Now as Then: Recent Episodes
Robyn Price
Ever heard of Isis? (Hint: you probably did.) Ranging from the Christian Roman Empire to the painting on Nefretiti’s tomb, Isis has been here, there, and everywhere. Interestingly, there seems to be a cyclical relationship between Isis and women. Isis represented the general autonomy of Egyptian women. Likewise, Egyptian royals, such as Cleopatra and Nefertiti, used Isis to legitimize their rule in Ancient Egypt. Over time, the appeal of Isis became so great that she became a protective figure from Dynastic Egypt to the Roman Christian World.
Hosted by:
Megan Vu, (Undergraduate, Brown)
Nyimah Thompson, (Undergraduate, Brown)
Selena Yuan, (Undergraduate, Brown)
Richard Fleming, (Undergraduate, Brown)
TranscriptINTRODUCTION (PART 1) (00:00:10-00:01:30)
Megan: Picture this, you’re at the Nile River. Maybe you’re fishing, where the sun hits the water at just the right angle to get that rainbowy-kaleidoscopic effect. Or maybe, you’re weaving baskets with the soft, but tough grass from the Nile Shore. While looking for the best grass to use, you stumble across a woman hiding a shiny, golden coffin among the reeds. But here’s the kicker; the coffin is carrying Osiris (the to-be God of the Underworld), but the woman is his wife: the goddess Isis.
Hello, fellow viewers! It’s Megan here, back with an episode for Now As Then. I’m a student from Brown University, right here in the beautiful city of Providence, Rhode Island. While I’m currently studying medicine, I also like studying classics and ancient civilizations in my free time (in this case, Ancient Egypt). I’m also joined by my other colleagues Selena, Richard, and Nyimah. Care to give yourselves a short intro?
Selena: Hi, I’m Selena, and I’m planning on studying applied-math and economics. I know, quite different from archaeology.
Nyimah: What’s up? I’m Nyimah, a freshman who’s planning to study psychology.
Richard: Hello, I’m Richard. I’m studying computer science, and I’m planning on working with machine learning.
INTRODUCTION (PART 2) (00:01:31-00:06:12)
Megan: Haha, this is one of the reasons why I love this class. It truly has the ability to draw people in from far and wide, and from various backgrounds! Now that we all got to know each other, let’s talk about the star of our show: Isis.
Nyimah: In general, Isis seems to be a protector, capable of unifying all of Egypt, and even has rejuvenating magic2. Now, let me bring up an interesting question: what’s her relationship with Egyptian women? Do we think that she empowers them? Or that she really doesn’t?
Megan: That is an interesting question. Before that though, who exactly was Isis?
Selena: Let’s start with her name. According to an Egyptologist named Joyce Tydesley, Isis’ original Egyptian name was Aset. It changed to Isis sometime during the Greco-Roman rule (332 BC -395 AD). Her name was depicted by a sign of a throne. She could also appear with a small throne on her crown. Both pictures usually symbolize royalty.
Richard: Yeah, and also her name quite literally translates to “Queen of the Throne.”
Nyimah: God, what a powerhouse. Remember the time that we went to the John Hay Library? We saw their special collections and found a huge compilation of Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Megan: Yeah! I remember that. I also remember seeing an image where Isis had both the crown of Upper and Lower Egypt, which is quite fascinating. It’s usually uncommon for a woman to hold this much power. But what’s her story like?
Selena: So, the legend of Isis had multiple variations, but in its most simplest form, it goes something like this. Isis was the sister and wife of the god Osiris. In fact, they were twins and were said to have fallen in love in the womb5. Their stories were actually one of the great romantic tragedies back then.
Nyimah: The most famous rendition that I know of is by Plutarch, a Greek philosopher. In his version, Osiris was murdered and dismembered by his jealous brother Seth. After, Isis
Megan: Oh! I remember hearing about this. In my version, though, Isis devoted herself to finding the different parts of Osiris. The gods were so impressed by her dedication that they helped put Osiris back together.
Richard: Oh yeah, that story was super fitting of what her initial powers were. She was the protector of women and creator of magic. And even after thousands of years, she became the Queen of the Universe.
Nyimah: That really is quite interesting. She also influenced different parts of Egyptian society, even mummification rites!
Megan: You’re right! Remember when we took that class trip to the Rhode Island’s School of Design, we went to their museum, and I remember seeing a cool artifact. I’m the furthest thing from an Egyptologist, but it was called a pectoral. And, for our listeners by the way, a pectoral was something strung around the neck of the deceased. It’s sort of an amulet that was believed to have powers of protection. It was carved to look like Isis, with her arms spread out. But what was interesting was that she had wings or feathers of some sort, aligning underneath her arms9.
Selena: I remember seeing that. Her wings were so intricate, and I found out her wings represented freedom. It would originally be sewn into the dead’s linen as a means of protection for their journey into the afterlife. Egyptians were huge on amulets, so whatever shape the amulets took on was representative of their powers. In other words, this pectoral was a symbol of Isis to protect their dead in the afterlife.
Richard: Yeah, it really feels like Isis is giving you a big hug. Her outstretched wings truly emphasize her status as a protector.
Nyimah: Speaking of the afterlife, let’s look at an example. There’s a tomb belonging to a New Kingdom pharaoh called Seti I. In his tomb there are depictions of Isis all around or right above the body11. Remember the story of her and Osiris from earlier? Isis was believed to restore the souls of deceased humans to wholeness as she did with her husband.
Megan: Isis was huge on magic. Overall, it seems as though she’s associated with the ideas of freedom and divine protection. This idea was so attractive. Over time, Isis became this sort of protective figure during Dynastic Egypt all the way to the Roman Christian world.
Selena: So, to sum it up, Isis was a symbol of female empowerment. She reflected the freedom and autonomy of Egyptian women, particularly in royalty like Nefertari, Cleopatra, and Hatshepsut.
EGYPTIAN WOMEN (00:06:14-00:16:21)
Megan: Now we all agree that Isis was an incredibly powerful goddess, right? From our earlier discussion, she’s associated with the ideas of freedom, divine protection, and motherhood. In fact, there’s a hymn for Osiris from the New Kingdom that accurately summarizes Isis’s character. “His sister was his guard, the mighty Isis who protected her brother, seeking him without tiring, not arresting until she found him.” Overall, we get this sense that Isis was dedicated, a protector and that’s what makes her so fascinating.
Nyimah: she was a powerful symbol of female independence. For now, it’s important to look closer at women’s rights. For example, they can learn to read and write freely, participate in trade and business, buy and own property, speak out in court, and even divorce their own husbands.
Selena: Right, It’s so fascinating how people tend to forget this. Like Greek women, especially those of the lower class were subjected to the home where they took care of children and performed domestic duties. They did this because they thought women were a sin in a sense.
Megan: And yes, I would agree. For another class, I did extra reading and stumbled across this article called Women in Ancient Greece. Essentially women were forced to stay inside the home because it was believed that they would be seduced by other men in societies like Ancient Greece. There was this idea that women were immoral and lacked self-restraint.
Selena: Exactly. Especially with the idea that the woman’s sole purpose was to bear children. So, forcing women to stay in the home was a means to reduce the chance of her getting seduced.
Richard: Yeah. But I think it would be difficult to give an exact answer. There’s no surefire way of knowing, except for looking at Egyptian art from the Dynastic period. Usually, upper-class women and daughters were included in these pieces of art by virtue of their relationship to a particular man. In this way, these women conform to the stereotypical view of the idea that the Egyptian female was a passive support for her husband or father from the Dynastic Egyptian tombs. Seems like they want to reinforce the idea that the man rather than his wife was the head of the household.
Megan: And I would agree. But there were exceptions to that rule. Let’s first go to our first woman from the old Kingdom. Her name was Lady Nebet and she worked as a supervisor and writer within Ancient Egypt. She was titled daughter of Gev, daughter of Thoth and daughter of Horus. Since Horus was the son of Isis. It’s like she’s claiming that she’s directly related to the goddess.
Nyimah: Isis was considered a powerful sorceress and healer. It was also said that she had taught women such skills. Egyptian women also worked as a supervisor or writer to help get income from outside the house. It gives a sense that Lady Nebet has a bunch of power and autonomy within society similar to Isis.
Richard: Yeah definitely, Isis represented the autonomy of women through funeral rites during the old kingdom. Women could work as professional mourners. Usually, they were specialists who were hired to enhance the status of the deceased by openly grieving at one’s funeral. Tyldesley says, “Two women were chosen to impersonate the two Isis and Nephthys, the sisters of Osiris who assumed the shape of birds while searching the world for their dead brother.”
Nyimah: Funerary matters are usually where women can share their voices the most, especially in misogynistic cultures like those of the Greeks and Romans. Funerals and public mourning are one of the main ways women can share their voices.
Selena: Yeah, and there are also other women who can share their voices even louder. Egyptian queens. Egyptian queens and regents aren’t defined by their husbands. For instance, there’s a tomb from the fourth dynasty for a queen named Meresankh and it displayed her picking lotus blossoms while riding on a boat with her mother.
Richard: Yeah, and what’s significant about that, instead of her husband or brother, it was her mother that was with her in the tomb. This would imply that female queens could act independently, separately from their husbands.
Nyimah: That is very interesting, but what does she have to do with Isis? Does she resemble her at all?
Megan: Well, remember that story where Isis resurrected Osiris? Isis seemed to have the more dominant, ” heroic” role of that story. You don’t see Osiris doing anything, but it was Isis, the woman of the story, that was doing the heroic deeds. In other words, she made her own identity on her own terms. She acted independently, based on her own will, and separate from that of Osiris. I believe that’s what makes Isis so attractive. She didn’t need her husband to flourish. That would be similar to Meresankh. You don’t see her husband or brother on her tomb. She focused on her relationship with her mother.
Richard: Exactly. Also, Isis had a son with Osiris named Horus. After Osiris passed, Isis raised Horus until he was powerful enough to challenge his uncle, Seth, and become king of Egypt. Things like this happened with other Egyptian queens, particularly Hatshepsut and Nefertiti.
Selena: I briefly remember Hatshepsut from a class discussion. I think she’s from the 18th dynasty, and she was the only queen whose rule wasn’t followed by a period of chaos.
Megan: And you would be right. Hatshepsut was a force to be reckoned with. When Hatshepsut’s stepson, Thutmose III, succeeded his father’s throne at a young age, Hatshepsut served as a regent and supported him, offering him guidance and whatnot. Like that story from Isis earlier.
Richard: Yeah, the one where she raised and protected Horus when he was younger?
Megan: Exactly. Did you know that she eventually called herself Pharaoh? The way I see it, it could be a strategic move on Hatshepsut’s part to declare herself pharaoh. It’s like she’s fulfilling a divine duty, and thus she can portray herself as a protector and guide. And by portraying herself as a protector like Isis, she could legitimize her rule, and display herself as a ruler chosen by the gods.
Nyimah: Okay, I see. Hatshepsut guided her stepson and ruled alongside him, similar to how Isis helped Horus.
Selena: Okay, alright, so there’s this idea that Isis could be empowering women because women like Hatshepsut have real power and rights, which were rare in ancient societies. It’s because powerful women like Hatshepsut exist that Isis can become such a powerful symbol for women.
Megan: Oh yeah, but now I’m gonna break your brains just a little bit. There’s another queen, and I think you would all know her. Cleopatra. Tildesley wrote about her too. In her work, Cleopatra, the Last Queen.
Richard: Yeah, and I think we all know her and her fling with Mark Anthony.
Megan: And you would be right, but she was also an incredibly special queen. Similar to Hatshepsut, Cleopatra legitimized her rule by making it as though she and Isis were the same person, thus forging her own powerful and divine identity. And, it is similar in a way.
Nyimah: For instance, she tried to portray herself as a daughter of Ra, so she would have the divine right to rule. And now, Cleopatra associates herself with Isis, the Great Mother.
Selena: Whoa, that’s incredibly interesting. Does she share a similar protection story like that of Hatshepsut?
Megan: Mmm, it’s a little bit different from that. There were several artifacts where Isis had Horus sitting on her lap. Other times she would be suckling Horus. This image could be interpreted as Egyptian queens suckling their sons. Remember, there’s a strong connection between Isis and kingship, and Cleopatra used this well-known imagery to her advantage.
Nyimah: Really? How?
Megan: Well, during her rule, she printed this suckling image on Cybrian coins. When she had her son, Caesarion, Cleopatra portrayed herself in the same way. Her son was on her left, and she’s suckling him. Isis left was considered the throne of kings. So, by using this imagery, it’s like Cleopatra is telling us her lap is also the throne of kings and that she’s a goddess herself. In addition, since this image was incredibly common among the Egyptians, it just further solidified the idea that Cleopatra and Isis were the same.
Richard: Yeah, exactly. Cleopatra created her own divine identity and proved herself able to rule all over Egypt with the power of Pharaoh. Also, this makes me think more about Egyptian queens and how they further exemplify Isis.
Nyimah: Really? How?
Megan: It has something to do with the relationship between pharaohs and their gods. Tildesley had this idea about a contract between the two parties. The gods keep everything in order, a.k.a. maat, in Egyptian terms, and they’re treated like gods. This was because it was believed that they could ward off chaos, and thus the Egyptians established their own sense of justice.
Selena: And in return, they give sacrifices and temples and all of that for the gods. But because the pharaohs had this immense power, they established order, justice, and united all of Egypt. They’re usually associated with or worshipped as though they’re a god. Isis does help empower these women, such as Cleopatra because it’s like these female pharaohs could create order and
Richard: Interesting. I think I have another queen who relates to this idea. Queen Nefertari. Particularly, I want to look at a painting of her tomb in the Met Museum in New York City.
Selena: Sounds amazing. What did the painting look like?
Richard: On Nefertari’s tomb, there was an inscription showing Isis holding her hand, leading her into the afterlife.
Nyimah: That does make an interesting picture. What about her husband, Ramses III?
Megan: And that’s the fun part! Her husband was nowhere to be found! The painting also demonstrates Isis’s importance in leading royals to the afterlife. The Editions believe that the afterlife isn’t the end, but it’s the beginning to the next part of one’s life.
Selena: That’s really cool. I think that it shows that Nefertari’s identity wasn’t shaped by her husband. In fact, it also shows how Isis had the power and importance equivalent to that of a husband. It also further demonstrates Isis ability to nurture royals as she’s helping Nefertari into the next part of her life.
Richard: This is all really fascinating, but it also makes me wonder, do these ideas about Isis continue into other eras, like the Roman Christian world?
Nyimah: Well, to answer that question, we have to explore ancient Rome. Let’s go! ASIDE TO THE AUDIENCE (00:16:22-00:17:04)
Megan: Wait, wait, hold up. This may sound like a lot of information, but let’s have a recap. First, Egyptian women had more rights than other women in other civilizations. They can own property, divorce their husbands, work outside the home, etc. Because of that, Isis rose as a symbol for women’s empowerment. Egyptian royals like Hatshepsut and Cleopatra used the appeal of Isis’s divinity to legitimize their role. Hatshepsut represents Isis’s protection and guidance. Cleopatra became associated with Isis and developed her own divine identity, something unheard of in other civilizations. Now that we got that straight, let’s head to the beautiful city of Rome.
ISIS X MOTHERHOOD (00:17:05-00:21:21)
Nyimah: We have arrived in Rome, the empire of vast knowledge, eternal beauty, and acceptance. As you walk around the streets of this ancient empire, notice some of the things around you. Feel the warmth of the morning sun on your face, and a cool breeze rushing past you. Look at the multitudes of people starting their day.
Selena: The men going to whatever job awaited them at their destination, the women are flowing through the market and talking with everyone around them, and the children are making their way to school to be educated. Breathe in the dust from the number of carts being dragged along the dirt streets. Now, take a moment and bask in your imagination. When you close your eyes can you see yourself there?
Richard: Absolutely, I can.
Megan: Oh yeahhhh, I can see it. Rome is absolutely gorgeous.
Nyimah: Great! Now, as we continue I want you to keep this picture in the back of your minds. It’s going to be very helpful in the discussion during this next part. Ancient Rome was an Empire full of curiosity, especially toward other cultures and the specific characteristics of those cultures, like religion. In this section of the podcast, we will discuss the Roman view of two prominent female figures in two very different religions. The Goddess Isis from the Egyptian world and The Virgin Mary from the Christian world.
Megan: Sounds amazing! What would the Virgin Mary have anything to do with Isis?
Nyimah: Great question! These two women shouldn’t even be brought up in the same conversation when they have nothing to do with each other, right? But, this statement is not totally true. Even though Isis and the Virgin Mary represent different characteristics of their respective religions, they do share one similarity: the importance of motherhood.
Megan: Oooohhhhh! What an interesting connection! The Ancient Egyptians did think of Isis as the Great Mother, or the Mother Goddess.
Nyimah: To help get a better understanding, I want to include a brief explanation from the undergrad Katherine Burdick’s thesis on The Power of Mothers: A Comparison of the Egyptian Goddess Isis and Virgin Mary. She talks about how both Isis and the Virgin Mary were famous religious figures in the Roman Empire during similar time periods. And through this, as time progressed people (at least in the European world) people were unable to decide which one came before the other, and eventually, both women started to represent similar things.
Selena: What kind of things?
Nyimah: Well, do you all know the story of the Virgin Mary?
Richard: Yeah, of course! She was visited by the archangel Gabriel one night and was told that God had chosen her to bring his son into the world.
Nyimah: Right, and the message that this story conveys is that Mary represents the ideal mother. She was personally chosen by God to raise the son that would liberate the world. I don’t know about you, but to me, that sounds like an overwhelming amount of pressure that I would not be able to handle. But, for Mary it was her calling.
Megan: And in a similar way, in all of the stories told about Isis and Osiris, it seems that other than wanting her husband to be whole, Isis wanted to find his body so that she could conceive a child (a.k.a. Horus the enemy of his uncle Seth). And, this child would accompany his father in the afterlife and his mother in the mortal world.
Selena: Right, again, we see this theme of a woman’s main purpose being the opportunity to bring a child to life, and these children, in some way, end up affecting the world they’re entering.
Nyimah: I want to mention two pictures from the article Mothers: The Influence of Isis on the Virgin Mary. The two pictures show statues of both Isis and Mary. The first statue was made in the 7th century CE and shows the Virgin Mary breastfeeding baby Jesus. The second statue shows the same image, but instead it depicts the Goddess Isis and was made in 7th-6th century BCE. Both statues were made in different time periods and depict both women showing her care for a child. It’s clear what the message being conveyed is.
Richard: Yeah, messages like these have been passed down for centuries in their respective cultures. We can really see that the concept of giving birth (especially to sons) was something celebrated. People strongly believed that their kids change the world, and it was a woman’s honor and duty to give life to them.
CONCLUSION (00:21:22-00:26:28)
Megan: Although the ancient world doesn’t currently exist, Isis is farrrr from forgotten. We can still see glimpses of her in the modern day! For instance, there was the cult of Isis. Yeah, did you all think we would forget about that?
Nyimah: Isis was seen as “The Mother Goddess,” and her influence spread from outside of Egypt, from the Roman Empire all the way to Afghanistan! 36
Selena: These days, people use Isis for more commercial uses. In 2014, singer Katy Perry created a music video for her single “Dark Horse” (which, by the way, I really liked). Around the end of the video, Katy Perry ascends to the top of Pyramid with wings alongside her arms37. Remember that pectoral from RISD we talked about? Where Isis had wings outstretched? I believe Perry was trying to emulate Isis’ power, but purely for commercial purposes.
Richard: Yeaahh, the same can be said for Hollywood movies. In the movie “Gods of Egypt.” They talk about the battle between the god Horace and Seth to determine who would be pharaoh over Egypt. Katheryn Blake played Isis in that movie.
Nyimah: Oh yeahh, I remember that! It does remind us that people use Ancient Egypt for commercial means. All the actors were white, so there was truly a lack of Egyptian dialogue.
Megan: Yeaahh, sadly. I remember that movie getting a lot of hate for being incredibly whitewashed. I remember the reviews were also pretty brutal. Mostly, it was because, and you’re right, because of the lack of the Egyptian voice and actors.
SELENA: Yeah, I also think it’s important to note that while it sucks that modern depictions of Isis are farrrrr from what she originally represented, it can be argued that without this exaggerated imagery, people might forget about Isis and Ancient Egypt altogether.
RICHARD: I feel like we can talk about Isis forever, but these topics sound like they’re for another episode. Thank you for joining us today on an episode of “Now as Then.” If you’re interested in learning more about Ancient Egypt, just visit our website and watch other episodes from us. The team and I here are truly excited to have you here with us today, and we hope that we gave you an interesting take on the intersection of Isis and Egyptian women.
MEGAN: I would also like to thank the people who made this episode possible. Special thanks to our professor Robyn Price, who made this opportunity possible and introduced us to Audacity! Thanks to Izzy of the Rockefeller Library to help us with the studio room (and giving us tips for editing audio). Also, to Karen Bouchard of the John Hay Library and helped us look at the Library’s Special Collections. Honestly, you all are super amazing, super kind people. Thank you so much for listening to us!
Everyone: Goodbye!!!
OUTRO MUSIC (00:26:28-00:26:38)
Works CitedBurdick, Katherine. The Power of Mothers: A Comparison of the Egyptian Goddess Isis and Virgin Mary during the Roman Empire through Literature and Art. 2022, pp. 1–72,
digitalcommons.providence.edu/history_undergrad_theses/54. Accessed 5 Nov. 2023. “The Goddess Isis and Her Son Horus: Ptolemaic Period.” The Metropolitan Museum of Art, www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/548310. Accessed 06 Nov. 2023.
Higgins, Sabrina. “Divine Mothers: The Influence of Isis on the Virgin Mary in Egyptian Lactans-Iconography*.” Journal of the Canadian Society for Coptic Studies, vol. 3-4, 2012, pp. 71–90. Accessed 4 Nov. 2023.
Hoffman, Jordan. “Gods of Egypt Review – Ridiculous, Offensive and Tremendously Fun.” The Guardian, 26 Feb. 2016,
www.theguardian.com/film/2016/feb/27/gods-of-egypt-review-ridiculous-offensive-and-tremen dously-fun. Accessed 17 Dec. 2023.
“KV17 Sety I.” Theban Mapping Project, American Research Center in Egypt,
Kwiecinski, Jakub M. “Merit Ptah, ‘The First Woman Physician’: Crafting of a Feminist History with an Ancient Egyptian Setting.” Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, vol. 75, no. 1, 2020, pp. 83–106, https://doi.org/10.1093/jhmas/jrz058.
Perry, Katy. Dark Horse (Official) Ft. Juicy J. Youtube, Capitol Records, 20 Feb. 2014, www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KSOMA3QBU0.
Plutarch, et al. Plutarch’s Moralia. Internet Archive, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; London: W. Heinemann, 1927, archive.org/details/plutarchsmoralia05plut/page/n9/mode/2up. Accessed 14 Nov. 2023.
Shahrukh Husain. The Goddess : Power, Sexuality, and the Feminine Divine. University of Michigan Press, 2003.
Simpson, William Kelly. The Literature of Ancient Egypt : An Anthology of Stories, Instructions, and Poetry, Yale University Press, 2003. ProQuest Ebook Central,
https://ebookcentral-proquest-com.revproxy.brown.edu/lib/brown/detail.action?docID=341996 1.
Tyldesley, Joyce A. Daughters of Isis : Women of Ancient Egypt. 1st ed., Viking, 1994. Tyldesley, Joyce. “Isis.” Encyclopedia Britannica, 6 Aug. 2023,
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Isis-Egyptian-goddess. Accessed 17 December 2023. Tyldesley, Joyce A., and Julian Heath. “THE STORY OF ISIS AND OSIRIS.” Stories from Ancient Egypt, Oxbow Books, 2012, p. 21–.
Tyldesley, Joyce. “The New Isis.” Cleopatra, Basic Books, 2008.
Unknown. The Goddess Isis and Her Son Horus. 332-30 B.C., The Met, New York City. Faience. “Unknown Maker, Egyptian.” RISD Museum, 10 June 2014,
risdmuseum.org/art-design/collection/winged-isis-pectoral-1996731?return=%2Fart-design%2Fc ollection%3Fsearch_api_fulltext%3Disis.
UT Austin, The Story of Osiris, Isis and Horus: The Egyptian Myth of Creation
Wilkinson, Charles K. Queen Nefertari Led by Isis. 1279-1213 B.C., The Met, New York City. Facsimile, Tempera on Paper.
Witt, R.E. Isis in the Ancient World. Baltimore, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1997. “Women in Ancient Greece.” Encyclopedia of the Ancient Greek World, 2015.
The ancient Egyptian pyramids have been admired for thousands of years and along with that admiration has come varying theories for how the pyramids were constructed. Over the years, many alternative western theories have arose, often discrediting and underselling the achievements of the ancient Egyptians and these alternative theories have contributed to the perception of Egypt as a mystical place that is part of the “orient”. Through primary and secondary sources from the ancient Greeks to contemporary research, we explore how the perception of the construction of the pyramids have changed over time, break down why Egypt specifically has experienced this, and how archaeologically attested evidence and Egyptologist research have proposed the most likely explanation for the creation of the pyramids. The pyramids continue to be a testament to the ingenuity and skill of the Ancient Egyptians and discovering how the pyramids were created gives us a more genuine appreciation of ancient Egypt.
Hosted by:
John Huang (Undergraduate, Brown)
Alex Ziegler (Undergraduate, Brown)
Sidhant Sharma (Undergraduate, Brown)
Wheeler Padgett (Undergraduate, Brown)
Transcript:Introduction:
John: Hello everyone, welcome to our podcast: Deconstructing the Construction of the Pyramids, Episode 5 of Season 3 of the Now as Then podcast. My name is John Huang and I’m joined by my mates, Alex Ziegler (“hi with your name”), Sidhant Sharma (“hello with your name”), and Wheeler Padgett (“hey with your name”). Before we get started, we want to give a big thank you to Alexandra Poterack, Karen Bouchard, Laura Stokes, Izzy Ulasz, and of course Dr. Robyn Price for all of their help in the crafting of this episode.
Sid: Today we will be talking about the Ancient Egyptian pyramids. Throughout history, visitors to Egypt have been amazed by the Pyramids of Giza. In this podcast, we will be exploring how travelers across generations have hypothesized about the creation of the pyramids, from ancient Greeks and Romans to English and French colonists to finally, current day archaeologists, Egyptologists, and scientists.
Wheeler: There are over 100 pyramids in Egypt, the most famous of which are the three pyramids at Giza. Most pyramids were constructed during the Old Kingdom period. They were built to serve as monuments to the gods and tombs of the pharaohs, that would house their souls after their deaths. The first pyramids were the Step Pyramids, which were layered, rough monuments originally designed by the architect Imhotep. Over time, the design was refined by the Ancient Egyptians, making the pyramids larger and more intricate until they reached the design that captures the attention of so many people today. These gigantic tombs have enthralled the world for thousands of years.
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Alex: The Ancient Greeks were one of the earliest groups to record their travels to Egypt. Beginning with Hecataeus of Miletus, many Greek scholars were fascinated by Egypt and wrote of its culture and history. Herodotus’s Histories are the oldest remaining example of these texts. Published in 430 B.C.E., the Histories are mainly an account of the Greek and Persian wars; however, they also contain “An Account of Egypt” describing Herodotus’s time there. Shortly after the time of Herodotus, Alexander the Great, who was Macedonian but shared much of Greek culture, conquered Egypt and established the city of Alexandria and his own Pharaonic rule of Egypt. For the next 300 years foreign rulers continued to govern Egypt through what was known as the Ptolemaic Period. During this time Greek writers such as Diodorus of Sicily and Strabo, wrote their own descriptions of Egypt and the Pyramids.
Sid: Civil war in the latter end of the Ptolemaic period perfectly set the stage for the later Roman visitors. They ruled Egypt from 30 BCE all the way until about 641 AD and had a wide range of attitudes towards the pyramids and their construction. The major primary accounts come from historians and philosophers, the most famous of which was Pliny the Elder. However, the views of the Roman emperors and common people, while not as well documented, were also significant.
John (Narrator): Wouldn’t it be nice to hear this from the sources themselves? Fortunately, today we’re diving into some conversations with some of the first few visitors to Egypt. However, these sources are all depictions of the ancient Egyptian world by scholars from the Western world. Therefore, it is important to consider how Egyptology and archaeologically backed perspectives differ from this. With that in mind, here’s Herodotus with his views first.
Alex: (Herodotus) As the first to record my visit to the Pyramids I have determined that they were built by a collection of evil kings during the 8th Century. The king Cheops commissioned the first pyramid at Giza. The natives there told me that the pyramid was built like a flight of stairs “[using] appliances made out of short pieces of wood to lift the blocks of stone.” . 100,000 men worked over 20 years to complete the Pyramid of Cheops. The construction of the Pyramids was extremely expensive; it is recorded that they spent 1,600 talents of silver on radishes, onions and garlic alone .
John: (Narrator) “Interesting, but what did Roman historians like Pliny have to say about this?”
Sid (Pliny): I personally don’t see why we are even considering these Ancient Greek tales. After all, the Roman empire was but an improved version of Greek civilization. Historians like me synthesized the knowledge of multiple Greek historians, with theories including: 1600 talents was spent on food for laborers, salt and alkalis were used to create ramps for the building blocks of the pyramids and then flooded and destroyed by the Nile annually, or that bridges were made from mud bricks that were given to individuals to build their houses once the pyramids were made. I sorted through and analyzed works from popular authors like Herodotus, Dionysius, and lesser known ones like Duris of Samos and Alexander Polyhistor, critically analyzing each one and coming to the conclusion that “it took 360,000 men twenty years to build the Great Pyramid and the time for all three pyramids of Giza combined was 88 years and four months”. I was the original Encyclopedia Britannica!
Sid (Voiceover): Hang on, a mix of sources with nobody verifying the quality of any of them? That sounds like a recipe for disaster! Unverified theories floating around were given further validity when referred to by historians like Pliny, and contributed to the mystique that’s always enveloped Ancient Egypt. But back to the interviews, maybe others will be different.
John (narrator): Now we have heard from some of the most prominent Greek and Roman historians, but what did other Greek historians like Diodorus Siculus think of the Pyramids?
Alex (Diodorus): The Egyptian Pyramids are a true masterpiece. Their size and craftsmanship “fill the beholder with wonder and astonishment.”. Herodotus’s theory is truly impossible because cranes were not invented at the time the pyramids were built, therefore, could not have been used to move the stones into place. I believe that mounds of sand were used as ramps to move the great stones up the Pyramids. 360,000 men were employed in the erection of the Great Pyramid over the span of 20 years. There is no trace remaining of their construction “so that they do not have the appearance of being the slow handiwork of men but look like a sudden creation, as though they had been made by some god and set down in the surrounding sand.”.
John (Narrator): Were the Romans as amazed by the pyramids as their precursing visitors? Let’s hear from Julius Sextus Frontinus first.
Sid (Frontinus): Not to brag, but I was the mastermind behind the incredible aqueducts system of Rome, something that can only be described as “indispensable”. By contrast, these Egyptian pyramids are idle and useless! Sure I’m an expert in materials and could have theorized about how these massive structures were created, but I choose not to engage in this tomfoolery.
John (Narrator): Other Romans allowed themselves to engage in the admiration of these gargantuan creations, like the historians Ammianus Marcellinus and Tacitus.
Sid (Ammianus)- My dear Julius, you are sorely mistaken. While most Roman philosophers like yourself and the great Pliny himself found the pyramids rather pointless, pun not intended, there were a select few of us fascinated by them and I, Ammianus Marcellinus, a soldier turned historian, was one of them. I love how Tacitus, a politician who wrote about Egyptian history put it, saying the pyramids were “mountain” like buildings, built on “almost impassable sands”. I couldn’t agree more, even saying that they were one of the seven wonders of the world, and that human labor has never produced anything this high and mighty before. I firmly agree with Herodotus’s theories about their creation, we shouldn’t be as quick to dismiss the Greeks!
John (Narrator): Similar attitudes were also reflected in the Roman kings and artists. Here’s Gaius Cestius, a Roman emperor sharing his opinions.
Sid (Cestius): Historians and philosophers have dominated the discourse about the construction of the pyramids through the years, when in fact it should be the emperors and the Roman public. My predecessor Caesar and successor Hadrian were amazed by the pyramids, and as was I, even building my tomb inside a pyramid! Just the other day, I read an incredible poem by the Roman poet Horace, who uses the difficulty involved in the construction of the pyramids, but the incredible result achieved, as a metaphor for the process of writing poems and the resultant invaluable contribution to the arts. The vast amount of labor and planning involved in their construction, something I experienced personally by building a pyramid to house my body, makes me appreciate them even more.
Alex (Voiceover)- A Roman culture split on their views of the pyramids and how they were constructed makes for a very interesting case on their influence on orientalist thought. People like Pliny or Frontinus who didn’t create their own theories on the construction of the pyramids, dismissing them before truly understanding them, embody a pillar of orientalism- how the academic study of countries in the East is considered secondary to that of the West. However, even the emperors and historians who were obsessed with the pyramids were guilty of this, treating the study of the pyramids as a hobby rather than an intellectual pursuit.
John (Narrator): Yes! As we’ve seen the Greeks and Romans generated varying theories on the construction of the pyramids that created a cloud of uncertainty and occultism in the minds of the Greek and Roman readers who could not visit Egypt themselves. Shockingly, some of these theories have found their place even today, despite our improved knowledge and technology!
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Wheeler: Further in the future, after the French and British invasions of Egypt and the development of Archaeology as a discipline, Western science began to create some accurate theories about the pyramids; however, we also saw some more unqualified theorists giving their two cents, often attributing the construction of the Egyptian pyramids to outsiders as opposed to the Ancient Egyptians themselves.
Alex (Narrator): What are some examples of this?
Wheeler: For starters, in 1882, a man named Ignatius Donnelly wrote a book called “Atlantis: The Antediluvian World” in which he claimed that after the Lost City of Atlantis sank into the ocean, the Atlanteans migrated to Egypt and built the pyramids with their superior technologies.
Alex (Narrator): Sounds interesting. What were his qualifications to propose this theory?
Wheeler: That’s the thing – he had none. He was an American Congressman and was well known for his fringe conspiracies, but he had no actual scientific evidence for this theory. Unqualified people spreading misinformation wasn’t an uncommon occurrence around this time, either. In a 16th-century sketch from Flemish artist Maarten de Vos we see an even more exaggerated example of this. The image, titled “The Pyramids of Egypt,” depicts a mystical scene of royalty admiring the pyramids while men work at their feet carving blocks of stone. The Pyramids themselves are shown in a completely inaccurate manner, with incorrect proportions, entryways and arches that don’t exist, and even carvings on the sides and busts of people on the tops. Upon closer inspection, we see more Roman monuments that don’t actually exist in Egypt littering the background of the sketch – and there is even some sort of mysterious flying creature soaring through the sky. The royal figures are pictured in traditional Roman garments, and the Latin caption at the bottom of the image reads, “these things keep the eyes of those who have come to them for ages;” perhaps the juxtaposition of the Romans at the forefront of the image and the workers at their feet suggests that the pyramids were constructed for the marvel of the ‘superior’ Westerners.
Alex (Narrator): Surely no one took that drawing seriously though.
Wheeler: Though Maarten may not have been an Archaeologist, he was a well known historical painter of the time, so it is safe to assume that people may have trusted his depiction of Egypt. And this image was widespread, too – in 1614, Dutch printmaker Magdalena van de Passe made various prints of the sketch and distributed them. The one we looked at was at the Rhode Island School of Design Museum in Providence, Rhode Island. Similarly, because Ignatius Donnelly was such a public figure, his book was well published and reached a wide audience. Though these ideas may seem outlandish to a modern audience, they reached a lot of people, and definitely contributed to a wide Orientalist perception of Ancient Egypt, depicting it as a mystical and magical place and asserting Western dominance over it.
Alex (Narrator): Where did these thoughts even originate from?
Sid: In the Roman period, we saw the start of Egyptomania, and a resultant array of theories about the construction of the pyramids. A prominent example includes the ideas from the followers of Hermeticism. This ideology had a cult following and believed that a mythological ancient sage and demigod called Hermes Trismegistus founded the cult. They thought that he had created a system of secret knowledge hundreds of years before Romans entered Egypt and saw that there would be an apocalyptic event sometime in the future. As a result, this demigod built the pyramids to hide his knowledge deep inside them, so that future followers of the cult would be able to find it. While this sounds ridiculous, this was one of many cults at the time, and Hermeticism is only this well known because classic Christian thought criticized it, keeping it in the public eye.
Alex (Narrator): Did the association of pyramids and religion only come from cults like hermetic ones or were there others who thought similarly?
Sid: The lack of knowledge about the pyramids construction often made people resort to religion as a way of explaining them. A prominent example can be seen in an extract from Flavius Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews book two. Josephus was a military leader, but was also a respected scholar and historian. Surprisingly, despite how well read he was, he believed that the Egyptians were lazy people who could never build the pyramids themselves, and hence forced Jewish slaves to do it for them. This theory has now been debunked, but is a prime example of a key trope of orientalism- that the orient was full of barbaric and backwards societies, with cruel practices.
Wheeler: The theories equating the construction of the Pyramids to outsiders was not only common in Western Culture, but in Islamic Tradition as well. One legend accounts the construction of the Pyramids to two Yemenite Kings. These kings conquered Egypt and later built the Pyramids after having a dream foretelling disaster. Many Islamic Traditions and Legends claim that the Pyramids were built anticipating large natural disasters. These theories are now viewed as fairy tales; however, they were once received as truth and further portrayed the idea that Egyptians were lesser and could not have built the Great Pyramids by their own might.
Alex (Narrator): Well, those theories seem very outdated. They can’t still be relevant today.
John: Even in our current day, there are some influential figures that hold pretty questionable beliefs as to how the pyramids were constructed. For example, former presidential candidate, Ben Carson, strongly believed that Joseph built the pyramids to store grain, referring to the Old Testament story of Joseph.
Another well-educated and influential person is Elon Musk, as he tweeted: “Aliens built the pyramids obv”. It was likely that he was joking, as in the following subtweets, he commented with a more plausible and archaeologically sound explanation for the pyramids. However, because Elon Musk is so influential and so many people will believe him, this tweet led to concern from Egypt’s international co-operation minister to go so far as to invite him to Egypt to see the pyramids for himself.
Additionally, if you look up “Who constructed the pyramids?” on Youtube, you will see a bunch of varying alternative theories as to how the pyramids were built. Here, we have attached a clip from the History channel’s Ancient Aliens: Secrets of the Pyramid. This full episode has amassed over 1.5 million views on Youtube alone and likely contributes to many people believing in extraterrestrial intervention in the creation of the pyramids. However, these alternative theories discredit the ancient Egyptian pyramid builders and diminish the engineering prowess, and cultural achievements of the ancient Egyptians.
So, while modern Egyptological research and science have found the most plausible explanations for the creations of the pyramids, a few questionable thinkers can still contribute to an Orientalist perspective of ancient Egypt. It is essential to approach alternative theories with a critical mindset, considering the evidence-based research conducted by scholars in the field of Egyptology in order to gain appreciation for the genuine achievements of Ancient Egypt.
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Sid (Narrator): What are some of the more plausible explanations for the construction of the pyramids that we’ve seen throughout history?
Alex: Egyptian and Muslim historians had been admiring and studying the Pyramids for hundreds of years prior to the arrival of the French in 1798. ʿAlī Mubārak was an Egyptian politician who worked towards reform and Egyptian Nationalism in the mid 1800s. Mubārak was fascinated by the history of Ancient Egypt and produced many writings on the subject. In his writings on the Pyramids, he accounts the vast previous beliefs from both Islamic and European sources on their construction and purpose. Ultimately, he seems to agree with the common Egyptological idea that the Pyramids of Giza were built by Khufu, Khafre and Menkaure. As to the process of constructing the Pyramids Mubārak does not take a distinct stand, but does refute Herodotus, claiming that the Egyptian Pharaohs responsible for the Pyramids were not cruel, but were viewed with great esteem. Although Mubārak’s writings were largely ignored by Europeans, they were widespread throughout the Islamic world and contributed heavily to the cause of Egyptian Nationalism and Independence.
Sid (Narrator): When did Western Egyptologists start to study the Pyramids more deeply?
Wheeler: Beginning in the 18th and 19th centuries, Western scientists began to make some useful mathematical observations about the pyramids. During this time, Egyptology as a field of study was coming into its own. John Gardener Wilkinson was one of the first Westerners who was qualified in the field to publish his findings about the pyramids. Wilkinson had studied in Egypt for a long time, and in 1835, he released “Topography of Thebes,” in which he expounds upon numerous groundbreaking mathematical and geological discoveries about the pyramids, including the alignment of the temples with North and South as well the quarries that the Ancient Egyptians may have taken the stone from. Similarly, in 1859, Egyptologist John Taylor discovered a correlation between the dimensions of the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza and the numerical constant Pi. He published his findings in a book called “The Great Pyramid: Why Was It Built and Who Built It,” which was received by a wide audience.
Sid (narrator): Why were these theories any more important to the public than previous conspiracies, say, Donnelly’s Atlantis theory that you spoke about earlier?
Wheeler: Well, perhaps some might have disregarded this science in favor of fringe theory, but at this time, the fields of Archaeology and Egyptology were beginning to be respected as valid academic fields in Western scientific circles. Because people like Gardener and Taylor provided valid evidence for their discoveries, they were often taken more seriously. This helped serve to “demystify” Egypt a little, as many began to accept that it wasn’t magic that built the pyramids but the mathematical and scientific prowess of the Ancient Egyptians.
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John: Recently, science-based theories have provided the most plausible explanation as to how the pyramids were constructed, which serve to debunk a long held mystery of the pyramids.
Wheeler (Narrator): Really? How so?
John: One of the key foundations for pyramid construction is the use of water, more specifically the Nile River. A long-held area of confusion and inquiry has been how the transportation of tons of materials was possible with the limited technologies of the time. However, a recent research paper has provided valuable insight in this area. Research conducted by Sheisha et. Al concluded that Old Kingdom pyramid constructors used the river environment of the Nile and its floods to exploit former parts of the Nile to move the tons of limestone and granite required to build the pyramids. By studying fluctuations in water levels throughout the past 8000 years, Sheisha et. al’s research can be used to support a long held theory, called the fluvial-port hypothesis. This hypothesis proposed that pyramid engineers used the annual Nile flooding like a hydraulic lift, bringing the higher water levels to the base of the Giza plateau to transport supplies and building materials directly to the pyramid site.
Wheeler (Narrator): How else was water used in the construction of the pyramids?
John: Another vital use for water explains how a large work force could have moved massive objects. At its base, the Giza pyramid was built with blocks with dimensions of 1.0 m × 2.5 m x 1.0 — 1.5 m high and weighing a staggering 6.5 — 10 tons. Ancient Egyptian evidence suggests that the blocks were first levered onto wooden sleds and then hauled up ramps made of sand. However, dry sand tends to pile up in front of a ramp which increases friction until the sled is nearly impossible to pull. This issue is eliminated when dealing with wet sand. A group of physicists experimentally tested that the friction on sand is greatly reduced by the addition of an ideal amount of water.
Wheeler (Narrator): Okay, this is a non-Egyptologist perspective; what do Egyptologists say about this theory?
Alex: Dows Dunham, a former Egyptologist at Harvard University, proposed a similar theory in his 1965 paper, Building an Egyptian Pyramid. In creating a model of the Egyptian pyramids, they appeared to be carrying jars of water for the pyramid builders to drink or for wetting down the timbers to reduce friction.
So, from both an Egyptologist perspective and science backed perspective, the use of water to reduce friction was not only feasible in ancient times but also essential in transporting heavy materials up ramps. Using modern methods of science and research models, scientists are able to clarify the often misheld conceptions for how the transportation of materials was organized.
Wheeler (Narrator): Okay, that explains how they got the materials to the pyramid site, but what other techniques did they use to build it?
John: First of all, completing such a large project could not have been achieved without proper organization and extensive preparation. Evidence has been found to support the existence of a well-organized team as a pictorial representation from the tomb of the royal architect Senedjem-jb Inti (5th Dynasty) shows that the architect was in charge of planning a pyramid complex. Furthermore the discovery of Deir el-Medina, a workmen’s village which housed artisans and craftsmen who worked on the tombs in the Valley of the Kings during Middle Kingdoms into the New Kingdom, demonstrates the existence of well structured and organized systems for completing large scale projects in ancient Egypt.
Additionally, scientists have proposed that the construction of the pyramids actively involved the use of ramps and rollers. Using archaeologically attested evidence of the stepped core of the pyramids, archaeologists and Egyptologists deduced that ramps were used with their slope adjusted for the transport method chosen for the respective materials. While this evidence was used to explain the Step Pyramids from the Old Kingdom, other studies have found the use of ramps in constructing other pyramids like the Great Pyramid of Giza.
For example, in Stephen Brichieri-Colombi’s research, Brichieri-Colombi found the ideal configuration of spiral ramps was a spiral ramp extended tangential to the pyramid. This configuration is found to be feasible by ancient Egyptians and endorses previous approaches by other archaeologists.
Alex: However, while these scientific theories that involve physics, math and geology have western scientific backing and are plausible explanations for the construction of the pyramids, it is important to keep note that most of these scholars are scientists in other fields and not Egyptologists and may not be necessarily following the best Egyptological practices. For this reason, it is vital to explore how archaeological evidence supports these theories. The fundamental finding that supports all of this contemporary research is the Wadi el-Jarf Papyri.
Wheeler: What is the Wadi el-Jarf Papyri?
Alex: The Wadi el-Jarf Papyri was discovered by Pierre Tallet, a famous French Egyptologist. It was a papyrus written in hieroglyphics by workers who built the Great Pyramid of Giza. Among the papyri was the journal of an inspector named Merer, which provided a detailed account of the daily life and work of ancient Egyptians during the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza. This papyrus contains information about the transportation of limestone blocks to the pyramid site, the construction of a harbor at the site, and the daily activities of Merer and his team. Despite the texts being in separate fragments, they are exceptionally valuable and are a testimony to the construction of the pyramids. Using the diary, researchers were able to base and guide their current research in the field of pyramid construction.
John: Modern research not only demystifies the construction of the pyramids but also challenges outdated perspectives rooted in orientalism, promoting a more informed and respectful appreciation of the achievements of the ancient Egyptians. As explained earlier, many of these techniques and technologies required decades of engineering and incredibly large workforces, which only speaks to how sophisticated and advanced ancient Egyptian society was. By providing more accurate explanations for the pyramids’ creation, we are able to further appreciate Ancient Egyptian society.
Conclusion:
Alex: Well, there have been a lot of theories about how the Pyramids were built. I can see why so many people nowadays have such crazy beliefs about the Pyramids.
Sid: Yeah, all of the different theories have caused great confusion and false understandings of Egypt throughout history.
John: For the longest time I thought the Pyramids were built by aliens!
Alex: Wheeler, do you want to summarize what we learned today?
Wheeler: Yeah, throughout history, visitors to Egypt have been amazed by the Pyramids of Giza. Their theories about their construction have further contributed to the western mystification and orientalist perspectives of Ancient Egypt, establishing a widespread flawed understanding of Egypt that persists even today.
Alex: As we look at other sources on the history of ancient Egypt and the pyramids, it is important to understand the effects these theories have on modern Egypt and the true history of Ancient Egypt. Additionally, we must remember that the ancient Egyptians were real people and we must strive to honor their legacy and achievements.
John: Thank you for listening to this episode of Now as Then.
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This podcast aims to explore the intimate connections between divinity and the Nile during three specific time periods: that of Ancient Egypt, Greco-Roman exploration of Egypt, and the Renaissance into the Enlightenment Era. Through primary and secondary source research, it is evident that Ancient Egyptians turned to religion to explain the power and importance of the Nile in everyday life. By creating a sort of godly notion associated with the Nile, this divine allure and mythological lore surrounding the river drew in scholars, conquerors, and tourists to come to Egypt and explore the mysteries which it had to offer. Upon the arrival of foreigners in Egypt, the godly ideas associated with the Nile were then perpetuated through scholarly writings by the visitors which were brought back to their homelands. Thus, as a result, the association of the Nile with divinity permeated into foreign societies in order to provide an explanation for their lack of knowledge surrounding the patterns of the river.
Hosted by:
Maria de Souza, Undergraduate, BrownHelen Primis, Undergraduate, Brown
Lainey Lynott, Undergraduate, BrownAlso featuring:
Karen Bouchard,
Librarian,
Archaeology and the Ancient World,
Brown University
Transcript:Segment 1: Introduction (0:00 – 1:00)
Lainey: intro music Hello everyone and welcome to season 3 episode 4 of Now As Then! Today we are going to be diving into the Nile River and discussing the perceptions and associations of the Nile throughout time. The Nile’s impacts on ancient Egyptian society and other civilizations throughout the globe have been profound, so let’s get right into it! We are coming to you now from the AV Room of the Rockefeller Library at Brown University, my name is Lainey Lynott.
Helen:I’m Helen Primis
Maria:And I’m Maria Souza
Lainey: We’re all first years at Brown University aiming to explore the idea of how Ancient Egyptians turned to religion to explain the power and importance of the Nile in everyday life. Helen: During our research, we discovered that the divine allure of the Nile drew in scholars, conquerors, and tourists alike to explore ancient Egypt.
Maria: These visitors to Egypt then continued to perpetuate the godly ideas associated with the Nile in their own societies in order to provide an explanation for their lack of knowledge surrounding the patterns of the river. *trumpets
Segment 2: Ancient Egyptian Perspective (1:05 – 5:16)
Maria: To start off, how exactly did the Ancient Egyptians interact with the Nile?
Lainey: Well, daily life in Egypt was deeply intertwined with the surrounding environment. And the importance of the environment in Ancient Egypt was manifested in the plethora of excavated religious objects, songs, prayers, and sculptures that celebrated the environment which enabled the Egyptian empire to thrive over millennia.
Helen: Yes, and the case is no different for the Nile – if anything it was the most celebrated aspect of the Egyptian environment. Since the predynastic period, the Nile served as the main source of water and food to feed the Ancient Egyptian population.
Maria: The Nile had an annual inundation cycle during the summer caused by the heavy rainfall rain noisesin the Ethiopian highlands. During the flood, the river levels would rise and water the land of Egypt.
Lainey: In the book, “Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession and Fantasy,” Ronald Fritze, an American historian, writes about how Egyptians referred to their homeland as Kmt, translating to “the black land,” after the dark soil that nurtured their civilization.
Helen: Each year, the inundation was a long awaited moment for most of the population, as the empire’s farming population needed the flood to water the soil so their crops would grow. And as a way to highlight the Nile’s importance in Egyptian society, the god Hapi was originated, the god that personified the inundation of the Nile each year.
Maria: In Egyptian Art, Hapi is illustrated as having a bulky, androgynous figure. Unlike other gods, Hapi has a big and visible belly and large breasts.
Lainey: Yes, and they were specifically portrayed in a more feminine light to represent the fertility that the Nile offered from the inundation. Since the Nile was imperative to Egyptian life, Hapi was sighted as one of the most important Egyptian gods amongst Ancient Egyptians.
Maria: Hapi was also often referred to as the unifier of Lower and Upper Egypt. We looked at a sunk relief from the Great Temple at Abul Simbel on the West Bank of the Nile River to help illustrate Hapi’s prevalence in Egyptian society.
Helen: This temple was erected for the worship of Pharaoh Ramesses II and the sunk relief has Hapi portrayed twice. On the left side we see him holding a lotus flower, the symbol for Upper Egypt, and then on the right holding stems of a Papyrus, the symbol for Lower Egypt.
Lainey: Both Hapis are holding what is called a sema-tawy, which includes two tied plants meant to represent the eternal unification of both Lower and Upper Egypt.
Helen: And aside from representing Hapi in art pieces and texts, Ancient Egyptians also conducted prayers, like the Hymn of the Nile, where they asked Hapi to bless them with the annual inundation: [transition to sound and more dramatic reading of the Hymn]
Maria: water noises“When you overflow, O Hapy, Sacrifice is made for you; Oxen are slaughtered for you, A great oblation is made to you, Fowl is fattened for you, Desert game snared for you, As one repays your bounty. One offers to all the gods of that which Hapy has provided, Choice incense, oxen goats, And birds in holocaust.”
Helen: It is interesting to observe in this tune/text from the Middle Kingdom the tone of despair that underlies the words of the prayer. They expressed how prosperous the Nile is to Egypt, how much they needed that prosperity in their lives, and how everyone sacrificed everything for the inundation and for it to unleash its powers over the Egyptian grounds. This showcases how people explained and understood the Nile in terms of their own religion and godly perceptions, and in this case of the ancient Egyptian civilization itself.
Lainey:At the same time the Nile was key for agriculture in Egypt, the river also served as the primary source of transportation to Ancient Egyptians. The direction of the river’s current flow and prevailing winds all favored an easy commute between different areas of Egypt, increasing communication between different people and facilitating trade.
Helen: To express this importance, Egyptians placed models of Nile river boats in the deceased person’s tomb to guarantee them transportation for eternity. The Nile was a gift that Egyptians wanted to carry with them even in the afterlife. This demonstrates the societal draw to the Nile on a religious basis, as a key aspect of ancient Egyptian religion was the afterlife.
Section 3: The Greco Roman Period: (5:20- 11:00)
Maria: Greek music To continue moving through our overarching timeline, we are now going to move from the Ancient Egyptian perspective and launch into drumroll the Greco-Roman Period!
Helen: We start our journey in around 500 BCE when Greek historian Hecataeus of Miletus embarked on his visit to Egypt. Widely considered to be the first Greek on ground in Egypt and record his findings, the true tragedy of Hecateaus of Miletus’ time in Egypt is that no copies of his findings still exist today.
Lainey: Moving on into the 450s BCE, we get our first Greek-recorded account of Egypt from Hecataeus’ successor, Herodotus. Herodotus’ compilation of writings are commonly known as The Persian Wars or The Histories. And he recounted his experiences in Egypt in Book 2 of his 9 book collection.
Maria: By sharing his works with the Greek public, Herodotus sparked an obsession with Egypt in Greece. Particularly Herodotus’ “Account of Egypt” served as the catalyst for Greek Egyptomania to take flight in Greek society and began a long line of academic, mythological, and personal writings of life in Egypt– particularly with questions and ideas surrounding the Nile.
Helen: Herodotus recounted his experience witnessing the Nile’s yearly flood during his time in Egypt. He then raised a particular mysterious idea which enthralled the Greek intellectual community: “Of the sources of the Nile no one can give an account, for the part of Libya through which it flows is uninhabited and desert.” trumpets
Lainey: Within Greek mythology, potamoi are specific river gods that correlate to given rivers around the world; and as Egyptomania became popularized in Greek society, Nilus emerged as the divine representative for the Nile in Greek religious practices.
Helen: And then there are also naiads (which can be equated to the female versions of potamoi) that were also used to symbolize the inexplicable habits and actions of water, and the naiad associated with the Nile was Caliadne, a daughter of Nilus.
Maria: As we mentioned before, Hapi was the Egyptian god responsible for the inundation of the Nile each year. In Greek mythology, we see the Greeks use Nilus’ divine power as the explanation for the Nile’s flood each year just as the Egyptians did with Hapi.
Helen: And Caliadne then was associated with the Nile’s fertile nature and how the flood each year brought the Egyptians a plethora of natural resources. We now see a sort of pattern between the two societies – the Greeks and the Egyptians – using gods to explain the habits of the Nile.
Lainey: Moving further on into the Greco-Roman era, we now arrive at the Alexander the Great Era of Hellenistic Egyptomania. cheers and applause
Helen:And Alexander was a Grade A example of falling susceptible to the Egyptomania perpetuated by his Greek predecessors. The writings and lore surrounding Ancient Egypt preached by Greek intellectuals preceding Alexander led him to want to explore and conquer Egypt in hopes of finding the origin of the Nile.
Lainey: Yes exactly, so Alexander sent an expedition in 332 BCE to follow the length of the Nile and try to discover the origin and other realities behind some myths associated with the river that became common lore in European societies.
Maria: Then further compounding on the pattern of publishing writings for the public about the divine trials and tribulations of Greco-Roman adventures in Egypt, Alexander the Great’s time and conquest of Egypt was closely recounted by a plethora of scholars, including Greek historians Plutarch and Diodorus.
Helen: In Diodorus’ Library of History, which was published in the 45-35 BCE range, he talks about Alexander the Great’s conquest of the Nile and his mission to dispel the mythology surrounding the Nile. Then in Plutarch’s Moralia published in the mid-1st century AD, we can see Plutarch project a sort of “savior complex” of sorts onto Alexander’s role as a “truth finder” amidst the lore surrounding Egypt.
Lainey: Now to round out this era of Greco-Roman Egyptomania and the Nile, we are going to talk a bit more in depth about the Roman take on the Nile. Roman music In Plutarch’s Moralia, he had a whole book dedicated to the overlap between Greek and Roman mythology, including the permeation of Nilus into Roman mythology.
Maria:We see this manifested in Roman artwork in particular; for example, a massive, larger than life statue was found in Rome in an ancient Temple of Isis in the 16th century, but dated it back to sometime in the 2nd-4th century.
Helen: This statue, known as “The Vatican Nile,” portrays the river as a godly figure in a human form, which represents how the Nile itself had some semblance of agency and intelligence as a person would. And given that the statue was found in a temple of Isis in Rome, and that this is a deification of the Nile, this statue is truly the epitome of the intersection between Roman Egyptomania and the Nile being associated with divinity.
Lainey: This association we see of the Nile with divinity in the Roman period comes from similar ideas found during the Hellenistic, Greek, and Egyptian periods of Egyptopmania which preceded it – and it did not stop here.
Maria: In the post Greco-Roman period, including the Renaissance, Enlightenment, and modern-era, we consistently discovered similar ties between the river and godly intervention as more and more people explored the allure of Egypt. Renaissance music
Section 4: Renaissance/Enlightenment/Post-Greco-Roman Era: (11:00-20:30)
Lainey: Let’s jump forward in time once again. As Helen mentioned earlier, finding the source of the Nile piqued the interest of many scholars. Well, in the nineteenth century, the sources of the Nile were actually discovered.
Maria: Yes, exactly! Two sections of the Nile were identified as sources by a British explorer named John Hanning Speke in 1863; these were called the Blue Nile and the White Nile.
Helen: And this discovery of the Nile took away a bit of the mystery surrounding it. But, it did open the door for even more divine claims to be made in relation to the river. The sources of the Nile were described as religious, filled with spirits sent from heavenly gods during the 19th century, by British explorers.
Maria: One specific source of the Blue Nile, Gish Abay, was a source of “holy water,” a divine river from heaven in Egypt and Ethiopia. Christians would actually pray to the flowing river and the spirits residing in that river.
Lainey: And along with Christianity, Islamic scriptures also tie religion into the Nile sources. Egyptian Muslims saw the Nile as a gift from the god, Allah, and believed that Allah could cause the Nile sources to flow.
Helen: There was actually some tension between Christians and Muslims over what religion was most dominant over the Nile, its sources, and flowing patterns. Thus, Christians and Muslims alike were drawn to the Nile to defend the upholdings of their respective divine gods in terms of placement with the Nile.
Maria:In other words, these examples prove our claim that the divinity of the Nile attracted people to the Nile. We see here both European Christians and Egyptian Muslims using godly association to explain the Nile’s patterns.
Helen: In addition, during this modern period, travel along the Nile increased. Many members of European society traveled along the Nile in order to spread the word of Christianity.
Lainey:Even before the source of the Nile was discovered, tourism along the Nile was huge around 1685 and onward. A common trip on the Nile river began in Alexandria and went through different Egyptian cities including Memphis, Thebes, through Cairo, and finally to Nubia.
Maria: This conversation brings us to our special collections object from the John Hay Library at Brown University, Cook’s Travel Handbook. Brown University’s Karen Bouchard, the Archaeology and the Ancient World specialist librarian, contextualized Cook’s Travel Book for us.
Helen: We first asked her: why are primary sources, like Cook’s traveling handbook, so crucial in research projects? What insights can they provide us that secondary sources cannot? Here’s what she had to say:
Karen Bouchard: “Well, they give you the original, right, you’re getting it right from the horse’s mouth. If you go to a secondary source, those are still very valuable because you’re getting insight from scholars who are looking at those primary sources, but you’re not getting the actual first-hand knowledge yourself. You may learn something different from looking at the primary source that you may not have picked up by reading the secondary sources, and so seeing what the actual person in the nineteenth century wrote about Egypt tells you a lot more than just looking at it through somebody else’s eyes.”
Helen: To follow up, we asked Karen about her personal comments on Cook’s Handbook. Given that it was published in the late 19th century, what sort of influence does the era have on the source, Karen?
Karen Bouchard: “Well Thomas Cook, they did tours for people so that’s how they got started. They ran tours for, kind of, middle class people. So it was kind of the first time in the Victorian era that people who weren’t rich could go on these tours and guided tours, so that’s how it started in England. They put out these handbooks kind of as publicity for their tours, but you could buy a handbook and take it with you if you went on your own as well so that you wouldn’t miss any of the sites when you went to Egypt.”
Lainey: So as Karen referenced, Thomas Cook was an Englishman who traveled around the world, recorded important tourist information, and published his accounts for others to follow if they were to explore any of the regions he had encountered.
Helen: We were actually able to examine this object hands-on at the John Hay Library, and it’s evident that this book, from its small size and organized chapters of accounts, was meant to be distributed to the public. Cook published this handbook for Egypt in 1897.
Maria: While Cook mostly explains the Egyptian monuments, canals, and ports, he also discusses biblical associations with the Nile. Cook writes about how the Nile was mentioned in Biblical Scripture and even cites specific bible chapters from Amos and Jeremiah. In these scriptures, the annual inundation of Egypt is alluded to, and Cook explains the prophecy of Isaiah in which God dries and smites the Nile in response to sin.
Lainey: This goes to show the use of religion, in this case Christianity, to explain Nile flooding as the surging and subsiding of the Nile was viewed as a result of mourning and sin. Now as I mentioned before this book was widely distributed to public populations. So it is interesting to note that Cook included biblical Nile accounts because they are unrelated to travel, which is the purpose of this book. By doing this every person who read Cook’s travel accounts, who were just reading for travel purposes, were exposed to Nile-Christian relationships.
Maria: A cycle was created from this in which biblical associations with the Nile were known and spread through travel accounts, and then more people were inspired to travel in order to experience said biblical associations.
Helen: Further than just discussion of Christian associations, Cook’s Travel Handbook also discussed actual travel along the Nile in terms of Christianity and Coptic Christianity. Cook explains his travels through Coptic Convents, villages of priests, Christian tombs, and Christian temples found along the Nile.
Lainey: Yes, for instance, Cook directly states:“the innumerable tombs, of which the Stabl Autar is the principal, are interesting from their Egyptian remains and also from their Christian associations, as being tenanted by monks and hermits.” Again, Cook draws specific attention to Christianity along the Nile for an audience that is European and Christian, increasing ties and incentive for European travel to Egypt.
Helen: Thus, European societies held firm connections between their faith and the Nile from biblical citations and exploratory accounts, increasing attention to the Nile, and causing travel up and down the Nile.
Maria: Let’s give a quick shout out to (Karen Bouchard) for helping us examine Cook’s Travel Handbook in the John Hay Library! applause Thank you so much for your help.
Lainey: As we just discussed, in this age of European exploration, literature was a main source of distributing primary information regarding the Nile River. In travel accounts, the ways in which Egypt was written about contributed to the spread of Christian association with the Nile. Consequently, European interest in the Nile grew in conjunction with these Christian associations so that people could understand why and how the river flowed in their own beliefs.
Maria: Let’s consider some more sources. In an 1854 letter from the traveler Florence Nightingale, Nightingale illustrates that he felt a desire to experience the mysterious, spiritual Nile firsthand, and hence traveled to Egypt along the Nile. He also explains experiencing a supernatural and spiritual feeling while traveling along the river.
Lainey: The portrayal of the Nile as “spiritual” reproduces the idea of the “divine Nile.” These accounts contributed to an increase in Egyptian exploration along the Nile to experience this broad sense of spirituality, which was applied to religions. Hence the draw of travelers to the Nile, to understand the Nile, was built upon the relationships between the Nile and religion.
Helen: Let’s hone back in again on Christianity because after the fifteenth century European conquest in Egypt and the spread of European Christianity with the Nile was really huge. In the Renaissance period from 1450 to 1650, the Nile was endowed with especially divine connotations.
Maria: In Renaissance literature from European travelers, the Nile was described as “Earthly paradise” and “divine creation.” Travelers were fascinated and impressed by the Nile, and they actually related it to an expression of Christian divinity.
Helen: To add onto that, many European scholars at the time, including Franciscan friar Suriano and Johann Michael Heberer directly associated the Nile with what they called “earthly paradise.” These scholars then wrote about their fascinations, spreading these wondrous associations with the public back in Renaissance Europe.
Maria: Along with general wonder, scholars at this time were intrigued by the floods of the Nile. When explaining the Nile inundation, scholar and traveler Jean de Joinville stated “Nobody knows how these inundations occur, unless it be by God’s will.”
Lainey: Thus, during this time, Christianity was used as an explanation for the patterns of the Nile in terms of flooding, proving our claim that religious allure drew people in to explore Egypt and perpetuate religious Nile concepts into their societies in order to understand the river.
Segment 5: Counter (20:30- 23:21)
Lainey: So, as we’ve discussed, the associations of the Nile to religious affiliations emphasizes the Nile’s relationships with divinity, life, and spirituality. However, there are multiple sides to this discussion, and we’ve found that in addition to the “holy” Nile perceptions which attracted travelers, the Nile also had some associations with death. gasp
Maria: During the Napoleonic Era in the eighteenth century, death was highly associated with the Nile due to the fact that the French Conquest of Egypt took place during maritime warfare. There were actually battles on the Nile during this time, and because of this many soldiers as well as Egyptian, French, and British citizens drowned in the Nile during wartime.
Helen: The traveler and scholar Vivant Devon actually wrote about his experience in Egypt during the time of the French Conquest and exemplified the deaths in the Nile during combat in attempts at battle through his writings.
Lainey: This alternate portrayal of the Nile is completely different from aspects of our claim that Nile intrigue and travel increased on the backbone of religious purposes. These darker Nile accounts don’t discredit what we’ve proven regarding the perpetuation of godly associations with the Nile for different societies, rather this demonstrates a different side of the coin representing a draw to the Nile.
Maria:To add on, while the Nile has been mostly portrayed as a blessing so far, this body of water has also been represented as frightening and destructive. Although the flooding provided the water needed to fertilize the Egyptian soil, when the river inundated beyond the expected, it washed away and destroyed everything in its wake.
Helen: To understand this flip side of the coin, we can use John Robert Huddlestun comparative study of the River Nile in Ancient Egypt and The Hebrew Bible. In religious books, the Nile was described as a violent sea with a deadly inundation cycle in this particular context. In Bible chapters of Amos, the cycle of flooding and sinking was referred to as a destructive pattern of building and torring, connecting it to effects of an Earthquake.
Lainey: In Isaiah 19:5-10, the river is shown to be a destroyer of temples and explicitly states that everything that was previously sown by the Nile would eventually disappear. Exodus shares how the River turned into blood and thus portraying it as part of the plague against Egypt (Exod 7:14-25).
Helen: We bring this information to light because religion is a multifaceted concept. Most of what we have found highlights positive perspectives on the Nile and the ways in which divinity drew people in. But at the same time, more negative, dangerous aspects of divinity existed and created a sense of caution towards the Nile throughout time. And the caution toward the Nile was merited given just how powerful the river was. Still, this caution caused an increase in attention to the Nile, supporting our notion that generally speaking, whether positive or negative, religion proliferated the understanding of the Nile in multiple societies. trumpets
Segment 6: Conclusion (23:24 – 24:49)
Maria: So, what’s the point of what we’re getting at? Why exactly do we care about the divine nature of the Nile?
Helen: As we discussed in the very beginning of this podcast, the Nile was the very lifeblood of Egypt. To pay respect to and try and explain the patterns of the Nile, the Egyptians turned to divinity.
Lainey: But what is really interesting and important about the divine association with the Nile was how it successfully made its way into other powerful dynasties outside of Egypt.
Maria: Yes, exactly, it was a way in which other intellectuals and historians from foreign empires paid a mutual respect to the empire which the Egyptians built around the miraculous patterns of the Nile.
Lainey: We’ve had so much fun in the process of making this podcast and we hope that you had fun over the last 30 minutes with us.
Helen: Thank you so much to everyone who has helped make this episode possible: special shoutout to our wonderful professor Dr. Robyn Price for her work in this seminar, all of the librarians at Brown University who have helped us put this episode together including Laura Stokes, Izzy Ulasz, and Karen Bouchard, and then lastly Director of Museum Academic Programming at RISD Art Museum, Alexandra Poterack.
Lainey: This has been Lainey,
Helen: Helen,
Maria: And Maria, and thank you for listening to Now As Then. outro music
ExhibitsExhibit A:
Relief of Hapi from the Great Temple at Abu Simbel. (c.1279-1213 BCE). From the colossal statues of Ramesses II, Abu Simbel, Egypt. Link.
Exhibit B:
Model of a River Boat. (c.2046-1794 BCE). Art Institute of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, United States. Link.
Exhibit C:
Dore, Gustave. “The Child Moses on the Nile.” Exodus 2:1-4, illustration from Dore’s ‘The Holy Bible’, engraved by H.Pisan. 1866. The Bridgeman Art Library. https://search.credoreference.com/articles/Qm9va0FydGljbGU6MzI0NTgxMA==
Exhibit D:
Fragment with Personifications of Victory and the Nile. (6th Century). Byzantine. Object number: 1971.49.1. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, New York. Link.
Exhibit E
Swetnam-Burland, Molly. Egypt Embodied: The Vatican Nile. American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 113. The University of Chicago Press, 2009, pp. 439-457, Link .
Works CitedBlanford Edward, Amelia Ann. “A Thousand Miles up the Nile.” London, George Routledge and Sons, 1889, Gale Primary Sources, Link.
Denon, Vivant. Travels in Upper and Lower Egypt, during the campaigns of General Bonaparte. 1802. F. Cundee, for B. Crosby and Co. (London), Volume 1, Gale Primary Sources, Link.
Diodorus. Library of History: Vol 1 and Vol 17. Loeb Classical Library Ebook, (Link).
Erlikh, Ḥagai and Israel Gershoni. The Nile: Histories, Cultures, and Myths. 2000. Boulder, Lynne Rienner Publishers, eBook, EbscoHost, Link.
Firew, Gedef Abawa and Terje Oestigaard. The Source of the Blue Nile: Water Rituals and Traditions in the Lake Tana Region. 2014. Cambridge Scholars Publishing, eBook, Google Books, Link.
Fritze, Ronald H.. Egyptomania : A History of Fascination, Obsession and Fantasy. Reaktion Books, 2016, pp. 71-107. ProQuest Ebook, Link.
Hard, Robin. The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology: Eighth Edition. Taylor and Francis Group, 2020, Ebook, Link.
Herodotus. The Persian Wars: Book 2 (An Account of Egypt). Translated by George Rawlinson. Introduction by Francis R. B. Godolphin. New York: Modern Library, 1947. Link.
John Robert Huddlestun. Who is this that Rises like the Nile? A Comparative Study of the River Nile in Ancient Egypt and the Hebrew Bible. University of Michigan ProQuest (1996). Dissertations Publishing. Link.
Lurker, Manfred. The Routledge Dictionary of Gods, Goddesses, Devils, and Demons. Taylor and Francis Group, 1984, ProQuest Ebook, Link.
Minutoli, Wolfradine. Women travelers on the Nile.1827. Cairo: The American University in Cairo Press, Gale Primary Sources, Link.
Moorehead, Alan. The White Nile. 1960. Harper and Brothers Publishers, 1960.
Nightingale, Florence. Letters From Egypt. 1854. Printed by A. & G. A. Spottiswoode (London), Gale Primary Sources, Link.
Oestigaard, Terje. The Religious Nile : Water, Ritual and Society since Ancient Egypt, I. B. Tauris & Company, ProQuest EBook, 2018, Link.
Oliver J. Thatcher. Vol. I: The Ancient World. Milwaukee University Research Extension Co., 1907, pp. 79-83, Link.
Peck, W. (2013). Transportation. In The Material World of Ancient Egypt (pp. 162-170).
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/CBO9781139034296.014. Link.
Plutarch. Moralia: Parallels between Greek and Roman Stories, On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander the Great, and Isis and Osiris. Loeb Classical Library Ebook, Link.
Seneca the Younger. Natural Questions. Loeb Classical Library Ebook, Link.
Swetnam-Burland, Molly. Egypt Embodied: The Vatican Nile. American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 113. The University of Chicago Press, 2009, pp. 439-457, Link .
Thomas Cook (firm). Cook’s Tourists’ Handbook for Egypt, the Nile, and the Desert. T. Cook & Son, 1897.
Vasunia, Phiroze. The Gift of the Nile : Hellenizing Egypt from Aeschylus to Alexander. Berkeley: University of California Press, 2001, Ebook, Link.
Wilkinson, Richard, H. The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. Thames & Hudson, 2017.
Bell, B. (1971). The Dark Ages in Ancient History. I. The First Dark Age in Egypt. American Journal of Archaeology, 75(1), 1–26. https://doi.org/10.2307/503678
Lichtheim, M. (Ed.). (2019). Two Pseudepigrapha. In Ancient Egyptian Literature (1st ed., pp. 691–705). University of California Press. https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctvqc6j1s.41 Lichtheim, M. (Ed.). (2019). Songs and Hymns. In Ancient Egyptian Literature (1st ed., pp. 240–259). University of California Press. https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctvqc6j1s.19
Cleopatra has become a captivating figure throughout the world. Yet, her depiction in the media may not be representative of who she truly was. From Western Asia to Ancient Egypt, these views deserve the same respect as the ones dominated by Europe. In this podcast, we’ll use these depictions to present a more accurate portrayal of Cleopatra and promote future integration.
Hosted by:
Cuddy Steadman, Undergraduate, BrownBrendan Rathier, Undergraduate, BrownJulia Xia, Undergraduate, BrownAlso featuring:
Dr. Kerri Lorigan, Associate Professor Langston University
TranscriptSegment 1: Introduction (0:00)
Brendan: When you think of Egypt, what first comes to mind?
Cuddy: Pyramids?
Julia: Mummies?
Brendan: King Tut?
Brendan: While all of these are important symbols, there’s no way you forgot about one of the most famous Egyptian figures: Cleopatra. Constantly referenced throughout modern culture and media, the Last Queen of Egypt has captivated the interests of so many people today. Yet, our perception has not always been this way. In fact, immediately after her death, it might have been the complete opposite.
Intro Music
Brendan: Hi, my name is Brendan Rathier…
Cuddy: My name is Cuddy Steadman…
Julia: And my name is Julia Xia…
Brendan: And in this podcast, we’re going to discuss, debunk, and debate some of the largest topics surrounding Cleopatra. From famous Roman philosophers to Shakespeare’s grand plays, we’ll discuss how the queen’s legacy has changed beyond her death.
Julia: We’ll also be joined by Dr. Kerri Lorigan, an Associate Professor at Langston University. With a specialty in Roman Egyptology, Dr. Lorigan will offer insight into these different depictions and how we should be viewing this famous figure.
Cuddy: Finally, we hope to dissect some issues still contested today: How did Cleopatra die? What was her skin color? All of these questions and more will be answered in “Now as Then” Episode 3.2: Cleopatra.
Intro Music
Segment 2: Cleopatra Intro & Early Reception (1:44)
Brendan: There’s no better way to introduce Cleopatra than by starting at the very beginning. Born around 69 BCE to Ptolemy XII, she served as the last active ruler of the Ptolemaic Kingdom in Egypt. Following her father’s death, Cleopatra ascended to the throne alongside her younger brother and husband Ptolemy XIII. However, after a power struggle erupted between the two rulers, Cleopatra was exiled to Syria.
Julia: That’s far from the end of her though! She later returned to Alexandria with an army and gained the support of Julius Caesar, who had invaded Egypt to take over his rival Pompey, and with his support, she regained power in Egypt. At the same time, Cleopatra had an open affair with Caesar and gave birth to their child, Caesarion. This relationship would continue until Caesar’s assassination in 44 BC. At this time, she saw to it that her new brother-husband was also killed.
Cuddy: That’s certainly a lot of death. But isn’t there more to the story?
Brendan: You’re certainly right Cuddy! While Caesar and Cleopatra were a popular pair, the most famous relationship was between her and Marc Antony. After Antony visited Egypt around 41 BCE for military aid, the two fell in love with one another and had three children. This affair angered Caesar’s heir Octavian, who had arranged for Marc Antony to marry his sister instead. As such, Octavian would wage this propaganda war against the couple and cited Cleopatra’s status as a woman and foreigner who wanted Roman power.
Cuddy: Wow, so even when she was alive, Cleopatra’s perception was constantly distorted against her.
Brendan: Yeah, it really is depressing… Unfortunately, this rivalry between the two rulers would take an even worse turn at the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE. After the fight, Cleopatra’s entire fleet was defeated by Rome, causing them to escape to Alexandria. From here, the fighting continued with Octavian invading Egypt directly. Finally, after falsely hearing that Cleopatra had died, Marc Antony committed suicide in 30 BCE. Soon later, Cleopatra took her own life as well rather than serving as a captive to Octavian. So, amidst a decade of betrayal and love, Cleopatra’s death marked the end of Egyptian rule in Egypt.
Julia: That’s true… While this engaging story has been recited throughout history, it is only one perspective on the queen. Dominated by Western tropes, this standard narrative focuses on dramatization, romance, and power. There are so many aspects of her life that are absent from this story. However, as it is the victors that write history, most of the sources we do have about Cleopatra are not Egyptian, but rather Roman and Greek. Ranging from philosophers to politicians, these powerful figures have rewritten Cleopatra’s legacy to support their agendas. So, let’s focus on a few of these depictions and see how they compare. Specifically, we’ll focus on their depiction of Cleopatra’s death and some of her actions beforehand. Let’s get to it! Wanna start Cuddy?
Cuddy: Sure! Two of the Romans who wrote about Cleopatra were Plutarch and Cassius Dio, and both of their depictions of the queen follow a similar pattern. In the moments leading up to her death, the two cite Cleopatra’s charisma and cleverness as key attributes. In fact, during her capture by Octavian, both writers illustrate such traits in action. Because Octavian wished to keep Cleopatra alive to showcase his success to Rome, the queen was determined to stop herself from ever leaving Egypt.
Julia At first, she used her charisma to plead with Octavian to let her die. But, after gaining little progress, she reversed her stance and made it appear as if she was eager to live. This approach had much more success, as Octavian loosened restrictions on Cleopatra.
Cuddy: Exactly! According to the two Romans, this then allowed the queen to lock herself in a room with two servants, dress herself in royal attire, and give herself a noble death. So, in the final moments of her life, Plutarch and Cassius Dio give her some dignity.
Julia: Yeah at least they showed some respect by acknowledging her devotion to Egypt. Still, the scene is tainted with tropes of sexuality and slyness. What’s worse, is that these initial transcriptions have set the basic understanding of Cleopatra today.
Brendan: OK, so after hearing all of these stories. You’re probably asking, how did Cleopatra really die? Well, the answer is: we don’t know! While the works by Plutarch and Cassius Dio, (and other Roman authors) go into speculation, there isn’t a conclusive answer. Some say that she killed herself with a poisonous dagger, while others cite an apsis snake being the prime conspirator. Even more dramatized depictions speculate that she was bitten in the butt or breast (I believe that’s the one Octavian supported). Let’s ask Dr. Lorigan what she thinks:
Dr. Lorigan (6:44-7:46): She’s a very strong and ambitious woman and I don’t feel like she is the type of woman to give up and poison herself. I think that probably Octavian had her murdered. He controlled the narrative about her death, so these things about the snakebite come actually out in his memoirs after he’s made himself Augustus. He pushes the idea that she got bitten by a snake. But we know that after he found her and she was dead, he had her son Caesarion hunted down: he was the son of Caesar. So now, he had removed all of the threats to the throne. So probably the most credible theory is that he had her killed because honestly, this woman who had fought so hard (she murdered her younger brother, she got married to him and then married her other brother, she dealt with Caesar, she dealt with Marc Antony) to keep Egypt and fight for her position. I just don’t see her as a woman that could’ve committed suicide.
Brendan: What a hot take huh? In addition to Dr. Lorigan, Ana Rosso from the International Society of the History of Medicine thoroughly researched this topic too. In her report about Cleopatra’s death, she determined that the viper would be the most likely snake to kill her as it is pain-free and easily concealable.,
Cuddy: That’s true, but even though there is speculation, there is no way for us to know exactly how she died.
Julia: I think it’s unfortunate that the earliest accounts of Cleopatra’s death are once again controlled by non-Egyptians. So many of these writers started the theories we know today. It is really important that we’re aware of their motives when consuming Ancient Egyptian content. We also need to start introducing sources beyond the Western Hemisphere. While the Romans may refute it, being bit in the breast is far from the queen’s legacy.
Brendan: Fortunately, we do have some sources from Egypt about Cleopatra’s life, and they represent a different side of her. For example, an Egyptian hieroglyph inscribed in stone around 51 BCE cites Cleopatra as a “goddess who loves her father”. Additionally, in the Temple of Dendera, images on the walls depict Cleopatra standing behind her son Caesarion, who would become the next heir to Egypt. Because Hathor acts as a mother to the god Horus, which is embodied in the pharaoh, Cleopatra intentionally depicts herself as the goddess to protect and guide her son as the next ruler.,
Cuddy: You know, another unique characteristic about that is the height of the two figures. Usually, the mother is depicted as shorter than the son. But, in this illustration, Cleopatra is the same height as Caesarion, showing her dominance in the relationship. These two depictions show a different side of Cleopatra: while Plutarch and Cassius Dio try to degrade the ruler as ruthless and cynical, here we see Cleopatra as both a devoted mother and daughter. Additionally, both sources tie Cleopatra to a godly and superior status, cementing her influence throughout Ancient Egypt.
Julia: And if you were still unsure about the queen’s dominance, take a look at some Egyptian currency. While earlier coins of the Ptolemaic dynasty depict the man as the leading figure, coins minted after her death specifically showcase Cleopatra on the front and Marc Antony on the back. This could imply that Cleopatra was the more powerful figure in their relationship.
Brendan: Hopefully, after all of this, you can see that there’s more to Cleopatra than what you’ve seen in modern media. Yes, Cleopatra may have been this clever figure who captivated some very powerful men. But she was also a leader, mother, daughter, philosopher, chemist, and much more. We asked Dr. Lorigan about her thoughts on who Cleopatra was as a person, and this is what she had to say:
Dr Lorigan (10:38-11:34): So she really worked to associate herself with Egypt. Again, she did math, chemistry, and philosophy, and it’s said that she hung out with philosophers all the time, talked to them, and even published books. A lot of the research there says that people in Egypt loved her. She was a great pharaoh, she made connections with the Arab world, and she turned Egypt from basically a bankrupt country that was in a civil war to the richest country in the Mediterranean. Because she was such a shrewd businessperson. And she kept Egypt free from Roman rule. Egypt was the very last nation to fall to the Romans when they sought to take over everything. She worked very hard, and that should be her legacy, not this woman who slept with a bunch of men and got very powerful.
Brendan: Well I think Dr. Lorigan perfectly summarized Cleopatra’s true identity.But regardless of origin, her image has been constantly molded to fit different agendas. While the Romans wanted to further their dominance and authority, the Egyptians wanted to uphold her status as an amazing pharaoh. So, it’s really important to look beyond the stereotypes we see in modern media. In seconds, we’re now going to fast forward a few hundred years (focusing on the Medieval & Renaissance eras) and see how these depictions and agendas changed, how they’ve stayed the same, and if there is [sic] any differences between the East and West. Spoiler alert: there are. Cuddy, take it away!
Segment 3: Eastern vs. Western Depictions of Cleopatra (12:20)
Cuddy: Yeah, so given all the intrigue and speculation regarding Cleopatra’s life and death, it’s easy to make up stories about her life and make inaccurate cultural depictions of her. And oh boy, did Europeans do that. During the Middle Ages and Renaissance, Cleopatra as a subject of fact and fiction exploded in the Western cultural imagination.
Julia: In Elizabethan times, one of the most famous authors in English history wrote the seminal work on Cleopatra: Antony and Cleopatra, the play by Shakespeare. Lauded since its inception, this play was first performed in 1607, but the first written copy we have comes from 1623.
Cuddy: The play depicts Cleopatra as much more than the one-dimensional caricature of femininity depicted in most works of the time. Indeed, Cleopatra is widely regarded as the most complex and developed female character in all of Shakespeare’s works. She presents a multifaceted interplay between a seductive manipulator and a powerful opportunist.
Brendan: Shakespeare explores the dynamics of power and love, and how these forces intertwine in the lives of Cleopatra and Antony. Cleopatra is not just a lover; she is a queen with her own ambitions and agency. Her relationship with Antony is depicted as one of mutual passion and political alliance, rather than a one-sided affair. This portrayal reflects both an interest in Cleopatra herself and the broader Renaissance fascination with the classical world, where figures like Cleopatra were reimagined through the lens of contemporary values and ideas.
Julia: Yeah, that play has had a lasting impact on how these historical figures are perceived. It has influenced numerous artistic and literary works, and its portrayal of Cleopatra has contributed significantly to the enduring fascination with her character. Indeed, in an 1867 copy of the play we have here at the John Hay Library, the editor’s note states that “[Antony and Cleopatra] is too vast, too gorgeous, to be approached without some prostration of the understanding…We have read it again and again, and the impression which it leaves again and again is that of wonder.”
Cuddy: But people didn’t just reissue Antony and Cleopatra, and although it was certainly the most popular cultural rendition of Cleopatra up through the 19th century, it was not the only one. Another prominent depiction comes from a short story entitled “Une nuit de Cléopâtre,” by Théophile Gautier, a French writer and poet from the early to mid-19th century. This work definitely puts a lot less emphasis on, shall we say, historical accuracy.
Brendan: Absolutely, so the work begins with Cleopatra admitting to her servant that she is having a bit of an existential crisis about her rule of Egypt, and only love can rid her of her sadness. Once again, Cleopatra is shown as simply a love-obsessed ruler who is less interested in ruling a country than in her various pursuits with men. A lover arrives named Meïamoun, who admires her and her beauty. Cleopatra decides to entertain his love for the night but is drawn back to reality when Antony arrives, at which point she poisons Meïamoun, leaving him to die.
Cuddy: We got to take a look at a translation of this book that had illustrations by Paul Avril, which is a pseudonym for Édouard-Henri Avril, an erotic illustrator. Our copy was published sometime in the 1890s and was some of the most overtly sexualized content about Cleopatra from this time period. Many of the illustrations depict Cleopatra using typical Orientalist tropes, such as small clothing, belly dancing, and seductive acts. Evidently, the popular fascination with Cleopatra carried over into the objectification of women common during this time period.
Julia: Something to note about this copy is the time period during which it was written; you see, the original text comes from before the scramble for Africa when the Ottoman Eyalet of Egypt still technically ruled Egypt, but the illustrations and publication of the copy we have is from after Britain fully controlled Egypt. The illustrations reflect this, depicting Cleopatra as subservient to the outsider who comes to court her and should be a reflection of the culture surrounding Egypt during this period.
Brendan: Exactly! The orientalist themes of subjugation and inferiority are part of the larger pattern of Western behavior when using Cleopatra’s story. Whether it be Plutarch in the 1st century or artists in the 19th century, Cleopatra as a figure was used to further a political agenda, instead of being remembered in her own right.
Cuddy: These depictions range from complex and intricate to simplistic and demeaning. Yet, they all present Cleopatra as an object attached to Antony rather than her own independent person. Although the focus on Mark Antony has dwindled over time, the view of Cleopatra as a lesser ruler who tried to distract and manipulate those around her has been cemented in the modern perception of Cleopatra and resulted from these various cultural depictions during the formative period of modern Western culture.
Brendan: Now that we’ve looked at Cleopatra’s perception beyond ancient times, you may think that the rest of her legacy has been generalized to fit this Western mold. However, that is far from the truth. Just like how Ancient Egypt represents the queen in a different light, the Arab world’s reception of the queen also starkly contrasts the works from Europe. Whether it is due to a lack of translations or simply European discrimination (we don’t really know), these works are often overshadowed by the more dramatic depictions in the West.
Julia: You’re right. In the book Egyptology: The Missing Millennium, Egyptologist Okasha El Daly illuminates the forgotten part of Egyptian study. Using a variety of secondary sources from Islamic authors, he argues that Western humanities undermine the native perspective of Ancient Egypt. From the medieval age to the rise of colonialism, these perspectives create a depiction of Egypt that is more representative of its inhabitants. Specifically, in his segment about Cleopatra, El Daly emphasizes an absence of any seductive or sexual representations. Interesting right?
Cuddy: Absolutely! Whereas the Europeans depicted her very romantically, Cleopatra is praised by the Arabs for her accomplishments as a scholar. For example, one book written in 690 CE by an Egyptian bishop describes a Cleopatra who worked tirelessly in the interests of her people. Labeled as the “wisest amongst women,” the queeninitiated many public works throughout Egypt.
Brendan: Particularly, Cleopatra reconstructed Alexandria by converting water into land with dikes. She even installed a canal to bring excess water to the city. These immense projects parallel the praise by Ancient Egyptians. While we may not have a lot of these sources, they unlock key info into the queen’s past as both a ruler and politician.
Julia: So, what’s the takeaway from this? To show that there are so many different depictions of Cleopatra throughout history. Although this perspective by the Middle East provides excellent information, it is often discarded in pre-modern and modern depictions.
Cuddy: We posit that the reason for this is portraying Cleopatra as an intelligent and strong woman with political acuity would have been disruptive to the image of both Egypt and women that was propped up in the West as truth during the period when these works were written. Therefore, it was politically expedient to instead claim that Cleopatra was a manipulative, helpless ruler who used her charm to gain any power she could.
Julia: Exactly. Instead of being shown in her own right, she was made a secondary figure tied to the men in her life. The narrative about Cleopatra has been controlled for so long by various groups that we don’t have a broad range of perspectives on Cleopatra. This has done very real and tangible harm over time: we talked to Dr. Lorigan about this, and this is what she had to say:
Dr. Lorigan (20:20-21:00): We don’t have people that really even know about her writing, [sic] writing about her. Or who wanted to try to put her in a good light. And later, as you have these powers like the Roman Empire taking over, and then later the European empires, you have this colonialism and racism taking shape and we are, like, pushing this colonialist narrative, and social Darwinism, that kind of seeks to erase all these voices of the people in the colonized country [sic] because we need to see them as unintelligent and inferior. So, we can’t look at their scholarly sources and things like that.
Brendan: When we compare this narrative to the Eastern sources from the time, the more accurate version of history is clear. But even now, we don’t hear about Cleopatra’s political prowess and intelligence. This tired trope of Cleopatra in relation to Caesar and Mark Antony is used again and again to the point where it’s all that most people think of her as nowadays. But the real question is, how do we think of her nowadays?
Cuddy: I’m so glad you asked! Let’s talk about how Cleopatra’s image has shifted in the past century. In the age of social media, her popularity has changed in many ways. While past representations remain, there is this new mix of depictions by different groups throughout the globe. Ranging from Europe to Africa, there’s certainly a lot to talk about, right Julia?
Segment 4: Modern Representations of Cleopatra (21:45)
Julia: Absolutely! What do you think of when you hear the name Cleopatra?
Cuddy: Well, probably a woman wearing gold, maybe some dark eyeliner. Someone mysterious, maybe alluring and seductive.
Julia: Exactly! Her name rings a bell. A quick search on the online movie database IMDb yields 71 titles tagged with Cleopatra. Whether those are full-blown movies made about her, like the 1963 film Cleopatra directed by Joseph L. Mankiewicz, or if she’s a character, like in the 2005 Scooby-Doo movie, Where’s My Mummy?, Cleopatra’s story has often been repacked and retold in film and media. Cleopatra holds a prominent place in Western culture, and the recognizability of her likeness has made her a highly commercialized figure.
Brendan: Absolutely! The 1963 movie tells the story of Cleopatra amid a changing Egypt under intruding Roman influences. Cleopatra’s entrance into the film is a bold one, rolling out of a red carpet dressed in red after being presented as a gift to Caesar. Immediately, Cleopatra employs something of flirtation and emboldened confidence to achieve her goal of becoming Queen, even asking Caesar outright for the title.
Julia: Yeah, she is acknowledged for her intelligence, wit, and proficiency as a ruler, yet her sexuality is brought into the conversation but to highlight her domineering nature, “taking lover by the number over names”.
Brendan: Yeah, in this modern, Western portrayal, Cleopatra’s prowess is extremely distinct. With the retrospective knowledge of Cleopatra as a Queen among Egypt’s few Queens and Egypt’s last ruler, the film juxtaposes her masculinizing and feminizing features.
Cuddy: Cleopatra herself is played by Elizabeth Taylor, a prominent Hollywood actress who at her death was memorialized and described by The New York Times as a “beauty incarnate”. Through Elizabeth Taylor, this association and classification of Cleopatra with beauty is created.
Julia: Whether she is lounging about in the baths or strategizing her next move, Cleopatra is adorned in colorful and beautiful costumes with striking black eyeliner. Even the set design of her scenes has extra opulence: the boat she takes to Rome is mast with red sails, women lounging about in colorful dresses, and Cleopatra is dramatically veiled behind white curtains sitting between two cat statues.
Brendan: Yeah, there is this mystical, untouchable, otherworldliness to Cleopatra, and whether that sets her above or on par with Caesar and Mark Antony, their influences take prominence in her story. She becomes romantically involved with Caesar, bearing him a child. In scenes where she speaks with Mark Antony, he holds jealousy towards Cleopatra’s relationship with Caesar. Caesar comes between many conversations, and Cleopatra seems to have the skill of bringing out Mark Antony’s vulnerabilities and insecurities regarding his envy towards Caesar.
Julia: Exactly, this romance arc becomes pivotal to the plot, with politics and relationships blurring the lines. Whether that is Cleopatra crying on the floor pleading with Mark Antony or the two characters dramatically slapping each other in fits of anger, Mark Antony even admits that the reason he came to Egypt was to follow Cleopatra, his “love”. But, ultimately, the drama of love in Cleopatra’s life is the most distinct and marketable aspect for a film at a whopping four hours long.
Cuddy: Whew, I get tired just from listening to this description. What about more simple and digestible portrayals of Cleopatra? I seem to remember from my childhood that she was part of a TV special.
Julia: You remember correctly! Scooby-Doo! in Where’s My Mummy? takes on a very different tone for Cleopatra. Being a children’s movie, the focus shifts from the romance surrounding Cleopatra’s death to her tomb and burial. Cleopatra is similarly portrayed as a strong and determined woman, yet frightening as she casts a curse upon Egyptian treasure. Even in her character design, she is less flashy with a harder appearance and a deep voice.
Brendan: Cleopatra’s life isn’t the focal point of this movie, but her recognizability is still utilized with the choice of making her lost tomb the driving force of the plot. Cleopatra takes on more mythological and fantastical attributes, and her resulting character is a mixture of Egyptian and Egyptomania tropes: utilizing the “power of Isis” and rising as an undead mummy to protect her “riches”.
Cuddy: Both films cover this broad, stereotypical characterization of Cleopatra and have subsequently shaped many generations’ perception of her as mysterious, beautiful, fearful, and lustful.
Julia: Hmmm. Are there any other forms of modern media that follow this depiction?
Brendan: Absolutely, and I bet you all will know this one. In Katy Perry’s 2014 music video for her song “Dark Horse,” she takes on a version of Cleopatra, “Katy Patra.” Katy Perry sits on a throne in a colorfully pink Egyptian set judging gifts of various suitors that she subsequently rejects and curses into other objects. At the climax of the song, she stands upon a pyramid taking on the form of an open-winged Isis.
Julia: Oh my god I remembered watching that when I was a kid! Well, there is no doubt that Cleopatra has become such a prominent and recognizable figure in Western media and her portrayal has been constantly reprised in several forms all owing to characteristics of her beauty, mystery, or allure. However, there has been one especially polarizing debate.
Cuddy: Yep, and it’s been a hotly contested one! In the center of her claim by Western culture, is the contention towards the color of her skin. Was she White or was she Black, or something else? Why does it matter?
Julia: Well, in the visual mediums described earlier, the two films and music video, Cleopatra is depicted by fair-skinned individuals of Caucasian descent. Even in the animated movie, Cleopatra is drawn with very fair skin and clearly white features. But how can we know for certain? Can we know for certain?
Brendan: Like other aspects of her identity, the color of her skin is quite ambiguous. Cleopatra ruled over an African country, Egypt, but came from Macedonian Greek ancestry during the Ptolemaic reign. We know that Cleopatra’s grandmother was a concubine, and her mother was unknown.
Cuddy: With this being such a complex topic, we wanted to ask Dr. Lorigan what she thought.
Dr. Lorigan (28:13-28:56) Okay, so we know that Cleopatra is from a Macedonian-Greek royal family, on her father’s side. We don’t know who her mother was. So, we know at least half of her heritage is this white, European heritage. However, barring any future information we find (or something like that), we really cannot say for certain. However, when we look at her, we can say (like the people in Egypt, they weren’t really horrified by this) that she is Egyptian, and that’s how they see her. They see her as an Egyptian queen and not representative of white culture, or black culture, but taking her on the basis of who she was.
Brendan: So, we don’t know for sure, but one thing is for certain: she was an Egyptian.
Julia: Like Dr. Lorigan was saying, Cleopatra exists at a very interesting time in history pulled by many different forces between Africa and Europe, and with her transport to the West, the narrative has been overwhelming that she was White.
Cuddy: We’ve seen this from the very beginning of cinema. In a movie poster from the 1940s for Bernard Shaw’s Caesar and Cleopatra, Cleopatra is portrayed by a White woman, Vivien Leigh, and surrounding her are more women who have fair-skin, Caucasian features. However, the people serving Cleopatra in the image, holding green leaves, have a much darker complexion.
Brendan: But why is it that Cleopatra has consistently been portrayed as White? Shouldn’t her being Egyptian be more marketable, given American Egyptomania?
Julia: Well, Cleopatra’s assumed whiteness seems to elevate her. Maybe it makes her seem like a better ruler or a more formidable opponent or ally in the Egyptian-Roman conflicts that characterized her life.
Cuddy: Maybe it is the implied Whiteness that comes from recognizing and labeling her as white based on her Greek identity. The fact that she was Egyptian was projected onto a whitewashed version of her identity, which has made her so popular in Western media and culture.
Segment 5: Conclusion (30:13)
Brendan: Well, either way, you gotta admit, Cleopatra has taken the world by storm.
Cuddy: From the earliest depictions of her death to “Katy Patra,” the last queen of Egypt is ever evolving. These depictions spanned across periods, regions, and cultures, but aren’t presented equally enough to listeners like you.
Julia: True, but unfortunately, most of the depictions we see are dominated by how the West views Cleopatra. The focus on her seductive features and sexual references undermine [sic] her importance as a ruler and political figure. So, it’s important to view Cleopatra through a multifaceted lens. As discussed in this podcast, there’s so much more to this empowering figure. But something we haven’t talked about is why. Why is it that her legacy is constantly manipulated? What makes her such a powerful tool, in both a political and cultural sense?
Cuddy: Well, I think that Cleopatra is so influential that her accomplishments either threaten or uphold those who choose to portray her. So, it was best for different groups to manipulate the queen in ways that favored them.
Brendan: Yeah, I think that’s definitely prevalent in the context of Rome and how they wanted to ruin her legacy by making her more dependent on others. Each Greco-Roman depiction can be traced back to the politics of their time, and they all use her story to spread a message.
Julia: Absolutely, I feel that the idea of Cleopatra has overtaken who she really was as a person. Today, so many of the narratives we see are motivated by either colonialism, Afrocentrism, or something else entirely. Cleopatra seems to be more or less a name melded and morphed to fulfill an agenda, and that does real damage to her legacy.
Cuddy: Totally agree. That’s why we should see Cleopatra as an accomplished leader rather than as a tool to support a given movement or set of values.
Brendan: Well, per Ancient Egyptian traditions, as her name continues to be spoken, she will continue to live on. As the living, it is our responsibility to ensure that this legacy is presented accurately, using a range of perspectives that have been suppressed up until this point.
Cuddy: We may not be able to replicate her life entirely…
Julia: Or know the events of her death…
Brendan: Or the color of her skin…
Cuddy: But if we work to separate the idea of Cleopatra from the person Cleopatra, we can better understand Ancient Egypt as a whole.
Julia: Well, that’s all we have for you today. Thanks for joining us for another episode of “Now and Then!” We hope that you all enjoyed this deep dive into Cleopatra and her legacy.
Cuddy: We want to give a huge thanks to our wonderful professor, Dr. Robyn Price, for aid throughout the research process; Izzy Uliasz, for helping us at the Rockefeller Library Recording Studio; Karen Bouchard, for her help at the John Hay Library Special Collections; and of course, Dr. Lorigan, for being our wonderful guest on today’s episode.
Brendan: We would also like to thank YOU the listener for tuning in with us today.
All: Until next time!
Outro music
Works Cited:Art Institute of Chicago. Tetradrachm Portraying Queen Cleopatra VII. Chicago, 37 BCE. Online.
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Chauveau, Michel. Egypt in the Age of Cleopatra: History and Society under the Ptolemies. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2000.
Cleopatra. Dir. Joseph L Mankiewicz. Perf. Vivien Leigh. 20th Century Studios, 1963.
Daugherty, Gregory N. The Reception of Cleopatra in the Age of Mass Media. Bloomsbury Publishing, 2022.
Dio, Cassius. Roman History, Volume IX: Books 71-80. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1927.
El Daly, Okasha. Egyptology: The Missing Millennium: Ancient Egypt in Medieval Arabic Writings. New York: Routledge, 2005.
Gautier, Théophile, Paul Avril and Anatole France. A Night of Cleopatra, with Illustrations by Paul Avril; Preface by Anatole France. Paris: Société des beaux-arts, 1890.
Gussow, Mel. “A Lustrous Pinnacle of Hollywood Glamour.” The New York Times 2011.
Hamer, Mary. “Disowning Cleopatra.” Walker, Susan and Sally-Ann Ashton. Cleopatra Reassessed. London: British Museum, 2008. 119-126.
Hamer, Mary. “In the Name of Cleopatra: Emma Hamilton and Catherine Stepney Make Their Mark.” Carlà-Uhink, Filippo and Anja Wieber. Orientalism and the Reception of Powerful Women from the Ancient World. New York: Bloomsbury Academic, 2021. 86-102.
Jones, Prudence J. Cleopatra: A Sourcebook. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2006.
National Screen Service Corp. “G.C.F. Presents Vivien Leigh, Claude Rains in Bernard Shaw’s “Caesar and Cleopatra”.” United Artists Corporation, 1946. Poster.
Ocean, Frank. “Pyramids.” Channel Orange. New York, 2012. Music Video.
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Shakespeare, William. Antony and Cleopatra; a Tragedy. London, 1867.
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The deity Seth is intimately associated with Ancient Egypt’s sense of duality with how he opposes Osiris and Horus. But as time moves forward, when other cultures begin to take Ancient Egypt’s religion and use it as their own or as inspiration, does Seth retain these aspects?
Samantha Lin, Undergraduate
UCLA
Caleb Faver, Undergraduate
TAMUG
Also featuring:
Jeff Newman, PhD Candidate,
UCLA
Transcript: OSIRIS: Seth, why?
SETH: Oh, you know exactly why brother
ISIS: Oh, Osiris, I suppose it falls to me to revive you.
RA: Seth, you are prepared for tonight?
SETH: As always, my King.
APEP: [Hisses]
RA: Then I trust you to protect me with all your strength.
SAMANTHA LIN: Now, what was that all about?
CALEB FAVER: Yeah, what was that? Wasn’t Osiris the pharaoh or something? And Seth just killed him!
LIN: Exactly! And scattered his body parts all over too.
FAVER: And at the same time. He’s what, protecting the head honcho of the gods, Ra?
LIN: Interesting, isn’t it?
LIN: Welcome to “Now as Then” Season Two Episode One. I’m Samantha Lin.
FAVER: And I’m Caleb Faver, and today, with the help of a certain expert,
JEFF NEWMAN: Hi, my name is Jeff Newman. I am currently a fourth year PhD student in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Cultures. I study Egyptian archaeology.
LIN: We’re discussing the god of chaos and the desert, Seth.
LIN: So what do you know about Seth?
FAVER: Well, you know how Loki stabbed his brother in the back?
LIN: Ah, yes.
FAVER: He’s like that. But other than that, not much.
LIN: So, Seth is the god of the desert, storms, foreigners and chaos. And well, like you said, he stabbed his brother. Were you paying attention to the beginning?
FAVER: Oh, yeah. Osiris is his brother. Did he have other siblings?
LIN: He did indeed. You might have heard of them! Isis and Nephthys.
FAVER: Wait, isn’t Isis Osiris’ wife?
LIN: Yup. Seth married his sister as well.
FAVER: Really?
LIN: Yeah. And he’s Anubis’ dad.
FAVER: That seems…
LIN: On the topic of Anubis! You know how he has a jackal head?
FAVER: Yeah, and Horus has a falcon head.
LIN: You know what animal Seth has on his head?
FAVER: From the images I’ve seen it’s a mix between a dog and an aardvark?
LIN: Yeah, that’s probably as close as you’re gonna get. The animal he is from the shoulders up is called the Set animal. Kinda Sets him apart from the other gods that his animal is, well, his and doesn’t exist, right?
FAVER: Haha, but yeah, I can see how that makes him different from the others just by nature.
LIN: Right. And when the Set animal hieroglyph is written, most of its words like “suffering” and “violent storms” have an association with chaos, which happens to be what Seth is a god of. 1
FAVER: Just straight up chaos?
LIN: Just straight up chaos! which might I add is very important to ancient Egyptian culture. You see, think about the layout of their land.
FAVER: I remember learning about this actually. Among the river valley civilizations, Egypt started it up around the Nile. Their lives were led by the Nile, since when it flooded, it deposited silt that let them grow their crops. Yeah? And if you’re interested to learn more, check out our episode on the Nile.
LIN: Perfect. Now, what’s important is that you remember the other important geographical feature of Egypt. It’s smack in the middle of…
FAVER: The desert.
LIN: The desert! The important part of this is just how diametrically opposed these two things are in every way.
FAVER: The desert is full of course, rough, irritating sand that gets everywhere.
LIN: While the river valley is filled with crops.
FAVER: The desert’s also harsh and hot and hard to travel through. It’s chaotic and dangerous to be in.
LIN: Meanwhile, Egypt around the Nile is considered home where it’s safe and there’s food and water.
FAVER: The sands are bright red,
LIN: While, the silt is a glistening black.
FAVER: So earlier when you said Seth was the god of the desert, you were saying he’s basically the god of all these bad concepts.
LIN: Exactly. And guess who the god is of all these good concepts? I’ll give you a hint: He’s dead now.
FAVER: Oh.
LIN: Yes! Oh-siris. His domain is all those good things we mentioned. In addition to being associated with kingship. 2 It doesn’t end there either. It’s probably clear by now that the ancient Egyptians had a strong sense of duality. Black and red, Osiris and Seth, and Ma’at and Isfet.
FAVER: What was those last two?
LIN: Well, Ma’at is basically order, involved with things such as justice in moderation. The goddess Ma’at is the daughter of Ra, god of the sun and one of the gods responsible for creating the world. Very important.
FAVER: So isfet is disorder.
LIN: And it’s the pharaohs’ job to make sure that Ma’at overcomes Isfet. So, you know, society can function.
FAVER: And if Osiris and Horus are related to the pharaohs,
LIN: You guessed it. Also associated with disorder is our good friend Seth. It doesn’t end there either!
LIN: Egypt may have good natural defenses, what with all the sand and water, but it still ended up falling to foreign rule. And guess who’s also the god of foreigners?
FAVER: Seth. Imagine if after invading they said, “Hey, Seth seems pretty neat!” and took him as their representative.
LIN: There’s no need for that! That totally happened. 3
FAVER: Wow! So Seth was kind of the worst, just totally evil.
LIN: Incorrect!
FAVER: Oh, okay.
LIN: Were you paying attention in the beginning?
FAVER: Hmm. In that segment, Seth was protecting the king from a snake. Oh, wait, this is the part I know well actually!
LIN: Go wild.
FAVER: The creator of the gods and the world, Ra, would descend into to the underworld every night as the representation of the sun setting. Waiting for him every night was Apep or Apophis, a giant serpent and yet another embodiment of chaos, who would try to sink Ra’s boat and keep the sun from rising the next day.
FAVER: So during this time, it was the job of certain gods to keep the king safe. Namely Bastet, the Eye of Ra, and Seth. Seth has been depicted as spearing Apep in the Book of the Dead 4, a clear show just how he goes about doing his job.
LIN: Awesome! Thank you, Caleb! You see, after all this, there’s something else Seth is associated with: power. That staff you see lots of representations of him holding is called a Was-scepter, which represents power. And look at this. 5 Look familiar?
FAVER: Huh. You sent me a picture of one of the heads of a scepter. It looks like his head. And is that Seth carved into the wood?6 For the symbol of power to have his animal shape and have his face engraved in it sure explains how he’s able to fend off the evil serpent so well.
NEWMAN: With a deity like Seth, he originally sort of has a, instead of a danger aspect to his sort of cosmic flavor, that originally seems to be more dealing with power and strength. So he seems early on to be more of a god that’s associated with chaos, but not necessarily the bad form of chaos, but the chaos that exists in life naturally. And you can even see it in some of the earliest Egyptian religious texts that we have, that while Seth is very much a dangerous deity, he’s also a protective deity. And this kind of goes to a concept that you see throughout Egyptian religion, in that if you can get like a demon or some sort of very terrible, dangerous force, figure out a way to have that horrible thing, work in your favor, you can sort of harness it. Sometimes we refer to it as something being apotropaic.
So it’s finding one of these like dangerous forces and sort of harnessing it to use to help protect whatever your own initiative is. That sort of seems the way that the Egyptians thought of Seth, at least early on in Egyptian history. But then, of course, even in the Pyramid Texts, the famous Contendings of Horus and Seth, we also have references to that early on as well, too. And yes, it does seem that the Egyptians felt that Seth was oftentimes in opposition to the two gods that were most associated with kingship, Osiris and his son, Horus. But this also goes to another Egyptian concept, which is that there’s always a balance in life. But what the Egyptians sort of nuanced this idea, this balance idea is that you can never have one fully eliminate the other; it’s not good to have one be completely eliminated. What’s good is that there’s a balance of both. And that’s sort of how I sort of interpret Seth, at least early on in Egyptian history. He’s kind of that necessary evil.
FAVER: So after all, this Seth is the worst, but also the most important to the Pantheon.
LIN: In a way, yes, he defends the most important God alongside Bastet. So he isn’t just a single facet.
FAVER: Are you even allowed to exist in such two different spheres? Doesn’t Ra merge with Osiris when he enters the underworld?
LIN: Yes. And yes. You also have to remember that after he died, Osiris became the god of the underworld, another very important part of ancient Egyptian culture. Between killing Osiris and protecting Ra, Seth is very involved in the most important concepts of rebirth. You’re most well versed in Norse mythology, right?
FAVER: So it’s like that where things can be interpreted in different ways. In Norse’s case, it’s because there’s only really two books to draw material from.
LIN: Ancient Egyptian religion is like the opposite of that. Before being really consolidated, different cities had their own cults favorites. It’s not as clear cut as Greek mythology where Agamemnon bad or Achilles mad.
NEWMAN: The Egyptians were not necessarily looking for one specific answer to any of their fundamental existential questions, and in a way that I mean, you can see in many religions, Greek religion included, and that’s that there’s oftentimes inconsistencies when you look at the specifics of what they deal with. But I would say that overall Egyptian religion is very fluid. There is never simply, at least to the outside observer, there often doesn’t seem to be one correct answer to any of the big questions in life. Instead, the Egyptians prefer to layer those meanings onto different entities, onto different stories, onto different symbology. Whereas in Greek mythology, there seems to be much more of a standardized hierarchy.
LIN: Homer and his buddies were…
FAVER: Oh, yeah, they wrote everything down.
LIN: Yeah, exactly. Oh, on the topic of Homer! Seth was actually adapted into Greek mythology.
FAVER: Really? I don’t remember any Set animal headed Greek gods.
LIN: Yeah, he wasn’t lucky enough to get a humanoid body this time. You know how Seth came to be associated with invaders?
FAVER: Did they not really like him after that?
LIN: Yeah, to the point where he kinda sorta merged with the snake he used to kill every night.
NEWMAN: And this is also, for instance, when we get the most expressed form of the Contendings of Horus and Seth – that actual story comes down to us in the form of a papyrus from the 20th Dynasty, I think, so actually rather late in the New Kingdom. And that’s where we get the fully expressed form where Seth actually murders Osiris, and almost does the same thing to Horus and sort of usurps the throne. So coincidentally, when you get that papyrus, you also get detections of the attitude that Seth isn’t necessarily the greatest deity. And that’s when we sort of see that he’s sort of turning into this more evil figure. So there is a diachronic shift in the attitude of Seth and Egyptian religion for sure.
LIN: So to the Greeks, Seth became Typhon. In Hesiod’s theogony, Typhon is the father to a bunch of Echidna’s monsters, including Cerberus and the Hydra. And is shaped like
FAVER: A giant snake? 7
LIN: You guessed it.
FAVER: So they just made him a monster and ignored the good he did for the gods.
LIN: Well, he was also the dad of typhoons.
FAVER: So he kept the storms and his chaos: his kids are the antagonists to a bunch of heroes.
LIN: Yeah, it’s not really a great look for Seth, you know. And you know how Greek mythology was very clear cut. When they adapted Egyptian gods, a lot got shaved off. They really just took a lot of the gods and put their attributes on to their own Greek Pantheon. 8
FAVER: Did Apollo get Horus?
LIN: You bet.
LIN: Anyway, guess how people are worshipping Seth in the modern day.
FAVER: People are worshipping Seth in the modern day?
LIN: Yep. But not in the way you’d think. Kemetism does exist, which is people following the ancient Egyptian religion in the modern day, but that is not what we’re here for.
FAVER: Oh.
LIN: Seth has his own religion that’s a spin off of Satanism.
FAVER: Excuse me?
LIN: Setianism started in Santa Barbara, California in 1975, separated from the Church of Satan and believe that Seth, or Set, is the one true God. And they are indeed exempt from taxes. 9
FAVER: But, but isn’t Seth from a polytheistic religion, where when somebody in power tried to make it monotheistic, they experienced post mortem backlash?10
LIN: Akhenaten did that with the creator god too. Not the trickster, controversial, Seth.
FAVER: Well, what do they focus on in Seth?
LIN: They have a religious book that Seth spoke through the founder Michael Aquino in.
FAVER: Is… is that? Does this track with-
LIN: And it focuses on Seth as a teacher who teaches them to gain immortality of consciousness.
LIN: None that really sounds like the ancient Egyptian concept of Seth. So they essentially saw this demonized figure, decided he was like the Satan they were familiar with, and molded the concept of him to fit their religion they were starting.
FAVER: Essentially, that feels disrespectful of the ancient Egyptians.
LIN: I agree. Well, to lighten the mood a little maybe let’s transition to something we can both enjoy talking about a little more.
LIN: Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, the manga by Hirohiko Araki.
FAVER: Heck yes.
LIN: You’re the one who introduced me to this massive franchise that’s led to Araki getting his art displayed in the Louvre. This man has collaborated with Gucci!
LIN: And his currently eight part manga we’re discussing started in 1987 and continues to have its story told.
LIN: But what we want to focus on is Part Three: Stardust Crusaders.
FAVER: That’s the arc where the titular Jojo and his friends travel through Egypt to defeat DIO. And what do you know? A lot of the enemies they fight have powers based on Egyptian gods, including our good friend Seth.
LIN: Sethan, the stand introduced in chapter 205, or Episode 31 of Stardust Crusaders, materializes as a black or purple shadow respectively, and has the power to regress the age of anyone that passes over.11
FAVER: Wait. Something about that doesn’t sound right.
LIN: Oh, so you have been paying attention?
FAVER: Of course I have. Seth is associated with red and is normally in direct opposition with black. What gives?
LIN: Even if Jojo is known for its off the wall color palettes and changing them for the scene? Wouldn’t it make sense to make this stand red as a simple homage?
FAVER: After all this, I also don’t really see how his stand relates to this role in the myth either.
LIN: The only thing I could think of is his connection to Horus the Younger through fighting with Horus and their Contendings. Check out the season one episode about Horus if you’re interested about that.
FAVER: That’s, that’s a bit of a stretch.
LIN: Yeah, but it’s all i’ve got.
FAVER: Then isn’t this in a roundabout
LIN: HA
FAVER: way, a bit of like what the Sethian guy did to Seth? Strip him of all his meaning and relevance in order to make him fit the narrative.
LIN: I think you could argue that, especially because some of the other gods referenced in Jojo’s, such as Horus or Osiris, both didn’t have their names changed, and their references to the original gods were much more clear.
FAVER: Yeah, Horus was a straight up falcon, and Osiris dealt with people’s souls, a nod to his role in the underworld.
LIN: That being said, When localized Sethan was changed to Set, and I think Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure has the excuse of being both fiction and having quote unquote, Bizarre in the name. It’s not meant to be taken seriously.
FAVER: I see where you’re coming from.
LIN: But this is still a legitimate culture being referenced here and not just fun Western album names like the other powers are named after. So Food for Thought. Is this depiction, both of Egyptian gods as the enemies and Sethan’s design and power made better because it’s fun?
FAVER: To be fair, most of the Egyptian gods stands belong to Egyptian locals.
LIN: That is a good point. Something to keep in mind.
LIN: We made it all the way to the end. So I have a question for you, Caleb, are you familiar with Orientalism?
FAVER: Vaguely? Aren’t rugs oriental?
LIN: I think they have that descriptor sometimes. But that’s not what this use of the word is. You know how the way people in the West view other nations is a bit skewed sometimes, sometimes to make them look more threatening?
FAVER: Well, yes, unfortunately, like how the intro song to Aladdin talks about cutting off your ear.
LIN: Yeah, Orientalism is the result of that. It’s the mindset that the Orient basically the middle to Far East is different and something of a spectacle, to be ogled and profited off of or feared, but not understood. Enough of this, and eventually the result is that the West views cultures of the Orient as inferior and something to be improved.
FAVER: Disgusting.
LIN: I know right? Egyptomania really led to a warped view of Egypt as a whole. And I’d argue that these uses and misuses of Seth are just another example of that. He was stripped of his original identity and just either an evil monster or something completely different depending on who was using his image.
LIN: It’s only fair to note that the ancient Egyptians had a hand in the flip to a pure evil Seth. However, the others really took what happened and ran with it.
FAVER: So you’re saying that Orientalism is still relevant and you’re using Seth as your example.
LIN: That’s indeed what I’m doing. Unless people cared to look, they never have known about the facets of Seth. Similarly, unless people care to find proper sources, the ancient Egyptian civilization is largely something mystic and far away and Amazing, while modern Egypt is just kind of geographically superimposed over it,
FAVER: Dang, I’ve learned a lot from this and I definitely don’t want to fall into that hole. The ancient Egyptians were people with a religion and to respect that is to takes steps to respecting their culture as a whole,
LIN: I couldn’t have said it better myself.
LIN: Thank you so much for joining me on this opener episode of Season Two of “Now as Then.” A huge thank you to Robyn Price for leading the seminar that produced this podcast, Deidre Whitmore for all to help with podcasting, Simon Lee, Katherine Kapsidelis, and Jet Jacobs for their insight into research, and Martin Brennan for help on copyright.
FAVER: If you want to hear more about Ancient Egypt and how it’s relevant in our modern time, check out the other episodes of “Now as Then.” Each one is about a wholly different topic, so really?
LIN: You should listen to all of them.
FAVER: You should listen to all of them!
LIN: One last time. Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Seth spearing Apep
Was-Scepter of Seth’s face
Works Cited: Araki, Hirohiko. “‘God Sethan’ Alessi, Part 1,” Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders. Weekly Shonen Jump. 1991.
Banks, J. and Nagy, Gregory. Hesiod, Theogony. https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5289 . Center for Hellenic Studies, Harvard. 12 Dec. 2019. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
Betrò, Maria C. Hieroglyphics: the Writings of Ancient Egypt. 1st. ed. New York: Abbeville Press, 1996.
Budge, E. A. Wallis. The Gods of the Egyptians: Studies in Egyptian Mythology. Routledge, 2010.
Bunson, Margaret. Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt. Facts On File, 2012.
Ćwiek, Andrzej. “RED AND BLACK WORLD.” Studies in Ancient Art & Civilization 18 (2014). https://www.academia.edu/35318747/Studies_in_Ancient_Art_and_Civilization_vol._18.
Dorman, Peter F., and John R. Baines. “Sources and Limitations of Ancient and Modern Knowledge.” Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 10 Oct. 2017,
www.britannica.com/topic/ancient-Egyptian-religion/Sources-and-limitations-of-ancient-aNd-modern-knowledge.
Fritze, R. H. Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession, and Fantasy. 2016.
Hirst, John. “Horemheb – KV 57.” Tombs of Ancient Egypt, Osirisnet, 5 May 2011, www.osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/horemheb/e_horemheb_pharaon_01.htm.
Introvigne, Massimo. Satanism: a Social History. Brill, 2016.
Te Velde, H. Seth, God of Confusion: A Study of His Role In Egyptian Mythology And Religion. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1967.
Trigger, Bruce Graham; Kemp, Barry; O’Connor, David Bourke; Lloyd, Alan Brian. Ancient Egypt, A Social History. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. 2001.
UCL Petrie Collection Online Catalogue. “New Kingdom UC60024,” The Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology http://petriecat.museums.ucl.ac.uk/detail.aspx#7474, 2019, Accessed 1 May 2020
21st Dynasty Book of the Dead, Egyptian Museum, Cairo
Sound Credits: “I Recall” by Blue Dot Sessions
“Storybook” by Scott Holmes
“Interception” by Kai Engel
“SnakeAttackVerbPuls” by Jamius
https://freesound.org/people/Jamius/sounds/41531/
“Nasty Knife Stab 2” by Aris621 https://freesound.org/people/Aris621/sounds/478145/
“Beheading SFX” by Ajexk https://freesound.org/people/Ajexk/sounds/271984/
1 Betrò, Maria C. Hieroglyphics: the Writings of Ancient Egypt. 1st. ed. New York: 2 Ćwiek, Andrzej. “RED AND BLACK WORLD.” Studies in Ancient Art & Civilization 18 (2014).3 Te Velde, H. Seth, God of Confusion: A Study of His Role In Egyptian Mythology And Religion. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1967.4 21st Dynasty Book of the Dead, Egyptian Museum, Cairo5 . Hirst, John. “Horemheb – KV 57.” Tombs of Ancient Egypt, Osirisnet, 5 May 2011,6 Betrò, Maria C. Hieroglyphics: the Writings of Ancient Egypt. 1st. ed. New York: Abbeville Press, 1996.7 Banks, J. and Nagy, Gregory. Hesiod, Theogony. https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5289 . Center for Hellenic Studies, Harvard. 12 Dec. 2019. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020. 8 Fritze, R. H. Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession, and Fantasy. 2016.9 Introvigne, Massimo. Satanism: a Social History. Brill, 2016.10 Trigger, Bruce Graham; Kemp, Barry; O’Connor, David Bourke; Lloyd, Alan Brian. Ancient Egypt, A Social History. Cambridge; New York: CambridgeUniversity Press. 2001.11 Araki, Hirohiko. “‘God Sethan’ Alessi, Part 1,” Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure: Stardust Crusaders. Weekly Shonen Jump. 1991.
With a river as widely known as the Nile, you’d think the average would know a little more about it. You’re in luck! Listen in, and I’ll tell you everything you need to know about the Nile River and its purposes over time. We will then explore how changes over time brought the Nile to where it is today; and then see how time might’ve changed the way we even think about it.
Ruby Prosser, UCLA Undergraduate Featuring: (not pictured) Amr Shahat, PhD Candidate, Cotsen Institute of Archaeology, UCLA
Transcript [Introduction 00:00-2:59]
RUBY PROSSER: background music Perhaps the most famous river in the world, The Nile River has been a source of life for Egyptian civilization for thousands of years. It is the world’s longest river, spanning more than 6,800 kilometers (~4225 miles) and runs through 10 different countries. While it is so long, its drainage is a mere fraction of rivers such as the Amazon, Congo, and Danube. All of this water not draining out into the ocean flooded and irrigated the river’s banks and provided sustenance for the people who lived near. 1There were also widely known cultural beliefs about the river such as its personification as a god, explaining the Nile’s power to give life in the otherwise desert climate of Egypt. 2And for its time, the Nile was also known as an extensive trade route, and inspired plans for socio-political structures and settlements throughout Egypt.3 You wanna hear more? Let’s go for a “Journey Down the Nile”.
PROSSER: Thanks for dropping by, my name is Ruby Prosser and welcome to Season 2 Episode 2 of of Now As Then, a podcast series exploring differences and similarities in perceptions of Ancient Egypt over time. In this episode called “Journey Down the Nile”, I will be talking about many aspects of Pharaonic, Ptolemaic/Roman, and modern Egypt that had built up as well as changed Western perceptions of the Nile River. We’ll be learning some of these changed perceptions were created in part by ideas of globalization and ethnocentrism, and contribute to damaging practices of commercialization and notions of Orientalism. This is a whole lot to hear right now, and I promise I’ll be explaining all of this… but that’s for later. For our special guest, we are joined throughout the podcast with the wonderful Amr Shahat.
AMR SHAHAT: My name is Amr Shahat I am a fourth-year PhD student in Egyptian archaeology and my specialization is archaeobotany. So when I dig in archaeological sites I look for food and plant remains and I explore the history of culture and cultural interaction through the lens of plants. How do they use these plants for their food system, agriculture, medicine, clothing and for trade interactions?
PROSSER: Great! There’s so much more to hear, so stick around!
Switch up music
[Section 1: Ancient Egypt 3:00- 14:24]
[Subsection: Agriculture]
PROSSER: background music So we’ve all heard the phrase “Water is life”. And for ancient Egyptian civilizations, the Nile River was the source of all things needed to survive. The Nile River first provided irreplaceable water, and then humans learned to control it for agriculture. With years of surpluses, this aspect of Egypt was a flourishing one, but farmers had to have technology to calculate ways to get the best crop yield. river sounds Let’s start with the very basics according to Nezar AlSayyad, a professor and urbanist with interests in Islamic architecture and urban history. Water goes through natural processes, like precipitation, can gather in a lake, glacier, and be released by rivers and streams into the ocean. The most natural form of water ancient Egyptians learned to control was, of course, the river that we call the Nile today. We can learn about the Nile’s natural cycle in the terms of the ancient Egyptians and their agricultural calendar. The three seasons were named Akhet, Peret, and Shemu, or Inundation, Growing, and Harvest. These parts had about four months each, and were all very distinctive parts of the Nile’s agricultural “cycle”. First, Akhet or Inundation was the four month’s time in which the Nile’s water levels rose up to extensively flood the soil on the banks of the river. This left farmland well-watered and very fertile for the next growing season. background music ends This sudden rise in the waters, though, created devastating floods, ruining the farmland and the previous harvest of crops if not measured correctly. I’ll talk a little more about Hapy sparkle sound, the personification of the power behind these floods, when we talk about the Nile’s cultural significance. Further, to combat this power, ancient Egyptians created a very, very advanced irrigation system. This system allowed for many canals to reach the innermost parts of land to water the crops. Systems like shadufs, which were long poles attached to a water bucket, allowed for farmers to easily allocate the river water to these canals. The next season is called Peret, when farmers plant multiple crops in the silt, including but of course not limited to barley, onions, wheat, and lettuce. Ancient Egypt used tools such as the ox-drawn plow, hoes, and large baskets to plant after inundation. Breaking up the fertile soil after it had been inundated was important to actually make sure the seeds could be viable and sprout.4 After another four months of plowing the fields and harvesting, the final season of Shemu, or harvesting came along. A primary source shows us multiple storage records of distributions in the food surplus, suggesting ancient Egyptians were harvesting in surplus for many years.5 Because of this people were able to make and store other artifacts like textiles, also shown in the record. Ancient Egyptians celebrated this surplus and the season Shemu with a festival associated with the goddess Renenutet. 6 background music We know there were celebrations, but Amr, what did they celebrate?
SHAHAT: So there is a celebration of two important days. The harvest day in March, and there’s a day in January around, I think, January 21st where after the flood is complete and when winter starts and the water is cold. They consider that time the cleanest and the purest time for the Nile water. They call it the day of Wathas, it means swimming, the Nile is safe to swim in and drink from. And they consider Christianity and Islam the host religions and it’s the other way actually, they continue these ancient beliefs around the Nile even under [the current] time period. background music ends
PROSSER: Wow, it’s crazy how the efficiency of their yield from the river has been celebrated for that long! The efficiency of the agricultural system also definitely proved itself through the surplus, and this suggests Egyptians also had materials to trade. According to AlSayyad, there soon became development of reed and wooden rafts which converted the Nile into a highway for trade, communication, and political integration. With further developments in technologies to farm and trade, there was successful handling of the Nile River over the first few Dynasties. Great!
[Subsection: Culture]
high pace, switch up music
PROSSER: Think back to when we talked about inundation, and the power behind the flood to either give life or create destruction. Those are cultural beliefs about the Nile! At this point, let’s introduce a little information about the religiosity of ancient Egyptians, or how religious the general population was. Barry Kemp, an archaeologist and Egyptologist, recognizes that many ancient Egyptians followed a “popular religion”, but were also used in New Kingdom periods as a way to possibly boost personal relationships with the deities they prayed to.7 It was more of the nobles and elites that would practice spells, rituals, and other prayers. Nonetheless, it’s important to learn about what many people believed about the Nile River in the Pharaonic time. Ancient Egyptians unified most gods with the characteristics of the central god Ra, or the King of Gods. Because of this, the Nile River god, Hapy, is depicted with many similarities to Ra and lesser known Khenum, an early god of waterfalls. Another deity associated with the Nile is Renenutet, a powerful goddess in control of nourishment, fertility, and harvest. You can probably remember that she was celebrated at Shemu, the harvest festival.8 background music Amr, who was Hapy and how was his religious presence effective for the ruling class?
SHAHAT: In ancient Egypt the embodiment of the Nile flood and the balances and beauty that the Nile comes with is embodied by the god Hapy. You see that kings, when they focus on agriculture, especially in the middle kingdom after they recover from civil war, they started to focus on irrigation systems and development. So we also find emphasis on god Hapy, and Amnemhat the 3rd to celebrate and presents himself as god Hapy on Earth, bringing bounty to the Nile, et cetera, he has a presentation of himself as Hapy bringing food and fish and plants to the Egyptians. This statue is in the Egyptian museum, it’s very impressive. background music ends
PROSSER: Very impressive indeed! Many images of Hapy represent inundation itself, which we remember was the flooding of the soil on the banks along the Nile. In Pharaonic times he is normally represented male aligned, but also androgynously being a “stout man with female breasts” giving him a duality of sorts. That duality plays out in his gender presentation and control of both fertility and drought. In Sety I tomb, there are multiple other facets that show the phenomenon of dual conception. For example, we have the North and South river valleys, and familiar double tomb inscriptions of the god having a papyrus plant in one hand and a lotus plant in the other. I know you’re thinking: Ruby, what does that stuff mean? The North, or Lower Egypt is the delta that diverges into several channels until it dumps into the ocean symbolized by papyrus. The South, or Upper Egypt is the portion upriver from the delta symbolized by lotus. The unity of the papyrus and lotus flowers showed the Nile’s connection between both Upper and Lower Egypt, again ultimately showing Hapy’s dual power. Ancient Egyptians showcase the first case of religiosity and personification of the Nile River, which is evidently their biggest claim to survival. We will soon touch on how these beliefs bleed into other periods, using aspects of these ideologies to increase economic endeavors as well as change religious beliefs. Let’s move on!
[Subsection: Sociopolitical]
high pace, switch up music
PROSSER: There is so much to explore concerning social organization and trade in ancient Egypt through most of the dynastic periods. What did they trade, how were they organized socially and politically? A great example to talk about is Memphis. Memphis was the first capital city of lower Egypt, and was the product of twenty different dynasties. As we discussed with Amr in the first section, the Nile River shaped the organization and content of early settlement and soon to be built villages or cities. With the harnessing of the Nile River, civilizations were able to have a surplus of food, which enabled ancient Egypt to have a state administration, division of labor, and early specialized jobs like merchants to trade. Division of labor did change throughout dynasties, but the city expanded regardless of specialty. For example, centralization and city building only expanded as the pyramid builders grew the city to accommodate their craftsmen and laborers even though they were notoriously not great city builders. On top of those jobs rested the civil servants, priests, nobles, bureaucrats, and eventually the king or pharaoh. This political organization was created for the king to conduct duties and ceremonies showing he was a divine being linked to both the godly and human worlds. This religiousness in the higher levels of society provided more money and resources to be allocated to architecture, including temples, tombs and pyramids. This was the beginning of commercialization in Egypt because soon temples served not only a religious purpose, but also as a center of economic power.
[Discussion]
PROSSER: So what can we take away from all this? We have to learn this information first to be able to analyze how it changed our perception of Egyptian society later. But we can also use this information to learn how ancient Egypt themselves learned to adapt and control efficient agricultural, religious, and political systems in their own right, without much outside influence. That is, until the influences of the Ptolemies and Rome.
Switch up music
[Section 2: Ptolemies/Rome 14:25- 26:34]
PROSSER: Alright, let’s talk about the Greco-Roman period, spanning about 900 years in Egypt. Greek influenced and inhabited Egypt first for about 300 years, and Roman control lasted another 600 years or so after that, making Greco-Roman control span from about 330BC to 630CE. Wow! Remember, we are thinking about how new influences such as the Greeks and Romans on the use of symbols to commercialize Ancient Egypt. Ptolemy II is credited with many achievements and interests such as the Library of Alexandria, foreign policy and agricultural expansion. He is a large reason why ancient Egyptian or Pharaonic culture bled into his time period so much, depicting him as a religious elite as well as an administrative leader. As I take you through these 300 years or so, think about how ancient Egyptian values were changed and depicted, and how that changed how you might see Egypt today!
[Subsection: Agriculture]
flute music
PROSSER: Before the Greeks arrived around 330 BCE, the Egyptians were largely left to themselves to manage the Nile. Then Greeks came into Egypt and centralized the government and therefore agricultural systems to feed their empire. The biggest difference was, Egypt became part of Greece, and the leaders became more concerned with having stricter control over production so they were able to use both Egypt’s fertile soil and large labor force. The Fayyum, an oasis region of Egypt known for its very lush agricultural land, was actually most prominent in the Middle Kingdom, or 1975 BC to 1640 BC, but was settled in and terraformed by the Greeks. As time moved on, ancient Egyptian irrigation systems inspired Greco-Roman canals and hydraulics.9 background music The calendar and seasons were also changed to a dual calendar system, including Julian months and more patterns to follow because now they were solely using this system to create revenue for their empires.10This is important because the agricultural systems were now being used to create coinage along with a stabilized economic production system, ultimately giving leaders more economic and therefore political power. Amr, can you jump in here and give us some crops that emerged in this period? How about from other places or times?
SHAHAT: So this is very important, we started out with mainly the wheat and barley and linen. Here I found that also while the plants were still in use, especially palm. You get two kinds of fruit from them, dates and another fruit called DOUM and this palm tree is only native to the South of Egypt. And it is marked by having two heads, like you know the regular date palm has one head on top. No, this one has a trunk and then the trunk becomes two trunks and then two heads of the palm. I’ve never seen this in the North or anywhere not near the Nile River. It’s also native to Sudan. It’s these wild plants that continued because they had multiple uses like spices to juices to even medicinal applications.
PROSSER: Ok, so moving on to more recent periods such as the Ptolemaic period, what kind of crops do we see being introduced along with these ones that are staying?
SHAHAT: Yes we have the introduction of pomegranate coming from the East Mediterranean. I found the introduction of juniper berries, it was my first time to discover it and this species specifically. During quarantine for the coronavirus I made my own hand sanitizer out of it. I just added percentage of alcohol in it, crushed it and made it a sanitizer. laughs
PROSSER: That’s so cool! That’s how you do it guys. background music ends Okay, so what about the agricultural systems themselves? Colin Adams, a professor of mathematics with an interest in Roman-Egypt transportation, also says there were lots of exploitations and failures during this time. Workers were subjected to years of compulsory labor, there was redistribution of wealth to the wealthy, and then there ended up being future hindrances in agricultural production due to poor management. Because of this “negligence” to handle irrigation, many of these Roman canals that came in the latter part of the rule of Greco-Romans failed in production and disrepair.10 During this time, there were additional efforts to monopolize industries out of Egypt for additional revenue. The desperation to exploit the people, land and symbols of ancient Egypt was just the start of appropriation in Egypt. Above all, this is evidence that the settlers of Greco-Roman Fayyum believed economy and agricultural processes were more of a major concern of the state, suggesting the purpose and therefore perception of the Nile River had changed into more of a functional tool. We will later talk about this tool and how it concerns socio-political movements as well. Things were quick to change throughout this period, but Egyptologists are quick to study these fluctuations and apply them to this growing notion of commercialization.11,12
[Subsection: Culture]
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PROSSER: Cultural appropriation is essentially the adoption of culture, usually a more dominant culture taking from the lesser one to benefit off of it. Recall from about thirty seconds ago when I told you about the people, land, and symbols that were being appropriated for economic use? This is exactly cultural appropriation, boo noises and it definitely goes hand-in-hand with commercialization. This is the management and selling of a product for financial gain. As you recall, traditional ancient Egyptian images of Hapy are predominantly drawn as a male character, but as we move further into the Greco-Roman period, we see more of his sexual and therefore cultural duality like we saw in the Tomb at Sety.In Greek-style pictures, Hapy is seen associated with a female, who first appeared on Alexandrian coinage. The introduction of the coin and this image widely normalized female-aligned gods into Greco-Roman period cultural belief. This goddess was called Euthenia, representing abundance and wealth. This fit with Greco-Roman attitudes of making revenue from agriculture as well as just having cultural power over the native Egyptians. Amr, can you tell us a bit about what stayed the same as well as some changes when it came to the Nile’s use and beliefs around it in this period?
SHAHAT: background music It expanded and exploited on making more irrigation systems, connected more channels and canals, and focused on water systems in the oasis also. Especially Fayoum, where the Nile branches out naturally and pours into not the Mediterrarnean a lake, called Lake Fayoum. East LA has this project working on this project working on the Greco Roman history of agriculture and agricultural exploitation in Fayoum.
PROSSER: Thanks Amr, great input. And we can actually see this with the Harris Magical Papyrus also shows evidence of Egyptian-inspired stories rewritten with Greek gods’ names in the same context.2 Furthermore, Egyptian religious beliefs that rivers had their own demons also inspired Greco-Roman nymphs, or water spirits of the Nile River. It is generally known that those two ideologies, being Ptolemaic and Egyptian were pretty syncretised at the time. So what? Now we know the influences of monotheistic religions show both change in actual belief and a change that encouraged economic exploitation of ancient religious beliefs over time. We must stop perceiving Egyptian culture through a lens of ethnocentrism and economic profit. Well Ruby, what is ethnocentrism? Ethnocentrism is the idea that people see other cultures according to preconceptions originating in the standards of their own culture. This is seen in Greek and Roman Egypt possibly because there was an increase in aestheticism or a beauty contest, and even a sense of notoriety, like I’m better than you because I use the image of Hapy on my empire’s coins.
[Subsection: Sociopolitical]
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PROSSER: The introduction of early Ptolemaic administrative districts called sepat, led to the operation of a government that oversaw nomes, which were basically smaller versions of the government. This caused some internal conflict, eventually leading to decentralization of power in this period of Egypt. Nonetheless, these cities were a huge center for trade and communication between other cities and eventually empires. The river flow soon became the basis of taxation and government income in ancient Egypt and its settlements. This growth continued on through the Greco-Roman period, when more political organization grew the economy and stabilized settlement patterns. Unfortunately there were uprisings under Ptolemaic rule, and according to many scholars, they were caused by many factors including ethnicity, nationalism, poor economy, and Nile floods. (Damn you Hapy!) As you might remember, one of Ptolemy II’s goals was to intensify crop production and work on the water system, transforming Fayoum into a fertile plain. However, with revolts and resentful attitudes, indigenous Egyptians looked at the Greeks as invaders, and it took decades for Egyptians to accept this new power structure. An artificial Macedonia was created, and introduced the system of nomarchies just as it had in Ptolemaic times. Both private and public landholds earned higher incomes, but the land was still residentially divided between Egyptian and Greeks. Trade under Roman rule provided a short but sweet production of luxury goods, but the government continued taxation and privatization of land. Eventually, the Roman Fayuum faded away. So what’s the big idea with this? There is obviously a power struggle here between a dominant and subordinate culture, and as we discussed previously, this struggle ends in appropriation for the benefit of the larger culture. Now that empires see the benefits of commercializing, Egypt starts to be perceived in an Orientalist lens, being described as interesting or mystic, therefore giving false worth to the products. Now that’s business. See it all now?
[Discussion]
PROSSER: Okay, so there was a LOT of change through the entire Greco-Roman period, and I have noticed many ideologies that completely change my personal idea of how I see Egypt already. But we conquered some big points, and I want to chill for a second before we dive into modern Egyptian systems that evolved through the mechanisms of technology, ethnocentrism, and foreign affairs.
[Section 3: Modern 26:35- 36:32]
[Subsection: Agriculture] techno music
PROSSER: So you wanna know how Egypt ends up? Ok calm down. Starting as early as 1869, tours of Egypt and the “Holy Land” were given on steamboats up and down the river. John Cook, the man who gave these tours had previously scouted the transatlantic market before. This travel through the river created revenue and encouraged travel, trade, and business to places they’d never been. Oh sorry. Cook called it the “Holy Land”? mysterious oRiEnTaL music Ah yes. Orientalism. This is important to acknowledge. You recall the definition of Orientalism, and the harmful Eastern stereotypes it perpetuates. This is a prime example of recognizing culture that is different and commercializing it for revenue; we can see in Cook’s case, it was his boat. Edward Said was really onto something in 1978. Finally, as we move into more recent times, there are a few dams. The High Aswan Dam is located in Aswan, Egypt and was built across the Nile River between 1960 and 1970, just before Said wrote “Orientalism”. It was mainly built to control flooding and early on in the plans and pre-builds for the dam, engineers found a way the dam could produce power as well.13 This water control and hydroelectric power is used to help increase the productivity and agricultural production of modern Egypt. Of course, there is political worry about the ecological effects of the dam. Amr, please tell us about your own research on this subject! background music
SHAHAT: Modern crops dating to after the High Dam time period, I found a huge drop in the fertility of the soil and this a striking, first hand finding to the anthropogenic impact of the dams on changing the ecology, the water system, and the fertility of the soil along the nile river countries. Now there are political committees saying they want to evaluate the damage of the dam. They argue they need a scientific committee to debate on environmental impacts. But there is no evidence the dam has ecological damage.
PROSSER: This is very interesting and also very important because the Aswan Dam is the most advanced technology for the use of agriculture along the Egyptian Nile River today. Comparing now to way back then in Pharaonic, this is quite obviously a huge change from the wooden machines or outdated agricultural calendars because irrigation is now completely regulated and controlled. background music ends The Nile has always been known as a place of life, but now we are able to see an increase in the means of productivity and therefore revenue, like what we see with surplus crops and the steamboat rides. All that leads up to what we know now which is a highly efficient renewable power source AND the agricultural benefit of a dam, being a very well calculated irrigation and controlled crop harvest. Dam(n)!
[Subsection: Culture]
PROSSER: Well let’s move back a little. Egypt moved into a postcolonial era in the mid-twentieth century with help of Nasser, the Suez Canal was freed from Western rule and the British were finally pushed out of Egypt. This was the start of the Egyptian revolution, and cultural and nationalistic ideologies started to flood Egypt. A new Egypt was on the rise, liberated from Western Egypt to look for a more self determining and nationalistic view to define what it meant to be a powerful pan-Arab state. Nasser, the leader of Egypt during the building of the Aswan Dam, wanted to move fast and engage in modernization the same way empires did, not so much thinking about the ramifications of quick cultural change towards Western ideals. This was soon taken over by a supremacist-like ideology that had blatant disregard for people’s separation from the Nile River and the water that flooded Nubian and Egyptian “temples, churches, mosques, art,” and homes.14Affecting many Nubian communities, there was noticeably less traditional family structure and the language was dying. There was a growing poverty rate which prompted the loss of so much ancient art and literature with no regard due to the Aswan Dam’s creation. Because of this destruction, the Egyptian government had sadly self-imposed damage to their own culture as well as destroyed many parts of Nubian culture just to control water and create power. Either way someone will argue the dam helped or didn’t, but there is an inexplicable truth when we cross the line into foreign relations.
[Subsection: Sociopolitical]
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PROSSER: Before we get very modern, let’s talk about Mohamed Ali and cotton with Amr.
SHAHAT: Mohamed Ali is native to Albania, and then came right after the political vacuum when the French colonialism left Egypt and he became the ruler of Egypt under the Turkish empire and then he announced his independence from Turkish empire and made Egypt his own center of an empire. He made a lot of changes in the agricultural system in Egypt. And what never got published or studied is that Mohamed Ali introduced cotton and some colonial crops even from the Americas like tobacco like the British got from Americas to Europe. He introduced them to Egypt before British colonialism even came to Egypt. He would help British colonialism during the invasion of the New World with troops from Egypt. background music The cotton as a cash crop dropped under a modern capitalism system but at the same time we still have this tobacco industry in Egypt. The original name was the Eastern Company, that’s what the British called it but under nationalism, we call it Cleopatra. laughs It’s still continued. This is how we internalized colonialism under modern times and we don’t remember this is from colonial history. background music ends
PROSSER: Exactly, moving forward into the modern period, the Council on Foreign Relations wrote the “Nile Waters Agreement”, looking to promote understanding of international relations and foreign policy concerning the Nile’s water usage and allocation to countries. The proposition and conversations of splitting water took place between the broad years of 1896 with the reconquering of Sudan by Egypt and Great Britain (jointly) and 1929 with the negotiation that Egypt remains the main user and “owner” of the Nile.15 Egypts recognition as a sovereign state and their push towards freedom as we discussed earlier, which pushed ideals of Egyptian nationalism. The negotiation of Aswan Dam began when the Low Dam, built in 1902, was overthrown. Egyptians at first weren’t interested, but eventually wanted the water to be stored in Egypt for political reasons. The United States and the USSR both wanted to help develop the dam, but it started to get complicated during the Cold War and growing “intra-Arab tensions”.16At this point, it was Egypt’s turn to engage in an alliance that was powerful and could help them become the sovereign state they fought for. As you recall Nasser claimed to lead Arab in its newfound nationalism, but realized he couldn’t unless he grew his military. Eventually with the help of the US, Britain, and USSR, $70 million dollars and arms were exchanged for Egyptian grain and cotton. However, as both deals were taken, the US and Britain withdrew their funds, and the Soviets gave them even more money to build the Aswan Dam. Both the Soviets and Egyptians provided engineers to work on the plans for the dam, threatening to submerge several historical sites, but the Soviets helped with a rescue mission as well. Even today, there is an Arab-Soviet Friendship memorial commemorating the Aswan Dam build completion in remembrance. These foreign relations were exactly what Egypt needed to be freed, and we see that change stands out in bold when you reverse back into history. In order to establish a strength in the world, it doesn’t necessarily have to be dominant, a country just felt the need to prove themselves after their liberation. While many people might not have even known this, it is crucial to know this information to talk about why and how we see Egypt or any other Eastern country a certain way.
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[Conclusion 36:33- 38:16- End]
PROSSER: So what did we learn today? Let’s look back.
We knocked out ancient Egypt punch noise, we talked about their irrigation systems punch noise, Hapy punch noise, and civilization building punch noise. Okay how about Greco Roman times? We have more irrigation advancements and economic growth. Do you remember there were highly organized miniature government districts? punch noise x3 Hold on, unfortunately these times heavily influenced how Westerners see in an Orientalist perspective. Ouch. In the modern times, there are even more commercialized and globalized forms of revenue along the Nile with transportation, business, and trade. punch noise Destructions of cultural material belonging to both Egypt and Nubia as well as the introduction to new nationalist ideologies prove Egyptian liberation. punch noise x2 Last but not even close to least, we recognized foreign relations with the Soviet Union tremendously helped Egypt in becoming a globally recognized sovereign nation as well as helping with the building of the modern irrigation and power system, the Aswan Dam. punch noise x5 woohoo!
Why did we learn this? We (Westerners) are blinded by the glorification and mysticism of ancient Egypt. We are fed stories like “Arabian Nights” and Aladdin forgetting that we are only being exposed to stereotypes and that we will rarely forget them even if we are conscious enough. To see both sides of a historically rich place, you must study many aspects over many time periods to see what has changed and how it can be improved upon or kept up. background music Well, that is all for today folks. Wow. Make sure to watch all the other episodes by Daniel, Gaby, Isabel, Sam and Sophia. Very special thanks to Robyn Price, our wonderful and insanely smart graduate instructor for this seminar. Also thank you to Deidre Whitmore for tips on recording podcasts, Martin Brennan for teaching about copyright, and Simon Lee, Jet Jacobs, and Katherine Kapsidelis for giving us research resources. This was Ruby, and thank you for listening to “The Journey of the Nile”. background music ends
Works Cited Adams, Colin. “Stimuli for Irrigation, Agriculture, and Quarrying.” A Companion to Greco‐Roman and Late Antique Egypt (2019): 233-250. Accessed 14 Apr. 2020.
AlSayyad, Nezar. “A Nile Oasis in the Sahara: Fayoum of the Ptolemies.” Nile: Urban Histories on the Banks of a River, Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 2019, pp. 125–138. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.3366/j.ctvrxk18d.15. Accessed 1 May 2020.
AlSayyad, Nezar. “The Birth of the Nile: Water Carves a Path through Rugged Land.” Nile:
Urban Histories on the Banks of a River, Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 2019, pp. 29–46. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.3366/j.ctvrxk18d.9. Accessed 14 Apr. 2020.
AlSayyad, Nezar.“The Nile of Lower Egypt: Memphis, the First Capital City.” Nile: Urban Histories on the Banks of a River, Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 2019, pp. 47–60. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/10.3366/j.ctvrxk18d.10. Accessed 14 Apr. 2020.
Collins, Robert O. (2000). “In Search of the Nile Waters, 1900–2000”. The Nile: Histories, Cultures, Myths. Edited by Haggai Erlich and Israel Gershoni. Lynne Rienner. pp. 181–256.
Crabitès, Pierre. “The Nile Waters Agreement.” Foreign Affairs, vol. 8, no. 1, 1929, pp. 145–149. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/20028752. Accessed 14 Apr. 2020.
Cross, F. M. 2003 Leaves from an Epigrapher’s Notebook: Collected Papers in Hebrew and West Semitic Palaeography and Epigraphy. Harvard Semitic Studies 51. Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns.
El – Sawi, Ahmed. “THE NILE – GOD. AN UNUSUAL REPRESENTATION IN THE TEMPLE OF SETY I AT ABYDOS.” Egitto e Vicino Oriente, vol. 6, 1983, pp. 7–13. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/24232650. Accessed 1 May 2020.
Kákosy, László. “The Nile, Euthenia, and the Nymphs.” The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, vol. 68, 1982, pp. 290–298. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/3821647. Accessed 1 May 2020.
Kemp, Barry J. “How religious were the ancient Egyptians?.” Cambridge Archaeological Journal 5.1 (1995): 25-54.
Manning, Joseph Gilbert. The last pharaohs: Egypt under the Ptolemies, 305-30 BC. Princeton University Press, 2012.
Moor, Antoine de, Cäcilia Fluck, and Petra Linscheid (eds) 2017. Excavating, analysing, reconstructing textiles of the 1st millennium AD from Egypt and neighbouring countries: proceedings of the 9th conference of the research group “Textiles from the Nile Valley”, Antwerp, 27-29 November 2015. Tielt: Lannoo.
Parker, Richard. The Calendars of Ancient Egypt. Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization 26.
Chicago, 1950, University of Chicago Press. Accessed 17 May 2020.
Rahmstorf, Lorenz and Edward Stratford (eds) 2019. Weights and marketplaces from the Bronze Age to the Early Modern period: proceedings of two workshops funded by the European Research Council (ERC). Weight & Value 1. Kiel; Hamburg: Wachholtz; Murmann. Reid, Donald Malcolm. Whose Pharaohs?: Archaeology, Museums, and Egyptian National Identity from
Napoleon to World War I. Univ of California Press, 2003.
Rossetti, Ilaria. “ResHapyng the urban space: Bakchias in Ptolemaic and Roman times.” Archeologia e Calcolatori 28.2 (2017): 291-300.
Shaw, Ian, ed. The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt. Oxford University Press, 2003.
Shenoda, Matthew. “Damming the Nile: A Poet’s Ecology.” Prairie Schooner, vol. 90, no. 3, 2016, pp. 40–50. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/44985084. Accessed 1 May 2020.
Thomas, Harold A., and Roger Revelle. “On the Efficient Use of High Aswan Dam for Hydropower and Irrigation.” Management Science, vol. 12, no. 8, 1966, pp. B296–B311. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/2628098. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
“Valley Sunset”, “Forest Treasure”, “Break Away”, MixKit, 2020. https://mixkit.co/.
Watterson, Barbara. The Egyptians. Wiley-Blackwell, 1998. https://www.purple-planet.com/newest-tracks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3rZPuyydKg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HDDjHEKfn0
Ancient festivals/religion
11:36- 12:48
Hapy
12:52- 13:53
1 alSayyad, Nezar. “The Birth of the Nile: Water Carves a Path through Rugged Land.” Nile: Urban Histories on the Banks of a River, Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 2019, pp. 29–46. 2 Kákosy, László. “The Nile, Euthenia, and the Nymphs.” The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, vol. 68, 1982, pp. 290–298.3 alSayyad, Nezar.“The Nile of Lower Egypt: Memphis, the First Capital City.” Nile: Urban Histories on the Banks of a River, Edinburgh University Press, Edinburgh, 2019, pp. 47–60. 4 Shaw, Ian, ed. The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt. Oxford University Press, 2003.5 Moor, Antoine de. Excavating, analysing, reconstructing textiles of the 1st millennium AD from Egypt and neighbouring countries: proceedings of the 9th conference of the research group “Textiles from the Nile Valley”, Antwerp, 27-29 November 2015. Tielt: Lannoo.6 Parker, Richard. The Calendars of Ancient Egypt. Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization 26. Chicago, 1950, University of Chicago Press 7 Kemp, Barry J. “How religious were the ancient Egyptians?.” Cambridge Archaeological Journal 5.1 (1995): 25-54.8 El – Sawi, Ahmed. “THE NILE – GOD. AN UNUSUAL REPRESENTATION IN THE TEMPLE OF SETY I AT ABYDOS.” Egitto e Vicino Oriente, vol. 6, 1983, pp. 7–13.9 Watterson, Barbara. The Egyptians. Wiley-Blackwell, 1998.10 Adams, Colin. “Stimuli for Irrigation, Agriculture, and Quarrying.” A Companion to Greco‐Roman and Late Antique Egypt (2019): 233-250. Accessed 14 Apr. 2020.11 Manning, Joseph Gilbert. The last pharaohs: Egypt under the Ptolemies, 305-30 BC. Princeton University Press, 2012.12 Reid, Donald Malcolm. Whose Pharaohs?: Archaeology, Museums, and Egyptian National Identity from Napoleon to World War I. Univ of California Press, 2003.13 Thomas, Harold A., and Roger Revelle. “On the Efficient Use of High Aswan Dam for Hydropower and Irrigation.” Management Science, vol. 12, no. 8, 1966, pp. B296–B311.14 Shenoda, Matthew. “Damming the Nile: A Poet’s Ecology.” Prairie Schooner, vol. 90, no. 3,2016, pp. 40–50.15 Crabitès, Pierre. “The Nile Waters Agreement.” Foreign Affairs, vol. 8, no. 1, 1929, pp. 145–149.16 Collins, Robert O. “In Search of the Nile Waters, 1900–2000”. The Nile: Histories, Cultures, Myths. Edited by Haggai Erlich and Israel Gershoni. 2000, pp. 181–256.
You’ve probably heard of the famous King Tut. Be it museum exhibits or Tut-themed paraphernalia, it seems like the whole world is obsessed with this boy king. But why does he so enamor us today, and how have our depictions of him created and perpetrated an Orientalist narrative that has had negative consequences in both the past and the present? Listen in to find out!
Isabel Dawson
Undergraduate, UCLA
Rowan Dawson
Student, Redwood HS
Rebecca Dawson
Student, Redwood HS
Featuring: Maryan Ragheb
PhD Candidate,
UCLA
Transcript Section 1: Introductions (0:00)
ISABEL DAWSON: When you think about Ancient Egypt, who or what comes to mind? Is it the pyramids at Giza? Is it the Nile river? Is it the gods, like Anubis or Ra?
REBECCA DAWSON: If you’re like us, you’ll think of the famous King Tut. You might even picture his golden mask, perhaps one of the most well-known artifacts to ever come out of Ancient Egypt.
ISABEL: But have you ever wondered who Tut really was? How someone who lived and died thousands of years ago continues to influence our world today?
ROWAN DAWSON: And does that mask even belong to him? Well, more on that later.
ISABEL: I’m Isabel Dawson-
ROWAN: -I’m Rowan Dawson-
REBECCA: -and I’m Rebecca Dawson. We’re recording this today in the closet of our home. We’re so excited to be talking about King Tutankhamun today, and we hope you listeners are just as excited to hear about him too.
ISABEL: This is episode 3 of season 2 of Now as Then, an ongoing podcast series about the perception of Ancient Egypt throughout time. Our episode, “Tutmania,” intends to delve deeper than the superficial knowledge most people have of the famous boy king today.
ROWAN: First, we’ll go back to Ancient Egypt in the 18th dynasty to talk about Tut’s reign itself and the political and religious mess he found himself with. His family, and their policies, became pretty important here. We’ll also discuss his immediate legacy…or should I say, lack of it.
REBECCA: Then we’ll jump to the 20th century, starting with Howard Carter’s excavation of his tomb and the Tutmania that swept through Europe to the impacts on the field of Egyptology that these findings held.
ISABEL: Last, and certainly not least, we’ll discuss how we, in the modern day, perceive King Tut. From the souvenirs and movies he’s inspired, to his status as the icon for Ancient Egypt in pop culture…and to how our Western depictions of him ultimately contribute to the harmful idea of Orientalism…there’s a lot to say, and we’ll get to all that. But first, we need to go to the past…
Section 2: King Tut’s Reign (2:26)
ROWAN: So, King Tut must’ve been a pretty good ruler, right? He had that tomb full of treasure, and I’d say he’s the most famous pharaoh now.
REBECCA: Yeah, I saw that movie, uh, The Curse of King Tut’s Tomb? Tut saves all of Egypt. He’s the good guy, the hero. 1
ROWAN: He also fires lasers and has mechanical golden wings—I wouldn’t count on Hollywood for accuracy…but anyways, he must’ve been pretty influential for his time, right?2
ISABEL: Well, not quite. To understand King Tut’s reign, we have to examine Akhenaten, the pharaoh believed to be Tut’s father. You see, Egypt had this long history of polytheism, and they worshipped a large pantheon of gods, including Amun. Akhenaten, however, changed all this. He moved from the traditional capital Thebes to a new one he created in present-day Amarna which was called Akhetaten, or “the Horizon of Aten.” Instead of worshipping Amun and the gods Egypt had for centuries, he uprooted religious tradition to worship a single god, the Sun Disc Aten. Akhenaten wanted to remove funding from the temples of Amun and to effectively erase the deity from history.3 Now, you can understand this wasn’t a very popular idea. Causing religious upheaval isn’t really the best way to gain the favor of those around you. But let’s get back to King Tut. His reign was spent reversing Akhenaten’s policies. He reestablished the worship of Amun, which can also be seen reflected in his name: originally Tutankhaten, he changed it to Tut-ankh-AMUN, which roughly translates to “all life is in the hands of Amun.” He left Amarna and worked to restore the religious traditions Egypt had been following for centuries.4
ROWAN: So why isn’t he the hero, then?
REBECCA: Well, despite doing all of this, his name was tarnished because of its association to his father. We know this because of artifacts like the Abydos King List, which was found in the temple of Ramses II, who reigned in the 19th dynasty. See, these king lists weren’t really used to give an accurate, chronological list of all the pharaohs that previously reigned. Instead, they listed the names of kings seen as legitimate—kings the pharaohs of the 19th dynasty, in this case, approved of. In the Abydos King List, the name of Tutankhamun is missing. Actually, the whole Amarna period is missing.5 This tells us a lot about how the rulers who came after him wanted him to be remembered. They didn’t want anything associated with the Amarna period and its religious upheaval to be acknowledged. His legacy was all but erased after he died.
ISABEL: Speaking of which, how did he die?
ROWAN: There’s been tons of theories over the years. It could’ve been a number of things that ultimately brought about his early death. No one knows for sure, but it was probably a mixture of a malaria infection and poor health. He had a clubbed foot and probably had to walk with a cane—you can actually find a lot of those in his tomb. There’s also evidence of a leg fracture and infection. Other theories suggest diseased bones or other accidents. A lot of his health problems probably stemmed from the fact that he was a product of incest. His only two daughters were also inbred and were stillborn. Their mummies were found in his tomb, too.6
REBECCA: Oh, how sad.
ROWAN: His tomb itself seems to suggest it was prepared quickly—I mean, no one expects a 19 year old to die. For one, it’s much smaller than any other king’s—it was probably meant for an official, but was just repurposed for his use. There’s even brown marks where mold must’ve been on the paintings on the tomb walls. That means that the paint wasn’t even dry yet before the tomb was sealed .7 His life was truly too short.
ISABEL: The more I learn about King Tut, the sadder I get. His reign was cut short with an early death at the age of 19, and despite doing all he could to restore Egypt’s religious traditions, his name was tarnished. His story is really very tragic.
REBECCA: Yeah, he wasn’t seen as a hero like in the movies, at least in his time. But all those details don’t make for a sellable narrative, I guess. Anyways, as I mentioned before, Tutankhamun was basically unknown to the world for centuries after his death. That is, until, the year 1922.
Section 3: Tomb Discovery (6:43)
ISABEL: “Friday, October 27, 1922: Left Cairo for Luxor.”
“Wednesday, November 1: Commenced operations in the Valley of the Kings…”
“Saturday, November 4: At about 10am I discovered beneath almost the first hut attacked the first traces of the entrance of the tomb Tutankhamen…”
“Sunday, November 5: Here before us was sufficient evidence to show that it really was an entrance to a tomb, and by the seals, to all outward appearances that it was intact…I was much puzzled by the smallness of the opening in comparison with those of other royal tombs in the valley. Its design was certainly of the 18th Dynasty. Could it be the tomb of a noble, buried there by royal consent? Or was it a royal cache?”
“Sunday, November 26: Feverishly we cleared away the remaining last scraps of rubbish on the floor of the passage before the doorway, until we had only the clean sealed doorway before us…It was sometime before one could see, the hot air escaping caused the candle to flicker, but as soon as one’s eyes became accustomed to the glimmer of light the interior of the chamber gradually loomed before one, with its strange and wonderful medley of extraordinary and beautiful objects heaped upon one another. There was naturally short suspense for those present who could not see, when Lord Carnarvon said to me Can you see anything’. I replied to himYes, it’s wonderful.’”8
You just heard excerpts from the diary of Howard Carter, the man credited with discovering King Tut’s tomb.
REBECCA: So what “wonderful” things did Carter find?
ROWAN: Plenty of things, and practically everything intact which was definitely rare as many tombs were plundered. One of the reasons Tut’s tomb was so special was because it had only been robbed twice, probably close to his funeral, and almost everything was left behind. This gave us an insight into what a more undisturbed tomb would have looked like. But back to the “treasure:” There were chests, huge alabaster vases holding fragrant oils, animal-shaped couches and stools, jewelry, golden fans, shrines…the list goes on.9 The tomb was truly packed with stuff, as can be seen from the excavation photos. Artifacts were piled on top of each other, and there wasn’t much room to work.10
REBECCA: What was the significance of all these items? What do they tell us about what ancient Egyptians thought about their kings and the afterlife?
ISABEL: They tell us a lot! Inscriptions on the chest Rowan mentioned earlier say Tut will be blessed with all the benefits one can have when they enter the afterlife, like wine and incense.11 The paintings on the walls of the Burial Chamber are also really important artifacts and generally depict the acceptance of the pharaoh into the afterlife. The North Wall shows the Opening of the Mouth ceremony, where Tut is depicted as Osiris and his successor Ay claims legitimacy to inherit the throne. Another scene shows Nut welcoming the deceased king into eternal life. The South Wall depicts the gods Hathor, Anubis and Isis, also holding symbols of welcome.12 As you can see, these paintings really emphasize the idea of the afterlife as eternal life. Though Tut’s time on earth may have come to an early end, he would still live forever. Even though he was associated with such a controversial period, King Tut was still given a proper burial.
REBECCA: Wow, this all must’ve been a really amazing discovery at the time. I’m guessing news got out fast, huh?
ISABEL: That it did. People came from far and wide to get a peek at Tut’s tomb. Photographers would camp out just to snap shots of the artifacts being taken out.13 And this fascination wasn’t just limited to Egypt. By now, the Western world was already obsessed with Ancient Egypt, and the discovery of Tut’s tomb only furthered this. Actually, there’s a lot of interesting advertisements from the early 20th century and even before then, all of them Egypt-themed. You’ve got books like The Kiss of Pharaoh: The Love Story of Tut-Anch-Amen that definitely takes some artistic license, but people loved them because it was riding on this “Tutmania” idea.14 There’s even companies using imagery of Tut and Egypt-related things to advertise their products. You’ve got things like “King Tut cologne” and “Touth-Ankh-Amon Pharaoh Scent.”15
REBECCA: Hm, I don’t know about you, but I don’t really want to be smelling like a three thousand year old mummy.
ISABEL: Me neither, but it’s for the hype, you know? Anyways, people even wrote songs about him, though the lyrics were pretty inaccurate. This was because this stuff was even happening before the tomb and his body were completely excavated and documented—people didn’t know the facts, but they didn’t need those to let their fantasies and misconceptions about Ancient Egypt run wild.
ROWAN: That’s how you got the early misconception of Tut being an old man. Songs like “Old King Tut was a Wise Old Nut” and drawings always depicting him that way, before they realized the body they were looking at was that of a young adult’s.16
ISABEL: Even the idea of a curse associated with King Tut’s tomb was spread. That’s because some of the people who were involved with the excavation, like Lord Carnarvon, died.17 Even though it was of natural causes, people popularized the idea of a curse. Of course, this was totally untrue, but if you just look at the media today, it’s saturated with the idea of a “mummy’s curse.”
ROWAN: I guess they thought it was more interesting to die of a “curse” than an infected mosquito bite.
REBECCA: Maybe so. So we know there definitely was a huge interest in Tut in the early 20th century, and we can extend that to all of Ancient Egypt in general. But why? Why were people so obsessed with Tut? What made him so special?
ISABEL: For that, let’s ask our special guest speaker, Maryan Ragheb! Hello Maryan, it’s so nice to have you speaking with us today. Could you please introduce yourself to our listeners?
MARYAN RAGHEB: So, I’m Maryan Ragheb. I’m an Egyptian Egyptologist/archaeologist. I’m studying archeology at the Cotsen Institute at UCLA, and I’m on my second year now, so I’m supposed to advance to candidacy by the end of this year, so within a month. I, my main focus is Ancient Egyptian archaeology and my topic is related to craft production of body adornments at the time of state formation.
ISABEL: The field of Egyptology was already well known in the Western world even before the excavation of King Tut’s tomb. What made King Tut different from other pharaohs and tomb excavations that caused the people of the early 20th century to be so obsessed with him? Why is there a “Tutmania” but no mania for other findings?
RAGHEB: So the most obvious answer is because Tut’s tomb is the only royal tomb that was mostly intact—not entirely intact—and, so, it’s something that hasn’t been heard of before at the time. Later on they found other royal tombs that have also been intact, but they’re not—they don’t come from this golden era of Tutankhamun and Hatshepsut and that stuff. So that’s an obvious answer, but also I think Carter and Lord Carnarvon did a very good job at publicizing the discovery for so many reasons: to get more like, media attention, and therefore heightening the importance of their discovery, making—having some sort of leverage over the Egyptian government at the time, maybe to advocate their rights, which is very an imperialist thought, but like their right to get the, the, the objects that were found in the tomb. So there were so many reasons why they were so keen on having a lot of important public figures and a lot of press going as they were preparing the tomb and stuff. And that definitely like, heightened things up, and in an unexpected turn of events, because Lord Carnarvon sold the rights to publish about the tomb discovery to the London Times, so other press started publicizing about rumors of the mummy curse, or the Tut curse. So it’s almost like it’s all related. Of course there were, there was no curse or anything.
ISABEL: We were talking about Western depictions of Ancient Egypt in the early 1900s, and the idea of a “mummy curse” came up. What do you think are problems with the idea of a curse associated with Egyptian tombs? How does this paint the Ancient Egyptians to the world in mass media?
RAGHEB: I mean it was definitely a very good subject for movies, and, don’t get me wrong, I love the movies. I think it just heightened the people’s interest in Ancient Egypt, this sort of mysterious culture and mysterious magic and stuff. And for some odd reason, they—even though there is this mummy curse, people always want to see the mummies in the Egyptian Museum for example or in any museum, having a mummy on display is something that is, like a masterpiece for a lot of people.
REBECCA: As Tut gained popularity in the West, so did inaccurate depictions of Ancient Egypt. Whether it was companies using his name to make their products more “mystical,” or books and illustrations depicting him surrounded by women, one thing was for sure: the Western image of who Tut was thought to be—romantic and exotic—was being spread and would continue to influence how people thought of him and Ancient Egypt.
ROWAN: “Old King Tut’s” popularity doesn’t die out yet. Let’s go to the present to see what’s become of him.
Section 4: Tut in the Modern Day (16:50)
ISABEL: You stare into a face of gleaming gold. Two black eyes stare back.18 The expression seems indifferent, or is it thoughtful? Whatever it is, the mask of Tutankhamun is timeless: created by the Ancient Egyptians centuries ago, and now admired by millions all over the world, centuries later. Currently, the mask is housed in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, but it and other artifacts from Tut’s tomb have traveled all over the world since their discovery in the early 1900s.
REBECCA: In 1977, an exhibition called “The Treasures of Tutankhamun” toured the US. This sparked newfound interest in Egyptology, bringing a somewhat exclusive field into the public eye. Many flocked to see the shiny gold artifacts, leading a wave of “Tutmania”. And of course, good ol’ capitalism wasn’t far behind—plenty of Tut themed paraphernalia was created: from T-shirts to toys to posters, there was everything.19
ROWAN: Of course, this commodification of Tut didn’t go un-criticized.
In 1978, Steve Martin performed his song “King Tut” on Saturday Night Live. Donning some stereotypical Egyptian garb and accompanied by similarly dressed dancers and musicians, he satirized the newfound popularity of Tut and how this man from thousands of years ago was like a celebrity with people making toys and trinkets about him.20
ISABEL: I think my favorite line from that song is “He gave his life…for tourism.”21 To me it really perfectly sums up what Tut became in the public eye. Forget history—people want to see and make bank on this mysterious pharaoh from Ancient Egypt.
REBECCA: And make bank they did. But it wasn’t just mass consumerism that made Tut so attractive. In Melani McAlister’s book chapter “The Common Heritage of Mankind: Race, Nation, and Masculinity in the King Tut Exhibit,” she writes that Tut was also seen as a symbol of Black identity and history for some African Americans. For example, in 1978, LA city mayor Tom Bradley created a King Tut day in February, explicitly linking Tut to Black History Month.22 Tut was no longer just an ancient pharaoh from a distant society—he was a celebration of Black history.
ISABEL: This claiming of Tut as Black stemmed from the Afrocentric approach to Egyptology—the belief that Egypt was a Black society. Let’s go back to the Atlantic slave trade, where Black people were stripped of their cultures and written off as “uncivilized” and “childlike” by Western powers in order to justify putting them into slavery. After years of being fed this propaganda that they were somehow inferior, knowledge of Ancient Egypt came along. Finally, there was a “civilized” Black society—or at least one that even white people recognized as “civilized,” whatever that means.23
REBECCA: Many Black scholars advocated for this idea of a Black Egypt. It was a way to uplift their communities after centuries of cruelty and inequality. It showed that Black people did have an impactful culture and put African history on equal terms with white history.24
ISABEL: But even the idea that African history needs to somehow get on the same level as white history is so incredibly racist. Why does Europe and North America get to “set the bar” here? Unfortunately, that was the society people were—and still are—living in. Anyways, many of these Afrocentric beliefs did not go uncriticized. Many Egyptologists have said that some claims, like Egypt being the source of all African culture, are inaccurate. Or that certain Afrocentric theories just don’t add up.25 But criticism can be controversial and biased—especially in the context of Black oppression in America and the predominantly white field of Egyptology.
ROWAN: So what would the Ancient Egyptians say? Well, back in Tut’s own time, labels like “black” or “white” didn’t hold the same connotations that they do today. But let’s think back to those early depictions of Tutankhamun and Egypt that appeared decades earlier. The illustrations that went along with things like the “Touth-Ankh-Amon fragrance” and the “Old King Tut” song depicted him and the Ancient Egyptians as light-skinned, or with very western European features.26 And it’s important to note these depictions are either Western in origin or catering to Western audiences.
ISABEL: What is the significance of Tut becoming a symbol of Black history, especially considering how so many depictions of him and Ancient Egypt have been whitewashed? Maryan weighs in.
RAGHEB: That is also a very sensitive subject. Claiming Tut as Black is something that a lot of African Americans do and it’s their identity, they identify with this culture so that’s perfectly fine. And the reason they’re taking Tut as a symbol is because he’s a symbol of Ancient Egypt in general, like a lot of people, they don’t know anything about Ancient Egypt except Tut and the pyramids. And gold, again. So that’s understandable. The way Hollywood depicts Egyptians, or Ancient Egyptians, is, as you said, is very whitewashed. I never thought that Jaime Lannister would ever be Horus, who would’ve thought? But the problem is that if you want to do something more accurate, you have to kind of give up this Western idea of race and ethnicity because it’s different in different parts of the world. So in, in most parts of the world, people, like we don’t consider ourselves white, so why are you putting that person in? You could put someone whose more Middle Eastern. You can put even someone whose Black, that’s a very valid portrayal of Ancient Egypt because there were a lot of Nubians, there were a lot of people from different cultures, but not European white…that is, yeah…but, um, I don’t know, like I don’t necessarily see it as “Black” or “white,” it’s just not just white. Like you can put in a lot of ethnicities and it will still be an accurate portrayal.
REBECCA: Regardless of whether Tut was actually Black by modern standards, there is no doubt that he, and by extension Ancient Egypt, are powerful symbols of identity and achievement for a group of people that have been historically ripped from their cultures and denied recognition or equality in white societies.
ROWAN: And rather than just a symbol of Black history, King Tut has become one of the most well-known symbols of Ancient Egyptian culture to the world.
ISABEL: Yeah—Tut’s popularity in pop culture nowadays has allowed many people to be introduced to Ancient Egyptian culture through his depictions in books, film, and art. But how accurate are these depictions? What sorts or misconceptions do they create about King Tut and Ancient Egypt?
RAGHEB: Um, most of them are not that accurate, although there has been some attempts to make some sort of accurate depictions. But I would say that most of the movies about Tut and Ancient Egypt in general are not that accurate. I mean, The Mummy is one example, and Gods of Egypt, don’t get—don’t get me started talking about Gods of Egypt! But, yeah, so, they not only depict a lot of the historical facts wrongly, but they also, their depictions of modern Egypt is not accurate either. It—it’s kind of stereotyped, in a way. I mean for Ancient Egypt it’s, it’s just the way they dress is very exaggerated. Uh, the cities, sometimes they kind of mix things, like the, they put up a set that looks like a marketplace from, I don’t know, a Persian or an Islamic period kind of marketplace instead of an Ancient Egyptian one. So these kinds of things are very, um, I would say it sends this idea of all these exotic people who are backward, or, or just like evil, because they own some un-understandable magic, or, yeah.
ROWAN: Speaking of misconceptions, know what’s really interesting about King Tut’s mask?
REBECCA: What?
ROWAN: New studies show that it didn’t even belong to him in the first place. If you look at it closely, you can see there’s a place where another name was scratched out. That’s the name of Nefertiti, Akhenaten’s co-ruler and wife.27
REBECCA: Wow, really?
ROWAN: There’s more evidence, too. While initially covered with gold foil, the ears on his mask have piercings, which could mean it was supposed to be depicting a woman. The other materials in his tomb were also probably repurposed Nefertiti goods.28
REBECCA: It’s so strange to think that the mask practically everyone associates with King Tut wasn’t even originally his at all, nor was it depicting his likeness. It’s like everything that’s popularized in the mainstream media about him is just a…misconception.
ISABEL: I think you’re getting it here. So many of the ideas we have about Tut and Ancient Egypt just…aren’t true. And more things are discovered and more ideas refuted all the time, as the field of Egyptology grows.
REBECCA: You know, I agree that it’s probably important for Egyptologists to know details about King Tut, like his mask and stuff, but why would the average person be aware of these things? Why is all this ancient stuff still relevant? Why should we care?
ISABEL: I agree that maybe the average person doesn’t need to know all the details of all the paintings in Tut’s tomb. I think things like his mask, though, represent just the tip of the iceberg on misconceptions about him and Ancient Egypt. The impact of these misconceptions aren’t just that the average person doesn’t know about these details. These depictions of King Tut have much more far-reaching and long-term consequences, one such being the idea of Orientalism, named so by professor Edward Said.
ROWAN: Orientalism is the lens through which the West—Europe and North America—view the Middle East. Historically, it has been used as a tool to justify imperialism and colonization in these regions by painting the Middle East as a place that couldn’t take care of itself and needed to be controlled. Orientalism homogenizes, demonizes, and “others” groups of people.29 Middle Eastern women are shown as submissive yet sensual, and Middle Eastern men are shown as barbaric. And just like the early depictions of King Tut that we have, Orientalism isn’t based on any real facts—it stems from and is perpetuated by Western imagination.
ISABEL: So how does this all connect back to Tut and how he’s portrayed in Western pop culture?
RAGHEB: So, modern Orientalism kind of puts Egypt within this context of this backward country, where, it’s, the Europeans are going there to excavate and to find the ancient Egyptian stuff, which, yes, there are a lot of European or Western archaeologists working in Egypt, but that also undermines a lot of the work that Egyptian scholars are doing. So in these movies or in these media, it’s always the Westerners excavating and then just the Egyptians are the workers who are carrying the stuff. And although this was true at the time of Lord Carnarvon and Carter, but that has changed over time. So if you’re depicting a movie um, like uh what was it I think it was The Pyramids? It was this low-budget horror movie at some point and it was about this excavation team digging an unheard of pyramid before and they just got in and they all get killed inside the pyramid. But the whole set up of these, of these, of this excavation team is just wrong—it’s not a depiction of reality, and it only reinforces certain ideas about Egypt being all desert, all uneducated people, and for that movie for example, this event happened supposedly during the time of the 2011 revolution which was a political revolution that occurred in Egypt quite recently, and they’re showing it as completely chaotic and everything…and it’s just, it kind of…it’s a superficial way of dealing with the complexities of modern Egyptian societies as well as Ancient Egyptian societies. Uh, when we’re talking about movies that are strictly Ancient Egypt, you always find a lot of gold, just so much gold, and a lot of evil characters, and it’s just, it’s, it’s not letting people in on the real complexity of the culture in Ancient Egypt and in modern Egypt. Yeah, so I think that it reinforces this idea of Orientalism. However if we’re talking about exaggeration as something to attract the public and make them more interested in Ancient Egypt, that definitely works, unfortunately, it works.
ROWAN: Tut represents our fascination with Ancient Egypt and wanting it to be all these things it just…isn’t.
REBECCA: It’s just like that movie I was talking about—The Curse of King Tut’s Tomb. It hits all the marks—Tut is more godlike than human, the actual history of his reign is basically nonexistent, and “big name” gods from the Ancient Egyptian religion are just cherry-picked to make the story more dramatic.30 This depiction is similar to the ones we’ve already seen so many times before—it’s told from a Western perspective. The story is told from the point of view of a white man who is the main character and the hero. Tut’s played by a white actor, too! And I get that it’s Hollywood and we should expect some fantastical elements, but these depictions aren’t doing much to help the West’s perception of Tut or Ancient Egypt.
ISABEL: The whole idea of Tut is romanticized. Popular media doesn’t know and doesn’t really care about his real story, how he fits into the Ancient Egyptian world, or what we can learn from his reign and erased legacy. They care more about the superhero Tut, the shiny, mysterious Tut with a tomb that might curse you. They care about the fantasy Tut that can sell the most souvenirs and make the most movies. And unfortunately, this image of Tut contributes to Edward Said’s idea of Orientalism, which romanticizes, generalizes and exotifies Egypt. As long as Tut is this mystical figure rather than the tragic boy king he really was, this Orientalist view of ancient Egypt will be perpetuated.
Section 5: Conclusion (32:36)
ISABEL: King Tutankhamun’s short reign was spent trying to reverse his father’s policies and restore religious stability to Egypt. Despite his efforts, he died young and his legacy was all but erased after his death, the next dynasties not wanting to remember the controversial Amarna period. Tut went unknown for centuries until his tomb was discovered by Howard Carter in 1922, and this discovery helped fuel the already exploding infatuation with Ancient Egypt. Tut-themed ads, consumer goods, and songs were spread in popular media, as well as the inaccurate and often harmful portrayals of an “exotic” Egypt.
REBECCA: And the hype didn’t stop there. King Tut became even more popular in the 70s, when millions came to see the artifacts from his tomb as they toured the US. Just like in the 20s, the pharaoh was romanticized, sensationalized, and commercialized for the consumption of the masses. For some, he also became a symbol of Black history and identity—a significant movement in the Western world which had often depicted Tut and Ancient Egyptians as white.
ROWAN: Today, the boy king that had an arguably insignificant reign and legacy has become the most famous pharaoh and icon of Ancient Egypt. This can be seen in pop culture—especially movies—that favor fantastical narratives that feed into stereotypes, rather than accurate portrayals.
REBECCA: Knowing all this, how should we move forward? The depictions of King Tut we’ve had thus far may have been entertaining to some, but ultimately, they’ve contributed to the harmful romanticization and exotification of Ancient Egypt that still paints the Middle East as “different” today. On a larger scale, these ideas have been used to justify colonization, racism, and stereotyping. So now what? Do we denounce these films and books? Should we put disclaimers before every one? I think it’ll take a lot more than that to undo decades of misrepresentation.
ISABEL: If anything, having conversations like these is a good start. There’s a lot to unpack with Orientalism, and Western perceptions of King Tut just barely graze the surface. Going forward, when we look at these depictions of figures from societies that are not our own, we should be aware of who is telling the story and what their motives are. Is it a company trying to get you to buy some fancy, “exotic” item?
REBECCA: That can really change things. And we hope you all—the listeners—take this sentiment with you in your daily lives.
ISABEL: We want to thank everyone who made this episode possible: our guest speaker Maryan, who gave us such insightful information on King Tut; Deidre Whitmore for tips and tricks on recording audio; Martin Brennan for navigating copyright; Simon Lee, Jet Jacobs, and Katherine Kapsidelis for giving us research resources; our teacher Robyn Price for guiding us in this project, and our listeners for showing interest in King Tut himself! This was Isabel-
ROWAN: -Rowan-
REBECCA: -and Rebecca, and we hope you enjoyed “Tutmania.” Make sure to check out the next episode, “The Purpose of Isis,” too. Thanks for listening!
Works Cited Abydos King List. 1250BC. The British Museum, https://research.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=177487&partId=1.
Benderitter, Thierry. “TUTANKHAMUN-KV62.” Edited by Jeremy Steele. Translated by Jon Hirst, Osirisnet, Osirisnet, osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/toutankhamon/e_toutankhamon_01.htm. Accessed 15 Apr. 2020.
Brier, Bob. 2013. Egypt-omania: our three thousand year obsession with the land of the pharaohs. New York: Palgrave Macmillan.
Carter, Howard. Tutankhamun: Anatomy of an Excavation, 1922. Edited by Elizabeth Flemings, et al., Griffith Institute, 2010, www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/4sea1not.html. Accessed 29 April 2020.
David, Rosalie. “Early Study and the Unwrapping of Mummies.” The Oxford Handbook of the Valley of the Kings, edited by Richard H. Wilkinson and Kent R. Weeks, Oxford University Press, 2015. Oxford Handbooks Online, doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199931637.013.025. Accessed 15 Ap. 2020.
“Dystopia.” 152. Mixkit, mixkit.co/free-stock-music/.
Fritze, Ronald H. Egyptomania a history of fascination, obsession and fantasy. London: Reaktion Books, 2017.
“King Tut – SNL.” Youtube, uploaded by Saturday Night Live, 10 Sep. 2013, www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYbavuReVF4.
McAlister, Melani. “‘The Common Heritage of Mankind’: Race, Nation, and Masculinity in the King Tut Exhibit.” Representations, no. 54, 1996, pp. 80–103. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/2928693. Accessed 15 Apr. 2020.
Mulcahy, Russel, director. The Curse of King Tut’s Tomb. Hallmark Entertainment, 2006.
Palestine Diary. “Edward Said On Orientalism.” Youtube, 28 Oct. 2012, www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVC8EYd_Z_g.
Reeves, Nicholas. “Everywhere the Glint of Gold: The Mystery of Tutankhamun’s mask.” The Octavian Report, vol. 1, no. 3, June 2015, pp. 29. Academia, www.academia.edu/13929303/Everywhere_the_Glint_of_Gold_The_Mystery_of_Tutankhamuns_Mask_2015_. Accessed 29 April 2020.
“Serene View.” 443. Mixkit, mixkit.co/free-stock-music/.
Smithsonian Institution. Tutankhamun Treasures: A Loan Exhibition From the Department of Antiquities of the United Arab Republic. American Association of Museums and the Smithsonian Institution, 1961. HathiTrust Digital Library, https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015048541752. Accessed 15 Apr. 2020
“The King.” 857. Mixkit, mixkit.co/free-stock-music/.
“Tutankhamun.” The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, vol. 34, no. 3, 1976, pp. 1–48. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/3269009. Accessed 15 Apr. 2020.
1 Mulcahy, Russel, director. The Curse of King Tut’s Tomb. Hallmark Entertainment, 2006.2 See Mulcahy, Russel.3 Smithsonian Institution. Tutankhamun Treasures: A Loan Exhibition From the Department of Antiquities of the United Arab Republic. American Association of Museums and the Smithsonian Institution, 1961. HathiTrust Digital Library, https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015048541752. Accessed 15 Apr. 20204 See Smithsonian Institution.5 Abydos King List. 1250BC. The British Museum,https://research.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=177487&partId=1.6 David, Rosalie. “Early Study and the Unwrapping of Mummies.” The Oxford Handbook of the Valley of the Kings, edited by Richard H. Wilkinson and Kent R. Weeks, Oxford University Press, 2015. Oxford Handbooks Online, doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199931637.013.025. Accessed 15 Ap. 2020. 7 Benderitter, Thierry. “TUTANKHAMUN-KV62.” Edited by Jeremy Steele. Translated by Jon Hirst, Osirisnet, Osirisnet, osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/toutankhamon/e_toutankhamon_01.htm. Accessed 15 Apr. 2020.8 Carter, Howard. Tutankhamun: Anatomy of an Excavation, 1922. Edited by Elizabeth Flemings, et al., Griffith Institute, 2010, www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/4sea1not.html. Accessed 29 April 2020.9 [1] “Tutankhamun.” The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, vol. 34, no. 3, 1976, pp. 1–48. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/3269009. Accessed 15 Apr. 2020.10 See “Tutankhamun.”11 See “Tutankhamun.”12 See Benderitter, Thierry.13 Brier, Bob. 2013. Egypt-omania: our three thousand year obsession with the land of the pharaohs. New York: Palgrave Macmillan14 See Brier, Bob.15 See Brier, Bob.16 See Brier, Bob.17 See Brier, Bob.18 See “Tutankhamun.”19 McAlister, Melani. “‘The Common Heritage of Mankind’: Race, Nation, and Masculinity in the King Tut Exhibit.” Representations, no. 54, 1996, pp. 80–103. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/2928693. Accessed 15 Apr. 2020.20 “King Tut – SNL.” Youtube, uploaded by Saturday Night Live, 10 Sep. 2013, www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYbavuReVF421 See “King Tut – SNL.”22 See McAlister, Melani.23 Fritze, Ronald H. Egyptomania a history of fascination, obsession and fantasy. London: Reaktion Books, 2017.24 See Fritze, Ronald H.25 See Fritze, Ronald H.26 See Brier, Bob.27 Reeves, Nicholas. “Everywhere the Glint of Gold: The Mystery of Tutankhamun’s mask.” The Octavian Report, vol. 1, no. 3, June 2015, pp. 29. Academia, www.academia.edu/13929303/Everywhere_the_Glint_of_Gold_The_Mystery_of_Tutankhamuns_Mask_2015_. Accessed 29 April 2020.28 See Reeves, Nicholas.29 Palestine Diary. “Edward Said On Orientalism.” Youtube, 28 Oct. 2012, www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVC8EYd_Z_g. 30 See Mulcahy, Russel.
We discuss how the goddess Isis has changed throughout time from when she was first created in ancient Egypt to nowadays where she is still revered by some in the world.
Gabriela Ramirez,
1st Year Undergraduate
Jordan Galczynski, Graduate Student
Transcript [Introduction-0:00]
Gabriela Ramirez:
Thank you for tuning in. My name is Gabriela Ramirez and you’re listening to Season Two, Episode Four of Now as Then, where we discuss the ways in which Ancient Egypt has changed the different aspects of our culture in our world today. In this episode, the purpose of Isis, we’re going to discuss how the goddess Isis has changed throughout time from when she was first created in ancient Egypt to nowadays where she is still revered by some in the world. The Cult of Isis still exists today.
GR:
So what is it about this goddess that makes her so famous? Even most people who don’t revere her in any way, know who she is, and know that she has some connection to Ancient Egypt. Even some know that she’s an Egyptian goddess. But what is it about her that makes her so popular? We find out that throughout history she has been worshipped by many, but she has not always retained the same meanings that she has had from ancient Egypt. So let’s dive into the original meanings of Isis from ancient Egypt when we first hear about her purpose there.
[Section 1: Isis in Ancient Egypt-1:46]
GR:
In ancient Egypt, when we learn about Isis, she has very much taken on the role of a mother goddess and wife to Osiris. She is specifically the mother of Horus, and in The Contendings of Horus and Set, she helps her son become the ruler of the gods and goddesses, cradling him like a baby, though there are two main forms of Horus, Horus the younger and Horus the elder. (If you would like to learn about the different forms and popularity of Horus, check out Season One, Episode Four: Falcons and Pharaohs.) In fact, some figurines of Isis are of her cradling the baby Horus and nursing him. One such figurine can be found at the John Hopkins Archaeological Museum. It has a turquoise color, and you can tell that it is Isis by the symbol that is on her hair, the “chair” symbol. She holds Horus near her breast so that she can feed him. This image of Isis cradling baby Horus speaks to her qualities as a mother: caring, protective and supportive. (If you’d like to learn more about the image of Isis nursing baby Horus, check out Season One, Episode Five: Like a Virgin: Madonna and Child.) Thus, the Egyptians viewed her in the same way, a mother, asking her for guidance and protection, just like how she did for Horus and his troubles. Here’s Jordan Galczynski, a graduate student at UCLA, with more information on the topic.
Jordan Galczynski:
I think often Isis gets kind of equated with motherhood and you know, childbirth and like the protective mother. So I think that’s often especially later on in Egyptian history she gets she gets the mother kind of signal. Earlier on, I mean, she has like the kind of regenerative aspects to with putting together Osiris and then making the first Horus. So she was very integral in starting kingship in ancient Egypt. But yeah, I think most cases it’s she’s connected to motherhood, children. Protection things like this.
GR:
So even though Isis possesses different qualities and grander powers, such as the power of regeneration, the Egyptians considered her a mother goddess, having all of the qualities of a mother and protecting Ancient Egyptians like her children.
[Section 2: Isis in Greco-Roman culture-4:20]
GR:
When foreigners began to invade and travel to Egypt, the Egyptian culture became syncretized into other civilizations, especially Greek and Roman cultures. In some cases, some Egyptian gods and goddesses were forgotten. However, Isis did not die so easily like the others. With a strong Greek influence in Egypt, especially in the Delta region, many of the Greeks began to syncretize, or merge, Isis into their culture, even along with their own gods and goddesses. Oftentimes, the Greeks would compare her to Aphrodite. It is very interesting that she would be compared to Aphrodite given her role in ancient Egypt was a mother goddess. Aphrodite does not necessarily possess motherly qualities. In fact, she is vain about her own beauty. However, the Greeks compared Isis to the fertility aspects of Aphrodite since Isis impregnated herself when she regenerated Osiris from the dead. The comparison between Aphrodite and Isis possibly gives the latter a new purpose as a goddess of fertility. Though it is not a very popularized idea, there are still some who compare Isis to Aphrodite for this purpose. However, Isis was syncretized into Greek mythology in another somewhat unusual way. There were some Greeks who believed that Isis was the goddess of the seas. Now, in Greek mythology, it’s Poseidon who’s the god of the seas; this could possibly be another connection to Isis as possible, grander powers. According to the 2019 book Isis Pelagia: Images, Names and Cults of a Goddess of the Seas, it says that “the Egyptians perceive the seas as frightening, a place where there are risks that can lead to capsizing or even death.” Even if the Egyptians did not value the seas, the Greeks definitely did as they built their entire culture around the Mediterranean Sea. So, because the Greeks began to perceive, through Egypt secretization, how much power Isis could have, they believed that her power must be demonstrated through the power of the waves. Therefore, to some cults of Isis in Greece, Isis’s purpose was to be the goddess of the seas, praying to her to keep them safe as they cross the seas as a sign of her power. It is very different from the purpose of a mother goddess.
GR:
Across the “pond” in Rome, Isis gained huge popularity than she ever had before. There she was so absorbed into Roman culture that she was considered an All-Goddess, a goddess with so much power that she had powers from most of the other deities in Roman mythology. According to the 2016 book, ISIS: Eternal Goddess of Egypt and Rome, some Romans viewed her as a savior “as she eventually becomes a beneficial goddess of nature, a saviour, and to many, the sole goddess.” Again, the savior purpose appears in the Roman culture, attributing to her great power and many Romans believed that she was so much more powerful than the other Roman deities that they worshipped Isis more. Their worship was so great that they began to build temples and statues for her. The Art History Museum in Vienna, Austria, in the Collection of Antiquities, there’s a statue of Isis from Roman culture, and it’s from the Middle Imperial period from the first half of the second century CE; it was found in Naples, Italy. Now this statue has some Egyptian culture on it, like the broken sistrum in her right hand or the jar of the holy Nile water in her left hand, or maybe the headdress of the sun disk, between cow horns, borrowed from the ancient Egyptian goddess, Hathor. The main difference is she is dressed in Roman garments, specifically black Roman garments. In the description of the statue, the dark parts of the robes are meant to contrast against the “white marble of the incarnate of the goddess” to demonstrate her purity. This statue is a great representation of Isis’s popularity among the Romans, and her popularity swept over the entire Roman Empire and remained there for many more decades. Jordan has more to add about Isis’s popularity in Rome.
JG:
I think specifically of the Romans, adopt the Cult of Isis and bring the cult back to you know, the Italian peninsula. So you find we find temples dedicated to Isis in Pompei. You can there’s one, there’s one in Rome. We have people being you know, priests of Isis, Italians, Romans. Even stories The Golden Ass, The Metamorphosis is a story about a individual a Roman going trying to initiate into the Isis cult, and all the mysteries that and you know is part of this.
GR:
The mystical and exotic aspect of Isis being from ancient Egypt, also very much appealed to the Romans. The main significance here of Isis from the Greeks and the Romans is that to them, she was not a mother goddess. To some Greeks, she was a powerful goddess, the goddess of the seas. Although it definitely surprised me, I can see why they viewed her as a goddess of the seas, due to her power and connection to water from two very different civilizations. The Greeks knew that they had to appeal to her for safe passage on the seas. Then we move on further to Roman culture, and she’s seen as an All-Goddess, almost as if she was monotheistic, even though some Romans were still polytheistic and did worship the other gods and goddesses. But they were many, many Romans who saw her as a generic, mystical, All-Goddess with a lot of power to bring salvation to them. It was very different from her role as a mother goddess, someone who would protect the Egyptians.
[Section 3: The Disappearance of the Cult of Isis’s Popularity-11:33]
GR:
As I continued my research, I noticed that I could not find sources that stated she was very popular during the Middle Ages or the Renaissance era. And I think the reason for this has to do with the rising popularity of Christianity. Here’s what Jordan says about the popularity of Christianity and how it affected Cults of Isis at the end of the Roman Empire.
JG:
I think just like, you know, Christianity being so popular and you can’t, you know, in Christian thought you there’s one god right you can’t worship other gods. So the popularity of Christianity and in being Christian at least in, you know, Europe and such, takes over. Even in Egypt right we have there they convert very quickly to Christianity so I just think yeah the popularity of monotheism right. monotheistic religions during the time take over.
GR:
Sometimes some Christian officials would take brutal ways to stop people from worshipping polytheistic religions. Those who are found worshipping another god, or pagans, were put to death. So someone who was worshipping Isis would have most likely stopped. However, this does not mean that the Cult of Isis died off. In fact, the Cult of Isis has been found in some unusual places.
[Section 4: Isis in Modern Times-13:05]
GR:
So let’s move on further in time and go to County Wexford in Ireland in 1994. An article was published in the National Catholic Reporter called “Goddess Isis alive and well in County Wexford.” Now, you might be probably thinking, “Wait, isn’t Ireland predominantly Catholic?” And this article implicitly asked the same question as well. The article asserts that even in Catholic Ireland, the cult of Isis is very popular. It addresses how the first appearance of the cult of Isis was in 1976, 18 years before the publication of this article. It even shows a picture of Isis in the Huntington Castle temple. Olivia Robertson and the Reverend Lawrence Durdin-Robertson “launched the fellowship of Isis” which praised Isis for her feminine divinity, especially since they needed a powerful “female spirituality” against the “men who have been messing up the world.” They found Isis so that they could have some connection to divinity to help them out. This was in the 1970s 1980s, where the goddess Isis is still very much popular, possibly even due to Egyptomania, the renewed interest of Europeans in ancient Egypt, with, yet again, another different purpose for the goddess Isis, and her popularity continues even into the 21st century. In an article called Isis & Secret Magic & Esoteric Books, by Isidora from the website Isiopolis, a website dedicated to the goddess Isis, there is a picture of what a modern-day altar of Isis would look like. The modern altar of Isis of the fellowship of Isis in Utah has a little Isis figurine in the center with her wings expanded outwards and upwards to show the full length of her power. Surrounding her are other little figurines and some flowers, one of the other figurines being Osiris. Behind her, there’s a tapestry of Isis, laying on her side and her wings spread out. Here, Isis is a magician goddess. This ability actually comes from some evidence of it in ancient Egypt, and it was not as known as her role as a mother goddess. However, some current Fellowships of Isis “understood magic to be inseparable from a relationship with Isis, the Goddess of Magic … from the compassionate magic of healing to the ecstasy of the theurgic union that renews the spirit and deepens the soul.” Isis now has a new purpose, Isis as the goddess of magic, magic that is used to heal. Now, this is a different purpose than what we have seen; before, she was powerful, a mother, purely divine. Now, she is a magician but most of all, a healer. Many people can speculate about why, in modern times, people want to see her as a magic healer, done through compassion. One speculation, and again, it is a speculation, is that through all the war and suffering we have been through, some people wanted a little compassion in the world.
[Section 5: Isis Commercialized in Popular Media-16:53]
GR:
Though the Cults and Fellowships of Isis are popular in modern times today, there are many people who don’t worship her but still use the aesthetic and some understanding of Isis to commercialize her meaning. For example, in 2014, Katy Perry released a music video to her single “Dark Horse” featuring Juicy J. Towards the end of the music video, around three minutes, Katy Perry begins to ascend the pyramid that she received as a gift, demonstrating her power, but at around three minutes and 20 seconds, she begins to pull these wings from behind and strongly hold them out as she continues to sing, and the song begins to finish. These images are the same as the images of Isis on a modern altar. Even before this moment in the video, she says she is Aphrodite, provoking the comparison of Isis to Aphrodite. Afterwards, I found another video titled “Katy Perry’s ‘Dark Horse’ Behind the Scenes” to see if there was any reason for why she chose to be Isis at the end of the music video. Although she did mention the parts about her being Isis, she didn’t give any explanation for this choice. So, I must speculate if the use of Isis is a part of ancient Egyptian commercialization, or using images of ancient Egypt for someone’s profits. Like I mentioned before, not many people know much about the goddess Isis. Then, could it be that Katy Perry was commercializing the way Isis looked like so that she could appeal to those who might recognize that she was trying to look like Isis? She would not just be commercializing Isis, but all of ancient Egypt. She compared herself to Cleopatra as well, and there are various images of Egyptian gods and goddesses that would be in ancient Egyptian tombs. She uses the aesthetic of ancient Egypt as background to what her song is really about: telling a lover not to mess with her. Here’s what Jordan says about possible commercialization in “Dark Horse.”
JG:
I think they’re harkening back to these images we have from either bright spreading her wings being like a vulture Goddess, right, of like protecting. So I think they’re definitely pulling on these metaphors that the Egyptians would recognize today if they saw Katy Perry’s music video, but then to the Egyptians, right. This stuff was supposed to be you know, not shown to the public, maybe kept in a tomb, kept in the temple, in like a very sacred space and not for you know, popular media or something like this. So I think the Egyptians would be like, you’re blaspheming like the goddess right? So I think they would recognize the artistic metaphors being used right? Like recall Isis her, her headdress, maybe her garb, the wings and stuff like this. But I don’t think they would acknowledge how she’s being used I guess in this commercialization sense of like harkening back to this exotic Egypt, like Katy Perry was trying to do.
GR:
Thus, it begs the question, is it due to reference to Isis, or mass commercialization?
[Section 6: Conclusion-20:36]
GR:
In conclusion, Isis had all these different purposes throughout time and space. To the Egyptians, she was a mother goddess. To some Greeks, she was the goddess of the seas, paralleling the importance of the seas. To the Romans, with which she gained much popularity, she was a generic Savior, All-Goddess, very powerful, very mystical. Then, in County Wexford, 1976, she was a goddess of pure female divinity to combat patriarchy. In modern times, she’s a compassionate magic healer goddess. Throughout these changes of meanings, Isis was constantly commercialized, along with the rest of ancient Egypt, to gain profit from her aesthetics.
GR:
But why? Why Isis? Circling back to our main question, why Isis? She’s developed many meanings and purposes throughout time and history that some people may not even know what is real anymore. I think, however, the bigger question is this. What was actually happening at the time when her purpose changed? With the Greeks and the Romans, they were invading and traveling to Egypt and were mesmerized with the exoticness of this place. Thus came Isis as a powerful goddess with a mystical aspect. In the 1970s, the feminist movement was taking a hold in many places around the world, wanting women to have more power. Thus came Isis as a powerful feminist goddess. Nowadays, in 2020, there is still prejudiced injustice in our country and all over the world. Thus came Isis as a compassionate healer goddess. Even in the Middle Ages and Renaissance era, when she was not popular, Christian officials persecuted those who worshipped polytheistic gods and goddesses. The main common denominator is this: something major happened, added with the exotic aspect of Isis and ancient Egypt, that prompted people to change Isis’s purpose to fit the times. All of this could be speculation, but I’ll leave you with this thought. There are some people who love the aesthetic of ancient Egypt and its popularity and to some extent, the power that Isis represents. So maybe that’s why the goddess Isis appeals to them so much. Whether it is true reverence or commercialization. Isis has some great importance to most people in the world today.
[Section 7: Outro-23:48]
GR:
Thank you for listening to this episode of Now as Then. If you’re interested in more content like this, be sure to check out our other episodes of Now as Then. I’d like to give a big thanks to Deidre Whitmore of Digital Archaeology Lab Cotsen Institute, Robyn Price, Simon Lee, Katherine Kapsidelis, Jet Jacobs of UCLA Library Special Collections, and Martin Brennan of Scholarly Communication Education for making this podcast possible. I want to give a special thanks to my interviewee, Jordan Galczynski for her input in this episode.
Again, thank you so much for listening, and stay healthy.
Isis nursing Horus Statue of Roman Isis
Modern-day altar of Isis Katy Perry in “Dark Horse”
Works Cited Bleeker, Claas Jouco. “Isis as Saviour Goddess.” The Saviour God; Comparative Studies in the Concept of Salvation, Presented to Edwin Oliver James, 1963, pp. 1–16. EBSCOhost, search.ebscohost.com/login.aspxdirect=true&db=reh&AN=ATLA0001053832&site=ehost-live.
Bragantini, Irene. “The Cult of Isis and Ancient Egyptomania in Campania.” Contested Spaces: Houses and Temples in Roman Antiquity and the New Testament, 2012, pp. 21–33. EBSCOhost, search.ebscohost.com/login.aspxdirect=true&db=reh&AN=ATLA0001934215&site=ehost-live.
Bricault, Laurent. Isis pelagia: images, names and cults of a goddess of the seas. Translated by Gil H. Renberg. Religions in the Graeco-Roman world 190. Leiden; Boston: Brill. 2020. DOI: 10.1163/9789004413900.
Diadora. “Katy Perry’s “Dark Horse” Behind The Scenes.” Youtube. 19 June 2014. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuoP9GXKn0I
Galczynski, Jordan. A graduate student at UCLA. 28 May 2020.
Faience statuette of Isis suckling Horus. ECM 1717, Eton College Myers Collection. John Hopkins Archaeological Museum. Baltimore, Maryland.
Farrell, Michael J. “Goddess Isis Alive and Well in County Wexford.” National Catholic Reporter, vol. 30, no. 35, 29 July 1994, p. 10. EBSCOhost, search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=a9h&AN=9408183580&site=ehost-live.
Isidora, and Serapion. “Isis & Sacred Magic & Esoteric Books.” Isiopolis, 6 July 2013, isiopolis.com/2013/07/06/isis-sacred-magic-esoteric-books/.
Jackson, Lesley. Isis: eternal goddess of Egypt and Rome. London: Avalonia. 2016.
Nikoloska, Aleksandra. “Evidence of the Cults of Isis on the Territory of the Republic of Macedonia.” A History of Research Into Ancient Egyptian Culture in Southeast Europe, edited by Mladen Tomorad, Archaeopress, 2015, pp. 221–228. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvqmp0sp.25. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
Perry, Katy. Dark Horse (Official) Ft. Juicy J. Youtube, Capitol Records, 20 Feb. 2014, www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KSOMA3QBU0.
Statue of Isis. Roman, Middle Imperial period. 2nd century CE. Naples, Italy. Kunsthistoriesches Museum. Vienna, Austria. https://www.khm.at/objektdb/detail/50667/?offset=2&lv=floorplan.
Yan-Kee. D. “Allegretto cantabile.” Divertimento of Life. Free Archive Music. https://files.freemusicarchive.org/storage-freemusicarchive-org/music/ccCommunity/Dee_Yan-Key/Divertimento_of_Life/Dee_Yan-Key_-_01_-_Allegretto_cantabile.mp3
Have you ever wanted to explore the old tombs of Ancient Egypt? Ever wonder why they were made? Or what exactly the journey to the underworld looked like? In this episode of Now as Then, we’ll be diving into Ancient Egyptian tombs, the ways they assisted the dead to the underworld, and the ways that the contents found within them still pervade western media to this day. From there, we’ll be touching on the ways media uses tombs to capitalize off of Ancient Egypt, and the ways that Ancient Egypt has continued to be culturally relevant, in part due to tombs.
Sophie Nenninger, UCLA Undergraduate Featuring: Bob Nenninger Featuring: Kylie Thompsen, UCLA PhD Student
Transcript Section One: Introduction
Musical Intro
SOPHIE NENNINGER: So imagine it’s the 1800s and you’re unexplored traveling into Egypt for the first time. Now you’ve never been and as you’re seeing the grand artifacts and architecture of the ancient kingdom, you’re wondering, Yo, what’s up with all this dead stuff? Hi, welcome to season two episode five of now versus then, I’m Sophie Nenninger and today we’re going to be talking about the tombs of ancient Egypt.
So right off the gate, let me address the idea of death in ancient Egypt that has been perpetrated by the Western world. Because of all the preserved tombs mummies and sarcophagi, Egypt has been branded as an exotic mummy obsessed kingdom. And while that is not entirely untrue, it does depict Egypt in a two dimensional light, which I will be working to uncover within this episode.
Starting off the podcast we’ll explore the original tombs of ancient Egypt, what they look like and the things they were buried with the dead. Moving on to the Victorian era. We’ll be talking about Egyptomania and the 1800s and the ways that the aesthetics of tombs were integrated into the art and architecture of Britain. From there, it’s the roaring 20s and the ways that art deco was inspired by King Tut’s tomb and as well as some of the fashion trends inspired by the sarcophagi. Lastly, we’ll be covering the modern world how fashion has capitalized on some of the Egyptian tomb aesthetics and interpreted the artwork into popular culture.
[Musical Transition]
Section Two: Ancient Egyptian Tombs (00:02:07)
NENNINGER: So the Egyptians had been burying their dead in tombs since the pre dynastic period, which was about 6000 to 3100 BCE. But these tombs are not our traditional idea of what an ancient Egyptian tomb would look like. They were graves lined with brick in the ground, often containing pottery and small in contrast to the pyramids of the Old Kingdom.1
Our interviewee Kylie Thompson mentioned these kinds of tombs and our conversation about the big tombs of ancient Egypt. And because I messed up the audio, I’ll introduce her here. Kylie is a PhD candidate for Near Eastern language and cultures department at UCLA, and she focuses in Middle Kingdom funerary archaeology, here she was explaining the timeline of tombs that existed in the ancient Egyptian kingdoms.
KYLIE THOMPSEN: You want to start at like the earliest point of what we consider of, you know, Ancient Egypt. You start with tombs that are just directly into the ground. It’s kind of a lot like, you know, our modern cemeteries, you know, buried with, you know, obviously the bodies and maybe some objects really depending on sort of social status. That’s a huge thing, especially in the ancient world, we deduce a lot of information about people through their tombs, and what was in them and how large they were, things like this. Doesn’t always mean the same thing, but it helps us understand more about them as time progressed from the pre dynastic period, and you go into the Old Kingdom, that’s when you get like things called mastaba tombs. So you still have like shafts and chambers and what have you under the ground but then you have this large mud brick structure on top so you can just imagine being an ancient Egyptian walking around and there are these you know, giant superstructures.
Of course, that would be you know, probably quite intense. So you can- and it’s intense for us to even though we don’t have them perfectly preserved, you go to Egypt. Now you can sort of see what these look like. And then you kind of continue on with this. You have these mastaba tombs, but you also get pyramids and these, I kind of touched on this before, but you’re going to get drastically different types of tombs, depending on social status. And so if you’re the king, the Pharaoh, you start to have pyramids built. The upper elite –These things are sort of hard to, you know, when we’re using like our modern day, sort of conceptions of like, what elite is, but suffice it to say upper elites, they have these fill these mastaba tombs. Sometimes rock cut to tombs, so things like into a cliff.
But you know, then you have also massive pyramids with a lot of stuff inside. We don’t know exactly what because that’s another important thing about ancient Egyptian tombs most were looted, objects were taken out to be reused. The tombs themselves were reused, right. So we are missing a lot of information. Pyramids, you know, sort of persisted for a while for, you know, through the Middle Kingdom. That’s the time period that I’m interested in. And then they sort of fall off. And now when we get to the new kingdom, which I think this is another thing people think about when thinking about tombs is for example, King Tut’s tomb. He’s a new kingdom King. And that’s where you have like the Valley of the Kings. This is used for, you know, a couple hundreds of years. And these are, you know, you have sort of this mountainous–that’s probably not the right word, but you have all these different cliff faces and tombs were being dug into this into the rock. And you have all these different chambers and King Tut. So famous not because he did anything super exciting but just because he’s actually the only sort of King that we have his funerary equipment almost completely preserved–we do know that some stuff was looted in antiquity. But so like all these, you know, this idea we have of all the gold and all the different things and the decoration that all comes from King Tut’s tomb and that’s why he’s, you know, captured the imagination of, you know, like almost everybody, right?
And yeah, and that sort of, you know, continues on these rock cut tombs are what are most, you know, it’s what most people are doing, who have the means to have these types of tombs. But yeah, so it’s a long history. It’s a couple thousand years, but that’s sort of like a quick and dirty rundown to styles throughout the ages.
NENNINGER: So like Kylie said, the tombs built to bury the dead actually varied quite a bit. They went from these original cemeteries to mastabas to pyramids to tombs cut out of the sides of mountains, to chambers built in the Valley of the Kings and to the eventual merging of Egyptian burials with Roman and Greek tradition in the Ptolemaic period.
And I know that in our modern perception of tombs, you might just think, oh, we have cemeteries. They’re not too different from tombs, but tombs in cemeteries were relatively uncommon at this time in societies other than Egypt. That’s not to say they didn’t exist, but not to the level of ancient Egypt.2
The tomb that I’m choosing to focus on today was the tomb of Seti I who was an ancient Egyptian pharaoh in the 19th dynasty. His tomb was located in the East Valley of the Kings and is the longest tomb in the valley at 137 meters.3 I’m choosing to use this tomb because the reliefs are incredibly extravagant, and I think the depictions on the walls encapsulate a lot of what we consider today to be cliche Egyptian aesthetics due to the nature of the excavation of the tomb. The function of the tomb itself was to assist the dead to the afterlife. Seti’s tomb was large enough to house the texts of multiple books which were there as a guide for Seti, the Book of the Dead was inscribed on the walls of the tomb to guide the king to the duat, or the underworld. In an essay by Bojana Mosjav, she details the meanings and inscriptions and the artwork on the walls, the secret names of Ra that were invoked for the protection of the pharaoh, his image ingrained on the wall, bringing him back to life with the heavenly cow ready to carry him into the sky. His sarcophagus was laid under the night sky, the sky goddess embracing the tomb sparkled with stars. Thus, the tomb itself functions as a piece of the physical underworld, a space tied between life and death.4
So from what we know about all of these kinds of tombs in the interiors of them, how were they supposed to, like, assist the dead to the underworld?
THOMPSEN: So that’s a great question because I think it’s what most people sort of forget about when thinking about tombs that it was a space for the dead to be transformed. And then eventually, you know, make it into the afterlife.
There’s so many different elements that come into play. Again, depending on what type of tool it is, but I’ll just sort of give a generalized answer that can sort of somewhat be applied throughout history to a degree. But you have, you know, for example, you have like the actual burial chamber right, a tomb could be much larger, it has a funerary chapel where people bring offerings to the dead. You have, you know, different sub chambers, like empty chambers, all these different things where objects are going, you have text on the walls and hieroglyphs that have sort of if you’ve ever heard of like the Book of the Dead people, you know, they’ll say like, Book of the Dead spell 117 something like this. So again, I think even just that language, kind of like, you know, captures the imagination. But you know, you have these texts that are supposed to assist the dead to the underworld. Certainly The fact that they’re mummified that they’re in a coffin that they’re in a sarcophagus, the colors that are used, they’re just, it’s so like, every element in a way sort of plays into the ultimate goal of having the deceased person transformed and, you know, go properly to the afterlife, right? Yeah. So yeah, totally.
NENNINGER: So in the tomb of Seti I, we see a lot of the texts and books that Kylie was talking about. Because of the size of the tomb, there was enough wall space to include the book of the afterlife, the Amduat or the Book of the Dead, the Book of the Gates, the Litany of the Sun, the Book of the Heavenly Cow and the ritual Opening of the Mouth, as well as the Judgment of Osiris. Now, I don’t have enough time to explain all of these depictions but the Book of the Heavenly Cow, for example, is an ancient Egyptian text which deals with the rebellion of humanity against Ra and then his destruction of all of the rebels against him through the goddess Hathor. But when Hathor is sent down to earth, she kind of goes on this or bloodlust rampage. So Ra decides to have mercy and gets Hathor drunk so that she turns away from her bad side which is named Sekhmet back into Hathor who is a friend of humanity. But after all of this mess goes down Ra decides that he’s tired of looking over humanity. So he asks the goddess Nun to take him up to the heavens, but Nun doesn’t really know how to do this. So Nut turns Nun into the Heavenly Cow and Ra rides away on her back while the other Gods help her to transport Ra, higher from the earth and away from human beings. I chose this one because I love cows and I could totally get behind a celestial heavenly cow. That sounds kind of amazing.5
Anyways, the actual depiction on the wall is a giant cow being held by all of the gods in assisting raw up to the heavens, and this image in a tomb was to assist the pharaoh up into their rightful place in the heavens(Osirisnet). Looking at the tomb of Seti I today, it’s now very dramatically lit, and some of the paint has rubbed off but the small chapel and pillared hallway still have retained their color. In the images I’m seeing of the walls most of them appear to be bas reliefs in the aspect of style of most traditional ancient Egyptian art. A bas relief is when an image is etched out of a wall and the image pops out and the background remains flat. And aspective art style can be described as art that lacks perspective.6This doesn’t make it lesser than it just means it serves a different purpose than art with perspective and it’s used to describe the traditional Egyptian style of drawing people in profile. That is commonly associated with ancient Egyptian art now, as you can see, inspired by music like walk like an Egyptian.
So these details about the tomb are important because it’s a lot of what ends up being passed down to modern day society, and things that we commonly associate with ancient Egypt. These walls and the tomb have a sense of timelessness. stillness, like it could last an eternity rather just encapsulating a moment. The walls depict Gods like Horace, Isis, Osiris and Amun and the paint that has lasted is golden, teal, and a rich read. These depictions are what I see most commonly throughout history and pieces inspired by Ancient Egypt, the golden ideal of the kingdom, vibrant, stoic, everlasting and aspective. These images weren’t depicted to capture a moment like impressionists might have, but they were created to immortalize the king. And in doing so they immortalized a society or at least made it last long enough for it to reach modern society.
Also, although this tomb was robbed before archaeologists ever discovered it, it is important to note that it was full of the pharaohs, belongings and pieces of art that were meant to accompany him to the underworld.
I think that this tomb is representative of how the Western world began to see and interpret Ancient Egypt. The beautiful golden art we see on the walls and aspect of style becomes taken on as an aesthetic in the world of the Victorian era and onward, and the fashion of the goddesses in the depictions on the walls became inspiration for later fashion in the 1920s Art Deco movement.
It was discovered in 1817 by Giovanni Belzoni, and parts of the interior were taken to London and Duluth, as well as the sarcophagus which is now in the John Soane’s museum. The tomb was also vandalized by Egyptologists. The tomb was also vandalized by Egyptologists Champollion and Lepsius who cut off two life size reliefs for the Louvre.7 Because so much of this tomb was immediately shipped off to Europe, it’s easy to make the claim that Europe became inspired by it.
So now let’s Boogie on down to the Victorian era and see how Europe was shaped by ancient Egypt.
Section Three: Egyptomania in Victorian England (00:15:22)
[Musical Transition]
NENNINGER: So several thousand years go by we all know the drama of Antony and Cleopatra, the Greeks take over Egypt and we skip over to Napoleonic France. When Napoleon enters Egypt, he takes claim over Egyptian artifacts and artwork and begins collecting artifacts to bring back to France.8 This triggers the first era of Egyptomania in Europe, and the British get this creepy fascination with ancient Egypt and start incorporating it into everything. So for some context on Victorian England, the era is famous for Queen Victoria who basically sent the country into a 100 year romantic slash emo party.
The era was a juxtaposition between the new industrialism that the country was headed towards and the Gothic era that it was bent on going back to. And one of the big reasons that this time was so dark was because Queen Victoria herself experienced the death of her husband, and was mourning for most of our queenship. Because of this, the entire era is branded by this Gothic and romantic aesthetic for life.9
Because of the obsession with death and immortality and the natural ways of living, A lot of the British clung to this idea of ancient Egypt, which they associated with death, but also contradictory with an existence of immortality due to the longevity of its rule.
NENNINGER: So, when we think about it when these objects were starting to be taken out of tombs in the 1800s, what do you think like Europeans clung on to the most as like this idea of ancient Egyptian tombs and the dead and all of this, like, ooh, afterlife business.
THOMPSEN: So it totally kind of, I mean, it’s been brought up already in our short interview so far, but obviously these things just when you look at it, It definitely, again, really captures the imagination, but you sort of get during the 1800s. It’s called like Egyptian revival. And because, you know, I think most people are sort of familiar with, like the Art Deco style and the like 1930s. But even like you mentioned before , when you know, there’s a lot of stuff happening in Egypt, as it relates to like archaeological projects. And so objects were being transported back to the museum, and a lot of stuff is related to what would have been in the tombs or it came from tombs, but they, you know, they’re looted and sold on the art market, things like this. I think what sort of got them the most were, of course, the pyramids, which is a tomb but that was super incorporated into a lot of different things, pyramids themselves. This isn’t necessarily related to the tomb, but I feel like I should bring it up, you know, obelisks like our own. You know, like, we have In Washington, DC, a giant obelisk, things like this were really sort of pervasive within this, you know, visual culture of the 1800s Egyptian revival objects in the tomb like this scarab you know, the little winged beetles.
NENNINGER: Yea!
THOMPSEN: This comes up like on furniture, jewelry, all this different type of stuff. So even though you might see it outside of a tomb context as well, it’s also in the tomb. So they’re kind of you know, I think certainly the like tomb decoration is what really sort of fascinated people. The dress like what people are wearing in, like depictions on the walls, I think, you know, that really lik the jewelry that they’re wearing. I think that also was incorporated. So a lot of these different elements. Definitely in architecture and furniture and probably clothing and jewelry as well, all sorts of, you know.
NENNINGER: So when we talk about the 1800s incorporation of Egypt into the identity of Europe, it’s important to mention Orientalism and the justification of stealing artifacts by European entities. I’ll get more into Orientalism later but in the context of the 1800s Orientalism was basically the depiction of Eastern and Near Eastern countries as inferior to Europe to justify taking their artifacts.10
Due to the nature of the Gothic era as an artistic movement. Much of Egyptian aesthetics were incorporated into the look of the artistic style. In terms of visual aesthetics, scarab necklaces and rings based off of the amulets found in ancient Egyptian tombs were incorporated into the mourning garments of those mourning the dead. Egyptian scarab amulets were worn by the dead to assist them in the weighing of the heartbeat by Osiris. However, in the Victorian era, widows would wear them after their husbands had died.11 Victorian Englanders took their mourning very seriously. There were a set of rules for how you’re supposed to dress and act after someone important to you died.
Garb wasn’t the only thing inspired by Egyptian tombs. The most literal incorporation of ancient Egyptian tombs was in the West section of the Highgate Cemetery in London, which was nicknamed Egyptian Avenue.12 Now on first glance, I didn’t really see the Egyptian influence and if it had not been nicknamed Egyptian Avenue, I probably would not have found it. The cemetery is definitely the British ideal of what Egypt look like and not completely accurate. It’s kind of when people used to paint elephants who have never seen an elephant and then the painting ends up looking horrendous and nothing like an elephant. This section of the cemetery has an archway into it, and it is lined with two columns and there’s an obelisk on either side. The actual archway has this kind of rounded upside down V shape, which I don’t believe is an accurate representation of what a real doorway looks like in ancient Egyptian tombs. It seems a little more inspired from indo Islamic architecture, such as the Taj Mahal and they kind of just threw on this style of archway associating it with other exotic quote unquote, countries.13 A real Egyptian tomb often had a traditional rectangular shaped archway into the doorway. However, the two columns lining it do look accurate to what a tomb really did look like in ancient Egypt and the novelists are obviously from Egypt, even though they aren’t really at the center entryway into tombs. I think it’s important to note about the cemetery that even though it’s not really an accurate depiction of what ancient Egyptian tombs look like, it does point to the fact that Britain was obsessed with this Egyptian ideal of death, enough to incorporate it into their own funerary rituals. Although it wasn’t a perfect depiction of an ancient Egyptian tomb. The British believe that this Egyptian way of burying their dead is associated with true respect of their dead. Despite this, it does perpetuate the idea that Egypt was this foreign exotic country to the extent that Britain actually kind of grouped together two countries, which are nowhere near each other to create this one theme cemetery.
And more specifically in the realm of art, the Gothic artistic movement incorporated very literally a lot of Egyptian themes. Oscar Wilde published his book The Sphinx, Bram Stoker published the Jewel of the Seven Stars, and I think most popularly, Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote Ozymandias.
This poem has stayed relevant since the original publication even being featured in the trailer for the final season of Breaking Bad. Here’s a segment of the poem read by Bryan Cranston.
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”14
So now that Bryan Cranston has not only flexed on us with his impeccable voice, but with the great audio quality compared to my childhood closet bedroom with a blanket over my head, let’s get into what this poem means.
The poem depicts the remnants of the statue of Ramses II, and although it doesn’t give a description of a tomb, the poem is about a once godlike King and one that was determined to have his legacy live on after death. Not only does the sculpture itself speak to the nature of immortality after death in ancient Egypt, but it also speaks to this Gothic fear of death. All of the literature of the period that was written about undead creatures highlights a fascination of the dead, but also a fear of it funneled through a lens of a creature incapable of dying. The irony of this poem is that although Shelley is making a point that no one can survive the test of time, yet he immortalizes Ramses II by writing about him and he is immortalized again through the Breaking Bad reference to him. Shelley also depicts an Egypt different to the romanticized version often seen in other works at the time. While they all depict this golden ideal of Egypt. This one is of the barren desert and the sands that stretch far into the horizon.
Section Four: Tutmania, Art Deco, and the Roaring 20s (00:24:58)
[Musical Transition]
NENNINGER: Egyptomania never really got the chance to come down as it transitioned to Tutmania at the discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamen which just revamped the obsession once again. The tomb had been mostly hidden from tomb robbers and maintained its original condition for the most part. For more information on the tomb of tooten common check out season two episode three of now as then, which delves into the boy King and why his legacy has lived on. Because of the discovery of his tomb Egyptologist got an idea of some of the Grand objects that were buried with the pharaohs. And because we had those objects and those objects were taken to museums, the general public became obsessed with the findings of this tomb. This obsession led to another resurgence of the aesthetic within the artistic world. However, Egypt was already popular before the discovery of Tut’s tomb in 1925. Costume designer and artist, Sonia Delaunay, took inspiration from the golden jewelry found in the tombs of the loof and her costumes of Cleopatra in the London Music Hall became hugely popular indicating public popularity before the discovery of Tut.15
Furthermore, one year before the discovery of Tut, the Sid Gauman’s theater was built in Hollywood. Yet after the discovery of King Tut the obsession boomed. Dresses based on Tut’s sarcophagus became popular, Delaunay herself and designed a dress inspired by Tut’s innermost sarcophagus and French jeweler Cartier made a vanity case shaped as an Egyptian sarcophagus, which was meant to be an homage to the way Egyptians beautified mummies.16
Okay, um, what do you think is the most common misconception about interiors of ancient Egyptian tombs or the reasons for burying the dead or any of that kind of situation?
THOMPSEN: So I definitely think one of the biggest misconceptions it probably based on like the movies we were talking about, too, is people always bring up like if I, you know, mentioned that I’m an Egyptologist or I work in Egypt or something like this. They want to talk about mummies in particular and they always think mummies were meant to be, like, brought back to life. Like right now, like here, like, no, it’s much more complicated than that. They’re not trying to like wake up and, you know, in 2021 or 2020 and be like, Hello, I’m here. It was to preserve the body. So their spirit could like recognize the body when it was re inhabited. But like, again, always in the afterlife, it’s all about the afterlife. Or a lot of it is about the afterlife, right? So I think that’s one of the big misconceptions. I think one of the other misconceptions is that we have all these like tomb with, like, all this, like gold, and you had these like, giant fancy, like, funerary processions, where it’s just like the most elaborate thing you’ve ever seen. And, and while like, we don’t know exactly what went on, right, we weren’t there and we’re missing a lot of information. I think. People don’t realize that we’re like, again, a lot of that stuff is not in the tombs now. A lot of even, like, the tomb decoration that would be on the walls has fallen off and it’s being restored and things like this. I think people think we have a lot more than we do. It’s not to say we don’t have a ton of stuff. When you’re studying Ancient Egypt, we don’t have like, a lack of information per se, but I think a lot of people think of King Tut’s tomb and his like, golden coffin and sarcophagus and things like this, and they assume we have that, you know, for everybody across history. And yeah, and maybe some– oh, here’s another really good one. And this will be my final point, specifically about the pyramids because these again, were tombs. And I think just all of this pseudo science and like the ancient alien esque type stuff as it relates to pyramids, like you know, like, Oh, we have to go to the top and it’s gonna like all get this like special solar charge or whatever, I’m going to go into the sarcophagus of Khufu in his pyramid, and I’ll whatever. Or just like that the aliens built them when we know exactly how they were built. There’s like a lot of Oh, actually, that’s my final point. The last thing I want to say is we do know a lot more about like, like, you know, people were constructing them, people made these objects. It’s not like this magical mystical thing. I think people kind of forget about the human element that they were made, in fact, by people. And we know a lot about the engineering we know a lot about like the craftspersonship. It’s not just like totally evading us, and we’re like, oh, yeah, must have been aliens, and it was used for grain storage. We know how it was built, and you know, all these things. So, So yeah.
NENNINGER: The 20s also really capitalized on the Egyptian aesthetic, and it would be inaccurate if I didn’t mention that much of these products were being sold by essentially selling the idea of exoticism to rich white people. It allows the buyer to feel as if they were an adventurer on a mission to excavate the next tomb and perpetuates the depiction of ancient Egypt as a one dimensional country.
So I recently had a conversation with my dad about his trip to Egypt and Orientalism came up because what else are you going to talk about during quarantine? I think it’s an important conversation to have right now, especially with the anti racist movement going on. And I think it’s an important topic to be brought to the table as it’s not talked about very often.
BOB NENNINGER: The tombs feel very Indiana Jones, and you can’t help but associate the Hollywood interpretation of something. And your sort of like, sense of adventure is sometimes wrapped up into what Hollywood is feeding you. And then you go and you see it. You’re like, thrilled by the fact that it’s actually like that. Yeah, this cool factor where you feel like you’re–you’re discovering it for the first time.
SOPHIE: Yeah.
BOB NENNINGER: You get that feeling because it feels like you’re on the edges of civilization when you’re there. Yeah.
NENNINGER: So, do you know what Orientalism is?
BOB NENNINGER: Not really. I think if I had to define it, I wouldn’t really be able to. I’ve heard the word and I might be able to patch it together. But no, I should be honest. I don’t know what it is.
NENNINGER: Yeah, no, that’s completely valid. It’s not very, like, used in mainstream–mainstream media. So basically, in 1978, Edward Said published his book, Orientalism, which defines the Europe, European and Western interpretation of the Near East and Eastern cultures as historically patronizing. And he uses this, like, imperialist and colonialist agenda of European countries as evidence for the depiction of these countries as subordinate and also to establish power over these countries and create a caricature of culture in order to capitalize off of them. So if for example like the Movie Aladdin, you wouldn’t really think about the fact that it is kind of a two dimensional picture of the Near East and East, Middle East, because it’s like a Disney movie. And you’re just like,
BOB NENNINGER: Oh, totally.
NENNINGER: and it’s like a fake thing. But if you think about it, like they’re depicting, a lot of like, the villains are darker skinned in the movie. Half of the costumes are kind of not real representations of what those people would be wearing. And then they use a lot of the culture as just like a exotic depiction of what we think it is, and not a reality. So when we’re talking about like the Indiana Jones interpretation,
BOB NENNINGER: That’s totally orientalism.
NENNINGER: yeah, totally, totally. Because it’s like we’re selling this idea to white people that if they go to Egypt, they’ll have this whole fantasy of being the original adventurer, and they continue to use that . Less in the Victorian era, the Victorian era was kind of just like using it as an aesthetic, and as an idea, but during the 20s when people were starting to become Egyptologists and archaeologists, it was kind of selling this idea of going to Egypt and having this very exotic vacation, and then like, going and seeing the pyramids and like I was saying earlier today, like drinking champagne on top of the pyramids ran like that ended up funding like Howard Carter’s original finding of King Tut and then justifying European countries going into Egypt and taking some of their artifacts, to capitalize off of themselves.
BOB NENNINGER: So it’s funny, as far as Orientalism is concerned, it reminds me of a scene in Indiana Jones. That is like one of everybody always comes away saying you know, think it was so cool or whatever, but when he is trying to fight his way out of the, the–that sort of the bizarre the the, the area wherever the you know, sort of like the labyrinth of the city where all the people that people are selling their wares and everything yeah
Throwing baskets over and they’re hiding in baskets and they’re trying to run away from the bad guys. But one of the bad guys comes out to be this big this heavyset guy and he he’s almost like the guy that’s going to stop Indiana Jones and he pulls out his giant machete or it’s this giant sword and he starts throwing it or flipping it around in his hands and everything and he starts doing this elaborate, elaborate display of domination. Yeah, as opposed to you know, Indiana Jones just kind of looks at him and pulls out his gun and shoots them dead.
NENNINGER: Yeah
BOB NENNINGER: walks away like you’re sort of means nothing to me because I’m an American with a gun. And that to me was like, especially viewed in today’s world versus the 1980s when this was made it’s like it’s clearly this whole like you know, our guns are our power, you are less than us. Yeah, cuz we’re so crafty. And we have ultimately this weapon. It just it seemed like a condescending scene. But everybody at the time used to high five and think that was like,wasn’t that great.
[Musical Transition]
NENNINGER: So I don’t have enough time to include all of my conversation that I had with my dad. But he does highly recommend visiting Egypt, if you ever have the chance, he talks very fondly about the culture, and specifically about Aswan. So if you ever get the chance, apparently visit Aswan.
It’s important that we take a step back from the past and reanalyze some of the problematic mistakes that occurred so that we can be aware of some of them in the future. These aesthetics are so prevalent in our modern day world our past just rubs off on fashion of today, as style is often just a new interpretation of the past. Although the 20s were aesthetically very beautiful, there is still value in acknowledging the origins of some of the aesthetics and why they came from where they were taken. For more on a look on this, let’s see some of the modern day use of tomb iconography.
Part Five: Modern Day (00:35:58)
[Musical Transition]
Um, so now like transitioning into like modern times now how much of this, like, iconography Do you still see playing out in the modern world today?
THOMPSEN: So I definitely think it may, of course sort of have stemmed in like the 1800s and early 1900s, but we’ll still see it now. The Art Deco, for sure. Even a few years ago, I was driving in Chicago, and just like noticed that on one of the, I think it was like one of the Loyola Marymount in Chicago, I’m not positive, but driving by it and noticing I think, also like the wings scarab or something like this, and different Egyptian elements. and that was when I was earlier in my studies, I was a Masters student then and kind of didn’t know much about, or, didn’t think much about, like Egyptomania and stuff like that. And so it’s sort of, I realized that a lot of stuff we probably don’t even notice, but it was, you know, taken from like, the Egyptian, ancient Egyptian visual culture. A lot of things, a lot of like, national monuments have Egyptian influence, again, things you don’t think about particular architectural styles, you know, in the US and Europe.That is still like something that you would see today.
Sort of outside of like, well, I’m also thinking about film, of course, that’s like something like the Gods of Egypt movie came out a few years ago. The new like, of course, we have the mummy from the 90s with Brendan Fraiser. And even earlier they, you know, the first mummy movie I think was like in the 1930s. But in a lot of movies, you get sort of, of course, they’re using like, you’ll go into an ancient Egyptian tomb and it’s super like hyper stylized and sort of reimagined.
And, but certainly that is still incredibly popular. And they still this is only again sort of tangentially related to just like the physical tomb itself, but I know they have like cults of ISIS like the goddess Isis, and that still I know like even like people are still doing that. So definitely, I think it’s just like in a lot of our visual culture that we don’t even, you know, always think about.
I’m trying to think of anything else in specific. I definitely think jewelry though. Now again, I’ve noticed based off of again, things that you would see within a tomb specifically usually like the Scarab or a Sphynx which you know, might be depicted in a tomb or you’ll have like a physical statue of it. I’ve noticed, like, little jewelry like a necklace and it’ll have like, even if it’s like supposed to not be super ostentatious like they’ll still do the same to learning style, something like that. So yeah.
NENNINGER: I know I totally didn’t notice all of the like Egyptian iconography that’s inspired from just like random popular stores now like during my seminar now I’ve been making eye contact with this, like, triangle shaped statue out in my room forever and it looks like the Eye of Horus.
THOMPSEN: Oh, yeah. Oh, that’s a great one. Like people, I totally missed out on that. I forgot about that. But yeah, people love that. I noticed that on like, like, bracelets, anklets, shirts, things like this, where, you know, you might have seen it, like on a tomb wall. And now it’s like, just like, it’s just manufactured like a like, whatever. Hmm, like, have a shirt with something like that on it. So yeah.
NENNINGER: Um, do you have any final points that you want to make any closing?
THOMPSEN: I guess my only final closing point is if there’s any Egyptologist that ever listened to this. I have over generalized a lot, but I think that it sort of gets the general you know, the main thing points across. Um, and yeah, I have can’t think of any final points. But if you ever get the chance go visit you just and you can go visit a lot of these tombs, so then you can see them in person. Okay.
NENNINGER: It was great talking with you.
THOMPSEN: Thank you so much for having me. It was fun to chat during this global pandemic.
NENNINGER: Definitely!
NENNINGER: So Egyptomania may not be as prevalent as it was in the 20th and 19th centuries, but the remnants of these cultures still remained to this day. In 2018 Chanel’s Metier d’Art show centered around Egyptian iconography specifically inspired by the findings within Tut’s tomb and the Art Deco movement that followed.17 The show was set around the temple of Dendur in the Met, and the models walked around it on a catwalk. The show got a lot of negative criticism due to some of the Western influence on the show rather than a genuine influence of ancient Egyptian art. It toasts the balance between cultural appropriation and appreciation. On the one hand, it brings to light some of the collections of Egyptian art, yet on the other hand, it shouldn’t be labeled as an Egyptian line. The designer is German and it took place in America, but as inspired by the ancient kingdom.
Looking at most of the show, many of the designs are in head to toe gold and the similar style that idealizes Egypt, others completely neutral and despite the Egyptian influence, most of the silhouettes are not similar to what Egyptians were actually wearing, but rather an interpretation of the themes and colors seen on the reliefs, and in the tombs.
Most of the models have some form of gold earring, headpiece, or collar,
and the clothing pieces feature long dresses, golden boots and blazers with coats that reach the calf. Furthermore, most of the sets look like Gucci two pieces which kind of whitewashes the nature of the show. I believe this show is kind of indicative of the way that Egypt has been accepted into our mainstream culture today. It was so prevalent throughout the 1800s and early 1900s, that the somewhat colonialist depictions of Egypt are what are a part of our culture. We accept the inaccurate media about ancient Egypt that prevails over popular culture because it has been so normalized.
Part Six: Conclusion (00:42:12)
[Musical Transition]
So how do tombs tie this all together? Well, I think that the obsession with Egypt in the Western world is ultimately tied to Egyptian tombs and mythology. The tombs to the Ancient Egyptians contain the secrets to a successful journey to the afterlife. And when Europeans came into Egypt and saw the art and architecture wildly different than their own, they wanted to both be associated with it, as it was such a long lasting kingdom with beautiful art and culture, and also to unlock the so called secrets of these tombs. Also most of our media containing Ancient Egypt can be tied back to the tombs. Pyramids were tombs, fashion and art emulating the aspective style was found in tombs, horror stories traced to mummies are found in tombs, and furniture and jewelry, inspired by the findings of Tut’s tomb is just that inspired by a tomb. Furthermore, there’s this pervading idea that ancient Egypt was this eternal dynasty, a dynasty that seemingly conquered death by immortalizing. Its kings and people in the afterlife, and a dynasty that managed to preserve the homes of their dead.
Also the fact that many of the big monuments within Egypt are tombs contributes to the Association of Egypt with death. When European Egyptologist were travelling into Egypt and the pyramids were literally towering over them it might have been easy to generalize and assume that the Egyptians were obsessed with death. Now the Egyptians were certainly fascinated with death, but it would be wrong to label them in this two dimensional light. Combined with the fact that much of Egyptian history was a mystery at the time, the European fascination may have started from the mysterious facade of ancient Egypt, combined with its association with death. Ultimately, I believe that the orientalist views of ancient Egypt that still pervade modern media can be tied to the initial reactions of Europeans to ancient Egyptian tombs, and the ways that their original view of Egypt was spread across the western world
And on that note, thank you for tuning in to this episode of Now as Then! I hope that I gave you guys some insight into the era and to some of the tombs of ancient Egypt. A special thanks to our interviewee, Kylie Thompson, Deidre Whitmore for helping us figure out all of our recording audio, Martin Brennan for helping us with copyright. Simon Lee, Jet Jacobs, and Katherine Kapsidelis for helping us with research and of course, our wonderful instructor, Robyn Price, for helping us put together this project. I’d also love to remind you to check out the podcasts of my peers for more now as then content and this is Sophie Nenninger signing out! Peace!
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Shelley, Percy Bysshe. “Ozymandias.” Gleeditions, 17 Apr.
“West Cemetery.” West Cemetery – Highgate Cemetery, highgatecemetery.org/visit/cemetery/west#featurephoto9.
1 Bard, Kathryn A. “The Egyptian Predynastic: A Review of the Evidence.” Journal of Field Archaeology, vol. 21, no. 3, 1994, pp. 265–288. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/530331. Accessed 17 May 2020.2 Pae, Taavi, et al. “The Formation and Location Features of Estonian Cemeteries.” Journal of Baltic Studies, vol. 37, no. 3, 2006, pp. 277–297. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/43212724. Accessed 27 May 2020.3 BENDERITTER, Thierry. “Temple of Sethy I .” Tombs of Ancient Egypt, www.osirisnet.net/monument/temple_sethy/e_temple_sethy.htm.4 Mojsov, Bojana. “The Ancient Egyptian Underworld in the Tomb of Sety I: Sacred Books of Eternal Life.” The Massachusetts Review, vol. 42, no. 4, 2001, pp. 489–506. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/25091798. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.5 Mojsov, Bojana. “The Ancient Egyptian Underworld in the Tomb of Sety I: Sacred Books of Eternal Life.” The Massachusetts Review, vol. 42, no. 4, 2001, pp. 489–506. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/25091798. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.6 Nyord, Rune. 2013. “Vision and Conceptualization in Ancient Egyptian Art.” In Caballero, Rosario and Javier E. Díaz-Vera (eds), Sensuous cognition: explorations into human sentience: imagination, (e)motion and perception, 135-168. Berlin; Boston: De Gruyter Mouton.7 Mojsov, Bojana. “The Ancient Egyptian Underworld in the Tomb of Sety I: Sacred Books of Eternal Life.” The Massachusetts Review, vol. 42, no. 4, 2001, pp. 489–506. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/25091798. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.8 Brier, Bob. “Napoleon IN EGYPT.” Archaeology, vol. 52, no. 3, 1999, pp. 44–53. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41779247. Accessed 27 May 2020.9 Briefel, Aviva. “Hands of Beauty, Hands of Horror: Fear and Egyptian Art at the Fin De Siècle.”Victorian Studies, vol. 50, no. 2, 2008, pp. 263–271. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40060325. Accessed 16 May 2020.10 “West Cemetery.” West Cemetery – Highgate Cemetery, highgatecemetery.org/visit/cemetery/west#featurephoto9.11 Said, Edward W. 1978. Orientalism. New York: Pantheon Books.12 “Heart Scarab of Hatnefer.” Metmuseum.org,www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545146.13 Goetz, H. “An Irruption of Gothic Style Forms into Indo-Islamic Architecture.” Artibus Asiae, vol. 22, no. 1/2, 1959, pp. 53–58. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/3249143. Accessed 11 June 2020.14 Shelley, Percy Bysshe. “Ozymandias.” Gleeditions, 17 Apr.15 Elliott, Bridget. “Art Deco Worlds in a Tomb: Reanimating Egypt in Modern(Ist) Visual Culture.” South Central Review, vol. 25, no. 1, 2008, pp. 114–135. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40040022. Accessed 4 May 2020.16 Elliott, Bridget. “Art Deco Worlds in a Tomb: Reanimating Egypt in Modern(Ist) Visual Culture.” South Central Review, vol. 25, no. 1, 2008, pp. 114–135. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40040022. Accessed 4 May 2020.17 Bowles, Hamish. “Chanel Pre-Fall 2019 Fashion Show.” Vogue, Vogue, 17 Dec. 2018, www.vogue.com/fashion-shows/pre-fall-2019/chanel/slideshow/collection#9
In this episode, we will discuss how Egyptian pyramids have changed as a symbol of power, from mythological and foundational elements in ancient Egypt to a source of commercialization and attraction in modern Egypt. We will also discuss how this change occurred, under the context of Orientalism and cultural appropriation of elements of the pyramids in written sources, as well as in modern replications that alter what they pyramids were meant to represent.
Daniel Lee,
Undergraduate UCLA
Featuring: Matei Tichindelean, Cotsen
Institute of Archaeology
Transcript [Sec. 1: Introduction]
DANIEL LEE: Thank you for tuning in. I’m Daniel Lee and you’re listening to Now as Then, where we discuss the ways in which ancient Egypt has shaped many aspects of our history and culture, as well as the world we live in today. In this episode, we examine how the pyramid was not only a symbol of the afterlife and royalty, but actually a highly complex structure that has affected aspects of politics, economy, astronomy, and architecture throughout history.
Pyramids. It’s probably safe to say they’re the archaeological symbol of Egypt. In fact, pyramids have become so representative of Egypt that millions of people still visit the Giza pyramids every year today. It’s certainly quite odd to see the pyramids, which symbolized such political and religious power in the past, now being used as tourist attractions.
Just how have pyramids, which originally served as monumentary tombs, become such symbols of commercialization? To understand the history of the pyramid, and how its value as an icon has changed, we’ll first have to talk about its origins.
[Sec. 2: History and Design]
We start from the long, long past of Egypt, and we’re talking way back, like before the first dynasty of the Old Kingdom even began. Back then, Egypt wasn’t really an organized society, but people still lived in smaller social groups in separated settlements. These early societies carried on their first funerary services near “natural pyramids,” or basically mounds or hills that these people settled near to.1 The traditional notion of pyramids as linked to reaching the sun and thus divinity apparently started from this point, but we’ll talk about that later.
The important thing to take away from this tradition, however, is that the geometric shape of a pyramid eventually became associated with exclusivity to the higher classes of society, as larger natural pyramids were reserved to people of power, such as generals or officials. It’s pretty similar to how we ascribe greater value to things at the top of the pyramid, which is the highest and most exclusive point. Think of whenever you draw a social or a food pyramid. It’s not that strange at all!
Still, man-made pyramids would be constructed several centuries later. J. Donald Fernie’s article “Marginalia: Astronomy And The Great Pyramid” provides great insight into the history of the development of pyramidal design.2 In the article, Fernie states that the first pharaohs of the Old Kingdom weren’t even buried in artificial pyramids, and instead in underground burial chambers called “mastabas,” which were called so because of their resemblance to brick benches in villages of the same name. The transition from rectangular mud mastabas to the more stone-cut and limestone-built pyramids happened rather suddenly, with the first recorded pyramid being the Step Pyramid at Saqqara, also known as the Pyramid of Djoser, the first king of the third dynasty, from the 27th century BCE. In comparison, the Great Pyramid of Giza was only built about a century later! Sadly, a lot of the pyramid building ended by the 6th dynasty of Egypt, though there was a small revival later when the Kingdom of Kush was in power.
What’s fascinating about these early pyramids is that they weren’t actually simple in their design, but rather used very specific measurements in their construction, which involved components of astronomy. For instance, the Descending Passage in the Great Pyramid of Giza lines up with the celestial north pole. Other theories exist, such as that the 10:9 ratio of the pyramid and its height multiplied is close to the actual speed of light, or that its base lengths divided by its height is close to the mathematical component pi. While these relations are indeed fascinating, it’s important for us to be wary of how much of these relations were truly intended given the scientific limitations, such as the measurement of light, at that time. The opposite is still true, but we’ll talk more about that when we discuss European pyramidology, so stay tuned!
While specific measurements of the pyramid leave some room for argument, pyramids certainly did contain components of architectural complexity. While the initial theories of pyramid construction involved the use of an external ramp in tandem with things like cranes or corkscrew design, modern archaeological evidence actually leads to the conclusion that the pyramids were built using internal ramps constructed within them3 External ramps would still be used, but they would later be stripped to form the inner parts of the pyramids as the build progressed, so that no resources would be wasted. Talk about cannibalism!
Because of their complexity, pyramids also often experienced architectural failures that caused distortions in the overall shape of the pyramids, as seen from Kurt Mendelssohn’s instances of failures in pyramidal architectural designs from his 1971 article.4 Given their size, the majority of the pyramid not forming the inner walls or the exterior can contribute to pressurization, which can lead to the crumbling of the pyramid. The Meidum Pyramid was abandoned mid-construction for this reason, resulting in a step pyramid-like structure, while the Bent Pyramid was altered to form a more stable structure after an initial crumbling. In fact, this is exactly why the pyramid is called bent! When ancient Egyptians rebuilt the pyramid, they made the upper part have a smaller slope, giving it an oddly curvy look.
So why are the history and the design of the pyramids important? Well, it’s important to take note that larger pyramids built during the Old Kingdom, such as the Great Pyramid of Giza, didn’t just take their symbol of power from nothing. Though they differed in complexity, pyramids in Egypt incorporated architectural design as a way of amplifying the various ritual symbols ascribed to their earlier forms of burial mounds, such as elements of the sun and the stars, or even the afterlife. In the next section, we’ll discuss more on how these ritual elements are represented within pyramids, and how they can form an image of “mysticism.”
[Sec. 3: Ritual Functions]
In ancient Egypt, religion was more than just one solid belief. Instead, it was more like a larger belief system that touched on many cult values from various cultures, and attempted to group them together through the use of large ideas represented by major deities. It’s no wonder that each deity has such radically opposing characteristics in each myth. Sometimes, deities could even represent completely opposite ideas. A great example of this is the deity Seth, who is at times regarded as the destroyer of the world, while at times its protector!
One factor that played into unifying cult beliefs was actually through building pyramids. Linked with the representation of wealth and power, pyramids were ritual tombs constructed to commemorate the passing of a figure of authority. It makes sense, then, that the greatest pyramids would be built by those of royalty. Within pyramids, ritual texts combined ideas from different cults as a form of establishing political stability.
The strongest case for this can be seen from pyramid texts on divine conflict. Divine conflict is a recurring theme in ancient Egyptian texts, often representing the real conflicts that took place between nations or religious cults.5 This also meant that they would record stories of royal succession, a hot topic when it comes to conflict in Egypt, through divine representations. One of the most prominent divine conflicts is that between Horus and Seth, the two successors of Osiris following his death. In various written forms, such as the famous Contendings of Horus and Seth, the conflict of royal authority that leads to justification of succession of power becomes the center of the narrative. That might make the story sound like a serious war epic, but it really wasn’t. The Contendings of Horus and Seth was actually more of a comedic twist on the famous conflict, and even involved vulgar actions such as taking Set’s testicles! If you want to hear more about the myths about Horus and Seth, you can check out Season 1 Episode 4: Falcons and Pharaohs, or more specifically about Seth in Season 2 Episode 1: Seth Apart.
In particular, the physical components of each deity, as in Horus’ eye and Seth’s testicles, serve as symbols of the political struggle through their mutilation throughout the narrative. Hence, the eye of Horus, the victor of the struggle, became the symbol of royal strength and political power in Egypt. In other cases, the identification of Horus with Osiris, the neutral, observing entity, hints to the importance of the concept of order and unification within the narrative of pyramid texts. The trinity of Horus, Osiris, and Isis would also later be used in the Coptic tradition in its emulation of the holy trinity of the Bible, and similarly the three angles of the pyramid as well as the three pyramids at Giza, ascribing greater ritual relevance of the pyramid. If you want to learn more about Isis’ representations in other cultures, or the Cult of Isis, or Coptic depictions of Isis’ motherhood of Horus, you can check our Season 2 Episode 4: The Purpose of Isis or Season 1 Episode 5: Like a Virgin, Madonna and Child, respectively.
Of course, the pyramid also has its more well-known ritual significance in its importance as a passage to the afterlife. As we talked about before, pyramids have long been associated with the divinity, and thus more astral concepts, such as the sun and the sky, which is why pyramids were built with such astronomical calculations in the first place.
This linkage of the pyramidal shape, which points towards the sun, is also found in Mesoamerican pyramids. For instance, Aztecan pyramids, such as the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan, were used as altars for human sacrifice to gods. Interestingly, early Mesoamerican pyramids also served as burial mounds, similar to Egyptian natural pyramids. Here’s a little sneak peek to an upcoming interview with Matei Tichindelean, a first-year archeology student at Cotsen Institute, where he explains why such parallels exist, even when these civilizations existed in completely different time and space, and thus without contact:
MATEI TICHINDELEAN: So pyramids, now I guess if we’re talking about Mesoamerica and Egypt, we first need to make sure that these are two different types of “pyramids.” Mesoamerica is really mounds of Earth that are built up, and then they are usually the outer shell, sometimes of stone. Whereas in Egypt, I guess it depends on what pyramid you’re looking at, but let’s say for example the Great Pyramid—those are the Great Pyramids of Giza—those are all made out of limestone, blocks of limestone. Now, they are also thousands of years apart. The Giza pyramids, the big pyramids of Khufu, the biggest one, the tallest one, that was completed around 2500 BCE, whereas the pyramids in let’s say Tenochtitlan, those were done about 800 AD, if I remember correctly. Don’t quote me directly on that date. But, in the 80s, so at least 2000 years apart. And I think when it comes to pyramids, which you do find different types of pyramids all over the world, there are—it’s one of the easiest ways to stock up dirt, piles of dirt, and form a tall structure and not have it collapse. That’s the key. To not having it collapse. And humans, found out everywhere, well a lot of places, that that is a structure that could support a lot of weight, and it can be built to a pretty significant height. So I think that’s where you find parallels. If you’re talking about the structures of the pyramid, the form of it.
LEE: Egyptian rulers were often held as members of divinity that descended to rule Egypt, so their deaths were taken as their “return” to the celestial kingdom in Egyptian religion, or, in simpler words, ascension to the heavens. Because of their importance to royal authority, pyramids often contained texts that described the process of ascension for royal figures in greater detail.6 Generally, the pharaoh would go through the process of the purification of the soul, which occurs through prayers and spells, and eventually leads to the “ejection of essence,” almost like an astral projection, except it’s permanent. The ejected essence then goes through the general processes of transmission and identification of the soul. In this step, the pharaoh’s soul may be guided by other deities that recognize the pharaoh in the process. Lastly, the soul must pass through the celestial gate and the river behind it, and be recognized by Atum-Re, the first being, in order to be accepted into the heavens. Sounds like an awfully complex way to die!
These texts might sound like disconnected tales that represent different ideas, but they actually paint the same picture! Whether based on unification or ascension, their use of deities gives insight to the religious authority of the ruler of Egypt, tied to their political authority. And because they were also a place to store such knowledge and stories for an exclusive group of priests and nobles, pyramids thus took on the image as a site of religious practice central to Egyptian culture. The image of “mysticism” created by this religious association would later become the source for its cultural representations in other societies.
But before we get to that, let’s quickly go over some of the different functions pyramids had in ancient Egyptian society. The pyramid has multiple sides, after all!
[Sec. 4: Other Social Functions in Ancient Egypt]
While pyramids had great influence in the religion of ancient Egypt, they most certainly had other uses in politics, economics, and society.
As we discussed previously, pyramids had great political significance in bringing order to a fractured nation. Even if religious texts were reserved for people such as priests, nobles, and pharaohs, they still carried the important themes relating to unification within the kingdom. This is especially important since Egypt was a kingdom initially separated into Upper and Lower kingdoms! Pyramids thus allowed these ideas to be carried through multiple generations, becoming a component of Egyptian centralization through the use of identification with diverse ritual images.
Furthermore, pyramids had an important economical function regarding the employment of citizens, as discussed in Mendelssohn’s article. Contrary to popular belief, Egyptian pyramids were not constructed with the use of slaves, but instead mostly through the mass employment of paid and willing workers. Now, I know what you’re thinking. Why waste so many resources on a seemingly pointless and enormous project? Well, the entire process was actually beneficial to ancient Egypt because it prevented unemployment and coincided with the crop cycle of Egypt.
Because of the nature of the annual Nile floods, during Akhet, or the inundation season following the harvest and before the growing of the new crops, many farmers would be left unemployed for several months. Building pyramids provided temporary work for farmers, which consisted of the majority of Egypt’s population, and thus an economic source. In fact, for a considerable period of Egypt this interchanging between occupations became a core of the Egyptian economy, to the point where it became dependent on the activity of pyramid-building, which is why pyramids would often be constructed while the pharaoh was alive, and also why multiple pyramids were built during a pharaoh’s life. For more information on how the Nile flood affected Egyptian society, you can check out Season 2 Episode 2: Journey Down the Nile.
Pyramids also contributed to various social and religious organizations. Archaeological records reveal that in some instances there existed certain “pyramid towns” in between pyramid complexes, which were inhabited by cult members and nobles.7 In particular, written documents such as stelae and excavations of walls around the vicinity of the Nefirirkare’s pyramid strongly suggest the existence of settlements near the pyramid. While the cult was an exclusive group intended for ritual service following the construction of the complex, pyramid towns nevertheless suggest that pyramids encouraged social organization in the form of cult hegemony.
So there you have it. Even if they were initially meant to serve as monumental tombs, pyramids were actually central to many elements of ancient Egypt, defining aspects of its social, economical, and religious organizations. It’s no wonder, then, that pyramids became the symbol of ancient Egypt, not only for their monumental value, but given its impact on ancient Egpytian culture as a whole!
Still, the value of the pyramids lies beyond Egypt, given its inspirations to other civilizations such as ancient Greek, Arabic, and modern European societies, which would inevitably change what it was meant to represent.
[Sec. 5: In Other Cultures]
Pyramids have been a representative icon of Egypt as far back as the early classical era. The earliest written source that accounts the pyramids dates back to about 430 BCE, from Book 2 in Herodotus’ “The History of Herodotus.”8 In it, Herodotus accounts the ongoing construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza at the time, claiming that the entire build took twenty years of labor by about a hundred thousand people, with the construction of the causeway taking ten years. While controversial for his accounts of being in Egypt, the general accuracy of the description of the pyramids does suggest that Herodotus at least took accounts from other Greek travelers, and that Greeks had had, though unwritten, knowledge of pyramids far before the source was written. Greek sources further suggest that monumental structures such as pyramids was one factor that encouraged travel to Egypt by many well-known Greek scholars, such as Solon, Thales, and Plutarch, similar to their value in tourism today.9
Given their place in the Middle East, pyramids also became inspirations for legends in Arabic culture. Take the example of A. Fodor’s article, which introduces three Arabic legends that have their own claims to who built the pyramids: Hermes, Surid, and Shaddad ibn Ad.10 In the tales, Hermes builds the pyramids in order to store the knowledge he gains from God, while Surid and Shaddad ibn Ad build the pyramids in preparation for a catastrophe. In particular, these three legends have clear biblical connections, with Hermes corresponding to Moses’ acceptance of the testaments, and Surid and Shaddad ibn Ad corresponding to Noah’s building of the ark in preparation for the flood. These legends are instances of the harmonization of beliefs in the Coptic tradition, with tales from the Jewish Bible becoming the basis for Egyptian culture, as well as the acceptance of the religious value of the pyramids by Arabic societies.
Another instance of the development of the Coptic tradition in Egypt can be seen from Masoudi’s “Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems,” written some time before his death in 956 CE.11 Masoudi provides a Coptic account that Surid built the pyramids to store elements of knowledge, as in the Hermes tales, while the priests explain that the Coptic language, in which the Coptic tradition is built, originated from the syncretism of ancient Egyptian inscriptions in pyramids with the Greek alphabet. Thus, Arabic accounts provide a strong case that Coptic traditions originated from the interaction of foreign culture with the pyramid texts.
While pyramids were certainly influenced under the rule of Greco-Roman and Arabic empires, they underwent another large wave of change following the age of European colonialism. One of the famous stories, though the accuracy of its details is up for debate, is that Napoleon Bonaparte entered the Great Pyramid of Giza. One account, written when Napoleon was still alive, gives a descriptive quote on his exploration of the pyramid, providing insight into the majestic value ascribed by Europeans to the Great Pyramid, much like in the Old Kingdom.12
“He afterwards penetrated into the interior, where he found a passage a hundred feet long and three feet broad, which conducted him by a rapid descent towards the apartments that served as a tomb for Pharaoh, who erected this monument. A second passage, much injured, and leading towards the summit of the pyramid, carried him successively over two platforms and thence to a vaulted gallery, in one of the walls of which the place of a mummy was seen, which was believed to have been the spouse of one of the Pharaohs” (Robertson 73-74).
Along with newfound exploration and settlement into Egypt, modern history introduced the period of Enlightenment, in which European scholars became fascinated in the study of the values held by the pyramid. Primarily, this “pyramidology” founded by western scholars, while rediscovering the mathematical and astronomical factors included in the construction of the pyramids, also contained erroneous assumptions, such as the theory that pyramids were built with slave labor.
These “scientific” elements of the pyramids were thus also manipulated for other purposes, one of which was used to support nationalism.13 John Taylor, a British scholar that continued research from other pyramidologists like Edme-François Jomard and even Sir Isaac Newton, associated the British inch with the Egyptian standard of measurement that was incorporated in the construction of the pyramids. Taylor’s discovery of this “perfect unit” allowed him to be acclaimed by renowned scholars, such as the astronomer Piazzi Smyth and the mathematician Sir John Herschel. The association of the British inch with the pyramids allowed the measurement to be regarded as a divine figure, revealing the extent to which the pyramids were heralded as as a symbol of mysticism by European scholars, as well as the ways in which pyramidology was used to build a divine image of the expanding European empires.
When learning about ancient Egypt, it’s important for us to take into account how we’re influenced by these assumptions, which are more often based on coincidence than archaeological evidence! Such “theories” undermine the technology of ancient Egypt, denying the possibility of carrying such knowledge, and often lead to conclusions that radically differ from what is found from ancient records. One such theory even goes as far as to suggest that Egyptian pyramids were built by aliens! Clearly, we need to take on how our views of the ancient world, and the colonialist views towards Egyptian civilizations shape our beliefs. Take it away, Matei!
TICHINDELEAN: So I guess I’ll introduce myself. My name is Matei Tichindelean, I’m a first-year archaeology student here in the Cotsen Institute, but I study Egyptology. I’ve dug in Egypt a few times, in a tomb in a temple site. I’ve dug in the American Southwest, and Roman sites in Romania as well.
LEE: So pyramids have also been—have been assigned a lot of religious value. So were pyramids ever used for religious reasons outside of their original construction? Like how the famous Hagia Sophia was remodeled to fit the Islamic empire that conquered it?
TICHINDELEAN: That’s a good question. And are we just talking here about the Egyptian pyramids, or are we talking about pyramids in general?
LEE: I’m talking mostly about how Egyptian pyramids might have been, like, religiously appropriated by—culturally appropriated by a different civilization.
TICHINDELEAN: So yeah, they definitely have religious connotations when it comes to ancient Egypt. And those for the most part remain the same but it changed slightly, for example after the completion of the 4th dynasty pyramids, the big ones in Giza, people continued to build pyramids, but they also built smaller ones, and temples to the sun that had a component that was a pyramid. I guess you could also look at, later on, private tombs, so elites in ancient Egypts could also build a smaller pyramid over the entrance to their tomb, which again has a religious connotation. But in terms of them being appropriated for other religious purposes, I mean, I can speak to the Islamic history in Egypt, because I’m not an expert in that, for a little bit, but look at nowadays, there are different spiritual traditions that are more modern, like Kemeticism, for example, that have close connections to ancient Egypt. Kemet being the ancient Egyptian name for the land of Egypt. So there’s this whole Egyptomania that started up mid-1800s, with Napoleon’s invasion of Egypt, where it spread throughout Europe especially. And pyramid-building in itself got incorporated with a lot of Christian—I don’t want to say Christian traditions—but in Christian cemeteries you see pyramids as a symbol of eternity, of enduring, of life. So it’s something that has been, because it’s so imposing, it has been incorporated in many different types of outlooks. But, yeah, I guess then it depends on what you mean by religion, because they all have some kind of symbolic meaning to it, that you could interpret as a religion. Kemeticism, people who have practiced that believe it’s—I mean, they could describe it as a form of religion.
LEE: So, in that case, in what ways could Egyptian pyramids have been affected by its portrayal in western media, or in cultural representations in general that may have altered its meaning?
TICHINDELEAN: I mean, I think when people think of Egypt, one of the first things they think about is the pyramids. That and maybe mummies, right. But as we have seen from the 2016 presidential election, I think that was one of the things that was brought up by a presidential candidate—I can’t remember his name now—Carson?
LEE: Ben Carson?
TICHINDELEAN: Yes, yes. Ben Carson suggested that the pyramids had a different function, that they had, if you remember, he said that they’re more like granaries. We don’t really have any evidence to show any of that. I mean, there are different chambers inside of it, and a typical thing that you would have in an Egyptian funeral, which is what a pyramid is, it’s a tomb, it’s actually a, more correctly, it’s a regeneration machine. Some Egyptologists describe it as a regeneration machine. Yeah, I’m going off on a tangent here. But yeah, in terms of western culture I think they have been associated again, starting in the mid-1800s, with this spiritualistic kind of Orientalist, almost, idea of people being connected to the ancestors, or at least people in that area, or people in the past being closer to nature. But I think one of the most damaging ways that western media specifically has been, interacting with pyramids, it would be probably the History show Ancient Aliens, which for many different reasons, well, I’m sure you probably know, one of the claims says that they were built by aliens, which is very problematic, in my opinion, it implies that it actually has a long history of these kinds of claims that started off when the Europeans first started visiting Egypt, about how their culture could not be “advanced enough” to build something like this, so therefore it must be something else. It must be something that is out of this world. Because only white people build beautiful things, like Norte Dame or, I don’t know, Eiffel Tower, or any cathedrals in Europe. People in this era could not have built it. So shows like that, I think, do a great disservice, never mind about history, but to the portrayal of people from that region, ancient and modern.
LEE: Well, given its regard for its symbol of mysticity, what are some other ways that pyramids have become cultural icons outside of Egypt?
TICHINDELEAN: I brought up the fact that they started to become incorporated as a symbol of eternity, especially in Christian burials, and I think you see that a lot in England especially, where it first started. I mean, if you see public buildings, for example I did my masters at the University of Liverpool, and all buildings there have little sphinxes and pyramids on top of them, because that was the architectural style, this Orientalist style that was popular in the early 1900s. And then we got it, again, incorporated into Christian burials, kind of the headstones in the shape of the pyramids or obelisks, to signify this enduring, I guess, memory, in cases of cemeteries. Or you have it on the dollar bill, right. It’s a symbol of—well actually I’m not exactly a hundred percent sure what it is—but I think it has to do with the masons, the Freemasons, so these secret societies again incorporated these ancient symbols to perhaps give themselves a more credible heritage, them being ancient societies that had knowledge passed down from thousands of years ago. That’s some of the ways that I could think about right now.
LEE: Alright, could you tell us other instances of pyramid-building outside of Egypt that people may not have heard about?
TICHINDELEAN: Yeah, I mean, the amazing structures, and I guess pyramids or mounds, however you may want to call it here in America, at Cahokia, next to St. Louis, for example. I mean I think the base of that is way bigger than the Great Pyramid, the base of it, not in terms of the height, but the base of it. And in terms of manpower and work that went into it, it was probably equivalent. I mean again, as I said, these are the most stable structures to build, so there are, for example, even in the South Pacific, there is some evidence of pyramid building, that means stones being kind of stacked. They’re not as big as the ones in Egypt or Mesoamerica, but again, if we’re talking about pyramids, it depends how you would define a pyramid. If you’re talking about the shape, then you have many instances throughout history where you can see that.
LEE: That’s all the questions I’ve got. Do you have anything else you might want to say to whoever’s listening to the podcast?
TICHINDELEAN: In terms of, I guess, pyramid-building, there is a huge history spanning almost 2000 years within Egypt itself, of pyramid-building, and that continues not only in Egypt, actually. The country with the most pyramids is Sudan. They’re smaller than the ones in Egypt, but the most surviving pyramids will be in Sudan. And they have been incorporated from an early on tradition in Egyptian history as a symbol of power and of regeneration that in order to really understand, even within these periods in Egyptian history what they mean, you have to look at them in specific contexts. So, you know, perhaps a pyramid that was built in, let’s say, 400 AD in Nubia, did not have exactly the same meaning to that person that built it, as the Great Pyramid, whether we’re talking about religious or really maybe—I mean they were both in a way tombs, but, yeah.
LEE: Okay, I think that pretty much wraps up the interview, then. Thank you for your time, Matei.
TICHINDELEAN: Yeah, no problem.
LEE: As long as Egypt has been a subject of foreign written history, it has also clearly been a subject of cultural appropriation. In this section, we saw how identification, assumption, and manipulation of elements of the pyramid each altered the image of ancient Egypt as it became represented in other cultures. Certain aspects would be emphasized, while others would be underrepresented. As we transition into the modern world, pyramids certainly change in what they represent in society, and we can attribute that change to these cases of appropriation!
[Sec. 6: Modern Identity and Conclusion]
The pyramid in modern society continues to be taken as a symbol of mysticism, often in an exaggerated form from that of the early classical period. In one such case, Semir Osmanagic, a Bosnian museum director, claims certain natural hills to be the “largest man-made pyramids” in history! The media attention taken on by the site reveals the existing fervor over the mystical identity of the pyramid, as well as the extent of the harm that pseudoarchaeology can do to official archaeology. A more well-known instance of false information contributing to the legacy of the pyramids is in the case of the Illuminati, which is associated with conspiracy theories of secret societies such as the Freemasons. You can even see the famous icon of the Eye of Providence contained within the pyramid on the back of your one-dollar bill!
Pyramids today have also been associated with power or authority, and continue to be built for reasons similar to that of its original construction. In modern context, the pyramidal design is also linked with commercialization, given the iconic value of the symbol. Many famous examples of modern pyramids can be found in major cities in the U.S., such as Luxor Las Vegas, which serves as both a hotel and casino, and the Memphis Pyramid, which was originally an arena but now serves as a location for Bass Pro Shops. Though smaller in size, the art museum of Louvre in Paris is another well known example that incorporates the pyramid into a design.
From simple burial mounds to the Great Pyramid of Giza, pyramids throughout history may have varied in design, but all of them have nonetheless spawned continuous discussions about their religious and social importances, as well as their influences to other societies in Europe and the Middle East. Even today, pyramids continue to make their legacy in the modern world, as an embodiment of cultism and power.
So to answer the question, how have we changed in our interpretation of the pyramid, throughout the four and a half plus millennia that they’ve existed in? Well, we’ve seen how in both the ancient and the modern worlds, pyramids have acted as icons of power. In ancient Egypt, pyramids were built in order to guide those in power to the afterlife, often ascribing them to divinity. Pyramids were also important to ancient Egyptian society as a whole, carrying many economic and social functions. However, we’ve also seen how over time representations of pyramids in other cultures have caused the cultural importance of the pyramids to be diluted, and rather emphasize its religious functions to the point of exaggeration. Modern representations rather use the pyramidal structure as a point of attraction, and a source of commercialization, due to its distorted representation from Egypt’s history of cultural appropriation.
Still, another way to look at this is that the pyramid has still survived as an icon of authority and fascination over ancient history that humans have tried to emulate ever since, no matter how much it may have changed as a symbol. The original builders of the pyramid may be gone now, but the pyramid still exists!
This episode concludes Season 2 of Now as Then! If you’re interested in more content like this, make sure to check out other episodes of Now as Then, and you can read in greater detail from this episode’s bibliography. Shout-out to Deidre Whitmore of Digital Archaeology Lab Cotsen Institute, Simon Lee, Katherine Kapsidelis, Jet Jacobs of Library Special Collections, and Martin Brennan of Scholarly Communication Education for making this podcast possible, and special thanks to Matei Tichindelean for this episode’s interview.
Otherwise, thank you for listening, and stay safe!
Works Cited Armayor, O.K. “Did Herodotus Ever Go to Egypt.” Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, 1978, 59–73.
Boorstin, Daniel J. “Afterlives of the Great Pyramid.” The Wilson Quarterly (1976-), vol. 16, no. 3, 1992, pp. 130–138. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40258353. Accessed 4 May 2020.
Brier, Bob. “How to Build a Pyramid.” Archaeology, vol. 60, no. 3, 2007, pp. 22–27. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41780241. Accessed 4 May 2020
Broke For Free. “Something Elated.” MP3 file, created 8 July 2011. https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Broke_For_Free/Something_EP/Broke_For_Free_omething_EP_-_05_Something_Elated
Davis, Whitney M. “The Ascension-Myth in the Pyramid Texts.” Journal of Near Eastern Studies, vol. 36, no. 3, 1977, pp. 161–179. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/545152. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
Ejsmond, Wojciech. “Natural Pyramids of Ancient Egypt: From Emulations of Monarchs to Royal Burials.” Ägypten Und Levante / Egypt and the Levant, vol. 28, 2018, pp. 169–180. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/26664988. Accessed 4 May 2020.
Fernie, J. Donald. “Marginalia: Astronomy And The Great Pyramid.” American Scientist, vol. 92, no. 5, 2004, pp. 406–409. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/27858446. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
Fodor, A. “The Origins of the Arabic Legends of the Pyramids.” Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, vol. 23, no. 3, 1970, pp. 335–363. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/23656988. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
Fritze, R. H. Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession, and Fantasy. 2016. Herodotus. “The History of Herodotus.”. Translated by George Rawlinson, 1858. The Internet Classics Archive, http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.mb.txt. Accessed 17 May 2020.
Kampschror, Beth. “Pyramid Scheme.” Archaeology, vol. 59, no. 4, 2006, pp. 22–28. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41781146. Accessed 4 May 2020.
Mas’ûdi, Ali-Abu’l-Hassan. Historical Encyclopaedia: Entitled “Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems”. Oriental Translation Fund of Great Britain and Ireland, 1841.
Mendelssohn, Kurt. “A Scientist Looks at the Pyramids: Engineering Evidence Connected with the Building of the Great Pyramids Suggests Conclusions That Go Far beyond the Problems of Pyramid Design.” American Scientist, vol. 59, no. 2, 1971, pp. 210–220. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/27829540. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
Mid-Air Machine. “At Least It Is.” MP3 file, created 5 Sep. 2019. https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Ask%20Again/Midnight_Caravan/At_Least_It_Is
Podington Bear. “Starling.” MP3 file, created 3 April 2013. https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Solo_Instruments/Starling
Robertson, Hume. An Impartial History of the Life of Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of France and King of Italy, from His Youth to 1808. Mithra Jones, 1808.
Tobin, Vincent Arieh. “Divine Conflict in the Pyramid Texts.” Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, vol. 30, 1993, pp. 93–110. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40000229. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.
Verner, Miroslav. “Pyramid Towns of Abusir.” Studien Zur Altägyptischen Kultur, vol. 41, 2012, pp. 407–410. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41812236. Accessed 4 May 2020.
Xylo Ziko. “Phase 2.” MP3 file, created 12 July 2018. https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Xylo-Ziko/Phase_2/Phase_2
1 Ejsmond, Wojciech. “Natural Pyramids of Ancient Egypt: From Emulations of Monarchs to Royal Burials.” Ägypten Und Levante / Egypt and the Levant, vol. 28, 2018, pp. 169–180. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/26664988. Accessed 4 May 2020.2 Fernie, J. Donald. “Marginalia: Astronomy And The Great Pyramid.” American Scientist, vol. 92, no. 5, 2004, pp. 406–409. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/27858446. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.3 Brier, Bob. “How to Build a Pyramid.” Archaeology, vol. 60, no. 3, 2007, pp. 22–27. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41780241. Accessed 4 May 20204 Mendelssohn, Kurt. “A Scientist Looks at the Pyramids: Engineering Evidence Connected with the Building of the Great Pyramids Suggests Conclusions That Go Far beyond the Problems of Pyramid Design.” American Scientist, vol. 59, no. 2, 1971, pp. 210–220. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/27829540. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.5 Tobin, Vincent Arieh. “Divine Conflict in the Pyramid Texts.” Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, vol. 30, 1993, pp. 93–110. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40000229. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.6 Davis, Whitney M. “The Ascension-Myth in the Pyramid Texts.” Journal of Near Eastern Studies, vol. 36, no. 3, 1977, pp. 161–179. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/545152. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.7 Verner, Miroslav. “Pyramid Towns of Abusir.” Studien Zur Altägyptischen Kultur, vol. 412012, pp. 407–410. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41812236. Accessed 4 May 2020.8 Herodotus. “The History of Herodotus.”. Translated by George Rawlinson, 1858. The Internet Classics Archive, http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.mb.txt. Accessed 17 May 2020.9 Fritze, R. H. Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession, and Fantasy. 2016.10 Fodor, A. “The Origins of the Arabic Legends of the Pyramids.” Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, vol. 23, no. 3, 1970, pp. 335–363. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/23656988. Accessed 16 Apr. 2020.11 Mas’ûdi, Ali-Abu’l-Hassan. Historical Encyclopaedia: Entitled “Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems”. Oriental Translation Fund of Great Britain and Ireland, 1841.12 Robertson, Hume. An Impartial History of the Life of Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of France and King of Italy, from His Youth to 1808. Mithra Jones, 1808.13 Boorstin, Daniel J. “Afterlives of the Great Pyramid.” The Wilson Quarterly (1976-), vol. 16, no. 3, 1992, pp. 130–138. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40258353. Accessed 4 May 2020.
Did Egyptian art inspire Christian art and even modern photography? This podcast is meant to explore the mother and child iconography type throughout different cultures, religions, and times. The discussion starts by describing the statue of Isis and Horus and then moves onto multiforms of it, including Coptic Orthodox depictions of Mary and Jesus, Renaissance variations of Madonna and Child, and more modern examples. Listen to learn and solve the riddle embedded within the podcast!
Also featured:
Father Isaac Androus
Coptic Priest
Danielle Candelora
PhD Candidate, UCLA
Not pictured: Sofia McConnell
Transcript [Intro music plays]
Section 1: Introduction (0:11) Alysa: Welcome to the Now as Then podcast season 1 episode 5 “Like a Virgin: Mother and Child”. In this episode, we are going to be talking about the evolution in depictions of the image of mother and child — in specific, the icon of Isis and Horus of Pharaonic Egypt. My name is Alysa Rallistan and joining me today we have Jasmine Bishara and Mary Abdelnour focusing in on the Coptic image of mother and child.
Jasmine: Hi Alysa thank you for this great introduction! As you were saying, my name is Jasmine and today I will be joining you to talk about the representation of the image of mother and child, like the statue of Isis and Horus, but within the Coptic church from 42 AD until today.
Mary: My name is Mary and I am also going to be joining today’s discussion about the different depictions of the mother and child type throughout time and in different regions to analyze how the views on this type of image have evolved. We will also be asking a special question soon, and we will provide you with hints throughout the entire episode. Will you be able to find the answer to our question before we tell it to you in the end? Listen carefully!
Alysa: We also have Kim Phan with us today who will be talking about the transition of this mother and child image in light of the Renaissance.
Kim: What’s up, I’m Kim. We are starting off with some background and diving into Pharaonic Egypt. Then we’re going to explore the Coptic angle of this mother and child icon (Coptic is the Christian era of Egypt for those of you who don’t know), hop on over to Europe and see how it developed there and then talk about some more modern examples! Hopefully in the end, we will see how by itself, the icon is nothing more than a figure or an image, but when it is adopted by various groups with distinct cultural, religious and social views, it can be depicted differently and therefore interpreted in different ways! We hope you enjoy what we have for you. Now, let’s just jump into it!
Section 2: Ancient Egyptian Representation of the Image of Mother and Child (1:54) Alysa: To trace back to this mother and child image, we should introduce to you the infamous bronze statuette that is dated to around the Late period of Ancient Egypt and depicts the goddess Isis sitting on a low backed throne nursing a small Horus who simply sits on her lap.1
Jasmine: Yeah actually a little background that I found on the goddess Isis and her son Horus was that they were both alive during the 5th dynasty according to where their names were found in the Pyramid Texts, which stated that Isis bore her child Horus from Osiris.
Kim: If you didn’t already know, Osiris is the firstborn of the Earth god and Sky goddess and, after some family drama that we will get into later, became the Lord of the Underworld and Judge of the Dead. Horus was actually conceived after Osiris’ death and following Osiris’ resurrection because he is cool like that.2 Check out Now as Then: Episode 4 for more details and fun but he’s not really in the picture for this podcast so catch you later Osiris!
Jasmine: Allrighttt we’ll get back to Osiris in few minutes, but before we do so, I wanted to talk a little bit about the structural form of the statue of Isis and Horus. In this statue and actually in most statues of Isis, she is nearly always depicted in anthropomorphic form, meaning that she is given human characteristics and attributes as opposed to being depicted as a goddess. This statue shows Isis in her most beloved pose.
Mary: Yeah, specifically, the statue depicts Isis breastfeeding her son Horus. This was a very popular statue during pharaonic Egypt, and it was basically found everywhere like household altars and drawings. It was also worn by women in miniature talismans. You could really see, in each type of media on which Isis and Horus are presented, that Isis is sitting on a plain throne with her left hand on Horus’ back for support, offering her left breast to the infant. She is actually depicted that way, because of her role in Egyptian mythology as a protector.
mystical music to cue the myth of Isis
Once upon a time, in a land far, far away
Alysa: car halt sounds Weeellllll, approximately 7,767 miles away from California…
Mary: The priests of Heliopolis developed the myth of Isis. As we have mentioned before, Isis became a queen when she married the king of Egypt, Osiris. But jealous Seth, Osiris’s brother, trapped Osiris in a wooden chest, covered it in lead, threw it in the Nile, and became king. Isis searched for the chest and found it in… (Where did Isis find the body of Osiris? Stay tuned). She brought back Osiris’s body to Egypt, but angry Seth hacked Osiris into pieces and scattered them. Isis found all the pieces, put Osiris together, and got pregnant with Horus.
She hid her son and protected him until he was fully grown and could avenge his father’s death and reclaim the throne.3
music fades out
Kim: And that’s why, folks, she was seen as the goddess of protection and a role model for all women.
Jasmine: We can actually see a VERY clear connection to her role as a strong woman that is illustrated in her clothing. I am actually a huge fan of her horned crown that she adopted from the goddess Hathor during the Late Period of Pharaonic Egypt, which was from 712 BC to 323 BC. Not only did she get that crown from Hathor, but she also got her vulture headdress that was known to emphasize the role of goddesses as royal mothers. Meanwhile, Horus wears an amulet on his chest, which was seen as a common feature for the child gods.
surprise music (airplane announcements sounds)
Mary: Here is hint #1! This place was the chief harbor for the export of cedar and other valuable wood to Egypt. Eventually, it became a great trading center! 4
exit surprise music
Alysa: To help our understanding of the stylistic developments and provide a more holistic view of the possible importance of the mother and child in Ancient Egyptian iconography we have PhD candidate Danielle Candelora to expand on this with her expertise…
Section 3: Interview with Danielle Candelora on Ancient Egyptian iconography (5:38) Danielle: My name is Danielle Candelora. I’m a fifth year PhD candidate in the Near Eastern Languages and Cultures Department, and I’m specializing in Egyptian archaeology. Specifically, my dissertation research looks at immigration in the ancient world and a group of people who immigrated from what’s now Israel into northern Egypt and how they sort of adapted to life in their new home. Yeah, so I look at a lot of sort of cross-cultural issues of identity.
Kim: So, what is your knowledge of the statue of Isis and Horus?
Danielle: So, the particular form of the statue is extremely popular, especially in later periods of Egyptian history. Starting especially in the late period, you get a lot of these bronze–little small bronze statues of Isis holding Horus in some way, on her lap usually. But it kind of evolves out of a history of mother goddesses in Egypt, and so we have, even from some of the earliest periods like the pyramids, we have images of goddesses suckling the king as her son and things like that. So, it is a constantly present cultural element in Egypt that sort of gets developed over time (with the addition), especially the popularity of the myth of Horus as a child specifically as opposed to an adult male king becomes more popular, and then you see these statues becoming extremely popular as donations to temples, specifically.
Kim: Awesome. So what influence does the foreign interactions have on the portrayal of Isis and Horus in the later periods of ancient Egypt?
Danielle: Good question as well. Starting in the Second Intermediate Period which is the period I study, there is a lot of influence especially from the Near East coming into Egypt. This comes along with a lot of religious aspects, so gods from all over the place wind up in Egypt, and they get, what’s called syncretized– essentially smushed, technical term, together with Egyptian gods. So they kind of basically go like “oh, you have a god of storms and chaos, so do we. It’s obviously the same person.” Same god, that kind of thing. So, you get that happening a lot with female gods in particular as well because of course, you know, it’s pretty universal in the ancient world. Somebody’s gonna have a goddess of motherhood and birth and all that stuff. So, I think it gets more woven into the idea of Isis and Horus than having an obvious effect. I think the obvious effect comes when it gets exported from Egypt in later periods.
Kim: So, were there any different techniques introduced in the art styles and the cultural influences that we can see evolve throughout time in the later periods of Egypt?
Danielle: Even this, the way that they produce these metal statues that you guys are looking at, is originally potentially a foreign technology. So, the metal working in general is coming from outside of Egypt in much earlier periods, but they also bring in associated casting techniques– how they actually melt the metal and put them into molds and things to make this type of object; it’s foreign.
Kim: So, what identities did the ancient Egyptians derive and associate from the Isis and Horus icon?
Danielle: Sure. In this one you can talk about several different levels of society and their identities. So I already mentioned the king: he specifically gets associated with baby Horus, so he is like the living embodiment of Horus on Earth. The identity that he derives is basically demonstrating that he is a god and he’s being suckled by his goddess mother and things like that. In general, Isis was the mother goddess, right? So like anyone who wanted kids or whose kid was sick or anything like that was very invested in the Isis and Horus icon, which is why it is so popular as a temple dedication.
Kim: That’s so cool. Thank you. When the statue and the icon was exported out of Europe– excuse me, Egypt– into Europe or like other Near Eastern countries, what identities transferred? Were the identities the same or did it evolve into the culture itself?
Danielle: That’s a great question. So, it depends where it goes. In places where the concept of a divine king is already present, it kind of keeps that essence where Horus is identified with the child king. But in places like Greece, for example, where that is not necessarily something that is in their cultural tradition, they go more in the motherhood aspect. So, it is very adoptable,– adaptable, in both ways. Even when the Ptolemaic Dynasty starts in Egypt. So, these are Grecoo-Macedonian people who come after Alexander the Great, they adopt their cuckoo for Isis. And Cleopatra, a fame, actually paraded herself around Alexandria dressed as Isis and stuff like this. So, she is like really heavily responsible for the popularity of the Isis cult, especially abroad in Rome, because people sort of get this mixed up with, just in the same way that we have a little bit of Egyptomania today, the Romans had this as well. So, everything-Egypt was cool in Rome. And, so the Isis cult became very popular in places like Rome for that reason as well.
Alysa: That’s it for me.
Kim: I have no more questions. Do you have any closing remarks?
Danielle: No. Great project.
Kim and Alysa:Thank you.
Alysa: So as time continues from the Late Period, both figures –Isis and Horus– came to embody separate things. Isis was said to be a physical manifestation of divine motherhood with her life nurturing capabilities while Horus became closely associated with the pharaoh who believed himself to be a divine heir. SO it makes sense that the pharaoh would come to physically embody the young figure Horus. And together, these two figures made the statue an iconic religious piece throughout Ancient Egyptian households of the Late Dynastic Period.5
Jasmine: Exactly! And in addition to that, I remember reading an article on the statue of Isis and Horus on the Metropolitan Museum of Art website that mentioned that these types of statuettes were usually dedicated not just to Isis cults, but seemingly to many temples and shrines that were built for people to worship Osiris and his child god Horus.
Although many of the cultures that followed the pharaonic era set the statue of Isis and Horus as their model and depicted it in unique and cool ways, after digging up in the older pharaonic kingdoms, we found an older statue portraying the same theme of mother and child from the Old Kingdom!6
Alysa: So that would mean that this statue was prior to the time of the Isis and Horus statuette from the Late Dynastic Period!
Jasmine: To be specific, the statue actually belonged to King Pepi II and his mother, queen Ankhesenpepi I.
Mary: laughing Sounds like a mouthful.
Jasmine: Yeah! laughing Mary, do you know anything about King Pepi II’s reign?
Mary: Well it seems that he reigned for 90 years! He must’ve been ancient!(ba dum tss) But that’s also because he became king at age 6!
Jasmine: Oh my god! Wow! I didn’t know he was THAT young. Now that I am thinking about it, he is actually significantly smaller than his mother in the statue, and that’s probably because the sculptor wanted to highlight the fact that he reigned at such a young age.
We also see the theme of the motherly support making a second appearance here, where Pepi’s right hand is firmly closed while his left-hand rests on his mother’s hand as her left hand supports his back.
Kim: Wait, hold up. Is that a hole in the queen’s forehead? Excuse me?
Jasmine: Oh yeah about that, Egyptologists actually think this hole indicates that an object of another material was inserted in the statue. Ankhesenpepi I’s head is covered by the vulture headdress, which we have seen before in statues of the goddesses and queens who are mothers, like in the statue of Isis and Horus. Therefore, it’s probably safe to assume that the missing object could have been the head of the vulture.7
Kim: Wow I wonder what the object was made out of if it was taken so easily?
Mary: Oh my god! Do you think it was some form of rare jewelry that got stolen?
Jasmine: Before we get too busy looking into this scandal, let’s look into more icons that made an appearance after the pharaonic era!
Section 4: Coptic Representations of the Image of Mother and Child (14:22) Kim: Ancient Egyptian religion and Christianity are very closely related. There is a holy trinity which in Christianity is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and in ancient Egyptian religion it was Ptah, Sokaris, and Osiris in the Old Kingdom and Amun, Re, and Ptah in the New Kingdom. Osiris, Isis and Horus can be considered a trinity as well. The similarities don’t stop there. All living things and nature have a place in the universe, the soul is immortal, and an eternal afterlife that is determined by one’s behavior on Earth are all shared between the two.8 I hope that paints a clear connection between the two religions.
Mary: Coptic hymns play quietly in the background The Coptic era of Egypt was also called the Christian era of Egypt. It started from around the Roman Egyptian or Byzantine Egyptian era or basically the third century. It lasted approximately to the 9th century when the majority of the Egyptian population was Christian. This change was due to emperor Constantine who declared Christianity the legal religion of Egypt in 313 CE. Nowadays, we refer to Christian Egyptians as Copts. Despite the Muslim conquest of Egypt in the 7th century and the conversion of many Copts to Islam, Coptic Christianity was still very relevant. In fact, to this day, there are Copts living in Egypt. They have preserved their roots and their culture within the religious context of their churches. They preserved the Coptic language which was the ancient Egyptian language with Greek alphabet and a couple of Demotic signs. It is still read by the clergy of the Coptic church today. They also preserved Coptic art which can be seen in icons all over the church.9
hymns fade out
Alysa: So how did this image of the mother and child differ as it was adopted in Coptic Christianity? Did the image become completely different in meaning? How does the style of the art impact its audience through this Coptic lens?
Mary: Okay well unlike the Egyptian art style that focuses on showing every part of a person’s body, Coptic iconography doesn’t aim to paint features of the person’s body but its soul.
However, both art styles are similar in the sense that there is this absence of naturalism and emotion because their pictures and icons don’t represent the world of the flesh. Instead of focusing on bodily accents like Renaissance art, sensory body parts such as the nose and ears, take a back seat in Coptic art. car sounds
As we will see in later depictions of the Madonna Lactans (the European depictions of the Virgin during the Renaissance) the breast is emphasized and even barren like in the Egyptian portrayal of Isis. The Coptic style just conceals all nudity and focuses more on the divinity of the Virgin rather than her maternity.10
Jasmine: I think the main reason the Coptic style ensures that the icons are deprived of nudity is because they are mainly found in churches in Egypt and around many Christian communities in the Middle East that don’t normally like to show nudity in their art. This is an example of where we see how much the culture and location of the image can influence its artistic style.
Alysa: Some might say the adoption of this Isis and Horus image to Mary and Jesus can be seen as a power play. In a short interview with Egyptologist and PhD student Nicholas Brown he stated that this change in iconography suggests a colonial idea of power dynamics with the culture that adopts this image. Similarly, throughout the quarter we have been talking about this idea of Orientalism which I believe to be the case here. Orientalism is defined as the West’s patronizing representations of the eastern countries settled in the areas of Asia, North Africa, and the Middle East. Applying this concept of Orientalism to Egyptian art, Nicholas Brown noticed that the cultures or religions that have adopted/altered/appropriated the icon or whatever you want to call it, have turned an essentially pagan image into an image that fits the agenda of their religion. But can you expand more on the different aspects that is focused in on for Coptic art?
Mary: Well, the image of mother and child was brought from Egypt to the West and Byzantium through early Christian art. With time, the figures of both the Virgin and the child began to have a cold solemnity and an emphasized asceticism. Asceticism is a complicated word for just describing a way of life where a person practices abstinence from any sensual pleasures to attain a spiritual goal. These aspects manifested themselves in details such as the reduction of the breast to the utmost degree possible.11
surprise music
Here is hint #2: the Phoenician alphabet was developed there.12
exit surprise music
Jasmine: So after doing some research, Many images of Saint Mary and Jesus can be found today in Masr el Adeema , or Old Cairo, which is a region located on the East valley of the Nile, across from Giza where the pyramids are found. I was reading a book on Coptic iconography called Coptic Icons Volume II by Nabil Atalla that had images of mother and child icons from Coptic churches and I found that Al-Damshiria church in Old Cairo is the most diverse Coptic church in Egypt due to its inclusion of images of Saint Mary and Jesus that represent different influences.
For example, the church contains images that represent the Nubian style, where the mother and child are given darker features and the background behind them is decorated with authentic Nubian patterns. Nubian patterns and decorations usually include colorful geometric figures, mainly triangles and straight lines presented in a very simple way.
Another image found in that church represents the Persian style, with a very simple and plain background, and the mother and child are being portrayed in a slight angle.
Finally, the last image represents the Egyptian style, with its excessive use of gold for the clothing of both the mother and child, as well as portraying the frontal image of Jesus. Placing all those multiforms of the image of mother and child in one church suggests that Al-Damshiria Church’s main message behind these images is that regardless of where the image comes from or the ethnicity of its artist, they all serve the same purpose of honoring Saint Mary and Jesus. Each image on its own is simply a figure or an image that reflects the same idea by a different culture, but when this idea is adopted by various groups with different cultural, religious, and social views, it can be depicted differently to reflect the values that the culture holds, and thus, send a subtle message to the viewer that enables him or her to figure out the origin of the image and maybe even be able to relate it back to its ancient Egyptian multiform!13
Mary: Just as the image of the Virgin and Jesus is a multiform of the statue of Isis and Horus, many other cultures have adopted the image of the Virgin and Jesus and created their own multiforms of it as well you know. The basis of the image, a mother and her child, is just you know uh a plain iconography type that– with cultural, social, and religious influences– can be depicted differently with different highlighted aspects such as maternity, virginity, familiality, etc. Despite all of this, these aspects are all present in each different depiction of the image. To help us add onto the Coptic depiction of mother and child, we brought a special guest.
Kim: Graciously joining us today is Father Isaac. Mary and Jasmine take it away!
Section 5: Interview with Father Isaac on Coptic iconography (21:31) Father Isaac: My name is father Isaac Androus, I am a priest in Saint Peter and Saint Paul Coptic Orthodox Church located in Santa Monica in the diocese of Los Angeles. I was ordained in year 2004.
Mary: Could you describe the colors and the facial expressions of the icons like Mary and Jesus?
Father Isaac: I see, okay I am not an expert in Coptic iconography, but I can answer from my kind of general knowledge as a priest. Coptic iconography is part of the Coptic art. In our church there is three main branches of the Coptic art. There is hymnology, the way we sing and that’s in itself a sort of doctrine and teaching because we include in the process of singing all the faith and the dogma and the belief system that we have. The other part is the architecture, the way we build churches and how they reflect our faith, like for instance, in a typical Coptic church you have three doors. One in the West, one in the North, and one in the South, and they represent the Holy Trinity and how we enter from each door. So there are three areas of Coptic art, which are hymnology, and then the second one is architecture, and then the last one is iconography. So in Coptic icons, the whole idea is not that the painting, the idea is more of doctrine, teaching. That’s why if you notice the painting is not like– like a live painting, it’s not like when you paint a portrait of someone — they’re not really codes but they are standards. For instance, when you draw the picture of the Virgin Mary and the Lord Jesus, we usually put the Virgin Mary on the right hand of the Lord Jesus. You never find any Coptic icon with the Virgin Mary on the left hand because in Psalm 45 it says “the queen sits at the right hand of the king”.14
Also, in Coptic iconography, it’s always 2D, there is no third dimension, it’s only two dimensions. In Coptic iconography, the sky is colored in gold, not in blue. There are other color codes, for instance, the green in iconography represents evil. That’s why if you look at any icon that has Judas, they put him in green, not like the saints and the Lord Jesus. We usually use blue, white, and red for the Coptic saints. But green has a kind of a bad feel in the Coptic icon. Also in the Coptic icon we don’t draw– when we draw someone or when we write, we put face to face for the holy men. Evil is done — what is it called —
Mary: Profile?
Father Isaac: — profile, not face to face, so you don’t see the two eyes of someone that like Judas or anything. For the icon of the Virgin Mary you notice there is stars in her clothes, three stars usually. They represent her ever virginity. She is virgin before conceiving Christ, and while when she gave birth to Christ, and after, she continues to be a virgin. In our church we believe in the ever virginity of Saint Mary and we portray that in the icon. In the Coptic icon also when you look at the face, you don’t find all the parts of the face in equal size, the eyes – for instance, usually the eyes and the mouth, usually the eyes is a little smaller than the mouth, you know? But in Coptic iconography, it’s the opposite, the eyes are bigger than the mouth, and you know why that is? Because it represents wisdom. The eyes mean that those holy men and women of God have spiritual insight. The eye represents insight, and the mouth being small represents wisdom and not being talkative.
Jasmine: How do you think the congregation views the icon of Mary and Jesus and how are they used in prayers?
Father Isaac: Icons are used as part of prayers, so we look up to the icon and then — this is a natural spiritual feel, it is not like something written in the books of dogma. When they look at the picture, the icon of Saint Mary, they start talking to her naturally as someone talking to their mother. So we do not worship the icon, and we do not believe the icon is an idol or anything like that, absolutely, because sometimes we are accused of that because we give incense to the icon, and we consecrate and kiss the icon, no, the whole idea is we feel the presence of the saint through the icon, but the presence itself is a spiritual presence with us, does that make sense? So the icon itself is consecrated with Myron15 and everything to be blessed, but it’s not as we sometimes are thought of as, worshiping the icon, no, the icon represents the presence of the saint with us, that’s why they face us when we walk into the church. You face the East, but the icons of the iconostasis16 face the West. Why do they face the West? To make you feel they are with you. So we talk to the Virgin Mary and say we love you, pray for us, in a very natural flow actually. We also light candles before the icons.
Jasmine: Thank you so much for meeting with us, that was very insightful and we learned a lot about Coptic art! Thank you for having us here.
Father Isaac: Sure, absolutely.
Section 6: Byzantine Representation of the Image of Mother and Child (27:31) Alysa: There is a defined link between Isis and the Virgin Mary in that it has been said that the image of Isis nursing Horus is a “prototype” of the image of the Virgin Mary and child.17 The significance in this lies in the fact that this icon is one of the most recurring subjects of Egyptian art. Further analysis on the differences between these images as we closely look at the placement of the child from Horus between Isis’ legs to Jesus being held in the arms of the Virgin Mary in almost all catholic and Christian depictions of mother and child. Clearly, this shift in the child’s placement is representative of the child’s transition from being merely a youth to reverting back to an innocent baby in the eyes of Catholicism and Christianity. By the advent of Renaissance art and in light of Catholicism and Christianity, this was the most widely accepted representation of a child in their eyes.
Mary: Yeah like I said before, the iconography of Virgin Mary, during the Byzantine Empire, emphasized her virginity and holiness rather than her motherhood. The different variations in the way the mother or virgin is presented with her relationship to the child taken into account differs throughout different cultures.
Jasmine: That’s actually really cool that the artists chose to focus on one specific element for Saint Mary during the Byzantine era. Most of the other images I was looking at focused on highlighting Jesus as the center of the image. Some of those images I saw at the Getty Center in Los Angeles last week when I visited and they were super cool! One common element that I realized across a couple of the European images of mother and child was that they often portray the donors of the icon who ~ in common terms ~ sponsor the artist to draw the image, and in return the artist incorporates them into the picture, which I thought was a really cool way of advertising for the royalties during that time! The picture that stood out to me the most was the image of The Madonna and Child with Two Donors by Lorenzo Lotto, where the donors are in profile view kneeling alongside the Virgin and Jesus, with Jesus being the closest to the center of the image like in most European icons.18
Mary: Well, there definitely have been transitions. For example, the European Madonna was progressively depicted as more human and the maternal affection became the main characteristic of her representation with Christ. But eventually, as the Roman Catholic Church came in conflict with the Eastern Orthodox Church, Renaissance artists in Northern Europe were exposed to Byzantine pictorial art. Some images depicted the Virgin detachedly holding baby Jesus, who often seems to be a small boy rather than a helpless baby. baby sounds These images function to underline her virginity over her maternity and, to some extent, undervalue the role that she played in Jesus’s life. Whereas, the Madonna is depicted with one breast exposed, breastfeeding baby Jesus and emphasizing her maternal function.19
Section 7: Renaissance/ European Representation of the Image of Mother and Child (30:20) Alysa: As we have seen through the Coptic lens, the image of Isis and Horus developed to fit a more maternal appearance along with her holiness making the overarching motivation behind the change as a yearn for new artistic style and devoutness in religion. So let’s see how this icon develops during the wake of the Renaissance and Bronze Age. Could there be a clear motive behind the various representations?
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Alysa: The Renaissance was a time of academic, artistic, and cultural rebirth covering a period from the Middle Ages– roughly 14th century– to modernity — about 18th century. Centered in mostly Europe, the Renaissance’s influence stretched to the West and East European countries. One of the most prominent areas of the Renaissance were its grandiose art pieces — including the Madonna and child. Some of you may wonder what is the difference between the Virgin Mary and Madonna? There is none! Ta-da! noise They are one in the same, Madonna is just a medieval Italian translation of “my lady.”
Mary: With the Madonna, there have been many multiforms throughout different regions in Europe and different times. The focus of each icon is different because the purpose behind it varied and different aspects of it were emphasized. Early icons were revered and believed to have been capable of performing miracles; whereas, later depictions of Mary served as a reminder of biblical events.
Alysa: It is precisely in this light, that we focus heavily on the minor details of the various renditions of the Madonna and child and how their development came due to the respective cultures and societies it was adapted into. In the early years of the Renaissance and Bronze Age, specifically the early to mid 15th century, the various images of the Virgin Mary and child are almost always recognizable and connected to each other iconographically. I think we can agree that if someone were to show us a picture or some sort of representation of the Virgin Mary or Golden Madonna holding a child, most people would immediately know who was in the image and it’s context. Similarly, as stated by PhD student Nicholas Brown, Ancient Egyptian art was created for an illiterate audience to understand, with Isis and Horus statuette ancient Egyptians would have recognized these icons almost immediately, so it’s the same with the Virgin Mary and Jesus icon. Of course, there are small differences in the representations of the Virgin Mary and child whether it be their stances, the gaze of their faces, or their hand gestures whatever it may be, these differences can be attributed to regional differences.
Jasmine: In Italy, the famous Michelangelo depicted the well-known biblical event of Mary carrying the body of Jesus after his crucifixion, death, and removal from the cross, but before he was placed in the tomb, in his statue La Pieta. This was actually one of the biggest key events in the Virgin’s life, and it later became known as one of the Seven Sorrows of Mary, which is a Catholic devotional prayer. So it’s probably safe to assume that the intended audience for this statue was the Catholic European church.20
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Mary: Here is hint #3: It is one of the oldest continuously inhabited towns in the world.21
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Jasmine: Another thing that was special about La Pieta is its structure, in that it is considered a multi-figured statue, which was considered very rare during the Renaissance era, although it was common for mother and child statues to be multi-figured. To be specific, this statue of mother and child is considered to be one of the first multi-figured statues during the era and was greatly admired by other Renaissance artists, like Leonardo.
Kim: Was there something kinda weird about the ratios of La Pieta?
Jasmine: That’s actually a question that puzzled a lot of artists when the statue was first released, and I believe the best explanation to it was that Michelangelo chose to depict Mary much bigger than Jesus in order to show the great support she provided him during his journey to the cross. When we compare this with the mother and child statues from the pharaonic era, we see that the mother is also often depicted bigger than her child, except her child is often a baby in those statues, but the different ratios still convey the same message to the audience of the mother providing support to her son.
Kim: Spanish-Italian artist Jusepe de Ribera’s Madonna with Child and Saint Bruno focuses on Mary’s holiness. There was a lot of debate up until the 14th century over whether Mary’s own birth was free of all sin and immaculate or not. Saint Bruno wrote about the Immaculate Conception and that was why in the 17th century Ribera chose to include Saint Bruno alongside the Immaculate Conception portrayal of Madonna and Child. This solidified the Church’s intention during Catholic Reformation and the iconography associated with the Immaculate Conception.22 This image could be taken as an example of how the mother and child icon has been repurposed and utilized to push different agendas, in this case the Catholic Church’s.
Kim: Furthermore, we can follow the evolution of the relationship between Mary and Child and the audience with the Madonna of Humility which first appeared mid-1300s in early Italian paintings and persisted for the next century. Catholicism was moving away from the impersonal cult figure and focusing more on the layman. In order to be more humanized Jacopo di Cione shifted Mary from an elevated position to one that was closer to the ground. The child reaches for her breast but also glances outward to draw the audience in. He is wearing a protection amulet made of coral just like all the other Italian kids at the time.23 Horus was also known to wear an amulet as well…Coincidence? I think not! Some artists like Carlo da Camerino chose to keep the regal “Queen of Heaven”, “Woman of the Apocalypse” Mary from the Middle Ages but she was still sitting down very much as a peasant would, accentuating her duality.24 This duality reminds me of Cleopatra’s reign when she portrayed herself as Isis breastfeeding to assert her power especially when she was in a relationship with Mark Antony.25 Nonetheless, this Madonna of Humility came to be the symbol of maternal tenderness in that time. Later though as seen in Pietro Perugino and Albrecht Durer’s renditions, the Madonna is still seated but the meaning of her being close to the Earth has changed. She was now associated with the fertile earth in less than 100 years of Di Cione’s piece.26 Art is incredibly subjective and individualistic so it really can be what you make of it. In this context, the Catholic Church was pushing to be more #relatable to maintain a strong following.
Jasmine: Oh my god! I didn’t know those paintings were all tied together, that’s super cool Kim!
Kim: Aww, thank you.
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Mary: Here’s Hint #4: The ruins today consist of the Crusader fortifications and gate; a Roman colonnade and small theatre; Phoenician ramparts, three major temples, and a necropolis; and remains of Neolithic dwellings. This place was designated a UNESCO World Heritage site in 1984.27
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Jasmine: Going back to comparing the levels of nudity portrayed in each image, Mary, do you know what the Renaissance artists were trying to depict when portraying the Madonna with a certain level of nudity?
Mary: Between these eastern and western cultures, the depictions of Mary contained drastic differences. Arguments about her nudity rose as some claimed that it highlights the Virgin’s similarities to other women and that nudity in religious artwork has potential in evoking subconscious erotic associations. The nudity was justified through this lens of Naturalism which focused more on the style of art. Since it followed an artistic movement, it lost some of its religious value as a result. Another reason for her nudity was due to the fact that the aim of Renaissance painters was to depict a virtuous lady and a wet nurse with the aspects of her divinity being overlooked. The concept of the wet nurse was the focus of the social hierarchy. In older times, there was a hierarchy within the ranks of the balie, or the wet nurses, depending on who they worked for. The Virgin’s gamurra or robe was fashioned differently to resemble those found on the balie’s gowns to facilitate nursing with the minimum amount of undress. With such a focus on traditional and social practices, the image of the lactating Virgin lost a lot of its religious implications.28
Kim: This aversion to nursing wasn’t exclusive to Europe. The Tosefta, which is Jewish Oral Law in the 2nd century Roman Palestine, dictated that if anyone found a ring with an image of a breastfeeding mother it was to be thrown in the Dead Sea.29
Mary: Well that doesn’t help us if all that evidence is at the bottom of the sea. I wonder where we can find other images we haven’t talked about yet.
Section 8: Modern Representation of the Image of Mother and Child (39:04) Alysa: Luckily, we have the UCLA Special Collections RIGHT HERE as a valuable database to uncover some more pictures!
Kim: #NotSpon but wish it was.
Jasmine: Here we have a picture from 1904 of an Egyptian mother from John Muir’s Egyptian Views Brought Home which was a photographic collection of daily activities in Egypt.
Kim: In this photo, the mother is angled slightly off to her left and is seated with her baby sleeping on her lap, facing her. She wears a beautiful, yet simple abaya, which is a long tunic dress, a long shawl covering her head and is adorned with gold, dangling earrings and two pearl necklaces. On her wrists, she wears simple wrap bracelets. Her hands are strong, firm and protective, yet still delicate and gentle when cradling her baby.
Jasmine: The way the woman is dressed reminds me of how people in Upper Egypt dress nowadays in the region Egyptians refer to as “Saeed Egypt”. Her outfit, or her saaeedy abaya, is very popular among older women and farmers’ wives. They mainly wear them when they go from the villages to the city.
Mary: The fact that Muir thought to photograph a woman sitting there with her child in her arms to encapsulate the entirety of Egyptian views shows how important the mother and child type is to the western photographer and the Egyptian culture.
Alysa: Yeah I agree. The specific mother and child image we see here has significance that is beyond the limits of a single culture — this image speaks volumes about the human experience. Here the mother has a duality in her posture; she delicately holds her child as is inherent of all mother’s, but there is a certain power in her stance and gaze that brings an aspect of divinity to her role.30 She protects and nurtures, she’s strong yet gentle, she’s dauntless and humble. This is the essence of the mother and child that has allowed the continuance of the image through the times.
Jasmine: Wow this was such a cool example! Following along with our timeline, the most recent and impactful photographs I found that portray a mother with her child were actually taken in the 20th Century during the Great Depression. One of those photographs was taken by Dorothea Lange in 1936 after she has taken the job of Resettlement Administration, which was a New Deal agency placed to help impoverished families relocate. According to Lange, the woman she took the picture of was surrounded by 7 children inside a tent, but she focused the image on the mother and only 3 of her children. 31
Kim: Was there a specific reason why the picture didn’t include everyone?
Jasmine: I think Dorothea Lange was mainly trying to portray the struggles the mother was going through, and in the moment she was surrounded only by 3 children that Dorothea included in the picture. In fact, the conditions were very harsh for families who had a lot of children during that time because they were basically living in the streets for awhile. The woman in the picture, Florence Thompson, was only 32, but the image portrays her as much older than that, and that might be due to the fact that the image is displayed in black and white. Unlike the previous images that we have been looking at, the woman and her child are not glorified or highlighted as powerful people in any way. In fact, the woman looks very distressed and 2 of her children are looking away from the camera and leaning their heads on her, while her other child is asleep in her arms. Similar to the previous images; however, the position of the mother in the center of this image does indicate that she was their main source of support, regardless of the fact that she is stressed and worried about their current situation.
Alysa: You could say this picture has a commonality with the figures Isis and the Madonna in that these three are representations of a mother in her most intimate form. She is purposely placed in a way in which she is tending to her child — or children in this case– emphasizing her role as nurturer and protector of life. This and similar images evoke an intense emotional appeal from its audience by the use of both divine and human features.32
Jasmine: I think that’s exactly what Dorothea was trying to portray. This photograph later became known as the Migrant Mother, but unfortunately it is not available for display as of today, but I believe it travels around museums in the United States for art shows!
Kim: The final example is one I see everyday courtesy of my roommate Sofia McConnell.
Section 9: Interview with Sofia on Modern Images of Mother and Child (43:14) Sofia: Um, hi. My name is Sofia. I am an Art major at UCLA. Yes.
Kim: Love it. So, when did you first come across this icon?
Sofia: I guess, because I didn’t grow up with any kind of organized religion in my household, like the Mother and Child image was really introduced to me through a family friend who’s an artist. She takes like historically significant like figures or scenes and recreates them into these paintings that she does and drawings that are, um, a little bit, um, like morbid or like strange and dark. So, a lot of like my first introductions as a child to a lot of like historically significant, um, symbols and like visuals were through her art. This one specific of, like the technically, the Mother and Child, was on the door of my mom’s bedroom when I was a young kid. So, and I would always like see it there. It was like a black ink drawing.
Kim: Nice. This icon obviously means a lot to you. You have it tattooed on your arm, it’s beautiful. So, what does it mean to you?
Sofia: Well, I guess it has like significance just as being kind of like consistent in my life as that image on the wall and being on my mom’s bedroom. But, after growing up, uh, the significance changed because of my experiences and my identity. And to me it’s more of like kind of like parent or like caretaker or like mentor, um, and then like child. And then the tattoo itself is like of that ink drawing but very specifically like freaky parent and like baby.
Kim: [laughs] Yes.
Sofia: But, uh, I wanna, I wanna foster kids and I want to work in outreach and like I kinda want to get a Master’s in Social Work . So, I kinda see myself in it. Um, yeah.
Kim: That’s beautiful. Thank you for taking time with us today, Sofia. We really appreciate it.
Sofia: Oh yeah, no problem. Thank you for asking.
Section 10: Conclusion (45:19) Kim: Overall, with its origin placed in the times of Pharaonic Egypt, the mother and child image alone stands as a simple illustration but when it becomes adopted into societies with defined religious and cultural beliefs, the meaning of the iconography thus transforms into the biases of the viewer. Beauty or should I say meaning is in the eye of the beholder. The Mother and Child icon has been used across time from Pharaonic Egypt to modern times to declare powerful messages. The icon has been used to establish the power of one’s kingship and to elicit raw emotions to push the audience to feel a certain way whether it be about organized religion or pushing for the rejection of the nudity of nursing.
Jasmine: Exactly! And although the time periods between the images we discussed were very long, we still saw the common element of the mother providing care and support for her child, which serves to greatly highlight the mother in those images.
Mary: surprise music Thank you for staying tuned this entire episode. Earlier we asked you all a question, “where did Isis find the body of Osiris?” Well… do you have your answer? I know we do! Drumroll please drumroll Isis found the body of Osiris in Byblos! Byblos is on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, about 20 miles north of modern day Beirut, Lebanon. Would definitely love to visit there someday. Thank you all for tuning in today!
Kim: A very special thank you to Courtney Jacobs for helping us with UCLA’s Special Collections, Simon Lee for teaching us how to navigate UCLA’s libraries,
Mary: Deidre Whitmore for tech help and Tom Garbelotti from HumTech
Jasmine: Dani Candelora, Nicholas Brown
Alysa: Sofia McConnell and Father Isaac for talking with us.
Kim: Thank you again for spending time with us today! Don’t go looking for us because we won’t be here! Unless of course you want to hit that repeat button, then you are welcome back anytime. Check out all the other awesome episodes too! Peace out guys, gals and non-binary pals!
Mary: That’s all, folks!
Alysa: See you on the flipside!
Jasmine: LOL remember that time we recorded for like 20 minutes without actually pressing the record button, haha good times.
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AmishRob. Recording of two consecutive car beeps. WAV file, created 2 April, 2018. https://freesound.org/people/AmishRob/sounds/423990/.
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Klankbeeld. Recording of Ave Regina Caelorum choral. WAV file, created 12 Dec. 2013. https://freesound.org/people/klankbeeld/sounds/210514/.
Petroc_Elbaseet. “Khen Oushot with Ibrahim Ayad at St Mark Church Montreal.” Created 2015. https://soundcloud.com/search?q=khen%20oushot%20with%20ibrahim
Plasterbrain. Recording of Ta-da! In F major. WAV file, created 11 July, 2017. https://freesound.org/people/plasterbrain/sounds/397354/.
Robinhood76. “Game and Media Dings.” WAV file, created 15 July 2015. https://freesound.org/people/Robinhood76/sounds/350352/.
Waveplay_old. Recording of soft car screech. WAV file, created 14 April, 2014. https://freesound.org/s/233558/.
Zut50. Recording of group of people cheering yay. WAV file, created 4 Aug. 2012. https://freesound.org/people/zut50/sounds/162395/.
1 Susanna, Thomas. “A Saite Figure of Isis in the Petrie Museum.” The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, vol. 85, 1999, 232–235. JSTOR , www.jstor.org/stable/3822442./ 2 Plutarch, Isis and Osiris. 3 Tyldesley, Joyce. “Isis.” Encyclopædia Britannica , Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 29 Mar. 2019, www.britannica.com/topic/Isis-Egyptian-goddess. 4 The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. “Byblos.” Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 2 Feb. 2007, www.britannica.com/place/Byblos. 5 Rosenau, Helen. “The Prototype of the Virgin and Child in the Book of Kells.” The Burlington Magazine for Connoisseurs, vol. 83, no. 486, 1943, 228–231. JSTOR , www.jstor.org/stable/868708. 6 “Isis and Horus, 664–30 B.C.” Metmuseum.org, 2019, www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545969. 7 Kinnaer, Jacques. “The Ancient Egypt Site.” Pepi II and His Mother | The Ancient Egypt Site , 14 May 2014, www.ancient-egypt.org/history/old-kingdom/6th-dynasty/pepi-ii/statuary-of-pepi-ii/pepi-i i-and-his-mother.html. 8 Franklin, J. Jeffrey. Spirit Matters: Occult Beliefs, Alternative Religions, and the Crisis of Faith in Victorian Britain. Cornell University Press, 2018. 9 Sauter, Megan. “What Is Coptic and Who Were the Copts in Ancient Egypt?” Biblical Archaeology Society, 12 Apr. 2019,
www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-near-eastern-world/what-is-c optic-and-who-were-the-copts-in-ancient-egypt/. 10 Lasareff, Victor. “Studies in the Iconography of the Virgin.” The Art Bulletin, vol. 20, no. 1, 1938, 26–65. JSTOR , www.jstor.org/stable/3046561. 11 Lasareff, 1938. 12 The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Byblos.” 13 Atalla, Nabil. Selim. Coptic Icons. Lehnert & Landrock, 1998. 14 From the “Book of Psalms” in the Bible, written by David the Prophet. 15 Holy Myron is the oil with the highest level of sanctification in the Coptic Orthodox church. It is used to sanctify and consecrate to god the object or person that is being anointed 16 A screen bearing the icons that is very common in Orthodox churches. It separates the sanctuary from the nave and the chorus. 17 Rosenau, Helen. “The Prototype of the Virgin and Child in the Book of Kells.” The Burlington Magazine for Connoisseurs, vol. 83, no. 486, 1943, 228–231. JSTOR , www.jstor.org/stable/868708. 18 The Madonna and Child with Two Donors by Lorenzo Lotto, The Getty Center. 19 Puica, Ilie. “Biblical Elements in Coptic Icon.” European Journal of Science and Theology, vol. 2, no. 2, 20 Apr. 2006, 37–50. 20 ItalianRenaissance.org, “Michelangelo’s Pieta,” in ItalianRenaissance.org, July 23, 2012, http://www.italianrenaissance.org/michelangelos-pieta/. 21 The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Byblos.” 22 Perkins, Cynthia O. and James Hogg. A Study of the Iconography of Jusepe De Ribera’s Madonna with Child and Saint Bruno. Vol. 156, Institut für Anglistik Und Amerikanistik, Universität Salzburg, 1999. 23 Hecht, article on Renaissance pieces. 24 Ulmer, Rivka. Egyptian Cultural Icons in Midrash. W. De Gruyter, 2009. 25 Ulmer, 2009. 26 Hecht, article on Renaissance pieces 27 The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Byblos.” 28 Holmes, Megan. “Disrobing the Virgin: The Madonna Lactans in Fifteenth Century Florentine Art,” in Picturing Women in Renaissance and Baroque Italy, eds. S. Matthews Grieco and G. Johnson, Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, 1997, 167-195. 29 Ulmer, 2009. 30 Muir, John. Egyptian views brought home by John Muir. c1904. Photograph. UCLA Library Special Collections. 31 Phelan, Ben. “The Story of the ‘Migrant Mother.’” PBS , Public Broadcasting Service, 14 Apr. 2014, www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/stories/articles/2014/4/14/migrant-mother-dorothea-lange/. 32 Lasareff, Victor. “Studies in the Iconography of the Virgin.” The Art Bulletin, vol. 20, no. 1, 1938, 26–65. JSTOR , www.jstor.org/stable/3046561 .
How much do you think you know about mummies? Do you think they are tasty? Ooo yummy mummy wink wink? Or scary? Or a conspiracy theory made up by the government? This podcast busts open the biases people have accumulated about ancient Egypt by discussing changes in how people have perceived mummies throughout time.
Introduction: 0:00- 1:10 Diana: Hey everyone! This is Diana, accompanied by my colleagues Lysol, Albert, and Lily. And we are here to talk to you all about mummies!
You may be wondering who we are and how we are qualified to talk about this topic. The four of us are students at UCLA, currently taking a class on Egyptology, and have been invited to publicize information we have learned throughout the quarter with the intention of increasing public knowledge about Egypt.
Albert: Hi everyone, this is Albert. I’m here to talk to you about the purpose. The intent of this podcast is to evaluate how the perception of mummies has changed throughout time, including how information about mummies has been misappropriated, specifically, how a lot of cultural information is either outdated or has been altered in some way. We want to stress the importance of pointing out the biases in our sources, but also within our ways of thinking.
Special Collections: 1:11- 8:42 Albert: Hey guys, we’re here at UCLA’s Special Collections department to look at “Unwrap the Mummy” by David Hawcock and Ian Dicks.1 Basically, it’s a 4 foot long pop-up book with a bunch of cool facts. And we are going to quiz our friends with a “Do you know-?” style quiz to see if they have any misconceptions or misappropriations, or even stereotypes about Egypt.
So, Lysol and Diana. What do you think?
Lysol: I’m not sure how accurate this interpretation is. Right now it seems kind of cartoon-ish?
Diana: Yeah, I agree with you. Definitely.
Lysol: It’s hard to tell because we haven’t actually delved into any of the little text boxes and these illustrations. I would like to know how accurate this is because so far, the illustrations don’t seem to resemble the Ancient Egyptian tomb paintings.
Albert: Okay guys, let’s get started on our quiz. Lily, why don’t you start us off with the first question?
Lily: Alright. So, during the 1700s, what did many Europeans use mummies for?
Diana: They probably used them for their “medical” properties..?
Lily: Yes!
Albert: That’s actually very interesting. During the 1700s, at least in Europe, using them for medicinal purposes was not as popular anymore. And they began using them as fertilizer.
Lysol: Oh! Now, I didn’t know that! I actually didn’t, that’s interesting.
Albert: Yeah! Okay, let’s do question number two. Why was the Eye of Horus painted on the side of the coffin. I’m looking at you, Lysol. That’s your part!
Lysol: I have no idea! Maybe because it was meant to see the true identity of the mummy? Right?
Lily: That’s pretty close.
Albert: Pretty close!
Lily: But it’s so the mummies can see outside of the coffin.
Lysol: Oh, that’s interesting!
Diana: That’s crazy!
Lily: Okay, next question! Name some of the steps that are involved in the mummification process.
Lysol: (Talking to Diana.) I’ll do two, and you have to do the rest! [Laughs.]
Okay, the first would be to wash the body, right? And cleanse the body. And then they would have to treat it with the natron salt.
Diana: And then, I guess, they would have to get out all of the insides? Including the brain. And then they would probably finish up by wrapping the mummy with the..–
Lysol: Linen. With the linen.
Diana: Linen. Yes!
Albert: Okay, so there’s actually quite a few steps to the process, so let’s look at the book to see the answers. So, it says: first, to make a mummy the brain was first scooped out through the nose with a brain hook.
Lily: Then, the internal organs were removed through a cut in the side of the body.
Albert: The body was covered and in natron, a salty substance, and left for forty days to dry out. You got it!
Lily: When the body was embalmed, or dried, it looked limp and lifeless.
Albert: So, the body was packed with sawdust to make it look more life-like.
Lily: The body was then bathed in wine and spices, wrapped in linen bandages, and left for thirty days.
Albert: A life-like mask was placed over the mummies face.
Lily: Finally, the mummy was returned to the relatives for burial.
Diana: Wow!
Lysol: I’m impressed! So, the use of this hook…what exactly-does it actually remove the entire brain from the mummy?! Is that what I’m getting from this?
Lily: No, it removes most of the brain and then they used a spoon to remove the pieces inside that are left.
[Diana and Lysol react]
Albert: Okay, last question everybody. [Asking Lily] Do you want to do this one?
Lily: No, you can do it!
Albert: Okay! Why was the Book of the Dead buried with the dead?
Lysol: Because they’re dead!
Lily: Good answer!
Albert: So then, like everything else, objects buried with the mummy have a purpose, and in this case it was to guide the dead to the afterlife. Now, we’re just going to have a look through the book.
Lysol: What’s under the wrappings of the head?
[Lily opening mummy book]
Lily: Alright then, there we go!
[Diana and Lysol react to seeing inside the book.]
Ects
Reactions?
Diana: Is that a skeleton?
Lysol: Yeah, I don’t know, for some reason I don’t picture mummies with the actual skeleton inside. It’s just–
Diana: Yeah, you know sometimes in movies they are portrayed as evil characters.
Albert: It’s interesting that you brought up movies, Diana. Do you have any misconceptions that might have led you to perceive mummies in a certain way?
Diana: Yeah, Albert, actually I’ve always loved the Mummy Saga and I feel like often in the movies mummies are portrayed in this evil way. So, I feel like that cultural misinterpretation has resulted in a lot of disrespect towards the mummies. I know a lot of children like to dress up for Halloween and they pick a mummy costume, and I’ve heard modern Egyptians find this disrespectful to their culture.
Albert: So basically, what you’re saying is that modern media has created bias within all age groups and particularly you’ve felt like its led people to become disrespectful towards the cultural aspects [of mummies].
Diana: Definitely, I feel like that’s the idea nowadays.
Lysol: I agree with you, Diana. From the research that I was doing on the origins of mummies and how it all started, definitely this new modern way of looking at mummies is way too different from what they intended it to be. These burials were usually very differentiated in the wealth of the mummy but at the end of the day, they were all intended for the purpose of helping these individuals succeed in the afterlife. And that seems to be left out in these Hollywood movies of mummies.
Albert: Okay, everybody thank you for joining us at Special Collections. As we wrap up, we just want you to think about the popular misconceptions and biases that we’ve been talking about and how it relates to our podcast’s theme!
Transition: Albert: Now let’s head over to the TA interview to continue our conversation about mummies.
TA Interview: 8:43- 21:00 *For images please see links below.
Lysol: Hi everyone, it’s Lysol here with my friends Diana and Albert. My colleagues will be working a little more behind the scenes for this segment, but they are very much here and you might hear their reactions in our audio. Today we also have the pleasure to have one more person with us! Jordan, would you like to introduce yourself?
Jordan: Thank you guys for having me today. So, I’m a third year PhD student here at UCLA in the Near Eastern Languages and Cultures Department, focusing on Egyptology. Right now I’m kind of in pre-dissertation stuff, but I’ll probably be doing that this summer. My research focuses on elite competition, evidenced through dress, so I do a lot of stuff through textiles. Looking at how the sociopolitical climate changed with fashion, and other stuff like this.
What else about me? Originally, I did my Bachelor’s in Philadelphia at Temple University, and then I got my Master’s from the University of Chicago. So I’ve been hopping my way across the country!
Lysol: Do you have a specific area or time period that you focus on as an Egyptologist?
Jordan: I’m kind of more focusing on Middle Kingdom through the end of the New Kingdom.
Lysol: Okay.
Jordan: Right now, because I’m trying to chart changes, you need to get a large expanse of time just to chart changes, you know?
Lysol: Right.
Jordan: So I keep it kind of broad, but not too broad. It has too keep me bounded somehow.
Lysol: Has pursuing it changed you as an individual?
Jordan: For sure!
Lysol: How?
Jordan: I mean, it’s a really tough process. So, it makes you very resilient, right? Because there’s a lot of setbacks along the way, it’s a hard process out of struggles. You don’t get into a lot of programs they’re very competitive, things like this. Long hours, not a lot of time off for like, fun. A lot of times you question yourself “Why am I doing this?” Putting myself through all this torture. But then, it’s you know, your passion, your interest.
Lysol: Exactly.
Jordan: It comes back to you.
Lysol: In the classroom we have talked about Orientalism, cultural relativism, among other topics, and it has definitely enlightened us significantly. We’re wondering if any of those have touched you in similar ways.
Jordan: Oh, for sure. I remember when I was an undergrad, I took a class on Orientalism, and I didn’t know anything about it back then. I remember I was like “Wow that’s interesting!” because I didn’t know that concept existed at all! I think everyone should know about it especially when you work on studying the past in cultures in non-western cultures. I think it’s important to know all the biases we have, and especially reading literature from scholars in the past, they are very biased.
I’m currently writing an article about how Orientalism affected- so there’s a bunch of depections and actual bodies of women who wear tattoos, there are figurines with tattoos in nudes. And all these excavators were like, these must be concubines, prostitutes, or something ridiculous. So my article is pushing back against this because they were biased, they had Victorian European views of how they viewed tattooing, how they viewed nudity. We should put this into the past and look at the actual evidence.
Lysol: Okay, so now we’ll move on to some questions about Ancient Egypt, if that’s okay.
Jordan: Sure.
Lysol: Our first question would be, if you have any more evidence/input on it about how the Ancient Egyptians used to bury their dead before the process of mummification began.
Jordan: So, before mummification, the Ancient Egyptians would’ve just buried the dead in a simple dug out tomb- a tomb or just a hole in the ground. The body perhaps wrapped in a piece of cloth, or in like elite matting. Something like this (points at picture), or just nothing, just placed in the ground, and then it would’ve naturally mummified by the dry air and sand. I pulled this one (points at picture), this one’s kind of in a fetal position with some grave goods around it.
Lysol: What type of materials would they be buried with?
Jordan: Ceramics or some pottery, maybe some basic jewelry. This guy looks like he has some weapons and hunting implements. He has sandals, these are from a later date though they were put in there by accident. But it’s so great, you know. Things that perhaps you’d want in the afterlife. And depending on how rich you are, you’d have more grave goods versus someone of lower status.
Lysol: Did, for example, statues have anything to do with the introduction of linens and resins into the process? We have read, I think it was Christina Riggs’ Unwrapping Ancient Egypt. She had mentioned something about statues, and we were just wondering what was the relevancy, like why did she mention them in her book?
Jordan: So, her book, it’s a great book, she was mainly focusing on the act of wrapping. And her argument was that basically by wrapping something, you’re imbuing it with something sacred. So the act of wrapping makes something sacred. So she was connecting that with something like mummifying a body, that by wrapping the body you’re making it something sacred to turn into an Osiris in the afterlife. And then they would also wrap statues, so all the statues that would be in the temples in the, you know, back in the holy-of-holies in the back of the temple, they would’ve every morning went through a ritual where the priest would bathe the statue and then clothe it. And then they would be wrapped like a mummy, and imbue it with this kind of sacred power.
And you can even see here, this is King Tut’s tomb, and all the stuff in his tomb is wrapped. But when archeologists find it, they unwrap it because they’re like, ‘ew a gross piece of linen, we want to see the gold underneath.’ But actually, everything would’ve been draped and wrapped, because an average person shouldn’t be seeing a god. It’s keeping this liminal space between the god and the observer. Even Tut’s sarcophagus was draped in like a shroud and stuff like this.
Lysol: Those are things we hadn’t heard of, actually.
Jordan: I think the linen being a marking off, a boundary almost, between the living and the dead, the sacred and the profane, these types of things. And making whatever it’s wrapping more sacred.
Lysol: So now that we’ve covered some basic information, we wanted to get to the purpose of our podcast. We’ve found that there are a lot of misconceptions incorporated in Egyptian culture through time. Would you be able to elaborate on that specifically about mummies?
Jordan: Sure, yeah. I think in the media we watch a lot of movies about mummies where they are shown as the monster rising from the dead. There’s a pharaoh’s curse that is coming to hold the people that opened the tomb and all this type of stuff is mystifying the Ancient Egyptian culture. But if you go back to why the Ancient Egyptian’s mummified their dead, it’s that they wanted to preserve their bodies for the afterlife because of their belief that you need the body to be preserved so your soul could find it in the afterlife. So, I think it just touches upon the fact of what we all want nowadays, a peaceful afterlife if you believe in that, and the best way to combat these sort of ideas from the media I think is doing things like these. Teaching undergrads, having classes, and getting involved with social media type stuff. To show how normal and everyday the Ancient Egyptians were, too. And making this more accessible to everyone, like you read an academic paper and it’s super wordy, as all these big words, and it’s super inaccessible to people [because] they use Egyptian language and words that no one else can read. It’s things like this that are more accessible to everyone, and kind of pushing back against T.V. shows with the ancient aliens-
Lysol: Sorry, would you say that there are any accuracies, though? In your time as an Egyptologist and how you can view these things, do you find that you can dissect them and perhaps find some truth in there?
Jordan: Well, I love all of the old Brendan Fraser mummy movies. Totally still very much enjoy them. I think they’re great. I remember watching them as a kid and that being part of why I was interested, so I think it’s important to get people interested. I very much encourage it. But then, you know, take that interest and then go to the library and find a book and learn more. Like, I have students all the time email me questions like, ‘I was watching The Mummy last night, is this real? Is this accurate?’ , and I’m more than happy to answer that question. Reach out to an expert or a book. I think there’s definitely a place for this stuff in the popular media, it gets people interested. So, I guess, you need a little bit of sensationalism to make it sexy. But then, take that interest and go look at scholarly sources and verify this stuff.
Lysol: And recent stuff?
Jordan: And recent stuff, yeah, don’t go look at those from the 1800s because they’ll be racist.
Lysol: So if you had one big takeaway from this conversation, or just any dialogue regarding Ancient Egypt, what would it be?
Jordan: I think my biggest piece of advice for doing any type of research on ancient history in general, and specifically for Ancient Egypt, is for doing what you guys are doing. You know, be inquisitive, interrogate the past, interrogate our sources. Be judgmental and critical, and don’t just take things as they are. Look at who was writing it, when, what culture they came from, what biases they have. All these types of things are super important, and we always need to be pushing back against these to actually get to the truth, to get at what the ancient people were actually thinking. And basing-or skewed by our current interpretations or current climate, and all this type of stuff. And try to not do these kinds of things. And be more inclusive of other cultures, and maybe focus more on women and people of color. All these types of stuff that aren’t usually discussed in ancient history.
Lysol: Okay, well, thank you so much Jordan!
Jordan: Yeah, thank you for having me!
Lysol: This is where we’ll close our interview with you, but we’re really happy that we got the chance to have you come in to talk to us.
Jordan: It was great!
Early Egyptians: 21:01-24:45 Albert: Special thanks again to Jordan as we transition into the next part of our podcast where we talk about how the Ancient Egyptians may have wanted us to perceive their culture.
In order to talk about mummies through time, we must first cover what the early Egyptians intended to achieve with this process.
When we think about mummies, we think of the dead, sarcophagi, and riches, but let’s start with one of the most obvious parts, linen wrappings. Many of us, including myself, have the misconception that linen wrappings were used only for preservation. But what if I told you that this is a misconception shattered by content found in predynastic tombs. You may be wondering, what does “predynastic” even mean? And what does this have to do with our modern-day perceptions about mummies?
The term predynastic refers to the time before the ruling families of Ancient Egypt took possession of power. And dynastic Egypt refers to the time from 2950 BCE to 322 AD (mistake in audio) when the last of these ruling families, or dynasties, ruled.2
Keeping these terms in mind, there are similarities in predynastic and dynastic tombs in that they both show a focus on of wealth and status. As most of us know, the pyramids and tombs we associate with Ancient Egypt were the final resting places of some of the most wealthy and powerful nobles and the pharaohs, of course. Similarly, archaeological evidence from one of the religious and political capitals of prehistoric Egypt, Hierakonpolis, highlights how wealth and social class influenced the size of the burial pits and the goods found within them. For reference, this was around in the 5th and 4th millennia BCE.3
In Christina Rigg’s “Unwrapping Ancient Egypt,” she fights the claim that linen wrappings were used for the sake of preservation, and we totally agree.4 As our interviewee Jordan confirmed, the primary preservation of predynastic mummies was not due to the linens, but actually because of the hot climate of the desert.5 Basically, the whole idea is that the use of linens around this time can be argued to have purposes other than just preservation.6
When the first bodies began to be treated with resin soaked linen in predynastic times, they were wrapped specifically around the hands and head. Let’s remember that these examples predate the mummies from the first dynasties by as much as 3000 years, so these partial wrappings are believed to be the first of their kind. In her book, Rigg’s also stresses that different wrapping techniques have existed throughout the history of Egypt, so the use of these textiles has not been static or continuous. But of course, this fact goes unknown and is not portrayed in modern literature or film at all. All we know are the fully wrapped mummies that will curse whoever disturbs them.
Thanks for sticking with us so far! I know we’ve been throwing around a lot of dates and vocabulary, but the one thing from this section that we want you to remember is how the Ancient Egyptians perceived mummies. As we discussed, the burial of mummies portrayed their wealth and importance, while the process of mummification had practical and religious values. So it’s not wrong to show elaborate tombs and reproductions of pyramids when talking about mummies. But we often don’t remember to include that there were precursors to this practice which set the stage for mummification. We should not neglect the goal of trying to understand the original purpose of the process of mummification.
Topic: On Early Travelers 24:46-29:03 Lily: Speaking of linens, one of the primary reasons as to why they were not addressed was that the people who broke into ancient Egyptian tombs didn’t care enough about the linens to preserve them, and why would they? One of the most fascinating and revolting cases of mummies in relation to the Western world was the case of mummy cannibalism. Now, people have been traveling to Egypt throughout its history. Traces of wares from foreign countries like Nubia, Yemen, and Libya were found in ancient Egypt. However, Egypt first began to truly open up itself for trade around the 12th dynasty in the Middle Kingdom,7 after which time acclaimed travelers like Herodotus and Hecataeus made their trips to Egypt and generated some of the few eye-witness accounts (or they claimed) of the customs and culture of the ancient Egyptians during the 27th dynasty.8 During this entire time, tombs of royals and nobles were looted by both the Egyptians themselves and by foreigner.9 In regards to the drive for looting, none was more revolting and inhumane than for the purpose of using the bodies of mummies for medicine. In medieval Europe, and peaking during the 16th and 17th centuries, first the noble Europeans and later the masses used mummy parts for cures to illnesses and pains. Mummy parts would be lined on the shelves of apothecaries, and the parts of the mummies themselves would be ground up into tinctures to treat anything from internal injuries to headaches. Merchants looted Egyptian tombs in order to meet the high demand for the panacea.10 During the 18th century, though, the use of mummies for medical purposes died down, and again, Western looters of Egyptian tombs trampled the bodies for which the tombs were built without a care. However, that all changed when public dissection of mummies became a popular form of entertainment. Now instead of being ground up into powder, mummies were (sold as) “objects of science.” People were willing to pay for the live display of “scientists” dissecting mummies, and whoever paid more would get a seat closer to the mummy (and some were willing to pay a lot).11 This hideous part of European history remains hidden, along with the entire history of Westerners fetishizing Egypt.
Speaking of which, did you know that the last line of rulers of Egypt were not Egyptian? They were Macedonian Greeks from the line of Ptolemy I Soter, one of Alexander the Great’s most well known generals. And Speaking of Alexander the Great, did you know that he was mummified after his death and that his mausoleum was in Egypt (or, actually, is still somewhere there)? Well, when Alexander the Great died, his general Ptolemy managed to secure Alexander’s body, had him mummified, and placed within a mausoleum inside the city of Alexandria. Celebrities from all over the ancient world came to Alexandria to pay their respects to their idol, with the hopes and dreams that they’ll be as great as Alexander the Great someday. You see, most admirers would just visit Alexander’s mausoleum, and with admiration and respect showing in their eyes, take off their cloaks and strip bare their jewelry (or show respect other ways) and lay them on Alexander the Great’s tomb to pay their respects to one of history’s most glorified murd- (ahem) conquerors. But there was this one dude, this Roman Emperor called Caracalla (I’m probably butchering his name), who, according to Fritze, began to believe that he was the incarnation of Alexander the Great and started parading all over the place, telling people to refer to him using “Alexander” and “great.” Gotta admit though, this guy was pretty amusing; that was what the people of Alexandria thought too…before he massacred their young men and ordered his soldiers to loot and pillage the city. Anyway, after that, the tomb and corpse of Alexander the Great began to fade from documented history as Caracalla marks the last mention of the mausoleum of Alexander.12 I went off on a tangent there, but you get the point. In the ancient world, the attitudes of foreigners and travelers toward ancient Egypt could have ranged from respecting and adopting Egypt’s culture to not having not a care about it and view cultural remnants of the ancient Egyptian world as nothing but lucrative commodities that have the potential to make millions (or whatever number that screams rich in the ancient world), or they could have landed anywhere in between.
Topic: Modern — From Herodotus to Hollywood 29:04-34:47 Diana: The perception of mummies has undoubtedly changed over time. Mummies have excited considerable interest among all foreign visitors to Egypt. The earliest writings referring to them come from the fifth-century BC Greek historian, Herodotus, who provided detailed accounts, describing mummies as manifestations of an ancient culture. Of course there were claims that Herodotus had never even gone to Egypt and, primarily, based his knowledge off of what he had learned from previous travelers, like Hecataeus himself. Hecataeus was a predecessor of Herodotus, who, according to surviving fragments, made important contributions in ethnology, demography and history. Herodotus might have simply come up with his own tale about the ancient Egyptian culture, misleading historians and archaeologists, who relied heavily on the way Greeks saw Egyptians at the time. Yet, again, nothing is definite. In his writings, Herodotus purports to have talked to Egyptian priests extensively and all over Egypt, yet, he retained the belief that in Egypt everything is backwards: women buy and sell while men stay at home and take care of the children, Egyptians relieve themselves at home and eat in the streets. How could Herodotus travel the length of Egypt and talk to the most educated men all over the country and still go on talking like this without explaining himself?13 Unfortunately, we cannot simply go back in time in search of answers for our most unsettled questions. And, as we all know, cultural misinterpretation can lead to inevitable consequences, especially, if the country that misinterprets the culture holds some sort of authority in the world, but we will talk about this in a minute.
Moving on to a more recent history, mummies were so popular in Europe in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance that they are frequently referred to in literature. Shakespeare’s apothecary in Romeo and Juliet stocks mummy, while in Othello mummy was part of a magic potion. The earliest Western interest was not in the cultural value of the mummies, but rather in their medical feature, but that idea was forgotten by the end of the Renaissance era. The turning point of increased popular interest and investigation of Ancient Egypt was Napoleon Bonaparte’s invasion of Egypt in 1798. The Emperor-to-be took with him a commission of historians and archaeologists to record all geographical and monumental findings. Almost all of the material collected was passed into the hands of the British and their museums. This fact might gross you guys out, but can you imagine, that Napoleon commanded to detach respectively the heads from a male and female corpse and present it to his wife, Josephine? That is just not the present one would hope to receive for a Valentine’s Day today. Other complete mummies collected during the expedition were taken to the Louvre. At the time, the French were collecting the corpses primarily as decorative objects, since the popularity of mummies was growing rapidly.14
As the nineteenth century progressed, Egypt opened up more and more to tourism and affluent visitors. This was also the beginning of Orientalism. Since the publication of Edward Said’s Orientalism in 1978, much academic institutions have begun to use the term “Orientalism” to refer to a general condescending Western attitude towards Middle Eastern societies. In Said’s analysis, the West characterizes these societies as static and undeveloped, forging a view of Oriental culture that can be studied and reproduced. Behind this terrible fabrication, writes Said, is the idea that Western society is rational and superior. Such representation of the Middle East expresses a will to, sometimes, control the perception of a given culture around the world by the West. The West has taken advantage of Egypt and its great possessions, including the mummies, crediting found materials to itself. Disrespect to cultural values and falsely-made assumptions about Egypt and its civilians have led the majority to believe that the Egyptians are uneducated savages that cannot make use of the dynasty that was left to them.15 Well, that is just absurd. Instead of making accusations, it is more rational to try and get to know the culture through the eyes of the nation itself. Don’t you guys agree? This way one’s knowledge will be less biased and will be based on actual facts.
All these inaccurate beliefs gave birth to the famous Hollywood movies that we enjoy today. The Mummy saga has turned the mummies into one of the greatest reflections of evil in film and around the world. Children dress up for Halloween as mummies to scare their neighbours and receive treats for it. Many, who study Egyptian culture and, especially those who live in it, consider this behavior disrespectful.16 Ahmed Elgazar, who lives in Egypt, expresses his opinion on Quora and writes, “as an Egyptian, I think Hollywood has no idea about Egypt and never did. Every representation of Egypt modern, old or ancient in every American movie has been nothing short of pathetic, insulting and stupid. They get everything wrong, every single time.”17 Media, today, plays a fundamental role in shaping our perceptions about the world. It is a very powerful weapon a dominant power can possess. Media stereotypes promote criticism of mummies, which can invalidate demands for their removal from display. Some examples include the Royal Cornwall Museum in Truro, that shows no images of human remains other than wrapped mummies online, and the Egypt gallery at Bristol City Museum and Art Gallery that displays a body curved into a fetal position in a dark case; visitors have to press a button to reveal the body; some mummies are displayed with their coffin lids half closed.18 We have been told that mummies are scary and evil; we have been shown a lot of movies that promote unkind stereotypes, which further lead to a false understanding of how important it is to respect and study our past.
Conclusion: 34:48-36:17 Round table discussion Lily: Thank you, Diana. Those words carry over perfectly to our concluding segment.
First, we would like to thank everyone that has made it this far into our podcast about mummies.
The perception of mummies throughout time, whether through the eyes of Ancient Egyptians, philosophers of the classical period, or the modern film industry has been the focus of this podcast. But let’s not forget that the sources we use to study these perspectives may have biases that interfere with the truth.
Diana: We hope that our podcast introduces or reinforces the importance of studying our past without letting our own biases cloud our judgment.
Not only that, we should also check the biases of others, as well. This work begins in our conversations with friends, in the classroom, or even with professionals. As Jordan said, “be inquisitive, be judgmental, and always seek the truth!”
Albert: And we’d like to remind all of you that our colleagues have also created podcasts for your enjoyment, so please give them a listen! Special thanks to Robyn Price, Courtney Jacobs, Simon Lee, Deidre Whitmore, Jordan Galczynski, and Tom Garbelotti. These are the amazing people who made all this happen. Thanks again!
Works Cited Armayor, O.K. “Did Herodotus Ever Go to Egypt.” Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, 1978, 59–73.
Brandt, J. Rasmus. “Death and Changing Rituals.” Oxbow Books, United States. 2015.
Crouch, Chad. “Rainbow.” Motion. Chad Crouch, track 6. Free Music Archive, 2019.https://freemusicarchive.org.
Crouch, Chad. “Very.” Motion. Chad Crouch, track 7. Free Music Archive, 2019. https://freemusicarchive.org.
Day, Jasmine. The Mummy’s Curse: Mummymania in the English-Speaking World. 1st ed., Routledge, 2006.
Dolan, Maria. “The Gruesome History of Eating Corpses as Medicine.” Smithsonian, 2012. https://www.smithsonianmag.com.
Elgazar, Ahmed. “What Do Egyptians Think of the Representation of Ancient Egyptian Culture in ‘American Gods?” Quora, 2018. www.quora.com.
Fritze, R. H. Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession, and Fantasy. 2017.
Ikram, Salima, and Aidan Dodson. The Mummy in Ancient Egypt: Equipping the Dead for Eternity. Thames & Hudson, 1998.
Said, Edward W. Orientalism. New York: Pantheon Books, 1978.
Kennedy, Maev. “Museums Avoid Displaying Human Remains ‘Out of Respect.’” The Guardian, 21 Oct. 2010, www.theguardian.com.
Peet, T. Erick. “The Abbott Papyrus. The Great Tomb-Robberies of the Twentieth Egyptian Dynasty: being a critical study, with translations and commentaries, of the papyri in which these are recorded.” Clarendon Press, Oxford. 1930, 1-49. http://ls-tlss.ucl.ac.uk.
Riggs, Christina. Unwrapping Ancient Egypt, London and New York: Bloomsbury Publishing. 2014.
Stevenson, Alice. “Predynastic Burials.” In Willeke Wendrich (ed.), UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles. 2009. https://uee.cdh.ucla.edu.
Department of Defense Legacy Resource Management Program. “Timeline of Egyptian History and Culture.” Egypt: Timeline of History & Culture, Colorado State University,www.cemml.colostate.edu.
Wengrow, David. “Predynastic Art.” In Willeke Wendrich (ed.), UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles. 2009. http://digital2.library.ucla.edu
Crouch, Chad. “Rainbow.” Motion. Chad Crouch, 2019, track 6. Free Music Archive, https://freemusicarchive.org.
Crouch, Chad. “Very.” Motion. Chad Crouch, 2019, track 7. Free Music Archive, https://freemusicarchive.org.
Images:
Daley, Jason. “A photograph of Fred, the mummy: mummification and embalming of bodies before pharaonic Egypt.” Smithsonianmag. 16 Aug., 2018. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/egyptians-created-mummies-thousand-years-earlier-thought-180970052/
Burton, Harry. “Photos of the treasures found in the tomb of Tutankhamen. No. 616, 1169, 1165.”Griffith Institute, University of Oxford, colourised by Dynamichrome, 1926. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/discoveringTut/burton5/burtoncolour.html
“Photo of Adult Cat Mummy.” Britishmuseum. https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&assetid=1018277001&objectid=109938.
“Photo of dog mummy.” Sharm-club. https://www.sharm-club.com/en-us/egypt/history/animal-mummies-in-egypt.
“Photo of Apis Bull Sarcophagus.” Tripadvisor.. https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g730107-d469559-i140928098-Serapeum-Saqqara_Giza_Governorate.html
Thomson, Aidan McRae. “Photo of catacombs of the ancient city of Hermopolis.” Flickr. 7 Oct., 2017. https://www.flickr.com/photos/amthomson/40419493434
Wilson, John. “Photo of sarcophagus of the ancient Egyptian cat Ta-Mit, pet of Prince Thutmose (brother of Akhenaten).” Pinterest. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/ab/23/6dab2344d66bd3bdd476a3fafee0415b.jpg
Medina, Manuel. “Photo of Egyptian official with dog under his chair.” Pinterest. https://www.pinterest.es/pin/435864070171233908/
Special collections:
Dicks, Ian and David Hawcock. Unwrap the mummy : a four-foot-long, fact-filled, pop-up mummy to explore. 1st American ed. New York, NY : Random House, 1995. UCLA Special Collections, call no. Z1033.T689 D54u 1995.
1 Dicks, Ian, and David Hawcock. Unwrap the Mummy: a Magnificent, Metre-High, Pop-up. Tango Books, 1995.2 Department of Defense Legacy Resource Management Program. “Timeline of Egyptian History and Culture.” Egypt: Timeline of History & Culture, Colorado State University, www.cemml.colostate.edu.]3 Stevenson, Alice. “Predynastic Burials.” In Willeke Wendrich (ed.), UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles. 2009. https://uee.cdh.ucla.edu.]4 Riggs, Christina. Unwrapping Ancient Egypt, London and New York: Bloomsbury Publishing, 2014.]5 See endnote 3.6 See endnote 4.7 Fritze, R. H. Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession, and Fantasy. 2017, 95.8 Armayor, O.K. “Did Herodotus Ever Go to Egypt.” Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, 1978, 59–73.9 Peet, T. Erick. “The Abbott Papyrus. The Great Tomb-Robberies of the twentieth Egyptian Dynasty: being a critical study, with translations and commentaries, of the papyri in which these are recorded.” Clarendon Press, Oxford. 1930, 1-49. http://ls-tlss.ucl.ac.uk, and refer to endnote 4.10 Armayor, Herodotus.11 Fritze, Egyptomania, 97.12 Fritze, R. H. Egyptomania: A History of Fascination, Obsession, and Fantasy. 2017, Chapter 3. 13 Armayor, Herodotus.14 Ikram, Salima, and Aidan Dodson. The Mummy in Ancient Egypt: Equipping the Dead for Eternity. Thames & Hudson, 1998.15 Said, Edward W. Orientalism. New York: Pantheon Books, 1978.16 Day, Jasmine. The Mummy’s Curse: Mummymania in the English-Speaking World . 1st ed., Routledge, 2006.17 Elgazar, Ahmed. “What Do Egyptians Think of the Representation of Ancient Egyptian Culture in ‘American Gods’?” Quora, 2018. www.quora.com.18 Kennedy, Maev. “Museums Avoid Displaying Human Remains ‘out of Respect’ .” The Guardian, 21 Oct. 2010, www.theguardian.com.
Who was Cleopatra? Why has her fame transcended across time throughout all of history? Depends on who you ask. These questions and more will be discussed in the contents of this podcast.
Alexis Kim, Undergraduate UCLA
Lily Marquez, Undergraduate UCLA
Radha Patel, Undergraduate UCLA
Roberto Vindel, Undergraduate UCLA
Featuring Kylie Thomsen, Graduate Student, UCLA
Transcript Section I: Introduction (00:00:00)
ALEXIS: Hey guys, welcome back to Now as Then Podcast: Episode #2: Cleopatra: The Last Pharaoh. You are here with Alexis, Radha, Lily, and Roberto. Before we begin, we would just like to give special thanks to Simon Lee and Courtney Jacobs for giving us access to the Young Research Library Special Collections area, and to Deidre Whitmore and Tom Garbelotti for giving us continuous tech support throughout this course, as well as to Kylie Thomsen for allowing us to interview her during her very busy schedule. Without further ado, let’s get started!
So, when you think of Cleopatra, what exactly comes to mind? Do you think about her relationships with Julius Caesar and Marc Antony? Do you think about Shakespeare’s famous play? Maybe even the 20th century film about her starring Elizabeth Taylor? Maybe even Katy Perry’s “Dark Horse” video, which is rather Egyptian themed.
Well, we can’t really say just why she has maintained her popularity throughout history, but we can conjecture that it is most likely from her contact with the Ancient Romans. But I…what I think is really unfortunate is that people don’t tend to focus on her achievements before this. I think instead people like to focus on the drama and art surrounding her famous love affairs in the “exotic” realm of Egypt, and just tend to forget about what she’s done before that.
In this podcast, we will be discussing the various misconceptions that have or have been figured upon Cleopatra in order to unravel what exactly people thought of her across time. We will first discuss her influence in the past, beginning with a brief background about her, and how different depictions of her have changed the ways she is viewed over time. Let’s begin.
Section I.2. Cleopatra’s Background (00:02:12)
ALEXIS:So, first of all, some background on Cleopatra. She is most known for her affairs with Antony and Caesar, but she was actually quite the successful ruler before that, and she was, in fact, probably the most powerful ruler of the Ptolemaic dynasty.
So Cleopatra VII was the daughter of Ptolemy XII and Cleopatra Tryphaena. Her name, Cleopatra, means “glory of her father”, and her other name, Philopator, is a common royal epithet giving to Hellenistic monarchs, and it’s given to mean “she who loves her father”. Her other other name Thea is “Goddess” so in summation, her name basically means “Goddess Who Loves Her Father”, and I suppose that this is very fitting, because she was very close to her father, and she ruled jointly beside him until he died. After his death, Cleopatra succeeded the throne at the age of 19 and was given the title of “Lady of the Two Lands”. And since a woman could not rule without a male escort, she married her brother Ptolemy XIII who was only 10 years old at the time.1 Just on a side note here, this marriage is debated among scholars, because it was likely to have happened but we don’t really have physical evidence for it, so maybe take that with caution.2
Though Cleopatra ascended the throne at a very young age, she was very talented woman, especially with language. She could speak about 8 languages fluently, and she never relied on interpreters. Her language set included African, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Egyptian, and this is actually really important because she is said to be the only Ptolemy to ever learn the Egyptian language, as the rest of them did not. She was also very independent, which caused her some trouble with her members of court, actually her independent attitude was one of the reasons why she was actually exiled. So what had happened was her chief adviser overthrew her and placed her brother Ptolemy XIII on the throne as the sole ruler and pharaoh.
While she was in exile, Julius Caesar had set up martial law in ancient Egypt after learning that Pompey the Great was killed by Ptolemy XIII. Cleopatra, saw this as an opportunity to gain back her power, and became lovers with Caesar, which outraged the reigning pharaoh, who decided to declare war on the both of them. Caesar and Cleopatra were besieged in for about 6 months until Roman reinforcements rescued them. Just on a little side note here, I find it really interesting that, because I…I took these sources from encyclopedias, and I am of the belief that encyclopedias are supposed to be objective sources of information, but I find it kind of questionable when the article implies that only Cleopatra was being manipulative in the relationship with Caesar. I’ve actually found other accounts of authors finding that both Cleopatra and Caesar wanted to use each other to gain something.3 And in fact, one author asserts that Caesar saw the opportunity to settle Egypt’s debt with Rome, and Cleopatra saw a way to obtain the throne, from her brother. Under their relationship she actually repaid the debt to Rome, which was incurred by her father, and she did this by changing the value of currency by adding new metals to the ancient Egyptian coins.
After the war, Cleopatra gave birth to Ptolemy XV who is also known as Caesarion, and Caesar brought the both of them to Rome with him, which actually angered many of the Roman nobility. Cleopatra tried to assuage their anger with lavish ancient Egyptian gifts, but they were seen as impractical and ludicrous displays of wealth instead of the peace offerings they were meant to be.
After Caesar’s assassination, Cleopatra and Caesarion fled back to Alexandria in Egypt, and Marc Antony was sent after them as part of his investigation to interrogate any suspects involved with Caesar’s murder, and he actually summoned Cleopatra to appear in Tarsus to answer to charges that she was in on the assassination. Cleopatra actually charmed Marc Antony with her rumored wit and charm, and they also became lovers. Marc Antony was said to love her to the point where he actually divorced his Roman wife Octavia to marry Cleopatra legally, which was a really big insult to his kind of co-ruler, Octavian, who actually, basically incited a Roman Civil War as Antony and Octavian’s relationship kind of disintegrated. Eventually, Cleopatra and Antony were defeated at the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE. They both committed suicide, Antony decided to stab himself after reading a false report of Cleopatra’s death, and Cleopatra chose death by snakebite after realizing the gravity of her defeat by Octavian.4
So like I mentioned previously, these summary excerpts were taken from Ancient Encyclopedia as well as the Encyclopedia Britannica, but I think it is worth noting that several pieces of the information given are a little bit questionable. An example of this is where Ancient Encyclopedia asserts that Cleopatra’s death was by snakebite, definitively, but the real fact of the matter is that we just don’t know. Cleopatra’s death is actually a complete mystery, and to date, nobody has found any physical evidence relating to how she died, and this is because the location of her tomb is unknown, and as of right now it’s lost to history. Plutarch maintains the “death by snakebite with a basket of figs” narrative, where he details that she had a basket of figs brought to her but hidden inside the basket were several Egyptian cobras, and when she put her hand in the basket, that’s how she died, but other historians, including Dio and Galen, assert that she killed herself with poison instead of snakebites. So, Galen asserts that Cleopatra bit open her own skin and then applied poison on the wound, 5 while Dio found that she died either from a snakebite or from stabbing herself with a poisoned hairpin.6 Most sources do agree on the fact that it was suicide, but all this is to say that we may not know the exact reason so we may have to take this information with a grain of salt.
Section I.3. Orientalism (00:09:22)
RADHA: Before we begin discussing how old sources have interpreted Cleopatra in ancient Egypt, we want to inform you what effects do these old sources have based on Columbia University’s professor Edward Said, who is a researcher on literature and author of his book Orientalism. According to Said, there are misinterpretations that are drawn towards countries that have been colonized by Europeans or made contact with Europeans. First we must distinguish the Orient from Westernization and European civilizations. The Orient consists of “Europe’s greatest and richest and oldest colonies,” civilizations, languages, and “recurring images of the Other.”7 Thus we can suggest that in ancient Egypt, Europeans had framed this country as the Orient by depicting this culture as exotic and in this case for the podcast, portraying Cleopatra as an inferior queen with false interpretations about her. As Said shortly defines it, Orientalism is a way of Westernization “for dominating, restructuring, and having authority over the Orient.”8 You will notice in this podcast that Europeans and the West have recreated Cleopatra by falsifying her real history, and transformed her identity that alludes to how she has become portrayed today as we will see in the present how even in movies and pictures she is depicted with a sexualized image, the Orient.
As you listen to this podcast, we want you to consider Edward Said’s interpretation of Orientalism and Cleopatra’s background to be perspicacious of what we have found as we take you back in time from historical writers to what modern depictions of this noble and intelligent queen has become.
Section II: Old perspective on Roman Influence (00:11:10)
ALEXIS: So, now we’re going to move to our kind of old perspective on Cleopatra, and old sources talking about Cleopatra may not be as dependable as we once thought. One of the most ancient critics of Cleopatra is Plutarch, who is, again, like the information is questionable, because out of many reasons, he was alive about 100-200 years after Cleopatra’s death, so considering he wasn’t even alive to see her, to know her, to meet her, the information coming from him is maybe not the most reliable. He, and this is actually a common motif among the classical historians, they tend to comment on her wit and charm, rather than her looks, which they claim are maybe not as beautiful as compared to other women. So Plutarch maintains that she is witty and charming, but again, he takes a cheap swing at her looks, where he says: “For her beauty, as we are told, was in itself not altogether incomparable, nor such as to strike those who saw her; but converse with her had an irresistible charm, and her presence, combined with the persuasiveness of her discourse and the character which was somehow diffused about her behaviour towards others, had something stimulating about it.”9 end quote. While he gives her this credit, he tends to actually portray Cleopatra as more of like a wicked seductress that led Antony to his downfall by basically implying that she ruined both of Antony’s marriages, first to his first wife Fulvia, and then with Octavia. He actually portrays her as a master actress and manipulator, and there’s a very big quote from him, but it’s basically saying that she pretended to love him and made her body slimmer with dieting, and put on “fake looks of rapture when he drew near”, and “one of faintness and melancholy when he went away”10
I think it’s really interesting that he is directly arguing that Cleopatra’s love for Antony was completely fake, and I think it’s interesting that he makes this conclusion because he wasn’t even alive to even have any substantial evidence for this. I would also like to point out that Plutarch does not blame Antony for being unfaithful to his Roman wife, but rather chooses to blame Cleopatra, the “exotic seductress” from the unknown and foreign lands of Egypt. I think there is inherent bias against Cleopatra, not only because she is a woman, but also because of the fact that she is not of Roman descent. Cleopatra, on a side note here, is not technically Egyptian, she’s actually Macedonian Greek, but her association with Egypt, as she was the ruler, it made her something to be looked down upon by the Romans.
Now, considering the fact that Plutarch was one of the most ancient sources available to Egyptologists, I think it is not really a surprise to us that this particular image of her as a seductress of sorts has persisted into modern times, since many people drew off of his work when they were describing Cleopatra, and this includes Shakespeare when he wrote the play Antony and Cleopatra. However, I do believe that as we get into the modern centuries, opinions are changing and people are starting to question the authorities of historians like Plutarch, and I think, with more and more archaeological discoveries being made every day, I think this could eventually lead to more accurate information on Cleopatra with less inherent bias inside of it.
Section II.1. Discussion (00:15:08)
Okay so I know I definitely talked a lot about Plutarch and his misogynistic, “Rome-is-better-than-Egypt” kind of thing, but I bet you guys are probably wondering, like okay we know the ancient perspective, so what? What about modern times? I do think that even though Plutarch’s kind of way of thinking about Cleopatra has persisted into the modern era, I also believe that modern narrative is kind of going towards a more objective view of Cleopatra and people are actually really starting to question the authority of figures like Plutarch. I can argue that one example includes the author Adrian Goldsworthy, and he basically chronicled Antony and Cleopatra’s entire relationship from beginning to end, and in his introduction of his book, he actually asserts that he thinks that people feel pressured to support Cleopatra and give opinions in her favor, but he believes that Cleopatra and Antony should be viewed in a non-opinionated way, completely, just because we little to no information about them as people so he thinks that us as modern viewers, we don’t really have a right to form an opinion about them.11 I guess this is kind of an improvement on people’s view of Cleopatra, but I’m actually going to get into greater detail with that kind of thing. I’m with Lily right now, and we’re going to have like a short discussion on how we think that views on Cleopatra have changed.
So I know I’ve been talking a lot about ancient sources, kind of that, Plutarch, misogynistic, potentially inaccurate view, so I kind of just want to know what are your thoughts on how the narrative of Cleopatra has changed.
LILY: So my thoughts, of course, come from a modern scholar named Cecilia Peek, who actually has two articles on Cleopatra, one of her expulsion during her early reigning years and the other one talks about the Nile cruise she had with Julius Caesar. So in the article about the expulsion of Cleopatra, Cecilia Peek asserts that even though Cleopatra was deposed during her early years of reign, she later became popular as queen to the ancient Egyptians. She was so popular among them, that during upheaval against Rome, which was, you know, their enemy at the time, they all rose up to fight on her behalf.12
ALEXIS:Wow, okay, so that’s like overwhelming favor of her, almost. That’s really quite different from the narrative that Plutarch kind of picks apart.
LILY:Who would be willing to fight for…
ALEXIS: Yeah, I can’t find any of my people willing to rise up and fight for me, so… (laughter) but wow that’s really quite different from the ancient perspective we were getting before.
LILY: In the other article, “On the Nile Cruise”, Peek praises her achievements, where she’s restoring ties with Upper Egypt and reinforcing connections with neighboring civilizations such as Rome, but inevitably she achieved all this through her relationship with Julius Caesar at the time.13
ALEXIS: So that, yeah, that’s definitely painting her in a different sort of light. I know for a fact that Plutarch doesn’t really credit her with too much of anything, and kind of just makes her look bad over the course of his Roman Lives compendium of stories, but this was really good, definitely a good discussion on how it changed over time.
Section II.2. Old Perspective, Continued (00:19:37)
ROBERTO: Alright, alright! old sources in the field of Egyptology usually don’t come with reliable information, especially those coming from greek scholars, such as Herodotus or Diodorus, especially Herodotus, since, you know, there’s a whole debate whether he actually went to Egypt or not, so I don’t know if you can trust that. They shared biased views, but can still provide some, and I can’t stress this enough, some, semi-modern perspectives. There is this author, Arthur Weigall, who wrote the life and times of Cleopatra Queen of Egypt. This book was first published in 1914, so we can pretty much assume it’s as reliable as pouring a bottle of water on a forest fire. Weigall states throughout the first half of his book that it is good to have an unbiased opinion, but then continues throughout the second half of his book to describe Cleopatra as a seductress of Roman men.14 So pretty much, going to the contrary of what he stated in the beginning. Most of his evidence is spotty, but he believes that she was manipulative, and used her wit to gain an empire, not caring for anything that did not lead her to more power, or securing power for her children’s future. The view must have been popular, since this book was published not once, not twice, not three times, but it was published four times within a decade: first in 1914, then in 1923, 1924, and 1926. Around a decade after it was first published, there was some negativity that had been propagated by the book around this female queen, showing Romans as the underdogs until Octavian takes over and frees them from the tyranny that is Cleopatra. This can reflect the political and social landscape at the time. It could be propaganda that women weren’t generally seen in positions of power, and if they ever reached a position of power, it wouldn’t end as well as if it were a man. This would not only affect how the scientific or analytical world views Cleopatra and her rule, but also the young readers of the time, the public that are being influenced and given the wrong view of Cleopatra and how she came into power and came out of power.
(00:22:05)
RADHA: As Robert mentioned, a seductress Cleopatra problematizes her role as a powerful ruler. If she is only seen as a seductress in call for political power, then this is nonetheless a product of gender bias that underestimates her sexual and political authority as Mary Hamer says in her 1993 book “Signs of Cleopatra.” She is constantly appropriated and transformed in history as a patriarchal woman to a woman who is a cultural artifact that “problematizes power relations between the sexes.”15 This is not fair to her reflection as a powerful queen who deserves equal standing alongside powerful kings. Furthermore, this gives the wrong impression of what we should be looking at Cleopatra as according to her true history.
Section III. Moving Towards the Modern Era (00:22:50)
RADHA: We see Cleopatra represented in various contexts relating to love, politics, and sexual appeal as she is our famous celebrity today. As Alexis, Lily, and Roberto suggest, historical sources deflect against Cleopatra’s identity by falsifying facts that intertwine with her relationship with the Romans. Not only have historical accounts of Cleopatra falsified the past, but we can see her representations being accounted further down in history. From Shakespeare’s play Antony and Cleopatra to Las Vegas’ Cleopatra Barge at Caesars Palace and Cleopatra Hollywood films. We do not see the truest form of Cleopatra in the movies. Just look at her character played by Elizabeth Taylor! She is actively played by a British-American actress, when in reality, Cleopatra is actually descended from Macedonian Greek ancestry. While other sources mention her to have some Persian blood because of her richly dark complexion, inherited from her grandmother who was a Seleucid princess, while she also has a pointed nose and copper hair.16 However, if you observe many pictures and films in the modern era and the past, a lot of these images of her do not show all of these qualities with accuracy.
What do you think this may suggest? According to Edward Said’s definition towards Orientalism, the Western and European perspectives of race depict a bias towards ancient Egyptian culture by integrating their own opinions while also making the ancient Egyptians seen as the ‘other.’17 In Cleopatra’s case, we see her as a sexualized ruler with different depictions of her clothing and actions in film that change her true identity as a powerful queen by Western people. These transformations that we see of Cleopatra are due to the past carrying these identifications of her into the present that falsify who she truly was. This is truly problematic to the modern century as these stereotypical approaches destroy the true identity of ancient Egypt and Cleopatra.
It is unclear whether this is a racist backlash. But can we say that this is a sign of European dominance? Or Western power over foreign countries?
Before Shakespeare’s play Antony and Cleopatra, many writers found her to be noble for courtly love and for confessing her wrong doings by declaring Antony as innocent. This is seen from their love relationship and Antony’s death when he tried to commit suicide after receiving a letter from Cleopatra claiming she was dead, when in reality she wanted him to return to her after he left her announcing her betrayal.18 However, soon after, Elizabethan writers expressed the deaths of Antony and Cleopatra as a source of lust and passion for each other while Shakespeare’s story suggests the dangers of love affairs considering the letter he had read about Cleopatra’s death.19 His story of Antony and Cleopatra are a multiform to the story of Romeo and Juliet as both lovers died in the end of the story. In this case, the end plot of Shakespeare’s playwright is similar to the real account of what we know about Antony’s death. Antony wounds himself after receiving a letter from Cleopatra that she is dead and returns to her when he finds out that she is alive (Act 4 Sc.15). 20 He dies in Cleopatra’s arms and in grief Cleopatra decides to kill herself with a snake bite (Act 5 Sc. 2).21 However, in our actual historical resources, we do not know how exactly she died. Similarly, to Romeo and Juliet, Romeo kills himself after witnessing Juliet dead even though she was not, when she wakes up, Juliet kills herself soon after.22 Whether this was Shakespeare’s way of reflecting towards kinship relationships in relation to political power during his time can be questionable and is for another podcast.
Anyhow, we see a mixture of perspectives that come across Cleopatra and her history. From Shakespeare’s play, we can see some evidence of real facts that reflect Cleopatra’s story, even though it does not match up to her death, we can at least recognize that she has some connection to her true history with alterations added to it. Despite that there are some similarities, these alterations to her story can be Shakespeare’s choice of writing, but also it can exemplify Cleopatra and Antony’s love affair even though it is uncertain how close their relationship truly was. In the 18th and 19th century, Cleopatra is written as a “weak and passionate” contributor to politics and an icon to feminism and seduction.23 We see this type of identity carried later in the 20th and 21st century starting from movie depictions, such as Cleopatra, starring British-American actress Elizabeth Taylor. This is nonetheless an orientalist view of this woman who is judged by her political authority while centralizing her away from other ancient Egyptian rulers by illuminating her as a seductress who is played by the role of a European despite that Cleopatra is closely associated to ancient Egypt and is Macedonian Greek.
Section III.1. Cleopatra in Film (00:28:04)
LILY: Hello, it’s Lily here, and I will be talking about the 1963 Cleopatra movie that stars Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra. One particular scene is when she’s entering Rome with her son on this big, exotic Egyptian litter, which to me looked over-extravagant, and it is being carried by slaves of the queen.24 These laborers are somewhat diverse in skin complexion, they are both light colored as well as dark colored individuals. A little more into the scene, however, there are only black individuals or the ones with a darker skin complexion, carrying the smaller Egyptian litter where Cleopatra and her son sit upon. This leads us to question the possible purposeful display of dichotomy that Orientalist ideas create, where the ones with a lighter complexion prevail over the darker ones. In the case of this scene, the whitewashed Cleopatra, which was previously mentioned by Radha, is only being carried by the black servants, boldly depicting this strong dichotomy that the whites are superior and usually in power, while the rest and or nonwhite are at the bottom. Also, considering that the movie came out during racially-segregated America, there could be a purpose in wanting to portray a white Cleopatra along with the race and power dichotomy that we see here in this scene.
(00:30:05)
LILY: I’ll be talking about one more scene in the 1963 Cleopatra movie that further exhibits a highly westernized and cunning Cleopatra. So this is a scene where Cleopatra pays a secret visit to Julius Caesar in Rome asking him to help her become queen of Egypt. It’s also the infamous scene where she shows up rolled in a carpet. Cleopatra comes off as very demanding and uses the right witty words to get under Julius Caesar’s skin, enough of them to get him to do as she says. The young queen tells the older ruler of Rome, “It’s the old story. Roman greatness built upon ancient Egyptian riches. You should have them. You should have them all. And in peace. But there is only one way. My way. Make me queen [of Egypt].”25 And of course, she’s asking him to make her a queen of Egypt, as she was co-ruling at the time with one of her younger brothers. You can find a very demanding tone in Cleopatra’s request. In addition, she uses the right words about “Roman greatness” being constructed upon ancient “Egyptian riches,” which Cleopatra uses to appeal and refer to the great Roman ruler Julius Caesar. Of course he’s going to want Roman greatness, that’s why she used the specific phrase in her request. Furthermore, this scene depicts the typical and orientalist view of a manipulative, power-thirsty Cleopatra, who later uses her wittiness to “seduce” her way into rulership, extending even beyond ancient Egyptian land.
RADHA: Cleopatra’s movie depictions in film are in connection to the orientalist perspective of ancient Egypt. We see that in film, there is an exotic ambivalence that makes the character Cleopatra not only portrayed as someone with a different identity, but also a characterization of her stereotypical power of seduction in the film starring Elizabeth Taylor. She is being reflected in this movie as an intelligent patriarchal ruler with an “erotic” symbolization.26 This is certainly a use of cultural misinterpretation towards ancient Egyptian queens that makes Cleopatra identified as a woman with sexual desire rather than articulating her powerful rulership as she had conveyed in the past. By suppressing her political authority, we see Cleopatra represented as a woman who envelops a sexual identity due to the orientalizing perspective of westernizations devaluing her credibility and power as a queen. Thus, causing us to see her as someone sexualized aside from her true identity that is conveyed in the background of this film.
Although Cleopatra is seen in film very creatively from western appeals, you see her closely associated to Western culture in the 21st century, at Nevada, Las Vegas, when you visit the Cleopatra Barge venue at the Caesars Palace hotel, (you must be 21 and over folks).27 We see her name across different areas of this hotel, such as the Cleopatra Villa, to articulate the fascination of what western culture has towards ancient Egypt, but by also signifying this country as ancient and exotic.
However, as you can tell, Cleopatra is transformed in our modern era as a woman who has political authority, while also having a sexual identity that contrasts from her own background. This is problematic in many ways as we have seen by her depiction presented by Elizabeth Taylor and her story that is developed in Shakespeare’s playwright. These types of representations of Cleopatra are controversial to the original identity of this figure that has been designed by Orientalism reconstructing her history and appearance to someone or something different. If Cleopatra saw these depictions of her now, how do you think she would feel about Western Orientalism recreating this image?
Who do you think Cleopatra was? We asked UCLA graduate student Kylie Thomsen to give us some insight on her perspectives.
Section IV. Interview with Kylie Thomsen (00:34:25)
ALEXIS:We are here with our interviewee, Kylie Thomsen, so would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself?
KYLIE: Sure. I am currently a first year PhD student, here at UCLA, in the Near-Eastern Languages and Civilizations Department, and I focus specifically in Egyptology. My research is not on Cleopatra, that’s 1500 years earlier, but definitely as an Egyptologist, you should know she is the last pharaoh as it were, in what we think of as Pharaonic Egypt, so we are all certainly familiar with her.
ALEXIS: Alright, that was really cool, and obviously, hopefully you can answer all of our questions, but I mean, obviously you’re not an expert on Cleopatra and that’s totally fine, but I think we should go ahead and get started, so I’ll hand it over.
RADHA: So have you seen movies relating to Cleopatra, and what is your opinion about those movies?
KYLIE: So I think the one that I saw is the one that everyone has seen, and I want to say it’s from the mid-60s with Elizabeth Taylor. I remember seeing that, I took this as an undergraduate student, I had some “classical art and archaeology”, like “As Seen in Film”, so that’s when I watched it, was like in an archaeology course. And, it’s just this like, very, you know, as you see in Hollywood whitewashes a lot of history and everything, especially being in the sixties, so you have this totally different display of who she may have been. And certainly, of course, they’re gonna play up the romance, the drama, everything like that. I can’t speak to movies made about Cleopatra throughout the 1900s, but certainly (I can speak to) the Cleopatra that everyone has mostly seen or seen pictures of.
ROBERTO: Do you think Egyptians benefited from the type of exposure Cleopatra received compared to other cultural figures from Egypt?
KYLIE: So as far as the ancient Egyptians went, as far as her notoriety, perhaps we could say, I think it’s fair to say that a large majority of the Egyptians didn’t know what was going on, as far as everything during the Ptolemaic period goes there’s a lot of craziness from our first Ptolemy, where you get her family line started. There’s a bunch of different Ptolemys she’s all related to. But as far as everyday Egyptians, certainly they had some idea of what was going on but you have to think where things are taking place, how information is travelling around the country, what’s important to them, so it’s really hard to speak to what it meant for them, other than they were feeling a lot of pressure from the Roman Empire. As for modern Egyptians, I’d say it’s the same thing. Maybe tourism plays a role, it’s hard for me to say but that could be something.
LILY: To wrap this up, what do you want the world to know about Cleopatra?
KYLIE: First and foremost, whatever you think about Cleopatra, take that out of your brain. Take the modern interpretations and portrayals of her and just go back to the ancient sources. Of course the propaganda is important as well, because it paints a picture of what was going on, but put her back in 70 BC, and just be aware of Egypt’s situation in the moment under the Ptolemaic period and what had been going on up until her reign, and what had been going on with Rome up until that point to understand why she had to do what she did, and the alliances she tried to make. But most importantly, go back and situate yourself in the proper context, because people forget how long ago this was, and just all of this paints a more accurate picture of who she was in Egypt or who she was in Rome. There’s going to be different accounts depending on who’s writing them and at what time period, but this will help you get closer to the root of who she was versus this almost fictional character now, versus a historical figure.
ALEXIS: Alright well that just about wraps up this interview, thank you so much for doing this with us, we really appreciate it!
KYLIE: I hope people who listen to this have a better idea of who Cleopatra VII is.
Section V. Young Library Special Collections (00:40:20)
ALEXIS: We’re here at the Young Library Special Collections areas, and we have some posters in front of us, detailing Cleopatra for the Palmolive soap and cosmetics lines. 28 There are posters from 1917 to 1925, and overall they seem to be actually quite similar, but what do you guys think first off?
RADHA: Well, Cleopatra is wearing different kinds of garments in each type of picture, but she most likely did not wear this type of garment when she was in her reign, so this may exemplify some sort of Western appeal to her clothing.
ALEXIS: I definitely agree, with the 1917 one it’s actually quite revealing and a bit sexualized in a sense, most likely just to sell better because there was a big craze around this time detailing Egypt being such an “exotic” place and so people wanted to jump on the train and start slapping Egyptian things on everything hoping it would sell.
ROBERTO: What is also noticeable is the color contrast between Cleopatra and her slaves, even though they’re probably from the same region, she is significantly whiter, showing the power complex that white people had during the times, to enforce that idea.
ALEXIS: I definitely agree with that, because in all 3 of the posters we are examining, they all have a very dark-skinned slave serving a very white-washed Cleopatra. In the 1920 one, she is almost as white as the paper itself, which is concerning because it should be blatantly obvious that she is not white, and she has very painted American/European makeup and features, which shows the blatant disrespect for the culture because if they did have respect for Egyptian culture, the would have put in a little more effort to show them more accurately the way they were supposed to be.
LILY: I think it further advocates the Orientalist idea that whites are superior to blacks and it also exemplifies the dichotomy between the two races.
ALEXIS: Another interesting point is that a lot of these advertisements are specifically about cleaning your face, and I think what they’re trying to get at is basically becoming a queen, like your beauty from cleaning your face will make you regal. It even specifically emphasizes smooth white hands which is a little bit questionable in our modern world.
Section VI. Conclusion (00:43:28)
ROBERTO: Now we know Cleopatra was a powerful ruler; however, we do not recognize her conceptually portrayed this way in our present day context. We continuously see her actively playing the role of a seductress over time while showing no sign of greater emphasis on her political authority as she had did in the past. Perhaps we can suggest that Western Cultures have notably recognized her as a woman with sexualized traits due to her gender and personal associations with Caesar and Antony rather than a symbolic ruler that she inherits from her Ptolemaic ancestors and have portrayed throughout her kingdom. Furthermore, we recognize her appearance completely transformed in the modern 21st century from film. These are major issues that we must assess in regards to how we should display and articulate ancient Egyptian queens. When utilizing media and other evidence, it’s important that we use research to analyze the truth about ancient Egyptian queens rather than falsifying facts and information that are from old sources or orientalist perspectives. We must consider the drawbacks and understand what is appropriate to depict Cleopatra in the correct context. Also, early studies on Cleopatra were developed upon biases and orientalist ideas, which painted the queen of Egypt with a sexually degrading concept: a woman seducing her way into greater power. These orientalist views were more focused on sexual fantasies about Cleopatra, and swept the matters of her rulership and achievements under the rug. These are issues that we must address when it comes to utilizing technology and evidence in our modern day by reverting these misconceptions of Cleopatra to unraveling what her true identity is to viewers and listeners all around. What will you do to change these perspectives of one of the most significant rulers in ancient Egyptian history? How long will it be until we don’t see these biases toward cultures? Thank You.
Works Cited Astrotema. Cleopatra (1963 ) Elizabeth Taylor Entrance into Rome Scene (HD). YouTube, YouTube, 3 June 2018, www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB5Wv8IHVf0&t=1s.
Booth, Charlotte. People of Ancient Egypt. Stroud: Tempus, 2006, pp. 264-266.
Cleopatra’s Barge, Caesars Palace, Web. Accessed 5 June 2019. https://www.caesars.com/caesars-palace/things-to-do/cleopatras-barge#.XPh51C2ZPMI.
Dio Cassius. Roman History, translated by Earnest Cary and Herbert B. Foster, Loeb Classical Library, 1914. Print.
EgyptStore. Cleopatra Part 3 1963. YouTube, YouTube, 21 Jan. 2010, www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sj6GKZBnP0&t=162s.
Foreman, Laura. Cleopatra’s Palace: In Search of a Legend. Del Mar, Calif: Discovery Books, 1999.
Galenus Claudius. De Theriaca ad Pisonem. Rivista di Storia Delle Scienze, Mediche, e Naturali, v.8, translated by Enrico Coturri and Michele Giuseppe Nardi, Firenze: L. S. Olschki, 1959. Print.
Goldsworthy, Adrian.Antony and Cleopatra, Yale University Press, 2010. Print.
Hamer, Mary. Signs of Cleopatra: History, Politics, Representation. London: Routledge, 1993.
Huzar, Eleanor G. “Mark Antony: Marriages vs. Careers”. The Classical Journal, Vol. 81, No. 2 (Dec., 1985 – Jan., 1986), The Classical Association of the Middle West and South, Inc. (CAMWS), 97-111.
Knippschild, Silke, and Morcillo M. García. Seduction and Power: Antiquity in the Visual and Performing Arts, 2015, 192.
Mark, Joshua J. “Cleopatra VII”. Ancient History Encyclopedia. Ancient History Encyclopedia, 30 October 2018, https://www.ancient.eu/Cleopatra_VII/, Accessed 27 May 2019.
Palmolive Advertisement 1917, Item No. 11, Jonathan Friedlander collection of Middle Eastern Americana (Collection 1314). Department of Special Collections, Charles E. Young Research Library, UCLA.
Palmolive Advertisement 1920, Item No. 6 , Jonathan Friedlander collection of Middle Eastern Americana (Collection 1314). Department of Special Collections, Charles E. Young Research Library, UCLA.
Palmolive Advertisement 1925, Item No. 7, Jonathan Friedlander collection of Middle Eastern Americana (Collection 1314). Department of Special Collections, Charles E. Young Research Library, UCLA.
Peek, Cecilia M. “The Expulsion of Cleopatra VII: Context, Causes, and Chronology.” Ancient Society, vol. 38, 2008, 103–135. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/44080264.
Peek, Cecilia M. “The Queen Surveys Her Realm: The Nile Cruise of Cleopatra VII.” The Classical Quarterly, vol. 61, no. 2, 2011, 595–607. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41301556.
Plutarch. Roman Lives, Roman Lives, Translated by Bernadotte Perrin, Loeb Classical Library, 1920. Print.
Said, Edward W. Orientalism, 2003.
Shakespeare, William. Antony and Cleopatra. Eds. Barbara A. Mowat and Paul Werstine. Folger Shakespeare Library, 2005. https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/download/pdf/Ant.pdf.
Shakespeare, William. Romeo and Juliet, http://learningstorm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/RMEOJLET-1.pdf.
Tyldesley, Joyce. “Cleopatra: Queen of Egypt”. Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encyclopaedia
Britannica, 4 May 1999, https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cleopatra-queen-of-Egypt, accessed 29 May 2019.
Weigall, Arthur. The Life & Times of Cleopatra Queen of Egypt . 2nd ed., Routledge, 1923.
1 Booth, Charlotte. People of Ancient Egypt. Stroud: Tempus, 2006. Print. Pp 256.2 Tyldesley, Joyce. “Cleopatra: Queen of Egypt”. Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encyclopaedia Britannica, 4 May 1999, https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cleopatra-queen-of-Egypt, accessed 29 May 2019.3 Huzar, Eleanor G. “Mark Antony: Marriages vs. Careers”. The Classical Journal, Vol. 81, No. 2 (Dec., 1985 – Jan., 1986), The Classical Association of the Middle West and South, Inc. (CAMWS), 97-111. The author asserts that both Caesar and Cleopatra intended to use each other to gain something out of their relationship.4 Mark, Joshua J. “Cleopatra VII”. Ancient History Encyclopedia. Ancient History Encyclopedia, 30 October 2018, https://www.ancient.eu/Cleopatra_VII/, Accessed 29 April 2019.5 Galenus Claudius. De Theriaca ad Pisonem. Rivista di Storia Delle Scienze, Mediche, e Naturali, v.8, translated by Enrico Coturri and Michele Giuseppe Nardi, Firenze: L. S. Olschki, 1959.6 Dio Cassius. Roman History, translated by Earnest Cary and Herbert B. Foster, Loeb Classical Library, 1914.7 Said, Edward W. Orientalism, 2003, 1.8 Said, Edward W. Orientalism, 2003, 3.9 Plutarch. “Life of Antony, XXVII.” Roman Lives, Translated by Bernadotte Perrin, Loeb Classical Library, 1920.10 Plutarch. “Life of Antony, LIII.” Roman Lives, Translated by Bernadotte Perrin, Loeb Classical Library, 1920.11 Goldsworthy, Adrian. Antony and Cleopatra, Yale University Press, 2010.12 Peek, Cecilia M. “The Expulsion of Cleopatra VII: Context, Causes, and Chronology.” Ancient Society, vol. 38, 2008, 103–135. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/44080264.13 Peek, Cecilia M. “The Queen Surveys her Realm: The Nile Cruise of Cleopatra VII.” The Classical Quarterly, vol. 61, no. 2, 2011, 595–607. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/41301556.14 Weigall, Arthur. The Life & Times of Cleopatra Queen of Egypt. 2nd ed., Routledge, 1923.15 Hamer, Mary. Signs of Cleopatra: History, Politics, Representation. London: Routledge, 1993, 24-25.16 Foreman, Laura. Cleopatra’s Palace: In Search of a Legend. Del Mar, Calif: Discovery Books, 1999, 93.17 Said, Edward W. Orientalism, 2003, 3.18 Booth, Charlotte. People of Ancient Egypt. Stroud: Tempus, 2006, 264.19 Booth, Charlotte. People of Ancient Egypt. Stroud: Tempus, 2006, 265.20 Shakespeare, William. Antony and Cleopatra. Eds. Barbara A. Mowat and Paul Werstine. Folger Shakespeare Library, 2005, 4.15, 1-105, https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/download/pdf/Ant.pdf.21 Shakespeare, William. Antony and Cleopatra. Eds. Barbara A. Mowat and Paul Werstine. Folger Shakespeare Library, 2005, 5.2, 1-437, https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/download/pdf/Ant.pdf.22 Shakespeare, William. Romeo and Juliet. 5.3, http://learningstorm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/RMEOJLET-1.pdf.23 Booth, Charlotte. People of Ancient Egypt. Stroud: Tempus, 2006, 265.24 Astrotema. Cleopatra (1963 ) Elizabeth Taylor Entrance into Rome Scene (HD). YouTube, YouTube, 3 June 2018, www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB5Wv8IHVf0&t=1s. (00:00-03:36).25 EgyptStore. Cleopatra Part 3 1963. YouTube, YouTube, 21 Jan. 2010, www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sj6GKZBnP0&t=162s. (02:20-02:36).26 Knippschild, Silke and Morcillo M. García. Seduction and Power: Antiquity in the Visual and Performing Arts, 2015, 192.27 Cleopatra’s Barge, Caesars Palace, Web. Accessed 5 June 2019. https://www.caesars.com/caesars-palace/things-to-do/cleopatras-barge#.XPh51C2ZPMI.28 Palmolive Advertisement 1917, Item No. 11, Jonathan Friedlander collection of Middle Eastern Americana (Collection 1314). Department of Special Collections, Charles E. Young Research Library, UCLA; Palmolive Advertisement 1920, Item No. 6 , Jonathan Friedlander collection of Middle Eastern Americana (Collection 1314). Department of Special Collections, Charles E. Young Research Library, UCLA; Palmolive Advertisement 1925, Item No. 7, Jonathan Friedlander collection of Middle Eastern Americana (Collection 1314). Department of Special Collections, Charles E. Young Research Library, UCLA.
This podcast goes over how the Sphinx changes over time. It originated in Egypt as a guardian figure representative of the pharaoh. Over time and through societies, the image and meaning of the Sphinx morphs. The original meaning of the Sphinx from Egyptian culture is not how the world views the Sphinx today. The modern take on the Sphinx can be seen as an erasure of Egyptian culture or as a connection between our world and theirs.
Also featuring: Maryan Ragheb, PhD Candidate UCLA Transcript Section 1: Introduction (0:00) NAOMI: Welcome to Season One, Episode One, of our brand new podcast series, Now as Then. We are so excited to start off this new adventure through time with you! In our very first episode we are going to be talking about one of the most famous symbols of Ancient Egypt: the sphinx.
NITYA: The Sphinx stands guard at the pyramids with the head of a human and the body of a lion. It has made many appearances in modern culture from the 2016 movie Gods of Egypt, to the The Adventures of Puss and Boots, to my personal favorite, the book series, Percy Jackson and the Olympians. But these modern iterations are not quite the same as the original sphinx from Ancient Egypt.
NAOMI: Over time, the purpose of the sphinx has changed from society to society. It has been given a brand new image and even new meanings. The way we think about the sphinx now is not at all related to the original purpose it was given. So, how did the sphinx travel this far and how did it change along the way? Ask yourself, how did these adaptations almost entirely erase the original meaning of the Sphinx? Why did the Sphinx change?
CAT: Hi, I’m Cat.
NITYA: I’m Nitya.
STEVEN: Hi, I’m Steven.
NAOMI: I’m Naomi, and welcome to Now as Then, “The Time Traveling Sphinx.”
Section 2: Special Collections (1:08) CAT: So we are here in UCLA Special Collections inside the Young Research Library looking at a photo album by Antonio Beato, a British-Italian photographer who was really into Egypt. This album is from 1887.1
STEVEN: There’s a picture in here of the Great Sphinx in front of what I think is Khafre’s pyramid.2 There are a few guys standing in front of it to show just how big it is, like your typical tourist photo. In fact the people have already cleaned the sand around the sphinx to make it appear from the desert. But they haven’t yet built those things which prevent it from being submerged by sand again like you see today.
NAOMI: Wait did you guys notice how the pictures were taken from two different angles?
CAT: Oh!
NAOMI: So one’s from the left side of the Sphinx and one’s from the right. So the pyramids in the background are probably actually two different pyramids.
CAT: So we know that this one from the front on angle is the pyramid of Khafre. What’s the other one then?3
NAOMI: That’s a good question.
NITYA: I know that both of these exact angles are on the travel tips page for USA Today for the Sphinx and for tours of the Sphinx, so this is the tourist angle of the Sphinx.4
NAOMI: Also if you look really closely at the picture you can see people climbing up the nemes which is the headdress of the pharaohs on the sphinx. They are climbing up on this ancient monument, which is crazy because today you’d think that you could never do that. The sphinx is untouchable because it’s so protected by the government.5
NITYA: This just goes to show that fascination with the sphinx is timeless. Whether it’s 2019 or a 132 years ago in 1887, people really thought the sphinx was cool and people wanted to capture that.
Section 3: Ancient Egypt (3:12) NITYA: So where do we start?
NAOMI: Alright, we’re gonna start from the beginning: In Mesopotamia. I know, what does that have to do with Egypt? But trust me, it’s relevant. Mesopotamia was the very first place that a half human and half animal creature appeared. And of course Mesopotamia was nearby Egypt so they traded goods and ideas and so, Egypt creates their own composite creature, the Sphinx. The first time the Sphinx appeared in history was during the rule of King Djedefre.6 Now, he is from the 4th dynasty of Egypt during the Old Kingdom, around 2500 BCE. His father was King Khufu, who was the builder of the great pyramid at Giza. During Djedefre’s reign we find a sphinx statue of who we think is queen Hetepheres II, who is Djedefre’s sister but also his wife. Then, his brother, Khafre, became king after he died and that is where the much more well known Great Sphinx of Giza comes in.
NITYA: So where exactly is the Sphinx?
NAOMI: Okay, so the Great Sphinx was carved into the rock near Khafre’s pyramid, which is in Giza with all the other great pyramids, and they’re all located about 5 miles from Cairo. Also, just to give you some dimensions: this thing is massive, like just try to imagine this. The body is 240 ft long and 66 ft tall. Its eyes themselves are 6 1/2 ft tall.7
NITYA:Dude, I’m like 5’3”, so the eye itself is taller than me.
NAOMI: Yeah, exactly, like its gigantic. It’s the largest stone statue ever created by man, which is why it stands as such a huge symbol of Egypt.
NITYA:So, can you tell me anything about the origin of the word, Sphinx?
NAOMI: Okay yeah so when I was looking into these origins, oddly enough I found two answers. So they say that the Greeks got the name, Sphinx, from the Greek word “sphingein” which means to strangle. 8However, the Egyptians also got their word Sphinx from their word “Ssp anx” which means living image.9 Now, living image relates to the purpose behind the image the Egyptians gave the Sphinx. This purpose goes pretty deep. The image of the sphinx was created to embody all three aspects of the Egyptian Pharaoh. The body was a lion, which represents the sun and strength. This also symbolizes Ra, who is the sun god and the supreme god. He is the restorer of Ma’at, which means order, which was a very important matter to Egyptians. Horus and the pharaoh ruled together, like they were one person. They were the link between the gods and the people. Since they acted as one, they were both represented by the head. The Sphinx was an image of strength from the lion but also intelligence from the head of the Pharaoh.10
NITYA: So I’ve heard that sphinxes were a type of guardian figure. So what exactly were they guarding?
NAOMI: Oh yeah, so sphinxes were very often placed outside of temples and tombs to ya know, guard the person’s possessions, so they would have those with them as they went into the afterlife. The Great Sphinx guards King Khafre’s tomb. Another example would be Sphinx Alley. It’s a two mile path lined by sphinx statues that connects the Luxor and Karnak temples.11
NITYA: Did the sphinx have any other purpose?
NAOMI: Yeah, actually, as we move into the middle kingdom, we see the sphinx aiding the pharaoh in battle, and this is depicted on many, uh, tomb walls and even some Egyptian palettes.12
NITYA:Didn’t the sphinx also kinda resemble the pharaohs?
NAOMI: Yeah exactly, so the head of the Sphinx was really made to look exactly like the pharaoh. He even wore the nemes, which is the headdress of pharaohs. King Amenemhat III from the Middle Kingdom added a mane and feline features to his sphinx heads to resemble the face of a lion. He presented himself this way to show how he was the protector and the guardian of Egypt.13 The sphinxes of Queen Hatshepsut from the New Kingdom had female features, obviously.
NITYA : Cause she was a queen?
NAOMI: Yeah, and then in the New Kingdom, the sphinxes of Amun had the head of a ram, since this was his symbol. Amun was the god of the sky, and in New Kingdom, the Egyptians merged him with Ra, creating Amun-Ra. And this was their new like supreme god. Since his symbol was a ram and Ra’s was a lion, they created the ram headed lion, the Sphinx.14 Today, many of these ancient sphinxes are housed in museums, which is a whole other problem were gonna get in to later. Anyway, you can find the sphinxes of Hatshepsut and Amenemhet III at the Met[ropolitan Museum of Art in New York]. Also, the nose of the Great Sphinx is no longer attached but is currently housed in the British Museum. Some say it fell off due to weathering and vandalism, but also it’s rumored that Napoleon shot it off during his conquest.
Section 4: Interview (7:41) NAOMI: We spoke to Maryan, a PhD Student in the Near Eastern Language and Cultures Department at UCLA for some more information on the sphinx.
NAOMI: So can we just start off with you telling us a little bit about yourself?
MARYAN: My name is Maryan Ragheb. I’m from Egypt. I had my B.A. in Egyptology and Business Administration and then I had my M.A. in Egyptology. I worked for two years with Zahi Hawass as a research assistant and I worked on multiple digs in Luxor, Aswan, and Saqqara.
NAOMI: And I think I read somewhere that you were born in Egypt.
MARYAN: Yep.
NAOMI: So how much time have you spent there?
MARYAN: In Egypt?
NAOMI: Yeah.
MARYAN: I’ve lived there my whole life. I only came here in September.
NAOMI: Oh really? That’s so cool! So what are you working on right now?
MARYAN: I’m working on workshop production. So I’m looking at beads in pre-dynastic Egypt. How were the beads produced and what does that add to its value and its meaning and how they were consumed and then discarded and so on. Looking at the life history of beads.
NAOMI: And what got you into Egyptology from the start? Why Egypt?
MARYAN: That’s a tough question because it didn’t happen in a single moment. I know I’ve always loved history and I definitely remember my visit to the museum and Luxor even before I started the program. So I think these two visits kind of left an impression. Good impression.
NAOMI: Let’s get started with the Sphinx. When did you first see it appear in Egypt and what were its main meanings, significance?
MARYAN: I think, the first sphinx statues came about in Dynasty 4 of the Old Kingdom. Specifically, around the reign of Djedefre. So there is a sphinx statue of a queen who we think is Hetepheres II. She was a daughter of Khufu. So it seems that by the time of Djedefre and then afterwards Khafre, there is some sort of really strong association and the solar cult became prominent during that time. And that’s when the sphinx statues also happen to appear for the first time. So there’s a certain connotation between the sphinx statues and the solar cult. The sphinx was some sort of embodiment of the sun or Ra. In later texts, we know that the Great Sphinx in Giza was called Horemakhet, which means Horus in the horizon. And actually if you look at it from a certain perspective at a certain time of the day, you actually see the Sphinx between the pyramids of Khufu and Khafre so it’s like two horizons and he is rising in between. So, I think there is certain emphasis on how the sphinx is the sun. There’s a temple in front of the Great Sphinx in Egypt and during the 26th dynasty which is the later period, 600 something BC, the sphinx apparently becomes associated with the god Horun which is a Levantine god, it’s not an Egyptian god, but also related to Horus, the sun. We see these kind of statues carry on since the Old Kingdom, since the reign of Djedefre, all the way until Greco-Roman.
NAOMI: I’ve heard a lot of different opinions or theories on who built the Great Sphinx. What’s your opinion?
MARYAN: Well the consensus seems to be that it’s Khafre’s statue.
NAOMI: Because it’s in front of his pyramid?
MARYAN: Yeah. We’re not really sure, but according to the features of the face, it seems to be Khafre. Especially since we don’t have a lot of statues for Khufu. So we can’t really compare
NAOMI: And you just mentioned the Levant. What was Egypt’s relationship with the Levant.
MARYAN: Since the Predynastic period and Early Dynastic period, there has been strong relations with the Levant, mostly trade and exchange. In Egypt, you find, in the Early Dynastic period what we call cylinder seals. This is something that’s not native to Egypt, this has come not from the Levant, from like Iraq. And also the idea of a griffon which is very much related to the sphinx because a griffon is a composite creature. So, composite creatures first appear in Mesopotamia. As a griffon for example and other composite creatures and they first appeared on these cylinder seals. So, by the time we find states coming into play and then there’s trade relations and goods are being exchanged, we find these cylinder seals as a sort of state control over production and exchange of goods. And with it you find composite creatures and then you find composite creatures spreading from Mesopotamia to almost everywhere.
NAOMI: So that’s where their idea of the half animal half man came from.
MARYAN: Yeah, exactly.
NAOMI: And then what about Ancient Greece? What was the relationship with them as well?
MARYAN: I think the first evidence of relationships between Egypt and the Aegean in general, is probably during the Second Intermediate Period and the beginning of the New Kingdom. That’s when in Tell el-Dab’a, which is a site in Northern Egypt, there’s a palace supposedly belonging to the Hyksos dynasty. And there are paintings in this palace that very much in iconography resemble Minoan paintings and Minoan motifs. So that’s an influence. Pottery and trade in products and wine for example could have happened earlier and probably through the Levant. Because in the Levant, especially the coastal areas by, I can’t pinpoint a specific date, but they were very much active in terms of seafaring trade. So they would be very much in contact with the Aegean and most of the products that would come to Egypt would be through the Levant. Then, by the New Kingdom, you start seeing texts and tombs, a lot of references to people and ethnic groups that we think come from whole Aegean area, Crete and Cyprus and other areas.And then there’s also the Sea Peoples coming in. It starts late in Egypt’s history. It starts in the New Kingdom, but there’s definitely evidence for it.
NAOMI: Why do you think the meaning of the sphinx changed as we moved into Greek culture? Was it based on their view of Egypt?
MARYAN: It’s hard to tell. I mean, the Greeks, when they adopted certain aspects of Egyptian culture, they were very selective. They picked the motifs or parts of the ancient Egyptian religion that would fit their own belief system, so Isis for example became very prominent. I don’t know how they thought of the sphinx. I’m sure they were very familiar with the idea of composite creatures because of their relation with the Levant and Mesopotamia. Whether they thought the sphinx was something evil, it’s hard to tell, but it seems to be associated, in their culture, with evil women and vengeance.
NAOMI: The modern view of the sphinx is most closely related to the Greek perspective, so why do you think we hold that perspective instead of the Egyptian meaning of the Sphinx.
MARYAN: I think it’s because the idea of how the sphinx is related to the sun god got kind of lost in the process. No one really realizes this connection anymore. Perhaps for the early Greek visitors or merchants, the sphinx was something they feared because if they came across the Great Sphinx it’s a pretty big statue and they probably associated it with guarding something and probably even warding off evil. Perhaps it was fearful for them and that’s what got carried on because the Greek culture is one of the major influencers for the Renaissance in Europe so maybe that’s the idea that became propagated and carried on into modern times.
NAOMI: Having spent most of your life in Egypt, do you make any connections between your own experiences in Egypt and your work?
MARYAN: Yes. So, when I study Ancient Egyptian culture, there are a lot of things, a lot of things, in the culture that kind of carried on until today in our practices.
NAOMI: Like what?
MARYAN: Just like some sayings, colloquial sayings in the language. Some actual words from Ancient Egyptian carries on into our modern language. Practices, for example, there is this idea of ‘Sebou’ or a celebration after seven days of the a birth of a baby and they would celebrate and start choosing the name after the seven days. And during that celebration, they would do certain things like putting him in a sieve and kind of shaking the baby. They do that. So a lot of these things seem to be very traditional and a lot of it appears in Ancient Egypt as well. Also, when you look at the letters, the way the people talk and the way they think is very much similar to modern Egyptians.
Unfortunately, a lot of Egyptians nowadays don’t realize that link. They think the Ancient Egyptians were some sort of distant race that became wiped out and then Modern Egyptians came. I don’t know how they think of it this way. Unfortunately, there is no connection with the past for a lot of Egyptians. But for me, I find that it’s one of the things that makes me proud, being Egyptian. It’s that history and that culture, the good and the bad in it.
NAOMI: Is this connection part of the reason why you got into Egyptology.
MARYAN: Yeah. Definitely. It’s one of the reasons why I continue doing my M.A. and PhD in Egyptology.
NAOMI: We also read in your profile that you go on excavations or you’ve been on some. Could you tell us a little bit about those and maybe some of the coolest things you found or the weirdest things?
MARYAN: The first coolest thing I’ve ever found was, we were in Luxor. We were excavating in a court in front of a tomb. There was a side chamber in the wall of the court and it was full of rubble. So we would just photograph, draw, crawl in, photograph, draw, and then remove a layer, and then go in again. One day I was inside, brushing off the surface so we can do our drawings and take the photographs. And then I felt something kind of moving underneath me, I didn’t think much of it. Next day, when we removed that layer, turns out I was sitting on top of a coffin lid. I’m just so glad that it didn’t break! So that’s what was wobbly.
NAOMI: Wow, that’s so cool!
MARYAN: That was the coolest thing. Also when I was in Saqqara, but unfortunately I wasn’t there when they excavated it, but I saw it in storage, there’s this small vessel. Once you open it, the smell of the perfume that was inside it’s still very much there.
NAOMI: Oh wow that was there for a long time.
MARYAN: That was so freaky to me, I did not believe that this could happen.
NAOMI: I think that’s everything thank you so much for coming and doing this for us.
MARYAN: Thank you guys. I hope my answers were useful.
NAOMI: Yeah it was so interesting.
Section 5: Ancient Greece to the 1500s (22:08) NAOMI: So basically that’s the extent of what I know about the Sphinx, but where did it go from Ancient Egypt?
NITYA: Let’s talk about where the sphinx was going from Ancient Greece to the 1500s. The characteristics of modern versions of the Sphinx are closest to what the Greeks had in their version. Like Maryan said, the Levant was an established connection between Greece and Egypt, but there were also many seafaring travelers. Both of these are ways that Egyptian culture, including the sphinx, probably arrived in Greece.
NAOMI: When you say Greek sphinx are you talking about the Oedipus story?
NITYA: That’s definitely the most famous version. Sophocles play, “Oedipus the King” has a scene where the sphinx is the tyrannical ruler of Thebes and to enter Thebes, Oedipus must answer her riddle.15 There’s also Hesiod’s Theogony, where the Sphinx is a daughter of Orthrus and Chimera.16 In Greece, the sphinx is a destructive force. It’s hard to say which of these came first because they were probably stories told orally before they were written down, but both of these say the sphinx is female and every other Greek and Roman version of the sphinx is also a female destructive force.
NAOMI: In Ancient Egypt, they had male and female sphinxes, is that true for Greece too?
NITYA: This is definitely a change that happens when we get to Greece. In Greece, the sphinx is a female character that appears in many stories. She’s still a protector but she’s definitely the bad guy. She’s also one single character appears in many different stories. Part of what Maryan told us was that aspects of Egyptian culture were adopted into what fit with Greek culture and mythology that already existed. Maybe an explanation for the sphinx being a woman is her role
as Oedipus’s opposition. It would make sense that the binary opposition of good and evil that Oedipus represents mirrors the opposition of male and female.17
NAOMI: Are these myths the only mentions of the sphinx in Greece?
NITYA: Greek and Roman mythology have the same sphinx character mentioned by Hesiod and Sophocles. There are also many works of art that include the sphinx, but it doesn’t quite look like the Great Sphinx in Egypt.18 The Greek and Roman sphinx has wings and sometimes has the head of a bird.19 These depictions are mostly based on Theogony and Oedipus the King. Greek and Roman historians don’t really mention the Great Sphinx, although Pliny the Elder is an exception.20 He is a Roman historian who said that the Great Sphinx was a “wondrous object of art.”21
NAOMI: So how come he’s the only one who talks about the sphinx. Wouldn’t travelers of that time have visited the pyramids and seen it?
NITYA: Well, in the modern day, the sand around the sphinx is dug out so it is always visible, but in reality, the sands would cover up the sphinx and uncover it in a kind of cycle.22
NAOMI: What about after Rome? Did Europe care about the sphinx?
NITYA: Well let’s look at the middle ages. This is Europe from the 5th century CE to the Renaissance. With the rise of Christianity, sphinx imagery was adopted into religious art much like how the Greeks did with Egypt. This sphinx also has wings, but the Bible doesn’t actually mention the Great Sphinx at all, so it’s likely that the sphinx in Christian art is just from Rome.23 Basically all of the instances we have of the sphinx during medieval Europe come from the church.
NAOMI: Wait so we only have Christian sources?
NITYA: The Middle Ages weren’t exactly a good time for Europe so most of our lasting written records and preserved art is whatever was protected by the Church. So while the Sphinx had a role in Greek religion, it didn’t actually serve a purpose in Christianity other than in art. If we turn to parts of the world where Islam was the primary religion during this time, we have a lot more information. Islam’s golden age was from the 8th century to the 14th century CE, so we have way more art and information from areas like what is now Israel, Iraq, and Iran. The Sphinx was a pretty common motif in Islamic art.24
NAOMI: How different was their sphinx from the Greco-Roman sphinx?
NITYA: Well it still had the wings like in Greece, but it’s symbolic value was almost completely different. This sphinx was a positive and protective figure that could be masculine or feminine. From this region, a lot of the sphinx art was on pottery. Like what Maryan mentioned about the Egyptian Sphinx, the Sphinx in Islamic art was a solar figure with references to astrology and the zodiac.25 This region’s geographic location and it’s sphinx’s characteristics indicate that it’s probably a version directly derived from Ancient Egypt, especially if you consider the strong relationships between the Levant and Ancient Egypt.
As we can see, the Sphinx changed both physically and in its symbolic characteristics over time as it moved around the world. In Greece it became a tyrannical riddler figure with wings. In the middle ages in Europe, the symbol persisted in art, though it appears less frequently. In Islamic art, we see the sphinx’s wings again, but it’s non-physical characteristics are closer to the sphinx of Egypt. We can still see hints of the original Egyptian sphinx. Each version mentioned is of course, generalizations about the sphinxes of each period. Within time periods and regions there are many nuanced differences between individual depictions, but the versions we talk about are fairly representative to their respective culture. In all of these versions, the composite figure of the human head and lion body are common, but almost all other aspects have changed. Each culture imported this symbol of power, but arranged its features to meet their individual needs.
Section 6: The Renaissance to Napoleon (27:38) CAT: Now, moving further on into time, we can trace the Sphinx from the ancient times slowly into more modern ages. We’re talking the European Renaissance, Napoleon, and the English and French rivalries.
NITYA: There were sphinxes even in the European Renaissance?
CAT: Sure! Although they were more Greek than Egyptian, there certainly were many sphinxes throughout the Renaissance. Artists seemed to enjoy replicating the Greek sphinx, even adding discolorations and cracks to archaize their work. For example, there’s one small marble relief in a museum in Vienna that depicts a ruler on a sphinx throne, with some deliberate weathering and fractures.26
NITYA: Isn’t it strange how they replicated the Greek sphinx, though? Why not the Egyptian one as well?
CAT: This gets into our main discussion of how the Sphinx changed throughout time! Those in the Renaissance were really fascinated with classical culture, digging up Greek sphinxes and replicating them. They probably didn’t even know they were Egyptian.
NITYA: Wow, it really puts into perspective how long Egypt has existed. I mean, even Herodotus, one of the first documented travelers to Egypt, is 1500 years removed from the Old Kingdom.27 He supposedly visited Egypt around the Twenty-Seventh dynasty, which is the Late Period.
CAT: So you can see how the European Renaissance was even further away from the first sphinxes.
NITYA: Earlier you also mentioned Napoleon! I know he campaigned in Egypt and tried to document every possible part of Egypt, but what did he have to do with the Sphinx specifically?
CAT: Have you heard of the Sphinx’s missing nose?
NITYA: Yeah, the face on the Great Sphinx of Giza doesn’t have a nose, right?
CAT: Supposedly, Napoleon is the one that shot the nose off with cannons while campaigning in Egypt.
NITYA: Wait, really?
CAT: No, that’s just a rumor. In reality, Napoleon caused the revitalization of interest in Egypt from Europeans.
NITYA: This begins the discussion of Orientalism, right? I know that foreign powers decided to take artifacts out of Egypt, either legally or illegally, without really consulting the Egyptians themselves.
CAT: The Europeans began to study Egypt but neglected to truly attempt to understand them through the native perspective, instead imposing a Eurocentric view over them, tainting all early research we have now with super racist stuff. Just think about how there are sphinxes in museums around the world like the Met. Many artifacts, like cylinder seals, ivories, and other stone statues with sphinxes depicted on them, now reside in European museums.28 Should these artifacts be returned?
NITYA: I don’t know, that’s a difficult question. Who does Ancient Egypt belong to? Does the past belong to anyone?
CAT: The field of Egyptology is still very Eurocentric. Although this discussion applies to all of Egyptian culture, we can discuss this specifically in regards to the Sphinx as well. Sometimes, whether these artifacts were acquired legally or not is unclear. These are issues that I think can continue to be discussed as we move forward through time.
CAT: While the question of who the past belongs to is probably impossible to answer, what matters is that we treat cultures of the past with respect as we continue to learn about them.
Section 7: Modern Sphinxes (30:39) STEVEN: I really agree with the point that the Sphinx people know today is mostly Greek Sphinx instead of Egyptian ones. It is really just a subject which has some very specific meanings, and people who use it may only use one of its symbolism.
NAOMI: Like what?
STEVEN: Well, this actually mainly dates back to the Oedipus myth, and many scholars like to analyze that myth. If you know something about structuralist approach, you must have heard of the big name Levi-Strauss. He said that the riddle of the sphinx in this mythical context cannot be provided with an answer, and that the hero is destined to kill the sphinx to complete his journey.29
NAOMI: This sounds like the description of heroes slaughtering a dragon.
STEVEN: Yes, exactly. A hero’s guessing a riddle is almost guaranteed when encountering a Sphinx just as that a dragon is to be slaughtered, a western dragon of course.
NAOMI: Yeah, I do remember that in the novel Goblets of Fire, Harry Potter had to answer a riddle, of the Sphinx, to get into the inner part of the maze.
STEVEN: Good point, and that brings about another point that I have observed about modern sphinx, and I think this almost happens in every case Great Sphinx has changed along time. The sphinx riddle is to be answered. Do you remember the Sphinx riddle? I’d like to repeat it. It goes
like this: “First think of the person who lives in disguise, who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies. Next, tell me what’s always the last thing to mend, The middle of middle and end of the end? And finally give me the sound often heard during the search for a hard-to-find word. Now string them together, and answer me this, which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?” 30 There is not much Egyptian elements in this riddle, though, but the answer was spider anyway, And she broke the answer into three parts and whenever Harry got one part right she began smiling to Harry which kind of is giving her away.
NAOMI: And I like that Sphinx in the second episode of The Adventures of Puss in Boots. She didn’t eat the cat after three wrong answers, and later she gave away the guarded treasure because she failed to find a riddle Puss could guess it right.31
STEVEN: Yes, riddle guessing is almost equivalent to Sphinx in this context, and people like to play around that. People just like to appeal to it for their own sake, but not actually referring to the true Egyptian myth. Another symbolic characteristic of the Egyptian Sphinx is the guardian of mysterious civilization. And this time, even though people are talking about the Great Sphinx people still just use whatever evidence they want to support an argument– I have to say I might be doing the same thing now.
NAOMI: What are you referring to?
STEVEN: I mean that sphinx gives people a sense of mystery, so that people may be open to any wild arguments. For example, aliens. I used to be very interested in this subject, and I advise you to check out a book called Architects of the Underworld: Unriddling Atlantis, Anomalies of Mars, and the Mystery of the Sphinx.32
NAOMI: What are those books about?
STEVEN: This is a book discussing those magnificent achievements of the ancient civilizations as might be helped by ancient aliens. It uses all kinds of evidence and relates with the sphinx in suggesting that the redating of the sphinx, it might be extremely old, and associates it with another civilization Atlantis. This is supported by supposed archaeological discoveries that Egyptians used materials, the stone which built the pyramids and the Sphinx was not rich in the natural environment.
NAOMI: Wasn’t the sphinx actually built with limestone which was readily available in the area?
STEVEN: True, but this was how that book built his argument, it’s not my fault to represent it. Its just to show that sometimes scholars assume weird facts to show their arguments. Well, the author then proposed that the natural material was actually rich in America, one of the possible places where it might have been Atlantis, and he later deduced that trade may happen between those two civilizations.
NAOMI:True, people really just use the sphinx to justify their own opinions in this case.
Section 8: Conclusion (35:18) NITYA: So what’s up with the sphinxes in museums. Are they in museums in Egypt?
NAOMI: There are many Ancient Egyptian artifacts, sphinxes included, in museums in Egypt, but there are many more in other museums around the world. The question is where do these artifacts really belong? I mean, if they’re from Ancient Egypt, then shouldn’t the Egyptians have rights to them? Or do they belong to those who found them?
STEVEN: So who owns the past? Also, as we have seen, the sphinx has changed significantly over time, is this okay?
NITYA: These are all difficult questions. Almost everything about the sphinx we see today is different from what the Ancient Egyptians knew. The image, purpose, and symbolic meaning of the Sphinx changed over time and between societies. On one hand, it seems like erasure of Ancient Egyptian culture. All of these cultures took the symbol and aesthetic of the sphinx and changed other aspects to whatever they wanted.
CAT: On the other hand, seeing the sphinx in the modern day helps connect us to the past and creates interest in Egypt and history. Whether this is through movies, or visiting museums. Our look at the past is just an exploration of who we are as human beings.
NITYA: Just like how each iteration of the sphinx tells us what was important to each culture, our own versions of the sphinx and the way we look at Ancient Egypt tells us about what is important to us.
STEVEN: Whatever your opinion is on the matter, thank you for listening to this episode of Now as Then. We hope you enjoyed learning about the sphinx with us.
NAOMI: Special thanks to Courtney Jacobs and Simon Lee at the UCLA Library for help with research and access to special collections, Deirdre Whitmore from the Digital Archaeology Lab and Tom Garbelotti at HumTech for helping us with the equipment, UCLA studio 22 for providing recording spaces, Dr. Elizabeth Carter for providing us with helpful background information, Maryan Ragheb for giving us her time and knowledge,
NITYA: My roommate Brittney for translating french sources and Robyn Price our awesome instructor for her hours and hours of work that made this podcast possible.
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1 Beato, Photograph album of antiquities of Egypt.2 Beato, Pyramid of Khafra and Sphinx3 Beato, Pyramid of Khufu. The picture is of Khufu’s pyramid.4 Freeman, USA Today Travel Tips Page.5 Refer to Hawass, “Can The Sphinx Be Saved?” for more information on digging the sand around the Great Sphinx.6 Hesham Ezz Eldin, D. Sphinxes of King Amenemhat III. Winston, Allen. Tour Egypt.7 Editors, History.com. The Sphinx.8 Britannica, The Editors of Encyclopaedia. Sphinx.9 Bassir, Hussein. The great sphinx at Giza.10 Suhr, Elmer G. The Sphinx, 98.11 Editors, History.com. The Sphinx.12 Suhr, Elmer G. The Sphinx, 98.13 Refer to Hesham Ezz Eldin, D. Sphinxes of King Amenemhat III for more information on the sphinxes of King Amenemhat III.14 Refer to Amun | King of the Egyptian Gods for more information on King Amun sphinxes.15 Sophocles 61. The priest describes the Sphinx while thanking Oedipus.16 Hesiod Line 325-340 mentions the lineage of the sphinx in Greek mythology.17 Renger 15 talks about Oedipus facing the sphinx.18 Swetnam-Burlan 440 shows an example of Roman depictions of the Sphinx.19 Hassan 125 describes the changes from the Egyptian to the Greek sphinx.20 Fritze 90 talks about many Greco-Roman historians’ lack of texts about the Great Sphinx.21 Pliny the Elder 1. This whole chapter is about Egypt, specifically the pyramids and the Great Sphinx.22 Fritze 90 mentions periodic burial of the Great Sphinx may be a reason for the lack of texts. Hawass, “Can The Sphinx Be Saved?” mentions modern efforts to keep the Great Sphinx uncovered.23 Granacki and Williams, The Mosaic at the Otranto Cathedral in Italy is an example of medieval art containing sphinxes and other composite figures.24 Gonnella 116 briefly mentions sphinxes as part of common motifs in Islamic art.25 Bernus-Taylor 138-141 describes this imagery and contains many different images of Islamic artwork containing sphinxes.26 Chase, George H. “A Greek Bronze Sphinx”- There is a photo of this sphinx in this book at the Kunsthistorisches Museum with some descriptions.27 https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/late/28 Thanks to Dr. Elizabeth Carter for providing us with this information!29 Calogeras, Roy. 1994. “Lévi-Strauss and Freud: Their “Structural” Approaches to Myths” American Imago, Vol. 30, No. 1 New York: The Johns Hopkins University Press 57-79.30 Rowling, J.K.. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. New York: Scholastic, 2000.31 Lueras, Lane, dir., The Adventures of Puss in Boots, Season 1, episode 2, “The Sphinx,” Aired January 16, 2015 on IMDb.32 Rux, Bruce. Architects of the Underworld: Unriddling Atlantis, Anomalies of Mars, and the Mystery of the Sphinx. Berkeley: Frog, ltd, 1996.