1:14-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday after Epiphany, which falls on January 21.

Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the good news of God 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news.” 16 As Jesus passed along the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the sea, for they were fishers. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of people.” 18 And immediately they left their nets and followed him. 19 As he went a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20 Immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him.

So, Dan, if I can phrase it this way, what is the big idea of this particular passage?

[00:15:17] Dan: A big idea here is, it gives a concrete example of commitment to the ministry of Jesus, to participating with Jesus in his ministry.

Now, this directly applies today to those who know they’ve received a calling to, whatever you want to call it, the ordained ministry, the professional ministry. But some believe they’ve really been called to that kind of ministry, and they have to think about it, and what that entails, and what that means about the future of their lives.

But it also applies to all of us, as we all participate in many ways in the ongoing ministry of Jesus. So, when Jesus calls us to do something, we need to respond because it’s our time. It’s as Mark would say, immediately. It’s our time to receive and respond to God’s call.

Ministry and discipleship may call for us to leave a job, leave property, even sadly, sometimes leave family if need be. And we have to consider our response.

We can either run away from our calling as Jonah did in the Old Testament, or we can respond as Peter, Andrew, James, and John did to Jesus’ call for us to participate with him in his ministry.

[00:16:46] Anthony: Each time I read Mark’s Gospel account, I’m just struck by the speed and urgency of the storytelling. The word immediately, which you’ve already referred to, shows up numerous times in the book and in today’s text.

Even to the point where James and John leave their daddy in the boat, right? What’s behind the urgency of Mark’s telling of the Gospel story?

[00:17:09] Dan: Over half the uses of the word immediately in the entire New Testament are found in the very short Gospel of Mark. Now, there are several theories as to why Mark uses the word immediately so many times.

For example, one is, Mark was young and impetuous. Two, he prefers action over teaching. And three, he was a lousy writer. His Greek is unimpressive with lots of problems in syntax and transitions. But to give Mark some credit, he’s actually a better writer than some would give him credit for being. His purpose is to identify Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.

He begins his short Gospel that way, and he ends it that way. Now, in between, his style produces a sense of urgency. He writes deliberately to that end. For Mark, the time has come. The kingdom of God has come near, and so he wants his readers to understand we need to get ready and respond now, immediately.

[00:18:24] Anthony: Let’s immediately move to our final passage of the month. It’s 1 Corinthians 8:1-13. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday after Epiphany, on January 28.

Dan, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please.

[00:18:41] Dan: I’d be happy to. Chapter 8, beginning in verse 1 of 1 Corinthians, Paul writes:

Now concerning food sacrificed to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 Anyone who claims to know something does not yet have the necessary knowledge, 3 but anyone who loves God is known by him. 4 Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “no idol in the world really exists” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 7 It is not everyone, however, who has this knowledge. Since some have become so accustomed to idols until now, they still think of the food they eat as food offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 “Food will not bring us close to God.” We are no worse off if we do not eat and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if others see you, who possess knowledge, eating in the temple of an idol, might they not, since their conscience is weak, be encouraged to the point of eating food sacrificed to idols? 11 So by your knowledge the weak brother or sister for whom Christ died is destroyed. 12 But when you thus sin against brothers and sisters and wound their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of their falling, I will never again eat meat, so that I may not cause one of them to fall.

[00:21:04] Anthony: So, looking back through this pericope, the very first verse says that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. Knowledge is generally revered, and certainly something we all seek. So, help us understand what Paul is really getting at with this statement, Dan.

[00:21:23] Dan: Okay the Christians in the city of Corinth were blessed with many spiritual gifts. But sadly, this had gone to their heads and caused division in the congregation. Now, one of the gifts, evidently, was the gift of knowledge. The Greek word is gnosis. And it appears to [have] become a popular catch word for the Corinthians.

Now, at least some, evidently, had come to believe that their special knowledge gave them rights and freedoms to act and behave as they wanted. Paul points out that their knowledge really is only partial, and that the basis of Christian conduct is not knowledge but love, as Paul goes on to say in chapter 13 of first Corinthians. “If I understand all mysteries and all knowledge, but do not have love, I am nothing now.”

In other words, if you know that the monarchy of the Trinity is located in the being of God, not in the persons of God, and you understand the perichoresis, the homoousion, and the hypostatic union, and that there is no lacuna in the prolepsis of the eschaton, but that the eschatological Parousia is certain, but you judge and tell me that because I don’t understand that, that I’m a stupid disciple and not worthy of being called a Christian … you just might be a Corinthian! (Apologies there to Jeff Foxworthy.)

[00:22:55] Anthony: As I’m looking at verse nine, Dan, thinking about just what you said. You could have all this knowledge, theological jargon, but if you abuse the liberties that you have and it becomes a stumbling block to others, that’s problematic to God. And I just want to ask you, is there any way that you can contextualize that in the modern day?

Maybe things that you see where we are taking liberty, that is actually becoming a stumbling block to others. Any words that you would say there?

[00:23:32] Dan: Yeah, I would put it this way. If I were giving a sermon and after I had exegeted this pericope, I would probably come back and say something to the effect that, what do we learn from the apostle Paul in this passage?

Some Christians, perhaps relatively new to the faith, though intellectually they knew and understood the gospel, were still subjectively and by habit tied into their old ideas and ways. We can see this today. We see Christians, maybe even ourselves, we say, cross your fingers, or knock on wood, or here’s wishing you good luck. And now we know objectively that those things are superstitions, but it’s a part of our culture, and we still subjectively use those terms.

But so, how should we, as church leaders and senior members of a congregation, act and behave toward folks, especially those who are new? What kind of examples should be set? Paul would admonish the leaders and senior members to be careful. Now what about us? Are we conscious and aware of how our example as church leaders and senior members affect those who are new to our congregations?

What about our example? Now, not in matters of indifference, but in matters that might mislead and hurt new attendees. Might we even lead them into sin by our attitude and conduct?

On one level, what if we knew that some new attendees, because of their former religion or church, believed that it was a sin to eat pork? Would we invite them over to our house or have a fellowship meal at church that offered only pork? Would that be a good way to educate them and break them in?

But even more seriously, and right along the lines of what Paul is talking about in our passage, let me give this example—because what Paul is really talking about is eating meat sacrificed to idols, but eating it at the pagan temple.

Now we’ve got to remember that the pagan temples in those days were kind of their versions of what we might call a restaurant. In other words, if you wanted to get a good steak, where would you go? You’d go down to the local pagan temple because that’s where the animals were slaughtered and butchered and cooked and served as meals. And the community would go there, and they would eat and of course they would have the dancing girls, the prostitutes, the idols and all of that. But hey, it was a good meal.

So let me give this example. It’s something that came to mind while I was watching the TV show The Big Bang Theory. Now, in that show, there’s a character named Barry Kripke.

And Barry likes to invite new acquaintances and new colleagues to have dinner with him at a buffet that has excellent food and is very affordable. Now, the buffet is located in the local strip club. So, what if a church leader or senior church member invited a new attendee to a meal at a strip club? The leader or member could argue they only go there for the food, and they have the character not to look at anything else.

Some in Corinth are making much the same argument about going to a pagan temple for a meal. Now, would any of us do that to a new member? God forbid! We could very well be leading someone into sin, even an addiction, by our so-called freedom and our belief in our own character.

Let’s realize that God has called us to follow and imitate Christ. We’re to walk as he walked; we’re to follow Paul as he followed Christ. Others should be able to follow us as we follow Paul. And as we follow Christ, it’s not about us. It’s not about our freedom. It’s not about our knowledge. It’s about love and concern for others, and we need to realize the importance of setting a right example for other people, of being a light set on a stand, of being a city set on a hill for all to see.

So, what should we do? We should spiritually discipline ourselves and let our example shine. And be a light and a guide to others, because that is love, and the greatest of all gifts is not knowledge. The greatest of all gifts is love. God has all knowledge, but God is love, and we are his children in communion with the Holy Spirit and in union with Christ.

So, what should we do? Let’s grow up to be like our Father and let us grow in love.

[00:28:55] Anthony: Hallelujah and amen.

Pastors, I want to remind you that God could have chosen angels or any other thing he’s created to preach the gospel. But he chose the weak who can sympathize with the weak. He’s chosen you pastors, you preachers, you teachers. Thank you for your labor of love and Christ’s service.

Dan, I want to thank you for participating in the many ways that you have. Thank you for your insights here today. I have no doubt there are nuggets that our preachers are going to be able to take away from our discussion here today. So, thank you so very much for your labor of love.

And I want to thank three people who helped make this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, David McKinnon, and Elizabeth Mullins. They’re a great team and I certainly could not do this without them.

As is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we like to end with prayer. And Mr. Rogers, if you would we’d be grateful for your prayer over our listening audience here today.

[00:30:00] Dan: I’d be happy to, Anthony.

And let me, first of all, say thank you for the job you do on Gospel Reverb. In my opinion, for what it’s worth, I think you do a wonderful job here, and I really enjoy listening to all of your programs. And thank you for allowing me to be a part of them.

So, if you join me now in prayer.

Our great God and Father in heaven, we come to you through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and in the Holy Spirit to praise and to worship you and to realize it is all about you.

And our preaching and our teaching and in everything we do, it’s about you, and it’s about love. Love God and love others, that fulfills everything you’ve asked of us as humans to do.

God, we need your help. We need your power. We need you in our lives. We need to participate with you through the Spirit to bring this about. But God, we trust in you and your faithfulness to do this for us.

Thank you for your word. Help us to rightly understand it, rightly preach it, rightly teach it, and rightly live by it. And let us interpret it all through the lens of our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, who is our epiphany, who is the one who reveals to us your way, your word, and your being. So, we give you thanks and praise, and ask your blessing, and give you great thanks in the name of our Savior, Jesus. Amen.

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God in the Neighborhood w/ Winn Collier

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and I’m jazzed to welcome our guest this month, Dr. Winn Collier. Winn is an Episcopal priest who serves as the director of the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination at Western Theological Seminary, along with being an associate professor of Pastoral Theology and Christian Imagination.

Wynn served as a pastor for 27 years and was the founding pastor of All Souls Charlottesville. He’s probably best known for writing the popular authorized biography of Eugene Peterson. It’s called A Burning In My Bones.

And friends, it was my personal book of the year last year. I’ve read through it a couple of times. It’s an exceptional literary work. And I hope you’ll get a copy wherever you purchase your favorite books.

Wynn, thank you for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d love to know a little bit about you, your personal story, your family, and how you are participating with the Lord these days.

Winn: Hi, Anthony. Thank you for inviting me to have this conversation with you. I’ve been looking forward to it. Where should I begin? I’m a Texan. I was born in Texas into a pastor’s family. So that means I love Mexican food, and I’m probably a little bit obnoxious. But …

[00:02:06] Anthony: Is “Tex Mex” Mexican food, by the way, Winn?

[00:02:08] Winn: Oh, right. That’s short—yes. Technically, yes, it is Tex Mex. That’s a fair call right there.

I am the husband to Miska Collier. She’s a spiritual director and a yoga teacher, and I am a dad to two college age sons. And I’m a pastor and a writer, and I love the church. I love this beautiful world God’s given us.

I’m heartbroken over what we do with it many days, but I have a deep abiding faith in the one who is nailed to a cross and then raised from the dead and that’s my hope.

[00:02:57] Anthony: And hope is a spiritual practice, isn’t it? We practice it daily, and it feels like to me that hope in a world that has a difficult time hoping, it’s an act of resistance, isn’t it? And we hope in the one who hung from the cross, like you said.

You became a good friend of Eugene Peterson. Even though he is since passed, he remains a mentor of mine in pastoral theology and practice. And you wrote about his life and his pastoral calling.

Would you take some time and just tell us about the man Eugene Peterson? And if anyone in the listening audience hasn’t read his work, is there a particular book or piece that you would recommend? And if so, why?

[00:03:40] Winn: Sure. Like you, I didn’t come into writing Eugene’s biography as an innocent bystander. I had been really transformed not just by Eugene, but by how he was a witness to the oldest, most ancient way the church has understood of what it means to be a pastor.

And at least in my experience, that had just been really obscured. And one elder at a church where I was years ago, after a Sunday, came up and handed me Eugene’s Working the Angles, The Shape of Pastoral Integrity. And he said, “Winn, I think you’ll enjoy this.”

And I realized later what he meant was, Winn, I think you need this. And he was absolutely right, but it gave me a language for, I think, what the cry of my heart was, but I just I didn’t know. I didn’t know what to call it.

I didn’t I didn’t know what this pastoral vision meant, what this deep love for the church meant, what this wide and generous and expansive vision of God’s presence in the world meant. And Eugene, primarily at first through letters, became a pastor to me, writing letters back and forth.

And 12 or 15 years later, I began to write his biography. Eugene is known in multiple different ways, depending on your circle. So, there’s a number of us who feel called deeply to this pastoral life. And Eugene, probably in the last 15 years, is one of those primary voices, just calling us back to fidelity as pastors.

And then there’s the way he’s most widely known probably is as the translator of The Message. Millions of people bought and read The Message. And then there’s this assorted company of writers and artists and photographers and musicians and carpenters and plumbers and what I call befuddled, but really trying to remain faithful Christians, who found Eugene to be this very wise, rooted, God-drenched voice.

And so, I think that’s his abiding gift to the church, and if you haven’t read Eugene, I would say maybe start with one of his classics, which is Long Obedience in the Same Direction. It’s this just profound, really wedded into the realities of life, exploration through the Psalms and the Songs of Ascent of what does it mean to be one who is following in the way of Jesus? What [does] discipleship really look like?

Another option might be Leap Over a Wall, which is his meditations on the life of David and what he termed—and now has become almost cliche, but—earthy spirituality. And those might be good starting places.

[00:06:52] Anthony: Yeah, he’s a prism. Every human is layered and nuanced and complicated.

But the thing I’ve always been drawn to about him through his writings and the interviews I’ve seen is just the humility. What pastor writes a book called An Unnecessary Pastor? Typically, these days, we’re writing about how necessary we are at whatever we do but he was dogged in his determination to point to the true shepherd Jesus.

Again, I’m just so grateful, Winn, for your work and A Burning In My Bones. It was exceptional. Thank you. And I know it probably took some of your life to do it, but …

[00:07:36] Winn: It did. I thought it had buried me a couple of times.

[00:07:41] Anthony: Oh boy.

The term Christian imagination pops up frequently with your work in the academic world. Some in our listening audience may not be familiar with the term. So, help us understand. What is it and why does it matter?

[00:07:55] Winn: I guess you should start with the word imagination. A lot of times we think the word imagination only means the imaginary, like things that aren’t actually real. But imagination is much deeper and wider than that.

Really, it’s the capacity to make meaning out of things. It’s the integrative work that every human does. So, some people might say, I’m not very imaginative. That’s actually not true; it’s part of being human. If you make sense of things in the world, if you take data and experiences and relationships and conversations and intuitions and loves, and you begin to integrate that and to find meaning in that purpose, then you are doing imaginative work.

Science at its best is imaginative mathematics. John Polkinghorne would talk about the beauty of mathematics and imagination. Then a Christian imagination means that our meaning making of this world is formed and shaped and grounded in and find its only life and energy in the person of Jesus Christ, the true human, the one who brought God and humanity into intersection and into union.

And a Christian imagination means that if it’s true, as Hopkins said [As Kingfishers Catch Fire by Gerard Manley Hopkins], that Christ plays in 10,000 places, that grace is erupting everywhere, then a Christian imagination means that we expect to pull all of God’s reality—as much as we’re able to—and all of the different threads of God’s truth from all of the ways that God reveals God’s self.

So through conversation, obviously through Scripture, first and foremost, the person of Christ, through the Book of Creation, through the wonders of human creativity, which is an image-bearing capacity that we as humans have through— it’s why we need novels and poetry and music and all the beautiful things is because this is actually, when it’s true, it’s actually Christ at play.

And so Christian imagination is refusing to segregate our life as if the spiritual reality is only this tiny little sphere that we’re now trying to ward off everything else from, but it’s far more pervasive and expansive. And it means that all of creation and all of our life is brought into the healing and the presence of Christ.

It’s being made new and that there is always the possibility of mercy and grace and beauty and wonder that is holy, that comes from God overwhelming us at any moment in any place.

[00:10:42] Anthony: My thoughts got stuck on the word wonder, which you used. And I’m of the opinion, Winn, that it’s one of the areas where the church really needs to up its game, that we’ve just lost our sense of wonder, that the Christian faith can sometimes get flat.

Am I wrong? It’s beauty, and it’s wonder.

[00:11:02] Winn: No that’s right. And I’d like to encourage you in that, as I’ve heard you describe the purpose of what your work here with Gospel Reverb is right on track, because sometimes we’ll say, hey we need to have more wonder. And then we’ll go out and abstractly seek to experience wonder, but wonder is wedded to the triune God.

Wonder is wedded to what it means to encounter the living Christ who is resurrected now in this world, who is present this very moment, who is nearer to me than my own breath, this God who I meet in the eyes of every stranger. Wonder is found as we more deeply encounter the brilliant and shimmering reality of Jesus Christ.

And as we seek to more truly encounter the resurrected one, then wonder begins to happen. But if we seek wonder for its own sake, it’s always going to be a shadow. It might be a good shadow, but it’s always going to be just a shadow. And so, as we pursue Christ, and as we open our heart to not just our narrow parochial vision of who Christ is, but actually the Christ as revealed in the Hebrew Bible to Revelation, the Christ that’s revealed in the wonder of creation itself, then all these things begin to fire like electricity.

[00:12:41] Anthony: My wife and I rewatched the movie last night based on Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers. And he loved to talk about wonder and silence, how they are wedded together, that we just have so much noise in the world, that we just don’t see it. Christ, grow our awareness of who you are and how you’re at work in our places and spaces.

Thank you for your work, Winn. That sounds exciting, what you’re up to there at Western.

Alright, let’s do this. We have several lectionary passages we’ll be discussing here today.

Mark 13:24-37 “Spiritual B12”

Mark 1:1-8 “The Good News of Jesus Christ”

John 1:6-8; 9-28 “God In the Neighborhood”

Luke 1:26-38 “God’s Favor”

Let’s transition to our first pericope of the month. It’s Mark 13:24–37. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday of Advent on December 3.

“But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels and gather the elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. 28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Beware, keep alert, for you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35 Therefore, keep awake, for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening or at midnight or at cockcrow or at dawn, 36 or else he may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake.”

I would imagine, Winn, as an Episcopal priest, you’re quite familiar with the liturgical calendar and the season of Advent. So, I want to ask you on this first Sunday of Advent, how does this season fit into the grand narrative of Scripture and the retelling of the gospel story?

[00:15:35] Winn: I love how Advent is the beginning of the Christian year. And so, at the very beginning of Christian time—and when we say Christian time, what we mean is time that is as it truly is, which is centered in Jesus Christ. We wouldn’t even have time, we wouldn’t have history, we wouldn’t have humanity if it weren’t for the true human, our brother, Jesus Christ.

And at the beginning of the Christian year, we’re invited for these four weeks to retell, but not just retell, as if it’s merely reflection, but actually to re-enter the truest story of humanity, which is the story of Christ, bringing God and humanity together in this one human. And what’s deeply powerful about Advent is it encompasses the totality of the human story in all of history.

So, it’s not only, obviously as we know, it’s not only a time of preparation for the celebration of Christmas. Even as we’re doing that, it’s a much broader story. It’s looking back to before human time ever began and realize that all of creation has always been waiting for the coming of Christ. And now that Christ in the person of Jesus, God has come into the human story in a more profound and immediate and fleshly way, that we’re again, looking forward to the ultimate end of human history, which is the renewal of all things when Jesus will come again.

And so, in these four weeks—and it’s interesting how we’ve lost this in most sort of Protestant expressions of Advent. But for a lot of church history, when Advent was celebrated, it was also a penitential [relating to penance / remorse] season, something like Lent.

And in Lent, we often do some kind of fasting or some way of helping our body to really be attentive to the in-breaking realities of Christ. And Advent was also that way. There’s something about this conditioning of ourselves, this posture of humble hope, which recognizes that unless God breaks into our reality, we are doomed.

But the good news is that God has, and God will, and we are never abandoned, and we are never alone. And we are always in this place of recognizing what God has done, and what God will do. We’re just waiting for the story to continue to unfold. And that’s a good place to be.

[00:18:28] Anthony: Yeah. And Karl Barth would say it’s the only place to be. I think he said in Church Dogmatics, “What other time or season can or will the church ever have, but that of Advent.”

I can still hear Fleming Rutledge pushing back on Advent just being a placeholder for Christmas as just, we’re just longing to get to Christmas. No, this is the season we’re in.

And I think it was Frederick Buechner that talked about Advent being like being in a theater. There’s this sense of anticipation for the curtain to offer up the great reveal. And of course, the reveal is the Son of God and his reappearance.

Winn, if you were exegeting this passage to prepare for a sermon—and there’s a lot in here and it can get sideways really quickly—what would be your focus on declaring the gospel?

[00:19:22] Winn: Since you mentioned Barth, Barth once said that when he was preaching a sermon, he would always assume that there was at least one person in the room asking the question, could this story possibly be true?

And then Barth says, then I would preach to that one person. And that’s a deep resonance for me and how I understand the gospel. It is, in every profound and penetrating way, it is deeply good news! And good news will be often disruptive. It will unnerve, but it always creates life and possibility.

So, when I when I read this passage yesterday thinking about our conversation,

I first went to these opening lines. The good news of God seems to always arrive, and of course, it’s so because we’re always in this condition, in one way or another. It always arrives when it seems like suffering rules the day. When it seems like the sun itself has darkened. When the moon, even the source of beauty and light, seems to be giving no light anymore.

When it seems like all that we count on, like even the stars, seem like they’re just falling out of the sky. Whenever it seems like the powers of heaven are being shaken and all the powers that we rely on and depend on.

And we’re walking through some things as a family right now where I sense a little bit of that. I sense where the powers are shaken, and stars seem to be falling. And it’s precisely into that place that the Son of Man comes with great power. And I believe that the Christian story, the Jesus-centered story, is that Jesus enters into the suffering realities of the world.

Today as I’m thinking through this and we’re having this conversation, things are completely unraveling in Israel and Gaza. And I hope that by the time people listen to this, that’s changed. I don’t have a ton of hope. I do have hope that this will not be the final word. That these realities, we can’t ignore them. We must name them. We must weep in them. We must weep with those who are weeping.

And we know that there is coming a day, and has already been a day, where it has been inaugurated and revealed. And the final chapter is coming where this Son of Man will come in great power. And in that day, the sun will be bright and the moon will shimmer with radiance and the stars will be fixed like beauty as they’re meant to be. And the power, because it’s in God’s good hands will not be shaken. And I long for that day.

[00:22:17] Anthony: Come Lord Jesus, amen and amen.

I don’t know if it’s been your experience, Winn, none of us pray for suffering, right? Hey Lord, give me some suffering. No, we don’t do that. However, as I reflect back on my life and lived experience, I experienced God in suffering in a way I don’t when life feels like fluff. I just learn more about his devotion, his faithfulness.

And again, I’m with you. I mourn and I grieve what’s happening in the Middle East. So come, Lord Jesus and set things right.

Let’s transition into our second pericope of the month. It’s Mark 1:1–8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Advent, which is December 10.

Winn, would you read it for us, please?

[00:23:03] Winn: Sure.

The beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ. 2 As it is written in the prophet Isaiah, “See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way, the voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight,’” 4 so John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 He proclaimed, “The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the strap of his sandals. 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

[00:23:58] Anthony: Winn, to quote Karl Barth again, he says, “The gospel does not indicate possibilities, but declares actualities.” And I use that as a springboard into this passage because Mark starts with the beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ.

So, tell us more about this good news.

[00:24:19] Winn: Yeah, I love how, that word “beginning,” the beginning of the good news, which has multiple possible meanings. It’s the source, it’s the starting place. It’s like the water source for the river. If you trace it all the way back, everything that is good news begins in Jesus, everything that is truly hopeful for the world begins in Jesus.

And I think that’s a corrective for us because it means whenever the gospel we’re offering isn’t good news for the world, we need to step back and rethink what it is that we’re believing. But it also means that everything that is good and beautiful and just and true, it finds its roots in Jesus Christ. And that is a proclamation that we make with assurance and confidence and hope.

One of my favorite beloved theologians was Robert Jensen, and he described the gospel as the story of God proclaimed as a promise. (I’m sorry. I messed that up.) The story of Jesus proclaimed as a promise. And it means that everything that Jesus did, everything that John the Baptizer was pointing to, everything about this Jesus is a promise for us, because he’s the true human.

He’s the one who, in his one body, united the triune God and humanity, which is our true home, that’s where we’re to be. And in this Jesus, we find out what it means to say the name, God. Whenever we want to know what God is like, look at Jesus Christ.

And we began to learn, what does it mean to use a word like human? We don’t get abstract ideas or our own experiences of what it means to be human and then go and try to see how that gets globbed onto Jesus. Just the reverse. We look at Jesus and we say, oh, this is what it means to be human, to live like this, to have this heart, to move in this way, to know God in this way, to love all of humanity in this way, to give your life for the love of others in this way, to love and delight in the goodness of this world in this way. This is what it actually means to be human.

And so, the one that John proclaimed is the one who shows us, in the deepest and fullest and widest sense, what it actually means to be alive.

[00:27:01] Anthony: You use the word globbed. I wasn’t expecting that on this podcast. Well done, sir.

When was the last time you wore camel’s hair and ate locusts and wild honey, Winn?

[00:27:15] Winn: Yeah, yesterday.

[00:27:16] Anthony: It’s been a while, 24 hours? I won’t ask you to tell that story, but let’s talk about John the baptizer for a moment. He prepared the way of the Lord. My question for you, is that an effort solely unique to John, or do we have some sort of participation in the Spirit for preparing the way for Christ’s next appearance?

[00:27:40] Winn: Yeah, in some ways I want to say both. I think it was very unique to John, but it’s actually in that particularity that we find our own calling to. And so, I even think of what does it mean to prepare the way? And what seems important to me, maybe in this cultural moment that we’re in the North American church, is there’s a difference between preparing the way and thinking you are the way.

There’s a difference between this humble posture that says, Jesus is good news in all the places where your heart aches and all the places where we’re destroying ourselves and all the places where we have given ourselves over to perversions and lies and distorted our humanity. Help is coming.

And that’s a very different posture from. I’m convinced I have the answer and the resources and I’m going to use power to manipulate reality to force upon you, accepting or at least submitting to some Christianized version of a cultural vision that I have. That’s exactly the opposite from the sacrificial self-giving. transformative, death-denying, life-affirming reality that is Jesus Christ.

And so, you have this moment looking forward toward the end of the story, which is where the end of Advent takes us, which is this beautiful vision of a future where every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And in the story of Jesus, that is not a coercive, the divine cracking the holy whip. It is, what else would you do when you have been so undone by the brilliance of love?

What else would you do when you have actually come face to face with the healing reality of the one who suffered and died and healed and renewed? What else would you do in your right mind other than to bend your knee? Because wonder is there. And I think the question for me is not just are we to prepare the way but what does it mean to prepare the way?

And it is to point, in every part of our being—Eugene often said the way we go about truth is as essential to the truth as the truth we’re proclaiming. That the ways and the ends absolutely have to align, or one of them becomes a lie. And for us, as those who would say—we better pause before we say this—but for those of us who would say, I seek to follow the way of Jesus Christ, if we say that, then that means that our life is bent toward the reality of Jesus Christ’s sacrificial, self-giving love, and to prepare the way for that one, is to actually begin to live in that way and to point toward Jesus in ways that are congruent with the Jesus who is coming.

And I have both immense concern about where many of us in the North American church are and how we are saying that we’re following Jesus. And I have profound hope. Because Jesus is coming, and Jesus will heal, and Jesus will save, and Jesus will rescue, and Jesus will love, and Jesus will gather. And I really hope that we aren’t resistant to that but are actually preparing and participating in that.

[00:31:27] Anthony: Yeah, I really appreciated what you said from Eugene about the ways that we proclaim the way, and in that, we can turn back to John the baptizer and think of that passage in John 1 where he points away from himself and points to the one, the true human and says, look, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

And he doesn’t seem to get too uptight when his disciples leave him and follow Jesus. And isn’t that really the way? We’re pointing to him who is our true hope. And I also appreciated the eschatological vision you gave us of every mouth confessing.

A friend of the podcast, Kenneth Tanner, talks about when true, pure love is revealed, as you mentioned, what other response is there but our knees to be buckled, not being coerced, not being strong arm. What else is there, but to bow in love and worship to the one who has made us?

Good stuff.

Let’s transition to our third pericope of the month. It’s John 1:6-8, 19-28. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday of Advent on December 17.

There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He himself was not the light, but he came to testify to the light.

19 This is the testimony given by John when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed and did not deny it, but he confessed, “I am not the Messiah.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” He answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you? Let us have an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’” as the prophet Isaiah said. 24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, “Why, then, are you baptizing if you are neither the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?” 26 John answered them, “I baptize with water. Among you stands one whom you do not know, 27 the one who is coming after me; I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandal.” 28 This took place in Bethany across the Jordan where John was baptizing.

When it states the true light enlightens everyone, according to verse 8, let’s use our Christian imagination. Enliven and enlighten us to consider what in actuality that means.

[00:33:52] Winn: Yeah. Isn’t that a stunning line? Enlighten everyone. I don’t know that I know what all that means, but I think there’s some hints. I think it’s really striking that it doesn’t say shine a light in front of them. It doesn’t say make some light available to them. It actually says enlighten everyone.

This light is shining into the human soul, into the human person, and that this light is from God through Jesus Christ. So, I think there’s two things we have to say at the same time.

One is every human person—and this is what we would expect going all the way back to the Genesis story, where if you breathe, you breathe because the breath of God has been breathed into this whole idea. And again, there’s some shades to it and there’s some metaphor here that has some scriptural resonance. But this overdone way of talking about humanity, which is this guiding idea of separation, that we are far from God, and that’s not true.

If we breathe, God is closer than our breath. The psalmist talks about how we stand, the whole earth is filled with the glory of God. If you are standing or sitting anywhere on the globe at this very moment, you are literally held up by the glory of God, the love of God.

And so, God is never far. It’s a delusion and it’s a lie. The same one who from the beginning, the tempter’s great evil was in telling lies about God, and we’ve often consented and gone along with that.

God is very near, and God in the person of Jesus Christ has enlightened everyone. And this light, though, is no vague spiritual light. It’s no self-manifested light by our ever-increasing levels of consciousness. This is the light of revelation of Jesus Christ, that this light of God will not break into the human heart unless in the person of Jesus Christ, it breaks in.

And that’s exactly what has happened, John tells us, is that in the person of Jesus Christ, the light of God has broken into the human heart, every human person. Which opens up just a million places of wonder and sadness. The sorrow is how much more ridiculous is it, chaotic to run away from God?

So, all this is to say is that each one of us encounters the light of God in Jesus Christ. And we don’t just encounter it external to us, but it’s actually by the Spirit of God through the risen Christ is actually breaking into our heart.

And it is this Jesus who is our light. And so, to run away from Jesus, to resist Jesus is to resist our true home, our true being, our true future.

And it’s a stunning thing to think that in each place of human sorrow—even those of us who think we’re very far from God, even as those of us who don’t believe in God, even those in our life that we worry, and we have such perhaps fear for even because they just seem like they’re drifting away—that there is no person whom Jesus hasn’t broken in for.

There is no person who is outside the scope of Jesus’ love. There is no person who is so powerful that they are able to resist every bit of Jesus’ light and love because it is already broken in.

And so, the invitation then is to receive it. To receive it. To stop resisting it. To come home, to just say yes to love. And if this is the posture of Jesus towards every person, this is also the posture of Jesus’ people toward every person.

[00:38:18] Anthony: Amen. That’s where it gets highly practical, right? The way that we view our neighbor. The way that we love our enemies. And may we, Lord, point to truth as it is. I’m looking at verse 16 right now, Wynn, and it talks about a God who doesn’t give us the scraps off his table. It’s from his fullness we’ve all received grace upon grace! He doesn’t withhold. He is not separated from you.

And so often our declaration of the gospel sounds like an “if” proposition. If you do this, God will do that. Quid pro quo. That’s not what we see revealed in Jesus Christ, right? He is the first word and the last word in that way. Hallelujah. Praise God. I don’t know how a Christian could not be enamored with the declaration of John 1:14.

And Eugene Peterson in The Message wrote, “The word became flesh and blood and moved into the neighborhood.” It’s just a simple but staggering pronouncement. And you talk about earthy spirituality, right? So, for you personally, why does the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ captivate you?

[00:39:35] Winn: It’s the whole story. It’s what all of creation groaned for. It is everything that gives us our hope. This light that has broken into humanity and into every human person and every place of horror and sorrow is precisely because Jesus Christ reveals to us and actually makes it so that God never stays outside our troubles.

And that in Jesus Christ, I actually know for the very first time what it means to be human, what it means to be alive. What it means to be made in God’s image, why I have been drawn into the truest and widest story of the universe. Why my life has meaning. Why those I love, and I am awake in the middle of the night fearful for, why there is no moment when those ones I love are ever abandoned.

There is no place of despair that is ever, ever outside the reach and the scope and the active work of Christ’s mercy. And that all of this is because God, as I understand it, has always from the beginning, before the beginning of human time, has always intended to unite humanity to God. So, I don’t understand the incarnation as a sort of plan B, just a reaction to human sinfulness.

I think the way the story played out obviously was not God’s first intention. My understanding is God’s intention was always to draw humanity into the triune life and that this is part of what it means to be God, is to give oneself for the good of others and to draw others into this never ending sphere of divine love.

So what other story is there?

[00:39:35] Anthony: Jesus said, when the Son of Man is lifted up, he will draw all people to himself. And it’s humbling to have a share in that participation, right? To proclaim the truth of who Jesus is.

We’re in the homestretch. One final pericope to go for the month. It’s Luke chapter 1:26–38. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday of Advent, December 24.

When would you read it for us, please?

[00:42:11] Winn: Sure.

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God. 36 And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 Then Mary said, “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

[00:43:29] Anthony: This seems like a bit of a silly question, given what you just read, but where do you personally find good news in this passage?

[00:43:36] Winn: I think the most obvious place where I go is God—in ways that only make sense because of what all we just said about the incarnation—that God chose to enter the world in absolute humility through the way every human does, which is through the womb of a woman.

And I think it just unravels all kinds of things. Just the fact that it was a woman, that God unfolded this story in a way that this young vulnerable woman, Mary, would be absolutely central to what God chose to communicate and reveal about God’s self through coming through her womb.

And that this baby who was God, came through a womb in a way that was actually dependent on Mary, that actually needed to be fed from Mary’s breast, that actually needed to be tended to, and be cleaned by Mary, and was absolutely reliant on Mary—this kind of absolute humility.

And this gives us the first window into what would come to be fully revealed in the mature and grown Jesus Christ, then you look back on the story and you say of course, God came this way.

Jesus didn’t grow up and then just begin to practice humility, but this was woven into the very being of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is fully God. And so, when we look at the God revealed in Jesus Christ, we are stunned by a reality of God. To be quite frank here, this is a unique proclamation of the faith revealed in Jesus Christ, that God would be humble in this way, and that somehow the way of love is to bend and to yield and to win by humility.

And so that’s just a stunning reality to me.

[00:45:48] Anthony: And in light of that reality, this God revealed in Jesus Christ with incredible humility, it makes sense that Mary would respond the way that she did, and I’m drawn to her response. She says, here I am, the servant of the Lord, let it be with me according to your word.

We say that, but sometimes I wonder for myself, do I really mean it? So, what can we learn from her humble and truly exceptional response?

[00:46:17] Winn: We just follow in the way of Mary. Mary is our teacher. Mary knows in her deep heart, her quiet heart, her bold heart, Mary knows that to yield to God is the safest place to be, the most human place to be, the most enlivened and awakening place to be. And that all of her heart longings and anxieties and fears and—just imagine in the first century. I mean we know what’s happening now on the same soil. Imagine the first century where you have the empire of Rome, and you have the uncertainty about your family’s future, and you have all of that.

To think that to follow this God, who Mary would learn was going to look different than she would have imagined, but she trusted that to follow this God was the way of life and healing. And that everything Jesus did from there was toward the healing of the world, even in Jesus’s baptism. Gregory of Nazianzus said that Jesus rises from the waters and the world rises with him.

And When Jesus hung on that cross, all of the evil and ruin that we have brought into our world hung there with Jesus. And as Jesus descended into the depths, all of the evil descended with him. And as Jesus rose from the dead, all of our new possibility rose there because this is the one who is Jesus.

And so, to humbly say yes. It’s to say yes to all of that. And will it require our life? Yes, it absolutely will. And will we have to bend our knee and declare him as Lord? Yes, we will. And that’s the most sane, beautiful, safe, gracious, merciful possibility.

[00:48:22] Anthony: Hallelujah and amen. I believe, Winn, that theology’s best use is doxology when it leads us to a place of praise and prayer. And you have done so.

I mentioned this to you offline before we got started. But even though we’ve never met personally, through your writing, through our email exchanges, I really like you, brother, and am so grateful that you bear God’s image and likeness in the ways that you do. Thank you for your labor of love and ministry.

And I so appreciate you joining us here today. It’s beneficial to my soul and I know it will be for our listening audience as well. I also want to thank two people who are so crucial to this podcast, Reuel Enerio, our producer, and my wife, Elizabeth Mullins, who transcribes the words that were spoken.

So, Winn, what you said is going to go out to the world, so good luck with that, and may it have an impact for those who get to listen. And as is our tradition, we like to close with prayer. Winn, again, thank you. And if you would, say a word of prayer for our listening audience.

[00:49:28] Winn: Yes, thank you very much for having me and for being willing to have genuine conversations about what really matters, which is Jesus Christ revealed to us in the Scriptures. And for whoever is transcribing then please just clean up all my mistakes.

Let’s pray together.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you are God; you are hope; you are light piercing into the realities of our life. You are our future. You are our history. We are never abandoned because you are always near. We never ultimately despair because you tell the story.

In this season of Advent, would you come to us and appear to us again? Would your Spirit awaken us again? May we be faithful and true to the good news of Jesus Christ, which is our hope and the hope of all creation. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

The post God in the Neighborhood w/ Winn Collier first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Reign of Christ w/ Dr. Michael Morrison

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary .

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my joy to welcome our guest, Dr. Michael Morrison. Mike is the president of Grace Communion Seminary, has been a writer and editor for Grace Communion International since 1983, and works on a local level as a practitioner, as the associate pastor of GCI Glendora in California. Mike earned a PhD in New Testament studies from Fuller Theological Seminary.

Mike, thank you for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb, we’d love to know a bit about your story and how you’re participating with the Lord these days.

[00:01:27] Mike: Thanks, Anthony. Thanks for inviting me to be part of this podcast. I listen to it every month, and I hope that more people learn about it and learn from it.

I grew up in Sparta, a small town in southern Illinois. Our family was religious but did not go to church. We had a Bible study every week at home. I went to the University of Chicago for a couple years, and then Southern Illinois University, getting a bachelor’s degree in biology. I was studying for a graduate degree in zoology when I had some personal failures and I accepted Christ as my Savior and Lord.

That led to a career change, and I worked on the construction of a nuclear power plant in Kansas for two years, and then I went to Ambassador College to study theology. It was there that I met my wife, Janet. We were married in 1984 and we had two children, who are now married, and we have two grandchildren.

As you mentioned, I’ve been working for our denomination since 1983 as a writer and an editor. A few years after I started, the department manager told all the employees that we need to start studying for an accredited degree relevant to what our job was. At least I think that’s what he said. Nobody else seemed to hear it, or at least they didn’t do anything about it. So, I started studying at Azusa Pacific University, and with only one class at a time, it took a long time to get a Master of Divinity.

Then I was encouraged to study for a doctorate. We already had personnel who had specialized in theology, history, ministry, and Old Testament, so I chose to focus on the New Testament, and I wrote my dissertation on the book of Hebrews and finished in 2006.

Grace Communion Seminary started in 2004, and I was involved in it from the start, writing lectures on the Background of the New Testament, the four Gospels, the Epistles of Paul, and so forth. When we started to seek accreditation in 2010, I was given the title of Dean of Faculty, to coordinate the faculty and our courses. When Gary Deddo retired from being president a couple of years ago, I was asked to be the president in addition to teaching the same courses. So, I bounce back and forth from administrative work to the day-to-day work of teaching one course each semester.

How am I participating in what the Lord is doing? The seminary work is one of the ways. I am convinced that the church – any church – needs formal education to help us from going off in strange directions. As part of the Great Commission, we are supposed to teach people what Jesus taught, and we want to do our best to get it right. We will always make some mistakes along the way, but we won’t make as many if we take time to study what we’re doing, and to learn from others.

Another way that I’m participating in what the Lord is doing is in my local congregation in Glendora. I’m an associate pastor and one of the speakers. We put on a few events for the neighborhood each year, and I am part of the team that distributes fliers to all the houses in the surrounding area. I was actually doing that this morning.

Our congregation is also involved in the process of merging with another GCI church in the area, and that’s helped me think more about the purpose of the church. It’s not about survival, or self-preservation – it’s about mission. Survival wouldn’t do much good unless we also had a mission, a purpose beyond ourselves, so we need to think about what we are doing in order to be a blessing to other people.

If we merge two churches that have been declining, then the result is going to be just a continuation of the decline, unless we start doing something different. So, in a merger, our priority is not about making sure that each group feels like its own preferences are being honored. Rather, our priority is making sure that our practices will help us carry out the mission Jesus has given us. It’s not to please ourselves, but to serve others.

For example, it’s not about what kind of music we happen to like – it’s about what music is going to help other people who aren’t even here yet. We are supposed to be mature enough to handle a few things outside of what we prefer, and to think of what others might need. That’s part of what it means to be sent by a Lord and Savior who gave up his own privileges in order to serve our needs. He set an example that we should follow.

Another area of life in which I am participating with the Lord is my family. Even after 39 years of marriage, I have a lot to learn there, and it’s a ministry to serve what others need.

[00:06:28] Anthony: Knowing you and knowing your wife, Janet, she’s mentioned to me that you have a lot to learn. No, I haven’t heard that at all from her.

I’ll just tag on to what you said. You mentioned Mike that one of your primary ways of participating with the Lord is through the seminary where you serve as president and not everybody in our listening audience has heard of Grace Communion Seminary.

I want to give you an opportunity, as the president, to share why people who desire an advanced education—maybe in theology or biblical studies, maybe somebody wants to pursue a Master of Divinity—why should they consider GCS?

[00:07:06] Mike: Thanks. Thanks for that question. I do hope that the listeners desire advanced education. No doubt, some of them already have it.

One reason is that when we go to a dentist, for example, we don’t want somebody who is essentially self-taught. we want somebody who has studied the subject, and I think that the general public might reasonably want similar qualifications. for the area of spiritual health.

There are lots of seminaries out there, and most of them offer courses online, and many offer degrees that are completely online. And you can get a decent education at many of them. So why should someone want to take classes at Grace Communion Seminary rather than somewhere else?

The biggest reason, I think, is that we have the best theology. That might sound like I’m bragging, but really, if I could think of a better theology, then I’d try to change what we have. We want the best! (I suppose most other seminaries do as well, so you’d expect any of them to say that they have the best.) But we really do have the best.

For those who work in the GCI context, or those who like the theology they hear on this podcast, or on the You’re Included video interviews, then they would be interested in getting more theological training from this perspective, and that’s what we offer at Grace Communion Seminary.

It’s not just in the theology courses. Theology should have an effect on the way we read the Bible. It should have an effect on the way we do ministry. It should affect even the way we read about church history. So, one of our goals at Grace Communion Seminary is that we don’t just give nuts and bolts of how to do ministry, how to press the right psychological buttons to get people to do what you want them to do.

Rather, we want good theology to be the basis for everything we do, how we go about it. We want to make sure that we’re doing the right job and that we’re doing it in the right way. As we teach and interact with other people, are we doing it with the love of Jesus? Are we modeling for others the way he’d want it done?

So even our ministry courses have a theological foundation, and that’s one reason people should consider enrolling at Grace Communion Seminary. And last, maybe this isn’t a very good reason, but it does affect some people: we are one of the least expensive accredited seminaries around. We need to charge some tuition so we can stay in business, but we try to be administratively efficient, so that the cost doesn’t exclude all the people who need it.

So, Anthony, thanks for giving me the opportunity to let more people know about what we offer.

[00:09:58] Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. And I was able to take advantage of the education at GCS and earned a master’s degree there recently.

And for people that are interested, I would highly recommend the seminary. And even though it might be secondary, it is cost effective. And for some of us that really matters. But if you’re interested and want to know more information visit their website www.gcs.edu.

All right, let’s move on to the lectionary passages. That’s why we’re here today. We’re going to be looking at four pericopes.

1 Thessalonians 2:9-13 “You Are Witnesses”

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 “Resurrection Reality”

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 “Hope in Jesus”

Matthew 25:31-46 “Reign of Christ”

Our first pericope of the month is 1 Thessalonians 2:9-13. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition, which is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 26 in Ordinary Time, which falls on November 5.

9 You remember our labor and toil, brothers and sisters; we worked night and day so that we might not burden any of you while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. 10 You are witnesses, and God also, how pure, upright, and blameless our conduct was toward you believers. 11 As you know, we dealt with each one of you like a father with his children, 12 urging and encouraging you and pleading that you lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.

13 We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers.

Now, Mike, if you were exegeting this passage to prepare for a sermon, what would be the focus of this, from this pericope in your proclamation?

[00:12:19] Mike: The word exegesis means to draw something out. We want to get something out of the passage rather than reading our own ideas into it. Now, on any passage, there are a couple of basic questions we can start with.

First, what is the author trying to say? What’s the main point? And second, why is he saying it? How does he want the readers to respond to what he writes? In this passage, Paul is writing about himself, and the people who were traveling with him. He says, We worked night and day. Why is he saying that?

He says they had good behavior. What’s the point of saying that? Why is he reminding the people in Thessalonica of something that they already know?

That’s part of the pattern in the chapter. Verse 1 starts out, You yourselves know. Verse 2 includes the phrase, As we know. Verse 5 says, As you know. Verse 9 says, You remember. Verse 10, You are witnesses. Verse 11, As you know. And then, verse 13 reminds them of what they did, and of course they know that as well. He is rehearsing this history with the people.

Why?

We get a clue in verse 12, where he reminds them of what he was teaching them. He was “urging and encouraging you and pleading that you lead a life worthy of God.”

That’s part of his earlier message to them, and he thinks it’s worth repeating. That’s why he reminds them of the example he set in labor and toil, working night and day. We read later in the epistle that some of the people in Thessalonica are not working, and here Paul is helping reinforce what he will tell them later.

So, it seems that Paul wants the readers to live in a way that God wants. We can see some confirmation of that if we keep reading in the letter. In chapter 3, he says more about the relationship between Paul and the people in Thessalonica, and then in chapter 4, he makes his point. “We ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus that, as you learn from us how you ought to live and to please God … you should do so more and more.”

He wants them to have good behavior and he’s pointing them to his own behavior as an example: You learn from us how you ought to live. So that verse in chapter 4 confirms that we’re on the right track when we see that behavior is the main purpose of the passage in chapter 2. His concern is the way they’re living.

He wants them to be a good example to others, just as he was to them. So, the main point is that believers should live a life worthy of God.

Ah, wow. What does that mean? To live a life worthy of God? Isn’t that a rather tall order? Yes, it is. But we should note that Paul is not saying that we can earn our salvation by living a good life.

He is not saying we have to be perfect. We can’t. We will fall short. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t try. Being saved by grace through faith does not mean that God doesn’t care about the way we live. It doesn’t mean that he wants to leave us in a life of sin.

It’s a matter of living up to who we really are. God says he made us in his own image. We are his children, and we are supposed to live like he does. And that can be summarized in the one word, love. Humans are broken, and we don’t always know what love really is, so God tells us what it looks like. For example, it looks like being truthful with one another, being respectful, being faithful.

One reason that salvation is a good thing is that people will have good behavior. If people are just looking out for themselves and are willing to hurt other people in order to get their own way, then eternal life won’t be very enjoyable, at least for people on the bottom. Eternal life will be good for everybody, only if it is characterized by humility, service, and love for others.

We don’t want everybody deciding for themselves how to live, and what’s good and what’s bad. We want everyone to trust that God is giving us the best possible instructions for how to live.

And the best part of eternal life is that it will be with God. He actually wants to live with us, but that won’t be much fun for us unless we also want to live in the way that he does, in the way of love and kindness. And if we really want that in the future, then we will want to live that way now as well. If it’s good then, it’s good now.

[00:17:22] Anthony: Yeah, and thanks be to God that it’s not just the instruction, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that God gives himself to empower us to live the life he is calling us to live—a life, as you said, worthy of God.

And one of the ways that we live this life worthy of God, especially those who are called to teach others, is to point to Jesus. Like John the Baptist did in John 1, “There he is the lamb of god who takes away the sins of the world.”

And in this passage Paul states his words weren’t human, but God’s word. My question for you, Mike, is how do pastors, preachers, teachers safeguard themselves from preaching their own word instead of God’s word?

[00:18:07] Mike: All right. Yeah, Paul tells us that in verse 13. Some translations start a new paragraph at verse 13, but the Revised Common Lectionary includes it here as part of the same passage. Its function in this context is that it is a subtle reminder that Paul is writing with God’s authority. Just as the people received God Paul’s teaching as God’s word back then, so he wants them to receive his letter in the same way. He’s calling them to be attentive and responsive.

Your question reminds me, or this verse reminds me of what 1 Peter 4:11 says, that “whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God.” I’m not sure that we ever do that 100 percent right. I would not want to say that my sermons should be canonized and be used as the standard of right and wrong from now to the end of time. But I do hope that God can speak through me or that people will hear at least something from God in the words that I speak.

Church history and YouTube agree that preachers often speak their own words instead of what God is saying. Sometimes the speakers aren’t even trying to speak the words of God. But sometimes they are, and they don’t do a very good job of it. Your question presupposes that we want to get it right, that we want to present God’s word for the people and not just our own opinions.

One key to doing that is to stick close to the text. Don’t just use the text as a springboard to something else. It’s not just the introduction to our sermon, but it is the basis of the sermon. The sermon should re-present what the text says, and it should try to have a similar effect on the audience as the original text had.

Of course, our audiences are in such different circumstances we can never do it exactly the same, even if we do nothing but read the words of scripture exactly as they are. Because our audiences are in different circumstances, they are going to react to the words of Scripture in a way that might be different than what the original audience did.

So that’s part of the role of the preacher, to discern what the text is doing and to try to do it again for a different audience, when we as readers are in different contexts, thousands of years and thousands of miles away. So, we want to understand the original context, the historical and literary contexts.

And we want to understand our own context. Our own context will affect what we expect to find in the text, what questions we will ask, and even what things we don’t notice because we aren’t looking for them. A person who is in grief is going to notice different things than a person who is in a celebratory mood. So, we, ourselves, will notice different things in the Word of God based on our own context.

And then we also want to understand the context of the people we’re speaking to. Are they happy or sad? Are they worried about their salvation? Or are they taking it for granted? Are they puffed up with self-importance or dejected about their lack of importance? We want to give them a word from God that will meet them where they are. That’s why we need preachers and not just Bible readers.

It’s not an easy task. It requires an attitude of humility on our part and prayer that God might guide us to an appropriate message from the text for this audience at this time. A seminary course in biblical interpretation might help, a course in preaching might help, but a seminary course cannot give us humility and faith, and it cannot tell us what our audience happens to be thinking at this particular moment in the flow of time.

So that still leaves us with the question you ask, and perhaps that’s what each of us should ask when we are preparing to speak: am I being honest to what the text is trying to say, or am I using the text as an excuse to cover one of my own pet peeves or one of my favorite topics? That’s actually one of the advantages of using the Revised Common Lectionary. We don’t just choose our own passages according to the topics we happen to like but we submit to the text that is given to us that week.

The devil can quote scripture. But he will do so in a way that promotes selfishness, self-reliance, self-determination. Does our sermon promote our own ideas? Or does it respect what God has said? Are we pointing people to the Father, Son, and Spirit? And in this passage here in 1 Thessalonians, are we encouraging them to live a life that is appropriate to the way that God wants us to be?

[00:23:09] Anthony: Thinking about respecting the text—the word that God has given us, that’s been canonized for us—it’s one of the reasons I encourage preachers and teachers to read the scripture, in a scripture reading, like it’s the most important word that’s going to be stated instead of our commentary about the scripture, which can be really helpful, of course. But the word stands the test of time. So read it in such a way that is of utter importance, and I think that will keep us safeguarded.

One of the prayers that I pray in preparation for preaching is that I would speak the truth revealed in Jesus Christ. And if I do, rub that in deeply, Holy Spirit, into our hearts. But if I say anything that is less than reflective of what’s real and what’s true, may it be forgotten quickly like water off a duck’s back and just gone. That’s my ongoing prayer so that I as a gospel proclaimer can focus on the gospel himself, Jesus Christ, as it’s revealed in Scripture.

So that’s really helpful, Mike.

Let’s move on to the second pericope that we have for this month from the lectionary. It’s 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 27 and Ordinary Time, which is on November the 12. Mike, would you read it for us, please?

[00:24:35] Mike: Sure.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

[00:25:39] Anthony: Verse 13 says, “so that you may not grieve as others do, who have no hope.” For me, it’s just such a paradox to grieve and yet to do so in hope. And I’ve heard it said that lament gives voice to what hurts while hope gives voice to what heals.

How is this even possible that we can grieve, but do so in hope? What is the apostle leading us to?

[00:26:02] Mike: The passage is about death, and it’s about resurrection and eternal life with the Lord. The Bible tells us that death is an enemy. But it is an enemy that Jesus Christ defeated on our behalf, and we will share in that victory when we rise to meet him in the air. But even though death has been defeated, it still happens, and it is still an enemy. It takes loved ones away and that hurts. It breaks relationships and that hurts.

It is reasonable for people to mourn the loss of something good. It is reasonable to mourn the breaking of something that God created to be good, to break the relationships that are actually supposed to be reflections of the relationships that the Father, Son, and Spirit have always had, the relationships that they want us to share in.

It’s appropriate to grieve these things. Even when we know that the loss is not permanent. We have hope, or the better word is faith, that these good things will be restored through the work of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

We live in a time between the first and second coming of Christ. The last days have begun, but they have not yet been brought to completion. There are lots of things in this world that aren’t going the way they’re supposed to. And there are lots of things to grieve, not just death, and for all of them, we have hope in Jesus Christ. Everything will be set right.

We do not need to despair, no matter whether we are concerned about the death of a loved one, or the destruction of the environment, or politics, or the economy, or the threat of war. We can grieve that such things may happen, lament, but we also know that this is not the end of the story. The story does have a happy ending, and it comes at the hand of someone who was crucified and killed for our salvation. He lives again, and he will cause us to live again, too, in a much better world. We have sorrow, yes, but we also have confidence in Christ.

We see that many of the world’s problems have selfishness at their root, and we see that the only path toward world peace is that people will consider others as more important than themselves. And we see that the one person who actually lived that way consistently was killed for it and yet raised back to life. And it’s the person who’s been there and done that, who also promises to do it again.

He will return and make it right, and we can have confidence in that.

[00:28:56] Anthony: Amen and amen. The scripture exhorts us to encourage one another with the words found in the pericope, but maybe a better way of saying that, to encourage one another with the reality that’s being revealed in this passage. And you’ve already done so, Mike. But is there anything else? Any meat left on the bone, so to speak, of ways you can encourage our audience based on what you find here?

[00:29:19] Mike: Yeah, good wins in the end. Yeah. What could be better than that?

Yes, there is something better than that. It is mentioned in the text. We will be with the Lord forever. The more we realize how good God is, how much Jesus loves us, the more we will rejoice that we will be with him.

We can rest in complete safety, security, comfort—everything we need. That’s the good life, not just in physical circumstances, but in the relationships that we’ll have. There’ll be no more death, no more disruptions, no more doubts, no more disappointments.

Karl Barth said that God does not want to be God without us. He chooses to be with us. He wants to live with us, and that is incredibly astonishing, if we know what we’re really like. Why would God want to live with feeble, infallible creatures, such as ourselves? Just to know that he is the Creator, and he has created beings like ourselves to be his eternal companions—that’s just astounding. We are eagerly desired. We are the love of his life, the apple of his eye, the pearl of great price for which he sold everything he had so he can have us too.

When we know that we are loved that much, we will eagerly look forward to his coming. We will know that all our sacrifices are not in vain. We will know that the sufferings are not worth being compared with the good things that God will give us in Christ. The one who did not spare his own son, will he not give us all good things that we will ever need? Will he not share his Spirit with us without limits? Will we not be loved without end?

Nothing can separate us from his love. That’s what I see especially encouraging in this text: “we will be with the Lord forever.”

[00:31:31] Anthony: I can remember several years ago, Mike, reading a book from Skye Jethani called With. And it really did flip the script in my own mind about my perspective of what I do in partnership with God.

Because often we think about doing things for God, which we do. But I had this mindset that I was a servant for the lord, which I am, but it’s not just that. I’m his friend, and the Lord wants to be with me. And it’s like you said, how is that so Lord? I know me. Who wants to be with me for eternity? And yet that tells us more about a God who chooses rather than our chosen-ness.

He’s a choosing God who loves to be with us and that was really good encouragement. Thank you for that.

Our third pericope of the month is 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 29 in Ordinary Time, which is November the 19.

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; 5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So, then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober, 7 for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober and put on the breastplate of faith and love and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

It seems to me, Mike, that Paul is insisting that knowing the date of Christ’s coming is not the best way to prepare for his appearance. Rather he points us to being awake and sober as the way to be ready. So, help us understand. What does that mean in reality to be awake and sober?

[00:34:11] Mike: It means lay off the liquor, don’t get drunk. It means don’t ever go to sleep. Oh, wait a minute. Sleep seems to be necessary, doesn’t it? Maybe it doesn’t mean that.

It seems that Paul is using these words as metaphors, as figures of speech. And we have to figure out where the key similarity is.

There are several metaphors in the passage — the thief, the knight, labor pains, children, daylight, breastplate, helmet. Paul is using words that usually refer to physical things, but he is using them to refer to something spiritual. He is saying that the day of the Lord will come at some unexpected time, but we do not need to be caught unprepared.

If our spiritual life is right, we might be surprised at the timing of it all, but we won’t suffer any loss. The thief, metaphorically speaking, won’t be able to take anything away from us. It will be a time of rejoicing, not a time of fear.

So, what might it mean for us to be asleep? It would mean being unaware, not knowing what’s going on. For example, if we are on a long road trip and someone else is driving while we’re sleeping, and suddenly we are awakened by the screeching of brakes, a loud sound, the car shaking, the seatbelt tightens, and we think the worst. But if we had been awake and watching, then we would have known it was just a bad pothole in the road.

Paul was saying we don’t need to be unaware, that we know the day of the Lord is coming. We don’t know when or exactly what’s going to happen that day, but we know it’s coming, so when it does, we’re better able to figure out what’s going on. We won’t panic. Being awake means that we know what’s going on. We can see it coming.

Now, what might it mean to be spiritually drunk? It means not thinking straight. It means slow reactions. It means lacking self-control. The book of Revelation talks about a woman who was drunk with the blood of the saints. She was intoxicated because she had such power over them. She thinks she’s going to win the war, and she’s so excited about it that she doesn’t see reality. Power is intoxicating. People get so thrilled with their own abilities that they are blind to their problems.

People can be spiritually drunk because they are so thrilled with success in one area that they don’t see where they fall short. That happens to some church leaders who are so successful in building a big church or inspiring complete loyalty from their followers that they become unaware of their weaknesses. People keep telling them how wonderful they are, and after a while they start to believe it.

But it’s not just the leaders who can become drunk. Revelation also talks about people who are drunk because of their illicit relationship with the woman. They are so focused on the temporary pleasures they are getting, that they’re unable to see where that way of life really goes. They’re getting something they want. But they don’t realize that they’re missing out on something else that they need. They are victims of bad leadership—many of us have had experience with that sort of thing, but even so they are drunk. Their thinking is distorted.

Paul wants us to be sober, to think clearly, to be aware of our weakness, to be aware of our need for the Holy Spirit to guide us, give us strength. We do not say, ah, I’ve got it all figured out, my theology is perfect, I know every detail of what is right and what is wrong.

And, on the other hand, we do not want to think that we are worthless, never getting anything right. Thinking soberly means to know that Christ is with us, the Spirit is with us. And church history shows that he uses fallible people, but because that’s the only option in this age. God knows how to use fallible people.

Now, the text gives us a couple of ways that we should be sober. We should put on the breastplate of faith and a helmet of hope. That will protect our vital parts. It will protect our thoughts and emotions. We will not put our hope in the wrong things. We won’t put our faith in the wrong things. We’ll let the Word of God inform us of where our faith and hope need to be.

Sobriety means knowing that we are children of God. And our identity in him is a word of exhortation to do right, as well as a word of comfort when we fail. And I might add, it’s hard to get the right balance when we are drunk, when we are filled with the wrong kind of spirits.

[00:39:21] Anthony: And put the exclamation point on it right there, Mike. I hear you loud and clear.

It says in verse 9 that God has not destined us for wrath, but salvation through our Lord. And that seems to me to be rather good news, don’t you think? Tell us more about it.

[00:39:42] Mike: Anthony, yeah, that is good news. And salvation is much more than an escape from punishment. The word “salvation” originally meant a rescue from something. People can be saved from an illness, or saved from a shipwreck, and they are restored to the way they were before.

But in the New Testament, the word came to involve much more than a rescue from some physical problem. It came to mean a rescue from spiritual dangers, including sin and death, and feeling alienated from God. And the result is much more than what we had before. Even looking at the history of humanity as a whole, what we get with Christ is much better than what the first humans had before sin entered the picture. The first humans were capable of sinning and dying. But after the resurrection, we will not be capable of either one.

Maybe we might be capable of sinning if we wanted to, but the real point of salvation is that we won’t ever want to sin. We are rescued from the desire to sin, and that, in itself, is very good news. It’s one of the astonishing things about the salvation we are given in Christ.

We struggle with sin throughout life. Some say we sin every day of our lives, and then in the resurrection, in the blink of an eye, at the snap of a finger, we won’t ever sin again. It’s like a cacophony of powerful noise suddenly comes to a stop. And there is silence.

Actually, there’s not silence, there is beautiful music instead. We don’t just come to a point of inactivity, of breathless awe at the majesty and wonder of God. There may be some of that, but there may be praise as well. Maybe faint at first, but soon rising to this triumphant song that will make the Hallelujah chorus seem to be a weak imitation.

I’m speaking in metaphors here because I really don’t have the language to describe the joys and beauties of a spiritual life. And the Bible says that the love of God is beyond our ability to understand. His joy is beyond our ability to put into words. And his peace is beyond our comprehension.

Paul writes that God didn’t plan for us to experience wrath. He plans for us to experience salvation. Paul doesn’t say much about what’s involved in that wrath, but he points us instead to the better outcome. We need to be concerned, not just with what we’re saved from, but also what we’re saved for. And we can talk about the benefits of salvation in this life, as well as in the next. In this life, we’re given love, joy, peace, faith, meekness, kindness, gentleness, and goodness.

But when push comes to shove, as it does for many Christians in other nations, who are persecuted for their belief in Christ, then we have to focus on the benefits in the next life. We want a faith that is willing to accept hardship in this life, or even a painful death, if that’s the cost of being loyal to the Messiah who suffered and died for us. What kind of person are we if we are willing to betray the one who loves us most just in exchange for a few sad years in a horribly corrupt world?

You asked for good news. That may not seem like good news, but it is part of the gospel that Jesus preached and the gospel that Paul preached and the gospel that both of them lived. The good news of the gospel is made more evident. When we compare it with the ungodly things being done around us. This is all the more reason we need to look beyond this life, beyond the blessings we might have in this life, and look to the future life with Christ, which is far better.

Paul says in Romans, sufferings of this life are not worth to be compared with the glories of the future life. That’s true of our blessings too. They are just trinkets in comparison to the spiritual riches that we will enjoy. And quality and in quantity, the good times will never end. It’s a billion trillion quadrillion years of blessings. We can’t even begin to measure. It’s good, good, good, nothing but good!

And the best part is that we’ll be with Father, Son, and Spirit. He wants to be with us. A love that we can only begin to imagine will be with us. As Paul says, if we’re thinking clearly, then we’ll put faith and love on our heart, hope on our head, and encourage one another as indeed you are already doing.

[00:44:37] Anthony: Hallelujah. From glory to glory. Talking about wrath, it’s not a subject that people often want to hear in their worship gatherings on Sunday, but it’s an important part of the gospel story. And I recall this from George Hunsinger—and I think I pulled this from one of his lectures—but he said, “The wrath of God is a very important part of the gospel, but it’s not split off from his love. It’s the form that God’s love takes. It’s the wrath of God’s love when God’s love is resisted, and God’s wrath overcomes all forms of resistance. This is what God is doing in Jesus Christ.”

Hallelujah. Praise him.

Our final pericope of the month is Matthew 25:31-46. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the reign of Christ Sunday on November 26.

Mike, do us the honors, please.

[00:45:33] Mike:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You who are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life.”

[00:47:46] Anthony: Okay. There’s a lot to unpack here, Mike, and this is a Reign of Christ Sunday. Some call it Christ the King Sunday.

And let’s start there. People often raise arguments about the sheep and the goats and eternal punishment, and we’ll get to that soon enough, but the passage starts with the Son of Man on his rightful throne as the king of his kingdom. How does that reality shape the rest of the passage?

[00:48:13] Mike: Perhaps the most important aspect of this is that the Son of Man is not only the king, but he’s also the judge. In our democracies, we’re used to a separation of powers that the judiciary has some independence from the executive power, and generally the highest court in the land is actually a committee to prevent any one person there from having too much power. But the ancient world was ruled by what we today might call dictators.

They had power over all branches of the government, and it was just assumed that a king was also a judge. Although he would delegate smaller decisions to his subordinates, he had the ultimate authority to make all judicial decisions, whether it was to sentence people to death, to free them, to fine them, to give them victory in a civil case over their neighbor.

When people in the first century heard the word “king,” they would understand that kind of power went along with it. Now here, the Son of Man is the king. It’s Jesus, the representative of all humanity. We call him Lord, as well as Savior, because he has the authority to tell us what to do. But that authority is always used with perfect wisdom, perfect compassion, and perfect love. We worship him not just because he has overwhelming power, but because he is overwhelmingly good.

Now the passage starts off like a simple prediction—here’s what’s going to happen. But it quickly turns into a parable about sheep and goats. A parable is the best way to describe what’s going to happen. When Jesus returns in authority, what will it be like? How will he judge his people? What criteria will he use? It’s going to be like this.

One thing that caught my attention on this reading was the phrase “inherit the kingdom.” People in the first century knew what that phrase meant. Today, we might say, if you inherit a mansion, it’s not just that you can live there for a while. No, it means that you own it. And similarly, in the ancient world, if you inherit a kingdom, it’s yours.

When King Herod died, for example, his will said that his sons were to inherit his kingdom. The Roman government had the final say on that, but the idea of inheriting a kingdom was part of the way the ancient world operated. The king’s son would inherit his kingdom, or sometimes they’d split the kingdom so that more than one of his children could inherit a kingdom.

So, when the Son of Man tells people to inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, It’s not just a matter of living in God’s kingdom, it’s also a matter of having our own kingdom, part of God’s empire, we might call it.

In a different parable, Jesus talked about ruling five cities or ten cities. He is talking about a significant reward and a significant responsibility. Now, that may be a metaphor that Jesus is using examples from his own day of a fabulously extravagant reward. If Jesus were making a parable for modern times, he might talk about inheriting some multinational corporation, maybe the Walmart empire, or controlling stock in Microsoft.

The point is that it’s an exceedingly large inheritance, a reward far out of proportion to what ordinary people imagine is possible. As king of all kings and as judge, he can be extravagantly generous with people.

[00:51:59] Anthony: Mike, how do you hermeneutically preach about the sheep and goats in verse 32 and eternal punishment that we read about in verse 46?

What say you?

[00:52:10] Mike: It goes back to the two questions I mentioned earlier. What’s the main point? And how did the author want the readers to respond? Is there something in there that we need to learn? Or is it telling us about something we need to do? Knowing and doing can rarely be completely separated, but there is often an emphasis on one or the other.

For example, a passage might tell us that God is great and good, completely trustworthy. That’s something to know. And we might respond to that knowledge with worship, faith, and trust. The knowledge and action are connected, but I’d say that the emphasis is on the knowledge. God isn’t interested in fake worship, in us going through the motions, even when we don’t believe it. The emphasis, in this case, would seem to be on what we know and believe.

A different example is the Great Commission: Go into all the world, make disciples, baptize, and teach. That’s something to know, yes, but the emphasis is on that we ought to be doing something.

Here in Matthew 25, where is the emphasis? I don’t think it’s in knowing the typical habits of sheep or goats. They provide the setting for the introduction of the parable, but there is no further development of that particular detail. And similarly, there is no further development of the angels who come with Christ at his return.

What about the difference between right and left? In the ancient world, is good and left is bad, and the parable uses that as part of its setting, but it’s not developing that in either way. It’s not telling us that our left hands are bad or anything like that. It’s just part of the framework of the story.

The main part of the story, the part that seems to be emphasized, in this case by repetition, is found in the idea, I was in need and, you either helped me or you didn’t help me. In the story, the people ask, when did we see you in need? When did we help or not help?

Now, this is not some script that we all have to act out on the day of judgment. After all, if we know we are supposed to ask that question, then we also know what the answer is. And it’s just play acting. It’s pretending. The story includes this dialogue mainly as an opportunity to repeat the words, to give emphasis to the key concept: I was in need, and some people helped me, and others didn’t.

The point of the story is that we need to be helping the hungry, helping the thirsty, helping the stranger, helping people who need clothes, who are sick, who are in prison. That’s something that Jesus will be judging on. Perhaps I should say he’s already judging us on. That’s something that he cares about.

It’s only one of many things that he cares about. The parable doesn’t intend to list all the points of judgment. It’s just making one point, one illustration. It’s not an encyclopedia of ethics or faith or worship.

Life is much more complex than a simple story can picture. But the illustration here does tell us something that Jesus wants his people to be doing, and that is helping others even without any motive of reward.

Some people might want to make another point out of the story that Jesus is actually in all these needy people. In one sense that’s true, but that actually weakens the point of the parable. The point is not that we should help people because we know that Jesus is in them. Or rather, it’s that we should help people even when we do not know that Jesus is in them. That gets repeated in the parable, and we shouldn’t try to undermine that part of it.

I’ve already commented about the reward mentioned in the parable and that we’ll inherit a kingdom. As a side point, it’s interesting to note that this kingdom has been prepared for us from the very beginning. It’s been part of God’s plan all along. It’s even tied into one of the first things that we learn in the Bible, that humans are made in the image of God, and we’re supposed to rule over other aspects of his creation. God wants to give us authority, but not until we can be trusted with that authority, not until we’re going to rule in the good way that God would.

You specifically asked about the penalty part of the parable. The people who were sorted out on the left will go into eternal fire and eternal punishment. What’s that about?

What should you do if you’re preaching this passage? It goes back to our initial questions: What’s the main point, and what’s our response? The main point is that we should be helping people who need help, even if we don’t see Jesus in them. Where does eternal fire fit into that picture? It doesn’t, really. It was not the main point.

Jesus did not tell this parable so his disciples would know more about the details of the end time day of judgment. We are not to expect massive herds of people being moved around on the terrain of the new world. He did not tell a parable so that we’d know more about what the future reward will be like.

It’s good, yes, but we really don’t know many details. That wasn’t the main point. And in the same way, the punishment for not doing this wasn’t his main point either. It’s just part of the framework of the parable.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus talked about a conversation between the rich man and Hades, and the poor man and Abraham’s bosom. Jesus is not trying to teach us that such conversations will occur, or even if they’re possible. Instead, Jesus is using a common belief of the day as part of the scenery of the parable, without attempting to either endorse or refute the common belief.

Similarly, in another parable, a man who owed a debt was thrown into prison to be tortured until he could pay. But the purpose of the parable is not to tell us about the nature of the end time punishment. That’s simply part of the framework of the parable using imagery that was borrowed from the customs and beliefs of his time period.

In some places, Jesus talks as if the end time punishment is fire. In other places, it’s outer darkness. It’s difficult to put all these together into a sensible picture for the simple reason, I think, that they are not supposed to be put together into a sensible picture. Jesus is just using ideas that circulated in his culture and he is not endorsing them or trying to set them straight. He never attempts to settle our curiosity about what the details will be like.

But I think it’s fair to generalize the overall picture by saying that if we make certain choices in life contrary to what Jesus wants, then we are going to regret it. Jesus says we should make every effort to avoid that.

If we are preaching this passage, what should we do with it? Just read it and move on.

It’s not what the parable is really about. Jesus saw no need to elaborate on it. And we don’t need to either. Jesus saw no need to refute the idea or clarify it, so we don’t have to either. So, I recommend that we ignore it.

Now, if we are writing a commentary or conducting a series of Bible studies about the parables of Jesus, then we ought to deal with it in an excursus or as a side point. If we are presenting a class about the future, then we should deal with it. But in a sermon, it’s just too much of a can of worms to deal with it well. The sermon gets dominated by a side point. And the main point is pushed to the side.

It reminds me of a class I took a long time ago on the book of Galatians. There was a lot in the book that the teacher didn’t like. So, his class was mostly that Galatians doesn’t mean this, and it doesn’t mean that. And he never got around to telling us what it actually does mean.

That’s what’s likely to happen if we try to deal with the topic of eternal punishment when we really ought to be spending our time trying to get people to respond to the parable in a way that Jesus wanted his people to respond to the parable. We’re supposed to help the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, give clothes to the naked. And so forth.

Now, it’s also true that we should give hope to the hopeless, give the gospel to those who haven’t heard it, and teach people who don’t know very much about Jesus. Those are true, but they are not the point of this particular parable.

And if we preach those other things too much, it will come at the expense of the main point of this parable, which is about helping people with physical needs eve when we don’t know that Jesus is there. Doing good to others has simply become so much a part of us that we really aren’t keeping score.

We’re not doing this to earn future rewards, but simply because it’s a good thing to do. We love these needy people as we love ourselves.

[01:01:37] Anthony: And I think it’s helpful, Mike, in reading this passage Christologically to consider what God has already accomplished for us in Jesus Christ, that he found us thirsty and was living waters for us. He found us hungry, and he gives us himself in the cup and the bread, that he clothed us, that all good things come from above.

So in that way instead of judging others as the least of these, we realize we were the least of these, right? And God found us in Jesus Christ in the far country. Hallelujah praise him!

You know, sometimes in the past, Mike, I’ve heard this passage preached as separation, judgment, and punishment alone, and of course, you’ve already dealt with this, but in terms of closing out our commentary on this passage, what other pieces of good news can we find or glean that maybe we haven’t touched on yet?

Anything else?

[01:02:35] Mike: Is there good news in this? Does it just lay a burden on us? So, we got to do this, we got to do that. If you think that being kind to other people is an unpleasant burden, then maybe there’s no good news here for you because that’s really what we ought to do, or at least it’s one of the many things we ought to do.

But the good news here is that Jesus Christ transforms people from self-centered to other centered, from stingy to generous, from callous to caring. People do good to others without keeping score, without expecting anything in it for themselves. And when that happens, the world is a better place. That’s good news.

And as other passages in the New Testament tell us, it happens because Jesus lives in us. The Spirit lives in us, changing us from the inside out. That’s good news, even for the people who don’t believe it.

Of course, there’s also good news in the future, as the passages in 1 Thessalonians and here in Matthew point out. The good works that we do now are good, but they’re just a cup of cool water compared with the oceans of blessings that God will give us in the future. What we do now is just a child’s crayon drawing compared to the IMAX theater version that we will enjoy in the future.

[01:04:09] Anthony: IMAX. I did not expect that reference in our conversation, Mike. Thanks for that metaphor. That’s pretty vivid.

And you mentioned that as we serve others, even when we don’t know Jesus is present, he is. And it reminds me we are not a delivery service hired by Jesus to take him to our neighbors. But we are witnesses to Christ already at work in the neighborhood. So, let’s be in the neighborhood, being a blessing to others as we have been blessed ourselves.

Mike, thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. I’ve enjoyed our conversation. I’m so thankful for you and the call to ministry God has on your life.

And I want to take a moment to thank the people that make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio and David McKinnon, our podcast producers, as well as my beloved wife, Elizabeth, who does the transcription. So, you can read every good word that Mike has spoken here today.

Mike, it is our tradition here at Gospel Reverb to end with prayer. So, if you would do the honor of praying for and with our people, I’d be so appreciative.

[01:05:11] Mike: Thanks, Anthony, for inviting me and giving me the opportunity. Let’s pray.

Father, thank you for Scripture, for things that you inspired people to write for our encouragement and instruction.

Thank you for giving us glimpses into the glory that you want to share with us, and the joy of being chosen by you for a life of never-ending joy and love in your presence. Thank you for Jesus who gave up his phenomenal riches and came to us even though he knew we would kill him. Thank you for raising us him up and for including us in his life.

Thank you for the people who make the podcast, for the people who listen because they want to be better at handling the words of God. We ask the Spirit to encourage them in what they do, in the sacrifices they make to serve others, in the joy they have in sharing good news with the people they love.

Some of our listeners are seriously ill, and yet they serve anyway. Some of them battle with depression, even as they intellectually know that the news is incredibly good. Help each of them day by day. Help us all when we are spiritually hungry, spiritually thirsty, spiritually naked, feeling sick, and all alone. We all need help, and you are the help that we need.

And thank you for the intercession of the Spirit and the Son on our behalf. Amen.

[01:06:46] Anthony: Amen.

The post Reign of Christ w/ Dr. Michael Morrison first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Dear Gospel Reverb listeners,We appreciate you! Due to circumstances beyond our control, the upcoming Gospel Reverb episode is delayed and will drop on September 15th. Please check back then to hear insightful Christ-centered commentary on lectionary-based Bible passages.If you get a chance to rate and review the show, that helps a lot. And invite your fellow preachers and Bible lovers to join us!Follow us on Spotify, Google Podcast, and Apple Podcast....

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In this episode of Gospel Reverb, join Anthony Mullins as he engages in an enlightening conversation with Dr. Geordie Ziegler.

Geordie recently became a Spiritual Formation Missionary for Imago Christi after spending 30 years in missions and pastoral ministry. Imago Christi is a community helping people experience the transforming rhythms of our Triune God through abiding, gathering, and missions. You can find more information about Imago Christi at their website www.imagochristi.org. Geordie is a theologian and author of Trinitarian Grace and Participation: An Entrance Into the Theology of Thomas F. Torrance. He earned a Ph.D. in Trinitarian Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

September 3 — Proper 17 of Ordinary Time Romans 12:9-21, “The Art of Neighboring”

September 10 — Proper 18 of Ordinary Time Romans 13:8-14, “Obligations of Love”

September 17 — Proper 19 of Ordinary Time Romans 14:1-12, “Legalism and Liberty”

September 24 — Proper 20 of Ordinary Time Philippians 1:21-30, “Live Worthy of the Gospel”

*Note: The transcript is coming soon!

If you get a chance to rate and review the show, that helps a lot. And invite your fellow preachers and Bible lovers to join us!

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His Mercy is More w/ Jeremy Begbie Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. […] The post His Mercy Is More w/ Jeremy Begbie first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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In Step with the Spirit w/ Gavin Henderson

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it brings me joy to welcome our guest, Gavin Henderson. Gavin is the superintendent of churches and pastors in Europe for Grace Communion International. He lives in Great Britain with his wife, Sinead, and their three children, Nova, Digby, and Brogan.

Gavin, thank you for being with us. Welcome to the podcast, and since this is your first time joining us, we’d love to know a little bit about you, your story, and how you’re participating with the Lord these days.

[00:01:17] Gavin: Thank you, Anthony. It’s a real joy to join you on the podcast here. I’ve been working for Grace Communion International for a while now in Europe. And it’s a real joy to work with a number of small groups and churches that have across region.

And it’s such a joy to wake up each day and to know that you can participate in ministry. That’s not to say that there aren’t challenges, but it’s a real joy to have that purpose and sense of direction in my life. And I’ve been a Christian for what seems like most of my life. But certainly, when I first felt the call to ministry quite a while ago now, it took me by surprise, and it’s such a joy to be involved in Christian ministry. And it’s a joy to be able to be a part of this podcast, so thanks, Anthony.

[00:02:10] Anthony: Oh, it’s my pleasure. I’m so glad you could join us.

And so, let’s do it. We’re here to talk about the scripture passages from the lectionary, and we have five pericopes this month.

Matthew 10:40-42, “Welcome Me”

Matthew 11:16-19, 25-30, “Real Rest”

Romans 8:1-1, “In Step With the Spirit”

Romans 8:12-25, “Adoption”

Romans 8:26-39, “God is For Us”

Hallelujah.

Let me read the first pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 10:40 – 42. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version.

It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 8 in Ordinary Time, which falls on July 2.

40 “Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person in the name of a righteous person will receive the reward of the righteous, 42 and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple—truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.”

Gavin, two words stand out to me in this passage: welcome and reward. They show up repeatedly, and I imagine it’s easy to reduce our teaching down “to do this, and you will receive that,” sort of a quid pro quo religion, right? What should we make of the relationality of these two words and actions?

[00:03:56] Gavin: Yeah, certainly when we read this passage of Scripture, those are two other words that really stand out. And it is easy to adopt that mindset or to take that approach when we’re seeking to preach on this passage of Scripture.

One of the things I would say, that welcome is, of course, a response. Whenever we think of welcome, it’s not that we’re initiating but rather we’re responding to something that has already happened. And in the case of the examples we see in this scripture, of course, you have the prophet who’s turning up. You have the righteous person who has arrived. And so, the welcoming there is a response.

But I think if you look at the context of this scripture as a whole, and preceding passage in Matthew 10, one of the things that really strikes you is that Jesus has been sending out his disciples. And so, this passage, when we understand it within the context of a sending out of the disciples is really encouragement for those of us who participate in sharing the good news. Because whenever we go out into the world to share the good news, I think it’s normal to have a fear about how people will receive us, how people will respond. And really what Jesus is saying in this passage is he’s encouraging us about how much God values our work and what we are doing in this.

It is really demonstrating the love that God has for his disciples. If you were to welcome a prophet, in the name of a prophet and you gave him welcome, then prophet’s reward is, he would share his insight. He would share what he came to say. Likewise, if a righteous person turns up and you welcome a righteous person, a righteous person will obviously respond positively to your welcome and you’ll receive a reward.

And so, the same is true when we go out to share the gospel message—that those who respond to the gospel message, God recognizes how they treat the disciples who go out and share the good news. And this is encouraging for us.

But I think this is really the kind focus of this passage and redefines how we think about welcome and reward. Because really this is encouraging us that when we go out and share the good news God blesses those who welcome the good news. We can take encouragement from that fact as we go out and share the gospel.

[00:06:42] Anthony: Yeah, I appreciate that perspective because it frames reward in terms of the here and now.

We talk about living in the inaugurated kingdom of God, the already, but not yet. And sometimes we can think of reward as the not yet. That’s something to come. But Jesus says that when we welcome someone, we welcome him. And isn’t that the reward in the here and now, that we experience something of Christ’s presence?

Jesus referred to little ones and I’ve heard a lot of sermons that sometimes make me a little cringed when I hear who those little ones actually are. What say you and what is a Christ-like response to Jesus’ words?

[00:07:25] Gavin: I think the word “little one,” certainly if you read in the commentaries, you can see a lot of debate about who is being referred to.

And I think in many ways, it’s referring to those who are sometimes held in the least estimation by society. I think sadly, sometimes it’s even talking about those held in the least estimation by the church. Sadly, even in the church, there are people who aren’t always valued in the way that they should.

And I think this passage challenges us in how we look at others and how we respond to others in their faith. It’s not a judgment on people’s faith. Quite the contrary. I think what it’s doing is it’s challenging us in how we respond to people—even the people that aren’t held in high estimation by others around them.

And one of the things that’s a kind of standout is I think—John Calvin, when he was speaking on this verse in his commentary, he talks about how if you actually think about what is said in this verse: whoever gives even a cup of cold water. Really a cup of cold water is the very kind of “meanest office of kindness”—that’s how Calvin refers to it—that you can offer to somebody. You’re not even boiling the water to make a cup of tea. You’re not cooking anything, really. You’re just giving them the very basics that they need.

But even if those very basics are given, God doesn’t forget even the smallest of kindness that are shown to what would seemingly be, by society and others, as the very least of his disciples. And so really this is, I think, quite encouraging for us because I think for many of us, when we engage, we don’t necessarily feel that we are these bastions of the faith that go out there.

Often, we find and have a personal view of ourselves that’s a lot more modest as Christians. And this verse is just encouraging us that God doesn’t overlook even the smallest of kindnesses that is done to those who are his disciples, those who choose to follow Jesus Christ.

I think there’s a number of challenges for us, a number of ways that it encourages us to have a Christ-like response to Jesus’ word, but really it makes us consider our views of other people, how we view them, and how we respond to them as well.

[00:10:11] Anthony: That’s well said. And I think one of the things that’s helped me as I reflect on this particular scripture through the years is to recognize that sometimes I’m the little one.

It is a joy to give the basics, as you said Calvin referred, to someone in need, but sometimes I’m the one in need. And I think that gives us a perspective of humility, even as we go out to serve others. Thank you for that.

Let’s move on to our next passage of the month. It’s Matthew 11:16 – 19 and 25 – 30. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 9 in Ordinary Time, which is July 9. Gavin, would you read it for us please?

[00:10:52] Gavin: Yes, sure.

19 “But to what will I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to one another, 17 ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.’ 18 “For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon’; 19 the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

At that time Jesus said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them to infants; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

[00:12:08] Anthony: Gavin, if you were preaching this pericope to your congregation, what would be your focus?

[00:12:15] Gavin: I think there are different sections of this passage that you can focus on, but there’s a section at the beginning that really resonates with me. And certainly, part of the reason it resonates is because I really like the language that’s used. But also, because initially, I struggled when I read this passage to understand exactly how it fitted in with the rest of the scriptures.

It’s in verse 17 when Jesus said, “We played the flute for you, and you did not dance. We wailed and you did not mourn.” This passage of scripture reminds me a lot of my experience with my children.

I have three children who are all under 10. And inevitably what happens is the children—they enjoy imaginative play. And so, all three of them are playing together, and then sooner or later one of them will get upset because the others aren’t letting them play the game that they want to play. So, whatever the imaginary game is at the time, one of them will come through and say, the other is not playing it right.

And this is really what is being talked about in this passage. And I think it really brings something of value that we can use when we’re preaching. Because for children often, we want to play the game that we want to play, and if others aren’t playing it the way we want we get upset with them.

We want to be in control. We want to have a say about what others do. And this is the context of what Jesus is saying that the children are sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, “We played the flute, and you did not play along. You did not dance.”

And if we think of the larger context of what is being said here, Jesus is in a section where he’s been speaking about John the Baptist. And in verse 18 when he talks about how John the Baptist came and he didn’t eat, and he didn’t drink. And yet the response people said he was a demon. And then you have Jesus who comes, and he does eat, and he does drink, and they say he’s a glutton and a drunkard.

And it’s basically, I think a really valuable thing that we can learn about the expectations that we have when it comes to religion, when it comes to church, when it comes to so many of the things. These people came up with reasons and excuses about why they could disregard what John the Baptist said and what Jesus said, even though those reasons were contradictory. They wanted to be able to control the game, so to speak. They wanted to have control of the narrative.

And I think we can really reflect on this verse and think, how do we respond to the gospel message of Jesus Christ? Do we look for reasons to reject what Jesus says? Do we look for reasons when we read a verse, and think, ah, yes, brother, that verse, that section of that verse doesn’t apply to me because of this or because of that? Or do we instead come with hearts that really desire to take scripture and apply it to our lives?

Do we try and learn everything that we can from a passage of scripture and see how we can apply it in a practical sense to our lives even if—or even maybe particularly, if what is said in scripture perhaps causes us some difficulty? If we find it difficult, the words that Jesus is speaking to us, those are really the times I think when we need to pay the most attention. We can’t just try and define Christianity, the religion, that we want.

Instead, we always need to go back to what Jesus actually says. We need to be receptive to the gospel message as opposed to trying to define what the gospel message says and then get the Bible to fit in with what we believe.

[00:16:17] Anthony: You mentioned how we look at Scripture. Obviously, we’re coming to find out who God is revealed in Jesus Christ, but also, what is this saying to me? What’s the response in the power of the Spirit?

Thinking of that practical application right now, Gavin, there’s quite a few people in my life who feel weary, heavy. And Jesus said in this passage, come to me all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. The world is weary, is it not?

And it seems like the world is crying out for real rest. Tell us about it.

[00:17:04] Gavin: Absolutely. I think as we look around society today both in the UK and the US, wherever you are in the world, I think life is difficult and I think many of us do feel that we are carrying burdens that are beyond us in many ways.

And this is such a beautiful passage of scripture because so many of us are crying out for rest. But I think one of the beautiful things that Jesus is saying in this passage is when it comes to our own lives so often it’s a struggle to do what we think is right.

We carry all these burdens that often we place upon us or others place on us. And what Jesus is saying is we can rely on him; we can trust in him.

I’m really into food. I enjoy cooking. I enjoy eating and I enjoy reading cookbooks and watching programs on cookery. And in some ways this verse reminds me of something that you find in high-end restaurants. So many high-end restaurants have what they call a test kitchen. And one of the beauties of a test kitchen is you can go out and there’s no pressure on you. But instead, there’s freedom to try without the fear of failure that is so common in society today.

If you work in a restaurant, the reality is you have to follow a recipe every day, and you have to make sure that the people who are eating get the very best of what you can do. But the reality is that’s very trying. It’s all this pressure and this burden on you to try and get everything right.

In a test kitchen, instead that pressure is removed. And instead, there’s freedom to try and create the best food that you can possibly create without the same fear of failure. And often you have the guidance of an experienced master chef who helps you to understand what you are doing.

And in some ways, this is what this verse really speaks to me about. That Jesus is saying that we can take away the pressure of trying to get everything right ourselves. But instead, what we can do is just bring everything to Jesus, and he takes the pressure from us. And we have the freedom to be the people that God designed us to be. And he is there, we are yoked to him. But he’s guiding us so that we can really respond to him and what he’s doing to be the very best of ourselves.

It is really taking away the pressure of trying to get everything right through our own strength. Instead, it’s relying on Jesus Christ’s strength and following where he is leading us. And in following where he’s leading us, we have true freedom. We’re able to really try and be righteous without the fear of failure, without that kind of restriction that is the reality that we face in this world. And I think this is a freedom that the world needs. But it’s also a rest.

It’s a rest from relying on our own righteousness, our own works, and instead trusting and relying on Jesus Christ.

[00:20:42] Anthony: Amen. One thing I didn’t expect to happen during that conversation was for me to get hungry. So, what time do I come over for dinner, Gavin, now that I know what your passion is? That’s good to know.

Let’s move on to our next passage of the month. It’s Romans 8:1-11. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 10 in Ordinary Time, which is July the 16th.

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed, it cannot, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, then the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.

If God the Father didn’t send Jesus into the world to condemn people, I’m guessing he’s not sending us as his ambassadors to condemn people. Tell us why “no condemnation” is ridiculously good news.

[00:22:49] Gavin: It really is, Anthony. It really is such ridiculously good news. And the reality of sin is that we would all be condemned. And so often we have a kind of narrow view of sin or misunderstand sin in many ways. Because sin isn’t just a problem that we have as individuals, but we live in a world that’s corrupted by sin.

And sin isn’t the problem, the full sense of the problem, in that when we try and live an ethical life, it’s not just the bad column we have, but we are called to do good works. And when we miss opportunities to do good works, then that creates a challenge for us as well.

But the whole concept of no condemnation is really moving to a completely different system, and it’s the system of grace. And it’s really this whole transformation in the way that we understand the world. It’s moving from looking where everything condemns us to life, to grace, to understanding that the world works in a different way.

And I think really to understand that it’s to understand who God is and how he can do this for us. Because so much of the way that the world works even today is an eye for an eye. This idea that when you make a mistake, you need to be punished, you need to be condemned for that mistake.

And part of the problem that we have as human beings is some of the mistakes we make, we just don’t have the power within us to restore. But of course, God does have the power to restore any mistake that we make. If somebody loses their eye, that’s beyond our power to do something about. But it’s not beyond God’s power.

God has the ability to restore things in a way that’s beyond what we can. And this is really how we move into that different system, that system of grace. And it’s why no condemnation is such good news, because it’s transformational to those who understand that they are not condemned.

And this is why, when you talked about this, Jesus isn’t sending us out into the world to condemn others because the reality is he’s taking us out of this system of condemnation completely. He’s moving us into this system of grace, and so we’re not sent out to condemn people.

Instead, we are sent out to show grace to people. It’s a completely different way of looking at life that we see. And this is what Paul was talking about in this passage. He’s talking about a different way of living that we have been given in Jesus Christ, how we now have the Spirit of life as opposed to the law of sin and death.

And of course, life comes from God. God is the one who gives us life. And this is why it’s such ridiculously good news, as you put it, no condemnation in Jesus Christ.

[00:26:17] Anthony: It is a different kind of system, isn’t it? We see in Father, Son, and Spirit, a restorative justice, not a retributive one.

And we do want people to pay, like you mentioned, and that even in the Psalms some of the cries to God is when are you going to smite these people that are after me? But thanks be to God that he does restore.

Help us to exegete verses 5-8. How do we rightly talk about living according to the Spirit? How do we know if we’re doing it?

[00:26:52] Gavin: As Christians we read passages like this in Romans 8, and obviously we want to be living according to the Spirit. And it can be sometimes challenging when we read Paul’s words, to understand how to put them in context in our lives.

And I think it’s important to understand a couple of things as we look through versus 5-9. As we look at these, this section of scripture, one of the things that I think we need to be clear on is Paul is not really contrasting the physical with the spiritual.

That’s not the contrast he’s talking about when he is talking about flesh. He’s talking about our sinful nature in many ways. It’s not saying that our physical bodies are the problem and that our spirit is not. That’s not the contrast, but rather it’s really reflecting how we choose to live our lives, what we choose to have as our focus and as our priorities.

And this is what he’s talking about when he’s encouraging us in this section and in many ways, I think, really what he’s describing in these verses is repentance. What he’s describing is a turning away from the ways of our previous life, the ways of our previous sinful nature, and a turning to God, to embracing what God is doing in our lives, what God is doing in the world, what we are choosing to focus upon.

There’s that beautiful hymn, “Turn your eyes upon Jesus, Look full in His wonderful face, And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, In the light of His glory and grace.”

And this is really what Paul is talking about here for us to no longer dwell on the previous things in our life. But instead to focus on the things of the Spirit, to set our minds on the things of the Spirit.

It’s important that we understand the now and not yet of this verse. Because sometimes as Christians we can struggle with that because both elements are clearly there. And Paul here is talking in this sense, we can’t take this as a now. The reality is that we do still struggle with sin. We still struggle with our sinful nature, and Paul isn’t ignoring the fact that we struggle with our sinful nature. But rather he’s encouraging us to also reflect on the not yet, reflect that there is going to be a time when sin is behind us.

And what we need to do now is to have this repentance, to have this turning towards God, turning towards the things of God, turning towards the things of the Spirit. And this is what he’s talking about in this passage. It’s repentance at its very heart.

When we talk about living according to the Spirit, it’s talking about a turning to God. It’s a talking about our priorities and choosing how we affect our priorities. And it’s really interesting that in the scientific world, there’s increasing evidence that what we choose to focus on actually affects the wiring of our brain itself. And here Paul in many ways was well ahead of the science, in this sense, in telling us that if we focus on the right things, if we focus on the work of the Spirit, then we will see the change that we want as Christians. We’ll see a life of repentance take place.

[00:30:47] Anthony: You made me think of a quote I read from Leslie Negan that we are shaped by what we attend to, and I think that’s what you were speaking to.

Let’s transition to the next passage, which is Romans 8:12-25. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 11 in Ordinary Time, which is July the 23rd.

Gavin, do us the honors, please.

[00:31:14] Gavin:

12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are obligated, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 For you did not receive a Spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our Spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we in fact suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. 18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God, 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its enslavement to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together as it suffers together the pains of labor, 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what one already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

[00:32:56] Anthony: The doctrine of justification gets quite a bit of attention in the commentaries on Romans and quite justifiably—pun intended. Hallelujah. Praise God that we are justified. But it seems to me little appears to be said about the doctrine of adoption. Why is our adoption as God’s children instrumental to our understanding of the gospel and our relationship with the triune God?

[00:33:25] Gavin: Thanks, Anthony. I think that’s a good point, and the way I like to view this is the doctrine of justification helps us understand what we are being saved from. But the doctrine of adoption helps us to understand what we are being saved for. Different sides of the same coin, so to speak.

But I think it is really important for us to understand that we have been saved for a purpose. And when we understand what that purpose is, it’s really exciting. And this is what the doctrine of adoption is about. And this is what Paul is talking about in this passage is that we are able to cry Abba Father because of what Jesus Christ has done.

It’s helpful to understand a little bit about the Roman system of adoption that was in place at the time of Paul’s writing because it can help us understand a little bit about the significance of adoption. Because in Roman culture, adoption was something that did take place and often it would be adults who would be adopted. It wasn’t normally children who were adopted, but rather adults.

So, you would have a wealthy person, or a person of power and they would adopt somebody to become their heirs. And often there would be some reason why that adoption was taking place. But this was a legal process that was recognized in the Roman world. Adults did become adopted and then become rightful heirs, in some cases, even above the blood family of the person involved.

And there were many famous examples of that. And while it was primarily men and adults, it wasn’t universally. So, there are cases of women being adopted and children being adopted as well. But it wasn’t adoption in the way that we often think of adoption in the modern sense, which is what we see in the world around us.

But I think one of the reasons it’s so significant here is, again, if we think of how this changes our relationship, but what is actually being said. When we understand the doctrine of adoption, when we understand what Paul is saying in this verse, is that we are children of God in Christ. We are heirs of God. We are joint heirs with Christ.

And when we understand who Jesus Christ is, that he is the Son of the Father, that he is the second person in the Trinity. It really is beyond our wildest imagination that we have been included in that relationship. We have been included in what Jesus Christ has in his relationship with the Father.

That we are his children to the point that we can cry out Abba Father. We can cry out to our Father in the most intimate terms. And when we do Paul describes that as the Holy Spirit in us bearing witness to the fact that we are children of God. And this is the purpose for which we were saved.

We weren’t just saved and then left to our own devices. No, we were saved so that we could be God’s children. We were saved so that we could be adopted and be coheirs with Christ. And that’s such a beautiful concept, but it also gives us this hope for the future when we understand that we haven’t just been saved from our sins.

As incredible as that fact is, in fact, God goes even further, and he includes us into his family. He makes us his children and that we are coheirs with Jesus Christ.

[00:37:57] Anthony: There’s a lot of groaning going on in this passage, Gavin. Help us to apprehend what Paul is writing for us in the latter half of the pericope.

[00:37:58] Gavin: There is quite a lot of groaning, and when you read through this, it is one of those words that stands out. I think verse 22 is a really helpful one for us to understand what Paul was talking about when he is talking about the groaning, because he says, we know that the whole of creation has been groaning together as it suffers together, the pains of labor.

And as we think about that, you think of a pregnant woman who is in incredible pain through much of the periods of labor, and they will be groaning and yelling out. But it’s a kind of preparation for what is to come and the joy of the child that is about to be born.

And I think it helps us to understand that what Paul is talking about in the groaning is there is a part of ourselves, there’s a part of creation all around us, that is longing for this time when sin will be no more, is longing for this time when everything will come to that fullness that has been promised to us in Jesus Christ.

I really think it’s talking about the longing that we have in us for a time when there will be no more sin, a time when we will have the new earth and the new heaven that Paul talks about elsewhere in Scripture. So, when he’s talking about the groaning in this passage it’s groaning in the sense of anticipation, but it’s also a recognition at this moment that the world that we live in is not the way that it should be. It is a world that is marred by pain, is marred by sin, but that the pain and the sin of this world is not the final word. Instead, it is something we are going through, the pain of labor we have as we look forward to that time when we will have the redemption of our bodies, as Paul puts it, while we wait for adoption.

So, it focuses us. Yes, we recognize the problems in the world around us, but it also clearly paints the picture of the hope that we have in the future. And that is the hope that we look for, that we wait for with patience.

[00:40:20] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word—that pain doesn’t get the final word. We know that Jesus Christ is the inerrant and infallible living Word of God, and he has the final word.

But it also gets me thinking, Gavin, how it would reframe pain that we experience on this side of the veil of heaven, to understand it as labor pain. That there is something more to come, new life that we will experience in its fullness.

Our final passage of the month is Romans 8:26 – 39. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 12 in Ordinary Time, which is July the 30.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with groanings too deep for words. 27 And God, who searches hearts, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

31 What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not withhold his own Son but gave him up for all of us, how will he not with him also give us everything else? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? It is Christ who died, or rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than victorious through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It’s probably unfair to only have a few moments, Gavin, to discuss this amazing passage. It’s a challenge to even know where to begin. So where would you like to begin, Gavin?

[00:43:21] Gavin: This is such a beautiful passage of Scripture. I mean, really this is. As you reflect on those words, you can almost get lost in them because this is Paul at his very best, I think, in this section in Scripture.

But if we go back to the start of our passage here, I think really what he’s saying is so encouraging for us as Christians, as disciples, as followers of Jesus Christ that we aren’t doing this alone. In everything that we do, God is with us. The Spirit helps us in our weakness.

And I think particularly for a lot of new believers this is a passage that is really helpful for them to understand that God isn’t asking them to rely on their own strength. And even when it comes to something which is as fundamental for Christians as praying, God helps us with our prayers. And sometimes for new believers, it can be really challenging when you are praying with other believers.

Some believers really have a gift for prayer, and when they pray, it is so uplifting and encouraging. And as a new believer, you can struggle because sometimes your prayer life is still developing. Sometimes you might even find it difficult to know where to begin in prayer. But what this verse is saying is just start.

Because the truth is the Spirit helps us. Often when we pray, our prayers are very selfish. They’re focused often on our immediate needs. And sometimes they go a little bit beyond that. But the reality is that every time we pray, the Holy Spirit is interceding with us and transforming our prayers as they’re presented to God.

And God knows our hearts. He knows the mind of the Spirit, and he knows what we need. And this is the God we worship. This is the God we praise. This is the God who loves us, that even when it comes to prayer, he is at work for us. He is helping us. And so, it means that we should never hesitate.

In our prayers we have nothing to fear about praying to God or that we make mistakes in our prayer, because inevitably we will sometimes say the wrong thing or sometimes, we don’t even know what to say. Sometimes we are confronted with difficult scenarios, and we don’t even know the right thing to pray for.

I’ve been [with] people who are very unwell and are at the point where it’s not clear what their future should be. What is the best thing for them at that stage in their life? And sometimes we just don’t even know what to pray in those circumstances. But the good news is the Holy Spirit is with us.

We don’t do anything by ourselves. God is with us. He is for us. And this is what this passage is saying.

Again, if we go back to that “now and not yet” concept, here God is saying his plans for us is more than we might think. He predestined every one of us to be conformed to the image of his Son. He predestined every one of us to be like Jesus and that’s an incredible thought! We can think in our own lives, how are we ever going to be remotely like Jesus? And yet here we’re told the Spirit helps us in our weakness, helps us to be conformed to the image of his Son, the image of Jesus Christ.

This is really encouraging news. And that’s certainly where I would begin on this passage because I think this is something that people new in the faith really need to hear and to understand that they do not engage in discipleship alone. God is with them at every stage through the process.

[00:47:46] Anthony: Yeah. I’ve often asked if the Holy Spirit is interceding on our behalf and Jesus is also interceding on our behalf at the right hand of the Father, which this passage points to, why bother to pray? If they are praying for us and they know the will of the Father.

But it’s relational, right? Just like with your own three children, Gavin, you probably have a pretty good idea of what their school life looks like, but you still want to know, to hear them talk about their experiences because it’s relational.

And I think that’s part of what conforms us to the image of the Son. In our time of just relating with God, in the Spirit, as they intercede on our behalf, that we come to know something of the mind of Christ, and we are formed by it. Hallelujah. Praise God.

I’m hard pressed to think of a better way to end our time together than worshiping the God who says nothing can separate us.

And I think he really means nothing, as he goes through this litany of list here from the apostle Paul. So, herald, this good news for us, Gavin.

[00:48:54] Gavin: Yeah, so this is just such a beautiful section of Scripture here—to think that there’s just nothing that can separate us from the love of God.

It’s such a powerful concept because the reality is that so often in our lives, we do feel separated. We do feel isolated from others. If you look around society today, loneliness is such a problem. People feel alone. People feel unloved. And you can see this throughout societies and in different cultures and different places around the world.

And yet the good news is nobody is unloved. God’s love for us is so much greater than we can imagine. His love was so great that he gave his own son Jesus Christ, so that all of us can have life, so that all of us can share in the inheritance that Jesus Christ has. This is the good news that we are called to.

The reality is that if we go through periods where we do feel separated, we need to return to this scripture. We need to remember the promise we have: there is nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ.

And then Paul goes on to really highlight that it’s absolutely nothing. Death itself cannot separate us from the love of God. So, nobody who has died is separated from the love of God. Nothing we can face in life can separate us from the love of God. There are no beings or powers out there that can separate us from God’s love. There’s no heights, no depth.

There’s nothing that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And so really this should be our identity as Christians. This should be the foundation that we rest upon—that we are loved by God with the love that we as humans will spend the rest of our lives slowly beginning to understand more and more of.

I don’t think there’ll ever be a stage where we as human beings fully understand the fullness of God’s love. But we will spend the rest of our lives, the rest of our rest of eternity, learning more and more the love that God has for us, the love that has been displayed for us in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

[00:51:30] Anthony: Hallelujah. That is some really good news.

I want to thank you, Gavin, for joining us here on Gospel Reverb. It’s been a blessing to have this conversation around something we’re both passionate about, and that is the written word of our Lord.

And I want to remind our listeners, Christ has descended deeper than any abyss you might find yourself falling into. He has likewise ascended higher than all things, and now carries with him his humanity in the presence of our Father. Therefore, Paul can say, if God is for us who can be against us? Hallelujah.

I want to thank Reuel Enerio, our podcast producer, who does such a great job, and also Elizabeth Mullins, my wife. I like her exceptionally, and she also does the transcription.

Gavin, your words are going to be remembered for a long time to come. Thank you for them. As is our tradition here on the podcast, we like to end in prayer. Gavin, would you please pray for us?

[00:52:34] Gavin: Sure.

Heavenly Father, what a joy it is to be able to spend time in Scripture to reflect on the words that you have given us, Lord. Words that testify to your Son, Jesus Christ, that testified to what Jesus Christ has done for us. And as we have looked at these words, Lord, one of the things that is so striking is the love that you have for us. Father, words don’t begin to describe that love.

We find ourselves struggling at the very limits of language as we try and articulate how great the love that you have for us is, Lord. But Father, we praise you. We thank you for what you have done for us in Jesus Christ. And Father, I pray for everybody who’s listening to this podcast, that you’ll inspire them, that you’ll encourage them, that you’ll help them to hear your words to them.

Lord, as they listen to this podcast, that you’ll encourage them to go out and to reclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, the good news of what Jesus Christ has done for us, that he has saved us from our sins. We no longer have to try and work out our own salvation. We no longer have to try and work out our own righteousness, but instead we just rest and trust in Jesus.

And through Jesus, we have been saved for a purpose. And that purpose is life with you, Lord. And Father, we thank you for the hope that you have given us. We thank you that as difficult as this world may be, as difficult as the challenges that we face on a daily basis in our lives, that we know we have an eternal future that is secure in Jesus Christ.

Father, we ask that you help us to rest in that good news, to rest in that hope. And Father, let us turn our eyes squarely on your Son, Jesus Christ. Let us joyfully move towards him in every way that we possibly can.

Father, I just pray for everybody listening to this and I pray for your church. I pray for the body of Christ that you’ll encourage that. And we just pray for that time when you will return to this world in glory and the whole earth will finally understand who you are. Lord, that is our longing, that is what we hope for.

And so, we just give all praise to you, and I thank you for everybody involved in this podcast who has helped it happen as well, Lord. Just thank you, Lord. And I say this in Jesus Christ’s name. Amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just F. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

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The Way of the Triune God w/ Myk Habets

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture found in the revised common lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it brings me joy to welcome our guest, Dr. Myk Habets. Myk is the head of theology at Laidlaw College in Auckland, New Zealand. Don’t we all want to go there?

And he’s the author of several books including The Spirit of Truth: Reading Scripture and Constructing Theology with the Holy Spirit, Trinitarian Theology After Barth, and Reconsidering Gender: Evangelical Perspectives. He also serves in pastoral ministry, alongside his wife and senior pastor, at Albany Baptist Church.

Myk, thank you for being with us. Welcome to the podcast, and since this is your first time joining us, we’d love to get to know you. Tell us a little bit about your story and how you’re participating with the Lord these days.

[00:01:31] Myk: Thanks. Thanks for that introduction. Thanks for the welcome onto the podcast. And feel free to cut me off at any point you need to. Sometimes when we tell our own stories, we could just go on and on.

But yeah, I’m head of theology at Laidlaw College, which is an Evangelical Interdenominational College here in Auckland, New Zealand. We have about 1000 students and about 700 of those are in theology, and the others are doing counseling and education. I’m a professor of theology, so systematic theology is what I teach and what I love. And I’ve been doing that for about 20 years.

And love it. I love teaching Christians. I love the fact that we’re able to open Scripture, the tradition, wrestle with reason and experience within context and then just bring people to a deeper understanding of the faith—faith seeking understanding, and that old quip that we use quite a lot, digging wells which go deep rather just wide and shallow is really what we’re about.

And so, I spend most of my time around Christians and Christian community when I’m not at work. I’m an associate pastor of Albany Baptist Church, as you said, where my wife is the senior pastor. We’re a small Baptist church—small but desperate to grow. So doing lots of missional and community work in our area, which is on the North Shore of Auckland, which is a wealthier part of the town. And of course, with wealth, the gospel doesn’t typically flourish. People don’t think they need Jesus or salvation, but we are now getting a lot of immigrants into New Zealand and so they’re coming and quite receptive, quite open to the gospel. So, there’s a mission field right on our doorstep, and that’s waking up some of our secular New Zealanders.

New Zealand where I work and live is one of the most secular countries in the world. So very different from parts of America, very different from other parts of the world, which show their religion publicly. Here you’re not persecuted for your Christianity or having religious views, but it is very odd. It’s very unusual to be religious and to have convictions, which makes it really post-Christian, post-secular, very post-modern, post everything, which creates challenges, but also those challenges are opportunities to go back to basics. And the gospel still speaks to people today. And so that’s encouraging in and of itself.

And my story as I came to faith as a young guy, my mother was converted by a lady in our community who desperately wanted to be a missionary to India, but her husband didn’t. He wanted to stay here, so she became a missionary to the people in her neighborhood. Through her, God converted a number of the wives who then converted their children. I was one of them. And the rest is history really.

I grew up in church youth group leadership, had some good mentors who pointed me in the right direction through a bit of a circuitous route. I investigated pastoral ministry, but I don’t have the real gifting or temperament for pastoral.

I looked into mission, but I don’t have a particular gift in evangelism. And so, teaching came a bit later for me, but when it did, it was an obvious thing where I’m gifted, where I’m passionate. And yeah, been doing that for the last 20 years.

And then writing books, so research and publishing, so perhaps 20, 30 books now. Many edited where I invite friends to contribute to things I think are important in the church needs to be thinking and talking about. So that’s a real privilege as well to have a wider international audience, through books, through conferences and meeting people like yourselves somehow online and been able to do podcasts, and that’s what’s brought me here today.

[00:05:43] Anthony: Amen and amen. We’re so glad that you said yes, and we ask God to have his way by his Spirit in Auckland as you continue to minister the gospel to those who are thirsty for living waters. May he have his way!

Let’s get on to the lectionary passages that we’ll be discussing for this month. We have four.

Matthew 28:16-20 “The Way of the Triune God”

Matthew 9:9-13; 18-26 “Man, Interrupted”

Matthew 9:35 – 10:8 “Workers Wanted”

Matthew 10:24-39 “Like the Master”

Let me read the first pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 28:16-20. It’s from the New Revised Standard Version, and it’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Trinity Sunday, which falls on June 4.

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him, but they doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Myk, this passage is going to fall on Trinity Sunday in the Lectionary cycle. And as sometimes our understanding of the Trinity is askew, it’s reduced often to unhelpful metaphors or seen, even worse, as a mathematical conundrum. So, let’s flip the script.

How is the Trinity so much more, and what would you have us to know about the way of the triune God revealed in this pericope?

[00:07:42] Myk: Thanks, Anthony. Yeah. Where do we start and where do we finish? Contemporary Christians have to be reminded (or probably now instructed, I think) that the church did not invent the doctrine of the Trinity around the year 300 AD or something like that, which some people have purported.

The early Christians, the first Christians right from the disciples, at least midway through Jesus’ ministry, were invited by Jesus to worship Yahweh as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And as they watch Jesus, as they live with Jesus, as they walk and talk with Jesus, they start to see him do things, say things, act in particular ways, which resembles Yahweh.

And I love that text halfway through his ministry, they see him praying—Jesus praying. He did it often. And they nudge each other. I think we read in between the texts, they nudge each other. You ask him; I don’t want to ask him. You ask him, I’ll feel silly. So, someone asks him. Lord, teach us how to pray.

And it’s ridiculous really, that a Jew, a faithful Jew, would be asking someone how to pray because they’ve had several thousand years of being taught how to pray. They know how to pray. So, it’s not really a technique question; it’s not a “how” question that they’re asking. It’s really a “who to” question.

We pray to God; we pray to Yahweh. Behold, the Lord your God. The Lord is one. We do that every day and often, but you look like God. You talk like God. You act like God. Are you Yahweh? And Jesus answered them, I think, in the first two words of that Lord’s prayer, our Father.

And I’m sure they had a theological conference because I’m a theologian. Of course, they did. And they withdrew, said he wants us to pray, “our Father,” but he’s not our Father. He’s the father of the Lord Jesus Christ. And Jesus is the exclusive son of the Father. And so, what’s he asking us to do? And I think in the “our Father,” they get the gospel of the triune God. He is only the Father of the Son.

Unless we are the son, he’s not our Father. And that would be blasphemy that we are the son of God. Or the next best thing, unless we are united to the Son, unless we are in the Son. And therein is the gospel, as Christ sends the Spirit who unites us to Christ. And Christ brings us before the Father. We acknowledge and we worship that Yahweh is indeed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And here in this text, Matthew 28, the famous commission, the Great Commission, go make disciples. Don’t just make converts, whatever that might translate to. Don’t just get notches in your belt. Don’t just share a brief message and walk on, but make disciples, make people who will follow the living God.

And as you do baptize them, that sacramental, that means of grace, that ceremony, baptize them into “the name” (singular) Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the one God who is three persons. And from there, I think the Trinity becomes the ground and grammar of our theology, of our Christian lives, of all that we do.

And surprisingly, I think, for some today, the Trinity is one of the most practical doctrines, if not the most practical doctrine we have. It’s not a set of esoteric teachings that are reserved for theologians or students who want to pay lots of money to go to a classroom. It’s actually incredibly practical.

The fact that God is personal, that God defines what it means to be a person. Those three persons, one being in mutual relationship with one another in Jesus Christ, the eternal Son who is of the same substance as the Father, who becomes human without ceasing to be. God shows us that the image of God is actually the image of Christ—one who is rightly related to God, to the world, to creation, and to himself.

And the Trinity teaches us that God is personal, that God is absolute, that God is relational, that God is love. And we could unpack each of those four things and many others. We worship a God who is not static. We worship a God who is not removed.

We worship a God who was dynamic in his very being, who was love, who before the creation of the world was already involved in loving relationship. He didn’t need the world to love, he didn’t need creatures to love. He’s not that kind of a being. In some ways, he is not a being at all really. He is a completely different thing. He is God. He is the self-existing triune one.

And I think in that dynamic trinitarianism and that utterly relational triunity, that again becomes the ground, the grammar of all that we do, all that we say, all that we are. And then we start reading scripture, like this passage but so many others, in that Trinitarian key: if there is one God who is Father, Son, Spirit, then was God in the creation narrative the triune God?

And again, we see the Father, and I think we’re supposed to read that as the Father speaks; the Word, the dabar, the logos, the Son goes forth; the Spirit hovers over the waters of chaos. As St. Basil said in the early church, there seems to be a pattern, the Father, if you like, purposing or directing; the Son achieving, accomplishing; the Spirit perfecting.

And we see that pattern throughout almost every story and scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. We come into the New Testament, and it just becomes so clear. How creation came into existence is how our spiritual rebirth comes into existence. As the Father sends the Son, as the Son sends the Spirit, as the Spirit draws, convicts, convinces, unites us to Christ, as Christ brings us back into the presence of the Father.

So, we can now pray “our Father,” and then we go back out into the world in this work of participating in Christ’s mission to do Matthew 20, to teach others to make disciples, to start the birth of the church communities of the body of Christ that are worshiping in spirit and in truth.

And so I think this is one of these fantastic texts, one of these great texts—not just about evangelism (although it is about that), not just about the church and building it (it is about that), but it’s about those things because it’s first about who God is: the God of love, the God of grace, the God of glory, who is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

And that gives us a message that gives us an impetus, a compulsion to share that love with others. And we call that mission. So, we could go on and on, but those are some of my opening thoughts about that text.

[00:14:59] Anthony: In other words, the way that we often view the Trinity is just a reductionist view. You’re saying, ultimately the ground and grammar of theology are a way of understanding not only God, but the entirety of the world, is fantastical because of who he is and what he’s accomplished in his Son.

You talked about the rest of this passage, about how he tells us to go and make disciples. But before he does that, because of the beauty, the dynamic nature of this triune God, he gives us indicatives of grace first and surrounds all the imperatives he gives us, in his grace.

So, what would you want us to know about the imperative here that’s often referred to as the Great Commission?

[00:15:45] Myk: Yeah, I’ve been reflecting on that. I don’t have anything unique to say other than the fact that I am struck always when I attend a baptism today, as to how unusual this is, whether it’s as infants or as adults.

I’m a Baptist, so it’s mostly adult believers’ baptisms, I attend. But’s an enacted parable. It’s a sacramental act and means of grace whereby we are cleansed of our sin. We are united to Christ. We testify to the reality of faith in our lives. We rise from the baptismal grave into Christ’s new life in anticipation of the resurrection.

As the end of days comes closer, let us not be found lacking in evangelism. So, I’m just struck by the unusualness in our world of this deeply Christian act, and it just reminds me that physically, when we baptize people or are baptized, we are physically entering into the strange new world of the Bible.

As Barth said a long time ago, this alternate universe. This everywhere—what is it? Everywhere, always, all at once! What is the movie? You could almost be describing the Christian worldview really: the already, the not yet; the king is close, the kingdom is near, all this type of teaching.

And I think baptism is a microcosm of that. So, the imperatives here and the indicatives, we must go. Why do we go? Not because we have to, not because it’s some external law. We must. In the sense that, how can we not share the euangelion, the good news? How can we not want to baptize? How can we not want to replicate and reproduce?

This is what Christians have been doing since day one. This is what Jesus does. He could have stayed, as we read in the New Testament, Colossians and Philippians, without considering deity a thing to be exploited. He offered himself, he humbled himself. He humiliated himself. He became a servant for us and for our salvation to the point of death, even death on a cross.

And then God exalts him. He didn’t have to do that. We don’t have to do anything, I guess, but again, we default back to, but who is the God who loves and saves? It’s the triune Lord of grace and glory. Who are we as Christians? We are those who are becoming like the one we worship. And so, the indicatives and the imperatives here are connected.

I am told to go because I really do want to, and I want to go because I’m told. And there’s a circularity about faith and works. I think that Christians somehow get we are rewarded for doing what Christ does in us and through us, like children where we reward them with their own gifts in order to gift them back to us.

And it just seems to make sense.

[00:18:51] Anthony: Yes. All right, so let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 9:9-13; 18-26. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 5 in Ordinary Time, which falls on June 11. Myk, would you do the honors of reading it for us please?

[00:19:11] Myk: Yeah, thanks.

9 As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax-collection station, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him. 10 And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with Jesus and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 But when he heard this, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

18 While he was saying these things to them, suddenly a leader came in and knelt before him, saying, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.” 19 And Jesus got up and followed him, with his disciples. 20 Then suddenly a woman who had been suffering from a flow of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his cloak, 21 for she was saying to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that moment. 23 When Jesus came to the leader’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, 24 he said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him. 25 But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up. 26 And the report of this spread through all of that district.

[00:20:50] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. It’s been said, Myk, that if Jesus didn’t eat with sinners, he would’ve always dined alone. So, what should we make of the God revealed in Jesus, that he would so openly feast with notorious crooks?

[00:21:06] Myk: You wouldn’t write a sanitized version of the life of a great Savior or a God and have them hanging out with shady characters like this.

If you were making it up, if this was a fabrication, if this was some story that was mythological, these episodes wouldn’t be in sacred Scripture. There’d be nothing there would even remotely tarnish the reputation of the holy figure or the God that we’re talking about. And yet for us and as Christians, if these texts weren’t there, I wonder how many of us would still believe.

I certainly appreciate the fact that Jesus is a real character. He’s a real character who relates with real people in a fallen world. That historical particularity of walking through first century Israel and encountering people he loves, the Israelites, people he weeps over, but he doesn’t shun them. He reaches out to them, and in this story, he lets them reach out to him.

That’s a scandal, that an unclean woman would touch him, actually defiling him and making him unclean. And yet here the opposite happens. She reaches out the unclean one and the clean one, Jesus, heals her and sanctifies her, and sets her apart and restores her back to community. This is precisely why I like Jesus. This helps my faith.

Quite frankly, if this type of realism was not in Scripture, I think I might doubt his real existence, or he certainly wouldn’t be relatable. He wouldn’t be our sympathetic high priest. Our fellow human, homoousion, as the church says, of the same substance, as much as us as he is God.

I’m a sinner. This text tells me I’m not beyond the reach of a holy God. I’m not beyond the reach of a pure Jesus Christ. That even in my sin, even in my shame, even in my fallenness, I’m not beyond the reach of an all-holy God who has left heaven, who has descended to the earth, who took the form of a servant in order to redeem and glorify me.

And so the fact that these people entering the house of the dead, being touched by an unclean woman, dining with Pharisees and calling tax collectors as followers, asking little people who climbed trees because they were too arrogant to see him on their own terms and dining in his house with people and sinners—his is what Christ invites himself to do in our world as well. Maybe not physically, but nonetheless real.

And so, I love stories in church, I love testimonies in church, not necessarily of people’s conversions—I’m happy to hear about people’s Sunday school and childhood experiences over coffee one-on-one—but in church, what I really appreciate is those powerful stories: how I came to Christ, but more importantly, how I remain in Christ because we don’t stop sinning, sadly, once we become Christians.

And I think today, particularly with the mental health challenges we have, with the high levels of anxiety and depression because of what’s going on in the world (certainly here in New Zealand, we have really high rates of mental illness amongst young people), what they really need to hear is these types of stories. You are not beyond the reach of a holy God who will accept, redeem, heal, and restore. And so, for me, these are the stories that need to be there, as well as the mountaintop ones. If that makes sense.

[00:25:10] Anthony: It does. Amen. If we were writing the gospel story, the narrative, we wouldn’t write it like this, would we?

This is not the kind of God we would’ve come up with, but thanks be to God, this is the God we have revealed in Jesus Christ.

[00:25:23] Myk: We prefer the strong stuff, the powerful stuff. We’d probably paint him as a muscley, six foot six. We just buy into all the worldly tropes of power.

Jesus just demolishes all that and says, no, that’s just a social construct. Real power is the ability to stoop down low and relate to people where they’re at and then lift them up. That’s real power, and I need reminding of that every day.

[00:25:51] Anthony: And thanks be to God that the Son of man has been lifted up and is drawing all people to himself.

And once again, in this passage, Myk, we see that our Lord is interrupted. It happens constantly. So, if you are preaching verses 18 – 26 to your congregation, what would you preach about these ongoing interruptions and the fact that Jesus, our Lord, is willing to submit to the situation?

[00:26:17] Myk: Yeah. I’m the personality type that is very task focused. I have lists and I have to-dos, and I pride myself on getting through those and rewarding myself when things are ticked off. And when people interrupt those plans and when other stuff comes along, my first reaction, I have to confess, is how this is going to put my whole day out. This is not helping my productivity or my efficiency whatsoever.

[00:26:46] Anthony: Yes, we should hang out a lot, Myk. We’re wired the same.

[00:26:50] Myk: Yeah, that’s right. And Jesus has got more important work to do than I have, and yet he keeps getting interrupted, and he seems to welcome it.

He just goes with the flow, and it is incredibly intentional. And so how would I preach this? I’d start with a story of my own testimony, like I just did, saying how annoying, how frustrating! There’s a time and place for everything you get in line take a ticket wait your turn.

And yet for Jesus divine interruptions are the norm, not the exception. We should expect God to bring people and events into our lives, not to interrupt our real work, but actually this is our real work because people are not a means to an end. They are the end, and Jesus knew that, and we need to learn that. So, I’d probably talk about that.

And then second, Jesus shows his absolute sovereignty. All creation was made by him and for him. And here we see a glimpse of that reality through those healings. And I think that’s really important. I’ve preached about the woman who touches him before.

And that sermon was entitled “From Shame to Wholeness,” where I talk about people who enter into the life of Jesus, and he takes them from where they are in their shame, in their embarrassment by being unclean, by being on the margins, and through simple but powerful acts, he brings them to the center. This unclean woman was made clean. Her whole livelihood would’ve been spent on the margins, outcast. She, too, would’ve been one of those women who collected water in the heat of the day because she was avoiding people. Now she’s restored back into community.

And third, I think Jesus is not beyond being asked for things. The faith of this person to ask on behalf of his daughter was immense. He was clearly desperate, as we all would’ve been. But what faith! And Jesus has compassion, and he’s loving, and he reaches out, like the woman here. But then with the man, goes to his house, takes time out of whatever else he was doing to take a detour. But what we actually find is this is not a detour, this is the point. He was probably there at that time in that place precisely for this. And he honors the faith of the woman. He honors the faith of the man. And so, for us too, I would want to say that we too can reach out in desperation.

We too can ask in faith, we too can expect Jesus to heal, Jesus to intervene, Jesus to bring from the margins back into the center. That’s the type of God that we have.

And when we compare Jesus to many other holy figures in history and today, when we compare him to other gods, he doesn’t compare. He simply contrasts. Other gods (we won’t be too specific), but you simply serve, you simply do. Their entire faith’s based around simple allegiance. And god says, jump. And they say, how high. We too are soldiers under command. That’s true. We too are citizens of a kingdom which has a king, and we do what he says. But it’s never framed, or very rarely framed, like that.

It’s a relational king and a relational kingdom where he invites his subjects to ask, to come before him repeatedly and ask for audacious things: healing, wholeness, life for a dead person. Yeah, it’s just utterly audacious. And Jesus isn’t even mildly offended by that. There’s no rebuke, there’s no, who do you think you are? You’re not important enough for me to do that. And it’s almost, yeah, that was actually on my to-do list today. I just needed you to ask me about it.

And so I go back into the world and I would want to preach to the congregation that as we go about our doctoring and nursing, our building, our plumbing, whatever it is that God has got us doing on our daily basis, that we would also be looking out for the people that he brings into our lives and those small tidbits of information are probably the main narrative of that day. And if we’re not attuned to those, we’re going to miss opportunities that God has for your day. So “look out for the small things in life, because they’re probably the main things in life” might be the title of my sermon.

[00:31:39] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word. And it never stops being astounding that this God would condescend to humanity, enter in, take on the form of a servant and die. And not just any death, death on a cross. I mean it’s just holy other, it transcends anything that we know. And how can it lead to anything but worship? Like we always say, theology should lead to doxology or we’re doing something wrong.

Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Matthew 9:35-10:8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 6 in Ordinary Time, which is June 18.

35 Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and curing every disease and every sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; 38 therefore ask the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.”

Then Jesus summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon, also known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananaean and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not take a road leading to gentiles, and do not enter a Samaritan town, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim the good news, ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Cure the sick; raise the dead; cleanse those with a skin disease; cast out demons. You received without payment; give without payment.

I find it interesting, Myk, that Jesus told the disciples to ask the Lord to send workers into the harvest field, and they became the answer of that prayer because they were sent out themselves. What should we make of this, if anything?

[00:34:00] Myk: Yeah, that’s an interesting observation. I take a principle from that: be careful what you pray for.

Seriously though I think we often pray to God for things he’s already given answers to. I certainly heard that, hear that a lot in church where—again, I’m not being mean about people—but we often hear lots and lots of prayers to God for this and that, and I’m sitting there thinking he’s already answered those prayers. He’s already given us the answers to those things. He’s already given us half of what you’ve talked about through Jesus or in Scripture.

And I think we need to be more educated, if I could say that. (I would say that cause I’m a theologian, of course.) But God has actually given us more than sometimes we even think. And so just being reminded of that is a good thing.

And then here, I think, is a leadership lesson. Leaders aren’t those who climb the top of a tree or climb onto a throne and then dictate and delegate to others. There may be some delegation in large organizations, that’s fine. I’m not against that, but leaders aren’t ones who don’t do the work and get others to do it.

Leaders are ones who do the work, and they’ll lead in the work. And I think Jesus is teaching these disciples here a really countercultural lesson: don’t be like the Romans. Don’t set yourself up in legions and hierarchies and try to get up that totem pole of success. That’s not how it works.

The harvest is there, the workers are a few. So, you guys lead the way. You show what it’s like. You do the work. That is what leadership looks like. Perhaps Jesus is reminding the disciples not to get too big for their boots. We see on various occasions, disciples arguing with each other about who might be the greatest in the kingdom and who might sit at the head of the table and close to Jesus.

And I think here, perhaps Jesus is trying to say to us as a church (and we need it), that often that the higher you get in church leadership, the more you should still be doing the work, not not doing it. It’s a curious thing in church circles where the bigger a church gets, the senior pastor somehow invariably becomes a CEO [chief executive officer].

And the very things that they wanted to do as a pastoral leader initially are the first things they give up, pastoral care for one of them. I’ve never quite understood that, other than perhaps a sacrifice to power and the regime of the world. And so here, I think the gospel of Jesus Christ for leaders and disciples is there’s no ladder to climb.

Those with leadership have greater responsibility and will be judged more than others because they have to continue to do the work. And so, I do find it interesting. Yeah, be careful what you pray for because most often, we are the answer to the solution. We are the solution to the problem. I should say the answer to the prayer.

Yeah. I think that’s a really curious thing in that text.

[00:37:17] Anthony: Yes. And I appreciate what you said that often what we’re praying for, it’s already been given in Jesus Christ. And so, when we say God bless you, and of course, that is an appropriate thing to say, but we should also say God has blessed us.

Just look at Jesus. We are ultimately blessed. Jesus gave the instructions—oh, go ahead.

[00:37:38] Myk: Yeah, just these sometimes, constant prayers: show me your will for my life (as kind of the teenage, young adult angst.) Yeah, he’s done that quite clearly in Scripture. He is showing us his will for each of our lives. If we are faithful and passionate and true to him, then the rest will take care of itself. We seem to be praying for the insignificant, rather than the important things, if that makes sense.

And it is just a constant challenge not to conform the gospel to our culture, but to conform our culture to the gospel. And so, in our—particularly in our western industrialized, over-industrialized worlds where we’ve learned to control and manipulate everything, we then try to do that in our faith. And again, here, I think Jesus is saying quite clearly to us today: you won’t manipulate or control me. If you want to harvest, then you are going to be the harvesters. That’s how it works.

And when we get back to grassroots stuff, we fall in love with it all over again, talking to people, sharing the faith. When someone actually receives Christ, there’s rejoicing in heaven. There’s also rejoicing on earth, and again, sadly for some of us, it’s been a long time between drinks, if you like.

Oh, I did that when I was in youth group, and we did a lot of that stuff when we were young adults. Now that we are mature and we’ve got mortgages, and we’ve got jobs and we’ve got children, and we’ve got all the rest, we tend not to do that anymore. And again, I take from this text, you never outgrow doing the work of God and particularly leaders.

[00:39:29] Anthony: Yeah. You talked about how in Western society, it’s a challenge, ongoing challenge, not to conform our prayers to culture and the way that we view our worldview, if you will. But also, not to center ourselves. Jesus is the center, not me. But often I’ve got to catch myself that I’m praying in terms of myself at the center of the story, which makes my prayers pretty small.

And we want to remember who’s at the center of all this. The one who is at the center gave instructions to herald Good News, which is the kingdom of heaven has come near!

Let me ask you this, is it possible to herald that good news about the kingdom, but not really understand what the kingdom is?

[00:40:16] Myk: Yeah, that’s interesting. Yes and no. Surely, you can’t herald or proclaim that of which we know nothing about. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have anything to say. But neither can we know everything about what the kingdom of God means. So, it’s a yes and no. And I don’t mean that to escape the question.

We can have confidence in the reality of his reign, the scope of his reign. We can proclaim that to all and sundry, and we can do that as a five-year-old, as a 15-year-old, as a 50-year-old. You know that we don’t need a massive IQ for any of that stuff. Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me, that’s as good as it gets.

But so, we can hear all that, we can hear all the kingdom to that extent, but to think we know everything about the kingdom, wow that’s where we get in trouble. That’s where people like me, theologians, can sometimes get in trouble by thinking we know more than we do. So, for me, it’s having that deep and utter confidence in the clear things that Jesus tells us.

Jesus is our Lord and Savior. He lived, died, rose again, and is coming again. For us, we know these things for a fact. Other things that we do believe, we hold a bit more lightly. I don’t know what is the exact best form of church government. I’m in a Baptist church. I think that’s really close. But so does every other church and every other form of church government, and we just agree to disagree on that stuff. I don’t know what that might look like in the kingdom.

I wrote a little book, a popular book on heaven, an inkling of things to come, where I make this point that there are things we know for certain, and we should proclaim that from the rooftop. But in between those things, there are things we don’t know for certain. But Jesus gives us hints. He gives us teaching. We have in Scripture little insights.

So why did he give us some information, but not everything? So why didn’t he tell us everything or nothing? And I think the reason is he gives us enough to pin our hope on, enough fact, enough reality, enough truth, that we have hope and that rises within.

And then the other things I think he wants us to talk about as Christians. I want you to talk about this amongst yourself. What will heaven taste like? What will heaven smell like? What will heaven sound like? And that too is part of this—I call it after Lewis, a baptized imagination. James Smith might call it a social imaginary. Again, Barth calls it the strange new world of the Bible. We start to see the world in different ways.

There are more possibilities open to us than the non-Christian can see. I’m looking out my window now. They see a tree. We see a tree created by a good God. And so, the tree leads us to God. For others, it’s just a tree. So, I think we can proclaim the kingdom, we can proclaim the reality of it. We just need to be chasing that. We don’t know the full. And we keep bringing that back to Scripture, back to Christ, and back to discussion in the church—that’s social imaginary.

Which is something that we haven’t done very well, I think, in modernity. The last couple of hundred years, it’s all become mathematics (to be crude), rather than imagining the reign and realm of Christ now with a chastened humility.

[00:44:08] Anthony: That is so profound what you said about imagination, and it made me think of a Eugene Peterson quote from his book, Tell It Slant.

He said, Jesus used language to teach, but unlike the teaching in schools, lecture is designed to do the thinking for us. Often Jesus is teaching sparkle with scintillating aphorisms. He wasn’t so much handing out information as reshaping our imaginations.

I think that is so true.

[00:44:38] Myk: Yeah, that’s a good quote. I’ve got a post-grad student at the moment who’s trying to answer the question, what is a theologically informed definition of the imagination. So, I’ll be pointing him to that book. It’s helpful.

[00:45:01] Anthony: Good. It’s fantastic.

Our final passage of the month is Matthew 10:24-39. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 7 in Ordinary Time, which is June the 25. Myk, would you read it for us please?

[00:45:08] Myk: Yeah, I’d love to.

24 “A disciple is not above the teacher nor a slave above the master; 25 it is enough for the disciple to be like the teacher and the slave like the master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household! 26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered up that will not be uncovered and nothing secret that will not become known. 27 What I say to you in the dark, tell in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops. 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 And even the hairs of your head are all counted. 31 So do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 “Everyone, therefore, who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven. 34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. 37 “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me, 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.

[00:46:52] Anthony: Wowzer. That’s a difficult statement. Jesus said he didn’t come to bring peace, but the sword in verse 34, and this seems a bit antithetical to him being the Prince of Peace. So, help us reconcile it.

[00:47:07] Myk: Yeah. Tough text. Time and again, Christ put little sayings like this to the people. I’ve come to divide families; I’ve come with violence. I’ve not come to bring peace.

And in context, I don’t think he—I’m sure he doesn’t mean he is violent; he is chaotic, or he wants us to hate our earthly parents. We know that from other texts. He is challenging, I think, the basis of our allegiances. We are to put Christ first in all spheres of life, above family, work, nation guild and so forth.

And he puts that in the most striking (and I think rather Hebraic way) possible. It’s love or hate, it’s black or white, it’s night or day, it’s me or the devil, Beelzebub. This is the genre of this particular text.

I’m the son of a Dutchman. I relate to this. This is how we think. It’s absolutes, and at times, you need the absolutes. At other times you need the nuance. Here, it’s the absolutes, but sometimes the nuance in between that is lost on us, and Christ knows. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God. Remember that from the beatitudes? But the Son of God was crucified for his beliefs. The son of God was violently killed for his beliefs, for being a peacemaker.

People don’t like peace, and they certainly don’t like the peace of Christ. And so, when we offer peace, when we offer the peace of Christ, when we offer the gospel of the good news to others, it ironically can look like violence. What you mean I’m going to have to–and then they just give their catalog of things they think they’ll have to give up.

Some of which they will. You mean I can’t serve God and money? You mean I can’t continue to take advantage of people? You mean I can’t continue to steal and rob and cheat? You mean I can’t continue to be a narcissist? I’m not the center of the universe?

And that gospel of peace, that gospel of grace is so often encountered in a fallen world as violent because it will separate people from their allegiance to money, to family, to nation, to work to everything. My identity now is meant to be a child of God primarily, not primarily the husband of Odele, not primarily the father of Sydney and Liam, not primarily a theologian, not primarily a homeowner or whatever I might put my trust, my allegiance, my identity in.

And so, I think in today’s terms, this is Jesus challenging identity politics. He’s challenging identity theory. He’s challenging it all. He’s saying if there is anything in your psyche that is at the basis of who you are other than me and allegiance to me, then it’s wrong.

And in the most striking terms possible, you must hate your father and your mother to be a follower of me. Again, this hate, this is a very Hebraic way of speaking. It’s a very Teutonic, German, Dutch way of speaking. It’s love or hate. Those are the only options. There’s nothing in between in this type of text.

We need to read it in that context. And Jesus again, he’s human. He’s utterly human. He’s completely a hundred percent human. And so, he knows what will arrest us, what will get our attention, what will cut through the—we could use lots of synonyms there—but cut through the nonsense.

And so, the rich young ruler comes off, I paid all the laws, what more must I do to be saved? And Jesus just looks at him and knows his heart and says, why don’t you sell everything, all of it, every single thing? And then come follow me.

Now he doesn’t ask all of us to sell everything we have. That’s not a requirement to enter the kingdom, that we have no possessions. Jesus had some possessions. We know that Jesus relied on a number of disciples and followers in his larger group who had wealth to fund his ministry. So, he wasn’t against that. Jesus visited friends of his, Mary and Martha who owned a house, maybe they had at other property.

But he’s saying to that rich young ruler, you are serving money. That’s the basis of your entire identity. You need to change that to being a child of God. And then the way you earn money, the way you think about money, the way you spend money will be completely different.

For other people, it’s family and they need to be broken of that primary allegiance. For others, it’s their nation, king and country, president and country before all else. Sadly, I think we are seeing that being played out on an international stage with Russia and Ukraine. Unfortunately, the Russian Orthodox Church is fully supportive of the Russian government’s invasion of Ukraine and the slaughtering of innocent people.

I just think that’s reprehensible, and I think Jesus would say to them, this text, you need to put me first and hate your country. Again, it doesn’t literally mean you must hate the country that you’re part of. You should be a good citizen. We’re told that elsewhere, but where is your primary identity? And so, I think again, Jesus is the master of knowing what humanity and humans are.

He puts his finger on the things we love most. What could be dearer to our hearts than family? Your mother, your father, sibling, children and he says, even them. I must be the primary identity marker for you.

And then what we find in the gospel, and I think we probably have to go on to say that today, is that when Jesus, when God is our primary identity—I am a child of God; I am in Christ Jesus; I am full of the Spirit—when that’s the basis of my identity, it will actually make me a better spouse, a better husband. It will make me a better father. It will make me a better citizen. It will make me a better slave in this context, worker in the workplace. And Jesus knew that.

So, it’s a powerful text. It’s a confronting text. It’s a black and white text, but I think in context, it doesn’t lose any of its power. But it does explain part of the nuance that Jesus is talking.

[00:54:04] Anthony: You’ve already spoken to this, but maybe you’d want to put some more meat on the bone, so to speak. As I look over verses 37 – 39, the word “surrender” keeps coming to mind.

What does it mean to surrender to the lordship of Jesus Christ above all else? Anything else you’d like to add there?

[00:54:23] Myk: Yeah. Speaking as one sinner to many others. I’m no saint, and so surrendering is a daily thing. So, I don’t want people who don’t know me listening to this to get the wrong opinion of me. I’m just a fellow sinner.

What does it mean? I think it means standing on a precipice, a ledge a thousand feet in the air and having Jesus say, I want you to step out in faith and I will be there. I want you to trust me to save you. And I think the Christian life is a daily struggle in stepping off the ledge and into the presence of God.

And it’s a struggle because the things Jesus talked about, family and work and the many other things, they do have a hold on us. And daily, this surrender idea, this practice, this virtue of surrendering is God releasing us from the shackles of all that binds us to the earth.

I’m reminded of this wonderful little C.S. Lewis notion. He says, I think it was St. John of the Cross who talked about God being a sea, an ocean, and inviting us in further. And what we miserable creatures do, we tie our rope around our waist, we tie it to a peg of steak, and we stake that into the sand on the seashore, and we slowly let ourselves out with the safety rope so that we’ll just get up to our ankles, maybe up to our knees, but no more so that we won’t get swept away and lose control. Whereas God wants us to cut that rope, dive into the ocean, which is him. And he will keep us afloat, and he will take us into the depth.

So, I see surrender as a daily practice of trusting the faithfulness of God. And the more we do that, the more we’re loosed from those shackles of all the things that bind us to the earth.

But then the irony is, as I said earlier, we find that when we do that, we do become better people, better parents, better spouses, better citizens. This is the great irony, the great reversal of the Christian gospel: to those who give up everything and accept Christ. Christ then gives them everything.

[00:56:53] Anthony: Everything. Everything. Hallelujah. Praise God. And I want to remind our listening audience that what we see revealed in Jesus is a God who keeps the covenant, he receives the covenant and accomplishes it in the one person Jesus Christ. And in this way, the covenant giving, and the covenant keeping is a partnership within God’s self on humanity’s behalf. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Myk, you’re a beloved child of God. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to our listening audience, and certainly I want to thank two key people that help make this podcast happen. Reuel Enerio, our producer, and Elizabeth Mullins, who does the good work of transcription. Thank you both.

And Myk, it’s our tradition here at Gospel Reverb to end in prayer. So, would you pray a prayer that the Spirit leads you to, to bless our listening audience?

[00:57:42] Myk: I’d love to and thank you again for the opportunity.

I’d like to finish by praying something from the Orthodox Paschal Liturgy. Let us pray.

It is fitting and just to sing to you, to bless you, to praise you, to give thanks to you, to worship you in every place of your dominion. Out of nothing, you brought us into being. And when we fell, you raised us up again, and you will one day bring us to heaven and grant us a place in your future kingdom for all these things.

We thank you and your only begotten Son and your Holy Spirit for all these blessings, both known and unknown, manifest and hidden, that have been bestowed upon us. We thank you, Almighty God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We pray these things in Jesus’ name, amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just F. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

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Living Hope w/ Mandy Smith

Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary.

The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode.

Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb. Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from scripture found in the Revised Common Lectionary and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view.

I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and I’m jazzed to welcome our guest this month, Mandy Smith. Mandy is the pastor of St. Lucia Uniting Church near Brisbane, Australia. She’s the former pastor of University Christian Church in Cincinnati, Ohio. And for those of you that may be geographically challenged, those are not nearby neighbors. That’s not a Sunday afternoon drive, so that’s going to be a fascinating story to hear.

She’s also a cohort leader at Western Theological Seminary and is the author of some exceptional books, including Unfettered: Imagining a Childlike Faith Beyond the Baggage of Western Culture, and Almost There: A 30 Day Journey Where Tomorrow’s Uncertainty Takes a Back Seat to The Promise of Today, The Vulnerable Pastor, and her latest book, which will come out in the fall of 2024, which is entitled, Confessions of a Secular Saint.

I highly recommend these books to you wherever you get your books. I’ve listened to Mandy on several podcasts, and she is a trusted voice in the body of Christ. And if you want to know more about her, you can find that information on her website, which is thewayistheway.org. Once again, that’s thewayistheway.org.

Mandy, thank you for being with us and welcome to the podcast. I know you’ve gotten up early since you’re in Australia. Thank you for that. And since this is your first time joining us, we’d love to know a little bit about your story and how you are participating with the Lord these days.

[00:02:10] Mandy: Yeah. It’s so good to be with you and it’s wonderful to have an opportunity to join the conversation that you’ve already got going on here.

I grew up in Australia but left to go to university with my very new husband back in 1989. Planning to go for 10 years so that we could return to ministry in Australia, which is what we’ve always felt called to do.

And doors kept opening in the US and the UK and doors kept closing in Australia. Until the middle of Covid, then suddenly something opened up. And I would not recommend an international move in the middle of a global pandemic. That was a crazy time. So about two years ago then we moved back to Australia and I was originally from working with the churches of Christ.

And now we are working with the Uniting Church in Australia, which is in the 1970s in Australia, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Congregationalist churches (for the most part) most of them joined to become this denomination of the Uniting Church in Australia.

So I’m still learning about what it means to be a part of the Uniting Church, but similar to my upbringing, there’s a passion for unity, as you can hear in the name. And the Restoration Movement, Churches of Christ that I grew up in were a unity movement—in theory—as well. We don’t always get it right, but that’s the desire and that really resonates with my own heart, that even though we’re all very different when we unite around the body and the joy of Christ, then we find something in common with one another.

And it defies the world’s way of understanding when they can say, what do those people have in common? Because it makes no sense that they would be together.

So that’s where I am now. I’ve been here at St. Lucia Uniting Church for about 18 months now, and I was placed here by the presbytery as part of a regeneration project. The congregation was pretty close to closing. Had about 12 people in their 70s and 80s when I first arrived. And they decided, no, we’re going to give it one more try. And so, my hiring was a part of their effort to do that.

Yeah, I’m seeing God doing a lot of miracles, and it’s really hard work. But we are growing and I think these days, numbers aren’t everything but we’re getting 35 or so on a Sunday now. God’s doing something and drawing people to us and drawing people who are really hungry and coming out of some really difficult situations.

So it’s exciting to be a part of that.

[00:04:44] Anthony: God’s always up to something.

Mandy: Oh, my goodness. I wish he’d tell us what it was.

Anthony: Right. I think it is wisdom he only allows us to see around the bend just a bit. Otherwise, we’d run in the opposite direction if we knew what was ahead. But it’s always good. It is always good.

Let’s get to it. We’re here to talk about the lectionary passages for the month of April.

Philippians 2:5-11 “Kenosis”

Matthew 28:1-10 “Don’t Be Afraid”

1 Peter 1:3-9 “Living Hope”

1 Peter 1:17-23 “Mutuality Through Kinship”

1 Peter 2:19-25 “Suffering Is Universal”

Let me read the first passage of the month. It’s Philippians 2:5-11. I’m reading from the New Revised Standard version. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the liturgy of the passion on April the 2nd.

Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mandy, this is one of my favorite passages, the Christ hymn. This beautiful sweeping text that’s sometimes referred to as a kenosis passage. Kenosis being a self-emptying that we see in Jesus Christ.

Why should we be in awe of this kenosis reality of God revealed in Jesus Christ?

[00:06:45] Mandy: Yeah, you’re right. It’s a huge sweeping text and not only the concepts that it describes, but the poetry of it is just transcendent. And I guess that’s all we can do when there’s something that’s so beyond our understanding of God emptying himself to become like us.

Like how could we even wrap our minds around that? And sometimes poetry is the only thing we have to actually communicate. One plus one does not always equal two. We can’t have scientific language about this kind of thing. And so to be transformed, to be swept away in the beauty of the poetry, I think is a part of what’s happening here.

But what a crazy thing. I think if we were going to invent a God, we would not invent a God who did that. That makes us really uncomfortable because if we were going to be God—if I was going to be God, I wouldn’t even think that was the way to do it.

I would assume being a God is always lording over everybody, and what a way that Jesus lords over us by serving us and emptying of all of that in order to become like us. And I confess that most of my Christian experience has been more about Jesus as God. And it’s only been in recent years that I’ve really been trying to embrace this possibility that Jesus was also human.

And I think I’ve learned a lot about what it means to be human by studying Jesus. I think he was more willing to be human than we often are, and I see it in this kind of kenosis. We see this kind of happening in some kind of galactic space, like at the beginning of some kind of science fiction movie or something of this emptying happening in a place where we can’t see and happening before Jesus was born.

But we see it in his daily experience as well, that the story of something like his temptations in the wilderness. I see him doing that, that he’s choosing once more not to go back to being God. I think that the enemy is actually saying, hey, don’t forget your God. You could feed yourself any time you like, you can make the stone into bread. Just be God again and then you won’t have any of these problems. You can make sure that everybody bows down and worships you. You have the power. Just do it.

And so, when I read those temptations, I hear Jesus refusing to give up his ordinary human limitation and to just keep following the Father one day at a time.

And in that I see lessons for my ordinary human limitations as well. So that’s one reason why this is one of my favorite passages.

[00:09:19] Anthony: He is the true human, and he shows us what it looks like to be human. And sometimes we want a superhuman God, not the God that we have. That’s what we received, the God that we have given to us in Jesus Christ.

And so I want to ask you this, and this feels a bit like an unfair question because there’s so much gospel in this text, but if you were preaching this pericope to your congregation, what else would you herald?

[00:09:45] Mandy: Yeah, just this way that this is the way of Jesus and if we are following him, don’t be surprised if it’s the way that we are called into as well.

On a personal note in probably in the last eight years or so, I’ve entered into a practice of emptying prayer simply because God has put me in some places that make me really anxious and that feel way over my head. And out of that anxiety, I’m tempted to just work harder and try to be God basically.

And the only thing I know to do, and I do this every single morning, I do this every time I feel overwhelmed—which is often—to instead of trying to fill myself up, being called to empty and say, Lord, I just confess all the ways I’m trying to fix this on my own, and all the ways I feel in over my head.

And that was all I thought I was doing. Like I just thought that’s what needs to happen in order to just minister more honestly, and not from anxiety. But if I’ve ever felt the feeling of the Holy Spirit, that’s when it’s come, and I’ve realized what I’m doing is emptying of my own power and control in order to be available for the Spirit that is already there.

Like, I think we often say, come Holy Spirit because we don’t feel the Holy Spirit. But that’s actually not what Scripture describes. Scripture describes a filling that we’ve already been given. And it’s lovely for us to say, come, to invite the Holy Spirit. But I think when we say that, the Holy Spirit is like, I’m already here. Will you just give me some more space?

It’s been crazy that there has been in that emptying prayer—and I actually have a video that I’ve created, pretty low budget one, but a guided prayer, kind of visualization prayer of emptying based on 2 Corinthians 4, that I’d be happy to share with you if you want to share it with folks, because it’s basically the prayer that I do.

When I’ve done that emptying prayer, without expecting it, finding myself with an idea or a passage of scripture that’s come to me, or some comfort or encouragement or courage that I’m realizing now that power was always available to me. That comfort and guidance was always available to me, but I was just too busy trying to fix everything myself.

And that feels like really good news to me that this is not only Jesus’ story. But it’s our story, that when we empty, it makes us available to the work of God in a way we may not have ever known.

[00:12:13] Anthony: And thanks be to God that he is trustworthy to fill us up. That there doesn’t need to be fear in the emptying of ourselves just as we see in Jesus Christ.

And yes, we’d love to have access to that low budget film of yours, on the emptying prayer. So we’ll include that in the show notes.

And just a final thought—we don’t have time to get into it—but in the close of this pericope, we see every knee bending, every tongue confessing. And it made me think of a quote I saw once from Frederick Buechner and he said, “The final secret, I think, is this: that the words, ‘You shall love your God’ become in the end less a command than a promise.”

That eventually we just step into the reality. Of course, we want to be with you for eternity when we come face to face with the Lord.

Let’s transition to our next passage of the month. It’s Matthew 28:1-10. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Easter Sunday on April the 9th.

Mandy, would you read it for us, please?

[00:13:14] Mandy: I love Easter Sunday. I get to read that passage. So yes,

After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, ‘Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples, “He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.” This is my message for you.’ 8 So they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them and said, ‘Greetings!’ And they came to him, took hold of his feet, and worshipped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, ‘Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.’

[00:14:24] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. It is resurrection Sunday, and I don’t know if you struggle with this, Mandy, but I sure do. When it’s holy week, I get a sense of just this feeling of I’m an imposter. Imposter syndrome.

How do I ever preach a sermon on Easter Sunday? How is that done? Of course, it’s by the Spirit, but it’s always quite intimidating and overwhelming. But there is so much to say and so little time in a sermon (and of course in a podcast like this), but we try.

So what Christological thoughts would you like to share in light of this passage?

[00:14:54] Mandy: Yeah, I’m just struck when we are reading, in tandem with the previous passage that, again, the good news comes from something that’s just the opposite of what human beings do. Again, if I was going to be God, I would do something much more spectacular than just leave an empty space .

And I think there’s something really beautiful about God’s willingness, his true trust, in what happens in the small things, in even the emptiness, that he sees the miracle of what can happen.

It’s not spectacular in the way that we would expect spectacular things. Although of course, it is spectacular that soon they’re to see his risen body. And what an amazing thing! We can’t even wrap our heads around that, beyond just if you had a friend who died and then came back to life.

That’s one thing—just to see someone that you love again. But then to think, okay, and we believe this person to be the Son of God, and what does this mean for everybody, not just those who’ve been friends with him?

I love to try when I do enter into preaching this passage—and I hear you on that, who am I to speak such a wonderful truth? But I think in some ways—I have a friend who says, awe can lead us—no, he says anxiety can be expressed either it can devolve into this wrestling or it can also be an invitation into awe. And so, I think what we feel in that lead up to Easter Sunday is a sense of the weight of what this thing is.

And that weight can press us down and say, I’m just a small human being. Who am I to carry this message? Or it can move into a space of awe, of this is massive and I’m only small but the mystery of it! I think in some ways that’s an invitation—a little bit of an invitation into a small part of the experience of what they experienced on the day, of what on earth have we been given to carry on this day?

We don’t even understand it, but we’re going to proclaim it anyway. And those women didn’t have a chance before they ran to tell the disciples to figure out what on earth they had just seen and to fully understand it. But they spoke with the joy of it anyway. And that’s the only thing I can do on Easter.

[00:17:16] Anthony: You were mentioning the context that aligns with Philippians, the emptiness that is there. And I think it was Barbara Brown Taylor—I once read her talking about how new life often starts in the dark, whether it’s a seed in the ground, a baby in the womb, Jesus in the tomb, right? So even when it’s dark about us, that may not be the true reality because beyond it is something beautiful.

And I sometimes hear people say, Mandy—and maybe you’ve heard the same—that the disciples abandoned Jesus at his death And there was abandonment, of course, but I also see the women going to him and being the evangelist, if you will, sharing this great message. Tell us about it.

[00:17:59] Mandy: Yeah. I know a lot of women who feel called to proclaim the good news are very encouraged by this passage, especially if they’re in contexts that don’t affirm them in their calling.

I’m really hesitant to say—because I always want to be welcoming to my brothers. And I never want to communicate from the pain of my experience as a woman in the church. And it’s hard for me to communicate from that because I also want to bring healing between men and women, and I don’t want to perpetuate all of the brokenness between men and women.

And at the same time, I think it is really good to share it is really painful to feel that calling and to not always be given an opportunity to share it.

But the interesting thing for me because I don’t know if I’ve shared this with you, but the denomination I was a part of in the US did not ordain women for leadership. And that was the seminary I went to and also the churches I served.

And so, I was the first female lead pastor among a communion of 6,000 congregations, which put me in a really, really difficult space as a young adult in college and then in the process—and I’m not an aggressive person. I’m not an ambitious person. I hate the limelight, I hate conflict. I’m a nine on the Enneagram if you care about those things. So it’s been incredibly painful for me.

But all of that is to say, the ways that—and I think if I’ve ever had abuse, it has come from ways that people have treated me in that whole context. But every single time somebody has not received me or has not treated me in the way that Christ would treat me or has not recognized what God is doing in me—and I’ve had some really painful experiences—every single time, it has been an invitation for me to talk to the Lord again and to say, who are you again? What are we doing here again? Who do you say I am again?

And for anyone who’s marginalized—which is not just along gender lines, but many different ways people are marginalized—it can be a really empowering experience if it becomes an opportunity for us to say once more, who are you again? Who am I again?

And so—I saw this in Covid too—when everything hits the fan, it’s often those who have been on the margins, for whom the system has not been functioning anyway, who actually have real leadership to offer in that space. And that’s how I see this passage. These women were not given much of anything really in the system. And so when the status quo falls apart, they have something that enables them to press through.

And so I think that’s just what wisdom for us to look for when—because at the moment, I think everything is hitting the fan, not just because of Covid, because of all kinds of factors that are bringing us to a place of crisis in the church and around the world.

So how do we listen to the voices who are saying, you know what? Before you were aware that the system was falling apart, it wasn’t serving me anyway, and I’ve had to function within the system according to the kingdom. How can we invite those people to be leading, as these women had the opportunity to, when Jesus was dying and coming back to life?

[00:21:18] Anthony: Amen and amen. And I want to say to you, Mandy, we don’t know each other, but I sure am thankful for you and admire you for especially saying yes to the invitation to be the first ordained women in your space. It’s a beautiful thing, and we thank God for your ministry.

Let’s move on to our next passage. It’s 1 Peter 1:3-9. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday of Easter, April the 16th, and it reads,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith—being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Although you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

“By his great mercy, he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” Wowzer!

I believe theology Mandy should lead us to doxology, that our God-talk should lead to God-worship. So help us worship the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ by exegeting this staggering statement from verse 3.

[00:23:16] Mandy: So let me read verse 3 again here. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his great mercy, he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

Yeah. It’s the center of everything that we are about, right? I love how the writers of the New Testament just break into praise and I love to imagine them—even though we are reading it on a screen or on a nice white piece of paper printed in beautiful text . I just love, if they’re writing it themselves or if they’re reading or speaking it aloud for an [inaudible] to write it all. Try to keep up and write it down as they go. I just love the thought of them, either way, the pen not being able to keep up with the words. They’re not just reciting a written doxology here. They are breaking into to genuine praise and being willing to share that.

If you received a letter with this kind of language, you would feel behind it the real worship of the person who was writing it. And even if I did receive a letter like this from somebody that I loved and trusted, I’m coming in after the end of a hot day, and I’m tired and I’ve got a letter in the mailbox and I’m opening up and I’m reading their words of rapture. And I’m like, oh my goodness, there’s some bills in the pile here as well. I think it’s good for us to give ourselves permission to not always be there with the person who’s writing these wonderful letters in the New Testament, but to choose to believe.

Oftentimes, I think that we have our theology backwards because we say, I’m going to try and think and think and think about this thing that I’m told in scripture is true: that we’ve already been given a new birth into a living hope, that because Jesus rose from the dead I should break into this kind of praise. We don’t feel the wonder of that on a regular basis, and it’s really hard for us to get our heads around it.

And I was raised in a tradition where we basically thought if you just keep thinking about it, if you just keep reading about it, then one day you might really understand it and then you’ll start to step into heartfelt worship. But what I actually have found is better, is to go in reverse: to live as if it’s true, to choose in practical ways to worship, to serve, to give as if these things have already been done for me. And somehow, it falls into place. Like the discomfort of living as if it’s true, actually allows you to experience it in a more genuine way.

Not all the time, of course, but it goes backwards (or it feels backwards) to say, how would I live if I really did believe that I’m already in this living hope through Jesus’ resurrection? And how might my stepping into it actually help me? The discomfort of that experiment might actually help me embrace it in more ways than hoping to understand it first.

[00:26:13] Anthony: Yeah. It often brings me to the Greek word for repentance. Metanoia is to think your way into a new way of acting. Whereas the Hebrew concept, teshuvah, is to act your way into a new way of thinking. And I think they work together. Sometimes we do need to have our minds renewed—to think our way into a new way of acting.

But I agree, sometimes you just have to do it. And it’s not necessarily “faking it till you make it”, but it is just stepping into that reality and seeing the miracles of God at your side.

Verse 6 informs us to rejoice while suffering. And sometimes, that’s a challenge, right? And so my question is, can lament and rejoicing be held together without contradiction? How does that work?

[00:27:02] Mandy: Yeah. I don’t know if we’re—I think you can do them at the same time, in a way, because my lament is usually growing from the joy that I have, that I can see what could be, that I’ve been promised—we’ve been promised.

God is making all things new, and we can see all the ways that things aren’t new yet. And so our lament somehow grows from our joy, from our desire to see that joy fulfilled. So I think there are always two sides of the same coin.

But for me, oftentimes, it comes in the order of what we see in the Psalms. That we are given permission by so many Psalms to just say, where are you, Lord? Are you even listening? Don’t you see the injustice? Don’t you see the brokenness? Are you watching? Are you hearing us?

And that is a kind of an emptying too. There’s a theme here, I think, that can feel like a kind of emptying. And if we don’t really believe in the filling that happens after we empty, then it just can feel like we’re just going into darkness. We’re just talking about hard things and we’re never going to emerge again.

And I often see this tension of, oh, we’re going to lose control if we lament, if we let people say what they’re really feeling then it’s just going to go down in a dark hole, and everyone’s going to be depressed. But I think when we lament in God’s direction especially, it’s not just complaining, it’s releasing. It’s emptying.

It’s trusting that there is somebody who actually cares about this stuff, who maybe even cares about it more than we do and who can take it when we beat on his chest, he’s not going anywhere.

And so something beautiful happens in that space because we do learn: oh, I’m not alone in this. Oh, God is not surprised by this. Oh, there is a space for me to be safe, to actually be honest and to share all the stuff that I’m just holding in. It’s really painful to feel a lot of pain, to feel frustration and anxiety, and to feel like God’s expecting us to just push it down.

To be able to release that, actually then (as we see in the Psalms of lament) they often turn into praise. They often return into natural rejoicing that was down there all along. Maybe it’s like I was saying before that we squash the Holy Spirit. Maybe the joy of the Holy Spirit is in us all the time, but it’s just so weighed down by the lament and we can access it once more when we let that lament come and be released to the Lord. And trust he can hold it and we don’t have to carry it on our own.

[00:29:33] Anthony: Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Emmanuel, God with us. That to me, that’s so reassuring and even in times where it feels like the fire is hot and the trials are coming fast and furious that God is with us, and he understands. We have a high priest who understands what it’s like.

Mandy, let’s go to our next passage of the month. It’s 1 Peter 1:17-23. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday of Easter, which is April the 23rd. Would you read it for us, please?

[00:30:06] Mandy: Yes. And this is my birthday, so it seems fitting that I would read this passage. Yeah, alright, here it is.

If you invoke as Father the one who judges all people impartially according to their deeds, live in reverent fear during the time of your exile. 18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish. 20 He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake. 21 Through him you have come to trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are set on God. 22 Now that you have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth so that you have genuine mutual love, love one another deeply from the heart. 23 You have been born anew, not of perishable but of imperishable seed, through the living and enduring word of God.

[00:31:11] Anthony: As I was listening to you read verse 19 about the Lamb of God, I was thinking about how I often want Jesus to show up as the roaring lion of Judah, the victor—which he is. But often the way that I experience him is as the lamb, broken for the world and for me. And I’m encouraged by that.

I just want to ask you what does it mean that God judges, all people impartially? And maybe as a tag onto that, how do we join in how he does this?

[00:31:40] Mandy: I think we often come to the word judge through our lens of the judicial system, that you’re engaging with an institution. And this is the judge’s job to do this. And in the Old Testament, the judges were spiritual leaders, people who sat in the gateway of the city. And if anybody had a dispute or a question or a problem, they sought the judges for their wisdom and for their discernment and for their mediation.

And I think we see God in a different way when we see God through this lens of judge, that this is not judgment in the sense that we think of it as in a legal sense. There’s a relational piece and a spiritual piece and a wisdom that we want truth. We want to be seen according to who we truly are.

And there are sometimes where I have been judged really harshly by human beings, and I want God’s judgment in that space because he knows what my heart really was. And there are other times where maybe I have got away with something when my motives were not good. And I need God to come.

This is the judgment he gives us even as we’re living, not just when we die. I want God to say, Mandy, that was not a good motivation right there. So either way it’s truth, and either way, it’s not for our damnation, but bringing us to the fullness of who God’s truly created us to be, to be our true selves and to reflect his goodness and his glory in ourselves.

So, it brings healing. This is the kind of judgment that ultimately brings healing and makes all things new. That’s how I try to see judgment.

And I think those who are in times of suffering as we see in books, especially in the New Testament, where there are people in oppression, they want to hear that those who oppress them—and we’re talking, blood’s flowing in the streets here. This is not just somebody teasing them. They want to know that there is a God who sees it and who will bring things to order. And so, I think we can judge them for writing such intense kinds of passages. And we see it in the Psalms too, where the psalmists are saying, God, will you come down from heaven and will you bring about judgment on this person who is oppressing me?

But maybe we don’t really understand what it feels like to be in that place of having someone who is a wolf at the door. And maybe if we were, we would also want that kind of God who can judge and make things right.

[00:34:09] Anthony: Yeah. We want judgment that’s healing, and therefore we see the vivid judgment of God at the cross. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, and he didn’t come to condemn the world but to save it through him. Hallelujah. Praise God.

Our theologian for today, Mandy, the apostle Peter, seems to believe that the purification of our soul should lead to genuine mutual love, experienced in kinship. So, my question for you is, how are we getting this right and how might we be getting it wrong?

[00:34:42] Mandy: Interesting. So actually, along the lines of what I was just saying as well, I’ve been really encouraged in recent years to be reading a little bit about the difference between the guilt gospel and the shame gospel.

So, folks who do ministry in places outside of Western culture often have to know this distinction between a culture that understands guilt and then the resolution of that is to have your sins forgiven in that usual sense that we talk about, the cross shaped bridge. We’re far from God because we’ve sinned and that’s definitely scriptural.

But in an honor, shame culture, which is often eastern cultures. And I think our culture. There’s been studies that have shown that our own Western culture is also becoming more this way. So this is not just something to learn when we go overseas anymore. They’re more—and this is getting to your question here—they’re more interested in shame and honor, which is a more relational thing.

So, the guilt thing, as I said earlier, can be more institutional. This is my personal sin, and I have been called up before this judge, and I have to be convicted or found guilty or innocent which is a personal, an individualistic kind of thing, whereas the shame on a culture is mostly to do with being outside of the community, being unacceptable somehow.

And this is actually how a lot of people come to understand their need for the gospel, that they feel not good enough for God. And so, if we are only evangelizing through the lens, oh, you know how you’ve sin. You’re a horrible person and you’re far from God. If they’re already feeling shame and excluded, then we have just made them feel even more that way by telling them they’re horrible people.

And there’s actually a great website, I think it’s just unashamed.com, where they’ve shared a lot of research along these lines, that the kinship is the thing that we are inviting people into. That scripture has lots of different ways of communicating what the gospel is to different cultures, and I think we’ve got stuck in that one way, in the guilt / innocence way.

But to understand the honor / shame way is to say, they often use more relational language, more communal language and family language. There is a family that you are being adopted into, and to be saved is to be welcomed once more. Again, you thought you were excluded, but you are included.

I think this is not just, oh, let’s all be friends so that we can feel warm fuzzies. But this is a salvation issue. This is a way that many people I know and myself as well, especially people who are marginalized. I think this is meaningful because they feel the shame of being excluded, of being marginalized. And for them salvation is Jesus has made it possible for you to be welcomed in and for you to be seen and known.

And kinship then is not just, let’s make friends but a salvation thing.

[00:37:33] Anthony: Yeah. I’ve often thought that salvation is best understood as belonging, which is relational. That you belong to God. And it’s good. He can be trusted. Come on in. The fire’s burning. Coffee tastes good. You belong here.

Our final passage is 1 Peter 2:19 – 25. It’s a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday of Easter, April the 30th.

For it is to your credit if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, where is the credit in that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval. 21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps. 22 ‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’ 23 When he was abused, he did not return abuse; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were going astray like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.

Jesus Christ, bore our sins in his body so that we could live for righteousness. As a Spirit-empowered response to this reality, Mandy, what does it look like to live for righteousness?

[00:39:19] Mandy: That’s a big question. Again, it’s a strange reality. Again, if I was going to be God, I would not say, oh, the way we’re going to solve this is by me. My wounds are going to be the thing that’s going to solve the problem.

But I remember being on a retreat once in Kentucky, which I think is where you are. Am I right?

[00:39:39] Anthony: I’m from Kentucky. I live in North Carolina now. Very close.

[00:39:42] Mandy: Down there at the Abbey of Gethsemane, which is an amazing place for a silent retreat, and I was really carrying some serious suffering and feeling like this was a sign God had forsaken me.

And in many ways, I think to quote Barbara Brown Taylor again, she actually makes a distinction between pain and suffering. So, pain is the actual experience that cannot be denied, and the suffering is our belief about that experience that God has forsaken us, which we see Jesus wrestling with.

And in many ways, that’s worse than the actual pain. We see that in Job as well. That yes, you can’t argue with what he’s lost. But the question that most of the book of Job is about is why. What does this mean about your relationship with God?

So, I was in that place when I went to this Abbey, and it’s a Catholic setting, and so there’s crucifix hanging on the walls everywhere you go. And in my Protestant tradition, we don’t usually have a Jesus actually hanging on the cross still.

And so, I just was like, geez, Jesus, you just hanging everywhere, suffering everywhere I go. And it’s a real bummer. And I’m here to try to rest, and I just don’t want to be confronted with your suffering everywhere I go. You’re really spoiling it. I’m trying to enjoy my lunch here, Jesus. And you’re just hanging there on the wall looking at me. And something changed in me, and I came to see—especially people who suffer all around the world have that crucifix on the walls of their homes because (as much as I understand why we want to have an empty cross) because he’s resurrected now.

When we suffer, I need to know I’m not alone. This thing that had been judgment, had felt like, oh, that’s a sign God’s forsaken you because you are suffering and he’s not. Instead, I came to see, the solidarity that he has with me, and I have with him in that place. That, as it says in this passage, if you endure when you do right and suffer for it.

Jesus’ faithfulness to the Father is what took him to the cross. He could have stopped any time. He could have just said, oh, just kidding. I’m not really the Son of God. I’m not really going to do miracles. He could have got out of it anytime he wanted to, but he just kept saying yes, every single day to the Father, and even when he knew what was coming. You can feel this heaviness upon him of obedience and of knowing what it’s going to take, where it’s going to take him.

And to just suddenly realize that is our story, that when we do right and we suffer for it, we have God’s approval. It’s not a sign that we are forsaken by God. It’s as even though we see Jesus cry out on the cross, my God, why have you forsaken me? I refuse to believe that was because the Father had actually forsaken him. I believe that it was because Jesus was lamenting, as we were talking about earlier, and that psalm that he’s citing from Psalm 22, I think everybody would’ve known it and would’ve known the whole Psalm.

Which is the wrestling of a person who is in absolute agony and who still chooses to see that God has made things possible. And the end of that psalm sounds very much like he has done it. That gives me great hope and for me to live for righteousness means living in a way that embraces the possibility that even when I suffer—I don’t do right as perfectly as Jesus did, but it often is my desire to serve and to obey and follow that gets me into painful places. And to trust that the righteousness there is knowing, even though I don’t feel it, that we have God’s approval in that place.

[00:43:21] Anthony: I was sitting in a sanctuary once with a dear friend who happens to be a professional theologian, and we were talking about Jesus on the cross that we were seeing in this sanctuary.

And I thought, why don’t we come up with a symbol of life, right? The resurrected life. And he said to me, for a lot of us, we need to know, we need to be able to look up and see this broken, battered body, that he gets us. He understands that we can trust that he knows, and he’s not apart from it. He’s in it with us.

And I thought, that’s hard to argue with. I’m glad that Jesus had his way with you as he was staring at you during this retreat to remind you of who he is and what he’s up to. And what we see he was up to, is he doesn’t return abuse for abuse.

We talk about the kingdom of God being an upside-down kingdom, that looks upside down to our experience. What we often see as abuse leads to future abusers. What can we learn and live as a result of what we see in Jesus?

[00:44:25] Mandy: Yeah, that’s a big question. And actually, I just want to add one thing to what you just said about looking for a symbol. And as soon as you said it, I just thought, I think we are the symbol. You know that?

We carry around the resurrection so that the world can see, and I’m reminded of the passage that says we carry in our bodies, the death of Jesus from Corinthians. We carry in our bodies the death of Jesus so the life of Jesus may be seen our in our bodies. So even though it feels like death, for us, it looks like life.

Most of the people I know who look most alive and who show the resurrection power, have died a lot, have suffered a lot. And that’s where the miracle is revealed, I think.

But yeah, to get back to the second question, oh my goodness, there’s so much I want to say about this, and I don’t think we have time.

But going back to what I was referencing earlier about the real ways that I have experienced abuse from fellow Christians (mostly related to gender stuff), that actually it’s been also the place where I’ve come to know the meaning of the gospel in more and more ways. Because my human tendency is to just push back and to just demand that person apologize or that person change.

And in a particular moment, I felt like there was somebody who was specifically standing in the way of something that I felt God calling me to do. And that’s a deeply painful place to say, yes, I want to obey God. But there are human beings who are saying, no, you are not called to that. And so, I just remember crying out to the Lord and saying, when will he learn? When will he change? Will God change his heart? Fix him. And I felt this almost physical pressure on me saying, Mandy, let it go.

And I was like, oh, not you too, God, not you, not another voice telling me, I just have to adapt to this painful situation, and I just have to suck it up and I just have to take it in. And honestly, it just felt like more of this oppressive, abusive experience that I was already experiencing. And he said, no, no, no, I’m not saying that you should give into this person or agree with this person. I’m saying let it go because I let it go and all of the pain that he experienced, and I suddenly just sensed the story in a different way of what God was doing on the cross because we don’t often give God much credit for having emotions.

And what if our rejection of him brought deep pain in him? That he had created something beautiful and given it to us and we had just ripped it out of his hands and said, we just want it and we don’t want you. And what if that broke his heart? And when somebody breaks our heart, there’s just this natural instinct that wants to take all that pain and roll it up in a ball and just hurl it in their direction.

We do that all the time. And this is what we’re talking about here. The kind of abuse just gets passed on and the violence just escalates. But what if instead God said, I’m going to take all that pain that I’m experiencing because I see how beautiful this was supposed to be, and you have just broken it.

And instead of just rolling it into a ball and throwing at us, he—like the cartoon characters like to swallow it and let it explode like a bomb. You see a cartoon character swallow a bomb and it explodes inside of them. What if he said, no, I’m going to let it just blow up inside of me.

This is real pain. And I felt this is what God was asking me to do. Not to deny the injustice, but to choose to say, I’m going to let go. I’m going to let my sense of indignation die in me. I’m going to let my want, my desire for vindication and revenge, I’m going to let that die in me. And honestly, it did feel like it was going to kill me.

I felt like I’m going to lose myself. I’m not going to exist anymore. Even if it doesn’t kill me physically, it’s going to kill my identity because for us to protect ourselves is a fundamental human instinct. But I felt the Lord say, but because I did it, I’m asking you to set aside your sense of right, of what you deserve, because I did it.

Oh, my goodness. Something happened that freed me from this little script I’d been in and I suddenly realized we were stuck. I’m stuck in a script here. Like you say this to me, I say that to you. We go back and forwards and it just goes round and round in a circle, and I just felt like I was suddenly drawn out of this cycle of whatever the script is that between men and women or between whoever’s always perpetuating. And I was able to say, ah, look at this space we’re stuck in. Look at this thing. I feel freed from it. I don’t need you to approve of me in order to do the things that God is calling me to do anymore. I hope one day you get it, but I’m going to just keep saying yes to God.

And I felt such a freedom and such a release. And it was really good news. Like it wasn’t just now I can do my job. It was like, ah, this is the hope of the gospel. This is the power that God has given us, that he’s asking us to die to what we think we need in order to actually receive what he’s offering us.

And it will feel like death. If you are taking poison, thinking all along that it’s helping you heal, the doctor is going to have a really hard time saying, actually that thing you keep putting in your body is what is killing you. If you believe that’s what you need to live, it’s going to feel like death to say, ah, I’m going to have to choose to stop taking this medication.

And it’s only after you take it that you start to heal, that you start to see, oh my goodness, the doctor was right all along, but it’s going to feel like death first. So that is what I’m learning and living. As I see how he broke the pattern of abuse and how he refused—oh my goodness, what a beautiful thing that this God who had been so wronged by us and continues to be so wronged by us, refuses to take it out on us and chooses to take in himself the pain of all of that so that we don’t have to bear what he would be righteous, what he would be justified in dealing out to us from his own deep pain of us rejecting him. So, praise God that he has taken on that pain within himself and somehow let it die in him so that he can come to us and receive us again.

[00:51:02] Anthony: You said because I did it, Jesus that is. He did it. He’s done it. And it reminded me of a statement that Richard Rohr made, that pain that is not transformed always gets transmitted. And what I hear you saying, (and I praise God for it) is he transformed it because, hey, Mandy, I did it. I did it for you and you get to do it with me. We are going to transform this.

And I’m so grateful for that and grateful for you. Thank you so much for being with us. I saw a statement you made on the socials recently where you said, when I see only seeds, may I speak of gardens. And I’m thinking for you, as you said early on, ministry’s hard.

It’s hard work. It’s tough. But I pray that the Lord will allow you the joy of walking through a lot of gardens with him in the quiet of the evening and see the beauty of what he is doing all around you.

Thank you for joining us, and I certainly want to thank a couple of people, Reuel Enerio, and Elizabeth Mullins, who do such incredible work with this podcast.

And Mandy our tradition here at Gospel Reverb is to end in prayer. And so if you’re willing, would you please pray for those who are listening?

[00:52:15] Mandy: Yes, of course.

God, we thank you for this crazy way that you have come to us, that you have invited us into. Thank you that you are the kind of God that we can trust to not abuse, to not oppress, that your power is the kind of power that empties.

And it’s so much unlike anything we see in the world and in ourselves. And so Father, we pray that you would invite us, that you would teach us, that you would show to us how to be more like Jesus. Thank you for modeling it yourself and not just talking about it, but for saying, okay, let me come and do it; let me be like you and let me show you what it looks like.

And Father, we need your help because we have so many other ways we’ve been taught to fill ourselves up and to be enough in our own strength, our education and our media and our culture. And everything around us says, no, if you empty, you’ll just be left empty.

But thank you, Lord for the miracle that when a human being empties in your direction, that there is something that you are then able to fill. Thank you that your Spirit has been promised to us, that you are already with us, that you are already just waiting to give us the insight and the vision and the direction, and the comfort and the courage that we need—maybe not the things that we think we need, but what we actually need.

So Lord, give us the courage to empty and trust that there is something that will fill us, something better than we were trying to fill ourselves with. We thank you for this promise, for this miracle that we have access to every single.

In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just F. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you!

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March 5 –Second Sunday of Easter PrepRomans 4:1-5, 13-17, “Justified”4:31March 12 –Third Sunday of Easter PrepRomans 5:1-11, “Peace With God”16:19March 19 –Fourth Sunday of Easter PrepEphesians 5:8-14, “Wake Up, Sleeper!”30:34March 26 –Fifth Sunday of Easter PrepRomans 8:6-11, “Spirit of Christ”43:18If you get a chance to rate and review the show, that helps a lot. And invite your fellow preachers and Bible lovers to join us!Follow us on Spotify, Google Podcast, and Apple Podcast....

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Dear Gospel Reverb listeners,We appreciate you! Due to circumstances beyond our control, the upcoming Gospel Reverb episode is delayed and will drop on January 15th. Please check back then to hear insightful Christ-centered commentary on lectionary-based Bible passages.If you get a chance to rate and review the show, that helps a lot. And invite your fellow preachers and Bible lovers to join us!Follow us on Spotify, Google Podcast, and Apple Podcast....

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Making Everything New w/ Julie Frantz Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The […] The post Making Everything New w/ Julie Frantz first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and […] The post The Welcome Mat w/ Al Kurzawa first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Dear Gospel Reverb listeners,

We appreciate you! Due to circumstances beyond our control, the upcoming Gospel Reverb episode is delayed and will drop on November 15th. Please check back then to hear insightful Christ-centered commentary on lectionary-based Bible passages.

If you get a chance to rate and review the show, that helps a lot. And invite your fellow preachers and Bible lovers to join us!

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Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and […] The post Left Behind? w/ Stephen Morrison first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Justified w/ Walter Kim Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion […] The post Justified w/ Walter Kim first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Gospel Priorities w/ Rex Dela Pena Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The […] The post Gospel Priorities w/ Rex Dela Pena first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and […] The post Humble Hospitality w/ Chris Breslin first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Lord of the Harvest w/ Anthony Mullins Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. […] The post Lord of the Harvest w/ Anthony Mullins first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and […] The post The Spirit of Truth w/ Jenny Richards first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Resurrection Fish Fry w/ Jeff McSwain Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill-seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s […] The post Resurrection Fish Fry w/ Jeff McSwain first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Extravagant Worship w/ Dan Rogers Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s […] The post Extravagant Worship w/ Dan Rogers first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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The Temptation of Jesus with Gary Deddo Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. […] The post The Temptation of Jesus w/ Gary Deddo first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of scripture, and that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s […] The post Gone Fishing! w/ Kenneth Tanner first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and Joseph Tkach Jr., retired GCI President and Board Chair, unpack these lectionary passages:

January 2 - 2nd Sunday of Christmas John 1:10-18 (NRSV) “The Word Became Flesh” (15:07)

January 9 - 1st Sunday of Epiphany Luke 3:15-17, 21-22 “Filled With Expectation” (31:04)

January 16 - 2nd Sunday of Epiphany John 2:1-11 “Fill the Jars!” (44:36)

January 23 - 3rd Sunday of Epiphany Luke 4:14-21 “Filled With Power” (50:18)

January 30 - 4th Sunday of Epiphany Luke 4:21-30 “Fulfilled” (59:32)

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Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and Mako Nagasawa, Founder and Executive Director of the Anastasis Center unpack these lectionary passages:

December 5 - Advent 2 Luke 3:1-6 (NRSV) “The Voice Crying Out” (9:54)

December 12 - Advent 3 Luke 3:7-18 (NRSV) “What Should We Do?” (21:49)

December 19 - Advent 4 Luke 1:39-45 “Blessed Are You!” (37:57)

December 26 - Christmas 1 Luke 2:41-52 “Lost and Found” (52:29)

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Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and GCI Regional Support Team Member, Ted Johnston,

November 7 - Proper 27 Hebrews 9:24-28 “Is It Real or Is It Memorex?” (6:20)

November 14 - Proper 28 Hebrews 10:11-25 “Confessing our Hope” (17:40)

November 21 - Proper 29 John 18:33-37 “What Have You Done?” (26:39)

November 28 - Advent 1 Luke 21:25-36 “Redemption is Drawing Near” (39:20)

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Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and guest, Dr. Marty Folsom, unpack the lectionary passages below. Dr. Folsom is a theologian with a trinitarian, incarnational, paracletic, and relational emphasis taught.

October 3 - Proper 22 Hebrews 1:1-4, 2:5-12 (NRSV) “Exactly!” (6:07)

October 10 - Proper 23 Hebrews 4:12-16 (NRSV) “Our Great High Priest” (19:41)

October 17 - Proper 24 Hebrews 5:1-10 (NRSV) “Better is Better” (30:55)

October 24 - Proper 25 Hebrews 7:23-28 (NRSV) “The G.O.A.T.” (47:29)

October 31 - Proper 26 Hebrews 9:11-14 (NRSV) “How Much More” (1:05:38)

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Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and guest, Lance McKinnon, unpack these lectionary passages:

September 5 - Proper 18 James 2:1-17 (NRSV) “Faith Without Works” (5:52)

September 12 - Proper 19 James 3:1-12 (NRSV) “Taming the Tongue” (20:45)

September 19 - Proper 20 James 3:13-4:3-8 (NRSV) “All the More” (41:47)

September 26 - Proper 21 James 5:13-20 (NRSV) “The Prayer of Faith” (51:56)

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Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and guest, Geordie Ziegler, unpack these lectionary passages:

August 1 - Proper 13 Ephesians 4:1-16 (NRSV) “Unity” (16:17)

August 8 - Proper 14 Ephesians 4:25 – 5:2 (NRSV) “Living the New Life” (34:23 )

August 15 - Proper 15 Ephesians 5:15-20 (NRSV) “Time’s A Wastin” (50:10)

August 22 - Proper 16 Ephesians 6:10-20 (NRSV) “More Than a Fighter’s Chance” (01:05:03)

August 29 - Proper 17 James 1:17-27(NRSV) “The Father of Lights” (01:21:40)

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One in Christ w/ Jeff Broadnax

Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and guest, Jeff Broadnax, unpack these lectionary passages:

July 4 - Proper 9 2 Corinthians 12:2-10 (NRSV) “My Grace is Sufficient” (04:23)

July 11 - Proper 10 Ephesians 1:3-14 (NRSV) “Chosen” (17:16)

July 18 - Proper 11 Ephesians 2:11-22 (NRSV) “One in Christ” (28:49)

July 25 - Proper 12 Ephesians 3:14-21 (NRSV) “Grounded in Love” (37:06)

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Small Potatoes w/ Kristen Deede Johnson

Listen in as host, Anthony Mullins and theologian, professor, and author Kristen Deede Johnson, unpack these lectionary passages:

June 6 - Proper 5 2 Corinthians 4:13 – 5:1 (Message) “Small Potatoes” (10:49)

June 13 - Proper 6 2 Corinthians 5:6-17 (NRSV) “Our Right Mind” (21:40)

June 20 - Proper 7 2 Corinthians 6:1-13 (NRSV) “The Day of Salvation!” (38:44)

June 27 - Proper 8 2 Corinthians 8:7-15 (Message) “The Heart Regulates the Hands” (54:52)

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