Fringe Legal: Recent Episodes
Abhijat Saraswat
The Fringe Legal Podcast is a collection of conversations with legal innovators on how to put ideas into practice. Each episode is a discussion with a change-maker who shares their ideas, insights, and lessons from their journey.
We sat down with Jeff Pfeiffer, Chief Product Officer at LexisNexis during ILTACON 2023 to get his insights on legal AI progress, hype versus reality, increased law firm adoption, and the importance of demonstrating tangible benefits.
Topics covered:
- Navigating the legal AI hype cycle
- AI’s potential to enhance legal workflows
- Growing law firm interest and hands-on exploration
- Avoiding the “trough of disillusionment”
- Real-world benefits driving adoption over hype
In this episode of Fringe Legal, host Abhijat Saraswat interviews Nnamdi Emelifeonwu and Feargus MacDaeid, co-founders of legal tech startup Definely.
Key Takeaways:
- Definely creates software plugins to simplify drafting, reviewing, and analyzing legal contracts in Microsoft Word using AI/ML.
- The idea originated from Feargus' need as a blind lawyer to access information in documents more easily.
- They validated demand with a scrappy prototype and early pilots despite its flaws.
- After leaving law firm jobs, their mission-driven approach focuses on access, efficiency, and transparency.
- Their blueprint for innovation includes launching an MVP, inclusive design thinking, gathering user feedback, and carefully leveraging AI.
- Maintaining ethics and reputation is central, not rushing new technology to market.
- When solving problems for underserved groups, solutions often benefit everyone.
- A framework for evaluating AI: accuracy and understanding real-world impacts.
Connect with Nnamdi Emelifeonwu
Connect with Feargus MacDaeid
Learn more about Definely
ESG (environmental, social, governance) factors have become essential considerations for companies seeking to manage risk, attract investment, and operate sustainably.
Yet myths and misconceptions persist around what ESG is and how best to approach it. This leads many legal teams to view ESG as an amorphous compliance exercise rather than a strategic priority.
Recently on the Fringe Legal podcast, Abhijat Saraswat interviewed ESG expert Kai Gray, CEO of advisory firm Motiv, to demystify ESG and offer practical guidance for legal professionals. In this episode, learn what ESG means and how legal teams can pragmatically prioritize it. Get clarity on ESG frameworks, strategic rollout, and avoiding common pitfalls.
Summary:
In this insightful episode of Fringe Legal, host Abhijat Saraswathas an in-depth discussion with India Preston, Director of Platform Solutions at legal tech startup Lupl. They delve into India's winding journey into legal project management, tactical approaches to driving adoption, and how to effectively challenge established processes.
India shares learnings and advice drawn from her diverse experiences - from helping build out Linklaters' LPM function from the ground up to make the leap to an early-stage legal tech startup. She provides a rare longitudinal view of how legal project management has evolved from a little-known concept in 2013 to a widely recognized, if still poorly understood, discipline today.
Key Takeaways:
- While LPM has gone from barely existing in 2013 to being commonly known today, there is still substantial room for education on how to apply it effectively. LPM principles empower lawyers to run matters like projects, but specialized LPM roles create incremental value on complex matters.
- Project management qualifications alone don't cut it for legal project managers to be successful. Soft skills to integrate smoothly with lawyers and legal teams are just as important, if not more so. Technical skills can be learned on the job.
- Identifying concrete problems that need solving is absolutely crucial before adopting any new solution or technology. Without an anchor in specific pain points, adoption will struggle no matter how exciting the new solution seems at first glance.
- Rollouts of new technology or processes should start small and be targeted before expanding more widely across a firm. The tendency may be to go big with a splashy firmwide launch, but this rarely succeeds.
- Resources like use case guides, template libraries, and informal user communities help drive adoption by making the novel feel familiar. However, these need to be grounded in solving real firm problems.
- Process mapping workshops - with the help of an unbiased external facilitator - can challenge status quo thinking and processes in extremely constructive ways. Just asking "why" repeatedly can unearth entrenched inefficiencies.
Actionable Takeaway: Start Small Before Going Wide
Explore in detail at Fringe Legal.
The guest this week are co-founders of New York-based Priori Legal. Basha Rubin, the company's Chief Executive Officer, and Mirra Levitt, the Chief Product Officer, met as classmates at Yale Law School and found Priori. Earlier this year, they announced a funding round of $15 million.
Priori works with in-house legal teams to connect legal departments with the right outside counsel for projects globally, saving them time and money.
We discuss Legal Tech trends, their origin story, raising funds a Women Founders, and the secret sauce for successful legal teams.
Legal operation teams have been increasing in popularity. In this episode, Liz Lugones and Sumi Trombley from Uplevel Opsshare why Legal Ops teams matter, why you should care, and how to leverage them to level up your legal team (in-house and at firms).
Uplevel Ops are offering a complimentary 30-minute consultation, you can find more here.
In the episode, we discuss:
- (03:12) Why should you care about legal operations (LegalOps)?
- (04:21) Law school vs. practice
- (08:12) Enabling fail-fast thinking in legal teams
- (11:11) It's not just about technology
- (16:32) Embedded in the organization
- (21:25) Creating space for creativity and ideas
- (28:38) Celebrating success
- (30:49) Gaining trust
- (34:25) Shifts in legal operations
Article referenced
Striving for Imperfection: The Complicated Relationship of Lawyers and Project Management by Sumi Trombley & Liz Lugones
Key quotes
(edited for a better reading experience)
People and lawyers want to be able to solve the problems of their clients, but in doing so, and what's the best way to do it doesn't always mean here's the legal answer. Maybe they're looking for optionality, a strategic partner, or they are looking to reduce the risk. Whatever the answer is, you have to talk to your business counterparts to be able to figure that out.The thing that Liz hit on was 'the therapy' - that aspect of legal operations is the bridge from getting to, I know the legal answer, to how do I deliver it to my client in a way that makes them happy and feel like they have the best result. Sometimes you're not likely to go to the person who's giving you the advice and say, "I don't like the way you're giving me the advice." You need a buffer, and that's the legal operations buffer. With that in place, you can express the problem. The legal ops professional can go share it as the buffer: "I'm generally hearing from these people, And here's what I suggest we start to do to help facilitate."Often, I believe people in the profession think that legal operations are putting technology in, right? Or you're putting a process in. And I feel like the conduit that legal offspring is legal ops is not all those things. Legal ops is a mindset that needs to happen in the culture of the org, for the department to get better. The buffer is the data coming out of the technology you put in there.About the guests
Elizabeth "Liz" Lugones, COO/Senior Advisor, UpLevel Ops
Liz has built and managed Legal Operations teams in various industries in both public and private companies over her 20+ year career. She excels in global project management and business reengineering, with particular expertise in process improvement, change management, cross-functional collaboration and team building, but her true passion is helping others find their own strengths and talents and harness them for the value of all.
Before joining UpLevel, Liz served as the Senior Director of Legal Operations at WeWork. Prior to WeWork, Liz served as Director of Legal Operations at a diverse range of companies, including UnitedLex, DXC Technology, Becton Dickinson, and MetLife. She also worked at Citigroup as Manager, Strategy and M&A.
Liz holds a BA in Political Science and Journalism from Rutgers University, is certified in Lean Six Sigma and fluent in Spanish. She is based in New Jersey.
Sumi Trombley, Senior Advisor, UpLevel Ops
Sumi Trombley practiced in law firms and in-house legal departments for more than a decade before coming to UpLevel Ops. Sumi previously served as Director, Legal at enterprise legal services provider Marshall Denning, LLC, where she managed and trained a team of junior and senior attorneys and developed and implemented resource optimizing processes for RFPs and pre-litigation disputes. She is known for her ability to provide strategic guidance and cost-effective solutions.
Prior to joining Marshall Denning, Sumi was Legal Counsel at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, serving as a de facto general counsel to top enterprise IT outsourcing accounts. She started her legal career at the law firms of Paul Hastings LLP in New York and Latham & Watkins LLP in DC, practicing corporate finance and securities law.
Sumi holds a JD from Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law, and a BA in Political Economy from Georgetown University. She is based in Maryland.
To supplement the release of the Fringe Legal no-code report, which provides 100s of hours of market research in 6-min, we speak with Jackson Liu, Chief Commercial Officer at Neota, about the state of no-code in legal.
During the conversation, we discuss:
- How firms are using no-code tools
- Leveraging no-code tools as a competitive advantage
- Focusing on the customer journey and adoption for long-term success
- No-code challenges
- Future of no-code
You can read the full No-code report at www.fringelegal.com/no-code-report/
On this episode with speak with Kai Jacob - Partner at KPMG and Co-founder of Liquid Legal Institute - about digital transformation and designing the future of law.
In the episode we cover (min.seconds):
- Introduction -> 0.20
- Enthusiasm vs adoption of technology -> 1.56
- Founding the think thank -> 3.24
- Facilitating cross collaboration -> 5.06
- Distributing projects equitably -> 6.04
- Designing the future -> 10.14
- Mental wellbeing -> 13.52
- Skills for future lawyers -> 21.54
- Being embedded with customers -> 27.12
Highlights from the episode
What is Liquid Legal Institute
We consider ourselves a collaboration community of doers. So we like to do stuff, everything that we tackle and that we focus on should lead very fast to a result. Not just talking, doing.Lack of collaboration in the legal market
...they helped us really to nail down the question of 'why is the legal market not collaborating'? That was a very interesting question because we are all sharing, we all do this together. We even have this concept of Co-opetition. Then why not work with competitors on something like setting standards? Why should we, in the legal market, cooperate? We are all making good money with this private wisdom that we have and built up over time. So why should we share? We also believe that without sharing, without creating true standards in the market, it will take ages to go through this digital transformation.Struggling with digital transformation
We see that people are really struggling with digital transformation. They first don't understand why all this is happening. They're missing the digital mindset.The idea that digital transformation is something positive. They do not get the link back to legal because, they are thinking that what we do is something that's handcrafted; it's something that relies on very special knowledge.We do a perfect job of creating the perfect, beautiful contract that nobody else understands. We see beauty. And we see our role in protecting our company and defending our companies, defending our client's interests. It's just that the other side doesn't understand it.So the digital aspect is that we need to get more out of this dormant contract that's archived in the file cabinet somewhere. To make it valuable information, accessible for the digital company that we are working in.The whole idea of digital transformation is to make information that sits somewhere in an unstructured format, deep in contracts, more accessibleWe miss a huge opportunity for our profession to sit at the C-suite table and contribute to the overall goals of the enterprise. Second, everything moves so fast. We are overwhelmed with the speed of change. And we need to understand that change is constant and it will never go back to a slow motion mode. It will not happen. It will be fast. So we need to learn how to become adaptable, call it agile, call it whatever, but we need to adapt fast to a changing world. We need first to understand what is digital, and second how to deal with that in an agile working model.About Liquid Legal Institue
The Liquid Legal Institute is an open and interdisciplinary platform for promoting a new way of thinking in the legal sector. Digitalization, new business models and technological innovations are currently changing all major industries worldwide. However, the legal sector has not yet benefited sufficiently from these trends. The Liquid Legal Institute was founded by seven experts from legal and business practice, design thinking, and computer science to close this gap.
Lawyers and firms have long struggled to find the right way to price their services.
The hourly billing model focuses on the amount of time spent on a matter, project, or case. This can often lead to inefficiencies and frustration for the lawyer and the client. Value based pricing is an alternative that takes into account the value of the service being provided rather than simply the time spent. It means that lawyers and firms are paid based on the results they achieve for their clients.
The incentive becomes focused on getting better results. Value-based pricing can also help build trust and improve communication between lawyers and clients.
However, that doesn't make pricing or pricing conversations any easier. In this episode, we go into the rabbit hole of pricing.
SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW: iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher
Special thanks to Paul Stroka of LexFusion for making the introduction to Keith.
Episode content
- Introduction and summary ➡ 1.24
- Power of buyer ➡ 4.30
- Power of supplier ➡ 7.34
- Elastic economic market ➡ 9.42
- Price discrimination ➡ 13.14
- Client sophistication ➡ 17.08
- Inflation and pricing for specialized services ➡ 23.46
- The next service delivery model ➡ 31.04
Here are some of our favorite takeaways from the episode (edited to be reading-friendly).
Value of work
One of the things that get ignored in discussions with clients or in the clients' calculus and how they determine what they're getting for the bills they're paying is that there's never a very accurate way of measuring the value that was captured from the services, and what the outcome was.It's always what was that bill? That bill is high. Maybe you bought a company, in an M&A scenario, that had subsidiaries or locations in highly regulated, highly risky territories - where there's a ton more work to be done. It's not an apples-to-apples kind of company. So you don't look at what I got for the price I paid? You're just saying the bills are higher now. Price discrimination
Ab: How do you demonstrate that we're going to charge you X, and it's worth more than X to you as an outcome?Keith: Price discrimination is the short answer to that. Not everything is worth the same amount. By nature, and this is not any judgment or me trying to take a position on the actual value or the value of the practitioners doing this kind of work. But by nature, there's a spectrum of complexity, and the stuff that's really complex on the highly complex side tends to be more scarce. There is a more scarce supply of people who can do it.On the opposite side, on a more commoditized side or the more routine side - it's not as complex, and there are more options to avail yourself of to do that work. Client sophistication - apply the scalpel, not the hatchet
My particular role is to ensure that the firm is as profitable as possible and that we're making our clients as happy as possible in terms of service delivery models and getting the outcomes they want.
The conversation with the client depends on the level of sophistication:
I'd say architecting and implementing some of those solutions depends on the sophistication that the client or the person on the buy-side has. There are only so many levers in this business in terms of what I can do. It's all about service delivery models and the underlying economics. This isn't astrophysics. There are not huge, massively complex data jobs in most cases (there are some benefits to that in different scenarios).There are a couple of levers on who's going to do the work and how much they have to do, what's the cheapest way to do it, and what the outcome will be. How do those things correlate (the price to the product)? Having those conversations with people that understand that better is important.I've worked with several legal operations groups where they have the knowledge, the understanding, and the sophistication. Still, there's a gap in the level of influence they have over the in-house attorneys...
Different sides of the table, same challenges:
We have very similar challenges - in-house and the law firm side - as it relates to getting the lawyers to understand the economics, the process, and to engage attorneys with it - to really adopt it. As opposed to, 'Yeah, but I'm skeptical of that because I don't understand it. So let's just do it the old way.' Next service delivery model
Where can I get efficiencies out of technology? Which is a hugely growing market, that's going to be the new paradigm shift. It's going to be a much more dynamic service delivery model...Given that we've got a shortage of supply of people with the requisite skills to do a lot of this work and that's why we have to charge more. They [the attorneys] also have been working ridiculous man hours, and that's why we have to pay more for that. On top of that, there are obviously the mental health and quality of life concerns which is why a lot of people leave the workforce.I've been trying to make the case, and we work with our innovation group a lot, too, with several different teams internally to say: 'if you don't want people burnt out, you want them to have a better level of work-life balance and job satisfaction. Don't force them to brute force their way through everything all the time.'If you can get 30% more productivity out of the same people and let them sign off at seven or eight at night and use some tool that scales their productivity and delivers efficiencies then do it. You still get the same outcome, you just don't have to have as much input to have the same output. Resources mentioned
- Off The Clock Podcast
- Porter's Five Forces and a deeper look at Buyer Power
- 🎧 Janet Stanton – Benefits of a Strategic Client Management Program
- 🎧 Rasmeet Charya – Using technology to maximize the value of legal services
- Smart collaboration for lawyers and law firms with Dr. Heidi Gardner
About Keith Maziarek
Keith Maziarek has been building and leading legal services pricing/legal project management/profitability functions since 2009. He is currently Director of Pricing and Legal Project Management at Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP, where he is responsible for building and scaling the firm’s formal pricing and legal project management functions. Prior to Katten, Keith served as Senior Director of Client Value for Perkins Coie LLP, working closely with the client legal operations executives to develop collaboration strategies to improve operational efficiencies. Keith’s career in strategic pricing began at DLA Piper LLP, where he built the firm’s strategic pricing, profitability and legal project management functions as the firm’s first Head of Strategic Pricing. He previously worked in strategic business development, helping establish a deep understanding of clients’ business needs.
Keith is a Board Member and Officer of Legal Value Network, a legal operations, pricing/project management and process improvement industry group focused on evolving the legal service delivery model. He frequently speaks at industry events and publishes articles on related topics. Keith earned his M.B.A. from the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University and a B.S. in Business Management from the University of Illinois-Chicago.
Leading teams during times of crisis presents a unique challenge. Many of which are multiplied when you are a startup and the team was only formed months ago.
And then, overnight, everyone suddenly felt very fragile. It's a unique feeling and unique in a bad way because suddenly you have no idea what to do. And the feeling is that you're very lost.Yet, that is exactly the challenge that faced Alex Tsepko, CEO of Lawrina - a website that provides useful content and productivity tools for lawyers. The entire team for Lawrina was in Ukraine, and things changed overnight as the country was invaded.
Lawrina CEO, Alex Tsepko, speaks about his experience leading a newly formed team through a sudden crisis - the invasion of Ukraine - and finding growth through a shared vision.
In this episode, we cover (timestamps in parenthesis):
- Introduction (0:20)
- Ukraine as a hub for IT innovation (1:38)
- Experiencing unexpected crisis as a young organization (3:22)
- Leading through a crisis (6:08)
- Finding growth through a shared vision (11:57)
Recognizing that it wasn't possible to continue doing anything the old way, Alex ensured that his team was safe and pivoted to continue working to execute their vision. The business went from a domestic play to having an international group with traffic growing 35%+ each month.
As Alex shares, "it was not easy," but the team came together during a time when they felt fragile to build something they believed in.
Alex Tsepko is the CEO of Lawrina.com. You can connect with Alex on LinkedIn.
If you like the show, then I know you'll love the Fringe Legal newsletter which is full of interviews, articles, and reports to help Legal innovators like yourself learn how to put ideas into practice and find success. You can sign up for free at FringeLegal.com.
What role does creativity play in a law firm and legal practice?
"You can be creative in any industry and anything that you do. Creativity is a mindset. It's being open to new ideas, new trends that diversity of thought, as we mentioned, being willing to experiment and try things, seeing things through a different lens than people typically do.
To me, that's what creativity really is. It doesn't mean you have to invent something new and be insanely innovative. It just means you can look at a lot of things that are out there and say, 'Hey, you know what? That's interesting. Maybe we can use that somehow.'"
In this episode, we cover:
- The role of creativity in law firms
- The increased focus on pricing
- Why firms are struggling with being client-centric
- What will make future firms successful
- Marketing as an underutilized superpower
Read the Fringe Legal newsletter which includes additional commentary on each of the topics.
About Dale Miller
Dale Miller is a Business Development and Marketing strategist with 20 years of experience and expertise in professional services firms, the advertising industry, and technology startups.
She has held Director of Marketing and Business Development positions at regional and international firms, in the legal and financial industries, leading strategy, content, business development, and strategic partnerships. Dale is currently a Practice Development Manager at Holland & Knight.
Prior to her work in legal, Dale founded and ran businesses, including a marketing consultancy and her talent agency, Miller Creative Partners, which represented photographers and directors, and worked with national ad agencies and their blue-chip clients.
She has served on the Board of Lawyers for the Creative Arts, and is an active member of Northwestern University’s Law and Technology Initiative.
Matt Coatney is a seasoned C-level product and technology executive, entrepreneur, advisor, author, and speaker with 25 years of experience helping businesses and technology work better together. He has led divisions and portfolios for large global corporations, co-founded three companies and advised several others, been an early-stage employee of two successful tech startups, advised dozens of business and technology professionals across all stages of company formation and growth, and launched over a dozen successful products.
Episode content
- The future of work ➡ 03.34
- How would work be delivered in the future ➡ 04.52
- Legal matters as projects ➡ 05.51
- (Alternative) career paths for lawyers ➡ 07.36
- The role of technology in the delivery of legal service ➡ 09.27
- Why change now? ➡ 12.17
- Disrupt the status quo ➡ 14.46
- Are you profitable? Pricing analytics at law firms ➡ 15.59
- Experience Management, BD, and contract analytics ➡ 17.41
- Learning from adjacent industries ➡ 20.24
- Making inclusion work in a hybrid world ➡ 32.13
Resources mentioned
- The Human Cloud Book
- Human Cloud Podcast
- Joyce Tong Oelrich on law firms as a subscription business
Subscribe to Fringe Legal for deeper insights from each episode
Technology is a frequent topic of conversation. It comes up almost every single episode. And while it's fun to talk about amazing new tools or features, ultimately, you have to tie the tech back to the business strategy. Easy to say, difficult to execute.
It's harder still when tracking and working with emerging technology, where there may not yet be a baseline for success. We tackle those points and so much more in the episode today.
Episode content
- What is IncuBaker ➡ 2.46
- Watching the market ➡ 4.04
- Client needs ➡ 5.03
- Tracking 500+ legal tech companies ➡ 6.17
- Tying tech to business objectives ➡ 7.29
- A process-driven approach to technology selection ➡ 11.30
- Working with Vendors ➡ 16.22
- Working with emerging technologies ➡ 20.31
- Validating ideas ➡ 23.46
- Market trends ➡ 32.31
For more detailed notes visit www.fringelegal.com
On the podcast this week, I speak to Quddus Pourshafie, co-founder of antiCPD a new training business looking to flip the necessary evil of CPD on its head. They have a bold vision:
Essentially, we want it to be the most AntiCPD CPD training you've ever seen. CPD is one of the least favorite activities of any lawyer, right? It's something that must be done, but no one particularly enjoys that period of time. Or if it's spread throughout the year most people tick it off. It's a checkbox item. And now that it's virtual and prerecorded people can freely fall asleep... So that's one aspect that we wanted to completely blow out the water.
In this episode, Ab speaks with Azman Jaafar, Managing Partner and one of the founding members of RHTLaw Asia on how legal technology can drive success in a law firm.
This episode is a special segment to the article "How Legal Tech Innovation Can Drive Success in Your Firm" which was published in the Singapore Law Gazette in October 2021.
I don't think we thought that it was going to be as tough of a sell because most of our clients that we have worked with and that we know very well and know how they sell, how they operate, they're all SaaS companies. So they all sell, software as a service, which is a subscription model. And we thought this would be something that, of course, they would understand the benefits of it because they're saying to their customers, here's the benefit of a subscription. It's really hard, for the legal field to turn that corner because law traditionally has already been 10 steps behind in terms of technology. Compared to even the largest, corporate companies. So law firms are already lagging in that way. And to throw this at in-house counsel, we were overly optimistic to think that they would swarm to adopt this idea.
Joyce Tong Oelrich is the co-founder of the recently launched boutique, Tong Tejani PLLC, specializing in government contracting.
Prior to the launch of her practice, Joyce was an in-house attorney at Facebook and Microsoft Corporation for nearly a decade, focusing on government contract compliance.
In this episode, we explore why Joyce left to start her own firm, and how she, together with her Partner, created a firm with a difference.
Resource mentioned
Paul Graham on 'do things that don't scale'
Julia Salasky is the CEO of Legl, a digital workflow tool for law firms.
"Solving problems that are fundamental to the way lawyers work enables lawyers to focus on the work that highly skilled professionals that they are can do best. I don't have a view as to whether in five years or ten years or 25 years, you can train AI to do those jobs, but the work that lawyers do is so varied, so technical, and so human-centric that enabling them to do that work in a way that allows them to focus on the highest value piece of that is where there's a real opportunity in this space."
Adolfo E. Jiménez is a Miami litigation attorney whose practice focuses on international disputes. Mr. Jiménez leads Holland & Knight's South Florida Litigation Practice Group, which consists of more than 80 attorneys, and also leads the firm's International Arbitration and Litigation Team. He is Board Certified in International Litigation and Arbitration by The Florida Bar. He handles general commercial litigation matters in federal and state courts. His international experience, language abilities and management skills provide innovative and comprehensive representation to clients involved in complex cases.
We've spoken with technologists and innovators during previous podcast episodes, and this week we talk to a practitioner. In the show, we cover:
- what does a day in the life of Adolfo look like
- the impact of virtualization on the arbitration world
- benefits of multiple perspectives and how it can help stay updated
- thinking long term, and staying client centric
Find out more at the Holland & Knight website and on LinkedIn.
Anna Lozynski is an award winning executive general counsel & author, turned Change Agent, Advisor and Influencer.
Starting out at a major Australian law firm, she has spent the majority of her legal career in-house working in the banking, automotive, and cosmetics industries. In 2021, Anna has donned her entrepreneurial shoes and launched her own Advisory service, on a mission to help law and business adapt to the digital age. She is consulting in the areas of social media content creation, strategy & partnerships, legal ops/optimisation, change management, as well as coaching and general counsel freelancing.
She believes that innovation is invigorating, change is energising and efficiency will never go out of fashion.
In addition, she is an Advisory Board Member to Mys Tyler (a fashion tech startup), She Breaks The Law (a global female innovator network), and sits on the CLOC (Corporate Legal Operations Consortium) Australia Chapter.
Described as a change agent, Anna is a sought-after commentator, mindset coach and consultant both domestically and internationally – seeking to shift the dialogue in order to propel the corporate world forward.
You are invited to join Anna’s online communities @legallyinnovative and LinkedInas well as @annaloz on Clubhouse. You can also download a variety of products, and read Anna’s blog here: https://annalozynski.com/
I spoke with Matthew Waldman (Founder, San-Q, and Professor Keio Graduate School of Design) and Ruben Fernandez Vela (Senior Researcher, Samcara research lab) on transformation and innovation lessons from designing next-gen cities.
This was a fascinating chat, and much of the ideas we discussed could very easily be extrapolated for firms, in-house teams, indeed any business.
Here are three things I took away:
- Planning for obsolescence and avoiding in-action
- Balancing decision making and privacy
- Fostering innovation is simple
Other resources mentioned during the episode
- Samcara circular design lab
- San-Q consultancy
- Professor Matthew Waldman on LinkedIn
- Ruben Vela on LinkedIn
- Laying the foundation for Smart Cities
- What's fueling the smart city backlash?
- Carlos Moreno talks about the 15-minute city
- Beyond Tech - The True Meaning of a Smart City
So Legal is coming late to the party on some of this, but at least it arrived very well dressed because we get to now pick and choose some of the best parts of project management, change management transformation, continuous improvement.Peter Dombkins is a national leader in legal transformation, legal operations, and the project management of legal professional services. He has received awards from the Financial Times and AIPM for change and legal practice management. Peter is Australia's first Adjunct Associate Professor in Legal Transformation, at the University of NSW Faculty of Law. Peter is also the Director for New Law at PwC Australia.
During the episode, we discuss:
- Is there a revolution coming to the legal profession?
- A brief history of changes in how professional legal services are offered from 1950 to - present day. Including the trend of appending “legal” in front of many things.
- What is Legal Project Management, and how most lawyers are are already putting it into practice?
- What is transformation, and the difference between simple and complex transformation?
This episode is a treasure trove of resources. Here are various things that were mentioned or discussed:
- Peter on LinkedIn
- Legal Project Management: Projectifying the Legal Profession
- What's wrong with your transformation initiative? (ILTA Whitepaper)
- Cognitive Bias Codex
- Expectancy Theory
- Yerkes-Dodson Law
- A reflection on Thomas Kuhn's - The Structure of Scientific Revolution
Mouthpiece Law is a student-run not-for-profit. As the world’s first legal education & technology platform, they connect and empower law students and legal professionals to form a legal aid task force and address legal needs through low-cost legal services.
Avinash Pillay is the COO and Chief Legal Engineer at Mouthpiece Law.
Len Hickey is an IP lawyer and founder of Litigaze a case evaluation tool for modern legal teams that enables the evaluation of complex cases using intuitive visual planning.
You can find out more about Litigaze at and connect with Len Hickey on LinkedIn.
Elani is a leader in building high-growth startups through streamlined operations. After earning her master's from King's College, London, and serving more than two years at the Peace Corp. Elani spent almost a decade helping emerging tech companies develop, optimize and scale their operations marketing, and people processes. Elani is now the venture program manager at MDR Lab.
Topics
- What is MDR Lab (1:55)
- Three different arms of MDR lab (2:33)
- Build vs buy - which gives you the biggest return on your investment (3:54)
- How does MDR decide which companies to have in the accelerator? (5:12)
- How the Launch program works (8:13)
- What is MDR Lab's strategy when it comes to investment (13:50)
- The MDR Lab Venture Studio (16:05)
- The long term strategy for MDR Lab (16:38)
- Emerging tech (19:56)
- How Elani keeps up with what's going on (23:38)
- Building a community around MDR Lab (25:30)
Full transcript of the episode can be found at FringeLegal.com
Resources mentioned
- The Lawyer - Horizon Newsletter
- Y Combinator
- MDR Lab
- Strictly VC
- Nate's news
- Elani on Twitter
Jim Chiang is the founder of My Legal Einstein, an AI-powered legal contract review tool.
“So when you think about a time the value of that to actually have that much of a limiting factor in terms of getting to some point of value, you could have done a stand why Legal AI hasn't really gained a huge amount of adoption. So My Legal Einstein really is intended to have a user who never actually has heard of My Legal Einstein.They actually go onto a site, they register, they log in and then they get you to try our algorithms against any of their contracts that they actually see. And our proof of value is very instantaneous and assess that as soon as they actually find ways to navigate their own contracts, to try it on their own contracts and be able to gain value from it when things that they actually might've missed come up very much in an instant.
And when you talk to you about time to value for AI solutions, you really want to make sure that they get to the aha moment where they say, ‘Oh, I miss something’. And that light bulb goes on. And that basically means that the AI has helped them to find something that they have missed before and that's a huge moment for us.”
You can subscribe to the newsletter for free at FringeLegal.com/newsletter.
Show notes
- Jim’s background and introduction to My Legal Einstein (01:33)
- How is My Legal Einstein different from other AI contract review tools (04:18)
- The challenges with delivery value, and how Jim approaches it (09:30)
- Algorithmic differentiation (12:08)
- Why focus on third party document (15:03)
- Future plans (18:28)
“So my Legal Einstein really caught, differentiates a lot of punch for the pre-execution space because we're not really trying to be a better attorney. I would not try to tell the attorney what to do, but we actually tried to augment the attorney’s intelligence in terms of being able to address a lot of the intelligence and aspects of the mundane aspects”. The full transcript for the episode is included below. If it is cut by your podcast player, you can find it at www.FringeLegal.com
Parul Patel is the founder of Fuel and Move, a consultancy that helps Partners of law firms and General Counsels develop their teams and lawyers for performance optimization.
“So performance optimization means that you're delivering at a high level of performance, but you're not, it's not coming at the expense of exhaustion burnout, a lot of these things that we see quite prevalent within the legal sector.”
“So we're just focusing on the technical skills and the technical knowledge and forgetting really about: when greatness shines, greatness comes from the inside, from each individual. So yes, you've got the common skills, the common knowledge of the law, and really clients expect that as standard.
It's not that you get any bonus points for knowing the law, right? Your clients expect that, and technical knowledge and technical skills are expected as standard. That level of excellence is expected as standard.
Once you've got your job and you're in the legal sector, you have to ask yourself: I’ve got myself in the room; how am I now going to shine in the room.”
You can subscribe to the newsletter for free at FringeLegal.com/newsletter.
Show notes
- Introduction to the podcast (01:02)
- Defining performance and performance optimization (02:43)
- The importance of training - similarities between lawyers and elite athletes (08:31)
- Technician vs a leader (13:06)
- Issues with progression paths (17:02)
- Designing immersive and impactful training programs (25:09)
You can connect with Parul on LinkedIn or via Fuel and Move.
Why successfully introducing artificial intelligence in legal tech is a challenge
Matthew Golab is the Director of Legal Informatics and R+D at Gilbert + Tobin. He leads a specialized in-house multidisciplinary legal informatics team that utilizes a variety of data analytics and eDiscovery, and other AI technology tools. Matthew has more than 20 years of experience in the legal technology industry, including two of Australia’s preeminent law firms.
If you've been in the legal profession for any amount of time, then I'm sure at some point, someone will have told you that there are nuance problems, it's very different, and things are difficult to change. What are you buy into that across the entire legal tech ecosystem, looking at problem-solving in legal when it comes to AI, there are some unique challenges. And I'm excited about this episode because we explore some of those challenges today. Before we get started, do note that during the conversation with Matthew, we jumped straight into the deep end, right at the beginning of the conversation.
However, both Matthew and I make a concentrated effort to de-mystify as much of the jargon as we go through. And during the episode, we really do tackle why are artificial intelligence problems so difficult to solve when it comes to Legal use cases? Why don't we have better-performing models? Why don't we have models that actually work on any number of different data types or different types of documents or languages? Especially if you look at things like what's happening in the consumer world, or if you look at even other business verticals where things just seem to be much much further ahead. Why does it feel that the legal profession is still a long way behind?
We tackled that and a lot more. I don't promise that we have all of the answers, but certainly, we have a healthy discussion into why things are the way they are and what needs to happen to bring about change in the future.
Before we dive in, if you haven't subscribed to my newsletter, please do so. As part of the newsletter, I actually provided some additional commentary to supplement this episode, specifically discussing how things like synthetic AI are being used in other industries where there are similar challenges in the form of small data sets with little variations.
You can subscribe to the newsletter for free at FringeLegal.com/newsletter.
Show notes:
- Introduction to the podcast (0:28)
- The deliberate use of language in legal vs. general language training sets (4:51)
- NLP, NLG, and NLU (7:08)
- Overview of the AI development process (9:49)
- The deliberate balance to be achieved when introducing technology to lawyers (13:22)
- High-risk tolerance as a barrier to continuous learning (15:09)
- The general sentiment about AI and the future (17:08)
- The challenge of working with different jurisdictions and languages (22:34)
- Training a specialist system vs a general-purpose system (26:37)
- The biggest improvement in tech within law firms (29:17)
You can connect with Matthew on LinkedIn, or find him on the G+T website.
Rasmeet Charya is the Chief Innovation Officer at Algo Legal. As Chief Innovation Officer, Rasmeet brings a strong passion for transforming how law firms and lawyers work with clients and think about innovation. From understanding problems, curating ideas, and facilitating innovation processes, Rasmeet leads a team that focuses on analyzing how technology can be used by the firm to enhance transparency, increase access, create efficiencies, and offer a new brand of service.
Algo Legal is a new law firm, established in 2019, and the firm has started with a strong foundation in technology.
As they got started the leadership wanted to create a new brand of legal services, driven by technology and innovation, and utilizing a process-driven approach to deliver a unique experience for their clients.
During my chat we explore how:
- How to apply a process-driven approach to your practice
- Different ways in which Algo Legal has been involved in the community via law schools and supporting startups
- How the Algo team pitches their process-driven approach, embedded with technology to clients
You can connect with Rasmeet on LinkedIn, and find out more about Algo Legal on their website.
The full transcript is included below. If it’s truncated by your podcast player, you can find it in full at www.fringelegal.com
Transcript
Ab: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to Fringe Legal I'm delighted today to have Rasmeet Charya, as my guest Rasmeet is the chief innovation officer at Algo Legal based in India. Rasmeet brings a strong passion for transforming how law firms and lawyers work with clients and think about innovation from understanding problems, curating ideas, and facilitating the innovation process.
[00:01:27] Rasmeet leads a team that focuses on analyzing how technology can be used by the firm to enhance transparency, increased access, create efficiencies, and offer a new brand of service. Rasmeet so nice to have you on the show. Thank you for joining me.
[00:01:43] Rasmeet Charya: [00:01:43] Thanks. Abhijat thanks for having me on the show.
[00:01:45]Ab: [00:01:45] I'm excited for this conversation because Algo Legal is a newish law firm. So in the last two years or so and that means that there's a lot of exciting things that you are doing and that you're able to really start from scratch. So I'm quite I'm looking forward to digging into that.
[00:02:04] Rasmeet Charya: [00:02:04] Yeah, sure. Algo Legal started in August, 2019, And as you would see on our website Algo Legal is a firm where we started with a niche practice of picking up of VC and PE by VC. The venture capital Lando equity related transactions, deal management.
[00:02:26] And from there, we also definitely went into advisory and the entire ecosystem related to that kind of practice. Algo Legal name gets its inspiration from the word algorithms. So primarily we definitely believe that the practice of law is in a way , very similar to when an algorithm wherein, you can actually define a lot of steps processes, and that's what leads to a very solution oriented approach.
[00:02:57] So that's how we came up with the Algo Legal as a name. And definitely it was coined by Sandeep, who is the founder and the managing partner of Algo Legal. And Sandeep himself is a thought leader in Legal tech industry. He's a very innovative and an excellent business lawyer. And definitely he wanted to create a new brand of legal services, which is very much driven by technology, innovation, and so that, we can provide a very unique experience and create some value for our clients. So that was the entire I would say the background, the mission, vision of Algo Legal and definitely expertise is one of the key area. We have a whole lot of sport lawyers, I would say, are really industry experts in the practice areas.
[00:03:49] But at the same time, we would like to leverage technology as the, as innovation so that we can create a very different kind of value for it.
[00:03:58] Ab: [00:03:58] Yeah. And I think what I found really interesting as I spoke to you in the past and as a research, the firm is the makeup of the core team, right?
[00:04:09] There's of course the practitioners, like Sandeep that you mentioned, but also there's business leaders and specialists. So if you look at, Drhuv who came from an investment banking background, if you look at Tripti, who is a legal process and design manager and others. So I think it's quite refreshing to see how, you're already from the very foundations of the firms starting to think about legal process we need to build in things like design and design thinking, approaches into the offering. And I guess that's one of the big advantages when you start afresh, when you are able to do that. And I know from your background as a practitioner, but also a lot of the things that you take an interest in and are outspoken about.
[00:04:49] There is a strong foundation in client service and design and focus on the process. How does that reflect with the broader market view of where India is today?
[00:04:58] Rasmeet Charya: [00:04:58] Absolutely. I think we definitely have an advantage that we started very recently. And we are actually in a time when we feel there is a lot of requirement of leveraging technology and why not? We see that technology is being leveraged across all industries and why Legal industry cannot take it up.
[00:05:19] And of course, innovation is something which is a very wider scope. That includes your practice innovation that includes looking at your business models. That includes literally things like defining your processes. And definitely once you are able to define your process, Or you can translate that into technology.
[00:05:37] So I feel we are in a very good phase of a Legal industry, I would say at the time and yes India, while it is at a very nascent stage in terms of Legal tech, which is being developed in India. But I don't see that we are very far behind because I'm in once the lawyers start adopting, accepting technology, I don't see why they can't focus and then actually hone the entire service offering that you're doing.
[00:06:12] So therefore, from the India's perspective, also, we are having some very. Excellent. Legal tech solutions, which are coming up and also, I think , it is evolving at every level. So whether it is in terms of the law firms, leveraging technology or changing their practices whether it's in terms of law schools, what actually opening up now to, except this Legal innovation or tech skillsets as a very important part.
[00:06:40] Of the legal education for our future lawyers, I think. And even if you look at the in-house legal teams, they are also the corporates they have been using, but today they want to S look at the cost, and they definitely want better efficient systems that they can manage on their own.
[00:07:01] So therefore I think the entire ecosystem is today ready for this kind of a change, this kind of innovation. And I suppose we are in the best place because of that.
[00:07:12] Ab: [00:07:12] Yeah. And of course your background, part of that is with LPs, with Legal process, outsourcing. And that's an area that is full and, by design has to leverage technology.
[00:07:22] You mentioned that it's becoming more prolific my words for technology to be part of the student's studies. I know the firm and you've been closely involved in the community as well. And we'll talk about some of the other community programs in a bit, but talk to me a little bit about. The part you took in a course that was live, I think in December 20, 20, I believe where you worked with students in India, educating them about Legal technology.
[00:07:48]What was the inspiration for that? And what was the outcome there?
[00:07:52] Rasmeet Charya: [00:07:52] Yeah at Algo Legal, from the very beginning we have been doing Legal tech internships. We have been inviting students from different universities and, giving them this experience in the Legal innovation department.
[00:08:07] So that is one aspect. Second was of course our own lawyers, the young lawyers were joining us or those who were already practicing with us. I suppose we, we experienced that. From the law school background also, they were never taught these skills or I would say the Legal Decker innovation areas and went back to seeing across the country or abroad in different forms.
[00:08:33] They wouldn't get that experience. So therefore we thought that it is very important that while we say that we have via practicing, we are actually implementing all of the Legal tech innovation concepts specifically the projects we are doing, every single thing. It is very important that we should take this initiative of sharing our knowledge with the law schools or with the young lawyers.
[00:08:59] And again, I suppose a while each one of us across the legal industry values this, but they're not many people who knew how to do it. And since we are doing this day in day out in our practice, we have that experience across the years, we're able to be helpful. I think it's very important and also a part of our responsibility to actually share this knowledge with a future lawyers.
[00:09:24] So that is where we thought that, okay. Yes. Now we should also, collaborate and definitely this was a kind of a exercise wherein we created a complete course, which was across eight modules. And we had come up with every single part of innovation, whether it is related to processes technology, why innovation is important.
[00:09:48]How do you scope your projects? How do you do project management? So we took them through at least the basics and understanding of how it works and what you can expect when you're actually going at going full back into the legal industry. So that was the whole context and background, why we thought that we should be going ahead.
[00:10:08] Ab: [00:10:08] Yeah. And it sounds amazing because I remember from my law school days, one of the things that's so different is. The what you're learning is often going to be so different to practice. And, there was an argument to be made that, of course going through the process, it's not going to equip you exactly for the working world if I can use that expression, but it should be a bit closer to what it often is and everything that you're saying.
[00:10:34]It sounds fantastic. I want to take the course now, but it, it sounds like the students get a lot better idea of this is what practice really looks like. This is an important part. It's not just focusing on the law. That's important of course, but it's also the business side of the law firm I at least see a lot more discussion around that because it's been a secondhand thought. And as firms become more business oriented in how they're run with adding roles like a COO and so on those skills become even more important.
[00:11:09] Rasmeet Charya: [00:11:09] Absolutely. And I also think courses like this also, actually promote the thought process around it.
[00:11:18] It's very important for people to think about it because if you're not even thinking about it and you are always going ahead with the same mindset that, okay. The substantive knowledge is the only thing that you require. Definitely. You require that, but you also need to think differently to be able to do your practice in a very different manner, which. Is something which the clients expect out of you, which is something that your organization, that you're working for expects from you.
[00:11:47] And also it's very important how you are able to make your life better by employing various tools and technologies or various techniques, which are very well available. But the thing is you have to start thinking about, and that's what we tried to do with the law schools.
[00:12:04] Ab: [00:12:04] Yeah. And I think too frequently, technology is often just seen as this efficiency driver researching Algo and researching some of the previous conversations you've had, one of the, one of the items I read and I'm paraphrasing here said at the, from technology.
[00:12:24] It's seen to be a part of the firm's daily operation, rather than just a single use or an occasional option for lawyers. I think this comes from the Indian legal technology article that looked at the story of Algo legal as the source. And that's refreshing to see, how do you think about that in practice?
[00:12:43] And one of the things I talk about quite a lot is. When you're evaluating technology, it should actually be process first so understand the process behind the work. And then think about the technology that fits what you're looking to solve rather than find a tech and say what can we do with this today?
[00:13:01] Is that how you're thinking about it? How do you approach that with the firm internally?
[00:13:06] Rasmeet Charya: [00:13:06] Yes, absolutely. I think we definitely believe that process is very important. And that's where you are actually defining your practice. If you're able to define your practice, you're able to define every single step, how you are going to, deliver a particular project.
[00:13:25] When we start with every project we actually start looking at the entire end to end process for that project? Whether it is in terms of what are going to be every single step, which is involved, starting from your kickoff call to your drafting of any documents, what tools you're going to use in between what templates you are going to use in between.
[00:13:46] Who's doing what in the system, what are going to be the timelines and what are going to be the final deliverables. So if we are able to identify this entire end to end process it helps everyone to be on the same page. It takes you from the stage of defining refining and then to an autopilot, and once you're able to put it to an autopilot stage, the technology can take over. Then you really don't need human intervention because you have done that process, in such a seamless manner, you have defined it. And then over a period of time, even technology can do that part for you.
[00:14:22] So that is how we feel. Process is very important, and that is how we do when we are working on different projects. So typically most of our projects, I would say we have defined the processes for them and specifically those areas where we can see a lot of standardization opportunities. We definitely standardize most of the documentation.
[00:14:42] We create playbooks. We create a lot of, process. We typically even have the process flow charts like written. We actually define every single thing because. Visualization definitely helps people understand much better than, actually if you give them an Excel sheet of a process, they won't be really looking forward to that.
[00:15:02] But if you visualize it for them, it is very easy. And they know at that at what step, what is it that has to be done? And yes. Then we integrate the process with technology and we also know that technology is not today available for every single step. So therefore we I would say amalgamated with people, process and technology.
[00:15:25] So we bring all of that together so that, we have a streamline processes.
[00:15:30]Ab: [00:15:30] . I love the idea of flow charts and actually being able to scope out, look what areas is there some technology that we can utilize?
[00:15:37]So at least you can prioritize while this is where something is available today, and this is where something else might be. What did those conversations look like? Especially for the processes you have put into autopilot, as you say, when you talk to clients how do clients respond to that?
[00:15:53] And I ask this because I know often, not always often that's if fear in some of the practitioners and well. If we become Uber efficient how did we have that conversation with a client? Because clients also need to be brought along to this transformation journey where maybe they are used to the partner or the associate going away and spending two, three days and tending the work route.
[00:16:17] And if it tends to run immediately or much faster, You need to manage that change and give them the confidence that actually we've refined things so much that not only can we turn it around faster, but the standard of care is even higher now. How do you actually have those conversations with clients in the first place?
[00:16:36] Rasmeet Charya: [00:16:36] So I would say. It actually started for us. Let's slightly differently because we weren't in a situation where the client actually came to us and asked us that. Okay, I want to, I know that you are doing this deal in say two months time and but I want it to be completed in five. Okay, great. So we had that challenge to actually meet wherein we had to define the entire process for the client.
[00:17:05]We had to actually tell them that, okay, this is what is the technology pieces we'll bring in here. We have templatized every single contract that we are going to use in this deal. We have even created drafts of your emails that we will be sending so that there's not much time which is wasted on, redrafting things and reviewing things again.
[00:17:26] And again. In fact, when we actually went to the client with this entire process they were very happy with it. The reason is because they could see that the team has put effort in defining the entire process. They knew what they can expect from us at what point of time, because we were defining the timelines that, okay.
[00:17:48] Say in T plus one days we'll give you this document. In D plus three days, you can expect this from us. Since everything was pretty defined. The client also actually came back to us with their suggestions on it, and that way it not only streamline our process with the client, it helped them streamline their processes as well.
[00:18:10] And we were one of the law firms working with that VC. Oh, there were several other law firms working with that VC. So what it helped them was they could streamline their processes in their legal department. And similarly, they started expecting from other law firms. So while I'm saying this is actually a good thing because it helps both, it brings a lot of visibility, transparency into the entire interaction you're having with the client.
[00:18:37] And at the same time, they can see the effort being put into it. This by no means that we are, the quality is going to be impacted. So there's nothing like this because since you are discussing and you're being transparent to the client, that, okay, this is what we are going to follow. And again, even when we are drafting the documents, we are sharing with them, getting their inputs and forming it, saying that, okay, now this is your template.
[00:19:05] And now putting it, configuring it on our system. So what it helps is it not only our lawyers, can you use it? Their internal in-house team can also use those templates from there. So therefore I think it's it's it's good for both the parties to be able to work like this. I would say when we are having a first interaction with the client.
[00:19:25] We always give them a presentation wherein we do talk about this. We show them, okay, this is what you're expecting, right? This is going to be process. This is how we are going to convey the things to you. This is going to be the reporting format. So that really helps him.
[00:19:42] Ab: [00:19:42] Yeah. And I love that you're setting the expectations right from the outset.
[00:19:47]Of course, the example that you gave, it's an ideal situation where you have to be reactive to the problem you have to solve. So that's the cadence for the rest of it. And the, one of the key things you said there are. It sounds like it was accidental in this case, but it's good that the second and the third order benefits, because those are the things that really cement, how the clients may want to do this again in the same way, even when they don't have the time pressure of, Hey, look, the process normally is two months, but we have to turn around in five weeks because they can see.
[00:20:19] How they can then take the templates away and use them internally. They can see the benefits of doing it this way and they'll want to do that. And they'll enforce it with other clients and other firms as well. So that's amazing.
[00:20:32] Rasmeet Charya: [00:20:32] And I think we have to be mindful of one thing that when we are shortening the life cycle of a project, by putting in these tools and technologies, it, nowhere means that our effort is lessened.
[00:20:46]The items even, yes. Usually there's more because from the beginning of a project, you are actually scoping the project in a manner. You are actually planning every single aspect of it. You're spending time and standardizing documents. So definitely I would say if we are working with one fund and we are doing this exercise for them yes.
[00:21:08] Over a period of time or there other deals, it definitely benefited. But initially we do have to put in a lot of effort, but then it benefits everything.
[00:21:17]Ab: [00:21:17] Yeah. It definitely front loading the work. And that's a common misconception that people feel that it's going to be simpler over a long period of time for sure.
[00:21:26] But that, that's, and that's important from a internal resource management point of view as well, because you have to think about that. You have to take that into consideration and at least I've heard. It being used as an excuse, although it's not really an excuse, you can't put it off just because it's going to take long because the longer you put it off, the worse, the impact becomes.
[00:21:48] So there's no perfect time, but you do have to think about, look, if we do this today, yes, it's going to be hard for a month, two months, three months, but for the rest of the year, and then for all of our clients, it's a much better process. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm conscious of time at is two, two more things I wanted to chat through.
[00:22:10] So one of them is, and we touched on a bit of the community work that the firm has done with with being involved in education. I know the other thing that the firm was involved in was. Setting up a incubator I think it was during , 20, 20, I believe. And that was on a pro bono basis. And I know you had two successful, very successful launches.
[00:22:31] One was TRUST and the other one was CORD. Talk to me a little bit why you did that? The press I read around that from the incubatees that you had, they were very happy. What was, yeah. What was the impact and impetus for you guys in doing that in the first place?
[00:22:44] Rasmeet Charya: [00:22:44] Yeah I think again with Sandeep's previous experience of working with Sequoia and across a lot of I would say the founders, the entire ecosystem. Altogether, I think Sandeep had a good insight into both sides of the transactions, right? So therefore he always felt that we should be actually collaborating and contributing to the entire Legal ecosystem and he wanted to share his knowledge, and with a lot of practice area experts available within the organization, we thought it would be a good exercise wherein we can actually, promote, come up with an incubation program, wherein we can help these startups, with whether it is a business knowledge, whether it is a legal tech or innovation knowledge, whether it is those substantive legal practice area knowledge.
[00:23:42] So we try to help them and, their project or the product requirements. And that's all we taught us contributing to the ecosystem. And I suppose it was a very good experience for us as well as for the incubators. And we are very happy that they're very successful
[00:24:02]Ab: [00:24:02] So I guess in wrapping up. W what's next for algo? You've grown in the last year and a half quite, quite a lot.
[00:24:09] All right. All right. And you're up to about 50 lawyers please? Correct me. Something around that?
[00:24:14]Rasmeet Charya: [00:24:14] No. Today I think we are 70 plus already.
[00:24:18] Ab: [00:24:18] Fantastic. So yeah. Is the aim to continue growing is the aim to expand to other markets? What can we expect to see in the next year to two years ?
[00:24:26]Rasmeet Charya: [00:24:26] Yes. I think we are definitely on our vision and mission of leveraging technology and innovating, but every we do think of doing something differently. And so like last year we did the locals, but this year we do plan to take up some new initiatives, whether it is becoming part of a bigger Legal tech ecosystem going global OD collaborating with global communities.
[00:24:53]There's a lot that we are planning to do. And of course I have one thing which we came across a lot and I think I've seen across the globe is the transformation piece related to change management. And that's a challenge we see across the industry. So definitely want to look at it differently and see what we can do in that area.
[00:25:15]And yes, we are happy to collaborate with any of the Legal the communities across the globe. Wherever we can contribute wherever we can share our knowledge, we are very happy.
[00:25:26] Ab: [00:25:26] Wonderful. Thank you so much Rasmeet I appreciate you coming on. And if people want to find out a bit more about alkyl Legal is algo Legal Diane, is that the right website?
[00:25:34] Yes. Perfect. And I'll link your LinkedIn profile. If people want to get in touch, I that's the best place I believe. Thank you again. I really appreciate it. Wonderful conversation and yeah, I'll send you be keeping a close eye and seeing what your journey looks like over the next few years,
[00:25:50] Rasmeet Charya: [00:25:50] Sean.
[00:25:51] Thank you so much.
Giles Thompson is the Head of Growth @ Avvoka 📈, former lawyer at Kirkland & Ellis and Herbert Smith Freehills ⚖️, Agriculturalist & Foodie 🚜, and tech investor & entrepreneur 🚀
Giles left practice a year ago to join the world of legal technology, and during this conversation we discuss:
- How the culture has shifted from his days in practice vs what he hears today
- The challenge of collaboration and different approaches firms are taking
- Pertinent skills/thoughts for future and newly qualified lawyers, and when to challenge the status quo
We covered a number of other topics as well such as the importance of mentors, the increasing levels of interest in innovation-type functions, and more.
You can connect with Giles LinkedIn, and find out more about the Avvoka Academy here.
The full transcript is included below. If it’s truncated by your podcast player, you can find it in full at www.fringelegal.com
Transcript
Ab: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome again to Fringe Legal. Today I'm excited to have Giles Thompson on the show. Before we dive in, I thought I would do something slightly different and give his life narrative in a chronological order. Giles is the son of a farmer, which naturally turned into him becoming a foodie, he went and did political science , which led to going into law school and actually practicing as a lawyer. He was formerly at Kirkland and Ellis, and then at HSF Herbert Smith Freehills.
[00:01:29] And now he is a tech investor and an entrepreneur. And the head of growth at Avvoka based in the UK. Charles, thanks for joining me. Welcome.
[00:01:39]Giles Thompson: [00:01:39] Thank you. The pleasure is mine. I thank you very much for having me.
[00:01:42]Ab: [00:01:42] I guess a good place to start would be you practice as a lawyer and now your work for a legal tech company.
[00:01:49] As you speak to law firms that you speak to it in house councils and corporate, what are you seeing from a culture point of view from your days in practice to now? Are the other trainees associates, partners, leaders, are they asking for different types of things to when you were in practice or is the conversations still the same?
[00:02:11]Of course there's no one size fit all, but what's that spectrum look like from your conversations?
[00:02:15]Giles Thompson: [00:02:15] I'd always say be interested in your perspective in a moment as well as to what's changed and actually whether you disagree or agree with me, but Yeah, certainly I do see some differences.
[00:02:25]I've not been long out of law. So even in the kind of that short intervening period, actually a lot has that has changed as a result of the pandemic. The main thing I've really seen in actually and this quite a granular answer, but is an increasing desire for collaborative tools.
[00:02:43] That is a result of the sort of physical collaboration and interface between lawyers being pulled away actually. So the, I certainly remember when I was particularly when I was a trainee, because I was the one carrying the physical bit of paper, but actually the process of, having a physically printed out document and then marking that up and maybe three or four people at layering on their amendments on, onto a markup.
[00:03:04] And actually, the biggest trend that I've seen since I've left is people wanting to use tools that are akin to something like a Google docs and everybody being able to chip in on a document and work on it together rather than working on divergent drafts. And I do genuinely think that a good degree of that is because of that physical process being pulled away.
[00:03:23] I think the other thing, and maybe it hasn't really changed since I left, but maybe I just didn't realize quite the extent of the interests that lawyers and probably lawyers who are more senior than me when I was in practice who wants to have one foot in that camp of innovation.
[00:03:42] And so I think that there's definitely even in the last sort of 18 months, there's been a huge proliferation of innovations secondments within law firms. So senior lawyers seeing it as a potentially, even as a stepping stone towards partnership, actually spending some time in that innovation part of the business.
[00:03:57] And then maybe specializing in that area full-time or taking their skills back and actually then improving the revenue of wherever they came from initially. So I'm meeting a lot of those people and really enjoy meeting those people. But I think that they seem to be proliferating and I constantly see job ads for peoples in those kinds of divisions. But they're not asking for technologists all the time. Now that they're specifically asking for the lawyers of all the time.
[00:04:20]Yeah. What's your experience.
[00:04:21] Ab: [00:04:21] Yeah. I think I'd agree with most of that. Probably the distinction I would make is absolutely the collaboration point of view is true.
[00:04:30] The meaning of the word seems to differ greatly, right? From firm to firm or individual to individual. I'm not sure if the vast majority of, and I'll speak from the law firm perspective, that's the conversations I have the most think of it as working together with their clients. I think what I hear a lot now, and especially since COVID 19 last year, how can we replicate the environment where we could all sit in a room and work on a draft together to doing so digitally.
[00:05:02] And there's nothing wrong with that. And it's the, the approach of taking a offline practice online. That's one angle to that. The other side is. How do I collaborate better with clients? How do I give them more transparency and actually for what its worth, it's the clients are asking more for that, right?
[00:05:19] They don't want to keep emailing or calling just to get an understanding of, Hey, where's my matter at? Who owns what, are we on target and other things. So those are probably the two things.
[00:05:31] The innovation point is. Yeah, absolutely. There's a huge proliferation of that. I do catch myself sometimes because the view from inside the bubble, and I think both of us certainly are inside the bubble is very different because when you go and speak to probably 90% of the firms they're not thinking in that way. And you talked about innovations to continents, and I know some of your previous firms do absolutely do that.
[00:05:54]In my view, and I'm happy to be wrong, I don't think that's the norm. I don't think most firms have innovation secondaments. Very few do. I do think that there is a higher level of desire to go into innovation or something else, that's not just practice. And that as a pathway to both partnership, and also as a lot of the practitioners think about want to stay in Legal, but maybe I don't want to practice, all the time.
[00:06:20]And in the past one common route was maybe I'll become a PSL and that's not the only route, of course. But now it's, while I could be a technologist, I could be a innovation manager.
[00:06:30] I could be X. I could go in-house and work for a legal tech company as the case with both of us. So there's a whole bunch of routes now that weren't available before. So those would be some of the things I'm seeing.
[00:06:41] Giles Thompson: [00:06:41] Yeah. And I'll pick up on the point around collaborations because I think you're completely right.
[00:06:46] But just before that, I think the other thing as well is I certainly received a lot of phone calls, a lot of messages from people having made that, the venture that in certain legal tech that I have made. And I think there's a lot of people that are thinking very openly at the moment about what type of role might be suitable for them.
[00:07:03] And, the main fear that I hear from people when I'm speaking to them is. Can I ever go back? And I think that's one of the beauties of these kinds of comments. And I think you're absolutely right to call me out there and say that is the likes of the Herbert Smith Freehills offering that kind of thing, and I think, that those people that I speak to are perhaps smaller firms they don't have that kind of halfway house option.
[00:07:23] And actually one of them really inspiring things as people who create those kinds of positions and themselves, and, I find myself trying to recommend people to do that, knowing full well, all of the difficulties of doing that.
[00:07:34] And actually on that sort of collaboration point that you mentioned, you're totally right.
[00:07:38] And that there's very good reasons why. Actually it's easier to replicate that into lawyer collaboration versus client lawyer collaboration. And I don't think it's easier tools to replicate either really. But the client point is harder because there is a very good reason for it.
[00:07:54] But lawyers have a tendency towards perfection and, anything that you type in a shared document with a client, That's it's possibly legal advice. And so you end up in a bit of a sticky situation where maybe you have to put a new engagement letter that, if we're using so-and-so application until X stage has been reached, you can't deem what we're putting in there is legal advice because everything needs to be signed off.
[00:08:18] So if you have a, and I know this is going out around the world, but in the UK context, if you have a trainee lawyer typing in a document and a client seeing that they certainly shouldn't be relying on that, but how do you. Yeah. How do you rationalize that process? Yeah and replicate that situation where a trusted advisor is sitting in a meeting room with a client and actually going through something line by line.
[00:08:38]Ab: [00:08:38] I had this conversation recently with probably about eight to nine different KM leaders. And that was the number one take for them. I think people are generally open to the idea, but there's that management of risk compliance, data, integrity, all of those things that come into play.
[00:08:54]Which I mean, it is not an easy problem to solve and I don't think anyone has it figured out yet, but I think those discussions are now happening more and more. The other part, and this probably goes into the second topic I wanted to chat about is I think there is a link to transparency as, because at the moment, A lot of the work that's being done by law firms.
[00:09:15] A lot of it not all is done behind closed doors, right? You go in with your problem or you're seeking advice and eventually out comes a response in the form of a draft or opinion or whatever it might be. As you start working in a more multiplayer environment where people can see what you're doing, then you have to, get your clients comfortable and get yourself as the lawyer comfortable with people. Seeing the initial subpar work that you may be doing right? The end. It's not that it's bad. It's just, there's a degree of changes that will happen as the draft goes from, the first draft all the way through to the eventual final delivery.
[00:09:56] And do you really want to really let your clients see how the sausage is made? Not just from, Hey, maybe I will need to rewrite this 20 times or maybe there is a trainee working on it and an associate and a senior associate, not just the partner. So all of those things come into play and I don't think we have that figured out and how that works while yet.
[00:10:17] Giles Thompson: [00:10:17] No, and actually it's quite funny. I look by the way, I love the phrase with when we were playing multiplayer. I think that's an amazing phrase - love it. But I think the other thing is, you can't win as a law firm from in a sense, because if if you're using document automation software or something, and you're creating a draft in seconds and you're charging a good amount of money to do that clearly there's a lot of IP that has gone into you getting to that point.
[00:10:40] So query whether time is the relevant thing anyway, in terms of the value, but actually, the inverse, you're also not winning because if there's tons of work going in and you're trying to make it look like every single stage was easy. And not iterative and everybody working all hours on a document and yeah, I guess it's a little more comfortable and a lot safer.
[00:11:02]Having this sort of wall in between you and where you can wrap up the package and then deliver it in a particular context. I think one thing that's quite interesting Ab is I've seen in a slightly different take on this really take off.
[00:11:15] And it's something that's connected with, the sort of more commoditized, outsourced Legal advice, offerings that a lot of these big firms are doing. And actually the it's funny because in a different context, the client and lawyer collaboration can work really well. So I, and I'll expand on that. So I've seen where corporates are doing routine contracting works.
[00:11:36] If something like a know procurement function. And I've seen where certain risks franchise and that kind of thing are exceeded at that point, then lawyers get added to documents or get added to a document repository and then asked to advise on particular documents if they have certain property.
[00:11:52] So that's kind of collaboration. It's actually been around for a fairly good while. It's funny to see how, where it's quite clear, who's got responsibility for blocks and where advice has actually been deemed delivered. You can get around those things and actually people can work in pretty good harmony in that sense.
[00:12:09] Ab: [00:12:09] Yeah. And I think that's right. A lot of these things are big changes for those that have been around and have been doing this work for any amount of time. So it's just making people feel comfortable by having some incremental things. So they're used to the process, right?
[00:12:24] If you are warming them up by, as you said, if you're using something like doc auto and, you're able to turn things around quickly, but helping them in a way, Hey, you need to give this to your client or your in-house teams need this great, how we created and delivered this very quickly. Next time, when you do that, they become a bit more accustomed to paying for efficiency rather than inefficiency, which has been the case in the past, because efficiency doesn't have to mean that you're cutting corners or the level of thought hasn't gone into it.
[00:12:56]It is in fact the opposite where you spent probably a lot more work upfront to make sure you're thinking through a lot of that. And, you are spending more time problem solving than you are producing things.
[00:13:10] Giles Thompson: [00:13:10] Yeah, no I completely agree. And it's definitely a mindset shift needed.
[00:13:14] And I suppose, actually in a scenario where you've got a first draft, that's completely spat out and thinking is, has happened in the background so that it's literally a hundred percent automated when it gets to that point, you actually get around a lot of these issues. Almost entirely because you've got that first draft.
[00:13:32] And then at that point it does become a sort of true collaboration. But I, and I especially always probably run into species again when you go in and tear up that initial first draft.
[00:13:40] Ab: [00:13:40] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't think the initial first draft offer often looks exactly the same by the time it has signatures on it.
[00:13:47]One of the things that I thought that certainly you'd be good to take it your view on that: as a lawyer, that's just joining the workforce today in house or in private practice, so let's say you're either a trainee or two, three, four years PQE, what do you think are the skills that they should be focusing on? And part of that is I know part of your interest came from your work with IP lawyers. And not saying everyone has to go out there and learn to certainly code or even be an expert in using tech. But what do you think are some of the things they should at least be keeping an ear to the ground about?
[00:14:19]Giles Thompson: [00:14:19] This is a huge can of worms and I'm really glad that you've asked me about it. Because it's something I'm fairly passionate about. This is perhaps a bit of a controversial thing to say, but I think that the skills that often junior lawyers at this point in time get rewarded for, and indeed they can absolutely set out and move up and doing are not necessarily the skills that, junior lawyer are gonna need to have in 10 years, or indeed those junior lawyers who are starting or working now are going to need by the time that they're looking at partnership . And actually one of the reasons I left practice myself was because I was doing IP litigation and thoroughly enjoying it.
[00:14:56] But a large part, of course I did was taking precedent information and then reshaping and, sometimes that was deleting and filling out square brackets. Sometimes it was a fair bit more complicated. And I wouldn't want to undersell how hard some of that can be, but ultimately I was the most junior person on the team.
[00:15:14]So I was doing a lot of the more monotonous and square bracket literally filling out or deleting. And I, and actually I got pretty good at it. And I'm dyslexic. To avoid those comments about sort of attention to detail. I actually got quite good at creating almost algorithms in my brain around how to use, find and replace how to perform checks and all this kind of thing.
[00:15:34] And I thought, hang on, I'm getting good at this. And people are clapping and applauding me for getting better at this stuff, but actually. This, isn't why I got into the law. But also this is stuff which is probably not going to serve me that well in the future. And this is not stuff.
[00:15:47] When I look at the people who are more senior than me, that really impresses me about them. Obviously when I was a trainee, I was really impressed by people who knew every Word function, but that's slowly changed. To that end, what skills would I say to build and I, again, a bit controversial, but this negative feedback I often got in practice was.
[00:16:05] Why do you always try and find a different way of doing things or why, why do you always over complicate things, Giles? And so I would actually say that people don't lose that. I think that's ultimately a, I had it to a, such a degree that I thought I, she wants to change the way that certain things are done for the better, so I've moved, but I think there's always a healthy element of that mindset, I think is really important to preserve.
[00:16:27] And I think it's important to remember, especially when you're on the junior end people who are more senior don't necessarily have an incentive for you to keep asking those questions. And you might set yourself apart as someone who is able to innovate and challenge the status quo and actually maybe even generate new forms of revenue for the business, but will say for yourself and you'll face in the partnership.
[00:16:47] So I'd say, hold on to that kind of. Challenge things mentality. Obviously there's a time and a place probably like 3:00 AM when you're trying to put the transaction. It's not the time. But yeah, I think T take advantage of the opportunities that are available to exercise that particular muscle.
[00:17:00]And definitely. Network with tech, the technologists in your firm and network with people like ourselves out, because, frankly, we're grateful from the attention from private practitioners or in-house lawyers. But actually, because we might be able to teach something and give them a tool that will also help them stand out.
[00:17:19] Ab: [00:17:19] Yeah. And I love so much of what you were saying, because I think there is an element at different stages of your career, regardless of what you're doing. And certainly a technical career like legal practice, you will need to have different skills, right? What you need to be good at when you're a trainee in your first month is probably going to be very different to when you're a partner and you need to be able to learn a lot of those things along the way.
[00:17:42]The frustrating things, from everyone's perspective, there isn't a rule book for a, Hey at three months, learn about these things. So you can be ready in another three months time. So you do have to do a lot of work because it will change and it will differ both based on the firm or the company you're aware as well as your practice and what you may want to do in the future.
[00:18:01] For sure. You should be able to question and challenge things. And sometimes if only to understand why something is being done in a certain way, and it doesn't mean that it's right and it shouldn't change, but at least it'll give you the context and the background, because some things, which frankly seems quite absurd because it doesn't.
[00:18:20] In a particular way, maybe because it makes sense from the client's perspective based on what they may need to do with a document or information. And if you don't have that context as someone who's sitting there at 3:00 AM , doing control F searches for square brackets, you would think this is definitely not a good use of my time.
[00:18:37]But there may be a reason for that. Doesn't make it okay. But there may be at least a reason that'll give you some solace. And the last point I'll say is. The incentive piece that you talked about right there, often isn't an incentive for a partner let's say, or someone at a high level in the firm.
[00:18:54] To get you to sit there and improve how you're getting the work done. I think that's true. For what its worth I do think is starting to change very slowly, but it's starting to change. And one of the conversations I'm having in a few weeks is around how a lot of the partners and senior associates, they're ultimately managers, but they don't see themselves as that.
[00:19:12] And often they're not even trained to that. So that does create a gap in, personal development and team development and people development that you might expect. And I think this is where in-house teams. So generally a lot better because at least they have for better or for worse, a corporate structure who is aware of that.
[00:19:27] And there is some programming there. And the very last point I'll make, I realize I've been talking for awhile. There's a big difference in someone who practiced as a trainee 10, 15 years ago, really getting a full understanding of what it's like for you today. And I mentioned that because it's actually important and helpful for your partners or your supervisor to understand some of the ways in which you're doing things, because they may not know that anymore.
[00:19:55] Because if the last time you did that kind of work was 12 years ago, you would hope some things have changed and that's not on your radar. So actually you may, again, time and place important but you may actually be helping the whole process, but just being a little bit more vocal around that.
[00:20:10] Giles Thompson: [00:20:10] Yeah, and I think that's right. And one of the things that, I do a lot of and without direct it back and get is the sessions. But what we do is we educate people on what our tech does. And we actually do have a large focus on the student population as well and not trainees because.
[00:20:28] We went away that, it's not actually that much of a long play to those people that are basically deciding what technologies companies use. And, I certainly was in that, the pair of shoes, where I had to explain to a partner that You could use a PDF compiler as opposed to printing the document off, manually compiling it and then scan it, scanning it back in.
[00:20:50] And in fairness, I don't know how long Adobe has been able to do that in a way that most people know, but I don't know. Is it, has it been 15 years? Has it been as long as a lot of those partners have been at this time? Probably not.
[00:21:04] Ab: [00:21:04] Yeah, and that's right. And I'll give you guys a shameless plug.
[00:21:07]Yeah, I would, if you're a student, please do check out Avvoka Academy. And otherwise as well, I think it's a good resource to start learning some of these things. And if you're listening to this podcast, I already appreciate it because we do talk about these things quite a lot, too. Awesome.
[00:21:19] So I just had one more, one more thing to talk about and conscious of time as well. And it touches on the sort of trust element we talked around, having transparency with your clients.
[00:21:29] The partners or supervisors that you worked really well with, where you felt like you were being heard or are you were learning a lot what did they do well to to basically enable you to go out there and learn things and, take an interest in technology and all sorts of other things. I'm thinking of this as, how do you encourage someone who's in your team who you're working with?
[00:21:50] To come forward and say those things, because there is a trust deficit element where people feel afraid. It's look, if I go and tell them, I don't know, something, will this look back for me? I think that sent me prevalent in law firms and in my experience as well. And in my discussions, how do you overcome that?
[00:22:05] Giles Thompson: [00:22:05] There were definitely some fantastic mentors that I had. And I think the ones who were great were basically if I would do it was proposing to do something a slightly different way, they'd say, okay before you go and actually spend the energy doing that. Can you go away and explain to me, what's wrong with the current process and also what what the benefits of your process and how do we actually get there and then we'll make an assessment on that basis.
[00:22:29]And I think what that did is it forced me to have a degree of empathy with the way things currently were. And actually, even if they weren't ideal, there might be very good reasons, a little bit, slightly crazy ones. Why it was a certain way. And I'll just use that example. I remember that in a particular context, absolutely losing my mind because I was dealing with signature pages, which have been signed on pages, which have different document numbers.
[00:22:54] And until you realized that was when I was training, until you realize the risk associated with that for a large transaction, you don't really understand it, yeah. Just doing that loyalty thing of using your in term anxiety, that's been drilled into you to unturn overturn every rock and really look at the negatives of moving away from the standard.
[00:23:14] And then thinking about actually. To be honest, that doesn't really match up with the potential benefits of change. And I think actually those supervisors really helped me to, in my comment real. So having that level of empathy where people say to me, okay yeah, I'll have style. We need to make sure that had to matches up three millimeter away from the robot level or something.
[00:23:37] I get why that's super important because if you have two signature pages and one of them. It's three millimeter difference to the other. That's a big problem. So yeah, I think the recommendation would be. Actually sit down and make time to talk through proposals like this and take them seriously.
[00:23:53] But I think the beauty of that is it also forces the person instead of coming out with a proposal to think seriously about it as well, because it's all very, I think a lot of this stuff comes from a place of frustration or, frankly just being fed up and tired which is a situation I was in a lot as a private practitioner but actually putting together a concrete proposal, Yeah.
[00:24:10] That's about much more helpful rather than an emotional outburst. It's an emotional output.
[00:24:14]Ab: [00:24:14] That there's a great example of there's some of these things that happen in the moment. You're like, why does this even matter? Why are we, why are we making these sort of micro adjustments and moving things by millimeters?
[00:24:24] It matters to the clients and it matters overall to the practice sometimes. Yeah, it's important to take a breath every now and then, and just think about it. And actually when you do see the potential repercussions of that, it makes everything seem real. And it's okay, now I understand why that was the case. So awesome.
[00:24:39]
[00:24:39] Wonderful. Giles , thank you so much. When I publish this and with the show notes, you'll find link to Giles, his LinkedIn page. He's very he's very prolific on LinkedIn and Twitter.
[00:24:47] So I'll link that link out to that. Please do reach out to him. I'll also link to a Avvoka Academy. And if there's anything else that we can help with, please, don't be shy to reach out to either one of us. I know we are. Very happy to connect with both private practitioners and in-house folks because yeah, it's wonderful to learn.
[00:25:02] And actually, certainly if you disagree with anything, we said, it would be wonderful to hear your perspective too.
[00:25:09] Giles Thompson: [00:25:09] Yeah, Def definitely and Ab thank you so much for having me really appreciate it. And, I would say we'll invite you on to the podcast that we do at Avvoka as it, when that's released, but maybe it will be, maybe it'll be clubhouse now,
[00:25:20] Ab: [00:25:20] yeah, exactly. I need to get an iPhone for that though. Awesome. Thank you so much. It's wonderful having you on have a good day. Thank you everyone.
Jan Hards is the Director of Legal Innovation at Johnson Winter & Slattery. After years of practicing as a Corporate M&A Lawyer at Freshfields in the UK, and then later at Johnson Winter & Slattery, he made a deliberate move to become the firm’s Director of Legal Innovation.
We discuss how Jan worked through that decision, what were some assumptions that he made, and some of the challenges.
We also explore how Jan and the business look at the innovation function - through five objective criteria:
- Create efficiency at scale
- Flexible working
- Create value from information the firm holds
- Generate revenue
- Address risk
We also explore when and how Jan gets involved with client-facing projects (including pitches). Just a note, this episode originally aired as part of the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit in 2020, and much of what we discuss are still relevant today, but it’s important to have the time context.
You can connect with Jan Hard via the JWS website or on LinkedIn.
The full transcript is included below. If it's truncated by your podcast player, you can find it in full at www.fringelegal.com
Transcript
Ab: [00:00:00] I am delighted to be joined today by Jan Hards, who is the Director of Legal Innovation at Johnson, Winter and Slattery based out of Australia. Jan thank you for joining me today.
[00:01:15] Jan Hards: [00:01:15] No, it's a great pleasure. Thank you very much for inviting me.
[00:01:19]Ab: [00:01:19] This is going to be a great conversation. So today we're talking about your journey from being a lawyer to an innovator. And of course, both of these things can exist in parallel, but you took a very deliberate step from one to the other and, we'll hopefully cover quite a lot, but focus around what are some of the things that you learned, what some assumptions you had, which of those came true? Which of them maybe you had to challenge and what you learned from that.
[00:01:46] Before we dig into all of that, just to set the stage for our audience here, would you mind just describing what sort of started this journey for you? What did you do before you were the director of legal innovation?
[00:02:00] Jan Hards: [00:02:00] Sure. No, that's fine. So I'm originally a solicitor a Corporate M&A lawyer , and I started my career in the UK, although I'm originally from Zimbabwe in Southern Africa. So people wondering about the strange accent hopefully that will explain it.
[00:02:18]I became a solicitor in the UK worked for many years at Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer became a corporate M&A lawyer there working on transactions, moved to Australia about nine years ago now and joined Johnson, Winter and Slattery soon thereafter as a Corporate M&A lawyer . We're working in the Australian market and are based in Sydney. I've always been one of the lawyers in the firms that I've been in who's been interested in using or leveraging technology to assist me in my practice as a lawyer.
[00:02:50] So even back in my Freshfields days I was probably one of those lawyers who would be commonly contacting the IT team, suggesting new ways of doing things, new applications and, over the more recent years this has picked up a lot just simply as I've been seeing, witnessing the quite transformative changes in technology , particularly consumer technology to which we have access to.
[00:03:17] And I've really enjoyed thinking of ways that we could use this technology to better drive efficiency and quality of service as solicitors. Over many years, I've been bugging my IT and my management colleagues to make certain changes or suggesting certain applications or certain ways that we could change applications we currently use.
[00:03:39]About two years ago the management of JWS turned around and said why don't you help us in this area more broadly, not just in your corporate practice and appointed me director of legal innovation at JWS.
[00:03:53] Ab: [00:03:53] That's awesome. And now hopefully you have many other colleagues that come to you and bug you with ideas and projects and so on as well now. So you know what it feels like on the other side.
[00:04:04] Jan Hards: [00:04:04] I do, yes. It has been very interesting and I'm not only the transformation from being one of those people that was just constantly suggesting to being the person who is really responsible now for receiving those suggestions, and considering whether or not they should be implemented. That has been quite eyeopening for me.
[00:04:25] Yeah, it's been interesting to understand, particularly now you're in the hot seat, it's not quite so simple. Particularly if you're working in a law firm, we'll come to that in the moment, but it's not quite so simple to take a seemingly great idea and actually put it into practice - implement it in the firms. So yeah, it's been very interesting journey over the last two years.
[00:04:47] Ab: [00:04:47] We'll certainly dig into that. We were talking about how I've made certain assumptions about putting this summit together and things I thought were going to be simple just because you think they're going to be simple, that never ends up being the case.
[00:04:59]Before we do talk about some of the points around your journey and really dig deep into some of the nitty-gritty of things. What are some of the aims of the legal innovation function at the firm at JWS? So give us the sort of broad line picture of, what are some of the, maybe the boundaries or that the objectives they're assigned or you've assigned in working with the management team there on what you want to accomplish.
[00:05:23] Jan Hards: [00:05:23] Yeah. So we have a wide number of objectives but we really distill it down into five areas. That's trying to use innovation and technology as part of that, but not just technology, but use it to create efficiency at scale. It isn't just sufficient to introduce a new way of doing things atop a particular small practice area.
[00:05:43] Now, of course, we will do that If that's something that is compelling for that for that practice area. But what we really want to do in this first objective is to try and create efficiency at scale. So look at ways in which it can be applied across the firm and indeed to for our clients.
[00:06:00] Flexible working is a second objective, which is particularly pertinent in our current environment, but certainly something that we were thinking about very carefully long before COVID-19 was something that anyone knew anything about. It's increasingly important for many of my colleagues and their clients that my colleagues can work flexibly. That's not only just being able to travel and and still work efficiently, but also a work-life balance and be able to work efficiently from home.
[00:06:32]The next area was really one of the areas that's really interesting to me, is to create value from the information that we hold. Not only information we receive from our clients, but also information that we develop internally.
[00:06:47] So know-how, other forms of information. I guess that falls into three areas. Can we get better information from our from our financial information that we gather billing information and the likes so that we can price our matters more efficiently. Can we analyze information in relation to who we are in contact with, who we speaking to who our colleagues are speaking to, to perhaps be better at marketing. And then as I mentioned earlier Analyzing the vast amounts of information we have on the work we're providing to our clients.
[00:07:20] And and providing, we're trying to zero in on better know-how in relation to that. So that's really the third area.
[00:07:27]The fourth area. Just no surprise at all generate revenue. Probably don't need to say too much more about that. Increase the amount of revenue we generate.
[00:07:35]And lastly but certainly by no means least is to address risk. Can we better identify the risks that our clients are facing in their matters? Can we use new innovative ways of working or new technology to even better address the risk reduce it in that perhaps even minimize it. That's an important area . And I suppose I'd be remiss in saying that, we should also we should also attempt to address our own risk. As solicitors we do as lawyers we do consider that risk quite carefully as well.
[00:08:11] Those are the sort of the five areas I look at. Yeah. So whenever, for example, I assess a new way of working with new technology. I'm trying to apply those five criteria and two to that and see how we can and test it really to see if we should proceed in a particular way.
[00:08:29] Ab: [00:08:29] Yeah. And that's really interesting as I look through the list which I wrote down as you were speaking I guess the one that I'll highlight more because we probably won't talk about it too much is the generating revenue part. Yes, it goes without saying, but I think it is extremely important to underline because certainly I have in my conversations with individuals and businesses seen too frequently where they go down the innovation path, whatever that may mean as you rightly said with or without technology, because there's both parts and they just forget about the end result of this, right?
[00:09:05] What is the business benefit? So I think it's really important to see that as a point in the checklist that you have, because you need to ultimately be able to convince someone at some point about the business value of this. Otherwise it could be the best idea in the world, but unless you can create a tangible link, whether it's today or, if it's a mutual idea in the future then you know, often falls flat on its face .
[00:09:29] Jan Hards: [00:09:29] That's a very important point because yes, you're right we wouldn't want to do something unless it is going to have a positive impact on the revenue we generate. But even if we can, in theory posit that there will be a positive impact. We still have to practically at least if not demonstrate it, but at least we'll demonstrate that will be the effect because you and your take in many cases, you're taking this new way of working this technology side. To practitioners, lawyers who have you for the most part have very successful practices working the way they currently are working in ways that they would be working in for the most part for their entire career.
[00:10:14] And yeah. You're asking them to change the way, the way they work. And in some cases that can be uncomfortable. In some cases it will involve having conversations with their clients and, trying not only have to persuade them, but they have to persuade their clients. And yeah it's very important to be able to say If you do it this way there's a number of positive benefits. Many of which I went through, there's a revenue benefit. There is a revenue generation benefit as well. And yeah, that, that does catch attention, perhaps some of the other areas. But yeah. Yeah,
[00:10:47]Ab: [00:10:47] and I think it's very important if you lead the meeting with forget everything else if you don't pay attention to that, there is a very clear revenue generating objective to this or end result that we can postulate. People will generally pay attention to the rest. So we'll come back to this list of the other four in a second. Let's take you back in your mind to two years from now, right where you got this role.
[00:11:13] Did you have an idea? Or whatever it may have been about these five key areas. That this is what your role may essentially revolve around. And I guess what I want to dig into is, as you took on the mantle of this, director of innovation, did you have certain assumptions?
[00:11:33] I'm sure you were like, look, I'm going to change the world. I'm going to make this the best firm in the world. Everyone will know the name, JWS. What were some of the leading indicators that sort of led you down that path?
[00:11:47]Jan Hards: [00:11:47] I was extremely excited when I took the role. I had so many ideas.
[00:11:52] There was so many things I thought we could do, ways in which we could transform the way we practice law, the way we deliver services to our clients. And yeah, I'll have to admit there was a a learning process and, connection with reality in the way that we do practice law and the way that our industry, the services we provide are different to those more generally in society or in commerce and in commercial life. For example , in the years before I took the role on, I was always very keen and trying out consumer grade technologies to try and enhance the way I practice law and was extremely enthusiastic about a number of products and would constantly bug my colleagues in IT and management, Oh, we should be using this, we should be using that. I had so many ideas, so many things I love to do, but you do come up against the realities of being a practicing lawyer in a law firm. And and the duties that we own our clients and of course to the courts and there's a special situation that an law firm finds itself in compared to other businesses.
[00:13:05]Of the great ideas that I had, that the products I wanted us to use on, perhaps in the cold light of day as a practicing lawyer I'll probably not yet viable. Which in many ways is frustrating, but in many ways is still a very interesting and an exhilarating because the challenge of the job, the challenge of the role is to try and it's to try and find a way to, to where we currently are. I can see on outside there's all these possibilities with technology, but it's defined a path to get us to be in a position where we can use that. I've been very high-level in that, but Two main challenges, probably three main challenges we face on: first is cost.
[00:13:44] And I'll put that to one side. But many technologies are quite, do come with significant costs. But the other two issues are client confidentiality. And then information and then third information governance. And this would apply across jurisdictions is not unique to Australia.
[00:14:01]We have to be extremely careful with how we hold our client's information and ensure that it's held securely. And think very carefully about how we deal with that information. And in many respects that has meant that the types of technologies we use when you compare it to what's available commercially, so consumers or just business, generally, I'm seeing, feel like they're five to 10 years behind.
[00:14:29]So when you when you just start practicing lawyer and you see some of the consumer technology and you just bang on the door and say, we should just be using this, we should use this. But once, once you're in my position and you working alongside our management colleagues, my IT colleagues, you see it from the other side, securing client, confidential information, absolutely critical for a law firm.
[00:14:51]And That, that has to be completely from the mind. But also information governance ensuring, but information is not only secure, but that it, that, that is all held . In a place that it can be retrieved easily in the future. You can't just go off on a frolick and put some clients' information here, some information there, it needs to be in one place. That was that was a very big reality check. We're not when I took my role and I have to confess many of the ideas I had two years ago, starting off have proved not to be practical, given the constraints. We work in our solicitors as, lawyers, as attorneys.
[00:15:29]So it has been a learning process in that regard.
[00:15:32]Ab: [00:15:32] Yeah. And thank you for that. It's good to know the realities of it. I don't want to just focus on, the wonderful airy fairy view of the world where it's yep. I had big ideas. I did everything. I set out to do those to happen, but that's a rare story.
[00:15:48]I guess what captured my attention was around, this really fine line that you walk. Of cautious excitement, right? You see something and Oh, this would be perfect. And you just want to. Hold your certainly now, because I think I'm sure that, putting the individual solar lawyer hat, like this would be perfect.
[00:16:07] And then you have to always switch the other hat and look at it from a very more focused viewpoint or more detailed viewpoint to, to ensure that it fits into client confidentiality, then information governance, and security, all of those things. Guess as you as talking about that and one of the areas.
[00:16:23] No. The five areas that you mentioned was around achieving efficiency at scale. So talk to me a little bit about focus and I'm thinking from the perspective of, both, as you were saying, when you were a lawyer, you would bring, I'm going to say tens, if not hundreds of ideas but people with that, and I'm sure you're hearing that across the practice from others when they're bombarding you with ideas, I'm sure - all great. How do you focus in on those? And I'm sure some of the challenges that you've mentioned will certainly be a initial litmus test. Like it doesn't pass the ball for information governance. So we can't even look at this. How do you actually focus on that and how does that work with the at-scale bed?
[00:17:08] Because some of those things maybe perfect for a small practice, maybe a three people. What do you do with those instances?
[00:17:16] Jan Hards: [00:17:16] So that, that's a very important point. Efficiency at scale in itself is a no brainer because if you're able to, if you're able to provide a new way of working and And implement it in a way that a large part of the practice and many of your colleagues are using that, using it and benefiting from it, then you know that, that's a good thing.
[00:17:36] And so it makes sense in its own. But it is. I have to say that many of my colleagues are lawyers first and foremost. They practice law. They provide legal services to their clients. They have a certain set of tools by which they do this. And they've learned to use those tools over their years of practice.
[00:17:58]And. While they're not resistant to it. It is disruptive to them to to change the way that they work. And and so you'll have a minority of colleagues like me and my previous days who are always looking for new ways of doing things. And perhaps even having a disruptive effect in the sense that, we're constantly suggesting ways in which we can work more efficiently for our clients from a technological perspective on an negative perspective, but the majority of colleagues are rightly focused on providing legal services to our clients.
[00:18:36]Using the tools that we currently have and doing so in, in, in the best manner that they can. And for them, it can be a disruption. If you say you should change the way that you use this tool. You should use this completely new tool as well. And while the minority of colleagues might look at it and say yeah, great.
[00:18:55] Let's try that. The majority. Or best will in the world or reluctant to do that unless the benefits to them and to their clients are clearly demonstrated clearly laid out. It's all very well pushing through an innovation or encouraging an innovation where a small number of your colleagues decide to use it and benefit from it.
[00:19:15] But I think. To get the most benefit from innovation. It's better to try and bring many, if not, most of your colleagues along with you to get the true benefits, all of them it's obvious from it. There's a number of ways to do it. The first approach that are saying, having some colleagues use some use certain types of technology and benefit from it and demonstrate it and show that it can be done so that it brings benefits that's definitely a one approach and an approach that I like to take but you can't just then leave those particular colleagues.
[00:19:52]Just using it and successfully using it, you need to, as part of my role is is bring it out and show it to other colleagues and say, encourage them to consider using this because that is where the true benefits will lie. If we're able to gradually change the way we work using some of the amazing technologies that are available.
[00:20:13]But it's, yeah, it's a process. And. And, there's a lot of communication that has to occur internally to to bring this about. And it's a slow gradual process. I think. We may come onto it in a moment, but of course the COVID-19 situation we're currently still in the middle of has brought about some interesting changes in that regard.
[00:20:34] But before that, yes creating efficiency at scale a very important part of my role of the innovations that I'm bringing through because it's just not enough to encourage a few like-minded attorneys, lawyers like me to try new things. Yeah.
[00:20:49] We want to bring the whole firm along with it. And in many cases, that means that we're a lot slower a lot more cautious in the way we adopt new ways of doing things. But I think that's the better approach.
[00:21:00] Ab: [00:21:00] Yeah. And I really liked the, essentially the point that you made around, not all lawyers are.
[00:21:10] They're not resistant to change, but it is disruptive. So bringing them along onto this journey, you have to be able to show them some sort of a, a value or a benefit to either them or their clients. And I do want to dig into this because you've mentioned the fact that. All of this.
[00:21:27] And I'm glad to hear, you've mentioned many times all of this has to be around providing a better service to clients. So I do want to come on to that and the COVID-19 changes. But before that, how do you measure the success of these innovations, or actually put it more simply, and which means I will naturally be much harder question to answer. How do you measure the success of your role? How do you know if you've done a good job in a particular year or month or a week?
[00:21:56]Jan Hards: [00:21:56] Yeah, that's actually not an easy question to answer, and for someone who was a practicing attorney Yeah quite, quite a change.
[00:22:04]As a practicing attorney, number of hours billed, revenue brought in, the numbers just speak for themselves. In my role it's not so tangible in many cases. There are some tangible areas of things that I do assist with and some areas of our practice where let me just say my colleagues are more open or more willing to come to me for assistance and we can show some more tangible benefits.
[00:22:26] Just to briefly mention that's my dispute resolution or litigation colleagues and who, for the most part, generally, this is my observation, but many might share it in the use of technology are further ahead than many other colleagues on, particularly in relation to rev document, review and discovery on the they.
[00:22:45]We've created a real time tangible benefits in that area because because JWS as a smaller firm we don't have our own in-house e-discovery platform. We outsource it to external providers. There's certainly a number in Australia. And, before I came along, that whole process was a little bit ad hoc.
[00:23:03] And big part of my role as being to rationalize that Let's get the process running more smoothly work with particular providers that we rate who provide us with a particular types of technology, so that we're all using the same technology. It's not Relativity on this matter, Ringtail on another.
[00:23:22] So rationalizing that. And then also, ensuring that pricing for the provision of those services is more competitive and close and and the process of obtaining those services is more efficient. And then once you've got that basis, you're working with a few trusted providers.
[00:23:40]You can then start to then leverage the technology in a way that probably wasn't achievable when you were just using a large number of different service providers. And so that process is very much under way. And so that, that has been one area of my role that, that has provided tangible benefits, I believe.
[00:23:58]But there are you're right. There are other areas where it is more difficult, at least the stage two to point to there's a lot of. Trying to encourage colleagues and other practice areas to consider and use certain types of technology. And in my role, I'm approached by many I'm external vendors.
[00:24:17]Yeah. Trying to sell me technology. And it's a big part of my role. But I in turn have to be an internal sales person and say we have this technology, you should use it. So yeah in many ways I, I'm pretty similar to the current external vendors. I'm trying to sell this internally.
[00:24:35]And only a small at the, it's early days, not all of my colleagues are receptive to all the different types of technology innovative ways of working that I'm offering them. So yeah there's a lot of internal marketing and not all of it results and internal sales, if you like.
[00:24:51]And then, and this is a really. A really interesting part of my role it's looking at the back end and the way law firms operate and trying to bring innovation and technology to that. And this I'm referring to, and I mentioned it earlier when I was talking about creating value from data, this is this is looking at on the backend the data that is generated semi-structured data and trying to try and trying to create value from it from our billing information from marketing information From information not only about trying to, trying to Better market to new clients or to existing clients, but also to look at the referrals that that, that law firm has a very critical area of our law firm , but probably most of law firms no work is referred to us. or we're referring work to other law firms, but other organizations and trying to manage that more efficiently. So those are areas where it is. It is difficult to actually. at least in the early stages to identify a tangible benefit from what you are doing.
[00:26:01]But it's always something that I'm constantly thinking about, how do we, how do we demonstrate that we've actually have created value here? What metrics can we use? It's not enough to say, Oh this is just all intangible. And just have a bit of narrative about this.
[00:26:15] There's always ways, or in most cases, there's ways to measure things. And then, and then having a go at measuring it. And then you go down the rabbit hole of what tools to use to measure it. And you'd probably have to stop yourself before you go too deep down that rabbit hole because it can, it
[00:26:32] can turn.
[00:26:33] Yeah.
[00:26:33] Ab: [00:26:33] So a wise person once said something that, you know, and that's something that you don't measure, you can't improve or something along those lines. Anyway, as a, it becomes very important. And actually that point that you're talking about the backend information. It's. It's something that every business has not unique to law firms by any means.
[00:26:53] And in fact, most businesses spent considerable amount of resources time, money people resources and ensuring that they are measuring that. And especially if you look at, for example, the SAS business, it becomes so important to understand, okay, we are getting the two, we are getting referrals. What do we do from this?
[00:27:12] How, what is that conversion rate and same thing for a law firm? If we are referring work out to someone. What happens to that? If we are being referred work, what happens to that? Because, especially if you are being referred work, that's a revenue generating function potentially, and assuming, you convert on that.
[00:27:30] So what are the small tweaks that you can make? What leavers can you pull to ensure that maybe increase the amount of referrals or if you, when you do get a referral? The, the matter that you open is a sizable value or whatever, it might be. Those things are so critical, but often, they end up becoming the unsung heroes in a law firm function.
[00:27:51]Th they're the ones that actually over these, my hypothesis, they will become very important as law firms start changing how they get clients, it goes away from. I'm going to get them through my network. And in fact, that should also be a point of measurement. How are you getting your work?
[00:28:09] And if it is through a network, how do we enable our lawyers and anyone else who might be seeing to increase the network size? How do we take advantage of that?
[00:28:20] Jan Hards: [00:28:20] I know, and there's some, this, there's some great analytical tools. So since of course I worked very closely with so business with my business development colleagues or marketing colleagues in this area.
[00:28:31]And I have a lot of great data that can be analyzed, but yeah. There's also ways of just analyzing the communications in and out of the firm with other organizations. And there's this, there's some interesting third party products or services out there that can assist with that.
[00:28:47] And we're also looking at doing that more intelligently internally as well. Actually being able to put some metrics around relationships between. Individual colleagues and certain third parties and track that over time. And I think, in a service industry, I think it was probably not uncontroversial for me to say that.
[00:29:07]I think law firms are probably. Behind in the way that they do measure relationships compared to other sectors of the industries in the service area. And there's definitely a lot that we can do in that regard to better the business and improve the services we provide.
[00:29:25] Ab: [00:29:25] Yeah. And I think that's a good segue to, providing good service to your clients. I guess rather than just ask the really cliched question of how do you improve service delivery to your clients - from your perspective of wearing the innovation hat, are you pulled into conversations with clients essentially?
[00:29:44] Are you client facing? And if you are what are the conversations that you're having with other businesses or clients, at what point do you get bought in? What's your function in those conversations?
[00:29:55]Jan Hards: [00:29:55] That's a good question. Happy to answer it. I am in certain areas client facing. It's been a great interesting part of my role to be involved in certain marketing or pitch discussions. Certainly, getting a lot of colleagues calling me up in the last in year. At minimum, to develop a legal innovation section of a pitch document or a pitch presentation that they're giving, but increasingly also I'm feeding them, not only information for them to take to a pitch meeting, but also I'm accompanying them to such a meeting and then speaking directly to our clients or potential clients as to the ways that JWS working inevitably can benefit them and increase the efficiency and the quality of the services we're providing to them.
[00:30:41]So that's that, that's part of what I'm doing. The other thing I'm doing, which I find very interesting is trying to think about the ways that we can improve the product or the service we provide. So we work in a very competitive industry and, we have very able competitors who are providing excellent services.
[00:31:05] We see those competitors across the table from us acting for their clients or either doing a transaction with our client or in a dispute with our client.
[00:31:16] But it's trying to go beyond that and think more carefully about the way that we deliver services to our clients. What are they going to do with the product of our work? If it's transaction - it's typical for a law firm to provide transaction volume or in some jurisdictions called a Bible or transaction set.
[00:31:37]Can we do more than that? Can we provide the information in a way that the client can better use it internally. And of course that gives us opportunities as well to have further engagement with that client. Rather than just giving them the information in a way they then need to take it away and digest it, and dissector to reorganize it. Work more closely with clients to say what are you ultimately doing with this information? Who is it going in your organization ? It's probably going beyond the internal legal team to certain business teams in, in that client. And so providing information to them in a form that can just be pushed straight to the people who need it.
[00:32:18]So thinking a lot about that. But there, there are challenges in that approach as well because you want to give the client information in the format they can most effectively use. And then probably until recently, many law firms have thought about just creating portals for their clients, which the law firm posts all the pertinent information.
[00:32:36]Which is probably better than, just sending information to clients, attached to an email or a USB drive. But I've certainly spoken to clients where, they're working with a large number of law firms and each law firms got a different portal and it's, they can't remember the password for all the different portals.
[00:32:53] So I think we have to go beyond that. Engage with our clients systems and deliver the information, so it flows seamlessly into the system. And most ambitiously think about, with our client's systems that they should actually potentially use because I thought some of our clients are very sophisticated and indeed probably more sophisticated than we are from a technological perspective, but many are not.
[00:33:20]And there's ways in which to build a partnership with them to actually bring about change within their own organizations and the way they store and use information. And because we, as law firms are such we create a lot of information that flows into those systems. We need to think a lot more carefully about how we deliver that information in a structured a way as possible.
[00:33:44] So I think that's a real, the interesting area of my role. And it's blatantly a way to try and differentiate what we're doing from our competitors. But of course, there'll be thinking along the way as lines as well. So that'd be an interesting contest I can put it that way to see how we can provide our services more efficiently in a way that's more, more useful and valuable to our clients.
[00:34:07] Ab: [00:34:07] But I think that's a good. Roadmap on how to think about it. You start with the very basic off, like where can I add value today in 10 of the, and that's you basically providing input on the innovation? Section of whatever you might be off the pitch deck. Yeah. Because that's a little barrier to entry.
[00:34:26] You already know people, what you want to do and what you need to put forward. And the next step is, okay, let's think about, we are delivering a product or a service. What did they do with that? And I think it's such an important question to ask all the time, what are you doing with this information?
[00:34:41] Help us understand this so we can provide. Better format more information or additional something to benefit you. And then the third piece, and it is the ambitious piece and it's rightly and it's the challenging piece is almost predicting and thinking through. So you're providing now guidance on, Hey, this is also something else you should look at.
[00:35:03] Which sets the expectation that you understand your clients and their business so well that you can tell them how to improve their business more than they can. They might be able to help themselves. That's really important and certainly helps with engagement and stickiness. And that I would say even the next layer beyond that is can you add some sort of a predictive value?
[00:35:24] So your segment, Mr. Client or Mrs. Client is going through these changes. We think you should be aware of X, Y, and Z technologies, or, essentially you're doing horizon scanning for them. And as a, I think at a large area or large segment, you can do that, right? This is what's happening in oil and gas in five years time, but how do you do that?
[00:35:48] Flip their business, their niche. And I think that adds a extra layer of value. And yes, hopefully everyone is thinking about this. I genuinely sincerely hope so. But they will bring about different. I think this is where you can stand out because your perspective and those of your colleagues should be very different to those that I have or someone else, because you will have a different perspective into this client's world than I do, or somebody else will. So yeah, I think it's set in the assets, differentiating points. And then I'm wary of time. So I do want to talk about really you talked about engagement there. Certainly one of the things, as you talked about your five values was flexible working right with that. One of the challenges pre COVID 19 I'm sure existed was how do you engage both internal colleagues?
[00:36:37] And external clients. So expand a little bit, if you don't mind on that whole situation of flexible working and then we can pivot from there to how did the five pillars, so to speak, get affected by COVID-19 how has your world turned upside down a little bit? Sure.
[00:36:54]
[00:36:54] Jan Hards: [00:36:54] Yeah. Flexible working. It's been something that law firms generally are, I believe in the market have been have been focused on for many years now. Particularly given many practice areas. And as as a corporate lawyer, I know the swell with very tight deadlines and And large volumes of work.
[00:37:11]You find yourself working extremely long hours and try and trying to set up the technology stack in a way that allows you to work more effectively and hopefully reduce that somewhat and has been as been an important thing for law firms for well many years, I would say allowing you to work out of the office, if you're traveling allowing you to work from home or from from other places.
[00:37:34]But also increasingly I'm trying to provide you with technology so that you can. You can avoid having to work such long hours, or perhaps you can that you can juggle your work more effectively with with all the other personal commitments you have.
[00:37:50] So that's certainly been something that That has, for a long time, beep been a focus for us. And of course I think many other law firms. And I think because of that I can only speak for us, but from what I've observed.
[00:38:03] I think when we, the COVID-19 crisis came along many firms were in a good position to, to move quickly. It's to adjust to it. Of course goes outside. I'll say it, but we're a service industry and the way we work makes it a lot less challenging to continue to operate in this remote working environment.
[00:38:24] We certainly had that going for us, but because we most of our clients. All of our competitors already had in place systems, at least for attorneys, lawyers to work remotely, the transition has been relatively smooth. And. There have been challenges and issues on, particularly with some of our colleagues, members of staff support colleagues enabling them to work remotely.
[00:38:47]So there've been some challenges on that. for the front end of the business for practitioners fee earners there's there's been relatively smooth. On the transaction side of our business. And so now I'm moving to COVID to COVID-19 for the transaction side of our business which include, which includes our my my previous practice area, corporate M&A working remotely has proven to be not a significant challenge as as you might've expected.
[00:39:17]For the most part over the last decade. The majority of negotiation calls because of clients certainly, but also with the other side, negotiating documents has been the telephone meetings did occur, I should say. Particularly if there was a particularly tricky area but for the most part, for the most part it was done remotely.
[00:39:37]Yeah. Except the lawyers and their clients will sitting in their offices. And so they've moved now to sitting at home and doing this. Shouldn't be disappointed by this, but my colleagues on that area have not really needed. Too much more assistance from me in, in, in that whole air of communications.
[00:39:55] Yeah. And setting up calls and the, like that they're pretty comfortable with where they're sitting using the conference call the audio conference call on, however, on our dispute side, it has had, has been more challenging. And so for me a lot more interesting in that we've had to move to an environment where face-to-face well Mediation meetings here and there and court courtroom hearings have been significantly disrupted and so trying to think of ways in which we can nonetheless still attend those mediation meetings.
[00:40:27]Still attend those hearings, still attend those trials. And for, for certainly for the courts that, that is being led by the courts, they're saying, we should use this technology, that technology. And so we have to be a bit reactive to that. But also.
[00:40:43]Some courts have come to us and say, what are you guys just what are you, what do you use? I'm a mediations more so as well. And so trying to move from a situation where people would go and know, sit in a room to use technology in those forums it has been quite challenging and.
[00:41:00] And, you and I are doing this on zoom and some courts are using zoom. But it does have its limitations for those types of for those types of forums. And so it's been very interesting to, to look at ways in which we can use technology and take it to the next level.
[00:41:15]Court hearings can occur. And the judge or the presiding official can have some control over over proceedings. And that might be using external providers, you have a sort of a technical control of things, but it's also been really interesting to look at some of the new services and products that are being developed, which Which deal with this as well.
[00:41:35]So that's probably been aside from assisting my colleagues and working remotely, that, that area's been one of the, one of the more interesting areas over the last few weeks, trying to assist colleagues and adjusts in the dispute side to adjust to this new remote working environment.
[00:41:53] Ab: [00:41:53] Yeah. And
[00:41:53] I think it's really interesting seeing.
[00:41:56] I think individual businesses. Yes. As you've said a lot of law firms had thought about it. They, most businesses hadn't thought about it, obviously in this way rightly or wrongly. And certainly they hadn't thought about it at this scale in such a short span of time. So I started this with this has been a accelerant for many and certainly the whole profession and the world for the courts it's been.
[00:42:23] Just, quite a dramatic change. And of course, state by state, whether you're in new South Wales, Victoria, or at a jurisdiction level, Australia, UK, US, and so on. It is really interesting to see how the courts are dealing with this. Because again, some courts are more or less forward-thinking or adaptive to this stuff.
[00:42:45]But every single one of them have had to figure out what do we do with this? Using zoom may not be the right answer for everything. It has certainly its own challenges. And certainly doing things in person doesn't always work. And somethings still now require. A physical presence. So what do you do with that?
[00:43:05] I spoke a couple of weeks ago with someone talking about custody's and childcare matters, right? That whole world has turned upside down. What do you do with that? If someone has custody of a child, you can't leave your house to go give it to your spouse or your partner or someone else what happens.
[00:43:23]So there's all sorts of interesting with attitudes are going through. So it's really interesting to hear and I guess maybe. Not as surprising about the transactional side of things, I think the nature of work has to change. And I think as much as you guys I'm sure are providing your input to courts on how some, what, some of the ways that you can do this.
[00:43:45] It'll be the same with clients as well. Because you'll have a number of clients coming to you saying, look, we, this is how we're going to work for now. And like the, for the foreseeable future and others may be coming to you and asking how are you doing this with other clients? How can we make this a little bit easier?
[00:44:01] Jan Hards: [00:44:01] Yeah, indeed. And, I don't want to on the transactions, on the transaction side, we are talking about the S the meetings and the comms. There's nonetheless, still very interesting areas to innovate as and the transaction side with the flow of information, and then how you it's an area of very close to my heart as well since I know M&A lawyer and how we can better manage the flow of information.
[00:44:25]Yeah. Critically now that we're in in in, we're all working in a remote environment and managing, the finalization of documents and the exchange of documents, execution of documents still it has become even more an area of focus
[00:44:39] Ab: [00:44:39] for sure. Yeah.
[00:44:40]And then I guess just in wrapping up as we conclude this Thinking through others that may be on a similar journey, right? Whether they are doing both the lawyer and the innovator part together or separately. What's one bit of information that you can share and to give you I guess if we'll focus on this.
[00:44:59] What is something that was in hindsight, quite a blind spot for you as you navigate through this world what was something that you were like, wow, I thought that was going to be just so simple. And in hindsight, It's been, become a big part of your world. And for simplicity, let's take out the COVID-19 situation from this, because that would have its own far reaching implications as well.
[00:45:24] What's something that, you know, someone early in this journey or maybe they're so well along. What should they think about.
[00:45:31] Jan Hards: [00:45:31] This th there's a large number of things, but maybe I'll just alight on to the first is really coming from the tech enthusiast that I was, I still am when I came to this role.
[00:45:42]And that is, seeing all this great technology and software that, that might be leveraged. And then. Now coming up against the cold reality of maintaining client confidentiality over information. You use using certain SaaS platforms to to collaborate and manage the transaction, even if just internally at an law firm with your colleagues runs up very quickly up against client , confidentiality concerns or even suggesting a great little app on an iPhone to check the grammar of your email.
[00:46:16] again, what's it doing? It's taking the text of your email and putting it into a cloud and analyzing it. So it's all of these great tools, which at first glance seem, now they could add real value. Run into the reality, at least for law firms of all know, that's client confidential information, that's going into an environment which we we don't control.
[00:46:35]Now of course you can take steps to get comfortable with that. And. That's probably, we don't have time for a whole discussion about, law firms moving to putting information to the cloud. But that was one area where, you know enthusiasm hit reality. Pretty soon on when I took the role
[00:46:53] The other area is which is which is a real challenge.
[00:46:58] But and I've mentioned it before, but you mentioned the word engagement and that's getting engagement with colleagues. So as I said earlier COVID-19 may change this early days colleagues have work for the most part, very successful, have great practices, have great client relationships and, Not always receptive to changing the way they do things or they may be receptive in theory in, in, in principle and think that's a great way, but when it comes to the cold lighter let's try and do it differently on this matter as well.
[00:47:30] That that's a bit, that's a bit difficult or or, I see the value in that, but then have to explain it to the client and the client just wants the job done and we've got the jobs, so let's just do it. So I'm trying to try to deal with that and get and get engagement.
[00:47:47]It is, it's a huge challenge of the role or the role that I currently have really, it goes back to the salesmen point, really demonstrating internally to colleagues. Not only demonstrating and persuading them, but actually giving them the tools or the lines or the arguments to use to, to to share the, will demonstrate the benefits to their clients.
[00:48:08]That's a big part of my role and think, trying to think very carefully about that and get engagements and practice and hasn't always been easy and, they're great products or solutions, or even internal ways of changing things, but take up it hasn't always been as quick as I would have liked in some areas.
[00:48:25]So that, that's something that you do need to really think about carefully focus on and concentrate on in, in a role like mine.
[00:48:34] Ab: [00:48:34] Yeah. Nope. Perfect. And thank you again for joining me today and thank you for making the time. That's Jan Hards of Johnson, Winter, Slattery, and yeah. Have a wonderful day.
[00:48:44]Thank you very much Ab.
Innovation management helps to optimize the innovation process, identify bottlenecks and increase the productivity of innovation, investment, and resources.
Floor Blindenbach is the founder of Organizing4Innovation. Trigged by a recent whitepaper, I speak with Floor to discuss her views on innovation management for law firms. We spoke about:
- the importance of treating innovation as a process
- definition for innovation'
- the role of culture in driving innovative efforts
- Innovation as a way to develop talent
- the problem of tracking/measuring innovation efforts in law firms
- best practices for innovation teams
You can find the whitepaper here: https://www.organizing4innovation.com/managing-innovation-law-firms/
Transcript below (if cut off it can be found on FringeLegal.com)
About Floor
Driven to help innovators succeed, Floor Blindenbach-Driessen, founded Organizing4innovation. She developed the T4 online training for innovators that also serves as an innovation management platform, so organizations with limited innovation infrastructure can easily manage and oversee their innovation activities. She has a Ph.D. in management from the Erasmus University in the Netherlands and has 20+ years of research and practical experience with innovating in the professional services. She has written dozens of publications, assisted hundreds of innovators, with creating thousands of awesome solutions, leading to millions of dollars in new revenues.
You can find Floor on LinkedIn
Transcript
Ab: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to Fringe Legal. I'm so excited today to have Floor on the episode. Floor is driven to help innovators succeed, and because of this need, she founded Organization4Innovation. She developed the T4 online training for innovators that also serves as a innovation management platform, so organizations with limited innovation infrastructure can easily manage and oversee the innovation activities. She has a PhD in management from Erasmus university in the Netherlands and 20 plus years of research and practical experience with innovating in professional services. She has assisted hundreds of innovators with creating thousands of awesome solutions, leading to millions of dollars in new revenue, all fantastic achievements.
[00:01:51] And we will dig into the wealth of the knowledge that is in her brain today. So Floor, thank you so much for joining me.
[00:01:58] Floor Blindenbach: [00:01:58] Thank you for having
[00:01:59]Ab: [00:01:59] Yeah, I came across your work, as part of the a talk you did at the skills workshop, a presentation in January, 2021.
[00:02:08] And that was all around innovation management in law firms. As a setup to this conversation, because that's certainly tickled my interest. Would you mind just giving a synopsis around that work, that report, and I'll certainly link to that for everyone listening/watching this so they can read it in full because it is worth reading.
[00:02:29] Floor Blindenbach: [00:02:29] Absolutely. Let me start to say our focus is on firms that innovate and that, that aren't the Googles of this world that have billions to spend. So that's like a starting point and describes the type of teams that we work with.
[00:02:43] We have a platform for that, and we have earned a research grant to see if he could add predictive analytics to our online training platform. We started the research out to see if we could basically vet teams better if it's like a Fitbit for innovation teams. And if we know better about teams do, can we then also provide better support?
[00:03:06] And we were so ignorant to think that we could even vet teams for law firms. We practice what we preach, and went out to do customer discovery and ask so would that'd be of benefit? So it's predictive analytics. The resounding answer that we got was no, we know which teams we want to support. So okay we have a research grant and a problem that no one wants to us to solve. Well it was a little more nuanced, but in those conversations, we also learned some things that I could not write. On the one hand, there was this where if you ask people for success later, like they were all saying, Oh, we're super successful.
[00:03:46] And also during ILTAON, we did a little poll and law firms indicated they had success rates of 80% or higher. That's very uncommon. So that would mean that in the law profession, they knew something that no one else knew, but this is like a venture capitalist have like success rates of one to 10 and even like the Procter and Gamble and Unilevers of this world, they need eight ideas for one success. So that was one thing. At the same time. If you talk with senior leadership, they were complaining, they were very skeptic about all these new technologies, because they saw so many failures. So this was really like a little bit of an indication, like something is not aligned here and last but not least I was talking to many people and then I got like an email two months, three months later which said: "Oh, I'm so sorry. I left the firm or I quit". And so I saw a huge turnover in innovation manager. So it was like, something is not, does not ryhme here. And so we're like, okay, let's use then our customer discovery and stick, step back and look into how is innovation actually managed in law firms. So that's when we started the new and talked with about 35, 36 people and did an in-depth analysis of 22 law firms to really learn how do they go about managing innovative ideas. So that's, what's like the long story to this report.
[00:05:18] Ab: [00:05:18] Yeah. And that's really helpful context.
[00:05:20] Having that success rate of, 80, 90% for innovation efforts is remarkable if it was true. And really, as you, as you were talking, it's obviously there's a disconnect between those that are maybe doing the project, plus maybe those that are funding the project or the projects are being reported to, and it's a measurement problem as I'm sure we'll get into it a little bit time.
[00:05:45]Innovation as a process [00:05:45]
[00:05:45]What I really liked from the report was the framing of innovation as a process. In that. Yes, of course, every firm, every business, maybe every vertical will approach it in a slightly different way, but it is not this black box that you can't put certain project type milestones in place for. It is something that's repeatable.
[00:06:09] Do you mind expanding on that a little bit more and what you found, especially as you spoke to these these 35, 36 people what were some of the things that started triggering in your mind around the process approach to this?
[00:06:21]
[00:06:21] Floor Blindenbach: [00:06:21] I've always seen innovation as a process, to be honest. And there's also a great Harvard Business Review article that also explains it. It's not only a process, it's even like a value chain, which starts with idea generation, then development and then implementation, and then scale. You need to be good at it, all these steps in order to create results, because if you're just extraordinary and creating ideas, so for instance, if you have a firm, like you're a, super-duper in doing hackathons, you get hundreds of ideas, but if you don't know how to develop them and implement them, what is it worth to create all these ideas? In that sense, innovation is really this flow, and then what we've seen over the years that even if you can implement it, but only can do it once, that's already fantastic.
[00:07:10] That's a success. But it's often of cost effective because then you put a lot of time and effort in de-risking something proving it has value, and then you leave it there. So you leave a lot of money at the table. So that's why scaling is so important. And that makes it a whole process from idea generation, development, implementation, to scaling, and you need to be able to do all of these to get results, especially financial results and a return on investment from your innovation efforts. So in that sense it's really a process. Of course, there's also like a mindset which then alludes to like the innovation culture. But as I sometimes joke, like I can't change culture, I can't change the firm's value, but I can help change the processes, I can change the metrics and with that, if you show success and with that you can change attitudes and that changes culture. So that's like how I look at it and why I think that having a process that works is so important.
[00:08:04] Ab: [00:08:04] Is it fair to say based on that, and we'll definitely touch on the culture point in a second.
[00:08:09] But from a innovation process point of view, I think from what you're saying, a- yes, you have to do all of those things and I'll link to the HBR article is a really good read.
[00:08:19] I think it's a little old now, but it's just as valid as it was then. The important thing to me is you don't have to have one person doing all of those things, there should be a effort for the entire team. In some instances you only have one person, so you unfortunately have to do a bit of everything, but in teams greater than one, it should be an effort that's carried across everyone working towards a common goal, but having different activities are all in charge of.
[00:08:50] But what you were saying that triggered the thought was to me, at least it sounds like there's two different things that you're trying to accomplish. The first is can we get success with this innovation project at all? That's can we get a win ever? And then the second thing is scaling, right?
[00:09:06] Once we proven that this is doable and the doable to me is how can we approach these projects to manage our cost and maximize our returns? And then the second thing is how can we scale that? So it's repeatable.
[00:09:21] Floor Blindenbach: [00:09:21] If I may insert, I would urge you to first look, is there a need, because often we start from what we can do, but that's actually irrelevant, but it's not about what we can do. It's what our clients need us to do or ask us to do.
[00:09:36] Ab: [00:09:36] Great reminder. This is why I love having experts because even I just jumped to let's get things going. Let's do things, but yeah, first you do have to you do have to establish that there is indeed a need for it, so yeah, really great point.
[00:09:46] Right. Is there a difference between focusing on internal innovation projects and by the way, we say innovation projects, and I know in the research that you did. There is a huge variance in some firms doing single digit projects in a year, and some firms doing hundreds of them in a year.
[00:10:05]What can be considered an innovation project [00:10:05]
[00:10:05] It does define what an innovation project is, what the scope of that might be, it doesn't have to be one thing. But from your perspective, what is an innovation project? What does it mean?
[00:10:14] Floor Blindenbach: [00:10:14] I have a pretty broad definition, as long as you, like you embark on an idea and something that the firm has not done before for our methodology and we typically look at projects that impact clients. So this can be a new process, can be a technology, can be a new practice group can be improvement. However, it needs to be something that has an direct or an indirect benefit to client. So in that sense, it has to be somewhat a new element, but the firm does not need to be the first one on the globe to embark on that mission for it to be called, innovation.
[00:10:50]Ab: [00:10:50] It doesn't have to be brand new for the market. It just has to be new for that firm or that practice or that team.
[00:10:56] Floor Blindenbach: [00:10:56] Yeah. Yeah. And then you get on different pet peeve of mine. And I don't know if it's relevant for this discussion, but since I have guided so many teams and we do know like for radically new projects, like new to the globe, Or something that's more incremental.
[00:11:13] Something that's from has already somewhat done. You need different management styles or because incremental projects, they can get support and find support within the firm. But if you have something that's really, truly new, typically as a team, you need to find like a support outside of the firm to back you up inside the firm.
[00:11:34] Then being said, it's important to know how novel your project actually is, but I've gotten so many teams. If I asked innovator for teams, they all say like on a scale to one to 10 all fall on the skill of eight to 10, which again can't be true. So I do think that most teams have great difficulty in estimating how novel their approach actually is.
[00:11:55] And they all want to present themselves as more normal than they may actually be.
[00:12:00] Ab: [00:12:00] Yeah, and I think it's, it is worth keeping in mind the goal for these projects and really why you're trying to. Introduce the management philosophy to these innovation projects.
[00:12:15] And I'm just going to frankly, quote something that you wrote in your report because you put up so well, rather than me trying to make it out and I'm quoting now it's from the report and it's innovation management helps to optimize the innovation process, identify bottlenecks and increase the productivity of innovation, investment and resources, because that should apply to frankly, everything right. But your project is tiny. Whether it's an incremental innovation type project or a new shiny thing, you're trying to implement that has great long lasting impact for years to come. That's really why you want to do that because it's important, right? We're not just trying to introduce and apply a framework for the sake of applying a framework.
[00:12:53] There is very real and tangible results that come with it. Where firms don't have a generally a very well documented, let's just say, or clearly articulated process. But I think they are doing something along those lines, right there, there is some work being done.
[00:13:10] What's the difference in measurement? And that sort of goes back to that crazy high success rate. What do you think is a missing piece in why some individuals think that they're getting a 90% hit rate on innovation wins and the management team or others at the same business think that they're only getting a 10% or lower rate.
[00:13:30]What's the missing piece there?
[00:13:33]Tracking innovation projects [00:13:33]Floor Blindenbach: [00:13:33] It's I think tracking innovation process from projects from start to finish . Starting an innovation project is really eas. Anyone can start an innovation project, finishing it in whatever form with a, because you quickly figure out it's not worth it, or because you have developed a successful new outcome that's really difficult. So what management often sees, like at the beginning of the year and the budgeting season, I would say like an IT, I may even have a quote in the report. Someone said wait, I think the numbers were like, they start at 44 project. So they've got approval for 44 projects.
[00:14:08] And at the end of the year, when they, but review management, sees them again and see 12 project got implemented. I was asking specifically about success rates and to that yeah ten projects never came off the ground, but it still leaves about 18 projects that no one knows what happened.
[00:14:29] And I've been in the shoes of innovation managers. It drove me to do my PhD in innovation management, but also when I was in a function where it was guiding innovation projects, what for me was very frustrating to see is when you guide teams one after the other, you see where they stand.
[00:14:48] So you see in this process that sometimes there are organizational bottlenecks.
[00:14:52] I saw all my teams struggle with that. And as a result, my fellows left. One was getting married. One went back to all kinds of reasons. So for management, or if they looked at these, this program, they said the people leave because of personal reasons. Because we didn't track it. But if I I knew because I had been tracking them that they're all came to certain points and then just took too much energy and too much time.
[00:15:18] And they just felt that they were wasting it. Then there was greener grass elsewhere. There were like, I'm not gonna push against this organization. I'll take my stuff with me and move on. And I think if you don't have a structured process, that's what you're missing. So you don't see where in the organization, things fall apart.
[00:15:36] You don't see in the value chain that we discussed earlier, like where are you weak? And so then you can start improving. So that's why it's so important to track these projects, but that means that you need metrics. You need to at least need to follow themes. And again, that's something that's In law firms, people work very autonomously.
[00:15:53]You have recording per hour and clients typically are the benchmark for success but then you have internal projects when you get to funding who follows those projects? Usually there's not a real good mechanism for it. So as an innovation manager and especially because they typically don't have the budgets or oversee the budget, how do you keep track of your projects if you don't have some kind of metrics for it? So that's just a common problem that we have seen which is what we've tried to solve.
[00:16:24] Yeah,
[00:16:24] Ab: [00:16:24] I think, and I think that bleeds into the culture point a little bit as well, because part of it is around how do you set up this culture at the firm that actually encourages people to take part in these projects, but also opens the innovation work to be a bit more collaborative. And not just internally because if I'm a partner who's championing that project. It's in my vested interest to get my team involved in most instances, because I want it to be successful because I'm the champion, but how do you actually get that across the firm, but also how do you make sure that it's set up in a way where you are including your client, you're including other third parties.
[00:17:06] So if they are vendors, and consultants and so on and that's a really difficult challenge to solve. As I said, you and I can't solve the culture challenge for the firm, but I think it's important to, at least recognized whether that's something that's a challenge for your firm, or maybe you are one of those firms - and actually I was speaking to a firm yesterday, a large international firm, and they succumbed their associates to spend 30% of the time for six months on innovation type projects. Which is really good. And that sends a certain message to the business, of course, is not going to be for everyone, but at least a signals to the business that it's okay if someone's spending 30% of the time on this kind of work.
[00:17:45] And I wanted to share that as. Something a, because it was fresh. And on the top of my mind, and B as an example of, the kinds of things that are required from a culture point of view, to just making things a bit more open.
[00:17:57] Innovation as a way to develop talent [00:17:57]Floor Blindenbach: [00:17:57] That's a fantastic example where there is a drive from management to say, Hey, this is important.
[00:18:02] I also lost the idea that innovation is, it's a fantastic opportunity to develop your younger talent. So integrating that with saying to your associates, take this opportunity to develop not what has been done, where the firm lots of success like 10, 20 years ago. But think about like, How can the firm be successful the coming 10, 20 years.
[00:18:22] So combining that I think it's a fantastic example, but again just giving them the opportunity. I don't think it's enough because they are trained as lawyers. Innovation is not that difficult. It's much easier to teach a lawyer how to innovate than it is to teach an innovator how to do law, but just saying someone like you get 30% of your time and just do with it.
[00:18:44]It's also that makes it really daunting because like, where do you start? What all do you need to do? And the other thing is there are so many common mistakes. It's like your high school teachers telling you to write an essay. Without giving any instructions , they're certain good ways of doing it and certain worse way of doing it and even worse, even if you would be a good writer and you have written many essays, you still really benefit from editor because what you think make a lot of sense. May not make a lot of sense.
[00:19:13] So that's exactly the same. We'll be seeing innovation projects. There are a lot of do's and don'ts, if you've never done it before, you'll make beginner mistakes, which may lead your project to feel unnecessarily. But even if you've done this multiple times, you often start reasoning from the solution, not from your client's perspective.
[00:19:32] So it's really helpful to have someone look over your shoulders and just like mirror and point you at things. Another example is for instance, we know that testing your assumptions is really important, but explicating the assumptions you're making is really difficult. For an outsider , it's really easy, for me if I hear teams talk and so if I train the team, I hear all the assumptions they're making, but for them they are truth. So are those small things where you can really, I think help someone. So just giving people the opportunity. That's an, a very important first step.
[00:20:04] It's absolutely awesome. It's the first step into culture, but I would urge like also build some structure around that and have the process so that it's not only starting, but in the end you want all these initiatives to be successful.
[00:20:19]Ab: [00:20:19] That's such an important point because, and then you said it so well that, what may sound like an assumption to an outsider just becomes a truism for those that are, cause it's not that you're involved in it just recently, in most instances, this has been your work for X amount of time. You're living this day in day out. You're so close to it. You develop some natural blind spots to it, and it's important for someone else to come and test that.
[00:20:45] One of the other things I wanted to discuss is who should be involved. And we looked at it from the lens of talent management, which is so important, right? Having the associates or perhaps a younger meaning less experienced, let's just say in this instance, members of the team, so they can actually develop further, they can learn a number of different cross-sectional skills.
[00:21:04]What's your impression of having partners and others involved in innovation? And I'll preface this with something I hear from literally every firm I've ever spoken to in my life has been, we don't want to look at this right now because we are so busy.
[00:21:20]We don't have time to look at. Project X, because we just simply don't have to time. We have client work that needs to be delivered. How do you fit that into, because it's not an excuse. In most instances, it is the reality of the situation. People have to prioritize something.
[00:21:36]Where does the innovation projects fit into the priority matrix?
[00:21:39] Floor Blindenbach: [00:21:39] Yeah, no,
[00:21:40] there's so much to say here, but I barely know where to start. Let me start with, and I think in the report , one of our response had a beautiful quote, like the people that are busiest, they needed the most because typically in a practice that has a lot of work. There's so much opportunity probably to automate and scale. And usually these are practices that make money. So there's also funding to invest and see if you can do even more. Would say those are typically the areas where there is most opportunity to optimize and and create even more and more, do more with.
[00:22:13] Less effort. So I think that's very fertile ground. I've written for the PDMA, which is the product development management association book a chapter in a book on constraints in the innovation process. And the constraints I addressed is when time commitment is the largest constraint. So I know all about people that are super busy and has to innovate on top of their regular job.
[00:22:36] At the same time. There's a lot of the research I did also as a PhD student in the professional services to the state of the art and knowledge is with those that are practicing it day to day, it's melting the R&D department. We even have like firms that have dismantled their R&D department because it just didn't work.
[00:22:52] That means that these very busy professionals that they have a very successful career. They're the ones that also need to drive innovation for days. Where did we find the time? And that's the thing where the combination with talent development is so important because typically they do feel very obliged to train the next generation of talent.
[00:23:13] So if in this next generation, so these associates or junior partners, or whoever is like there to take over. They can run with this innovation projects and innovation it's work. People try to wish it away and try to say Oh, it's idea generation you can do in the shower. But developing and implementing an idea just takes quite a lot of time.
[00:23:37] Then you can get expertise in everything, but in the end it is. If you take in this case, it's very busy veil and very well-run practice that was already overloaded with work it's to innovate their processes. So anyone from the outside cannot say thou shall do this differently. That's just not how it works.
[00:23:58] Innovation in teams [00:23:58] It needs from the inside. That's where the drive needs to come from. And that's also the knowledge that's there. Like what the clients need, what goes well, where there's room for optimization. So you need to have the input. But as I said this is where you need a team works. Not everyone needs to work the same amounts.
[00:24:16] This, I think there are so many misconceptions about what a team is, especially in innovation team. And innovation team is a very dynamic whole, so you can start with one person. They can start doing the ground work of doing competitor analysis, interviewing clients, looking what's out there, making the value proposition, making the business case.
[00:24:36] And then once there's value there, you can start adding on IT people if needed. So you can slowly build a team and it's not the case that the person that started it needs to finish it. Because there's some people that are really good at the early stages, that love to investigate, and others that love to build.
[00:24:53] So innovation teams should be dynamic. There should be people going in and out. So that's again, like I can provide you with resources. There's plenty written about that. I'm gone. I wrote about X teams. Innovation teams have to be dynamic. And that's also one of the other things. It has to be a team.
[00:25:13] You can start as an individual, but you can't finish as an individual. There's just too much to it.
[00:25:18]Ab: [00:25:18] And I think, we can talk about each of those for quite, quite some time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And maybe we'll have a follow-up conversation on some of those points, but I did want to mention on some of these things and you call this out in the report.
[00:25:33] It's important to, if you are, positioning yourself or some form in the business as a innovation team or a innovation unit or whatever it must innovate. It cannot just be innovation in name only is I think what you classified it as in the report. It's not just about doing the lip service, not just saying, Hey, we are innovative because people will see through that pretty quickly.
[00:25:58] And yeah. It's okay. If you don't succeed all the time, that's absolutely acceptable, but you must try and do something. And one of the other things that you talked about, as much as you are being dynamic, you must also, at least in my opinion, please agree or disagree as you will. I think you must also be dynamic with your budget with law firms.
[00:26:18] Often there is a annual budget, and you're trying to look ahead into the next 12 months to say, what will we work on? In theory, that's okay. If you have a very good understanding of everything that you're working on today, if you already have a compiled list of all the initiatives. As we talked about earlier that doesn't seem to be the case, right?
[00:26:37]So you have to be able to have some sort of flexibility built in that once a quarter, once every six months, some non annual period we will have flexibility. If something comes up where there is an actual need, where we can measure, optimize and deliver something, we will allocate some funding to it.
[00:26:57] I'm not saying you give it a hundred percent of your budget but you must be able to prepare to take advantage of things as they come up. You can't simply wait until. The next potential instance, which may be 11 months down the line, if you've just started your new financial year.
[00:27:12]I don't know if that comes up frequently as a potential obstacle.
[00:27:15]Floor Blindenbach: [00:27:15] No, I can tell you that for the research what we looked for it's like, what were the processes being used? How are budgets allocated? And that's also that, like the maturity model that we discussed in the second part of the report were built on those.
[00:27:26] And then we so correlations with the experience. But to come back to the budget that was like a really interesting find that many firms don't budget at all for innovation projects. So there's just no budget, any project that needs to fight for its own resources we've called the ad hoc It has advantages and disadvantages But it typically means that the more senior people can get their projects finance, so to speak there because they, yeah, they can advocate.
[00:27:53] They are in the right committees. They have the ear of senior management so they can get the budgets or for a senior associates. It's nearly impossible. So just be aware at that level. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. If you just do one or two projects a year, it probably is the best way to go about it.
[00:28:08] Just make sure that if you look back that you give everyone an equal or fair chance, Then at the next level, we see that firms start to organize a bit better to have a centralized process. And typically they still don't have an innovation, but what happens? They have a knowledge management or they have an IT budget, but these budgets are, as you mentioned, they're set at the yearly basis.
[00:28:31] At ILTAON, we did the session on innovating and shoestring budgets. And when I first heard that it was interesting because it seemed like a badge of honor. And I've got to say it's amazing what you can do on a shoestring budget.
[00:28:43] That should not be a badge of honor or be promoted this like the way to innovate. Because an innovation project is worth it or not. That's why these early stages in creating a business case is so important. That was one of the things that I've learned from our research as well, like this annual budget cycle.
[00:28:59] So what happens at the beginning of the year, just as a one case, like they bought it for 44 innovation projects, 10 never get started. And then you and the owners have budgets and they never get followed up with are perhaps they run into issues or it was not as realistic as hoped or whatever, but they have the budgets.
[00:29:15] And so they basically can keep running, which is insane. And they have other project. Like we had a pandemic in 2020 that hits depending on where you cycle was, but for some it hit after the budgets were set. And so then you can change. One of the best practices I discussed in the report is, and this doesn't cost a firm any money. But it's just a different mindset of investing in innovation projects, invest from milestone, invest in what we call like an affordable loss principle, and happy to give a reference for that as well. And so you said the budget for innovation, where's, you're willing to spend say yeah, certain percent of your revenue or a certain percent of time, you can create budget for that.
[00:29:55] And then keep the flexibility on. Quarter or a quarterly or even bi-monthly basis to allocate those funds and on the milestone based budget. So teams need to prove even if you have gotten funding at the start, that doesn't mean that you get funding all the way to the end, because it can be that midway, for instance, if a vendor comes up with a better solution or you were developing something, in-house, you need then to have the flexibility to say Hey, awesome work you did. But we are now competing suddenly with this vendor that came out with this announcement, they seem to be further along. It doesn't make sense to keep funding this project. So those are like the dynamics, if you, but you need in your budgeting and evaluation cycles, we call it portfolio management.
[00:30:39] And that's just something that the. Did not see, that's what we know of. Like from the innovation management district, that's like that next level onto you of managing your projects. You start optimizing, you start looking at your portfolio as a whole, like how well is it linked this strategy we're going to optimize.
[00:30:54] We didn't see that in the firms, in our sample, at least.
[00:30:57] Ab: [00:30:57] And as you're saying that, I was having certain internal reactions to what you were saying around, Oh, we'll stop on an internal project and fund this other project that was just announced.
[00:31:08]So anyone listening when you have those reactions, please do share them with me and with us. Because honestly, those are important things to work through because especially if a lot of work and effort has gone into a project if there is internal will and comradery for a project it's difficult to disengage.
[00:31:30] It is very difficult to disengage, right? If you feel like you own that project, it is a difficult thing to acknowledge that there is something else out there, which is a better option. But that's a decision that you need to make from time to time. Yeah. And that's why I was having that reaction and I'm sure others will.
[00:31:46]So although we are saying all of these things, we are looking at this in a very objective way. The reality is never going to be that clear cut. Yeah, we'd love to hear thoughts and opinions on that for sure.
[00:31:57] Floor Blindenbach: [00:31:57] Yeah,
[00:31:57] no, that's very, you have to need to have that healthy balance of very passionate people that are driving it.
[00:32:03] And then the rational people that's I think the role of an innovation manager to facilitate is an offer that crying shoulder. Yeah, they need to make a team aware that they perhaps are fighting for something that's just the time and effort is better spent elsewhere.
[00:32:18] Ab: [00:32:18] Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:32:20] That was a great conversation. We. Just scrastched the tip of the iceberg. I will encourage people to go and look at the report, which is a, if you're seeing this on LinkedIn, it's posted in the comments. If you see listening to this, it's in the show notes at fringelegal.com.
[00:32:33]But read the report is 23 pages of goodness. Some of the things we didn't talk about today, which we alluded to is the maturity model that's in the report. Definitely. We're looking into that. And one of my favorite topics, which is around portfolio slash innovation, pipeline management. I love talking about that stuff.
[00:32:48]But we didn't get into it today. Floor, I wanted to thank you for coming on. If people want to find out more, if they want to learn more, other than just reading the report, where can they get in touch with you?
[00:32:58] Floor Blindenbach: [00:32:58] We have our websites www.Organizing4Innovation.com
[00:33:05]I that's the only advantage having a really strange name, Floor Blinderbach, but I'm the only one on the planet. So if you find me on LinkedIn, we frequently write blogs. So find me on LinkedIn. Yeah. Feel free to send me a direct message. If you have questions about our report or a podcast .
[00:33:22] There's so much opportunity out there. If you start with my introduction, my goal is to really help innovators deliver successful outcomes.
[00:33:31] Ab: [00:33:31] Yeah. And this is probably the second or third conversation I've had with Floor and yeah, it's absolutely worth speaking to her because she has a whole wealth of experience and from different verticals as well. So she can certainly share some some best practices and some things that you probably want to avoid.
[00:33:46] But thank you again, Floor. Wonderful having you on. Show notes are at frenchlegal.com. Find out resources to Floor's website and to her LinkedIn and other socials. And you can connect with her there.
[00:33:57] Thank you so much and see you next time.
[00:33:59]
Alice Stephenson is a founder and tech lawyer driving inclusion and innovation in law and promoting individuality within the legal profession.
Alice founded Stephenson Law in 2017 to create a law firm that does things differently. Tackling each stereotype head-on, she is on a mission to build a forward-thinking, innovative law firm that puts people at the heart of everything it does.
Alice's goal is to inspire young women to challenge the perceived barriers to success and see that anything is possible.
In this episode we discuss:
07:23 - Problem-solving
11:00 - Self-reflection and being comfortable with mistakes
13:57 - Client experience
18:27 - Measuring lawyer value outside of billable targets
22:44 - Breaking down barriers
Full Transcript on FringeLegal.com
Alice Stephenson - Breaking down barriers
Ab: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. And welcome to the Fringe Legal podcast. I am thrilled to have Alice Stephenson as my guest today. Alice is the founder and a tech lawyer driving inclusion and innovation in law and promoting individuality within the legal profession. Alice founded Stevenson law in 2017 to create a law firm that does things differently.
Alice's goal is to inspire young women, to challenge the perceived barriers, to succeed and see that anything's possible. We'll dig into much of that today, but before we get started, I thought it'd be helpful to give a little bit of a background of Alice's story if you haven't come across it already.
So Alice is probably not the person you would imagine when you think of a lawyer and a law firm owner.
She had her first child at 18, and despite conventional wisdom qualified as a lawyer nine months after having her second child and the theme of nine months continues, because nine months after having her third child, she founded Stevenson Law and the firm is doing wonderfully. They won, Botique Law Firm of the Year 2020 .
And yeah, I'm really thrilled to have Alice on the show because I came across her on LinkedIn through one of her posts where she talks about all of the different barriers. She had to break down to enter the legal profession. And I know plenty of people for whom that actually becomes a hurdle.
They haven't been able to overcome for many reasons. So I thought it was important to have a discussion around that. Alice, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Alice Stephenson: [00:02:27] Hi, thank you for having me.
Ab: [00:02:29] Yeah. And I know you're based on the other side of the world. You have a very English accent, but you're in Amsterdam.
So hopefully the canals and the cycling and everything else is treating you nicely.
Alice Stephenson: [00:02:39] Yes. Yes. Thank you.
Ab: [00:02:42] So there's really three things I wanted to try and cover today. We'll start with something that relates to your story. You talk a lot about breaking down barriers. And as I mentioned in the prelude, that's how I came across you.
You've been, let's call it outspoken on LinkedIn and rightly so around how to make the profession less gray and more individual and helping people to bring about their personality. We talked about tattoos and you've talked about tattoos in the past and I have a whole back full of tattoos so I certainly admire that.
And you've talked about how being a woman or having kids at an early stage, and basically how all the challenges you had to overcome to get to where you are. Talk to me where you are today with that and how that shaped your journey into the legal profession.
Tackling challenges [00:03:29] Alice Stephenson: [00:03:29] Sure. I think we all have so many challenges and obstacles that we come up against whatever path we choose.
But I guess we all have slightly different ways of dealing with them and approaching them. I think they're my biggest obstacle has always been having a child at such a young age. I was only 18 when I had Lydia. And that was obviously a massive obstacle to starting a career, to getting to getting my first degree.
Obviously, having her has been one of the most wonderful things in my life, but there's no doubt that it's certainly made some things a lot harder particularly cause I didn't have a lot of support at the time. So I think I launched into adulthood with a pretty big problem that I needed to deal with like how was I going to support myself and support my child and make something of myself . And I had to get on with it really. I just, I tackled it a bit, like just a problem. If I want to get a job, that's gonna pay me a decent salary, then, convention dictates that the best way of doing that is to get a degree, to get education.
So I was followed a process really, and figured out the best way that I was going to be able to do it, which university I went to, which course I went to, how I was going to pay for that, all of the different parts of the puzzle, and then fitted them all together. And I've applied that logic to all of the problems that I've encountered ever since then.
So when I applied to getting a training contract I had a problem because I didn't get very good A-levels because when I take my A-levels, I was seven months pregnant and obviously lots of law firms still take A-levels into account. That made things a lot harder and I had to find this way around that.
And then starting my own firm. So many people told me that I wasn't going to be able to do it. They were going to be, there were so many reasons insurance was going to be too expensive or I wasn't even going to be able to get insurance. I wasn't going to be able to get authorization from the SRA.
I wasn't going to be able to find any clients. I wasn't going to have to find anyone to work for me. I wasn't gonna be able to make any money, honestly the list was endless and I could have quite easily have just thought, Oh, do you know what this sounds like far too much effort required - I'm not going to bother.
But I think it, that's not really the way that my brain works. I look at each part of it as an individual problem and try and solve that problem and break it down into small chunks. And what happens is when you do that, actually it does so fall into place and you move along one small step at a time. But when you look back, you actually realize how much you've achieved just by doing it like that.
Ab: [00:06:26] There's so many things that you're saying, some of which I can definitely relate to because just getting into law school, getting into university. It's a challenge and you have to keep going. Sometimes you do have to problem solve.
And the law firm point is so interesting because I know so many tech company founders, and generally the message that they get, across the board, is not that, Oh, don't do it right? It's almost a Silicon Valley culture of you should do it, just jump in it's okay. It will be difficult, no one argues that it's going to be difficult, but you can figure it out. But for law and FinTech and a lot of these kinds of quite heavily regulated professions it's almost as a hindrance for new entrance. And then we have this conversation, Oh, the profession is not changing things. Aren't changing. They're the same. And there is a very real link to you keep discouraging people from coming in and trying new ideas. Why do you think things will change?
Problem solving [00:07:23]
I'm sure things, as you've been progressing with the firm, having just got magically easier. So how do you tackle challenges today? How do you think about them now? Because I think probably I'm making this assumption that the types of challenges and the problems you're looking to solve today are probably quite different to when you were 18.
But is your methodology kind of similar or are you thinking about problem solving in a different way?
Alice Stephenson: [00:07:46] I think fundamentally I'm still the same person and I still largely have the same approach, but I've learned so much over the last 20 years.
And obviously that does affect the way that I approach problems. I think some of the key things that I've learned are that I can't do everything myself. I've always had this drive to be fiercely independent and to show people that I'm very capable and there's almost this kind of feeling that if you rely on other people, then that's somehow a poor reflection on you.
But one of the things I've really learned over the last couple of years is that you need other people you can't do it all yourself. You can't know everything yourself. It's just not possible. And actually there are so many people out there that can do stuff that's way better than you could possibly do it.
It's really important, I think, to be able to self-reflect on the things that you're good at, the things that you're not good at and to build a team around you. Whether you're running a business or even just in your personal life, whatever it is that you're doing, you still need that support network around you, and you still need people to be able to help you in the areas that you're not so strong at.
I definitely now more so than I did in the past, rely on my support network a lot more when I'm making decisions. And I guess as I've got older, I've probably become a little bit less impulsive about making decisions. And I have to be now, I've got a reasonably sized business considering where it's come from.
And I've got three children, I've got, lots of people are dependent on me. And I've got a responsibility to them to do what's in their best interest. I'm definitely less inclined to rush into decisions. Although I'm still very much led by my gut. I'm definitely a very sort of instinctual person.
I have strong instincts and my gut doesn't normally let me down. But it's a kind of assessment now of this is what my gut's telling me. This is what the facts are telling me. This is what. The people around me that know more than I do are telling me. I'm putting all of that together and deciding what's the best, what's the best thing to do in this situation?
Ab: [00:10:08] Yeah.
I'm always really fascinated around. How people make decisions and your points about self-reflection. I have arguments with my wife , because she's the same way, where she's I make decisions from my instincts and my gut. And this is where I put my sort of scientists hat on and say that's great so do most people, but I like to be able to validate them. And I guess like sometimes as, I've matured and learnt a bit more, it's the same thing they just called mental models, but it's the same sort of thing, where I like to hone in, even if I'm making a gut decision. On reflecting on it. Why did I lean that way? What was the reason that led me to that? That's just me personally, but because similar to you, I try not to be super impulsive, but there are times where you'd need to be able to make a decision without needing to spend, days thinking about it or hours thinking about it.
Self reflection and mistakes [00:11:00]Yeah. As you think about self-reflection, I'm just curious, how what's your process? Do you have a process how do you get through sort of those reflection points?
Alice Stephenson: [00:11:09] Yeah. I think exercises is a really important part of my life and way of de-stressing and clearing my mind, I think in terms of what prompts me to self-reflect I think, I've made quite a lot of mistakes over the last three years, three and a half years since I started my business things haven't gone the way that I've wanted them to go.
And I think. I think it's really important that every time that happens, I reflect on what's caused this to go wrong. And what's my part been in that we can't all make the right decisions all the time, because obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, that's a wonderful thing.
It's not so much about kind of beating yourself up and thinking I should have known that was the wrong decision when I made it, but I think there's still always things that you can learn from it. So like recruitment has been a massive learning curve for us. Because I'm quite an instinctual. That kind of fed into my recruitment. And there's a couple of problems with that. A- I think, I can't assess somebody's professional competence through my instinct. I can assess whether I think they're going to be a good cultural fit for the business.
Whether I think they've got the right attitude for what I need, but I can't assess somebody's professional skills and competence as a lawyer that way. And I think the other issue with that is that you you're not taking into account any unconscious bias that you've got as well which is obviously really important.
So . And I guess, we've had some recruitment decisions that haven't worked out and then you go back and reflect on why didn't that work out? And actually our recruitment process is just not good enough. We're not evaluating people properly. We're not giving people an opportunity to demonstrate their skills and we're not making the right decisions.
So it's that kind of process that we're working through all of the time.
Ab: [00:13:06] Yeah. And I love that because I imagine as you transitioned from a lawyer, a legal practitioner consultant, all of those things to a business owner, and then as you scale the business, there's probably a whole plethora of things that you have no experience and probably don't even know where to begin. Recruitment building your tech stack around you , selecting the right team, knowing who, where you need to expand on it. I know one of the things the firm does differently, maybe not differently, but certainly that stands out to me is you have a social media marketing manager, right?
That's not really that common within the legal sphere. How do you learn who to hire, what qualities to look for? Because the lawyer lens is probably going to lean you, lead you into a direction that may not be what you want, if you're trying to set up a different firm. And hopefully that's a good enough segue to that topic.
Client Experience [00:13:57]
As you've been growing Stevenson Law I know you talk about the firm being different and I imagine it feels different to your clients. What is the client experience like? So if I only as a client, I've only experienced "traditional law", quote/unquote for anyone listening rather than watching, what would coming to you, what would my experience feel like? Will it feel like I've just stepped into a startup in the 2010s or feel like a hybrid between, a traditional law firm and a startup. Where would you land?
Alice Stephenson: [00:14:29] Yeah. It's a really interesting question. It's probably one that we should actually go out and ask our clients to see what they actually would say about this.
I think one of our USP's, which has being taken away from us slightly, now everybody is homeworking I think, was the fact that when our clients met us, we are a lot more relaxed that we don't dress up in suits, we didn't have formal corporate offices - everything about where we work and what we wear has always been a lot more relaxed.
And that was definitely something that made quite a first impassion for clients when they came and met us. Because it didn't feel like they were coming to meet a lawyer. It felt like, they were going to chat to, anybody: a marketing agency or, a development agency. But I guess the ethos of what that was all about is still there in the sense that what we're trying to do, and I talk a lot about breaking down barriers, and there's a lot of barriers that exist between law firms and clients. And one of those for example, is language. So lawyers like to use a lot of language that the non lawyers don't necessarily understand unless they went to law school.
And a lot of that language is completely pointless. Doesn't need to be used and actually trying to communicate in a way that actually just lawyers can understand. It's just better for everybody. They can understand what you're saying. You can engage with your clients better. And from the client perspective, it's a much more enjoyable experience because they know what on earth is going on.
Language is obviously one of them we're trying to offer our services in a slightly different way as well. So our primary method of providing legal services is through subscriptions. We're in the process at the moment of developing our different subscription models. Yeah.
But it's a really exciting opportunity for us. I think, to be able to deliver some legal services in a slightly different, more productize way to our clients, so that they've got a lot more transparency around what they're going to get, how much it's going to cost them, who they're going to be working with and seeing us a bit more like a kind of SaaS provider in that sense rather than, rather than a law firm that nobody really understands what is going on or what they're paying, what they're paying for all of those things. I think there's a real lack of transparency typically around that.
Ab: [00:17:13] And I think that obviously shows in the makeup of your team. As I was looking through the other individuals at Stephenson Law, your wider team, you have someone who manages your subscriptions. So at least to me, it's a strong signal that you take those kinds of things seriously. It's not just, hey, we're doing it just because we want to let it be known that we're doing it.
You actually building processes around that. And that's super important. The language thing is so crucial because contracting should be more human, generally speaking. And, basically using jargon builds barriers rather than breaks those barriers.
If you want two parties to agree on something, make it as easy for both parties to understand the terms equally without requiring additional help. Of course you need to make sure that it's still, it offers you the same protections and all of that kind of stuff. But I think it's certainly achievable, not easy but achievable.
And the transparency point is key. One of the things that gets talked about a lot is that the point about the billable hour, right? On why it's dying, all of that kind of stuff. And I don't expect you to just fill all of your secrets around pricing and how you price.
Absolutely not. But.
Measuring lawyer value outside of billable targets [00:18:27]
How do you think about, in lieu of having billable targets for your lawyers? And maybe I'm thinking more from a culture point of view, because those that are coming in and joining your firm as a fear there. If they're only used to having billable targets, right?
How did they adjust into having and working with a different model, but there isn't that number target on their head that you have to achieve 2,800 hours a year or whatever it might be. How do they feel and how do you encourage them to basically link what they do to the value they're providing to the clients and the revenue and profitability for the business.
Alice Stephenson: [00:19:04] It's a really difficult question. And I can't actually claim to know the answer because it's something that we're trying to figure out ourselves. And, the billable hour is still really important. The moment we haven't found a replacement for it . Although, we are trying to step away from it as much as possible when it comes to the way that we're charging for our work.
But ultimately we're still a service-based business, and our primary unit is time. So the billable hour is still there.
What we try and do is view it slightly differently. So I think there's probably three aspects of the billable hour.
There's how do you charge for your time? How do you measure the performance of your lawyers? And, there's how do you measure the revenue and the profitability and, the internal financial metrics of the business? The billable hour is overused as a performance metric for lawyers.
I think too much emphasis is put on it and what we should be doing is taking a much more holistic view over performance. I've heard so many stories about people being refused, passed over for promotion because they haven't met a billable hours target. But, they were on secondment for half of the year. So there was just no way that they could have met it. There's just some ridiculous reason that in no way, reflects on their ability to do their job because they haven't ticked that box. They've hit a blocker. I think that is really wrong. I think there's also, there's also the aspect that I think recording and measuring people by billable hours encourages people to be inefficient.
It encourages time them paying it, encourages people to work really slowly. It doesn't encourage collaboration between the team. I've seen it myself when I was in private practice. People hope work because they know that if they give this work away, then they're not going to be able to meet that target.
Even though they might not be the best person to be doing that work in the first place.
Ab: [00:21:19] As you said at the beginning, just that there needs to be a good replacement, breaking any habit you need to replace it with something. And my concern, because I hear so many of those stories some of what you said, I haven't come across, but I hear sent me a lot of people overworking.
So again, you're creating this culture where people almost wear it as a badge of honor: "Hey, I was up till two, three o'clock in the morning working away". And that's not okay. Because it's not sustainable. It's just not sustainable. Yeah. Fine. If you have to do it, we've all done it at some point and it's okay if you have to do every now and then, but it shouldn't be something that you're proud of and it shouldn't be something as a responsible business, you should be like, great I'm so happy that you're working 18/19 hours a day repeatedly. And it's just creating the culture and providing the incentives that drive towards that culture. And at the moment there's a misalignment there because the things you talked about secondment, and I know you went and you worked for EE and other companies.
I know many people who are all sorts of exceptional, other types of individuals, because they've taken secondment, because they've spent the time working on client side because you get a fresh perspective. But if you feel as if there's going to be a penalty for it, because you can't now hit your target, then you know, many people will not choose that option where actually probably for the long-term benefit of the firm, that's the thing they should be doing.
Alice Stephenson: [00:22:42] Yeah, 100%.
Breaking down barriers [00:22:44] Ab: [00:22:44] Perfect. Look, I'm conscious of your time. We have about five or so minutes left. I know you're very open and visible everywhere. And actually I love that because it allows me to do my research and find out that you're into CrossFit, that you're into plant-based lifestyle and all of those things.
I know one of the things that is near and dear to you is how you help certainly young women break down the barriers. So we'll focus on that audience for now that demographic for the moment.
So yeah, the platform is yours to share your message as much as you want on this, on how to encourage young woman to break down barriers.
Alice Stephenson: [00:23:18] Okay. I think, the primary way in which I'm trying to do that is through sharing my own story, sharing my own thoughts and opinions, challenging perspectives that I think are outdated.
So for example, a lot of the inclusion and equality issues in the legal industry. So trying to challenge those and the people that hold those perspectives. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to work with people on a one-to-one basis. Although, I'd love to be able to do that one day, but at the moment it's not something that I can do.
I get a lot of messages from people saying that, just through reading about what I've overcome and how I've done that the actually that's really helped them to feel a bit more confident, to not give up hope. Whether it's trying to find a training contract. I've got my blog where I've written about, some tips to try and get training contracts or tips to start a law firm.
So it's just trying to put as much helpful content out there as possible, whether it's practical tips, whether it's just a bit of motivation, you can do this, don't give up, honestly, you can absolutely do this, but it's talking to people like you as well to help share the message.
And it is, I think, it is working, like you said, I'm quite visible now on social media. And people are picking up on it. And I think that's great because I do get lots of really lovely messages from people saying that my content does help them. And that's what it's all for really.
So that's really great.
Ab: [00:25:04] Yeah, and I love that you are on so many different networks. I think, is it right that you Stephenson Law was the first law firm, English law firm, to be on Tiktok?
Alice Stephenson: [00:25:15] We do think so. We haven't been able to find any others. So we've claimed that title. And we haven't yet been challenged on it, so yeah.
Ab: [00:25:23] Fair enough. Yeah. And I think it's good, right? It shows that sort of, that level of personality that often is missing. And I have to say one of the side effects and the nice things that's happened since the whole world has gone into lockdown and so on- you get to see a lot more into people's lives, right?
It's no longer just a sort of corporate background. I love the fact that people's calls are interrupted by their dogs or their kids delivering cookies and things of that nature because it's wonderful. It's fine. It's real life. It happens. And it's really nice to be able to see that. And I did, I sold I think the video that you posted off your PA or assistant, just interrupting your call accidentally and those kinds of things are good.
They're right. Sometimes you just need a good laugh. Yeah,
absolutely.
For sure. So if people want to find out more about you and what you do I know you said you have a blog that's probably the best place because I know that links out to all of your socials, all of the articles and things you've been featured in is that AliceStevenson.com?
Yes. Perfect. So I'll link to that. I'll link to your socials as well. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure speaking to you, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
Thank you.
Innovation and Transformation Perspectives From Around the World
Ab: [00:00:00] Innovation and transformation perspectives from around the world
There is tremendous variability in how the legal industry approaches innovation and technology initiatives, and the range is greater still when you expand the scope to different jurisdictions and regions worldwide.
Through a series of interviews with innovation leaders and a review of published materials. I explored some of the factors that influence innovation levels across different regions. Namely, we focused on the UK., a number of African nations, Australia, and India.
What I've found is that many interrelated factors are at play: regional regulations, the maturity of the legal services industry, competitive pressures, and willingness to make financial investments in innovation and technology initiatives. Of course, there are also significant variations across firms within the same region, mostly influenced by the business culture.
Before we consider those factors in depth. We must define what we mean by innovation and evaluate the goals underlying innovative actions.
The spectrum of innovation
Innovation is not a monolith. It runs along a spectrum from the minuscule to the majestic and encompasses technology process or both.
At one end are incremental changes to existing method or processes. These efficiency drivers are often small initially, yet over time they could produce marked results. On the other side of the spectrum are seismic disruptions, which may involve doing something in an entirely novel way or something that no one has done before. The disruption reinvents how a firm completes a task or follows a process.
Innovation is, therefore, a process of both incremental changes and seismic shifts. It may affect technology and processes as each will have different primary challenges. With technological innovation adoption is often the biggest challenge. How do you get users engaged and active with technology so the business yields a positive return on investment.
Process changes on the other hand may or may not involve technology. In these instances often change management is the obstacle to overcome. How do you introduce the change and convinced legal professionals to embrace it? This begs another question. Why innovate at all?
What's the purpose behind innovation?
Before a firm embarks on a transformation journey, the business needs to establish what it's looking to accomplish? There are regional factors that introduce a difference in approach, but also common ground to be found. I spoke with Caryn Sandler, Partner & Chief Knowledge and Innovation Officer at the leading Australian from Gilbert and Tobin, who explains.
And I quote.
There is a large variation within and between geographies. with some firms engaging and pushing the boundaries of what can be done in this space, and others only starting the transformation journey. There is now a general recognition in legal of the imperative for innovation and transformation globally, and we're seeing different ways of achieving that goal play out within law firms and in-house.
End quote.
These regional variations impact the type of initiative that a firm may undertake. In new and emerging legal markets, it's harder to justify spending money on technology where the business needs have yet to be proven. Instead, we find that these areas may readily embrace new processes- as they don't have the inertia of established methods to overcome.
On the other hand, in mature and highly competitive legal markets, law firm and legal service providers can I add value for the client by making incremental efficiency improvements. Those firm's are likely focused on adopting technology, getting it off the shelf and into their practitioner's hand as quickly and as smoothly as possible.
Lastly, some firms are looking to bring the client along on the transformation journey. They can do so by including the clients into technology and innovation design process. These firms often find value in adding a consultancy arm that can provide dedicated innovation services and digital transformation assistance. In all kinds of markets, firms are also exploring how they can pivot perhaps by setting up technology incubators, or otherwise investing in legal technology, startups.
Factors driving innovation, UK, Australia, African nations, and India
While there are numerous forces influencing innovation around the world, I have roughly classified them into four broad categories.
Number one, the legal system and regulatory structure. Number two, the maturity of the legal profession. Number three, the level of competition in the region. And lastly, number four, the sensitivity to spending on technology or innovation efforts.
Let's consider each of these in turn.
The legal and regulatory system.
Regulations can constrain innovation, and so can the flexibility and makeup or the legal system. There may be more opportunity and less constraint in emerging markets with less regulation and fewer established firms. These open markets can present considerable gaps in service, creating opportunities for firms to innovate and quickly move the needle on providing services.
In more heavily regulated market. The amount of work required to bring about substansive changes is significant and fewer players will attempt to do so. Without a complex web of regulation, law firms have free reign to innovate.
I spoke with Cathy Truter, Head of Knowledge Management at Bowmans a top African firm with offices in seven African countries. And here's a excerpt from our discussion:
Cathy Truter: [00:06:36] There are pockets of extreme innovation and I think it's driven by opportunity in the sense that Africa is not necessarily as regulated as some of the offshore countries as I would call them.
And as a result, there is an opportunity to innovate in pockets. Where in other jurisdictions you might be held back by what is the current, and have you go through regulators to get certain approvals and the like It's in pockets. Innovation has really been fast moving.
So I think that innovative a legal practices correlate quite closely with how innovative the legal sector that they service is. What's the appetite? So in some pockets, Extremely innovative.
Ab: [00:07:29] Where regulations established cultural differences can still drive an appreciation for innovation. For example, many European countries enjoy a data centric culture that embraces AI data and analytics as elementary parts of their future successes. See notes for a link to a great article discussing this. This attitude is spilling over into the legal profession as well.
Maturity and general culture of the legal industry
The flip side of the regulatory structure is generally the maturity of the legal industry. In largely unregulated areas, the legal sector is nascent and open to new approaches. In heavily regulated areas, the profession can be so establish as to be stifling. For example, in some regions in Europe, the legal in the legal industry has a heavily institutionalized culture, which can make change an uphill battle.
Here's Cathy Truter again:
Cathy Truter: [00:08:35] If you go to a jurisdiction where they've never actually done any of those things, and they now given this new solution and this new opportunity they jump on it, grab it with both hands and they just able to use it to its maximum efficiency.
And I've seen it even with the things that we try and roll out where we really have institutionalized processes are far harder to get the lawyers to really adopt the technology and our clients adopt the technology in a way that would really benefit them.
Ab: [00:09:09] There's a balance to be found here: a region that is starting effectively from scratch may, counterintuitively not be as free to innovate because it's still. Is figuring out what needs to be done and how to do it. This tension also plays out on the micro level with individual lawyers at the firms.
The junior lawyers - commonly thought of as the most tech friendly - are often consumed with learning the law and the job such that they are less able to appreciate and embrace innovation. As a result, it's often the experience more senior associates who are the real innovators. These establish practitioners know the law, understand the necessarily results, and grasp innovation's value in reaching those results much more quickly and efficiently.
Competitive pressure
Countering an established legal markets' inertia is one of the most significant innovation drivers: business competition. Competitive pressure is perhaps the primary driver of innovation in the UK legal market, which has had to grapple with the big four accounting firms, amongst others ever since the passage of the Legal Services Act 2007.
The act allowed external ownership of law firms, known as alternative business structures - ABS. That pressure has led to some widespread practices, such as firms developing consulting arms to aid clients with legal technology. In a recent example, Mishcon de Reya has launched it's consultancy, MDR Tech to provide clients with digital transformation advice and legal engineering services. Again, refer to the notes for a link to a great article about that.
The competitive picture is similar in India. A part of the market is dominated by legal process outsourcing firms - LPOs, and independent, practitioners and law firms must decide whether they wish to compete or collaborate.
I spoke with the Head of Artificial Intelligence and Innovation for one of the largest firms in the country, Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas CAM, in New Delhi. She explains in her own words.
Komal Gupta: [00:11:26] LPOs are a class apart in using technology because they do outsourcing work, and outsourcing work as possible because of technology use. The lawyers who are working in LPOs are always going to be tech savvy lawyers and, they will be delivering legal services through technology.
So I think the pandemic has accelerated, the acceptance of technology in India. Otherwise, generally technologies that are very mature or which are easily accepted amongst the lawyers is legal research and contracts. And the third one. I hope they start realizing that proofreading is one of the very important, proofreading tools are good for them to come up with great drafts.
Ab: [00:12:15] In other emerging markets, there may be a question of who firms should consider the competition. For example, going back to Cathy Truter in Africa, she stipulates that.
Cathy Truter: [00:12:28] The jurisdictions in which we have offices are the typical jurisdictions where international clients come to invest in an emerging market like Africa. So you find that majority of our clients are international clients that operate with the best international law firms. So from our perspective, that's who we benchmark ourselves against.
Ab: [00:12:59] Jumping over an ocean to Australia, similar pressures are at work. The legal services industry there is valued at $21 billion. Check link for an article. And due to the rise of legal services provided by the big four accounting firms and disruption from a more agile streamlined quote unquote new law firms. It's become intensely competitive.
This has led to intense pressure for innovation and legal technology.
Great link here as well. Check the notes, please.
While many Australian firms are taking a cautious approac, Australia's thriving legal tech startup scene enjoyed more than $1 billion in investment in 2018. Another great article linked here.
We return back to Caryn Sandler, who notes and I quote:
Culturally, and from a legal system perspective, Australia is well-placed to take advantage of startup and legal operations growth in these geographies and we have a competitive legal market with few large players, which forces many to engage with innovation and transformation. As such, I think we're seeing a strong focus on innovation in Australia, within law firms and are starting to see in-house teams really focused on this as well.
End quote.
Investment in innovation
Unfortunately, despite the availability of legal technology offerings. Legal department across Australia tend to underinvest, allocating only 4% of the internal expenditure to technology. The source for this is quoted in the notes.
Without investment, innovation can stagnate. Conversely, with the right strategy and investment behind innovation efforts, it's possible to produce results to advance the business. and the broader profession. For example, the UK firm, Travers Smith recently open source the code for his contract labeling software - Etatonna. Again, check the notes for a source and a link
In emerging markets like India, the economies of scale can make a tremendous difference in technological investment. Because the legal industry's spending power is only equal to the value perceived by the market, firms - and vendors -have to find ways to establish the market through massive adoption of technology before necessarily seeing a full return on their investment.
To counter that challenge Indian from CAM has launched the second round of its tech incubator. And we go once again to Komal who explains:
Komal Gupta: [00:15:56] Why did Prarmbh happen? Prarambh happened because we wanted to explore domestic legal tech products.
And we realized that as we were exploring, the quality was not that great. people did not have the confidence. there was lack of demand. There was lack of supply. There was lack of investment. and that is why great products were not being made in India, Legal tech products.
And, which is the reason why we've had to subscribe to foreign technologies. There are always some shortcomings because the training has not been given, keeping in mind the Indian scenario, the Indian documents, the Indian legal environment. And that is why I think domestic talent can do best justice here, but they need encouragement. They need support. They need investment.
Ab: [00:16:49] Individual from characteristics influencing innovation
Regional factors aside, there are also undoubtedly firm specific characteristics that influence innovative approaches, likelihood and successes.
Firm's structure and culture, a high on that list along with interest, energy and investment. The more that a firm's willing to come to the table and talk about innovation and better yet to invest in it the better position that firm will be to innovate.
Gilbert + Tobin is repeatedly recognized as the most innovative firm in the Asia Pacific region. The innovation. Mindset, the innovation mindset must permeate the DNA of the business to find some successes. Here's Caryn Sandler again, and I quote:
to meet the challenges of tomorrow, the legal operations area of the firm must shift from being considered support i.e. an overhead, to an essential and expected part of high-value legal services.
To this end, we've created and nurtured a dedicated Legal Services Innovation, LSI, team to support and cultivate the development of a transformational mindset within G+T.
She continues.
This team is made up of data scientists, management consultants, capability experts, lawyers, and lean and design thinking specialists. By bringing these skillsets together on client matters, we'd leverage our diverse expertise to better support legal service delivery.
End quote.
Innovation is, in a real sense, subject to physical laws of inertia and momentum. And while 2020 has thrown everyone for a loop it has provided an enormous shot of momentum for innovation as capabilities like remote work and transaction management have taken on new importance.
Conclusion
Recognize that innovation and transformation initiatives sits along a spectrum from incremental to disruptive. Understanding the intent behind the project will allow the business to consider the best way to innovate.
As I've highlighted throughout innovation approaches vary worldwide, driven by local pressures and constraints. I'm thinking range just as much within an individual firm. However, what is undeniable is that the firm's culture is critical in directing the shape and pace of innovation. One of my favorites, quotes from the book Three Horizons my Bill Sharpe Is "the unknown off our experience is not the same as the unknown of knowledge Moving into the unknown and making it known in a new way is just what we living things do"
I leave you with that thought And the
question:
How will you foster innovation in your practice?
Contracts are crucial to the legal process, however more frequently the process of contracting can be painful. In this episode we discuss how to remove unnecessary barriers from contracts while offering the same protections, benchmarking the performance of your contracts, and Alex’s reflections on 10 years since founding Radiant Law.
Key quotes
Quotes have been extracted from the live conversation and have been edited for grammar and minor corrections.
“looking now from where we were 10 years ago when obviously no one was doing that and you know we were one of the first. There has been progress, but it's been slow. Really what's happened is that everyone's talked a lot. I fear that too many customers have been fobbed off too easily… I don't think there's been enough change, and where there has been changed, I think has been quite token”“Our contention is that contracting matters. These contracts are where you get your money into your business. So these contracts matter, but I don't think companies take it terribly seriously. I think the lawyers involved take them seriously, but they are being starved for resources and ‘more for less’ and all of that”“how you build a sane contracting process is relatively well understood. You need to put certain things in place and there's a logical sequence to it. So we started with building the contracting capability maturity model - which is a five-stage process you go through. We've actually simplified it (and that’s what's coming out in the next version basically).
There are three things you need to do. It's really simple. You have got to make it a repeatable process. You put some basic automation in place... And then it's all refinement after that, it's continuous improvement.”“I don’t think we could have grown that much faster without taking capital. And I think, taking capital would have been disastrous, because it puts a clock on you that we wouldn't have been able to keep up successfully.”“one of the great things that's happened is there are a lot more opportunities now as two interesting things I think can be associated with the industry.”Resources mentioned
Contracting Mistakes series
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1: Accepting no time for the "important, not urgent"
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2: Assuming change requires big bangs
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3: Legal should stick to the legals
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4: One more lawyer
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5: "Robust" terms
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6: Deals are different
Alex Hamilton (LinkedIn / Twitter) is the CEO and founder of Radiant Law, the UK-based award-winning NewLaw firm. Alex is focused on improving the contracting process for clients, leading product and tech development. He also regularly talks and writes on improving contracting, LawTech and the changing legal industry. He has led a number of projects that have been recognised by the FT’s Innovative Lawyer Awards. Before founding Radiant Law, he was a Partner at Latham & Watkins and co-Chair of Latham & Watkins’ global Technology Transactions Group.
Alex Low is an expert in helping businesses implement and adopt marketing and sales strategies. He regularly speaks to experts through his podcast The Death of a Salesman and applies the principles at BeyondSales and DLA ignite. Oh and he's worked in the BD function at PwC, as Client Relationship Manager at BLP (now BCLP), lead Client Dev at JLL, and more.
In this episode we discuss:
- Why good marketing and a strong personal brand has never been more important
- How to implement a marketing transformation strategy
- how corporate content vs individual content is consumedsource: dlaignite.com
- How you can reduce your recruitment costs with a good marketing strategy
- How to leverage LinkedIn to build your brand
- what can you different to strengthen your profile
- How to optimize your profile for search and storytelling
- How your brand makes you a more obvious choice in competitive pitches
During our conversation, Alex also recommended the following book: Technology vs. Humanity: The coming clash between man and machine
You can find Alex on LinkedIn.
In this episode of Fringe Legal, host Abhijat Saraswat speaks with Janet Stanton.
I reached out to Janet after having read her article on the importance of strategic client management. We discuss the topic in detail including what it means, the benefits for individuals and the firm, implementation advice, and pitfalls to avoid.
Janet is an accomplished business person who brings her experience from diverse industries and professional service organizations to bear on issues currently facing Law Land.
- Prior to Adam Smith, Esq., Janet was Director, Client Relationships Program at Orrick.
- Previously, she served as Executive Vice President at a global communications agency where she led several large, global client relationships for organizations such as Pfizer and the US Department of Defense. She also served as President of a national communications agency.
- She was personally awarded a Certificate of Appreciation by the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
Janet is a graduate of Vassar College, which she attended as a Regents Scholar. She is based in New York City.
You can read Janet’s article on the Adam Smith Esq. website, and find her on LinkedIn.
Making innovation everyone's business with Allister Spencer
Innovation has as many definitions as the number of people you ask to define it. Regardless of what you think of as "innovative," the execution needs to permeate the business. Abhijat Saraswat speaks with Allister Spencer on how to make innovation everyone's business.
In this episode, we’ll go over:
- Review the state of the union
- earlier this year firms put their hand brakes on; some thrived, some fell apart. What drove this?
- What were the differences between segments (law firm sizes, law firms vs. in-house legal, etc.)?
- General hygiene across the profession
- How firms can improve their operational excellence so they can
- make clients stickier
- get more clients
- Increasing profits
- How do we establish a baseline
- discovery
- benchmark
- improvement
- How firms can improve their operational excellence so they can
- How Alt-V approaches the above
- legal meth lab
- Taylor Wessing workshop
Quotes have been extracted from the live conversation and have been edited for grammar and minor corrections. What follows is a commentary based on the discussion from the episode.
Handbrake
Earlier this year, the handbrake was pulled hard, and we saw a massive slow down across both legal and in-house counsel:
Interestingly though the in-house counsel have certainly managed to achieve a little more gains in that space during the 2020 pandemic. But we have noticed that the thawing out of law firms, particularly in APAC… ramping back up. We're also seeing markets across EMEA rapidly getting back to normal. And I think that, given the number of months that have passed, just keeping the lights on for the first few months was absolutely critical. Businesses now realize that the programs that they had put on hold have to come back online, and things need to restart - the work must march on.
Factors affecting the adaptability
Smaller firms with multi-jurisdictional teams fared better because they were better geared up to working remotely, as, in effect, many were already had a remote workforce.
Many of the mid-tied single office firms, or those with a dated view that ‘bums on seats equals productivity,’ struggled to adjust quickly.
Some of the bigger firms that are spread jurisdictionally also had issues. Several factors contributed to this, and one of those was the rapid lateral hiring approach. This resulted in the firms having disparate systems, and when you bring everything back together, those systems sometimes don’t talk to each other.
How did the law firms compare to in-house legal?
Allister: I always equate a law firm with the profit center and in-house as the cost center. So, they're two very different, strategic alignments as to what makes money and what costs money. And in-house generally run on the smell of an oily rag. Whereas, law firms are very profitable. But, what we found is that given the opportunity they had, they [in-house] cracked on and because they had the structure and governance from the top they were less disrupted.
Ab: That's important and one of my thesis is that the in-house teams, because they are a cost center, naturally work to streamline their processes and systems first, rather than just throw people at the problem as often happens within a law firm. And therefore you do reap the rewards when the resources for everybody else become tighter. It then becomes a more equal playing field.What are the next priorities?
There’s a big push for ERP systems (document management, practice management, Exchange, and other basic systems that firms rely on so heavily) - some firms that have fallen behind are now rapidly coming back on board. However, it’s a cautionary tale:
They’re big-ticket items - they're very expensive processes and implementations. That more firms have to understand that this is a 10-year project, and if you do it incorrectly, it's a 10-year mistake that is very hard to wind back if it's done incorrectly.The most common foible is taking an assumption-based implementation approach. Each firm has specific requirements, and without teasing those requirements out effectively, you're not going to get them the system they want.
The business of law
Ab: if you look at the law firm as a business, and you're focused on becoming operationally excellent - you're really only trying to achieve only two things:(1) How do you retain the clients you have today (how do you make them stickier); and, (2) how do you get new revenue (how do you attract more clients?) It is literally just those two things. Everything else just feeds into that.
Allister: Yeah, that's right. I'd probably add one more of that and that's the (3) leverage model (actually being more profitable)...So once you've nailed the process and the people within that process, you can leverage down and make it far more profitable? And we work closely with firms, but also with their clients to actually engage in our labs that.
It's slightly controversial and you'll find that the lawyers get quite squirmy when they think of their clients in a lab context with them, showing inefficiencies that they are producing… this is the point to both sides.
What you're trying to do is improve the service delivery of that piece of work to the client, but also hopefully make it more efficient. Hopefully make it more profitable for the firm, but cheaper for the client. So it's a proper win-win To achieve this, you need a mindset of future state thinking - those individuals that understand that what may have been working for the last 10, 20, 50, or 100 years may not work the same in the future because there is a changing tide coming and it’ll be disruptive. And the funny thing about disruption is it hits you in the face; as soon as you turn the corner, you don't get a warning.
Operational excellence
This feeds into running a successful law firm - from a reporting perspective, you have operational excellence and strategic excellence. One can think of one as the dashboard and the other as the table - you have to marry those two up.
Firms, with all the best intentions, often miss the mark because they fall to the exclusion of the inclusion, i.e., they focus on improving things that happened, but not to convert those opportunities that may have slipped through the cracks.
The rhetoric from our perspective is what's above the line and what's below the line. You've got operational costs below the line that you can't control, but you've got leverage model objects out there that are the leavers that you can pull, and you've got to bring senior stakeholders on board and educate them on what leavers they can pull, and what effect that has on their practice group for the entire business.
It's a really important one because you're essentially converting a partner into a business owner… getting them across the line is a difficult one because they don't really want to understand the operations of the business. They just want to do legal work because that's what they've done for 20 years. So bringing them on that journey and engaging with them on ‘yes, you can make 30% profit by doing what you're currently doing, but do you want to make 40%, here's the way you can do it’. So it's a carrot rather than a stick.A holistic approach
The purist approach of following just one methodology (e.g., we’ll be an Agile shop) works in certain industries but rarely works in a law firm context. Instead, using multiple methods to tackle different problems is a better approach.
The Alt-V formed Legal Methlab to tackle this approach:
Legal meth-lab was spawned from was our ability to have a toolkit to interpret and solicit information from a business in a very empathetic way that engages all manner of the firm. It's surprising what you find, in a particular practice group, a secretary over there that just knows exactly what's going on, but previously wouldn't have been consulted, that can improve the workload for that practice group exponentially, based on correct solicitation methodologies.Join 600+ people and sign up for the Fringe Legal newsletter. You’ll receive one email each week with 3-5 interesting things from books, podcasts, and commentary. SIGN UP FOR FREE.
If deployed correctly, then the approach is welcomed with open arms by lawyers and other legal professionals:
We want these methodologies to be systemic within the law firm. They're not held in an ivory tower of wizards in innovation hubs and not pushed outside of the business because it's too scary and lawyers won't get it. The lawyers do get it and lawyers, embrace it. if it's dealt with properly. And with a large dose of empathy around inclusionary problem solving and lateral problem solving, they embrace it with open arms. The Altruistic Ventures team is putting the above into practice as part of a Design Lab for Taylor Wessing, which the firm uses to discover new ways to advise and support their clients.
During is journey, 40 innovators (from the law firm and their clients) will take part in a fully remote experience which seeks to embed a culture of innovation in law firms, giving all roles across the business access to skills and tools which can be used in daily legal service delivery and making innovation everyone’s business.
About Allister
Allister Spencer is the Director and co-founder of Altruistic Ventures - a boutique management consultancy providing specialized services to law firms and in-house legal teams globally
Allister has over 20 years of senior management experience, having worked within technology services teams for law firms, for legal technology vendors, and most recently as a director of multiple legal consultancies. His expertise spans technology strategy and business change advice for firms experiencing great change.
On this episode of Fringe Legal Edge – host Abhijat Saraswat speaks with six outstanding women.
There are each uniquely impressive, but all have one thing in common. They met (as well as 14 others) through a Linkedin networking group at the beginning of the pandemic. This one act led to the writing of an anthology of their struggles, experiments, and triumphs.
Ab speaks with Winter Wheeler, Shari E. Belitz, Esq., Lisa Lang, Laura M. Gregory, Esq., Deb Feder, and Christon Halkiotis.
Their stories are endearing; they show authenticity, talk about insecurities, confidence, and about what can happen when you show up.
Here is a peek into their stories:
Takeaway 1: How Shari E. Belitz, Esq. shed the label of ‘side hustle’ and became “founder and CEO… No side. Lots of hustle.”
Takeaway 2: How Laura M. Gregory, Esq., CPCU made insurance coverage interesting to the masses and grew her following from 1k to 6k in just six months! LauraHasItCovered
Takeaway 3: How Christon Halkiotis lesson about riding a motorcycle through curves in a road (acceleration helps give you the traction necessary for a change) would apply equally to her move from a prosecutor to a private defense attorney.
Takeaway 4: How Winter Wheeler struggled with going for her passion career (“my goal was right on the horizon, I was crippled by the notion that because I had worked so hard for my litigation career”) until she had no choice. And, how she found success through a careful and planned approach (even when sometimes didn’t know how!)
Takeaway 5: How Deb Feder created the same kitchen table environment in a virtual world, the same kind of environment she had seen her parents create to bring communities together. Also, her recipe for corn dip sounds delicious!
Takeaway 6: How Lisa Lang overcame her fear of networking (“I remember my first post—not the content, but the feeling I had when I hit the “post” button. It was sheer panic. I immediately logged out of LinkedIn.”) in three months to go from lurker to contributor to creator.
You can find #Networked: How 20 Women Lawyers Overcame the Confines of COVID-19 Social Distancing to Create Connections, Cultivate Community, & Build Businesses in the Midst of a Global Pandemic on Amazon
Chatter is a special episode where Abhijat sits down with Vincent Michetti to discuss 3-5 varied topics. In this episode they discuss:
- Deloitte buys Kemp Little: Deloitte UK has bought the law firm Kemp Litte, which adds 86 lawyers (inc. 29 partners) to the legal roster for the company. We've been through this before, throughout the 1990s the Big Five accounting firms (as they were at the time)—Arthur Andersen, KPMG, Ernst & Young (EY), PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), and Deloitte—made a concerted effort to enter the legal services market. It was relatively successful but was shut down following a wave of accounting scandals that saw the fall of Arthur Andersen, and new regulation introduced that restricted the ability of the Big 4 to offer non-auditing services to audit clients.
- ILTA Tech Survey: the annual ILTA tech survey was published recently, which collected responses from 470 firms, 103k+ lawyers, and 208k+ users. Overall, there was a much higher focus on the Cloud ( lots of o365, exchange online, cloud with next upgrade), distributed workplaces (how will firms' IT teams support home offices), and change management continues to be the top of mind issue.
- How to Stop Phishing: we talked around this Reddit post which discussed a simple change that reduced a simple hack that reduced the number of people that fell for a phishing count to zero.
Ab: Hello everyone. And welcome to this experimental episode. And this episode will be using machine learning too. read out one of the articles I've written in the past. Probably will be getting a few of these in the coming months. So please do let me know what your thoughts are and excuse any mispronunciations from the ai you can find the full text of the article on fringe legal.com and as always love to hear your feedback. Enjoy.
AI narrator 1: This is the audio version of an article, read by your friendly neighborhood artificial intelligence.
AI narrator 2: Solving the Last Mile Problem for the Utilisation of Legal Technology
The last mile is a concept that specifically focuses on the movement of goods or services from the distribution centre to the destination – this final aspect of the supply chain is often the most difficult and expensive than any other part of the supply chain.
This article considers the last mile problem framed as the utilisation of technology at law firms, and how solving it could provide significant business benefits.
The Multi-faceted Approach of Considering the Last Mile Problem
The idea of the last mile was originally conceptualised around the delivery of telecommunications and electricity; since then it has been extended to many other verticals, and is commonly referenced with regards to logistics and transportation.
The question we consider here is what is the last mile affecting the legal profession, and how should we start to solve it?
The last mile is partly a matter of perspective – when considering the legal eco-system the problem to be solved depends on which part of the legal supply chain is considered – the delivery of legal service, the utilisation of technology, or one of the many other end points.
The Promise of Significant Business Gains
Regardless of which part of the value chain is considered from the perspective of a legal technology leader, the mandate should be to help the lawyer (the end user) finish their work quickly and with a high degree of competency.
In this article we will demonstrate the value of solving the challenge of the last mile problem by focusing primarily on the utilisation of technology at law firms. My hope is that in working through this a mental framework can be constructed which can also be applied to other forums.
Below we will define the problem, consider the benefits, and review some considerations for IT leaders and knowledge professionals.
Delivery and Utilisation of Legal Technology
There has been a boom in the number of technologies being offered to and implemented within law firms. This is particularly the case in large legal markets such as the USA and the UK. The same observation can be made of emerging legal tech markets such as Singapore, where initiatives promoted by the government and other agencies are ensuring a healthy appetite for law firms to obtain legal technology.
Law firms are complex businesses with many moving parts, but they all want the same thing: to realise the full potential of their investment. For this to be accomplished there must be a smooth delivery from end-to-end. This is done by maximising the bandwidth so that workflows can be created that put the right tools in the user’s hands at the right time, and in the right way.
Often the last mile is the least efficient part of the delivery process. When implementing technology this is often translated as complexities with implementation itself, troubleshooting and training to maximise adoption.
Most firms have a fragmented eco-system of legal technology. The annual publication by Litera Microsystems – The Changing Lawyer – reported that almost half of firms are working with over 10 legal technology suppliers, and 68 per cent of firms say that their tech tools overlap in functionality.
The problem with this approach is that the users are perpetually confused by which technology to use, and there is a dizzying array of training that must be attended and remembered each time a simple task needs to be accomplished. In solving these issues, we must work towards a simplified system which encompasses a large workflow that is frequently followed by lawyers.
Benefits
Before considering how to solve the problem, let’s consider the benefits of doing so.
If we return to our earlier example of transportation, it is easy to see the business paybacks to be gained by solving the problem.
In the last five years, within the transportation vertical, companies such as Bird, and Lime have become some of the fastest growing – Bird became the fastest Unicorn in the US (company valued at over one billion USD) – by focusing on solving the last mile problem through the use of scooters. In doing so, the company considers what is the easiest and the most cost effective way of getting an individual across that last mile: from the hub (eg a train station) to their home.
Solving for the last mile with regards to delivery of technology means saving time and effort. For lawyers the result is to have more time available to think and, to provide greater value to their clients. This has the secondary benefit of minimising the mundane, inevitably increasing morale and job satisfaction.
For a business, the benefits include reducing errors in delivery of the work product, having the ability to service more clients, and generally increasing revenue.
What must be considered is that most customers expect quick delivery but are not willing to pay the high premiums. Therefore, to accomplish the task productivity tools for a lawyer that improve workflow, efficiency is needed.
Better Technology and More Integration
When thinking about how to achieve said benefits, it may be tempting to opt for even more technology. However, I would argue that this is not the right approach – as it further fragments an already fragmented eco-system. Instead firms should aim for better technology, more conversations, elegant delivery mechanisms, and more integration.
Systems that are put in place should provide an integrated approach to the workflow – this means integrating with relevant systems (for example, a Document Management System (DMS)) so that as many of the necessary actions can be accomplished from within the application where the lawyer spends most of their time (such as Microsoft Word).
Is Your System Being Used as Intended?
If we consider this from the perspective of an IT leader or the business unit, it is important to pay attention during the implementation stage to ensure that the delivery being received is as intended.
Are your users able to go through workflows (eg creating, checking, and collaborating on a document) in a cohesive manner without significant cognitive burden?
Companies like Litera Microsystems have formed around this specific narrative and as a result their suite – the Litera Desktop – can be delivered as a single, lawyer focused ribbon. The advantage of this is that it provides all the necessary tools for the entire workflow which all look and feel the same, allowing the lawyer to focus on the task at hand instead of jumping from tab-to-tab and ribbon-to-ribbon.
Integrating – In and Out
As you consider the workflow, where possible, ensure that there are multiple points of integration. Beyond those that are essential, like a DMS for instance, it is worth considering whether the systems are able to integrate with each other ie, is your content library able to draw results from an AI driven document review tool? Do your tools offer APIs to allow the technical professionals to design their own workflows?
Efficiency Across the Entire Business
As the head of a firm, or practice, the focus should be on understanding how the technology is being used across the firm, and/or practice. The return on investment (ROI) can be increased by identifying where technology can be better leveraged to provide greater value to your clients.
This could well be accomplished using simple technologies such as those that help with reviewing documents for drafting issues. Having consistency around this process could mean more efficiency, and ensuring that every document finalised meets a minimum quality threshold across the firm, thereby resulting in fewer mistakes being picked up by clients.
Final Thoughts
Ultimately, there is no silver bullet. Firms and individuals can start seeing real effect by considering simple items which may be overlooked as being too obvious.
As a starting point, it is suggested that you consider if implementation of simple systems such as automating your drafting review process which are quick to value, can provide efficiencies freeing up lawyers and IT professionals to consider a broader strategy and to focus on what really matters.
Whatever your approach, aim to simplify the offering and ensure that there are real user and business benefits. Understand how multiple actions that affect one overarching workflow can be tied together to create better results to truly change the game.
This article was authored by Abhijat Saraswat and first published on the Singapore Law Gazette: https://lawgazette.com.sg/practice/tech-talk/solving-the-last-mile-problem-for-the-utilisation-of-legal-technology/
Eric Laughlin is the CEO of Agiloft - the no-code contract and commerce lifecycle management software company.
I think, as everything changed, people had to have had sort of two insights: one insight is that the world changes more rapidly than I even thought that it could. And then the second thing is, I, as an individual, as a human, was able to adapt more quickly than I thought that I might've been able to.
And that sort of plasticity that we discovered in the world and in ourselves, I hope has allowed everybody to, think of a sort of positive outcome from this pandemic, which is, it allows people to be more, imaginative about what the future might look like. and that should have implications for the way that we work.
And for the way that we have our family life and our personal lives, but it certainly has implications for the way that we think about technology. What technology we choose, what we think that technology does, how long we think we'll use that technology and, the rigidity or sort of plasticity that we expect from the technology.In this episode you'll learn about:
- What is contract lifecycle management?
- The benefits of no-code technology - from an implementation, design, and adoption perspective
- From the legal ops perspective why you should consider all software instead of just legal tech solutions
- What Agiloft plans to do with their $45M investment
- Eric’s experience as a new CEO - his onboarding experience and his leadership focus for the next few months
SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW: iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher
If you're sitting in a law firm or if you're sitting in legal ops, you might be thinking, what are my legal tech options?
you certainly should be thinking: what are my technology options, not what are my legal tech options. And especially in something like contracts, where, there are many people outside of legal department who have their hands in contracts every day, whether it's the procurement department or it's sales operations, those are either your partners in the law firm, or they're working in parallel with you on different contracts.You can find Eric on LinkedIn and find out more about Agiloft here.
Agiloft Secures $45 Million Growth Equity Investment from FTV Capital
Names Accomplished Legal Tech Executive Eric Laughlin as CEO to Accelerate Growth in No-Code Contract and Commerce Lifecycle Management Software Company
Redwood City, Calif., August 17, 2020 – Agiloft, the global standard in no-code contract and commerce lifecycle management, today announced a $45 million growth equity investment from FTV Capital, a sector-focused investor in innovative companies in enterprise technology and services, financial services, and payments and transaction processing. Bootstrapped since its inception and profitable, Agiloft’s investment from FTV is the company’s first round of external funding and will be used to build on its leadership position in the rapidly growing enterprise contract and commerce lifecycle management (CCLM) space as it accelerates its AI-based product development and expands its vertical and geographic market presence. Agiloft’s no-code platform drives industry-leading configurability and automates complex enterprise workflows through an iterative design process at a fraction of the time and cost of traditional software.
In conjunction with the transaction, Agiloft appointed Eric Laughlin to the role of CEO, effective immediately. Laughlin most recently served as global leader of legal managed services at Ernst & Young, LLP, where he managed the Pangea3 and Riverview Law teams and provided clients with technology and service solutions in the contracts, e-discovery, and compliance domains globally. Founder and former CEO of Agiloft, Colin Earl, will remain with the company as chief technology officer, overseeing product development, engineering, security and technology infrastructure and providing strategic guidance to the company.
“Colin and his team at Agiloft have built a unique company, emphasizing customer-focused execution and a culture of trust and transparency — all built on a foundation of technical excellence,” said Laughlin. “The result has been steadily accelerating growth and consistent profitability. I’m honored to have been chosen to lead Agiloft in the next chapter of its development. A big part of my role will be to grow the company while maintaining the elements that have made it so successful.”
"Eric not only has a track record of success, growing and leading large global organizations, he has the vision, domain expertise and integrity to lead Agiloft in its next phase of growth and product innovation. The search took over a year–and it was well worth it to find the right individual.” said Earl.
Named a leader by Gartner in its 2020 Magic Quadrant for Contract Lifecycle Management, Agiloft has reported 134% growth in new sales thus far this year, an implementation success rate of 99.6% and has a loyal customer base of more than 600 customers, including Honeywell, CDW and Roche. Its adaptable contracting software is built on a no-code platform, allowing organizations to customize complex contract and commerce workflows without writing a single line of code. A robust AI engine simplifies the intake and organization of existing contracts and also identifies the level of risk in documents and clauses. The result is cost discipline in procurement, quantifiable reductions in revenue leakage in sales, and visibility into contractual risk and regulatory compliance for legal departments. The platform is easily extensible to the commercial processes adjacent to contracts such as spend management and integrates with enterprise systems.
“Agiloft has established itself as a trailblazer in the fast-growing market for contract and commerce lifecycle management software,” said Alex Mason, partner at FTV Capital. “To develop a no-code product that customers love, while prioritizing profitable growth without external investment, is a remarkable achievement. We are proud to be a collaborative partner to the Agiloft team and look forward the exciting journey ahead.”
“With digital transformation moving at the speed it is today, contract management solutions that are well-scoped and executable are mission critical,” said Abhay Puskoor, principal at FTV Capital. “As businesses continue to find new efficiencies and ways to reduce costs, contract management will play a significant role in adoption of automation, and Agiloft’s highly configurable no-code platform will enable automation at a fraction of the time and cost of traditional software. We welcome the opportunity to connect Agiloft to the enterprises in our Global Partner Network who will value the measurable ROI that the platform delivers.”
As part of this transaction, FTV Capital’s Alex Mason and Abhay Puskoor will join Agiloft’s board of directors.
About Eric
Agiloft CEO, Eric Laughlin, has over a decade of leadership experience running legal software and tech-enabled services business serving Fortune 1000 clients. Prior to Agiloft, Eric was the global leader of Legal Managed Services at Ernst & Young, LLP. His organization, including the Pangea3 and Riverview Law teams, provided EY clients with technology and service solutions in the contracts, e-discovery, and compliance domains globally. Before EY, he was managing director of the Corporate Segment within Thomson Reuters, responsible for information, software, and service offerings for corporate legal departments. His career at Thompson Reuters included posts as general manager for Serengeti (e-billing & matter management software), consultant in the Global Strategy function, and marketing leadership roles. Eric earlier worked in marketing at 3M, and sales & business development at About.com. He began his career as a consultant for the Parthenon Group. Eric has an MBA from the Kellogg School at Northwestern University and a bachelor’s degree from Duke University. He lives in the Seattle area, and is an avid runner and skier.
About Agiloft
As the global leader in contract and commerce lifecycle management (CCLM) software, Agiloft is trusted to provide significant savings in purchasing, enable more efficient legal operations, and accelerate sales cycles, all while drastically lowering compliance risk. Founded in 1991, Agiloft’s adaptable no-code platform ensures rapid deployment and a fully extensible system. Using contracts as the core system of commercial record, Agiloft’s CCLM software leverages AI to improve contract management for legal departments, procurement, and sales operations. Visit www.agiloft.com for more.
About FTV Capital
FTV Capital is a growth equity investment firm that has raised nearly $4 billion to invest in high-growth companies offering a range of innovative solutions in three sectors: enterprise technology and services, financial services, and payments and transaction processing. FTV’s experienced team leverages its domain expertise and proven track record in each of these sectors to help motivated management teams accelerate growth. FTV also provides companies with access to its Global Partner Network®, a group of the world’s leading enterprises and executives who have helped FTV portfolio companies for two decades. Founded in 1998, FTV Capital has invested in 115 portfolio companies, including Docupace, Egress, Enfusion, InvestCloud, ReliaQuest, Riskalyze, Sunlight Financial, and VPay, and exited companies Globant (NYSE IPO), HCS (acquired by Ally Financial), and WorldFirst (acquired by Ant Financial). FTV has offices in San Francisco and New York. For more information, please visit www.ftvcapital.com.
Ray Biederman is an experienced litigator with nearly two decades of experience removing obscurity from the eDiscovery process for other attorneys and corporate resources. Ray is the President and co-founder of DiscoveryMaster.co, CEO of Proteus Discovery Group, and Partner at Mattingly Burke Cohen & Biederman LLP.
most people went to law school to practice law and not to practice technology, or practice updating Excel spreadsheets all the time. It's like the rule of 80% rule, right? You cover 80% of what the needs are, and then the other 20%, either custom build or figure out a workaround for it. As litigators, we're working in a pretty fast-paced environment, and that 20% is critical. So you don't want to make a move until you've got everything covered or you don't have to change your processes that much.And that was part of the beauty of what we've done; people don't really have to change their practices all that much, it unifies everything into one place and they get the information they need, but they don't have to learn a new piece of software in order to do it.
In this episode we discuss:
- Technology adoption and innovation: the difference in enthusiasm & sophistication between in-house legal teams and AM Law 200 firms
- Cloud: the dichotomy between legal tech ecosystem moving to the cloud, and requirements by IT teams to keep things on-prem for security reasons
- In-house/outside counsel: the dynamics of this relationship and how the bleed from consumer tech into the professional world is affecting it.
the law lives in the past a little bit and so trying to add new tech or add tech stacks to the legal profession is an exceedingly difficult road. What we've noticed is, at least lately, we launched at the beginning of COVID, and I think that instantly brought in-house teams in the cost-saving mode as fast as possible.
You can learn more about DiscoveryMaster here, and connect with Ray on LinkedIn.
Adrian Camara is the CEO of Athennian. Athennian is a legal entity management software for in-house teams and law firms.
This is a replay from the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit held earlier this year.
This panel brings together four leading knowledge managers and innovators to discuss some of the projects they have started or have seen sprouted in crisis situations.
The panel will bring together a world view as we'll be joined by Thao and Priti is the US (New York and Chicago respectively), Barbara in Brazil, and Terri in Australia.
On the panel were: Priti Saraswat, Bárbara Gondim da Rocha, Terri Mottershead, and Thao Tran
This was recorded as a video and you can watch the video version at https://summit.fringelegal.com/talks/km-viewpoint-from-practitioner-to-enabler/
Ab and Vincent sit down for the first of the monthly “chatter” segments on Fringe Legal during which they discuss the Epic vs. Apple/Google saga, California vs. Uber and Lyft, and the upcoming Microsoft Surface Duo device.
You can watch the video version of the recording here: https://www.fringelegal.com/august-chatter-with-vincent-michetti/
You can Vincent Michetti on LinkedIn.
Mick Sheehy joined PwC as a partner in October 2018 to build and run PwC’s Australian NewLaw practice, focussed on providing strategic consulting, technology, and outsourcing solutions to legal departments.
Mick is a recognized international leader in the field of legal innovation and transformation, having won numerous international legal innovation awards and with his work the subject of a case study for Harvard Law School.
Mick founded and chaired the Corporate Legal Operations Consortium Australia, an industry body established to share best practice legal operations and innovation knowledge. Mick is a director of Fitzroy Legal Service, a member of the advisory board to Swinburne University Law School, has an extensive commercial and M&A background, and before PwC spent 14 years at Telstra where he was General Counsel.
I felt that all the other departments were so adept at using numbers and metrics, in particular, to go and fight for internal funding. Whereas the legal department is hopeless at it. In fact, we weren't even part of the conversation. So I really felt that there was a real problem here that we needed to solve.
In the episode today we'll talk through:
- The research project completed by PwC NewLaw team to identify key decisions that legal departments make every day
- Three waves of legal operations
- Vendor management: manage panels and understand where the money is being spent
- Productivity: how we manage our workflows, and getting the high volume but simpler processes done better
- Insights: this is where we are moving to, and provides a way to get us to look at data and focus on measurement
Most of the things that we've done have been done by either other legal departments, a lot of professions, and we should be trying to learn from them, bringing those insights to help make our transformation journey as fast.* Deciding what to measure and then what data to capture * Why often legal departments aren't even part of the conversation around spend and business measurements. How measurement drives internal funding and support, and how to set baselines (even if you're the first/only one doing something) * A deep dive into three functional examples - what to measure, how and why: + Business strategy + Technology & innovation + Knowledge management * The importance of data-driven decision making
The thing is when you invest in transformation and change, what is critical is to be able to measure the change.
There's no point in changing something if you don't understand your baseline. Whereas I think that perhaps again, a lot of our real initiatives were done without baselines. If you're going to ask for more funding to support a legal operations function or to invest in new technology, you need to very clearly understand your baseline and then be able to measure, in quantifiable terms, what that change is. Whether it be productivity benefits, whether it be turnaround times, whether it be providing new material insight to your business, these things are capable of being measured. If they aren't measured, you'll never attract that internal investment to support these initiatives. So that is the reason why this has to happen. Without it, the internal funding and support will just dry up. You can find out more about the report and download the PDF here.
You can find Mick on PwC's website or on LinkedIn
Andrea is a visionary leader with a passion for combining digitalisation with human potential. She has 20+ years of experience in the legal business both as a transactional lawyer and as a leader for various business areas (marketing, business development, innovation, and legal tech).
If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to the Fringe Legal Newsletter to get 3-5 interesting ideas delivered every Sunday. Join 530+ people. It's free. Join at www.fringelegal.com/newsletter
- Summary
- Why every legal professional needs to know about digital transformation
- What does Innovation mean to Andrea
- many people mix up innovation with the change, or they mix up innovation with creativity and creativity is certainly necessary for innovation, but it's not enough. It's not the same... Many innovation projects include changing behaviors, adopting new working methods, adopting technology, but change is not equal to innovation... innovation and entrepreneurship is a key success factor for every single company, every single business, also for the legal, it's important that it creates value. It has an economic, positive impact
- In reality, innovation is hard work. It's a very structured and focused process. You know the words 'fail fast', so you monitor the process and stop it. You have to create value. You have to have an innovation strategy that is aligned with the overall business strategy. So it is a science and it is something which is a serious and very impactful part of business management.
- How to create a culture supporting innovation and transformation
- What's the impact of Covid-19 on innovation strategy, and how it will lead to the great unmasking of the "innovation theatre"
- Some people say that in the next 10 years, the amount of change will be equal to the previous hundred years. And, that's why I say that in the short term, you might have to state safe as a business; in the midterm, you will have to stay hungry; and, in the long term, you have to stay foolish.
- For those moonshots or long term ideas, you need an innovation strategy. Research shows that in corporate innovation if you have a reactive approach and you just wait for people, you encourage them and incentivize them, but you wait that they come up with ideas most of the ideas will be incremental changes, mostly process changes. I would say that's nice - valuable. But more importantly, these days especially is to have a strategic view and formulate to people the direction we would like to get new ideas on, or which are the problems that are a priority for our firm.
- Using gamification to drive technology adoption, and how Andrea used this successfully at her previous firm
- Connecting pieces of the legal supply chain - what is the connection between strategy, innovation, technology and business development.
Find Andrea on LinkedIn and Twitter.
Alma is an Evangelist at Litera. Alma is a legal technology expert and trusted advisor to Litera clients, helping them to bring innovative ways of thinking and practice to life. Previously, Alma was the Chief Innovation Officer, Legal Solutions, at Integreon Discovery Solutions. Alma joined Integreon as part of its acquisition of her litigation management software business, Allegory, where she was Founder and CEO.
Alma has been researching the prevalence of knowledge management and innovation roles across the Am Law 200 firms.
In this episode:
- we go through her findings which were frankly shocking to the both of us
- we look at firms that are doing well in functionally and practically serving the KM and Innovation function
- what's missing, the myth of km and innovation being widespread across the profession
- the cost of not having these roles filled at your firm
- how Alma plans to use the information
This episode is presented a little differently. Alma and I were having such a great conversation that I just hit record. So we'll start mid-flow and the conversation should feel raw but full of useful insights.
Just one more thing, if you haven't head over to FringeLegal.com and subscribe to our free weekly newsletter. I share 3-5 interesting finds each week as well as bonus content, such as episode transcripts and more. Over 500 people receive it each week, come join us.
You can find Alma on LinkedIn and Twitter.
This is an audio version of the talk Ben gave as part of the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit 2020. You can watch the video version here: https://summit.fringelegal.com/talks/ben-white-results-of-over-200-in-house-counsel-interview/
Mike Whelan, Jr.
We think we understand the complexity of the supply chain, but that complexity in a weird way, feeds efficiency, cost control, and quality in a way that we just wouldn't expect. We think we're all artisans. And of course, in a big firm, [and] in law school, we're taught to be sort of artisanal.Mike has worked in logistics, solo law practice, and legal media. He teaches about the overlaps between those activities and what they mean for attorneys and the companies that aim to serve them.
Through his speaking, consulting, and writing, Mike aims to improve the lives of solo attorneys. The legal industry has many well-documented struggles. If we can harness the minds and compassion of solos—roughly half of the profession—we can have real impact on an array of social issues, including access to justice. That is Mike’s mission.
Mike lives with his wife, four children, dog, two geckos, four cats, two birds, and hedgehog in the Kansas City area. (He needs a nap). Mike is also the host of the Lawyer Forward Podcast.
Since people think of the supply chain as a chain, I would just say that a law firm can operate that way. And that's how I talk about it.
You know, there are handoffs, you collaborate with people outside of the firm. Somebody's overseeing it, which I think is fundamental to this thing working, but in my dream world, there's not just Bobby gives/does a project, gives it to Sally who does a piece who gives it to Bobby. In my dream world, there are feedback loops of information inside these communities.
So in big firms, they refer to this knowledge management, which different firms are better and worse at it. But, but that is a feedback loop. That is the big firms saying we can get smarter as a firm by capturing these things that we keep using. And our knowledge can grow exponentially as we work together with each other.
We're not just relying on the individual being really smart and individual silos, which is how a lot of big firms work because they're so specialized, but we can say what's the power of the network. And they're really smart. Big firms are figuring out how to do that.In this episode you'll learn about:
- Mike’s journey from logistics to law to being an author
- The importance of systems-level thinking in the legal profession
- Why law schools need to re-evaluate how to teach and prepare students for the practice and business of law
- What is the legal supply chain and why it’s important to understand
- Background to the Churn model created in law
SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW: iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher
It is just impossible to be available all the time and still do the work of expertise. And in our really complex, modern legal system. Clients expect both of those. They expect you to be a super nerd about the exact thing that they're dealing with because they saw that on TV.
And then they expect you to be incredibly responsive and there for them all the time because that's what Amazon taught them.You can get a copy of Mike’s book - Lawyer Forward on Amazon. Find out more about Mike on his website, and connect with him on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Dr. Allan McCay has a PhD in Law (University of Sydney), is an admitted solicitor in Scotland, Hong Kong, New South Wales, and Tasmania (Australia). He is an author of several books, and teaches at the University of Sydney Foundation Program and will again be lecturing in Criminal Law at the University of Sydney Law School in semester 2, 2020.
And so, on that view, it seems like the human consciousness doesn't seem to add much because ultimately human decision making is algorithmic and as these algorithmic machines are getting better and better they will surpass us. And, there are dire implications for the future work.
As I was reading that, I kept from thinking, well if David Hodgson's view is right then that's not, that's not true. So if David Hodgson's view is right then there is some kind of advantage in the workplace from being a conscious human and the certain kinds of humans can, engage in a certain kind of judgment, when they make decisions that are not open to a non-conscious algorithmic machine.
So in a nutshell: consciousness provides a facility for judgment in the past, have probably had an evolutionary advantage, that is lacking in algorithmic non-conscious machines. According to my paper, which uses David Hodgkin's views this may be economically advantageous to us because using this judgment that we have as a result being conscious may provide an advantage in the workplace.In this episode you'll learn about:
- Allan’s interest in neuroscience, ethics and the law
- What advantage humans may or may not have over artificial intelligent agents in the workplace of the future
- Impact of neuroscientific evidence in sentencing. Could the presence of certain protein markers (e.g, MAOA) lead to a plea for mitigation in sentencing?
- What is the Australian Neurolaw Database
- What are brain-computer interfaces (BCI)
- The possibility of people committing offenses by way of BCI
- We talk through some hypotheticals - how BCI offenses challenge the core of criminal law
- How might human consciousness impact the future of work, against the future of algorithmic machines that will soon surpass us in decision making
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The question of what, advantages humans may or may not have over Artificially intelligent agents in the workplace of the future.You can find out more about Allan on his website. Connect with him on LinkedIn, and Twitter.
You can explore Allan’s books below:
- Free Will and the Law
- Neurointerventions and the Law
Chrissie Wolfe is a solicitor in Irwin Mitchell's international personal injury team, specializing in claims arising outside of England and Wales. She also runs the YouTube channel, Law and Broader.
In this episode you'll learn about:
- Chrissie’s interesting path to law, including homeschooling
- Going from bad A-levels, pivoting from studying biology to law
- How Chrissie saw a need for content to be delivered in a specific way (YouTube/video) and just dove right in. The thought process behind it, and how she was able to grow her channel to over 3k subscribers
- Skills important now and those that may need to be honed by future lawyers
- The link between lawtech and client retention
- Finding a balance between work and other interest
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You can find Chrissie on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and on her YouTube channel, Law and Broader.
It's really important to spend that initial time on the vision. The 'why are we doing it?' And, the next sort of stage for me was them saying - the technology that we were adopting was really just a tool to get us on that vision. It's not the solution, because we're the solution. Like how we use it is the solution, but here's the tool that we're going to start with for us on our vision.Then there was a lot of planning. The next thing is really being quite studious, really detail-oriented about planning, and planning some more; having a communication strategy, thinking about how you talk to different lawyers. If people email them, if you have weekly standups and, I learned quite early on, for example, that sending emails every day, just didn't cut through.
Because the lawyer never read them. So using different channels to communicate the change that's coming is very important and being quite sensitive to the audience. And that's my next point: thinking about the audience because you're going to have change champions in your audience, you're going to have people that are very reluctant and then you can have everybody in between.
We recorded this conversation in Feb 2020, and Katrina then also spoke at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit. During that session, she expanded much further into the knowledge-based way of working. It’s well worth a watch, and Katrina answers the following thesis: what do you do to capture and share the lawyers’ knowledge, both for the current team and for the future? Do you have a strategic plan to capture that knowledge and a culture aimed at making this a priority?
My caution to everybody's always, you know, think about what you're spending on the technology, but then also think about what you're spending both in terms of money and time in terms of the implementation and the adoption of that technology because the measure of success isn't the software, It's how your team adopts it and uses it. So that's where your focus should beBuild up a knowledge-based way of working, and what that really means is: the legal team's biggest asset is everything in the brains of the lawyers in the team. All the experience that they bring to their job every day. But what I think many legal teams, including ours, had not done terrifically well at in the past that I actually think, by contrast, a lot of law firms do well is capturing that knowledge.
So building a central repository so that you can share it with each other now and for the future. So we have been on a journey for this financial year to sort of build up firstly, a team culture to sort of really embed in our lawyers, the importance of anything that you learn, you share, and how you do that.In this episode you'll learn about:
- Katrina’s journey from private practice to inhouse to leading a transformation initiative
- One simply thing private practice lawyers can do to add value to their clients
- Build up a knowledge-based way of working - what it means and how to do it
- How Katrina and her team measure the success and effectiveness of internal initiatives
- Utilizing technology as a catalyst for innovation and managing the change project that comes with it
- Practical suggestions for in-house legal teams as they tackle internal projects, including if you have a large, medium, or a small team.
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So I also spent a lot of time, once we launched our system and trained our lawyers, and we started in it, going around and sitting down and saying: "what are your issues"? Give me issues. And also, what are your ideas for improving it? And I logged them all. Then as I slowly went through them all, I kept closing the loop either directly with the lawyer or with the team.And I'd say, I fixed this problem now, or I've let everybody know we're making this change to our system because so-and-so saw that this was a great idea or gapping the technology that we had. Where that gets you to is I think somewhere where the team actually owns the technology and they really are thinking about it's theirs.
How do they continue to maximize it? It's got a very open dialogue about continuous improvement. Everybody knows that it's never going to be a hundred percent perfect, technology never is, but everybody's got a very, forward-looking approach to how we're gonna use it. And, keeping on, that continuous improvement cycle.
Connect with Katrina on LinkedIn.
In legal, to me, it will be about the challenger law firms... just have to flip a few things upside down. And, introduce a disruptive new model of doing business in this space. And that will happen in law, and you see this already, you see this with, for example, Deloitte legal, coming out. And there are a few new-law law firms, as well that are in this space and are trying different models.We recorded this conversation in Feb 2020, and of course, the world changed dramatically since then. As an accompaniment, I would recommend watching Karina’s talk at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit, where she shares how to run successful SaaS implementation projects.
In technology, when you're building products and in any industry that you look at that has been disrupted and innovated over time, all of them share in common, failing fast and trying different things. And you know, they say only 1 in 10 disruptors or startups will work out. The other nine will fail, but you kind of need that churn, that turnover in the markets of different players trying and failing and learning from each other in order to get that 1 out of 10 that is successful. And that is true in a market, and it's also true within an individual organization where if you don't have that culture of trying failing, then it's much harder to learn from mistakes and it is much harder to finally get to a solution that works.
In this episode you'll learn about:
- Karina’s journey to becoming a chess master
- Going from chess to legal tech to reg tech to founding her own agency
- What is reg tech, and the importance of compliance
- The three pillars of KV Labs and why they matter: design, build and launch
- Importance of UI/UX in product design
- The concept of challenger law firms, and how they might disrupt the legal profession
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It's just that inevitably compliance is becoming more and more a strategic function. It's no longer just about knowing what you can and cannot do and responding to internal requests. it is just inevitable becoming more strategic because the industry is becoming more complex as well. And that's what RegTech is really about - at the end of the day, enabling that function.You can learn more about KV Labs here, and find Karina on LinkedIn and Twitter.
Sam leads business transformation projects across every division of Burness Paull. In particular, Sam helps teams within the firm to identify opportunities for automation and/or augmented workflows, making sure that Burness Paull takes full advantage of innovations in legal technology in delivering our services and delighting our clients.
There's an old saying that there are three kinds of work in the world: there's good work, there's fast work, and there's cheap work - you can pick any two you like. And I, I think, increasingly what we are trying to do with professionals is we're trying to achieve all three because clients expect us to achieve all three. And you can't necessarily do that by just doing things the same way you've always done themWe recorded this conversation in Nov 2019, and of course, the world changed dramatically since then. As an accompaniment, I would recommend watching Sam’s talk at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit, which was recorded in May 2020. It provides great juxtaposition for how his role has evolved in just a few months. And, interestingly, how many of the future skills are needed today.
Law firms are having to become more comfortable with these new roles and it's very hard to peg some of these new roles, where they sit in the typical hierarchical structure of a law firm. They don't really sit anywhere. And that's a challenge for the profession to get its head around that. You may have to be a bit more flexible about, essentially your, corporate structure to find the right place to put these important skillsets. In this episode you'll learn about:
- Sam’s path to becoming an Innovation Manager
- What does the Scottish Legal Technologist Accreditation mean
- The transition from a legal technologist to an innovation manager
- How having an in-house perspective adds tremendous value to the clients
- Skills for future lawyers
- Basic IT skills
- Understanding of data analytics (example: how it might apply to pricing)
- Better familiarity with remote working - this goes without saying now but we recorded this in November 2019, and it was great foresight. You can learn more about how Sam’s role has been impacted in the post-COVID19 world from his talk at the Fringe Legal Virtual Summit.
- Being aware of data and cybersecurity issues
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My first experience of working with the team of Burness Paull was wearing my client hat. I'm seeing how information is being sent across, seeing how project updates are being provided, and also seeing where the sticky points are in terms of routine transactions. So when I came back over to the lawyer side of the table, I could look out for the work I was doing and think, okay, I know this particular area of the project here is going to cause some difficulties.You can find Sam on LinkedIn and Twitter
when we come back to work, it's going to be really interesting how we'll be able to help support the remote worker as well as those that, want to maintain some level of tradition.
Shannon is a successful outsourced solution professional with 25 years of law firm experience. Shannon has been with Canon 21 years originally serving as the Midwest Operations Manager for 10 years where she and her service team implemented and managed some of our largest and most innovative law firm accounts. Having been a Facility & Services Manager for a national law firm prior to joining Canon, Shannon has the unique ability to understand law firm requirements from a client and provider perspective.
Documents services and the ability to move away from, print is going to be probably the largest area of opportunity. And the best use of the support structure and also, just driving efficiency and in those areas. In this episode you'll learn about:
- How long firms are planning for the return to work
- Where are some areas of change that Shannon and her colleagues are seeing
- Some practical, and low-tech approaches that firms will need to implement to make people feel comfortable as they return to work
- What are some differences between leadership in corporate vs law firms
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leadership in some of our corporate clients is really taking this opportunity to say when you come back to work, it's going to look like this rather than let's get you back to work and, let's figure it out along the way.You can find Shannon on LinkedIn
I'm not sure that AI has changed what we do more than electricity did, and somehow they [lawyers] were able to absorb that. So actually, you know, where's the gap, we always assume they can't absorb technology, but maybe they can.
Maz will also be speaking at the 2020 Fringe Legal Virtual Summit, where he will expand on many of these items. Register at www.fringelegal.com/summit
if you look at the time spent on talking about the subject versus the number of real-world effects, it's not what you'd expect.quite a lot of lawyers see that job as being artisanal. You know, they are they all skilled craftsman doing something that's too complicated for anyone else to comprehendIn this episode you'll learn about:
- The wide spectrum of innovation found within law firms and legal practices
- The ask to make complicated disciples more simple so it can be spread to different types of lawyers
- How to practically approach innovation conversation with lawyers
- How to practically approach innovation conversation with clients and in-house teams
- How to identify the intervention points that can have a significant impact on the delivery of quality work
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I find the in house legal teams are normally really conscientious. They're just desperate to do the best job that they possibly can for the business and feel a bit kind of sad because a lot of the time they can't turn things around as quickly as they want to.Or they have to say no to people. And, then you try and work out, well, what are the intervention points that are most likely going to help them achieve that.
You can find Maziar on LinkedIn and Twitter
In 2015, Torsten joined the M&A Corporate department of the international law firm of Bech-Bruun as a project coordinator. Not long afterward, Torsten got involved in the development of Bech-Bruun’s legal tech projects and, for the past few years, has been one of the driving forces behind the implementation of AI and document automation software across the organisation. In January 2019, Bech-Bruun launched its 2022 Strategy and this involved Torsten being appointed Head of Legal Tech Innovation and in charge of developing and implementing new innovative services and products in collaboration with clients and the rest of Bech-Bruun's organisation.
This is not just about selling products. This is about how can we serve the client in the best way possible. Taking their strategic direction into account, but also ours, and actually building that close collaboration around a legal tech. SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW: iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher
During the episode we discuss:
- How Torsten went from project management coordinator for the M&A team to head of legal tech innovation
- What does this specialist role of legal tech coordinator entail
- How Torsten’s role is entangled with what the CIO does as well as the head of business development
- How the firm manages a pipeline of ideas and uses this to plan against a 6, 12 and 36-month technology strategy
- Why Bech Brunn bought dot legal
- An example of a project that was on the firms’ development/idea pipeline and brought to fruition
- What are the benefits of the key accounts management program that the firms’ clients get from them
Find Torsten on Bech-Bruun, LinkedIn, and Twitter
Another aspect of the job is actually to insource, as I said, the ideas from the clients and really trying to develop the ideas both with the clients but also with the lawyers.And then we have a selection process where we actually take these ideas, cultivate them, and figure out: is it a viable product? Can we make it work? Can we put it into operation and actually sell it to the clients? Can we, conceptualize it? Can we make, revenue?. from this offering? And this is really in close collaboration with our head of business development and also our CIO.
Because I can only take part of it, and when it goes to sales and marketing and into operations, it's really important for me to have the head of business development and his team pitch in with all the knowledge they have regarding conceptualizing and also putting it into operation.
People don't love legal and, if we can help people to love the legal process, um, I think that's, that's really where it [the idea] came from.
In the episode today we cover:
- How Love Legal got their start
- How making improvements to the design can help people to love the legal process
- What are some of the considerations when thinking about the consumer point of view, especially for B2C or B2B2C businesses
- We do also specifically talk about (and speculate) on what might be the future of Will writing, estates law, and execution using instruments such as smart contracts
how online presence does affect, people's decision making. It was something like 50% of millennials care about a law firm’s website compared to 20% of boomers....if law firms are looking ahead or looking deep into the future, say 15 years, there's going to be a massive change SUBSCRIBE AND REVIEW: iTunes // Spotify // Pocket Casts // Stitcher
More information
LoveLegal.com
Seb Shakh
Caroline Ragan
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
The call for innovation is really a call for service transformation in disguise. What clients are really asking for is a different way of servicing and working with them, and that in itself is an innovation in terms of process. We kick off the third season of the podcast with the fantastic Michele DeStefano. The basis of this episode is exploring some of the ideas behind Michele's book - Legal Upheaval.
We talk about:
- What clients are asking for from lawyers
- How GCs and Corporates feel about the service being received by their lawyers
- The call for service transformation
- Change management: lawyers are not so resistant to change
- How the lawyer's skills delta has changed since its inception 18 months ago
I think if you took all of my interviews of all the in house counsel from around the world. And put them into one of those word grams. I think the words that would come out the most would be together.I think that's an important and big shift because that's hard to do, very hard to do, especially when you're working with many different clients... I would say that that is the number one, the number one thing that lawyers don't spend long enough on is asking why before jumping to solve.Find out more
MOVELΔW
Law Without Walls
Michele's on social: LinkedIn and Twitter
Michele's books: Legal Upheaval and New Suits
In 2012, Jan Roggen founded Adhemar.law, a Belgian environmental and real estate boutique law firm, recognized by clients, peers and legal 500. In 2015, he started exploring new service, delivery models. While doing so, he learned that he did not have the required business skills to effectively drive and lead innovation in the firm. So he took the leap and moved to Canada with his family to study innovation management at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario while managing the firm remotely. During his stay in Canada, he saw the Raptors win the NBA Championship and obtained additional certifications in Legal Project Management, Lean Six Sigma, Design Sprint Facilitation, and Wilderness and Remote First Aid.
Jan currently focuses on innovation and change management within the firm. In 2019, Adhemar.law was one of the 4 nominees for the 2019 Belgian Legal awards for the most innovative law firms. In addition, Jan is an expert in environmental law, expropriation law, and general public law. He advises private and public clients on the realization of infrastructure projects, area development, and other public and private industries, commercial and residential projects.
Outside of his law practice, he founded a non-profit that helps youth learn important problem-solving skills and build resilience through extracurricular activities.
It's been a special experience trying to guide a law firm through a change process remotely. We have a young law firm that's very open to change. But even when everyone's open to change, change management is very challenging and if you want to do it remotely, it's even more challenging. In the episode today, we discuss:
- The truth about change management; it’s hard even when people are open and accepting of it
- Challenges around running a law firm remotely
- How Jan’s firm created a “bottom-up” culture and instilled an environment where everyone is open to learning from each other. The most experienced lawyer learns something from the trainee and vice versa.
- Learning through experiments and having buy-in to get people to own what they do
- How knowledge management is making money for the firm, and provide a strong return on their investment to tools from companies like Litera
The main thing, which is very difficult in the legal profession, is to put your ego at the door and leave it at the door before you go in. Once you're able to do that, everything's possible. The thing for me that made it possible is that I was away - I had to stop micromanaging my own firm.
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We're trying to use everybody's talents and knowledge. Instead of making some kind of a complete lawyer of everyone we tried to divide the work. We have some lawyers who are very good, very empathetic - they love being social, the extroverts. So we put them and the client-facing position. Whereas there are other people who are really good at thinking, contemplating, and doing deep legal work - writing complex advice. So we put these two people together and let them handle one person to handle most of the clients and the other one most of the file.
Whereas in a traditional firm, you would have one person doing everything and then that one person would either not be very social, or not have a very good relationship with the clients.
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
Kim Lewis is the Legal Transformation Manager at Gilbert + Tobin.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to clients. That's what we're doing. It's delivering a service to clients so how we deliver that service. What happens to all legal advice once we give it to the client is a really interesting point. Kim is a UK qualified lawyer and consultant in the Legal Service Innovation team at G+T. She designs solutions for lawyers, working closely with deal teams to project manage and streamline large-scale projects, creating efficiencies and quality outputs for clients.
Kim specialises in implementing artificial intelligence tools and has experience in legal technology design and roll-out and change management. She also advises and trains lawyers to use the full spectrum of efficiency tools available at Gilbert + Tobin.
Kim brings a range of practical legal experience to her role, having worked in the UK as an M+A lawyer at a large Magic Circle firm and in-house.
Show notes
The initial idea for this episode was simple - I wanted to speak to Kim about how she explains complex technical topics to non-technical audiences (such as lawyers).
But like with all great things, it evolved quickly. Ultimately, we speak about:
- legal transformation - the state of play today, and speculating what might change in the future;
- The client journey, specifically we discuss what should be considered during the delivery of legal work; and,
- Kim explains the concept of machine learning and computer modeling using art as an analogy
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The factors that go into your experience of it, but I think it's heavily influenced by expectation. I think one of the real difficulties that are being faced in-house by our clients is that they sometimes actually don't know what to expect and we may not communicate that, or maybe they're going to a fancy restaurant just because they want to be seen there.You know, maybe they're not going for the food at a good restaurant - a good service personnel will recognize that and then tailor the experience for them. You're also not going to love going back to a restaurant if it cost you an arm and a leg and you weren't satisfied with that experience. So the expectation and the price has a huge impact on the type of service that we should be looking to deliver as a waiter or as a lawyer...
If you don't adapt, then you don't survive. Equally, you don't want to go off on a limb either, and I think that's what's quite difficult for law firms. Where do you draw that line?
Where is the right amount of change within the organization at a certain point in time? I think it's a very difficult one to judge, but I know that sitting down and doing nothing is not really an option.
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If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
Isabella Galeano is the founder of The Technolawgist. She is head of legal at Abertis Mobility Services, legal tech and legal innovation consultant and Director of the Legal Tech Programme at Esade Law School.
Her mission is to contribute to the transformation of the legal industry and to inspire lawyers around the world.
I mean, changing is always scary. Changing is always difficult, but the cost of not changing, that's scarier to me at this point.Show notes
Isabella has a great breadth of knowledge, and we explore a number of topics in our chat today.
- How Isabella path was driven by wanting to do things differently
- How shifting your perspective can spark the start of an innovation journey - in Isabella’s case being seconded to the client’s business opened her eyes to how to communicate in a way that empowers her clients to make the best business decision
- How in-house lawyers are the cornerstone of transformation in the legal industry, pushing forward change in so many ways
- How markets such as LATAM are embracing technology to solve business problems
- What is top of mind for students, clients, and practitioners when it comes to looking at technology and innovation?
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The challenges we're facing as lawyers. It doesn't matter if you're in the US, Mexico, Singapore, all over the place lawyers are facing the same kinds of challenges: how do we make our practice more efficient? How do we reach our clients? How do we make access to justice better? How do we serve clients that are not being served right now? And what is very interesting to me is that more and more lawyers are realizing that there's these global challenged that we're facing and for the first time they're creating, and we're creating solutions that can be applied across the board.So in that sense, I see a lot of international movement towards solving these global issues. And that's super interesting. And I think it's kind of like the first time it's happening in the legal industry as opposed to any other industries where the incorporation of feedback and technologies and business impact from other parts of the world had been there for a longer time.
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
In recent years, there has been an increase in the number of no-code application development platforms being available. Specifically, there has been an uptick in the adoption of these platforms within the legal profession.
In this episode, we speak with Jackson Liu on Neota Logic to get a primer on no-code application development.
A trend that we're seeing with professional service firms and law firms is that they would build a solution or a product for a particular client and then realize we can actually market this product or this application more broadly. Through the no-code platform, they're able to customize it very, very quickly for other clients.
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Amongst other items, we cover:
- What is a no-code platform
- How these products can be used for rapid prototyping/development
- Create MVP quickly, so it can be made available to early adopters; allow for iterative development through user feedback
- How no-code platforms are being used by firms; three use case we explore are:
- Internal efficiency purposes to address the ‘more for less’ challenge
- Develop revenue-generating solutions
- To win client RFPs: using the rapid prototype process to respond to RFPs with an actually built application
- How Neota, using the right adoption resources & strategies, gets lawyers to become no-code “architects”
- A2J: how do you prepare students (lawyers of tomorrow) through partnerships with universities/colleges/law schools
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
On the show today, we have Stewart Rasmussen. Stew is a friend, a technologist, and someone who is extremely knowledgeable about the Australian market, especially the legal segment.
He's previously worked for the likes of Phoenix Business Solutions in the UK and APAC, served as the Head of Client Services APAC for HighQ, and most recently was the Director of Legal Technology for KPMG Australia.
Stew was at KPMG when we recorded this conversation in 2019 - all views are his own and not those of his employers.
Just a quick note to say that Stew recorded this during a particularly busy afternoon so the audio is a little unclear at times. Please bear with it.
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The new breed of technology companies gets it. They know they need to integrate, and not create those silos - it's quite refreshing to see.I think technologists are doing the best they can to develop products. Otherwise, they're going to just end up in an endless cycle of development and they end up with a product that caters to everybody and nobody at the same time... Whereas, law firms need to become better at saying: is there a standardized approach? Is my bespoke process actually competitive, agile, can we start to adopt the standard by doing it this way now?
We pack quite a lot in a small amount of time. Some highlights include:
- the changing landscape of the Australian Legal Tech Market - bearing in mind it's distant proximity to other large markets
- how different cultures sometimes produce different use cases
- first-mover advantages, or lack thereof, in the legal profession
- the upcoming wave of consolidation, especially within the productized segment of legal
- extendibility of software via APIs and vendor partnerships
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
Allison Hosking is the Head of Knowledge Management at Al Tamimi & Co where she oversees a team responsible for all aspects of the firm’s knowledge management strategy across their 17 offices.
Prior to joining Al Tamimi, Allison worked for over a decade for a magic circle law firm as a senior knowledge and learning manager working in their London, New York and Dubai offices. She is a qualified lawyer and has worked and practised in several jurisdictions including Chile, the USA and India. Allison has a university teaching qualification, is a Fellow of the Higher Education Academy and spent four years teaching at Nottingham Law School on their postgraduate law courses.
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For change management, you need to take people along with you; making sure that as the KM function you are positioning yourself to be the facilitators of practice innovation and enabling people to understand what tools or legal tech is out there for the so that you can be ahead, and be able there to support them.Just some of the items we cover in the episode:
- Working through the question - what is knowledge management? A way of helping organizations leverage the knowledge that the institution has, in a planned & structured manner, to achieve business benefits.
- Knowledge Management as way of working through the past, present and future
- Difference between explicit and tacit knowledge
- Using trust as a vehicle to allow easier sharing of tacit knowledge
- Building a culture of knowledge sharing in a time of extreme change change
- How KM should is relevant, just in time and emergent
- Difference between setting up a KM function is a young market vs. improvements made to an existing function in an established market
- What kinds are requests are lawyers/users going to KM with?
Law is an industry that thrives on knowledge sharing and relationships, and you layer on tech, and that to me is a win-win. A great position to be in. Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
Nina Gratrick is the Head of IT Services at the global law firm of Watson Farley & Williams.
Nina Gratrick An experienced Service Delivery Manager with a demonstrated history of working in the legal industry at a global level. She's a skilled resource manager capable of crossing the divide between technology and people; facilitating engagement at all levels. A coach, a mentor, an agent for change within organisations, supporting people, process and technology transformation to reshape the vision of IT services and support.
We talk about how the evolution of IT service delivery, and how by being customer centric, it's possible to push the boundries of change at your firm.
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Put the customer in the middle of what you're doing, designing, implementing. And go, am I helping or my hindering? Am I gonna make it better? Am I gonna make it worse? And sometimes we make it worse in the short term in order to make it better in the long term. Some takeaways from the episode include:
- Nina's role as a customer advocate within the IT department
- The real investment doesn't always come in the short term, it comes at a cultural shift level
- The difference in the learning curve between when Nina first got her start in the legal profession vs. now; one of the main difference is the increase of integration between different systems
- How do you think about measuring the value of success to the business. Can you provide solutions that show value to 80% of the business quickly, and then cater for the more nuanced use cases from there?
- On being flexible: do you want to be a tanker in the ocean, where you've decided on your direction, on your journey, and that's the way you're going. In order to move/change it requires a lot of work; Or, do you want to be a fleet, where you can move as a large unit really quickly, but you can also change direction just as quickly.
- There shouldn't be more complexity at work, compared to how things work within people's person lives
- We're constantly fixing the same thing - there needs to be a transformation, where we get people to think about technology in a different way
- How do you cross-sell your products/services as the law firm, leveraging the brand and data
- As a tech vendor or a firm-based incubator it gives you access to a wide spectrum of use cases
- The importance of change management within firm, and how customer success teams provided by tech vendors help drive this cultural shift at the firm
- Fail fast, fail smart. Push the boundaries of change.
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
Laura Collins Scott is the Innovation Lead for Clifford Chance in Singapore. In this episode we talk about Laura experience on leading the Create+65 Innovation Lab in Singapore.
Laura Collins Scott began working with Clifford Chance in 2017 when she was initially engaged to define the strategy and business plan for Clifford Chance Applied Solutions.Laura founded BB Consulting in 2016 to help incumbent companies and start-ups design and build innovative products for their customers.
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The three take away from the episode:
- Laura’s meandering journey to her role today. From training as a lawyer to starting her own consultancy and finally landing at Clifford Chance.
- Why the Create+65 program was created - how it was influenced by clients, internal stakeholders, and keeping in mind the competitive landscape.
- Approaching the first anniversary of running the lab, what did Laura and her team have learned that can benefit other firms and individuals.
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
On this episode we have Peter Buck, VP, Product Strategy at NetDocuments. The core of the conversation focuses on tackling multi-teaming - the effects of having multiple people working on multiple projects simultaneously. We pivot then to focus on productivity, discussing how it can be measured and the impact of constant context switching, discussing against the background that it takes one around 25 minutes to reach full productivity, but people are interrupted every 3 minutes!
- Art (culture and perception) and science (data and engineering supporting the argument) of product design
- Multi-teaming: people working on multiple projects simultaneously, which has many benefits as well as many risks. How does this affects knowledge professionals
- Who’s feeling the pain from constant context switching
- Multi-teaming is more prominent with seniority
- How to structure teams to minimize destructive conflict
- Measuring productivity = output as a function of input
- Jamie Teevan’s research looking into micro-productivity as a way to leverage micro-moments throughout one’s day
- It takes almost 25 mins to reach full productivity, but you’re interrupted every 3 minutes
- Twitter: @backofthenapkin
- LinkedIn: Peter Buck
Reading list
Article: https://hbr.org/2017/09/the-overcommitted-organization
Resource: Dr. Jamie Teevan information and publication
Resource: Marc Weiser vision for ubiquitous computing
Book: Smart Collaboration: How Professionals and Their Firms Succeed by Breaking Down Silos
Welcome to the 2nd season of the Fringe Legal podcast. In the first episode we speak with the Maya Markovich, Head of Product at Dentons Nextlaw Labs.
The core theme of the episode is all around innovation; we cover three broad categories:
- The 3 different pillars of NextLaw labs, and how innovation can take the robot out of the lawyer
- How do you catalyze innovation? What that means, and the importance of becoming the connective tissue across the firm/business
- Impact of legal tech on access to justice
Thanks to Maya for taking the time, and also to Isabella Galeno (who’s featured later in the season) for introducing me to Maya.
About Maya
Head of product for Nextlaw Labs, Maya Markovich is an innovation leader with roots in change management, behavioral science, law, VC and tech. She delivers next-generation technology, process, and business growth services for Dentons, the world’s largest law firm, and its clients, including acceleration of the legal tech startups in the Nextlaw Ventures portfolio. Her background enables her to encourage, design and implement the future of the legal profession around the globe.
Maya also serves on the boards of Legal Access Alameda, LexLab, OneJustice, and The Technolawgist, and as mentor for LegalGeek’s Women in LawTech and the University of Arizona TechLaw Fellows program, supporting legal tech initiatives to improve access to justice, gender equity and the future of legal education. She speaks and writes frequently on legal tech and innovation/design, and is deeply committed to leveraging tech for good, especially to increase diversity and access to justice. Find her on LinkedIn and Twitter @MarkovichMaya.
A sneak peak into Season 2 of the Fringe Legal podcast. Episode one of the second season comes out of November 7, 2019. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to be notified of new episodes.
Clarissa Rayward, also known as ‘The Happy Family Lawyer’, specialises in helping couples stay out of Court and work together to reach a resolution to their relationship breakdown. A practising family lawyer,she is the Director of the Brisbane Family Law Centre, a multidisciplinary practice.
Clarissa is based in Brisbane, Australia is a speaker, author, and hosts the popular podcast “Happy Lawyer, Happy Life”.
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Some of the items we cover in the episode include (numbers are time codes):
- How Clarissa went from studying marine biology, to interior design to a practicing lawyer
- How to provide a delight experience to clients even (or perhaps especially) when they are going through difficult situations -> 8.04
- Developing a client centric practice to deliver law in a different way -> 9.14
- Why empathy is so powerful in the practice of law. What is the difference between sympathy and empathy, and how the latter can elevate your practice -> 10.48
- The origins of the “Happy Lawyer” -> 15.06
- How to avoid/manage burnout & stress as a lawyer or any other professional -> 18.30
- How to identify things in your life that cultivate happiness -> 23.28
- The science behind gratitude -> 25.50
- Failure is ok, and learning from failure; restarting -> 31.15
In this penultimate episode of season one, I speak with the fantastic Thao Tran. Thao is the Knowledge Manager at the international firm Fried Frank. She's based in New York, and is also the Member Liaison for ILTA in NYC.
Thao has a unusual route into knowledge management, and in exploring how she got there, we learn ways that can help break into a new role, crowdsource ideas and separate the signal from the noise.
At the end of the episode, I was left with a few pages of notes (and Thao even suggested a job for me after I retire :p)!.
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Some of the highlights include: (numbers are time codes)
- Thao's journey into knowledge management driven by work-life balance, and a nudge from a partner → 2.50
- Thinking through the expansion of the KM function from just one practice area to various → 5.00
- Importance of mentorship and sponsorship (and the differences between the two at a law firm) → 6.00
- Why casting a "wider net" when searching for mentors is so importance, and how it helped shape Thao's career → 8.00
- A primer on knowledge management, what does it mean to Thao and to law firms → 16.24
- Being that bridge between lawyers, technology and management → 19.48
- How to discover where the inefficiencies are, and the benefits of starting small → 25.18
- Separating the signal from the noise, and having a genuine desire to learn from each conversation → 31.01
- What's on the horizon for the remainder of 2019 → 36.30
The episode is available now here (https://www.fringelegal.com/s1-e9-thao-tran-on-crowdsourcing-ideas-the-importance-of-mentorship-and-embracing-the-km-role), on iTunes, Spotify, and everywhere else you get your podcasts.
Nicola Shaver is the global Director of Knowledge Management at Paul Hastings LLP in New York. In her role, she focuses on opportunities to optimize processes and introduce tools that will improve efficiency and productivity, and on leveraging the firm's intellectual capital to better serve clients.
Nicola has worked in the legal services industry for over 15 years in three different jurisdictions. Nicola is passionate about finding innovative solutions to existing problems, building a culture of innovation within law firms, and instilling an empathic approach to design.
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Some of the items we cover in the episode include:
- How Nikki got to NYC - her story of working in three countries
- Nikki’s move to KM - Nikki’s view of KM, and why she thinks it’s such an exciting role to be in
- What she sees as the key components of a KM role
- What are some of the items that will help lawyers actually want to continue to practice law
- The shift in technology, processes, and the way law is practiced
- What is design thinking
- What components make up design thinking
- What are the steps of design thinking
- Empathy
- Define
- Ideate
- Prototype
- Test
- Execute
- Why empathy is one of the key components of any problem solving exercise
- How Nikki was first exposed to Design Thinking
- How her firm explored the concept of design thinking
- How to promote the concept to lawyers and have them be engaged
- What is one key stage, after which, the lawyers will be hooked
- What is range of time investment required for a design thinking workshop
- Some amazing tips to help you out if you’re trying this out for the first time
- Some key takeaways for Nikki after having put design thinking into
- How design thinking can help tap into the “big brains” of lawyers
Angela Dowd is the Director of Practice Innovation for the law firm of Burns & Levinson LLP in Boston, Massachusetts. In her current role with the firm, she is works with practice groups and administrative departments to increase efficiency and streamline business processes. She has also been active member of the International Legal Technology Association (ILTA) for many years, speaking at the annual conference. She is in her second term on the Board of Directors, currently serving as President. In addition, she has spoken at Association of Legal Administrators, Legal Marketing Association and the Law Firm Alliance conferences.
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In this episode I speak to the brilliant Angela Dowd. We really focus the conversation on how to develop a innovator's mindset, and lessons learnt as Director of Practice Innovation at Burns & Levinson LLP, and as the President of the Board of Directors at ILTA.
Some of the highlights include: (numbers are time codes)
- Angela's "organic, rambling path" into legal: going from chemical engineering, HR, training, applications and innovation → 1.20
- Symptomatic problem solving vs business problem solving → 4.17
- Instead of suggesting solutions, focus on learning about the problem the user is trying to solve → 5.40
- The challenges and benefits of working in a "firm of laterals" → 7.20
- "Cross fertilization of innovative ideas" → 10.45
- Make gain where you can, and tying innovation initiatives to business problems → 12.32
- Resistance to change vs desire to change → 13.48
- Reverse mentoring on as a tool to challenge your assumptions → 25.00
- What's on the horizon for the legal profession → 30.00
The episode is available now here (https://www.fringelegal.com/s1-e7-angela-dowd-on-developing-an-innovators-mindset), on iTunes, Spotify, and everywhere else you get your podcasts.
Paul Domnick is President of Litera Microsystems, having been President of Litéra Corp from 2014 to 2017. He brings unique insight into the utility of the Litera Microsystems’ risk management solutions having previously been CIO of Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer for five years. Before taking on this role in early 2007, Paul was head of global IT sourcing for Zurich Financial Services.
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Paul is such a font of knowledge, and has so many great stories which distill some of his learnings. I segmented our conversation in exploring Pauls’ past (being a CIO), his present (President at Litera Microsystems), and the future (what are some items a knowledge worker should be thinking about).
Full disclosure, I work with Paul at Litera Microsystems.
SHOW NOTES
We cover the following in this episode:
- PAST: Pauls’ move from financial services to the legal profession, and how the technology needs differ between law firms and professional service organisations.
- Why Freshfields deliberately hired a CIO (and others) from outside of legal – and why this might be more common in the future.
- Lessons learnt from being a CIO (listening, learning the law firm mechanics, and growing as a leader)
- The role of IT leaders as representatives of change in an organisation
- PRESENT: how running a different kind of procurement organisation at Freshfields led to Paul moving to Litera
- Growing a company from a customer centric view point (grow so you can better serve your client base)
- The formation of Litera Microsystems, and vision behind the creation of a platform company
- FUTURE: true disruption comes when someone does something so drastic with current technology it changes the game
- How technology can have a meaningful impact on people’s life and what role innovation plays into this
- Trends for the knowledge worker – the idea of augmentating technology to your current role
- AI becoming an ubiquitous piece of technology. AI is successful when you don’t know it’s around you.
- Advantage of a first mover vs being a fast follower
You can find out more information about at Litera Microsystems on their website.
Full show notes can be found at https://www.fringelegal.com/s1-e6-paul-domnick-on-the-changing-landscape-of-the-legal-profession
Thomas Haines is a software engineer and entrepreneur . He is the CEO/Founder of Practice Insight and he currently works on the company's latest tool - WiseTime, an autonomous, privacy first timekeeping software. Tom holds a BSc, LLB (Hons), and LLM, and has qualified as a solicitor, barrister and Australian registered patent attorney.
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This was an interesting conversation, speaking with someone who has had quick a varied background starting with working as part of Apple's sales team, going on to study computer science, practicing law and then founding his own company.
We cover the following in this episode:
- Tom's winding journey into legal profession and becoming an entrepreneur
- When creating product, the importance of solving a real business problem (especially when it can also uncover principal opportunities at your firm)
- The importance of creating elegant software, but focusing on the small things and augmenting the users current workflow
- Tom's rule of positioning software - show an expected 6X return on investment. This will help mitigate the risk associated with adoption, change management, and implementation
- How one call from a $700M business changed Tom's life
- How a product with $0 revenue can still have the most potential and promise
- What is WiseTime and what does autonomous privacy focused time keeping mean?
- Value in automating/eliminating low level tasks
- The three pillars of timekeeping software
- Privacy
- Elegance
- Integration
- When it comes to privacy - the starting point should be that the data belongs to the individual. And why this privacy first principle has made the difference between firms adopting the technology, and not.
You can find out more information about at WiseTime.io, including a quick video and more.
Full show notes can be found at https://www.fringelegal.com/s1-e5-thomas-haines-on-autonomous-privacy-first-timekeeping
Andrea Markstrom serves as Blank Rome’s Chief Information Officer, responsible for leading Firm-wide technology and security initiatives across all of Blank Rome’s practices and geographies. Andrea also started the Women Leaders Networking Group in New York, and would welcome any questions and provide more information anyone interested.
Meredith Lonner is the Administrator at Franklin, Weinrib, Rudell & Vassallo, P.C. a leading boutique law firm based in New York City specializing in entertainment law.
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Andrea and Meredith are from very different firms, not just in the type of law they practice, but also more obviously, the size. There were plenty of contrasts between how Meredith and Andrea approach similar topics, such as looking at technology, working with the partnership, and even how they found themselves to be in legal. However, (and perhaps surprisingly) there were similarities also and I walked away from the conversation with plenty of learnings.
We cover the following in this episode:
- Their very different journey into legal (from Target Corp vs from working in a law firm as a paralegal)
- How to work with internal stakeholders (listening to 700 vs 16 business owners)
- What does an Administrator do at a small firm
- What Andrea considers to be the role of a CIO and how it affects her outlook on innovation
- The importance of security
- How Andrea & Meredith consider the purchase of technology and new initiatives
- How Blockchain might be relevant for the entertainment industry
- The pressures of competition across both their businesses
- Women in tech
Andrea also started the Women Leaders Networking Group in New York, and would welcome any questions and provide more information anyone interested.
Full show notes can be found at http://fringelegal.com/s1-e4-andrea-markstom-and-meredith-lonner-on-being-women-leaders
Stevie Ghiassi is CEO of Legaler, a secure online communication and collaboration tool for lawyers, CEO of Legaler Aid, a blockchain-based legal aid service that promotes access to justice, as well as President of the Australian Legal Technology Association.
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Stevie wears a number of hats, and most recently he published the viral book Blockchain for Lawyers. Rather than talking about the ins-and-outs of blockchain technology, instead we focus on what learning about matters and the impact it will have on the legal profession.
We cover the following in this episode:
- Stevie's journey into legal technology
- How and why Legaler founded
- The issue of access to justice, and how Legaler Aid aims to create a more accountable & transparent solution to this problem
- What is the blockchain and why does it matter
- The biggest change in trust, and how this will disrupt the nature of legal work
- Thinking about the speed of transactions on the blockchain, and the upcoming public network Legaler is working on
- The idea of global ID based on the blockchain
- Australia as the hotbed of legal technology
Full show notes can be found at http://fringelegal.com/s1-e3-stevie-ghiassi-on-blockchain-disrupting-legal.
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
Resources
- Legaler
- Blockchain for Lawyers
- ALTA
- Satoshi Nakamoto white paper and walkthrough
Some of the items we cover in the episode include:
- Kate’s move from being a consultant to law firms, to working in a law firm.
- The concept of ikigai, and the venn diagram of Kate’s viewpoints
- people
- law
- tech
- What does KM mean to Kate, and how she segments her projects into four buckets:
- Research & development (innovations)
- Precedents and playbook
- Training
- Practice innovation (process + pricing)
- Entrepreneurship and Intrepreneurship at Bennett Jones
- The importance of being curious and listening
- Kate’s advice to embrace ambiguity, and taking calculated risks
Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
SPECIAL GUEST: KATE SIMPSON
Kate is responsible for developing the firm’s knowledge management strategy and initiatives, and leads a team of KM specialists in delivering practice tools and resources that leverage the firm’s intellectual capital.
Prior to Bennett Jones, Kate was a consultant to many Canadian, UK and global law firms advising them in the design and implementation of useful, usable and engaging KM solutions that benefited both the lawyers and their clients.
Connect with Kate on LinkedIn or Twitter.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbSwith #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
Joy Heath Rush is the CEO of International Legal Technology Association, and a industry veteran.
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In this this inaugural episode of the podcast, we speak with Joy about her views on the changing legal landscape. Amongst other items, we discuss testing assumptions she had about the ILTA community, trends she's seeing in the legal profession, and what firm leaders can put into action immediately to make a noticeable difference.
SHOW NOTES
Some of the items we cover in the episode include:
- The value of listening, and the learning about the deep love & passion for the ILTA organisation
- The four key learning about the ILTA community Joy learnt about as she became CEO
- A need for more diversity
- People have too many ideas, and they don't know what to do with them
- The need for greater transparency
- The want from the community to volunteer more
- We also cover some trends & patterns Joy observed across the wider industry
- Innovation is overhyped
- The lack of understanding around emerging topics/technologies
- How the law firm business landscape is changing
- The prevalence of "the cloud"
- The importance of data driven performance tracking
- Increasing competition from the Big 4
- How law schools are stepping up and becoming more engaged
- What action can law firm leaders take today to make an impact
Full episode show notes, and relevant links can be found here. Please subscribe, and if you enjoyed the episode help me by leaving a review.
If you have questions, comments, or feedback then please tweet to me @WhoIsAbS with #FringeLegal or email me on ab@fringelegal.com
A sneak peak into Season 1 of the Fringe Legal podcast. Episode one comes out of March 8, 2019. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to be notified of new episodes.